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Maddog, This should be some interesting conversation in this episode for our listeners. We're going to dive into a social dynamic that I would guess happens on a daily basis and easily for centuries. Why is it that we have such a challenge about talking about what we metaphorically call the elephant in the room? Have you seen a few elephants in your time or What?

I've seen one or two or 100 for sure. I think it's just people's, you know, dancing around. Sometimes it's very uncomfortable to address something that is the obvious issue or problem. So people just, to your point, talk around it instead of addressing it. Because conflict can come up, you can make somebody upset, and so people sometimes avoid the elephant.

So let's, let's talk about that big guy and let's, let's, let's figure out why people avoid it. And you're kind of laying the groundwork for it, which I really appreciate. Now. The whole elephant in the room, it's a metaphor for an obvious major problem or controversial issue that everyone is aware of but avoids discussing, usually because it's uncomfortable, embarrassing, or dangerous to bring up. Can you imagine that? Dangerous to bring up. So if you were in a country where they had a dictator and you decide there's something wrong, but if you opened your mouth, maybe that would be the last time you open your mouth.

I'm sure they have learned by other people's examples in situations like that.

So, yes, stay tuned as we travel on the path to explore why talking about the elephant in the room is such a challenge. And ways to engage this challenge that should develop our confidence to deal with other elephants. But first, as always, a thought for the day. When we transparently show honesty and integrity as a leader, a culture is born.

I like that one. I like that one a lot.

This'll be in the new book. Still have to give you one for the, for the old book, but this is the new book coming to life here, right? So, so just think about this Mad Dog. What are some examples you could think of as, as elephants in the room?

Oh, my goodness. Like a very simple one would be if somebody's flies down, some people don't want to say, listen your flies down. So people will Just ignore it. And this person will walk around and, and. But that it goes. It could be anything from food that was served by a host was horrible and everybody knows it, but nobody's gonna say anything. Like you could go on and on and on about the different types of elephants.

Well, the food. And you know what that reminds me of is Brussels sprouts. Where, where there's a certain person in the, in the family that traditionally makes Brussels sprouts for let's say Christmas or Thanksgiving and no one likes them. And you're wondering, why do I have to eat this? It's. And you're just eating it to be polite. And it's.

Yeah, because no one wants to upset Auntie Gertrude and her world famous Brussels sprouts world. But nobody needs that negativity in their life.

I don't care what, what you do to it, it's still going to taste the same. It's all said and done. Any other examples that come to mind?

It's okay. You could take that from work, from different social settings. You know, if you're out with somebody and they're obnoxious and no one says anything, but just because that one person's sensitive, if they get it literally. This is an endless form of topics. The elephant in the room.

Okay. And the elephant in the room. And I'm just going to throw it out there and get your take on this. But if I'm in the business world and we're having a meeting, first of all, let's say I'm the leader in the room. I want to encourage anybody that has an idea or someone that sees something that might become a little sideways. And in this case I'll call it the elephant, that if someone doesn't say something and they. Everybody walks out of the room saying, you know, that was a terrible idea. But yet that's the road we're going down. There's going to be a train wreck that happens. So you want the leader encourage someone to speak up and say, here are the cons to that and maybe we should be rethinking this. So you almost encourage the identification of the elephant and how to mitigate the problem that comes with the elephant.

Absolutely. You gotta. I tend to do that. I'll put people on the spot. If I can see somewhere in them that they're like uneasy about something or they don't agree with it. Your face says it all first. So if your face is willing to say it, you can vocalize it. So sometimes I'll say what you obviously have an issue with this. What's the concern? And for me, in, in the workplace, emotions, you know, obviously you're not going to be mean to people, but it's business. It's a lot of black and white stuff. So you should be able to talk about things. But people do get sensitive. So you have to be, you have to either mitigate the damage or guide the conversation as a leader to ensure that it doesn't kind of deep six anybody or make things worse. But there are ways to identify those elephants.

And you know, the thing about it, and I kind of, kind of alluded to it already, but if, if you get used to identifying that elephant and making it basically the norm to talk about the elephant, then it's so much easier to have conversations with people. It really is.

We can get past stuff, right? You don't have to, you know, dance around topics or not go into full discussions because there's an uncomfortability I prefer. Like with our VP group right now, we get into some pretty not heated discussions, but there's a lot of emphasis. But you, you don't take offense by it because we're all just trying to figure out a better way. But we have to challenge each other's ideas and not everybody's open to that sometimes.

Yeah, when I hear heated, I like to use the word passion.

It's a good way to put it.

Why is it that it's so hard for people to talk about that elephant? And when it's staring right in the face and it's so big, why is it so hard to talk about it?

I think the delivery of the message is probably the first thing because, you know, like we've said, you can easily offend somebody greatly by just kind of blurting something out. So there, there is a bit of a, an art to it or a knack to kind of say something without, you know, really upsetting somebody. But yeah, it's, it's uncomfortable to point things out about other people or said elephants.

What if I give you motivation to talk about that, the elephant in this sense? Just imagine this for a second. Because of course we know that there's not really an elephant in the room. But if you can imagine that you didn't talk about the elephant, but that elephant had its foot on your foot and how painful that would be, and if you didn't talk about that elephant, it was going to continue to cause you that pain. Just think about that first.

Oh, I've, I've had my footstep done many a time and it, yeah, you Kind of feel helpless or that, you know, you don't even want to speak because it's so uncomfortable for you. But as they say, practice makes perfect. And as long as you're giving feedback to not, you know, intentionally hurt somebody or just be mean, you kind of got to roll the dice sometimes. As long as the delivery is thought about.

Oh, yes.

Yes.

So has there been ever been a time where you've noticed that elephant and you haven't addressed it or just vice versa? Where you notice the elephant and you have addressed it and how things. How each of them have kind of worked out for you?

I. I took over this new position. I was, I inherited it of team of people that when I sat in on the first meeting, I was. What did I just get myself into? There was so much, so much dysfunctionality. So much. And it was, you know, a lot of people had some issues with each other and, you know, they started to vocalize it and then it just went down a weird path. It ended up taking care of itself by people leaving of their own accord. But yeah, it was one of those, oh, wow, this. This is going to be a problem. There's people here that don't like each other. I got to address all this. So, you know, I did what I could, but some people did leave. But yeah, it's. It's horribly uncomfortable because, you know, when you're talking about people's jobs and they're emotionally invested in. Everybody's got families and kids and stuff like that, but things aren't working at work. They. They need to be addressed no matter how hard a discussion it is.

Well, I used to think that that's why you get paid the big box, but that's just. That's just an easy thing. This. There are therapies. It's true. It's your responsibility. But again, with. With practice or by. You don't really grab an elephant by the horns. Where would you grab an elephant by the ears? By grabbing the elephant by the ears.

I would just tempt it with bananas down the way. Yeah. Stay out of its past. And not. Not close enough to touch.

Yeah, I wouldn't. I don't think I even want to get too close that elephant to start with.

No. They were gigantic creatures.

And you know what's funny? When I was, when I was coming up with the questions I was trying to figure out when I faced an elephant in the room and didn't address it, or vice versa too, but I, like, I'm hardwired right now that I'm not afraid to talk about elephants. So it's. It's so hard to kind of go backwards and look for those elephants that we walked out and they were just kind of snickering at us because, see it.

Yeah, your line of work, you can't dance around things. You have to address things head on because. Yeah, just. I'm sure a lot of bad things could happen. So I'm sure you get programmed just to deal with stuff and not leave any stone unturned and ask the questions. And yeah, I think that's, you know, pertinent to your line of work, for sure.

Was there ever a time that you saw the elephant, but some of the other people in the room didn't and then you. And typically this is what's going to happen anyhow. You'll have the meeting the elephants there and you walk out the door and actually some people will start talking about the elephant. Then others will go, well, I don't remember. I don't remember seeing that or thinking that. And they're totally oblivious to the fact that the elephant was there and. And didn't think twice about how do we deal with that.

Yep. I just need to think about what I see here. We had large national meetings and we were doing a forum, a Q and a forum on a specific topic where I happened to have a fair amount of experience with it, but the other people that were on the panel didn't. So when questions started to come up, I looked to the three of them, but all three of them were looking at me like, hoping that I would answer the question. But I think it was viewed that not everybody knew what they should have about this topic. So, so that, That' in process because there's a lot of different egos at stake and all this sort of stuff, it's. It's very complex. But. But yeah, that was one where it was, you know, and I'm the newest guy to the group, so I'm not going in there banging the drum and pointing out what people know or don't know. But, you know, it is. It is kind of known that there is a bit of a challenge with knowledge on certain topics. So, yeah, that. That's for sure one of them.

Yeah. So it's. It's how you kind of gently impart that knowledge without making people look correct

or feel bad or feel bad.

And that's not always possible. Sometimes you do literally just got to get someone between the eyes saying, there's no, there's no way to make this pretty. That we. We need to talk about this. And actually, no, that's not the way this works. And of course what I would do if I found myself in that situation, I would actually have a follow up conversation with that individual and pour out of respect for them and say, I didn't mean to put you on the spot here, but like this was too important to, to leave it the way it was flying and it needed to be backed up and there literally was an elephant in the room that was going to cause some damage to people.

Yeah. And that, that it takes that bravery to stand up and say that because it's very uncomfortable, especially when it's directed to a singular person.

And, and I would suggest, and I don't know too many times, but if you stand up and talk about the elephant in the room, there actually is an elephant in the room. It's not something that you're the only one that sees. So it's, you should be on the good end of things. If you do speak up, it's again, just dealing with the social dynamics after that they reinforce the fact that you should continue to identify that elephant and encourage others to do the same thing.

Absolutely.

One of the curious things about this whole elephant in the room metaphor is that it's not something that's new, it's not decades old, it's actually centuries old. If you can imagine, I don't know when the first time it came to light in your life where you figured out this whole metaphor about the elephant in the room that actually makes you more aware about these elephants.

I mean, I think when I was younger I'd heard people, you know, bosses and stuff like, let's talk about the elephant in the room. It's like, what is he talking about? You just learn by going through it a few times.

As opposed to the pink elephant, which is something completely different.

Yeah, yeah. They shouldn't bring color into it because this is called an elephant.

Yes, for sure, for sure. Now I alluded to the fact that. Okay. Century. So if I were to tell you that there was a story that was written in 1837 and it was inspired by a 14th century Spanish tale, what does that tell you about how long that elephant's been alive for?

Got a long memory.

Okay. Have you ever heard the Hans Christian Andersen book the Emperor's New Clothes?

Yes, I have heard of it.

Okay. So I'm just going to tell the listeners a little bit about what, what it's about and, and what the whole point is. But I remember this from when I was a kid. Of course, it didn't mean Anything to me when I first heard it, it was. Cool story. It's a fable about a vain emperor who hires two swindlers posing as weavers to create a magnificent suit invisible to anyone stupid or unfit for their office. Don't think of anybody when I'm saying this, please.

No, no, no, no.

At all. Okay, okay, okay. Fearing their incompetent the error and his ministers pretend to see the cloth during a parade, a child shouts that the, that the emperor is naked, breaking the delusion and revealing the truth.

Speaking to the elephant in the room.

Speaking about the elephant in the room. Okay, so there was there the, the whole dynamic where. Okay, getting back to if. Let's say they're the king, they're the president or whatever and truly you're just going to go along with it because that's the right thing to do. And then this, within this story we have literally out of the mouth of babes. And that's the nice thing. We talked about it in a podcast not too long ago where really there, there's no filter with those, these young people and I lay honest. They are brutally honest. And I think that's at times very refreshing to tell them.

Yeah, sometimes it hurts if you're on the other end of it, but just call it as you see it. Right. And again, then if, and I think to your point about, you know, when there's a person of power, that is the elephant in the room, you do need to know how to navigate that because if somebody is, you know, a bit of a power tripper, is super sensitive, that you offend them, that could be your job. So, yeah, you definitely have to be cautious.

Okay, so is there ever a downside to addressing the elephant in the room?

I think there can be. If it hasn't been delivered properly, somebody could take, you know, your quote, unquote input as just an absolute insult or that you're trying to. Yeah, somebody could spin it that way if they're, if they're not comfortable with receiving any type of feedback, be it positive or not. Yeah, they could be very much offended by it. And that wasn't the intent of what you were trying to do by talking about it. But people take things differently and I,

I agree with you totally. And that, and then therein lies that you better have a follow up conversation just to make sure that everything's good. And even though, let's say that during that discussion about the elephant in the room, it might have stung a bit, but you should be, let's say, strong enough to handle that and have broader shoulders, because at the end of the day, if you accept that, you're going to be a better individual for it.

And again, the delivery is key because if you're bringing it out in front of a group of people and it happens not to come off like you mean it and more, maybe more of a joke, it's going to just make the whole situation a disaster as opposed to pulling that person off to the side after and say, hey, listen, I noticed this. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They might take that a little bit better because they're not being kind of roasted in front of their peer group or whatnot.

Unless. No, I won't even say that. But I was going to say, unless, of course, you think they can handle it. But then we all live in a glass house, as I've mentioned before, too, and you wouldn't want to wish that up on anybody. You really won't. Because. And I, I think it's fair to say most people are acting with the best of intentions any given day, for sure.

Yep.

So how can we tackle some of these element, Maddog?

I think we've kind of danced around it. It's just having the bravery to bring something up. And my only advice would just be cautious in your delivery because it might have the best of intent. But if the delivery isn't there, it could be very hurtful.

Very good advice. Very good advice. Here's some thoughts that go along with that. Acknowledge the problem. The first step is to recognize and name the elephant. Don't ignore it any longer. Just bring it to life and let everybody talk about it. And you might even phrase it, hey, does anybody see any elephants in the room? Then again, if you're the new kid in the block, you're going, what were they talking about?

Yeah, I should be quiet here and let other people answer first. Yes. Because you might lead with the wrong thing.

Here's something that. And of course, we've been dancing around this and be direct, but be kind or be professional, I would say, too, depending on what the situation. Approach the conversation with empathy and openness. And these are not things that happen right away. They come with practice as well. Focus on the issue, not the person. Avoid making the conversation personal.

Yeah, that's where it gets slippery. And so you really have to rehearse what you're going to say before you blurt it out. Because. Yeah, that's. And again, it's, it's. I think it's the bravery to bring it up, but at the same time, the Having a cautious nature as to not offend somebody. I think those two things blended. You hopefully should be able to get some success.

I again, I agree with you, Mad Dog. That's. That's fantastic. One of the things I do want the listeners to to completely understand this. Be prepared for a difficult conversation. Accept that the conversation may be uncomfortable but necessary.

You can't just lob a bomb in and make a comment and not be willing to follow it up with a discussion or feedback.

Yeah, it and again like the more you do it, don't do it out of practice. There's got to be a legitimate elephant that is there's always the small elephants that really are non issues. You can let what note those is fine. But keep in mind if that elephant is literally standing on your foot, you better say something.

Yes, you should.

Now, I don't know if I want to end the episode this way. You tell me what you think. I think I see the elephant in the room or they say that mutual music is telling us or is the music.

No, I think by addressing the music that says that it's the elephant.

So sounds like I think you should

be brave and address that.

Ultimately, although it is uncomfortable, addressing the elephant in the room is crucial for building trust, improving communication and solving problems. Anything you want to add to that, Mad Dog? Nope. Nope.

I just, I. I do agree that encourage people to be brave, but remember you're talking to a human, so just have a little bit of respect in your delivery and just tread a little bit lightly. You don't need to fire a shotgun right away.

Yeah. And I guess, and I agree with you and I guess, like it doesn't matter how many times you've done it, it's still going to be. You got to do it with, I'll say caution and empathy and respect for sure. Remember to take advantage of the moment before the moment takes advantage of you. To learn more about Ewalkabout, please visit us at Ewalkabout,ca.

Nice.