Welcome to Podcasting Tech, a podcast that equips busy

entrepreneurs engaged in podcasting with proven and cost effective

solutions for achieving a professional sound and appearance. I'm

Matthew Passi, your host and a fifteen year veteran in the podcasting

space. We'll help you cut through the noise and offer guidance on software and

hardware that can elevate the quality of your show. Tune in weekly

for insightful interviews with tech creators, behind the scenes studio tours, and

strategies for podcasting success. Head to

podcastingtech.com to subscribe to this show on YouTube or your favorite

podcast platform, and join us on this exciting journey to unlock the full

potential of your podcast. I would

say we have a guest who needs no introduction, but we're gonna give him one

anyway. We are chatting with the founder and creator of School of

Podcasting, which began all the way back in 02/2005. He's

also the head of podcasting at PodPage, formerly of

Libsyn. He's a good friend to most podcasters, including myself.

He is the wonderful amazing Dave Jackson. Dave, thank you for joining us

today. Matthew, it's always great to hang out with you. It's, always

a good time, and, looking forward to this. I I

usually ask everybody, how did you get into podcasting? But I have a feeling that

story has been told six gajillion times by you on

various podcasts, including the three gajillion that you have

started on your own. So instead, real quickly, I

just wanna kinda, like, take me through, you know, not

when you started to podcast, but really when you started to work in podcast and

really become part of the industry and what that was like for you

as someone who, you know, just kinda jumped into the space on a whim.

Yeah. It's kind of weird in a way. I remember the very first,

like, event. It was in, I believe, 02/2006 in

Ontario, California, the metropot metropolis of

Ontario, California, which I never heard of. And we're in a Holiday

Inn, and it was weird because all of a sudden you're like, oh, I'm not

the only nerdy guy playing with this stuff.

And so you start to make connections. Like, that's where I met Todd Cochran

and a bunch of other people. And it wasn't

until really when I got involved, like, the industry because I was

doing the school of podcasting, and that's where it was fun. I I mean, I

met I had Rob Walsh on the show. I had Ty Cochran. I was kinda

like Switzerland. I could work with all the different media hosts.

And when I, lost my teaching job,

I was like, well, I'd like to work in podcasting. And I was like, well,

where would I work? And I'm like, well, Libsyn's the best. So let's let's go

there and, called up Rob and had a quick conversation.

And so that's that's kinda where it began just when I,

originally, when I got laid off at my teaching job, I called my then

wife, and I said, hey. I think I'm gonna do the school of podcasting full

time. And she went, yeah. No. You're not. And I went, what? And she's like,

yeah. No. Sorry. Thanks. You know? And I'm like, but, honey, you're a nurse. You

make tons of cash, and you have great health benefits. But, and so I

that's kinda how I got into to Lipson, and it's just a

matter of I'm curious. So I'm always,

talking to people about new tools and different,

strategies that they're doing. And so I think it was just a matter of like,

podcasting is the bubble that I live in, and so there are other

people that are you know, there's a whole there's a whole true crime thing that

I know it's huge, but there's, like, little mini celebrities in

there. And then, you know, the every every little genre

has their own little bubble. I remember when I went to, I think it was

called VidCon in Seattle, and I'd never seen cosplay.

And if nobody tells you what cosplay is and you walk in and you're like,

why does that guy have elf ears on? And it was Welcome to Night

Vale. All these people were dressed like characters in Welcome to Night

Vale. And then when I went into the big room, and it looks like a

Metallica concert with two big giant screens, and the whole room is filled,

and everybody was laughing at jokes that I had no idea what they

were. They were all inside jokes. And if you listen to that podcast,

you got them. I was sitting there scratching my head while people are rolling out

of their seats like it's showtime at the Apollo. And that's when I went, wow.

This is a whole other bubble that I've known nothing about. So it's kind

of interesting how you you get immersed into what you think is

the industry, and instead, it's just a little

small, you know, chunk of it. It it's so true.

Even going to events, podcast movement, pod fest, where you

tend to see the same people, a lot of the same personalities, a lot of

the same companies. And then you go to an event or you talk to somebody

online, you bring up all these people like, oh, yeah. You're being a podcast. You

know? So this, this, this, and, like, nope. And they've got a whole other world

of people in podcasting who they think are the bee's knees, who they think are

the the leaders of the, you know, the influencers and whatnot. So it is

interesting how large this world is and yet how

small it can feel, for each of those different communities.

I'm curious. Moving from

teaching and podcasting on your own and school of

podcasting to, you know, getting behind,

an industry player and, you know, seeing not just

how the sausage is made, but how everybody complains about how the sausage is

made. Was there anything that, like, jaded you on podcasting? Was there anything

that happened that, you know, made you change

the way you approach your content, your your stuff?

The the the only thing that really just makes me go, oh, it's

one of those, is the person that more or less now they don't

say it blatantly, but they come up to me and they basically say, what's the

topic I can talk about where I can do the least amount of work and

do and make the most amount of money, which I understand. Who wants to do

a lot of work to make? But the person that's really looking for the shortcut

and doesn't even care what the topic is. And I'm like, wait. So you have

no passion about a topic. You're just gonna pick the one that makes the most

money. And I'm just kinda that always makes me just kind of there's like a

sad trombone going off in my head when that person asks the question.

You know, it's just, in terms of, you

know, things ways people move, it the thing I like about

podcasting is is there are no rules. There are definitely best practices.

So when I have a guy right now that is working,

I'm not gonna tell you the exact name, but he's basing a show

on his last name. And he's going to interview other

people with the same last name and talk about famous

people with the same last name. And I and he asked me, do you think

this is gonna work? And I go, I gotta tell you. You

get, like, a plus for originality because I've never heard

anybody else do that. I go, now is this gonna work? I go, in

theory, if somebody with that last name and they know their family,

who I'm assuming have the same last name, I go, it

could work. I go, but this is one of those recipes that, like, their only

way to know if it's gonna work is to make it and then see what

happens. You know? It's like a I've never had chocolate with my peanut butter

before. Let's let's try this, and it may work. It may not. So

I love to see people being really creative, especially when you

go, this could fall flat, and yet they do it anyway. Yeah.

An idea like that, it sounds interesting.

Right? Terrible on paper, but interesting. And with the right host

and with the right commitment, it probably could turn into a

weird cultural phenomenon, right, that people are talking about. But,

it's it's not a guarantee that just because you're niche or weird,

it's gonna work. But, you know, those types of shows are the ones that

tend to break through, the ones that break the mold that disrupt the

space. And so, yeah, when somebody says, what should I

podcast about? It's like, no. No. No. What am I passionate about? How do I

share it? Maybe a podcast is right for you. Yeah. I just saw Sean Evans

who does hot ones on YouTube was on, Jimmy

Kimmel. And I'm like, that's a pretty niche show. I'm gonna

interview people while they're basically, you know,

throwing themselves. Yeah. Torture themselves with Hot Wing. And then I'm gonna do

I'm gonna be a really good interviewer and ask questions that require them to think.

That's a pretty strange premise. It is. And yet how many and how how many

copycats have come up as a result? Right? Because it worked for one person. Yeah.

So you you worked for Libsyn for a really long time. You've moved on over

to PodPage, you know, a a great company. We had Brandon

on the show, one of the first episodes. Always been a big supporter of PodPage.

We use that for the show. But you guys are unveiling

new features, including one that just came out at the time that we're chatting maybe

about a week or so ago, surveys for your

audience. Tell us what that's about, how, you know, how it's supposed to work on

PodPage, and and why this one, got introduced. Yeah. There are, you

know, multiple ways you can kinda see, and that's the the point. I can kinda

see how people like my stuff by going to, you know,

podcastconnect.apple.com and looking at my completion rate. I can

see some of that in Spotify. If you're on YouTube, you

can see that on YouTube. But, you know, the easiest way

to figure out if your audience likes what you're putting out is to, I

don't know, ask them. And so what we

did is Tom Webster, hall of fame person,

Tom Webster, right, inductee, has a great book called the audience

is listening. And Tom's been measuring podcasting

and before that radio for decades, and he had these really

good instead of saying, is it too short or too long,

ask a question like, if I were to remove something from the

podcast, what would it be? That's kinda asking if it's too long. There these little

subtle ways of doing it. And so we reached out to Tom and said,

wow. You have these really great questions. Can we

use them to make a survey and pod page? To which Tom said, yeah. As

long as you put a link to my book at the the top of the

description of the cert not so much for the public, but for the podcaster. And

we're, like, done. And then we added five questions in the event

that you wanna ask something that Tom doesn't. And it's been the

people that are using it are getting this great data

where one of the one of our customers was doing a

daily show. And he said the number one thing I'm hearing from my audience

is they don't need a daily show. They're kinda getting fed with a fire

hose. He's giving them great topics to think about,

and they're like, can I have a little more time to think about this topic

before you hit me with another one? And, like, I found

out, I, I primarily hang out on

Facebook and and Twitter, and I asked my

audience and a considerably large amount of

people hang out on LinkedIn. And I kinda play in

LinkedIn, but I was like, well, guess what? That's where my audience is. Maybe I

should go hang out there more. So the more you know about your

audience, the better you can make your stuff. And so

I always say if your podcast is, you know, a dinner party and

then you find out, oh, wait a minute. You know, Jill's coming over, and she's

vegan. And, you know, Rob's coming over, and he's, you know,

gluten intolerant or whatever. You're gonna have to change your your meal up a

little bit. Or, you know, in some cases, you go, well, you

know, gluten free people, sorry. You're just not my target audience. Depending on

whatever it is, but the more you know about your audience

and especially what they want, the more you can give it to them. Then the

more you give it to them, the more likely they are to tell somebody

to go listen to your show. That the interesting you bring up

that concept of the vegan and the gluten free, and you start to allude to,

well, maybe you're just not my audience. I shouldn't cater to it. But it's so

hard for new podcasters to be told to

limit your audience. Right? Everybody wants the biggest audience

possible, but if they try to attract everyone, they're

gonna attract no one. How do you how do you talk to

clients or, you know, other podcasters and tell them

fight that urge to cater to a larger audience and

focus on just your target audience. Right? It's okay to reject

outside ideas even if you're, you know, sitting in only a few

downloads per episode. Yeah. Because part of that is based on, you know, we

want huge numbers. And if we limit our audience, well, that

doesn't seem to make any sense. And, look, I'm guilty of this as well because

and I always at the beginning of it, if I'm doing a show for an

absolute beginner, I will say at the beginning of the show, this

is for an absolute beginner because a lot of my audience has been podcasting. They're

like, hey. I wanna grow this. I don't wanna launch it. So I always do

that, but there's a part of me that goes, you should split this off and

just do a show about launching instead of occasionally giving people

an episode that they may not want. But I always try to say that,

you know, if you've already launched, you might wanna listen to this because I know

a lot of people don't think about how am I gonna measure my success.

And so it it is kinda tough, but it's it's a matter of

not it it's about getting the right people, not a ton of

people. Because, I I mean, I was just a

pod fest, and I'm in a room full of podcasters. And we

all have the same ideas and that we're all trying to grow our audience, and

we're sharing insights and things like that. And when you have that community

and you don't have to worry about leaving somebody out because you're all on the

same page, that's a magical thing. And you don't wanna

be just a good podcast. You wanna be someone's favorite.

And I always use the analogy of, taking people

out for pizza. I had an aunt in from out of town, so we had

about a group of 12. And we went into this place, and my aunt

and my niece are kitchen sink pizza. Right? Just

whatever you got back there, throw it on there. We'll just anchovies, you know,

whatever. And they were happiest pigs in mud because

they got their favorite type of pizza. My brother looks at me and goes,

hey. What do you want? I go, I usually do pepperoni. He goes, can you

do extra cheese? And I go, yeah. Okay.

So I didn't get my absolute favorite pizza. It was good. It was great, but

it wasn't like, oh, this is the best pizza ever. And so our goal

is to be someone like, the minute this comes out, they're like, oh,

man. There's another episode for Matthew. I gotta go play this. And if

you kind of give them what they want, that's probably not the result you're gonna

get. And it's hard. This really is. It's it's tough to you know

not every chapter gets highlighted. And so you you

do your best, and it starts with knowing who your audience is, and you aim

and you fire. And it's always funny. I'm I'm sure you've had this where you've

worked on an episode forever. You put it out thinking it's the

best thing, and it's gonna go viral or whatever, and it's just crickets.

And then there are episodes I had one that I put out while I was

at Podfest. It was kinda like, yeah. This is on point. It's not my

best stuff, but I but and I had I got home, and people are like,

that was a great episode. And I'm like, really? So

but it all starts with knowing, you know, who your audience is, and

that's where, you know, it all starts. And

it is. It's it's hard to talk people off the I want I want in

a you know, it's how far are we into the seven minutes? I'm gonna say

the Rogan word. Right? When we hear Joe Rogan in this giant

audience and I was just tell people, realize step one of

that is be Joe Rogan. And and I I did this in my presentation. I

said, how many people in the room are Joe Rogan? And, of course, nobody raised

their hand. I'm like, good. So let's drop that strategy because we're just not

gonna do it, but it is tough. And, it's

also this is where you mentioned passion earlier.

If you do kind of put up a little bit of of

guardrails to stay on topic, there are times

after a year and a half where you're like, I can't talk about this anymore.

And so you are allowed to expand out. I remember Lee still

Lee Silverstein had a show called the colon cancer podcast. And

after years, he finally rebranded the title,

and it was we have cancer because when somebody in your family has cancer,

everybody basically is going through that together. But it is tough to stay

on track. But if you if you have that focus,

then you're gonna end up you know, it's it's we're we're going from a

shotgun approach to trying to be everything to everyone to a rifle,

which I I hate that it's such a violent example,

but, you're you're more spot on. These were,

Nerf rifles and Nerf rifles. So they're very, very gentle and and very,

very safe. So going back to the survey,

you know, podcasters are always told, you know, talk to your audience, ask them

what they want. Right? Check with them. And, you know, Podpace has has this

feature. It's supposed to make it a little bit easier as my camera sits here

and and plays all sorts of funny games than me. Sorry, audience.

But sometimes people put that stuff out there and they get crickets. How do you

how how would you advise someone

to get their audience to respond, to engage,

to interact with them? Because,

otherwise, they're gonna feel even lonelier and frustrated and probably wanna give

up. Yeah. This is, if we go back to the old

Rush song, if you choose not to decide, you've still made a choice.

So if you're trying to get feedback and you don't get

any, you've actually just got a ton of feedback. It's not very

good feedback, but your audience is letting you know,

I'm not really feeling connected to you. And so

everybody likes to benefit. And so you

kind of you know, if if I got zero responses, I might come back and

say, hey. You know, two weeks ago, I asked you to fill out a survey,

and I've got a whole lot of nothing. And so I just wanna remind

you that the reason I'm doing this survey is I'm doing this show for

you. I mean, I love this topic, but I'm doing this show for you.

And the more I know what you're looking for, the

more I can go find that content and bring it to you.

And then it won't just be me and you because I always talk to one

person. It won't be just me and you sitting here talking

about this this, topic. We can have a whole community

of people. My goal is to grow this and have a community, maybe a Facebook

group or a heartbeat group where we can all talk about this, but it's gonna

start with making sure that I know what you want. So

I would really deeply appreciate it if you could just simply

go to mywebsite.com, whatever that is, slash survey,

and fill this out. And, I'll be you know, if you wanna put

your name in, I'll even give you a shout out, whatever it is, but everybody

likes to benefit. And so it's like when people do this with

emails, they'll be like, oh, just go sign up for my new you know, you

can sign up for the newsletter. Okay. For for what? Because

I didn't wake up today going, oh, I hope I can find a newsletter to

sign up for. You know? Please fill my inbox with more stuff.

Yes. So you've gotta give something to them. And so,

you know, there's not now the survey at PodPage, you can give

them a, you know, PDF or something like that. You can give them a little

incentive to do it. But if the incentive is, hey. This show is

gonna be better based on your feedback. So it's just one of

those things, but it is it's one of those things. It is soul crushing

when you put it out there, and there's just crickets. And you're like, well,

that's my worst nightmare come to to live, and that's when you're just like, well,

at least I know where I'm starting at, and I can only go up from

here. I I love the way you frame that that

and, you know, I always talked about this with my clients in the past. And

and even today, when I talk to podcasters about their marketing efforts, it's not

about what the audience can do for me. It's about what you can do for

the audience. What value are you providing them? And so the way you

frame that, I think was great. And, you know,

I think if if everybody approached all of their content creation in that

same way with here's what I'm giving you

if you happen to listen. Here's what I'm giving you if you subscribe.

You'll definitely see better results in the long run

if you're giving them something that they want. If you're giving them crap, I mean,

right, nobody needs crap. And you're kinda coming up alongside

them. Instead of you being the leader, you're you're kinda coming

alongside of them and go like, hey, guys. Let's let's go ahead and and come

up with the best content. We're gonna grow this community together. I just happen to

be the person behind the microphone. And so it's it's

tricky, and, you know, this is where, you know, we

mentioned the survey. This is one of the things I do at when I go

to an event like Podfest or Podcast Movement. A lot of me is just

listening to seeing what people are talking about and what they're getting

stuck on and things like that. And so that's where if you're not

getting any engagement, you know, head out to a Facebook

group or Reddit or wherever you're going, and you can actually see what people are

stuck on. And, you know, that's really

kind of the bottom line of what people want is, you know, I

have a problem. How can I solve it? Or it's you know, you

might be talking I I I see, not a lot, but

there are podcasts about rare diseases. And

those people, you know, you're not gonna get a ton. You're not gonna

get thousands and thousands depending, I guess, on the disease. But

when somebody else I know there's one. It's something something

spondylitis, and the group themselves call

it spondy. It's like a nickname. And the

fact when they and it's a horrible disease. You're in pain all the

time. And so Jason Sacco does a a show

on spondylosis, whatever the beginning of that is.

And he was talking about how just having somebody else that's going

through the same crap you are is a huge

benefit because you don't feel alone. And so when you can

go out and see what people are talking about and then talk about it on

the show, you know, that's one of those on paper, this should

resonate. Yeah. I've I I remember when I was

hosting call spots, talking to a lot of people who were doing shows about very

rare diseases or, you know, very niche causes. And

more than being informational, it was community. It

was, right, just having somebody else who

understands what you're going through talking about it. And, you

know, 20 or 30 listeners doesn't sound like a lot to most of

us, but in a group like this, you know,

rare disease group where they are all fighting the same thing,

the 20 or 30 of them able to get together,

pool their resources, you know, write to different

agencies and whatnot to get more funding or go out. Like, it made

a difference. And that was all possible because, you know, one person

who was going through this decided to open up the microphone and and

share some some value with people. You know, we we can talk

to Dave Jackson for probably days in a row, probably some amazing

World Guinness marathon on podcasting. But if you've heard

him before, he's not quite that 100% that we love to get from him, so

we're not gonna keep him for too long. But, as a reminder, it's Dave

Jackson from the Famous School Podcasting, head of podcasting at PodPage,

which we encourage you to check out both of those properties. Before we let

you go, Dave, there are questions we like to ask everybody. First one is if

there's something in podcasting that you would like to see

improved, what would it be? And that can be, you

know, production, distribution, consumption.

Right? Like, doesn't have to be from the creating a podcast. Just

something that you're like, god. I wish we did this better. Well,

I'm I've been someone involved at least paying attention to

the podcasting two point o space, And that was not that

it doesn't have momentum now, but I I feel, in my opinion, that

we lost a little bit because there was this whole streaming Bitcoin thing. And it

was getting easier and easier, still far from being easy, but

it was getting there. And we tried to

do things decentralized. We ended up, unfortunately,

centralized on a company and nothing against this company, but there was the

problem is if you have a lot of of Bitcoin going back and

forth, you can kinda get the attention of the government because they're

like, wait. Are you laundering money over there? And so

that company was like, yeah. We will help anybody, unless you're in

The US. And so that's kind of taken a seat back. And I

feel like the one girl in Willy Wonka is like, I

want it now, daddy. You know? And they are working on

an a a different approach, but that's one that's

that I'm kinda like, oh, we were we were really getting some steam going

there. So there's that. And I I mentioned it earlier. I think the other thing

that we just kinda need is a little more creativity. I I

don't, in in the and it's just, you know, old curmudgeon of me. In the

early days, there were some really weird shows. I remember one

guy, as he was, shall we say, doing his business,

in the first of the morning. It was called the daily download, and he

was he was on his throne, shall we say, recording a podcast. Very

weird. There was a show called Yeast

Radio hosted by, Madge Weinstein,

and Madge Weinstein had this wicked New Jersey accent.

And and and back in the day, this is again, like, 02/2005,

just swore like a sailor, like nobody's busy. Like, really outrageous.

And you're like, woah. You could do that on the radio. And then I found

out later that Maj was a dude, and it was an actor. The whole thing

was just an an act, and it was hilarious at the time. So

there are times when, you know, there are and there's

nothing wrong with the typical solo show and an interview show and things like that,

but I kinda like can we kinda mix it up? Throw something in there

so that you can't be copied? I just inducted George

Robb into the, the hall of fame, and the one thing you can't

do is copy George Robb. There's only one of him, and

he's, so sometimes I'm like, I I'd like to see a little

more creativity in being different, and that's hard. I mean,

that's one of the hardest things about podcasting. When you go, well, how is your

show gonna be different than everybody else's? And people go,

and it is. It's your background and your thoughts and your perspectives that are gonna

make it different, but sometimes I miss the really super creative

stuff. Well, I suppose today, it's a lot harder for that super creative stuff to

break through with the the deluge of new shows that are constantly coming out, you

know, with the barriers to entry being lowered even more so.

So, but, yeah, you know, be creative, be fun,

and, be determined. Don't give up. We, we could use your your good

shows. What about tech? Is there anything on your wish list, hardware,

software, something that is out there that you wanna buy that you haven't

yet or something that you're like, god, I wish somebody would make this. Yes. I

love the PodTrak p four. Okay?

It it is the Swiss army knife, and it came out years

ago. It's about a hundred and $50 now. And if we

went back to, you know, 2,010, this would have been a couple thousand dollars or

maybe a thousand dollars. But, anyway, I have I actually emailed

Zoom this week, and I'm like, any chance a 32 bit float

version of this is coming in the future? And they didn't say no,

but they didn't say yes. And but they do have the new h

one XLR. Or the h six essential,

that's 32 bit float with all the same features as the p four. So

it does because the thing that's nice about the p four is it's a recorder

and an interface at the same time. Yes.

Okay. Well, that's beautiful. Because I saw where the h one is two

microphones in, only one headphone out, which is that's kinda

like, but if you're a solo person, it works. But it I heard

it does record and be an interface at the same time. So if the h

six does that, I might have to check into that. But,

I I love my p go ahead. Yeah. PH six does that.

Obviously, it's not gonna be a hundred and $50. Right. And you also

are stuck with just the one headphone jack. Yeah. So you just buy a quick,

you know, headphone jack, headphone, headphone amplifier, and

you're good. Oh, don't worry. Zoom makes one that they'll happily

sell you. Yes. Exactly. So that's that's the piece of gear.

And, look, that doesn't mean that the p four is bad. It's just

everything and the the big magic phrase is 32 bit float because it's kinda hard

to record bad audio with that. And I'm like, oh, if we could only marry

32 bit float into a p four, life would be

so fulfilling. So Well, if anybody wants to buy Dave a cup

of coffee, AKA Zoom h six essential, I'm sure he would be grateful for it.

And, of course, this is gonna be the hardest question because of what you do

and how long you've been doing it. But are there any podcasts in your life

that you cannot live without the shows that regardless of what else you're

listening to, they drop a new episode you're gonna stop, or you just you're

never gonna let one of their episodes get by you that week. There there are

probably two. One is I I mentioned him earlier. George Robb does a show called

the Geologic podcast, and it's just it is the epitome of I

don't know what I'm gonna get. So as much as you should be consistent with

your content, George is consistently funny,

but he he's it's the basis of that show

is science. It's a lot of sciency kind of

animals that morph into this or do this and that. And he also has a

segment called the religious moron of the week because George is a skeptic

or atheist. Take your pick on whatever verbiage you wanna use there. So I always

joke and say, why listen to make sure I'm not the religious moron of the

week because I'm not a skeptic, but but it's just entertaining. And it's one of

those I wonder because I've been listening to George since

02/2006, maybe 02/2005. And I always wonder

if I hadn't been listening this long and found him today if I would still

feel that way, but I definitely feel like I know him. And then the other

one is no agenda with, Adam Curry and John C.

Dvorak just because I keep hearing news that should be

on the news, but it's not. And they just their whole

part is they just kinda pick apart the news. Like, they'll you'll hear, like,

well, bird flu is up two percent from and, like, okay. But what

numbers is that? Like, if I went from, you know, two people

to four people, that's a, you know, whatever percent. Never do math live, by

the way. But they'll say, well, wait a minute. They're not giving us the numbers.

They're giving us the percentage, and they just kinda dig through stuff.

Plus, they have clips of news articles from

forever. And so when somebody will say, well, we're gonna do this new

thing, and they'll be like, wait a minute. Didn't he say the direct opposite,

like, eight months ago? And they'll be like, yep. Here's the clip. So it's kind

of fun. They deconstruct it, the media, and,

sometimes it stops you from if you just watch the news, they just want you

afraid and scared twenty four seven. You know? Do you swallow

saliva over a long period of time? You know? Story at eleven.

This kinda thing. We're like, wait. What? So those are probably two off the top

of my head that, you know, there are others, new media show. I listen to,

like, I listen to your show. I listen to, like, so many shows about podcasting,

but, I think maybe that's why I like those shows because they're not about

podcasting. It's like, oh, here's a break, and it's entertaining. Yeah.

I'm I'm the same way. My my two shows that I won't let go by,

I listen to Start Here, the ABC Daily News podcast. And,

these days, it's been Conan O'Brien. He's a friend. I I just

I just find myself loving the interaction and and, you

know, needing a laugh, and and they tend to provide a a good one every

time I listen. So, yeah, I'm terrible about listening to

podcasts about podcasting. Yeah. Well and Conan's a good interviewer once he

gets to the interview. Drives me nuts. I'm not a like, you because you

know them, you're probably listening for the witty banter at the beginning where he

just makes fun of his staff. And I'm like, buddy, he's interviewing Paul

McCartney. Get to, you know, whoever. It's funny. I will listen to

the witty banter and skip the interview sometimes. I have no idea who the person

is. Yeah. I'm the same way with Marc Maron. I used to listen for the

interviews, and now I listen for the witty banter, except his witty banter

is we're all gonna die. And I'm kind of not listening to that as he

really is, like, worried that the world is coming to an end, and I'm like,

this is not really what I was looking for. Yeah. It's, it it

could be exhausting. Yeah. But but, anyway, it's, it's been a

pleasure as always chatting with Dave Jackson from the infamous school of

podcasting. If you were thinking about starting a show or need help with

yours, you will not find a kinder,

gentler, more experienced person in the space to help

you out with. And, of course, set a podcasting a pod page, which we

already include a link to pod page in our show notes every week, because that's

what we use for our website. Can't say enough good things about that platform

and the team over there. New features coming around all the

time now, it seems like. I feel like every few weeks I'm seeing you guys

pop up something new. So, just a great platform to use. Dave

Jackson, always good to see you. Always good to hear from you. Always good to

chat with you. Thanks for coming on. Matthew, always great to hang out with you,

man. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us today on

Podcasting Tech. There are links to all the hardware and

software that help power our guest content and podcasting

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