[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to how to be human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: On this episode, Anna and I discuss victimhood.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat clear mind and let's chat.

[00:00:21] Nina Endrst: Hello.

[00:00:23] Anna Toonk: Hello. I like sometimes when you do your hello and it, it sounds like your radio voice or something, you know, you're

[00:00:32] Nina Endrst: doing

[00:00:33] Anna Toonk: hello, you're joining in Indiana or I dunno what are are like, yes.

[00:00:39] Nina Endrst: Listen, the one professional moment I have. I start swearing almost immediately after my delicate. Hello. So

[00:00:50] Anna Toonk: allow you a hello,

[00:00:53] Nina Endrst: a graceful entry.

So this is going to be an interesting topic.

[00:00:59] Anna Toonk: Yeah. You know, it's, it's funny because I feel a victim of my own behavior today of I apparently my family and I, we love to go hard for Easter. Mike. Well, you know, my brother is sober, but my mom and I like made up for him and it was a really good time, but I was like, got home at like 10 o'clock class and was like, well, w like Y Y you know, we chose violence apparently like against ourselves, you know, and this morning I woke up and was like, oh, you know, so

[00:01:38] Nina Endrst: at least stick to the blood of Christ.

[00:01:40] Anna Toonk: And I, you know, I was freshly out. So I, well, I mean, you know, rosé some might say is, you know, Yeah. So I was drinking rosé and then, because that is not, and my mom and I made that classic mistake as well of when, you know, the lovely server was like, which I'm like a bottle. We were like, oh no, like we're not gonna, like, it's not that I always look the bottle.

I know. And that probably. You know, cause when you just ordering those glass, we probably had three glasses of wine and then went and had cocktails on a Sunday, which is so not me that like. Oh, and then my super was like knocking on my door and I know, and I, I didn't take my makeup off last night cause I forgot I'd worn makeup.

And I know she miserably coiled when I opened my door. So you didn't take your makeup off? No, I literally forgot. I had worn it. You know, like I literally forgot I wash your face at night. I mean, usually yes, but I think I fell asleep. I did my twenties last night. I, um, I was like, I'm so cold when I got home.

So I got under my electric blanket, fell asleep and did a prenup on the sofa and then woke up confused and moved to bed. Yes, I'm in my forties, in case you were wondering, and not a teenager or college student and then gotten to bed and then woke up. I was laying there going, wow. Tide going on and then heard the knocking and was like, oh shit forgot.

I was brawlers and um, it looks like a raccoon and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So what are we talking about today? Uh, victim hood. Uh,

[00:03:39] Nina Endrst: I've gotten requests for this specifically. I might have to tell my parents not to listen to this

[00:03:44] Anna Toonk: episode. It's funny, you know, like how you can do, like, you know, like trigger warnings or like content warnings.

It's like you and I need special ones. I mean, I just based on like, my mom's like, I posted too many of the same photo to my Instagram. Can you delete them? I was like, just like in my head, like, how do you, some moms, like my mom's like, don't make fun of me. You know how I am with these things. I'm like, Help me help you.

Like, what's even the logic of thinking. I could just like snap my fingers and delete that, you know? So I don't have to worry about her listening to the pod, but I think that we'd need, we do need like parental warnings of like, or, or are you related to us? Don't listen to this one. Yeah. So when I first Googled victim HUD, Oxford languages was super helpful and said, The state of being a victim and I was like, cool, really helpful.

So then I went to the Cambridge dictionary and victim hood known the condition of having been hurt, damaged, or made to suffer, especially when you want people to feel sorry for you because of this, or use it as an excuse for something. Example, despite his personal losses, Paul carries himself without a hint of victim hood.

These bloody terror attacks, forged a bond of victimhood, uh, between the inhabitants of Paris and London. Yeah. Yeah. It's really, so I've told you. About this podcast. I really liked, um, strangers that we town dead and she's got a Patrion. And so Saturday I got a chance to listen to the new series she's doing and releasing on our Patriot on.

And a lot of it's sort of processing this time in her life when a lot of bad shit happened and. She was one of the people who really created the, or brought the moth into what it is. And when she did that, she got ousted. And at the same time her fiance left her and she found out, had been cheating on her.

So she left New York and went to LA and you know, a lot when I found her work, a lot of it was, and this is like seven years ago was this was still a lot about like, Processing that, and it, and like her feelings around failure and like all these different things. And she basically did a, it was so interesting to find it.

She had like a whole episode where she went back to various healers and people she saw at that time and interviewed them. And this one woman who did body work was like talking about victimhood and said it doesn't allow contact when you're in that mode. There's no real communicating only masticating again and against something it's tricky because helplessness and victim mode hide a lot of pain that has to be worked through.

I was really struck by that because for me, it really articulated something about victimhood that I think is tricky of like, If you're in V like if you're in that mode, I think nine times out of 10, you, you deserve to be, you know, something has happened. But when that, something about when she said, or when I heard it doesn't allow contact, like really articulated for me, something that makes.

Victim hood so uncomfortable of either when a friend is in that place and in, you know, as maybe seeking comfort or support and, you know, leaning on you or when you're in that place. Something about, I think that like that isolation has always been really uncomfortable for me with it. Yeah, you think about,

[00:07:50] Nina Endrst: I th well, I read something interesting that it said a victimhood can become a part of a person's identity, but it is a learned behavior can be changed.

It often evolves as a defense mechanism to cope with adverse life events, people who constantly blame other people or situations for the events in their lives have victim mentality. So. I think of it less as people who are actually victims of things. Not that they haven't been, obviously we all have been victimized in some way, but less that.

And actually, and, and more someone who has taken things that I would consider kind of mostly normal life stuff and decided that. Unlucky things are bad. Things only

[00:08:43] Anna Toonk: happen to them. I agree. Yes. I agree. I have very little patience for people who think they cornered the market on sadness or bad things. And I remember one trademark trademark, so only meat or.

Guy and school who would always, you know, like kind of be like, well, I want to say his mom had died. And he was like, well, cause my mom died, my mom died. And I was like, well, my dad died. What else do you got next? You know, this sounds

[00:09:14] Nina Endrst: like something, someone in my family

[00:09:16] Anna Toonk: would say, you know, cause I just was like every, like, it was like, no matter what someone brought up to him, it just always was about like his mom dying, you know?

And I do. That they're probably like, even though I know me at the time was reacting to feeling like it, that was an excuse he was making, you know, I think it's complicated in that like maybe the mom's death is like, what kicked it off, you know? But then what continued to happen or get like, then it became like his, his.

Yeah, I became his personality or like, like default, you know, totally. That I think is like really dangerous, you know, like, Because it is that simple, you know, and

[00:10:15] Nina Endrst: also like one of, so again, separating having a traumatic event, obviously separating that for a moment. You know, when I was growing up, my dad would constantly, I mean, it was just really.

Uh, he would just come home and be like, well, this person and that person, you know, kind like the, the world's out to get him. That's what he thought. And I was just like, when I got to an age where it dawned on me, I'm like, could this, could you be the common denominator? Like, could that be, I think we all have.

Those moments, right? I mean, I know I have with men or, or jobs or whatever, you know, it's like at some point we have to look at our shit and, and be like, how am I playing a part in this? But the, but there are people who. Really, I find it fascinating who, who really use it as a way to not move at all.

[00:11:27] Anna Toonk: Do you think side. Something happens, you know, like traumatic event happens, you know, you're victimized essentially. And in the trying to process that or whatever, it's like becomes easier to just like, think. Only bad things are going to happen. Like, do you think we embrace or kind of slip into victim hood sometimes as a way?

Like, is it almost like a form of skepticism that becomes like protection of like. Uh, you know, I don't understand why this bad thing happened to me. So rather than like processing it, I'm going to assume it's just because bad things happen to me. So then now I'm going to expect that, you know, like,

[00:12:11] Nina Endrst: yeah, almost, almost like as a way to control to like, at least I know the

[00:12:15] Anna Toonk: outcome.

Yeah. Please explanation versus going, who knows, like, who knows why that happened? You know, or like what's the,

[00:12:25] Nina Endrst: or what, I don't know, sometimes. It's hard to separate like this from like paranoia too, you know? I mean, not like clinical paranoia, but, and I think of, you know, when I was actually victimized right.

The time, like the one thing that stands out in my mind, I mean, do I like really dislike most men? Yeah, I do. But for many reasons, I do. I expect to be a victim of most men. I mean, kinda, but that's like data, you know what I mean? I don't feel like I am in victim mentality. Because of that, I do feel a little paranoid.

Like I don't trust men. I don't trust strangers. I don't trust men who are strangers, you know? And so I think it's like, you have to do a little digging for yourself of it would be nice to walk out and be Pollyanna about it and be like, well, you know, that just happened that one time and people are good, but the reality is.

Many women are victimized every single day by men. So it would, it's a reasonable thing to feel, you know, not safe right in that. But yeah, them hood would be like, I can't, for me, this is my opinion would be like, men are only doing this to me. Like I'm the only one that like really like making it, so everything being so personal and single.

[00:13:48] Anna Toonk: Yes. I think that making it personal and singular and almost like all roads lead back to it, you know, like, I, if someone's like, I'm not a big fan of ax, I'm like, okay, cool. Like, unless it's something that like, you know, I don't know if someone's like, I'm not a big fan of like breathing. I'm like, well, you know, but for like the most part I'm like have to, I'm like good luck with that, you know, like, let me know.

I don't care, you know, like fine. But like when someone's constantly, like, I don't want to go into that store cause there's a bunch of men in there and like, yeah, that's something totally about that also makes me uncomfortable because I think also too, To your point about like the paranoia or something.

I find a lot of times when people are sort of existing in that space and just sort of living in it have set up like camp in it that it becomes very convenient to where they're never challenging. You know, they're never asking like the coworker, like, did you mean to be a Dick? Or like, did I misunderstand you?

You know, like it's shocking how many times people are like, not trying to hurt you. You know, and I know for me, like, I really I've, most of my life have really like run from the label of like victim. I've like really tried not to be in a place of victim mode, but I know at times, like my pain was just so much that I absolutely was, you know, like I absolutely was existing in that place of just assuming everybody was treating me poorly.

And like I was being victimized by the world, you know? And like, of course that barista was just rude to me. Cause people think they could be rude to me or whatever versus going, like maybe the person before me had been a jerk to her, you know, like who know like, and just sort of it's being a fucking barista.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. She's like, it doesn't matter what time of year it is. I'm sweating. Thanks to this, you know, like that, I think that. It becomes like a, something about like, again, that quote, like when she was saying like, it's the inability to connect as well, that. I find, I find when people are in victim hood or really self-pitying is very triggering for me.

I'm not a big fan of it. I tend to like go from those people. Like even if they deserve to be and something I've noticed with people, like, I don't want to brag, but like I've had a lot of trauma in my life and I've yeah, I've had a lot of traumatic events and. Pretty thinking about

[00:16:41] Nina Endrst: that, that was going to sleep the other night.

About how much? I swear to God, about how

[00:16:45] Anna Toonk: much time. I mean, it's like really nice. Like I

[00:16:49] Nina Endrst: appreciate that. Yeah.

[00:16:54] Anna Toonk: And I, and I forget it all the time, you know, to be honest. And sometimes when I'm being really hard on myself and like, why haven't I done this? Or why haven't I done that? And I'm like, not for nothing, but you had like a lot of drama, you know, and had to sift through that.

And like, and it never, I mean, I've only had very small windows in my life when something like didn't happen to be honest. And I think I do. I think I do feel a sense of pride that I don't descend into victim hood. You know, like I don't think it makes me better than anyone, but I think I feel proud of myself that I don't, you know, that I'm like, I'm not gonna let things take that from me or take my life from me.

Like I'm still gonna like thrive and be a silly clown and do the things that I want to do. I've noticed with friends sometimes because I tend to be the person that everybody comes to when they're going through drama. Cause they're like, you seem to know something about this and I'm like, come with me friend.

Like it's a real, real cookie right now. You know? Like it's so hard for us to move on when something happens to us, which is not a hot take, but. I think that when something traumatic happens, you do already feel isolated, you know, like. Yeah, everybody else is living their life or everything's going on. And you're like, this thing happened to me and I don't know how to be in the world right now because of it.

And I've seen with friends sometimes when they're moving past, maybe they're like the initial sort of, of like something's happened. And it's the crisis mode, you know, once that sort of moved on once, maybe the crowd sort of dissipated, you don't have like the initial support system, a lot of friends, almost like.

Doubled down, you know? Cause I think it's like their brains just can't accept that. Bad things happen to us and we have to move on that. Like, we don't get a prize. We don't, you don't like we don't get a shout out on the news. You know? Like the, I think we all, all of us cannot believe that like, uh, like a close friend of mine struggled about like when her partner had had an accident.

Cause I think like, she just was like, how. You know, and I remember feeling that way, like when my dad died, I've seen people like going about their days and like wanting to scream and be like, how are you going back today? Yeah. Yeah. Like my dad died. Like I just, I remember that feeling of like how you feel and I hear echoes of it.

And I think that like, For me, there's something about that relationship of like trauma tends to be isolating and then like victim hood is isolating. Like it's like this continuation of keeping us in what I think is also a really painful part of trauma.

[00:19:47] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I also feel like perspective has so much to do or has changed my.

Oh relationship and also helped me maybe not have more patients because I really don't have a lot of patients for it. I really don't. I have patients for obviously all the patients for anyone who is suffering from a traumatic event, what I get burnt out on because I was exposed to so much of it too, as a kid is.

The shifting of blame or the not realizing that like, it literally happens too. And I actually feel so sensitive about even saying this because I don't like or agree with, well, somebody has it worse. Like that's not what I'm talking about. Yeah. At all. But at a certain point, We do have to recognize what we, what we have and what's going well and how we're healing and how, you know, things are happening to some sort of positive end.

And I'm really talking about like the smaller stuff in life. You know, I'm not talking about major grief and things, but I'm talking about feeling like things are never going right for you and not asking questions. About how we're participating in things that aren't going, right. Yeah. And also like what else other people are going through, you know, and how that might be affecting the dynamic or what we think we're being victimized by.

[00:21:28] Anna Toonk: I think you're bringing. Oh really beautiful point because it's like comparison sucks, but perspective is healing. And many times when I've gone down that path and been like, nothing's good, fuck my life. You know, like, blah, blah, blah. That didn't help me. Like, it didn't feel good that certainly, like, I felt it's junk food.

It feels good for a split second. It feels good for a split second. Like I think for me, sometimes it can be tricky for me to like really acknowledge and feel my circumstances. So sometimes that can be helpful for me to kind of go, I'm not happy this isn't working. I feel bad, you know, like can be helpful for me.

But then sometimes I think it's like, I, I keep like doubling down and I've had the. Link. It's one thing to like, give yourself a weekend to be like, to wallow and be like, I'm sad. This feels bad. Or, you know, I do have feelings about as acts I haven't let go of or whatever, whatever it is, it's you, you know, or just sort of chewing on, I think like giving yourself a period of time to really like steep yourself in it can be helpful.

But then the second I go, okay, you've like really, really beat this drama of late. Everything sucks, you know, but I don't think that that's actually, what's true and made myself look at like, where is there evidence of love? And I'm like, look at what this person did for you. Or think about how this person reached out to you yesterday and said this lovely thing, or think about this or whatever he is.

It's hard in like that also comes with, like, I think its own sort of pain in a way of like, uh, being hopeful or being willing to see that, or like explode your brain by not being in, you know, black and white thinking. It's it's what has pulled me out of that, you know, and I do think that it sucks sometimes when people are really stuck in victim hood or just have made it their personality, or like forgotten the separation.

And now it has become their personality that. You don't really want to help them. It gets to a point where you're just like you can't, you're annoying.

[00:23:52] Nina Endrst: you just can't help them because there's no, there is no way to help somebody. Who's not open to being helped or to seeing the. Alternative like, you know, way of thinking or just another option. I was in my victim feelings last week and I feel the same way as you in that. I think that. I tried so hard not to be a victim that I have.

I find it really hard to like, feel my feelings sometimes and be like, you are not feeling good about this. This is making you sad. That's okay. You know, but I was having a little tantrum about. Like a couple of things. And one of them was this, you know, like literal high school bullshit. And I was like, and I literally had to look at myself in the mirror and be like, what's hurting your feelings right now.

You're you're hurt because you weren't invited to something that you didn't want to go.

[00:24:49] Anna Toonk: I know where you talking to me, I feel like I've had this exact pep talk.

[00:24:54] Nina Endrst: Let me just get that straight. Like, I just want the facts. If you were invited to this thing, would you have gone? No,

[00:25:03] Anna Toonk: we're being so devastated.

Let's get on the

[00:25:05] Nina Endrst: record. How dare they like so incredibly thoughtless. Unbelievable after everything I've done for them. Okay. To invite me to something I wasn't going to go to so rude. So I'm like talking to myself in the mirror. I'm like, you wouldn't have gone. You haven't spoken to this person. In a long time, but I was in the comparison of like, I know he hasn't talked to all of these people in the longer time than he's talked to me and he used to come visit me in Mexico.

And, oh, I guess I was cool when I lived in Mexico, but as soon as I had a baby, not so cool anymore. Right now it's the bros club again and blah, blah, blah. Like this is, this is the

[00:25:45] Anna Toonk: dialogue. Yup. Yup. Yup. I'm definitely

[00:25:48] Nina Endrst: Nina Nina, like, hold on.

[00:25:51] Anna Toonk: I just have a good friend, Fred and my

[00:25:55] Nina Endrst: friends. I'm a great, excellent friend top notch.

So I'm like what a waste of all of these years. I've known these people since I was fucking five years old. And then I'm like, can you believe, what does that, what you think friends are? I can't believe you thought that's what friends were. So I'm just like, oh,

[00:26:13] Anna Toonk: Then you turn on yourself too. Yeah. So

[00:26:17] Nina Endrst: I, I decided to like talk it out and then I'm like, okay, I'm going to let this one go because it's, it's just, it's over.

You've had the talk and I go to a Pilates class and. Me like, uh, such an awesome person who I click with immediately. And I leave like laughing my ass off. I'm like right here, I am thinking like, that's where my mind is or that's where my friend is. But, but it's like, you don't live there anymore. Like physically, emotionally.

That's okay. Like you've moved, you've long moved on and like here's, what's available to you and this is what you actually want. So that's the gift, you know, and it was just really, I have to have a sense of humor about all of it, as I know, that's why, one of the reasons why we connect so well, because I think because we just both have this kind of dark sense of humor.

But also just, it gets us through a lot, you know, and not in a, not in a way to bypass, but just to be like the absurdity, like it's absurd. Yes. I mean, well,

[00:27:32] Anna Toonk: yeah, usually at some point when I'm really spiraling out, I started laughing at myself. Yeah, you've put on some performances, but this is truly seen and see yeah.

Where I'm just like, you are truly a crazy person at some point or, you know, and all I do you find that like I find for me with, with victimhood and like something I was hearing in your story is like this tendency to think in like absolutes, you know, And it's like, we'll focus on this one person of like, they didn't invite me or they didn't, you know, which essentially is feeling left out, which is essentially tapping our senses of belonging.

You know, it's like nothing's ever, nothing's ever fucking chill in this life. You know, if you're a human being, you're like, oh, I thought I was just pissed. I didn't get invited to this like dumb thing. Nope. It was like, it was tapping all this stuff much below the surface that we can't think too much about.

Otherwise we'd never do anything. It's like, oh, cool, cool. That's what we're all doing all the time. And I'll be like, no one ever likes me. I don't have friends, you know? And I'll be like, oh, what about the people you blew off last week? And I'm like, no, no, no, no brain. We're going to conveniently delete those.

You know, like, I love the absolutes. You can

[00:28:50] Nina Endrst: go into my friend life. Like, that's like what? Uh, like that's, that's where I go. Yup.

[00:28:57] Anna Toonk: So crazy to me. Like, do you, what do you think is the relationship. Between, I'm going to this hot talent. I'm excited. Victim hood and narcissism. Ooh.

[00:29:10] Nina Endrst: I mean, listen, I came in hot and like, in my mind, that's where I started.

This was like, I, I, they are, they're married. They're naked together. They're they?

[00:29:24] Anna Toonk: Oh my God.

[00:29:26] Nina Endrst: This is rated R this podcast. I think. R. So the way I learned of them, they are very closely linked. And I agree. I agree. And that's why I don't have patients because saying do narcissism. I don't know that anyone does it, but I just, I spot it like immediately.

I'd like to think, and even if I choose to engage with it, I know it's there. And I just am like, motherfucker. No, you are not the only person in the universe. You

[00:30:00] Anna Toonk: think that's why even if someone is deserving of their victim hood, you know, like, I think we've all met that person who just tells you their life story.

And you're like, yikes. Yeah. Like just like, wow. The fact that you're like, Standing here talking to me, seems like some sort of miracle, you know, that they're standing in some way

and you're like, but you're like, I want nothing to do with you, you know? And it's not because I think you're like tainted by trauma or anything, but it's like, I find some time. Whether, whether or not they are an actual narcissist, I think the word narcissist it's thrown around way too, you know, way too often.

And it was funny. I was listening to a podcast where the woman was like, oh yeah, everyone wants to think their acts is like a narcissist sociopath or psychopath. She was like, you should be so lucky. She's like, unfortunately that's such a small percentage of our, part of our population. And I was like, She's like most people just garden variety, like suck.

I'm like, oh no, you know,

[00:31:05] Nina Endrst: qualities.

[00:31:06] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Well, well, and that's something that you were talking about as well as like the spectrum of narcissism, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, even if all people who have. You know, settled and moved into victim hood aren't narcissist. There is something I think so narcissistic about thinking kind of like your, the only person hurting or your, the only person something bad has happened to, or like that.

Now every person who meets you something's you something. Yeah. Or my mom was good about that in regards to my dad's death, where she was sort of like y'all are not getting you. This as an excuse, you know, like you can, you can be upset and be in pain and you, like, you can have feelings, but like, I'm not gonna let y'all blame your dad's death for anything, you know?

And it felt harsh at the time. But I do think it was really smart. You know, like my mom has some, some hot takes sometimes that light. I

[00:32:09] Nina Endrst: agree. I think that's a good, you know, it's because how is that helping your kid.

[00:32:15] Anna Toonk: I also think sometimes like stuff that, you know, she said that felt like kind of brutal at the time, like as an adult, when I've been like, what was that about the, you know, like, what was your goal with that?

Like, and I asked her about it and she's like, well, I, I did want y'all to like, feel it, like, I didn't want y'all to. Like, I, I did feel a sense of like this bad thing had happened to y'all at such a young age. And I didn't want the rest of your life to be like about saying your dad died. You know? Like she felt really strongly about that.

And that's so hard to like, think about like in a surviving parent, you know, like, fuck, like, what am I going to do? Like, you know, she didn't want it to define

[00:32:55] Nina Endrst: you. I think that like, yeah, that's pretty. You know, powerful because it's a, it's a huge part of your story, obviously, but it's not

[00:33:05] Anna Toonk: how you are. Yeah.

And to have that like awareness at that time, I think was interesting. And, you know, like I think she went a little too far the other direction and she was like, I don't want anyone to piteous. I don't want, like, you know, like she definitely went a little bit too far the other direction, but like, some of that was also too, cause she's like, I wanted us to have privacy.

I didn't want any very, everybody watching us. I wanted us to be able to grieve the way that we wanted you and needed to. And I was like, That's really interesting, you know, and she's like, and I didn't want y'all to feel like labeled or something that like, because your dad had died, like y'all were going to be like the sad kids or something.

And I was like, huh, that's really interesting. And I don't think we felt that way. You know, like I th I, I think a lot of her, like how she communicated it and, you know, like I have notes, but like the intention and what she was trying to do, I think was. Really incredible on her part. And I'm grateful for it with some of that stuff of her being like, yes, this is terrible, but we're going to get through it.

And like, it doesn't define you, I think was really helpful because. I think it is so easy to get stuck in that and then want the world to get so confused. Cause you're like you're giving, you're energizing the wound all the time, you know, like if you're kind of existing that way. So it, it does, you're just feeding it and feeding it and it's like, I do think you become more and more confused as to what.

Alicia

[00:34:50] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I also think you a huge part of being actually a victim of something really, and truly like you, you want and need people to be empathetic right around you and you start to lose that naturally because people move on, unfortunately, but I think. As somebody who is very much hyper-focused on that, they are a victim.

Like you, it's almost like the girl who cried. Boy who cried Wolf type of energy, where you're like, there's something always not with obviously a death, but if something's like always wrong or something's always happening, then it's hard to discern. Like when they actually really need that. Help or that moment or the space help because it's like, but it's always happening.

[00:35:42] Anna Toonk: I think you're right. I think that is a bit the boy who cried Wolf. Like imagine if every time I like was sad or just like had some feelings, you know, and you were like, what's up. I was like, I'm just having a bad dead dad day, you know? Like you wouldn't really know what that meant. You know, like just having a bed,

[00:36:04] Nina Endrst: it's not funny, but like, I am an incredibly empathetic person and I feel deeply, and I just couldn't there there's a, there's a little case study.

Now

[00:36:14] Anna Toonk: you could be in like a month and then you would be like, I got to know what your like, Baghdad dead, dead, dead dad day means like you would be link. Does that just mean you're sad. Like you would be like, you wouldn't lack empathy, but you would be. I'm going to need more. At this point,

[00:36:32] Nina Endrst: we've been exercising this for a month.

This muscle must be tired. So there, I want to be very clear that I don't discuss clients like hardly ever and would never in a public setting, but there's one like particular person who I've worked with many, many years ago that I will obviously not name who's like a case study and especially for this.

So this person. When I first met her, I picked up the phone and she like literally vomited all of her trauma. Like, I mean, like, and then I was five and then I was six and then I was seven and I was eight. I was just like, I mean, for an hour straight, she just talked about her drama and I was like, wow. And I remember to your earlier thinking.

This woman's life like how this is a lot of intense, like intense trauma, like all of her life. And so I had so much, so much compassion and empathy for her, and we started working together and I realized very quickly that wasn't going to work for many reasons, but one of them, because. She literally didn't listen to anything that I would say, because she would constantly be talking about something now, recent something happened, how she was a victim of it, like this, this, this, like she crying.

Like I was like, you need, you know, probably some, you know, psychiatric help as well. She. I would call on all of these different healers. And they would like fire her because they were like, like a breathwork teacher was like, you don't want breath work. Like you want something else, you know? And I don't know what it is, but I can't help you.

And I just watched all of these things like happen and happen. And what's fascinating about her is she ended up becoming part of Q Anon,

[00:38:29] Anna Toonk: not surprising,

[00:38:30] Nina Endrst: not at all. And, uh, but it really, it was, but it also was like, It, it just made so much sense.

[00:38:39] Anna Toonk: Yeah. A lot of people with trauma that ankle's totally,

[00:38:43] Nina Endrst: and she surge to regurgitate.

And that's how I found out about QTC. Cause she told me and like she was doing and thinking, and I was like noodle and was like, oh, this shit is crazy. And then it blew up obviously. But my point is. It was like a wall that there's no, there was just nothing could penetrate it. Yeah. Nothing because that's all she knew was that she was a victim of something every single day, all day.

And that was the life that she was living in. And that was the lens, which through, she saw everything through it saw she saw everything from morning.

[00:39:22] Anna Toonk: Yeah, it's so uncomfortable. It's really sad. And I think on some level too, we know that it's not true. So we know that this is not reality, you know,

[00:39:38] Nina Endrst: but it also just became, so it's so like, Everything was like, you're, you're not seeing like so many things and it just became, everything was about her all the time.

And that's what I couldn't stand. I'm like everybody has bad days. Everybody has horrible things. Well, a lot of most people have horrible things happen to them, but for every single day of your life, uh, 40 years old to be like, so self indulgent. And so much about how the world is wronging you from like a coffee to why I don't have a boat.

Like, literally these are like, if they have boats and I don't have a boat and I'm like, well, okay, that, that stuff is just really taxing on people.

[00:40:28] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Well, it's also just like, The way that the, the world works. It, it there's something, there seems to be something about victim hood that it starts to translate into some sort of link flawed equation.

Like, oh, I have this happen to me. Therefore I deserve the above, you know, like, and it's like, no, it doesn't doesn't work that way. That's not how that works. You know, like, So I don't

[00:40:59] Nina Endrst: think they don't let me know. Not millennials. The gen Z gen Z is out there.

[00:41:04] Anna Toonk: I think so.

[00:41:05] Nina Endrst: Okay. So I have a question for you.

How much do you think entitlement and victimhood sit together and how much do you think that is affecting the younger generation?

[00:41:22] Anna Toonk: I do think they, they go together. I think they have some kind of relationship. I'm not sure what it is, you know, like I think that people. I don't know if its like, you know, growing up, seeing the commercials of like, you know, have you been a victim of like, you may be entitled to compensation, like get your car.

Yeah. Like, I don't know if it's because of like the litigious nature of the us or what that we tend to be like. Like, if something bad happened, then we deserve something, you know? And I do think, I wonder sometimes like, you know, often trauma and victimization comes with shame. So. We're in shame sucks. And Shane feels really bad.

Do people, instead of feeling shame sometimes to fall into entitlement, you know, like rather than thinking that I'm marked by this bad thing that happened to me, is it easier to then say like this bad thing happened to me in the world? Did to me to make it right. You know, like, is that a different way?

Some people go, but I think that there is a relationship for sure between entitlement and victim hood or can be like, I think also to link. Cause I mean, Victimhood. And I think also like advocating or like personal responsibility or, you know, like things or like your own voice agency and things to like, get confusing that I've heard.

And I know for myself sometimes that I maybe like, didn't want to self-advocate or say something, but I would then be a little, like, this thing happened to me. So I'm going to do this, you know, like I felt entitled to do something. You know, good or bad, you know, like, and they were definitely unrelated.

Yeah. And they were unrelated, you know, and there was some level of awareness in my head, you know, there was some level of choice. This thing happened to me. So I am doing this, you know, or I feel in T you know, like it wasn't always like bad or like, you know, this bad thing happened to me. So I feel entitled to like, you know, Rob a store or somebody like, no, they wasn't only did that a couple of times, you know, only a few times, but, you know, it's like no different than, than like you had a bad day at work.

So like, you're like, I'm going to order takeout. You know, I deserve tout, you know, It's the, I would say it's, it's like a version of that, you know, that, and I had an awareness of it, but I think that that's something too. I had to start challenging myself on and being like, that's not really how that works.

I'm like, does it matter? Like just cause of it. Like, I don't think that's how it works.

[00:44:12] Nina Endrst: Uh, I feel confused about, because obviously our generation went through a lot of shit, you know, we've seen a lot of stuff collectively, but this younger generation, somehow they feel like they have less tools, even though they have more tools and am just trying to figure out.

Ha, because a lot of them, I feel like are speaking as if, you know, they've been kind of wronged, which they have, cause they kind of inherited like a shitty, you know, worlds a lot of ways and they're trying to change stuff. And I really appreciate that aspect when the. Stuff happens to me, or I feel like stuff happens to me and entitlement meat, and then they, they think that what I see a lot of them doing is like, I'm just gonna take, take, take, take, take, take, take.

And the rules don't apply to me because I feel like the world owes me something. That's where I'm like, wait, what's happening here. And it seems like it's happening. Too many of them.

[00:45:23] Anna Toonk: Yeah. It also like, kind of comes back to like two wrongs. Don't make a right. You know, like every generation has had something happen. Every generation you don't like. And that's where like, comparison doesn't serve any of us, you know, like, but there's something there's a term. I can't remember it, of course right now that that's like of a different form of entitlement, of like the people who were like, I didn't get help with my student loans.

So like, why should we get rid of them? You know? It's like, I forget what it's a form of, of like, uh, like reverse entitlement or something. But it's like that doesn't, that's not how beginning. Like, ideally it's like, we're working to figure out how to make education free for all. Like, it sucks if you didn't get to participate in that, but like that's that ultimately will help all of us.

Like that's

[00:46:12] Nina Endrst: the fucking, that's how progress works. Yeah. And I do think it's

[00:46:16] Anna Toonk: tough. I mean, I have a hard time sometimes, like people who can be really triggering for me are. Adults people that say 30 and up who've clearly never had anything bad happened to them before in their lives. And when the first bad thing does, and they're like, oh, hang on.

I didn't even know that that's going to how man. And I'm like kind of my whole life, you know? Yeah. And you're like, yes, bad things can happen shattered. Yeah, totally. And I'm just like, and I find sometimes they can be the worst in, in, in my opinion. And it's. I mean, like, I'm like, oh God, how would I roll with something?

If nothing bad has ever happened to me. And then it did as an adult. And then I'm also just like, but where's also the gratitude that like nothing had happened until now. You know, like, yeah, it's kind of like the two for, but like, those are people that can be tricky for me.

[00:47:14] Nina Endrst: There's a few like signs that I wanted to share with people or like common, you know, victim mentality as we

[00:47:24] Anna Toonk: wrap it up, let's do it.

So, number

[00:47:26] Nina Endrst: one is you feel powerless, unable to solve a problem or cope effectively with it, just like a standard problem. You tend to see your problems as catastrophes. That's a big one. Is it a problem or is it a catastrophe? You tend to think others are purposefully trying to hurt you. You believe you are alone and targeted for

[00:47:53] Anna Toonk: mistreatment targeted as interesting.

Don't

[00:47:58] Nina Endrst: you know?

[00:47:59] Anna Toonk: Yeah. And I would say if you're white and feel targeted, you're probably not wrong. You are

[00:48:06] Nina Endrst: wrong. If you think you are not you're wrong.

[00:48:11] Anna Toonk: If you're not white and feel targeted, you are probably correct. And I don't know how victim hood and like systemic forms of oppression. I don't know what the answer is to that, you know, so, because you're not wrong, you have been victimized.

So I'm not sure how you avoid victim hood. If you are someone subjected to that. But I think these are really good signs for like the average person who maybe isn't dealing with systemic forms of oppression to check in and go, am I just sending you to somewhere? I don't want to be.

[00:48:44] Nina Endrst: Yeah. It's like, I hope it's clear as day that we're not talking about people who are actually.

You know, day in, day out, generations, hundreds, thousands of years, oppressed and victimized that we're talking about. This mentality that's very different. And, you know, being a victim is a very serious thing that you, you know, deserve to feel and work through. And that's not what we're here to talk or judge anyone on, but there's another piece of this.

For people, I think that have been victims. You hold tightly to thoughts and feelings related to being a victim. You also may refuse to consider other perspectives for how to think about and for how to cope with your problems as a victim, you feel compelled to keep painful memories alive, not forget and take revenge.

Revenge is a good one, which I guess. Um, yeah, like, um, if there were no consequences and I have Elizabeth great person, I was taking her ranch on

[00:49:52] Anna Toonk: money. I have a lot of revenge fantasies, but I do think, especially when you have no new information, when you keep replaying a story, Yeah. Not, not always a good sign, regardless of yeah.

Got it sucks. Even like, even when it's justified, even if your anger or pain are the worst, the worst,

[00:50:17] Nina Endrst: and truly, I don't know how you felt, but like we're losing when we hold on, you know, to something and live it as if. Us, we're giving the power over to what happened or who did it, or there's gotta be a way to disengage from it in some way to heal it.

And, but also to give yourself back ourselves back this life that has been lost, even if it's, if it's a little piece of it's a giant piece, like how do you. How do you reclaim part of yourself? You know, if you don't, you just are kind of, all of these bits of you are floating outside and you're going to give the power to like the girl who was rude to you at the coffee shop, you know, I mean, I've done it, I get it.

But was it really about you? Did she even see you, you know,

[00:51:19] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Yeah. It's very true. I would offer anyone who's maybe struggling or is in that zone of like, something happened to you and now maybe the crowds have faded, but you, you feel left alone with it that. Picking yourself back up or returning to your life as it was, or moving on in some sort of way is not the same as pretending like it never happened.

And something that became a real goal for me in adulthood was integration that I wanted all my parts. To be integrated within me, but I wanted present adult day me to be the one kind of running the ship. And that's something I come back to over and over and over again, that will make me have to drop victim hood.

Cause I'm like, ultimately. Victimize me. He can't drive the ship. It doesn't take me where I want to go and letting go of that stuff or going, that was deeply painful. I didn't deserve it. Isn't the same as is particularly it never happened. But I think sometimes the, the having to let it go in order to move forward, feeling.

Like self portrayal, but I just think whatever you can do to reframe that for yourself to see it's actually an act of courage for your future self strive for it. Cause I think it can help you time and time again.

[00:52:54] Nina Endrst: I totally agree. And also if it's something. Really need justice forum. That's a go get it.

You know, like nobody is saying, don't seek out what you deserve in terms of justice. Right? W we, we do have to ask ourselves, like, is this a catastrophe? Is this a, is this something I need justice for? Or I want justice for, or is this something that's happening? In my life. That is a problem. And an income or an inconvenience or a misunderstanding.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for talking to us, listening to us talk and. Until next time party people.

[00:53:47] Anna Toonk: That's

[00:53:47] Nina Endrst: all for today's episode.

[00:53:49] Anna Toonk: If you're interested in submitting a topic or want to submit a question for advice episode, please join our membership community@howtobehumanpod.com. Thanks for listening. And remember.