Welcome to part two of our conversation with John Fugelsang where we look at Christian nationalism in the United States and conclude that for Christians the teaching of Jesus should carry more weight than the letters of the Apostle Paul. This gives us a fresh vision of a path in which Jesus 2 commandments should be our guiding light to love God and our neighbors as ourselves. Welcome to Deep Self, Society, Spirit Life enhancing paradigm rattling conversations with cutting ed thinkers, contemplatives and activists with Dr. Roger Walsh and John Dupuy.

You know, I believe that fundamentalist Christians have more in common with fundamentalist Muslims than they have in common with moderate and liberal Christians. Fundamentalism is its own island at this point and I list a few criteria in the book that I kind of feel bridge all of them. Fundamentalism. No matter the religion, women are always second class citizens. The more to the right your religion is, the more God made 51% of the population just a little bit inferior to 49%. Right? I mean every religion, the more extreme conservative, the more it's no knob, no job, God just likes men more. The sex hangups. The more to the right your religion is, the more you'll find these women having sex, gay people having sex. The more to the right your religion is, the more people believe violence is okay if my side does it because you're against God and I'm for him so God will give me a pass on all that shout not kills kind of stuff. I find the more fundamentalist a religion is, there is always a focus on punishment over healing. It's all authoritarian. And finally this. The more to the right any religion is, the more there's this victimhood complex, this persecution narrative that will justify any bad deeds that I do because of something that was done previously to other people like me. And those five traits together unite right wing Judaism, right wing Muslims, right wing Hindus, right wing Christians. And it's why in the 21st century, more and more young people are getting turned off to spirituality. The greatest tragedy to me is when people think that that's religion and don't realize that's just for fundamentalism. And there's plenty of beautiful Muslims and Jews and Christians and Hindus out there that are totally groovy that you can forge coalitions with to make the world better.

Yeah, and it's such a so beautiful that you pulled out those common features of fundamentalism across traditions. And I love you saying that the fundamentalists of one religion are more like the fundamentalists of others than they are. We'll say they're more contemplative companions in their own tradition. Because there's also a saying that says the mystics of one tradition are more like the mystics of other traditions than they are with the conventionals of their own. So it's like these different levels share common features.

Yes.

And I love what you pulled out about that. And I just want to give the name of your book again. Partly because I like trying to say

it, partly you say it faster than most interviewers do.

The Separation of Church and Hate. Saving the Bible from Fundamentalists. Well, wait on.

From A Sane Person's Guide.

A Sane Person's Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists and Flock Leasing Frauds.

Woo.

Got through it. Anyway.

It's a lot of F words in this book. A lot of F words.

Yes, there are. Let's see. John Dupuis, did you want to. I've been talking about. Did you want to jump in?

Yeah, I just. I don't have to say a lot. You're saying it so well. And you too, Roger, by the way.

John, I love that you have The Fabs and Dr. King side by side behind you. It's great to see. Yeah.

My heroes.

Yeah. The Holy Trinity in my house growing up was for My father was Dr. King, Gandhi and Dorothy Day. That was pretty much who my dad prayed to. I was the one who prayed to the Beatles.

Yeah.

This picture was taken in the airport when he arrived in Birmingham and he was killed the next day.

Yeah.

So this is a one off photograph.

I think he killed in Memphis.

I think when I said Birmingham. No, I'm sorry, you're right.

Right on.

Yeah. So this is one of the last pictures close.

It's beautiful.

You can just. I mean, he knew he was going to get killed. You know, he knew it. He kept on and.

And we don't even like we there. There's a great film called King in the Wilderness because we don't teach people how deeply unpopular he was at the time of his death. Just like Jesus, you know, Jesus shows up on Palm Sunday and they're hailing him and worshiping him. Then he's got the incident in the temple and then by Thursday he's arrested and by Friday, the people who welcomed him on Sunday are cheering for his death. It's a gorgeous metaphor in that story. And. And Jesus was very much alone. His best friend sold him out. Only the women didn't abandon him. And Dr. King was deeply unpopular by the time he died. And to me, that's so much about what the Christian faith is meant to be that even when it's unpopular, Jesus doesn't say that. You know, it's supposed to be easy being a Christian and you're supposed to be on top. He says it's going to be hard. You have to pick up your cross and follow me every day. When Jesus says I came to bring a sword, he's not talking about literal bloodshed with weapons. He's saying that if you're going to pick up this movement and care for the marginalized and walk my path, it's going to cost you something. There's going to be people who hate you for taking the side of the less fortunate. And we see that's true right now. Every generation, they find a new way to smear. Being the kind of person Jesus tells us to do. When I was a kid, it was bleeding heart. Oh, you bleeding heart, Lou? Like, like, like Jesus. Like that. Okay, you're making that an epithet. And then it was politically correct. Well, I just want to use language so I'm nicer and not a complete dick to people. Oh, you're politically correct, but I'm trying to be kinder. And then it was social justice warrior. You know, that's a slur. And I'm like, so like Jesus, like Dr. King. And then it was your virtue signaling. I'm like, no, I'm vice mocking. Like Jesus's virtue signaling on the mount. Like anytime you talk about empathy and love, every decade they find a new way to smear that. And this decade, that word is woke. A word that used to mean, you know, awareness of structural racism used by anti racists, and now it's a word used by racists to smear anti discrimination laws and policies. I tell you, like these, the loudest people who boast of their Christianity, they always find new ways to smear love and empathy and caring for others. And it's a hard road to hoe, man. It's not supposed to be easy. But that's the beauty of the scripture. That's the beauty of the story.

That's very interesting, John. I never appreciated that the very virtues or descriptions of really valuable virtues have been demeaned successively across generations.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and, and again, that's why I wanted to write this book for people of all ages who were raised to believe this is about love and are confused as to why it's just so mean and why the religion that told me I was supposed to be about love. Now you're telling me I've got to go persecute migrants and be mean to Trans kids. It's all nonsense and it's all how authoritarians use religion to control people and play to our worst instincts. Jesus is a revolutionary. He's still dangerous to this day. And you don't need to believe in him as literal fact to use him against these frauds.

Yeah.

I found people I consider really good Christians in local black churches. I'm in Louisiana, and they seem to, you know, I've been helping a young man go to seminary.

Oh, wow.

And he's the only white guy in the whole school. And when I go there, I just feel just the love coming from these people. It's like, these are. Yeah, these people got Jesus. They know it and.

Well, it's a. It's a faith born out of pain and resistance, not comfort and domination.

Yeah.

I mean, that. The faith. Look at the. We're the only country in the world where our history of Christianity is inseparable from a history of white supremacy. So, you know, look at how all the great humor comes from the blacks and the Jews, and you can see why. That suffering gives us soul. That suffering will make your love deeper. That suffering, you can either let it break you and make you bitter, or you can make it expand your heart. And, you know, these are the two choices you can make spiritually. I'm going to do this to you because it was done to me, or I'm going to make sure this is never done to you because it was done to me. That's love, and that's what I see in black churches.

Beautiful. That's a beautiful distinction.

Yeah.

Well said.

Well said. I just made it up. Thank you. You're bringing out the best in me,

John. We haven't talked about a couple of the contemporary movements that have seemed like particular distortions or misunderstandings. I'm thinking of two. One is prosperity theology or prosperity gospel, and the other is Christian nationalism. Could you maybe say something about this?

Sure. They are very different. Christian nationalism, as you know, is. It's the invoke term now for, you know, a kind of fundamentalism. This is the kind that believes that America was created to be a Christian nation and that is America's destiny and that God wants us to be Christian. And that, of course, is the exact opposite of what the founders wanted. And their views of domination is the exact opposite of what Christ taught. Christian nationalism, I say in the book, is like taking the New Testament and the Bill of Rights into the woods at gunpoint and digging two holes. It is a gospel of domination over love. And most of the people that you will find who are Christian nationalists do not care at all about the actual teachings of Christ. Their religion is power. The prosperity gospel is different. It's not like the same kind of racism and, you know, the same kind of violence as Christian nationalism. The prosperity gospel is this notion, this belief that's very popular and very lucrative that, oh, boy, God wants you to have material success. And if you live a good life and if you donate heavily to our church, then God will reward your poggity with material wealth and riches in this lifetime. That's popularized by Joel Osteen and a lot of other preachers, and it's awfully cute, and it's theologically stupid. At no point in the Bible does Jesus ever say, you're going to get lots of cool shit for doing the right thing. At no point in the Bible does Christ ever say, you will get material riches for following my command. It's a very, very seductive argument. But it is junk theology, because what you're saying when you're messaging, that is, okay, so material success and wealth are proof that you're a good Christian. Well, what you're saying is that hard times and economic struggles are clearly happening to you because you're spiritually insufficient.

You're a sinner.

Yeah. You're broken in some way. So your suffering is your own fault. And we saw this for years with Jerry Falwell calling poor people bums. You know, the whole thing of your poverty is your fault, but you'll have wealth and lots of cool toys and things that plug in and wrap lights in it if you follow this way. And you know what? Joel Osteen has become very, very wealthy for that. He is not a racist. He is not a Christian nationalist. He's not an authoritarian. But it's garbage theology that has nothing to do with Jesus.

Yeah, I think he has a $50 million house.

Oh, he does? Yeah. But he couldn't let people come in to take shelter in his church during a hurricane.

During the hurricane. Yeah. He kept them out.

And they found about 300 grand hidden in the walls of a bathroom in that church. I mean, it's all grifted.

Oh, dear. I told that story. Oh, dear.

Oh, Google the cash they found in the walls of Joel Osteen's church.

Yeah, I read that. Yeah, you're right on.

You know, I mean. And look. And he's raking it in, and that's nothing new. And, yeah, we gotta call that out. But again, he's that kind of grift. They're not the ones making Life hell for migrants and trans children. They're, you know, it's not Joel Osteen sending these ICE thugs to chase brown kids around church picnics. And, you know, there's no starker rejection of the Gospels than what we see with the Trump administration. And that's why I wrote the book, to show folks you don't need to necessarily fight these people. You can let them argue with God. I was on CNN with our friend Scott Jennings not too long ago, and he was talking about the illegals. The illegals, which is a racist slur. They've never called a white lawbreaker an illegal in their life. It's only the brown people who cross the border. And, you know, I said to him, and you can do this with your racist uncle. I said, God of the Old Testament commands us to welcome the stranger. God of the Old Testament says that we must treat the alien as one of our own. And his son goes a step further in Matthew 25 and says, Individuals and nations will be judged heaven or hell by how we welcome the stranger. So why should I listen to you, uncle racist and Donald Trump and reject God and Jesus? If you know enough about the scriptures for any particular issue, you don't need to debate them. Let them debate the Bible and read this. Yeah, I mean, seriously, like I ask listeners, I ask callers to my radio show all the time, please give me one teaching of Christ that Donald Trump has fought for legislatively. Just one chapter and verse, please. And that's how you'll find out how little these folks have actually read the Bible, but you know so much of it. And this brings it back to the psychological aspect is, folks, who took that honor thy mother and father part a little too literally. Because what if your mother and father are lovely people but doing ugly things? And for me, I just try to bring it back to Jesus. If you're going to say you follow Christ, then you should follow him. But if you're going to use him for power, the rest of us get to mock you for it.

John, want to extend on what you were saying about Christian nationalism and your point about this being the fundamentalism being an international phenomenon, multi traditional phenomena. And talk about the role that Christian nationalism is playing in Russia at the moment with the Russian Order Church. Love to hear you comment on that.

Good point.

I mean, well, look, I mean, look how the reason why Putin listens to the patriarch is the patriarch tells Putin what he wants to hear. We have God's name added to the Pledge of Allegiance, which is a loyalty oath. We make Children say every day in schools, because we're all about freedom. Right. They only added under God to the pledge in the 1950s as a dig at those Soviets for being so godless. Now the big hype is, oh, they're not godless anymore. They're so Christian. Well, the patriarch is the one who gave Putin spiritual license to violate a treaty we all signed in 94 and violently invade and have mass slaughter and rape of the Ukrainian people. This godless, genocidal, lawless slaughter invasion is propped up by the Russian Orthodox Church, who totally gave Putin. That's what they do. Right? You have to somehow have some kind of just war theory. Right before we invaded Iraq, George Bush said, God will not be neutral. So once you have that veneer of spiritual blessing Hitler showed us, you got a clergy to back you up, you can do any anti Jesus thing you want.

I would say in the far right, they love Putin.

They love Putin.

It's just bizarre.

When I was a kid, I had far right people hating me for not hating Russians more. And now I'm a grown up and I have far right people hating me because I don't trust Putin. It's just like it's all authoritarianism. They worship power. You know, that's their creed. Whoever's boss have these liberals all the time who say to me, how can these people all be so pro cop every time a cop murders an unarmed black person? And then they'll stand by and cheer when cops are beaten on January 6th on the Capitol steps. I don't think there's a disconnect at all there. I think it's completely that in terms of the psychology, you would know better than me. But that's authoritarianism. These people will support a cop murdering an unarmed brown person. They don't need to see any evidence. They'll side with the cop because they side with the authority figure. But when that authority figure is in the way of another authority figure, when that cop is stopping Donald Trump from using fake electors to steal an election, well, then that cop's a problem. So it's not inconsistent. These back the blue hypocrites. Yeah, they're hypocrites on one level, but not because they only care about power. So the same cop, they'll cheer when he's beating up on someone more powerless? Well, they'll cheer someone more powerful when he's beating up on that cop. That's authoritarianism. They worship power.

Yeah.

So, you know, I'm living in the heart of the Bible Belt right now in northern Louisiana, but They're really losing a lot of their, their followers. I mean, you drive through rural Louisiana and you see all these abandoned churches.

Yes, sir. Same in New York City.

Yeah, it's just the young people aren't buying and the old people eventually pass and so the churches are closing down again. I found some really good stuff in the black churches around here, but you know, it's hard to keep them down on the farm when they seem gay. Paris.

Right? Yeah, but on your level.

But yeah, it's changing, it's going away. The Bible belt is not so tight anymore.

You may be right. But I do think in looking to the future of the church, you know, if the church wants to survive, it will probably have to realize that keeping women as second class citizens, being mean to gay people, those old standbys aren't testing as well with the focus groups in this century. And I do believe in many ways we are getting better and kinder as people. If you had told me in the 1990s that America would have gay marriage and a black president and we'd stop putting people in jail for cannabis, if you had told me this in the 90s, within 30, I wouldn't believe it. I wouldn't believe that humans could be that moral and evolve that much in 30 years. So there is so much evidence that we are getting kinder, that our hearts and minds are getting larger. But if the church wants to survive, you know, fighting injustice, standing up to discrimination, proper stewardship of the earth, looking out for the less fortunate and fighting that poor people have a safety net and decent health care, these are all ideas that are really popular with young people that align quite nicely with the actual teachings of Jesus. If the church wants to survive, it's got to stop being about the church's power and go back to the actual words of this brown skinned Jewish faith healer who hung out in the poor neighborhoods of Galilee. I mean, the authoritarianism, it's always going to work with a certain kind of person. But as you point out, those people are going away. If you want to get young people now, the old forms of power, religion aren't going to work. But appealing to the mind, appealing to the heart, appealing to the best in all of us to help the less fortunate. I think humans are always going to be susceptible to that kind of love and goodwill. And I think it's the only way Christianity is going to survive by bringing it back to Jesus and getting it away from what's passed for religion. And yeah, the black church is a lot closer to that.

You've mentioned several times, John, Jesus is this brown skinned guy. And each time you do it recalls to mind all these pictures I've seen of this blue eyed blonde Jesus.

Oh, can you believe it?

Just like me, I say at one

point in the book, you know, the actual Jesus never could have been cast to play Jesus in a movie about Jesus. Like he never would have done it. It's got to, got to say what you want about the passion of the Christ and I have a lot of problems with that movie. But Jim Caviezel is the only actor to ever use colored contact so his Jesus wouldn't have blue eyes. Only one. Interesting, but I mean, but again, but that's what you do, right? That's white supremacy. When they began having white pictures of white Jesus in bibles in the 1800s, I mean think about how destructive that was. Think about how that associated divinity and goodness with whiteness and Eurocentric good looks. And so the internalized racism is just part of the package deal. Right? You don't look like this, so you're not as holy as this. And that's how racism was embedded in generations of people. White blue eyed Jesus hanging out in Palestine, the only white blue eyed guy there. But it got the message across and we recreated Jesus in our own image and it led to centuries of racism

and cruelty and recreated God in our own image too.

Amen.

I'd never appreciated the way that, I mean I was making fun of the blue eyed born Jesus, but I'd never appreciated until you just said that oh, this was actually not only fitted with, but reinforced the whole racist perspective. Oh yeah, very much so, yeah, very important.

Tragically so. Yeah, we're still paying the price for it in this country and in the world. Yeah.

John, there are some really weird things you mentioned in the book that are like the Bible says this. So

tell me, tell me.

Oh well.

Oh, I got one for you. Galatians 5:12, is that right? That's where Paul said cut off.

Oh yes, the only joke about cutting off your own dick in the entire Bible.

Yeah.

And I had King James version, I thought it was cut off from, you know, the community, whatever. But in the context many scholars says that's exactly, I looked this up. Yeah, exactly what he was saying.

It really is. I mean, and again, one of the reasons why Paul was able to make his version of Christianity catch on, not just because all the apostles were getting knocked off, but because Paul sold it as, hey, it's like Judaism, but you don't have to, you know, cut your foreskin Off. And that was popular. So in the passage in Galatians, it's about a debate about foreskins. And Paul says, I wish they would go all the way and emasculate themselves. I'm like, you go, paul, that's. Wow. Most people don't know there's a joke about cutting off your own dick in the New Testament, but he put it there.

I don't know if it was a joke, but he was highly, highly pissed off.

You're right. He was a very uptight guy. You never know, right? I kind of think they should go all the way to emasculate themselves as just Paul being edgy.

Well, along those lines, there are these little niceties, such as you pointing out that I could sell my daughter into slavery, but unfortunately I have to take her back if she doesn't really satisfy minor details like this. Like what would be a good fair price these days, I wonder.

You can trade your 10 year old for a goat. I mean, that's in the Bible, you know. So when these folks just say it's in the Bible, it's in the Bible. Well, rape is in the Bible. If you rape a virgin, you have to pay a certain fee to her father and then marry her, and you're never allowed to divorce her, but that's okay. Rape can be a form of courtship, and hey, the lady has no say in it. Most of these people who say they believe all of the Bible and live all the Bible as literal fact have not read all of the Bible and they're counting on the rest of us not having read it either. And that's how they're insulated. That's how they protect themselves. They use this book as camouflage. And I wrote this book to be camouflage removal because they don't believe in all of it. You know, they'll believe a talking snake is literal fact. But love your enemies was just Jesus being all metaphorical.

Are you talking about talking snake? What is that reference to? I missed that one book of Genesis.

Okay. You know, they'll believe that that's in the garden.

All right.

Yeah.

Adam and Eve in the garden. That's literal fact. Right? Talking snake, that really happened. Right. But give away all your possessions to the poor. Come on, Jesus, you don't really mean that. And you know, when I was a kid, I was like, what does a literal belief in a talking snake have to do with the stuff Jesus talked about? Nothing. But it's all about control. And if they can get you to believe Genesis is literal fact, they can get you to believe that women are cursed and that because Eve got suckered by a snake, women to this day suffer monthly menstruation, painful childbirth, and crappy wages for doing the same work as a man. A lot of these weak men need young girls to be taught Genesis is literal fact so they can learn the proper roles of biblical womanhood. And that's why they're anti Jesus, who is the biggest feminist in the Bible. And that's why they need to be called out vociferously.

God gave you that voice and you do it so eloquently and so well informed.

You're very kind. Honestly, it was many years of writing this and crafting this, and there's like. I mean, some of this is like commentaries I've done on TV shows. Some of this is standup comedy routines I've done that I repurposed. There's. It's a big mishmash that I put together for many, many years. But. But it's all about how the loudest, most obnoxious Christians, they're not actually following Christ. And so, you know, if someone's going to say, I'm going to ban abortion, I'm going to force women to be pregnant against their will. I'm going to have men tell teenage rape victims that they've got to remain pregnant by their stepdad. If you're going to do this and criminalize abortion, which Jesus never mentions because you're so Christian, but you still support the death penalty in murdering prisoners, which Jesus actually opposed, then I don't think the rest of us are obliged to take their claims of Christianity seriously anymore. They have set the narrative for 1700 years, and I'm sick of it. And I think a lot of believers and non believers are sick of it too. There's plenty of nice people out there who actually follow Jesus. And I don't mind the Christ followers, you know, I trust those who seek the truth. It's the ones who claim they have it that we've learned we can't really trust that.

Well, yeah, that's a good point. I've come up with a saying, trust those who have questions. Be wary of those who have answers. Leave from to have the answer.

Nice. Brilliant.

And I think you. Yeah. And you point out. I'm curious. There's so much you point out in your book that's in the Bible. That's when you see it, it's like, really? This is really weird for you. What are the kind of the top two or three weirdnesses that stand out for you?

Well, I mean, some of it's just goofy, you know, being that I could pick one. What stands out for you, John?

Love your enemies.

That's pretty. Oh yeah, I mean it's pretty radical, right? Like Holy revelation. Jesus is so liberal, but in some ways he's quite conservative too. I mean, the Sermon on the Mount you could argue is Jesus being more conservative? Well, you know, it says you can't hate your enemy. Well, Jesus says you gotta love your enemy. You know, the scriptures say, oh, you, you can't cheat on your wife. Jesus like, no, if you ogle a woman, you've committed adultery already. You know, that's about sex harassment. When he goes look on a woman with lustful looks, I mean, you know, Jesus, the scriptures say, oh, you can't hate an enemy. Jesus like, you can't be angry with your brother. And in so many ways he's actually being more liberal and more conservative at the same time. But love your enemies. That's deeply revolutionary. And that's something that people on the left and the right like to overlook in their own spiritual purity tests. But I mean there's so much in the Bible that's just, I mean, I have a lot in here about the sex hang ups and a lot of that's very funny. And there's stories are just horrific, like the Levites concubine and that are totally unpleasant. And you know, I have a really good time with this story from the second book of Kings where the prophet Elijah is going up the mountain and these kids jump out and make fun of her being bald and called him bald head. Bald head. And Elisha calls a curse upon these children in the name of the Lord. And two bears come in from the forest right away and Maul 42 of the children. I read this when I was 9 years old and I'm like, what the hell? And I spent a whole summer when I was nine trying to figure out the physics of how could two bears maul 42 kids? I mean, wouldn't the kids run in every direction? Like, are they, do they, are they superpowered bears? Are they really fast? Like, did the kids trample each other? And that's like, I took it so literally as a child, it never occurred to me this might be a cautionary tale about respecting God's chosen messengers. I just thought, are they in a deep pit? How the hell did 2 bears maul 42 kids? There's no adults with swords around. How does this work? And I spent years as a kid trying to make this story make logical sense. Look, there's a lot of truth in the Bible. There's not necessarily a lot of facts. And I don't believe all of these stories were meant for us to take literally. Jesus spoke in parable and metaphor. So why is it so hard to read parts of the Bible as parable and metaphor? You know, a couple years ago, I finally saw the movie Cocaine Bear, and I said to my wife, you think two cocaine bears could get so high they could maul 42 kids? And my wife just moved away from me on the couch and didn't talk to me the rest of the night. So, I mean, this stuff will make you crazy if you don't know how to smile at it. And there's so many twisted teachings in the Bible, and I go into a lot of them in this book and. And some of them are really valuable because if these people are going to claim they believe in this to persecute someone, well, the same chapter says this. You believe that as well.

Yeah. And one of the things you give us permission to do, like the inspiration and the truth that comes through this book is the realization you don't have to eat the whole enchilada.

Yeah.

You know, these bad stuff. Now, there's interesting stories, historical context maybe, but you don't have every time Paul says something nasty or when there's cruelties in the Old Testament and there's stuff from Bronze Age tribe that. It just sound ridiculous.

Right?

Yeah. That's not holy scripture, correct this stuff. But there is some stuff there. And what you've emphasized the most important things. And that's where the redemption of this whole thing goes. And your mother, I think the nun working with lepers in Africa. Now there was a Christian move.

Yeah, I don't claim to be a good Christian. I should point that out. I don't either to your audience. I never claimed to be a good Christian. When I was young, I used to brag about what a good Christian I was. And nowadays I tell people I aspire to be a good Christian. But my parents were. And my mother devoted her life as a nurse to helping the less fortunate, and my father as an educator. They both went past the margins and worked with poor people. And I grew up around all kinds of clergy people and my parents, former friends who had been in the clergy with them. And my mom was the head nurse at a convent for her former order. So there were always nuns from around the world in my house growing up. And, you know, it all seemed very normal that Christianity was about love and it was about Going to help people that don't look like you and being kind and loving the people who don't look like you. My father was anti racist before I knew what that term was. And I closed the book. My first draft of this had a lot more stories about my life and a lot more Donald Trump. And I had to cut a lot of me and Donald Trump out to get it down to 80,000 words. But I do close a chapter on white supremacy in this book with the story of my grandfather, who I loved dearly and was prejudiced against every group it's possible to be prejudiced against. And my father was so anti racist, and it was so confusing for me as a kid. Like, so many of us have had this feeling like, well, this person's my family member and they're Christian, but they're a horrible bigot. But I love them. And that can be really hard to make sense of as you're growing up. And so I did include a story about that on a personal level and about how on my grandfather's last day of his life, he was able to overcome bigotry, because I do believe that can always happen. It's very beautiful.

The Filipino priest.

Yeah. You really read it? Yeah. My grandfather's dying in the hospital and we're all there. And my dad called a parish to get a priest over to give the last rites and they sent the Filipino priest. The look on my parents faces a gentleman. Oh, I was 14 and sobbing. And my parents were so afraid. They were so afraid that his racism would come out and that it would be an ugly scene. And they made me wait in the hallway because they didn't want my last memory of my granddad to be him being a racist who turned away the very love that came to help him. But by the end, he was past that. And it was amazing. Like, I knew he was racist and I knew my dad wasn't. And it was a weird dynamic. And to have my grandfather holding hands with a non white priest right on the last day of his life. It was both one of the saddest days of my dad's life and one of the happiest days of his life at the same time. So, I mean, I wrote this book for everybody who struggled with that disconnect. I was raised to think it's about love, and now it seems like it's about this. How does it make sense?

Yeah, that's a beautiful. It's a beautiful, loving contribution, John. You really have given us a gift. As we come towards the end, is there Anything you'd like to add?

Well, I just want to say what a pleasure it is to be on your show. I mean, I was impressed that you'd want to go deep and talk tabernacles. And I'm grateful we got to talk a bit about human psychology here, because I do think it's all really wrapped together. And, you know, I don't think we can hate these people. We can hate them. We just can't hate them back. But we have to beat them without hating them, and that's the challenge. And.

And that's deeply Christian, by the way.

I hope so. I mean, in democracy. In a democracy, we have to beat them, you know, and like I said, you don't need to believe in Jesus to be able to cite him against these fake Christians. And Jesus doesn't need to be real to help us become better people.

And, John, you're just basically saying, go for it. Really stand for do what has to be done, but do it with love. And it feels like, gosh, that's a cross traditional message. I'm thinking my own meditation teacher, Sharon Salzberger, this little woman who was in Calcutta on the way to see her teacher one evening, and out of the shadows, some big guy and tried to haul her off the rickshaw. And fortunately, the rickshaw driver and her were able to push him aside and get off. And she went and told the teacher afterwards because he teacher was very much into love and compassion for everyone and asked, well, how should we have done it? And he said, oh, Sharon, you should have taken your umbrella and with all the love in your heart, hit him as hard as you can.

That's awesome.

Yeah. Beautiful. And I think that's in your own words, in your own tradition, what the gift you're giving us, John, to really hold to the deepest values the most, love, and do what needs to be done, but do it from love. Yeah.

And I want to put a piece in here that we didn't get around to, but please, abortion.

Okay. Oh, yes. Okay.

I think that really, by the way,

this has been such a good interview. That's usually the first topic we get to. Let's do it.

I believe there's devout people that really don't think abortion is a good thing. For truly spiritual, compassionate reasons.

Sure.

However, if you force women to have babies, you're taking on a responsibility to bring these kids up.

Yeah.

And if you just love the fetus and you don't love the child and his mother, it's just religious bigotry. It's just bullshit.

Absolutely. I can't disagree. Look, it's very simple for me. The reality is that pregnancy is more dangerous than abortion to a woman's health, and childbirth is more dangerous than abortion to a woman's health. So I as a man do not have the right to force a citizen to make a decision that is more dangerous for their health. I don't have the right to make someone else choose something that's more risky for them. And anyone who wants to oppose ending pregnancies based on civil rights issues or humanitarian concerns. Right on. I get it. I respect the argument. When you start claiming the Bible is your tool to force rape victims to be pregnant against their will, when you start saying that American citizens should be forced by government to be pregnant whether they want to be or not, and you use Jesus, well, then I'm going to call you out. Because the Bible's not against abortion. It's never mentioned in the book. Abortions existed during this time. At one point in Jeremiah's lament, Jeremiah wishes he wasn't murdered in the womb when he's going through a tough time. We know abortions existed in Egypt. We know from Greece. We know from historical records that you could end a pregnancy. And the reality is the Bible never bans it. Judaism never bans it. In Exodus 21, God asserts a fetus is property and that a woman's life has more value in his eye. In Numbers, chapter 5, God gives abortion tips for unfaithful pregnant wives. It's pretty gruesome. Passover, I think, is proof that God doesn't prioritize the innocent lives of children. And Jesus is against the death penalty, never mentions abortion. God never sees fit to have Moses, Paul, any of the prophets ever mention it. And that's why to this day, abortions are legal and free in Israel, which most conservatives don't know, because Christ's religion never bans them. So you want to oppose it, Great. I get it and I respect the argument. And I've known many people who are against abortion rights who make very compassionate and well thought out arguments. You're going to start using the Bible and I'm going to have to call you out. Because for 45 years after Ronald Reagan's election is when the moral majority and the right wing Christians realized they didn't have segregation or Nixon anymore. They had to find a new racket. And it's been abortion since 1980. They've gotten the followers of Christ to vote against everything Christ talked about by talking about abortion, which Christ never talked about. It's Replaced Christianity. It's redefined it. I mean, like, it's assumed if you're Christian, you hate gay people and you want to criminalize abortion, and those two things have nothing to do with Christ's ministry.

We should love children.

Yeah. Love the ones who are here. They. Yeah. You're going to tell me you're pro life while cutting usaid? No, I don't believe you. You're going to tell me you're pro life while bombing people in boats off the coast of Venezuela? Sorry, I don't buy it.

John, this has been a real deep blessing. Watching your podcast, reading your book. It's one of the most important books that's been published in a while, I think.

Thank you.

And we do aquatic reading here, and your heart and your scholarship and your prophetic voice is very, very impressive.

Well, you're. You're very kind. I find I'm getting a much more pious caliber of death threat for this than I usually get, so thank you for that. I'm so grateful to be invited here to talk about these things. So. It means an awful lot. And I knew how heavy this was, so I tried to make it as entertaining and light feeling as I could. And I. I do owe some thanks to my editors for making me break up the text a lot, make it more PC, more like magazine articles and chapters with a bit here, a bit there, a box here, a square here, and break up the information so it wasn't so dense.

It worked.

Yeah, it worked. You did a great job.

Oh, bless y'. All.

The book, again, is Separation of Church and Hate, A Sane Person's Guide to Taking Back the Bible From Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock Leasing Broads.

Whoa.

It's beautiful.

Nailed it. Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

I want to encourage everybody that's listening to get the book. It's really an important work, and you'll probably read it and want to give it away, but it's just so needful and so well done.

Thank you so much.

And it came right through you.

It's also an audiobook as well that people can get on Audible for, I think, one credit. And I'm just so grateful to be able to come here and talk about it. Thank you. This is, in many ways, it is by far the most. I think it's the most mainstream thing I've ever done. I wrote a book about how Jesus wants us to be nice to each other. For all the controversy, I consider it to be very mainstream indeed.

Well, may it be so. Thank you so much, Sean.

Thank you, John.

What an honor. Thank you, gentlemen. Peace.

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