Mark Petach, behavioral economist and psychologist at Quilter joins us this week to tell us how he navigated himself through the toughest periods of his life and how they influenced him to create the meaningful work-life balance he enjoys today from working in finance, losing his job.
Dealing with family illness to then starting his own consultancy and even going back to university at 50.
This week's, BWB Extra gets to know the highs and lows of Mark Pot, Tao's life story a little better.
So let's wind the clock back.
How did you end up doing what you're doing?
You started doing something completely different, right?
And.
Changed at 50.
I did, but actually my whole business career came out of a period of adversity, you know, looking back on it.
And it shaped actually a lot of the questions that I ask now when I'm consulting with, with, with, with businesses.
Cuz what happened was Jan was pregnant, unfortunately, we, we lost our baby, but then she contracted cancer as well.
Oh my God.
So she, yeah.
So she had to go through some very heavy chemotherapy.
Also at the same time, you know, my grandma died.
I mean, it was, it was, it was like she was just pouring it, you know, one thing on, on top of another.
But then I went to work on the Monday.
And I was working for an American company at the time.
You know, Jan had gone through sort of three very heavy levels of chemotherapy and I remember, you know, I remember her sitting in the bath and I just came and looked at her and she just handed me a razor and just went and just shaved my hair.
Yeah.
You know, cuz it was all, you know, falling out.
It was really, it was a really difficult time.
And as she was sort of going through all this, I went, I went to, to work to find that the office was locked.
And, um, I've managed to get into the building and then the M UK MD at the time said, oh, mark, I need to have a work with you.
I said, oh, yeah, what's, what's happened?
He said, um, he said, basically we got a call on Friday from the American parents saying they're shutting the uk.
So basically we don't, you know, we, there's no work.
Now we've, we've, they closed the business and of course the only thing I was thinking about was.
How am I gonna tell Jan I've lost my job?
You know, in the middle of all of this.
What was the job at the time you were I was in finance and leasing.
Finance and yeah, I was in finance and leasing, so I went, well there's, there's no way I can go and tell her I've lost, I've lost my job.
So I thought, right, okay.
I sorted out.
I had to, we had to give the car back all sorts of, cuz they had accompanied cars, which was presumably they had to.
Pay your redundancy or So very little, because I'd only been headhunted.
Oh, okay.
Into that role, a, a matter of a few months before.
All right.
So it was, it, it was a real perfect storm.
So I remember I went back home and I just, I thought, right, I'll walk through the door.
I only, I lived in a little cottage, walked through the door and through my briefcase on the safe and said, right Jen, I, I can't, there's no way I can go to work and with all this going on, so I'm gonna start my own business.
Noise, you know, because it was, and I said, don't wait.
You don't have to worry.
Honestly.
It's all fine.
We got, we got plenty of clients.
It's, it, it, it, you know, we, we'll work it out.
And I remember the, the following day I had to Jan drive back to, had to drive Jan back to the hospital for another whole load of, of, of chemo.
Then I had to drive, um, the car back to the office.
Had to give that back and then get a Lyft back home.
And I was, I was at my desk, uh, at a little desk.
It was actually my dad's from when he, from, from when he was a child.
But I get this little desk and, um, we had no mobile phones.
But you probably wouldn't remember.
You wouldn't.
I would know.
Would you?
Yes.
Okay.
I maybe older than I look, so I was, and I sat down and I.
I sat down at this desk and literally rang the bank and just basically explained what had happened and could I keep, you know, that I was having a bit of, and I thought, be honest with them.
And they said, no, that's fine.
Thanks for letting us know.
And, and then, About 11 o'clock.
In 11 o'clock that morning, the phone rang and it was the finance director of a printing company who was one of my clients in, in, in, he was in Welling Garden City at the time, and he said, oh, Mike said, I'm really, really sorry to ring you at home.
I said, no, that's okay, Chris.
Hey, no problem.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's fine.
It's fine.
I said, what's, what's the amount?
He said, well, look, I, I persuaded your office to give me your home number.
He said, we've got a problem.
And I said, well, what is it?
He said, well, you know, that big printing press, and these were big, big heiberg press.
He said, we've got a, we've got a serious problem.
He said, if we can't renegotiate the lease on this Heidelberg press, we, the, the business is going under.
Oh, wow.
And so I said, oh, right, okay.
He said, could you come and negotiate, you know, help us negotiate cause you understand that, you know, leasing arrangements.
I said, of course Chris.
He said, he said, and he said, um, when would you be able to come and, and see us?
I just went, I remember going, Hang on, I'll just check.
There's nothing in my diary for the rest of my life at this point.
You know?
I said, I'll just check.
And he said, well, we can get them in on Wednesday.
I said, that's fine.
And then he said to me, oh, how much would you, would you, would you charge?
And this was back in, in 90.
92, 93.
And I said, I didn't, I didn't, I just didn't know, you know?
And he said, would a hundred pound be alright?
And he, I said, yeah, yeah.
An afternoon, you know, a couple of hours.
Well, yeah, yeah, as well.
I said, yeah.
I said For you, Chris, I'll, I'll do it for a hundred pounds.
And creed, we, I had no transport.
The only thing we had was this old moped.
That Jan used to ride, so I remember getting my suit on, getting waterproofs on, strapping my briefcase on the back of this old moped, right?
Passing down to Welling Garden City, parking it in the, in in this underpass.
Right.
Getting my waterproofs off, smarting myself up.
I went in and basically renegotiated this lease and I remember the last thing I was being as, as I walked out, Chris said, come back mate.
He said, said What?
What is it?
He said, you've just saved everybody's jobs in this building.
Oh wow.
Right.
And I went, Oh, okay.
And I half my hundred pounds and then call it a thousand pounds.
Yeah.
Well, I shoulda, I'm quite tempted.
Last story of our house.
Yeah.
And, and then, and I, and I, I thought just when I thought I wasn't worth anything, someone was telling me I was worth a hundred pounds.
Half a day.
That's, that's 200 pound for a day.
That's a thousand pound for a week.
Do you know what?
I can make this work.
And when some job offers started coming in, I said, no, I'm going to, I'm going to keep running my own consultants.
You start and start and start my own business.
And so I remember the reason I was able to do that, the reason I walked in and was able to start my own business is because I genuinely wasn't scared, because the only thing that mattered to me was, was Jan gonna get better?
I really didn't care about my job.
It may, it was, it became so insignificant.
Yeah.
And so quite often, you know, ask people when they, when we're consulting them, I said, well, what would you do if you weren't scared?
And they go, well, I'm not scared.
Oh, you are scared of something.
If there were no consequences.
To taking this decision, what would you do?
And it really, again, you know, it opens up the conversation.
So that's sort of how I got to on this journey to sort of running businesses and then that morphed into, you know, various other financial things.
And then, and then going back to university to really hone down on the psychology side of it.
What do you think your long-term girl is?
I, I don't have one.
No long-term girl.
A guy who's asked people about that very question.
And you don't have one?
Well, no.
Cause I don't ask about their long-term goals.
That's the point I ask.
I have a narrative and a vision.
You've not been playing.
Don't, yeah.
Okay.
You've gotta leave to something.
But isn't that a long-term girl?
No.
I mean, it's a long term.
It's a purpose.
It's a name, it's a purpose.
Yeah.
So my, my in a while, so if I get up tomorrow and I am.
Adding value to, to the clients that I deal with.
If I'm, you know, if I'm making a difference in that small way and I'm doing that every day, for me, that is what I enjoy doing.
And maybe it might be a result of maturity or, or getting old.
In other words, cuz probably if you'd asked me that question 10 years ago, I'd probably had a whole list of stuff.
Yeah.
But actually I'm going, do you know what?
It's every day adding value and enjoying the work I'm involved in.
That's, to me, that's got a real sense of purpose.
What's the most misunderstood thing about what you do?
Everybody thinks I'm a clinical psychologist and that I'm gonna analyze them.
So it is, you know, that you sort of get this sense that you, oh, that might, that behavioral chaps here and you sort of think, you know, they're gonna, you're gonna go upstairs and ask them to, she have a couch that you take with you?
Yeah.
Lauren is couch and tell me about your mother.
You know?
No, that is not what we, you should have one of those pocket watches on a train.
Too.
So it's like, you know, hypnotized.
They're both high.
I know.
Yeah.
Both.
High.
Out of all of these decisions where you ended up, what's been your biggest cockup, your biggest failure, do you think?
Yeah, I mean, most of the failures have been intelligent ones, what we call inter so.
So they are the ones that you learn from.
In other words, they were.
You know, we, there, it was a new opportunity we had.
Oh.
I had to act to see if it would work or not.
So it was well hypothesized and I didn't bet the whole sort of farm on it.
Mm-hmm.
But actually when we sold the business or merged the business into a, into a, a consolidator that was.
Betting the farm on it, and it didn't work out too well, basically into a consolidator.
Yeah.
So they were buying, or, or they were merging a lot of financials and, and you, you joined all of that, did you?
Or?
I, I joined when it was, it was, it was many years ago.
And we be, we, we basically never, we ended up ne not getting paid and um, oh wow.
Um, but you know, even then, You know, and it was a lot of money, but I remember when I was told that, um, we weren't gonna get paid, and you and I and I drove home, you know, to my house in, you know, walked, walked into my house when my, my wife's there, my two daughters are there, you know, we've got a lovely home.
I then, um, put some kit on on and went, did a coaching, coaching session with some lads.
Did a kicking session with some guys at, at, at the rugby club.
And I was walking back and I was just thinking, well, if I'd had the money in the bank today or not, what would I have done differently today?
Tonight?
And I was looking around, go, do you know I wouldn't have done anything.
I would still have done this.
Yeah.
And so, and then actually, Some of the people I've met, I, I, I've, you know, one of my main colleagues I'd fortunate enough to work with, you know, some, some really bright people and also some people that are just wonderful to work with, and I met some of them on that part of the journey, so I wouldn't want them to be out of my life.
What's your passion outside of business?
Put them in order.
You seem to have a few, what's number one?
Number one's the cycling.
No, what's the cycling?
Ah, is it the coaching?
Is it the rugby?
The rugby.
My family and friends obviously, but it's travel, sport and music.
Put them in what?
Travel.
Sport.
Music.
Yeah.
I mean it's, it's all the good stuff.
Yeah.
Do you, um, try and achieve all three at once?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, like, yeah, go on a holiday.
Play the guitar that involves sports, coaching, rugby on a holiday.
Every year I try and go somewhere.
I've never been with people, I've never met with my bike.
Every year I try and do that.
Now, give you an example on your own.
You just go off on, yeah.
Last year I went to, uh, central America.
I went to, I wanted to ride between, um, between Mexico and Nicaragua.
Fuck off.
And I was with, I and I, I just happened to meet on this trip.
Uh, an American, um, human rights lawyer who lived in Guatemala, who'd lived in Guatemala for, for free.
Ye.
He then lived in Nashville, and as we were heading for, for the Guatemala border, basically the Narcos took over the road.
Okay.
And we were basically left with a choice of either carrying on and trying to get into Guatemala, just cycling faster and risking kidnap, or going round it, and basically spending four days.
Going up the hard shoulder of a, the motorway.
And he said, uh, you know, he's interesting because going back 10 years old and gone, no, I am gonna get to Nicaragua, but to mix all this up, have you ever done all these things at once?
He said, well, why don't you just come back to mine in Nashville and spent three weeks?
So I went too.
Right, baby.
And then since then I've been lying to the wife telling you I'm going to Nicaragua, but I go to Vegas.
What's the worst advice you've ever been given?
So, we got an issue.
We had an issue in our family.
It was causing my parents a, you know, a bit of concern and I tried everything with the, with this person to try and to try and solve it, um, and try and sort it out.
And someone advised me, well, you've tried everything else.
Try getting angry.
So I thought, oh, I'll give it a go.
It was a worse thing.
I could have done it just, it just had anger.
That never helps it, it just did not, it made the problem a lot worse.
Mm-hmm.
And I really regret, you know, that was just advice.
Yeah.
It was poor advice.
I mean, at the time I was thinking, well, I've tried everything else.
It does sort of make sense.
It might ever, you know, but it did, didn't it didn't.
It didn't.
Business without bullshit is brought to you by Ari Clark.
Straight talking financial and legal advice since 1935.
You can find us@oriclamp.com.
What's the best bit of advice being given?
Don't eat yellow snow.
Yeah.
What is yellow snow?
Oh, come on now.
Was it, I don't know, yellow snow?
Somebody's peed on the snow.
Probably don't know.
Oh, right.
Okay.
Well, it could be any reason, couldn't it?
But it might be slang for something, you know?
I don't know.
Eh, so one of our, we lost a couple of our rugby mates from Leukemia and one of them was, was a really close friend.
We, we lost 'em both in the same season, which was, and I was really struggling.
With dealing with it.
I mean, some months after an, a mate of mine said to me, he said, he said, well, he did, he did a marathon in, in, in aid of leukemia.
He said That really helped him, you know, he said, so as long as you honestly put, you go and do something.
In, in Mickey's memory and it, and, you know, you'll feel, you'll feel a lot better.
And I, I still wasn't really sure what to do and they, I was speaking at an investment conference in, in Scotland, um, and it was a round of a round of speaking events and I tag one of those really terrible.
Ryan Air flights, you know, one of those ones were almost, you know, an oxygen mass will fall from your head.
Oh my God.
Yeah.
I've had one in, then in my last, please insert one pound into the slot to release the oxygen.
You know, Ryan Air are looking for Yeah.
Maximum profit every penny.
But anyway, I, I basically got, uh, we were having dinner that evening and I said, oh, I had such a bad flight up here.
I said, honestly, I've just bought a bike.
Said I'd rather ride up here next time than get a flight.
So he said, oh, that'd be interesting.
Anyway, a couple of bottles of pinot later.
I said, you know what you could do, you know, for your mate.
He said, in memory, your mate, you could ride between all these investment events.
And I went, yeah, cook can, let's have another bottle of beer, you know?
Yeah.
You know, it's amazing what you agree to when you've had, you know, you've had too much to drink.
And so I said, you know, and I said, I only just bought this bike.
And, um, I remember go going to bed and wa wake up the next morning going on.
No one will remember that conversation.
And the first call I got was from the guy who organized all the events.
He said, we've been onto the business that sponsors it.
He said, we're in, we got it onto the agenda this morning.
All right, you can arrive between all the events.
Next some.
I said, well, how far is it?
His mate have been up all night on aa, on an AA roadmap thing.
He, he says, it's about a thousand miles of a thousand miles.
I said, you, I said, I've only just bought a bike.
And he said, and so sort, I basically had to.
Sort of getting involved.
You bet you'd never, like, you, you knew how to ride a bike, but you'd just bought a bike.
No, just, no.
I I, I'd never really, I, I knew how to ride a bike like any kid would.
Yeah.
But, but this was our post rugby sport to keep us, you know, keep us a little bit fed.
So, anyway.
We did the Ride for Life.
Um, it raised about 50 grand.
So it was, it was, it was, it was a good, it was good event.
And then there was thinking that's where this would all end.
Okay.
And then a couple of weeks later, I get a phone call from Mate Mine.
He says, um, this is all busy.
He said, um, busy and I work for, said they're, they're starting, um, they're starting an amateur version of the Tour de France.
And I went, Right.
He said, well, they're looking, they're looking for riders.
I said, right, good.
What?
Lucky then what?
He said, well, you've just done this Ride for Life Round Britain.
He said, we thought you'd like to get involved.
I said, what?
Why?
What they mean?
The whole of the tour of France.
It's just we can do an all 21 stages.
One week before the professionals, and I remember him, I remember him trying to sell it to me cuz he was, he was going, this is the hundredth anniversary of going up the tolet, this mountain.
So he said this year it's got the circle of death in it.
So I said, he's got the circle of death in it.
Why didn't you say Armin?
What's the circle of death?
And it's like these.
Four mountains in a row.
And I said, oh great.
And he said, and it's Eddie Merck's birthday.
And I knew he was a famous scientist.
He said, and so they're gonna start, they're gonna stop this year by riding on the cobbles.
I said, why would ride bike?
And then, but then what he said, he said, look busy.
He said, Really want to get this off the ground is that the charity is a grant giving charity that supports the hardest to reach kids through sports and arts projects.
And he knew he got me because of the coaching we'd done and all the things that we'd been involved in.
So then I started looking, looking at the Tour de France and thinking, right, there's, there's.
There's different ways of approaching this.
You can either, you can either treat it as one 3,600 kilometer ride, or actually 82 hour rides.
And if you, you will complete it.
If you can do all those, all 82 hour, 82 hour rides.
So it's 21 stages, but you are splitting it up, you know, you're still doing the stage in the same day as the pros, but you obviously you're taking it, taking a lot longer to do it.
And so basic 12 of us were on the start line.
And when it came to, I thought I knew about teams, but at the end of that first stage, I was in the strongest team I'd ever been in, or I'd never met these people before.
But straight away we all knew what we wanted to achieve and we all realized we weren't gonna be able to do it on our own.
We had to work together.
Yeah.
Right.
To do it.
And, and we launched the first amateur version of the Tour de France, which I, which now raises about 350,000 pounds a year and is run.
Every single year.
Wow.
So, I mean, so that one piece of advice get on your bike, the effect that, you know, ride something in memory of your, your friend has just led to this incredible series of events that, that, that just keep going, reach out and touch the universe and it might touch your back, you know, what advice, uh, would've you given a younger self?
I think it would've just, it would've just been, it'll be okay.
You know, it'll don't, don't get so worried about what people think.
Don't worry.
It's going to be fine.
I think it would be, it would be something as, as, as simple as that.
You know, we, we worry about the wrong things when we, um, don't we, have you got any sort of recommendations of things we should be reading or watching or listening to?
Oh my goodness.
Um, Music.
Yeah.
What's your music ones?
Anything by Led Zeppelins.
Oh man.
The greatest Back.
Yeah.
Unbelievable.
Yeah.
I mean, I, I think no one played rock like them.
Never.
No, it's, it's just another level.
They're the Beatles of, of rock in a way.
You know, it's like I was at, um, Taylor Hawkins memorial gigs.
They're the Fux fighters, you know, is probably the nearest current.
Was, I think they wouldn't even think it was the same ballpark, but I don't really listen to them.
Yeah.
I they, they're, they're fantastic as, as well.
I, I have to admit, I have no idea what either of you're talking about.
Right.
You've heard of LED Zippel led I've heard of them, but I couldn't, if you told me to name a song, Most famous, I mean, their songs all 10 minutes long.
Stairway to Heaven is their most famous, but Okay.
Anyway, can you give me a favorite lens song?
What's the Kashmir Kashmir?
Mm-hmm.
That's a good one.
Yeah.
In fact, my daughter and I, because I go to gigs with my younger daughter and we have actually got the top 100 guitar riffs of all time, and the best Christmas present I've ever had is where she managed to get little photos and cut out photos of.
Every single album cover and create a poster of the top 100 guitar riffs that we'd created of all time.
Oh, nice.
Nice.
That was really cool.
One film I think everyone should watch is Marvelous, which actually is a bit, is a, is a film.
It's about the Sheffield United Kit Manager.
And it is the most uplifting film.
And not, not everybody, not a lot of people have seen, I love Christopher Nolan films.
I love Monty Python is a Christian Nolan film.
No, that isn't, no, but, but I would imagine that you get that resp, have you watched Ted Lasso?
Yeah, I was supposed to say Sounds a bit Ted Lasso.
He is a sort of, you know, a likable guy or something, you know.
No.
Oh.
I think it's just, it's, it's, it's a remarkable film.
Toby Jones plays, plays.
Oh, Toby Jones.
Yeah.
Toby Jones everywhere.
I know, I know who, once you recognize it, you're like, fuck.
He's this English guy in every America film.
Like every, everybody I've told go and watch this film have texted me after they've seen it.
Oh, wow.
I'm gone.
Oh, that was, I was in floods of tears.
And anybody who wants to get a basis of, um, of behavioral economics should, should, uh, I'm thinking fast and slow by, I was about to Dan Canman.
Is it?
I was about to.
You must love that book.
We see it's, he's like this.
God of behavioral, uh, is, is science, isn't he?
I mean, he's the one with all did all those tests.
I mean, that book is just littered with, oh, then we got people and we showed them a horse and then they jumped out the window or whatever.
You know, I don't remember that experi, but yeah, I'm sure someone's, it feels like something that wouldn't have been allowed to take health and safety reasons.
I mean, I, I know his partner, Amos, to this.
Who, unfortunately he didn't, he didn't share the Nobel Prize because they don't award it posthumously.
But he would, his, his work, you know, with Daniel Canman was, yeah, really groundbreaking.
This is our favorite part of the show.
Okay.
What's one, um, so Mark, this is called the Business versus Bullshit Quickfire Round.
We are gonna say various terms.
And you've got some cards there and needed to tell us whether it is business or bullshit.
And so we're gonna say some stuff.
Uh, deq the music.
Are you ready, mark?
Yeah.
Okay, let's go.
Breakfast meetings.
Good.
Bullshit.
That was n f Nft.
Oh, sorry.
Nft.
You've gotta say it.
It's business cuz they're a reality.
But whether.
I can I be that time?
Use your, you know, you can have that.
Think tanks.
I've never met a tank that really thinks that's bullshit.
Keep outings.
Oh God.
You've gotta put some context on it.
I mean, believe me, some of them are really worth it and some of them you wonder what you, can I please shit that one?
Because it really depends on the, it depends on the team very much so, exactly.
Yeah.
Flex.
All working.
Oh, no, that's business.
Yeah, definitely.
Business plans.
Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Business.
Yeah.
You gotta, you've gotta have one asking favors.
Yeah.
Well, it depends how you ask them, but as a psychologist, I'm gonna say yes.
Business, uh, microdosing.
I dunno what that means.
Okay.
As a psychologist, you should probably get involved Bitcoin.
Oh, total and utter bullshit.
Yes.
Holding the bullshit shit.
Sorry.
Universal income,
I think.
It's going to be inevitable.
Hmm.
And that's probably another podcast.
Yeah.
That's business.
Yeah.
Like the, it's going to be inevitable.
I mean, lockdown was a version of it.
Yeah.
It was a lockdown.
Furlough.
Furlough was a version.
It was a, yeah, right.
And you see in Switzerland, they only just narrowly defeated the idea of a universal income.
And I think what's going to drive universal income is that the understanding if a pandemic can stop people earning.
Then arguably, so can technology and with the rise of the metaverse, I think potentially you are going to see the introduction of a universal income.
It may not be, it's not gonna be short term, but I think eventually when people realize that technology in the same way has removed a large opportunity for labor.
In, in, in, in large sections of society, the chances are the debate for universal income is gonna become very real.
One thing that does keep me awake at night is the potential darker side of AI generally, and the potential, you know, uh, with, with actually people really living in existing, solely in a metaverse, I think is something.
Yeah.
Um, but at the end of the day it's, it's the same thing as, as that, that is going to create, that is always, Repairing itself.
It's always learning from itself.
Yeah.
So it's never the finished product or finished finished article.
I think the thing with the universal income though, is that there are, there are gonna be certain sections of society that is going to affect more than others.
And this is where I think the idea of a universal income will come from going viral, but you can go viral in a good way or a bad way.
How do I answer?
That's a big thing.
I don't, I dunno how to answer that.
MBAs, do you know, because I know I, I've got to say business.
Otherwise you've got, you've got all lots of friends with them.
They are bullshit.
Uh, hot desking.
Oh, do you know that as such, connotations?
Um, I, I think hot desking is just, it's gotta be business.
It's just, it's life.
It's a good use of resources.
It's life.
Yes.
So that was this week's episode of Bwb Extra, and we'll be back with a new episode next Tuesday.
Until then, it's goodbye.