Greetings, rabble rousers.

My name is Jessa McLean and welcome

to Blueprints for Disruption,

a weekly discussion dedicated to

amplifying activism across Turtle

Island.

Together, we will examine tactics,

explore motivations, and celebrate

successes in disrupting the status

quo.

This podcast is a proud part of

new left media.

Welcome to another edition of

Blueprints of Disruption.

Today I have with me activist,

teacher and ally Anna Jessup.

And it is part of a group called

Fund Our Communities and Defund the

Police.

They're a Toronto based group that,

among other things, have a weekly

rally at the Toronto police

headquarters every Thursday evening.

During our interview, Anna makes it

clear that she is just one

person, one contributor, a settler

who's doing what she believes is

needed from all allies.

She sees herself as just.

A small.

Contributor amongst those that

she describes as much braver than

herself. For the organizers and

activists listening out there.

I encourage you to pay particular

attention to the intersectional

approach, fund our communities and

defund the police uses and

the various ways that different

groups can help each other out.

Like the other episodes that we've

done, we're not just going to

explore their tactics, but also

their motivations.

We're going to hear about the relationship

building that needs to be at the

center of all great movement

building, as we all should.

Anna continually learns from those

around her.

We'll hear about how she uses that

knowledge and

relies on her comrades to

create spaces for folks

to really connect, share

and ultimately fight back

against police violence and

colonial oppression.

Let's listen in.

And it's going to introduce herself.

We hate speaking for people here.

So, Anna, please tell us, you know,

who are you and what do you

do?

Well, I'd have to say the most fun

thing I do is

raise my 12 year old child,

Max.

And then I also for fun

and for a paycheck.

I'm an elementary school teacher in

the Toronto District School board

in the north east area

of Scarborough.

Scarborough in a

really wonderful community called

Malvern.

And yeah,

and then I, I also do

work with

a group called Fund Our Communities

Defund the Police named after the

banner. And it's a that that

we carry and it's a grassroots

group. We meet every Thursday

outside of Toronto police

headquarters with a banner that says

Fund our communities, defund the

police. And

and because we're there consistently,

it's it's drawing

drawing some like a steady like, you

know, some regulars.

And that's a community that I

really enjoy being with every

Thursday.

No fail like rain

shine no matter what not you.

And what are you doing down there?

Well, the our demand

is transfer wealth

from police, military and big

business into sustainable

publicly owned infrastructure in the

hands of the people.

And

so it's a we chose that

because every oppressed

people struggle at some point, at

some point must confront the police.

And that means that every struggle,

regardless of where geographically,

regardless of where intersectional,

we at some point

can benefit from that struggle.

Because whether it's here,

whether it's in Guatemala,

you know, or any place in the world,

colonial, colonial

capital pays police

to do its dirtiest work.

So we'll get a little bit more into

the issue of defunding the police

and funding our communities.

But I mean,

when you're down there, are

you engaging with people?

Are you you've got a banner,

obviously, to let people know

exactly what your messaging is,

do leaflet, do you engage people,

do engage the police?

I mean, they must be down there.

It's their.

Headquarters.

Yeah, they engage

us. Actually, they are.

You know what? They are regulars.

It's really sweet.

I mean, they are a regular audience

and this is beneficial

sometimes because people

who have been incarcerated

and who are also victims of

residential schools have a lot to

say of the police.

And since they're stationed there,

they can't really leave their

captive audience.

And so basically what we do, we

have banner like we hate.

We are this rope that

goes like between two trees right

in front of the entrance to the

Toronto police headquarters, which

is also next door to Native Child

and Family services,

not so coincidentally.

And so and so

that's like a Palestinian flag and,

you know, land back, you know,

progressive pride flag, like all the

all the intersectional struggles.

We have a soundsystem and

it's an open mic with

with a speaking order inverse

in inverse order to

your intersectional privilege.

That means racialized women speak

first. And

and it's an open mic, you

know, and we usually do a live

stream. So people who have been on

the front line of

police violence, which is to be

on the front line of

colonial oppression, tell

their story.

And while they tell their story,

we live stream

fliers go out.

We also make sure to promote

work being done by

by racialized

grassroots organizations,

anti-colonial anti-racist

abolitionist groups, so that we

are very focused on putting

our people power behind other groups

that might need like labor done for

them.

So firing a

spoken word and we're right

across the street from a

from a posh

bar where the cops like to hang

out and there's usually a patio

there. And so we've got an audience

there, too. We play music.

Oftentimes we, you know, we'll take

the street and just like dance,

there's often around dance.

And

because it's very much like it's

very much led by the indigenous

folks who come out, We have all

this like, you know, like, you know,

not great music, right?

So, you know, there's music and

dancing and sometimes in the street

it's fun.

Oh, my goodness.

I had no idea, to be honest, to the

extent of the participation level,

you know, because something so

sustained, you know.

Every week. How do you have the

energy to put something

like that together

every single week?

It's not like it's always a lot of

people. And, you know, the very

first time

I'll confess to have

had to having weekly

Wednesday night panic attacks.

Oh my God, it's Toronto police

headquarters. Boom, boom, boom.

What's going on? You know, imagining

all these things.

It's been fine.

I'm not saying that it isn't tricky

sometimes,

but.

But I also wondered about the

numbers of people, like, how are we

going to maintain people every week?

And I but I decide,

you know, and the first time

that we did it, I thought to myself,

I can just convey to people that

like this is about the organizing.

It's not about demonstrating like

you can't demonstrate your power

before you have organized it.

And if we are here

every Thursday,

people will know to find us here.

And so, you know, during

the worst weather here in Toronto,

sometimes it was just two of us.

Sometimes it was my friend Richard

and me, and that was it, you

know, But but not usually.

It's not like, well, you know, we

usually get, you know, at least ten

people. Sometimes it's more or

sometimes a demo that's walking

nearby will join us.

And so there was this beautiful

confluence of, like, you know,

pro-Palestinian

land back demonstration,

just filling the street once.

And that's not it.

Mean, there's other stuff, too.

There's also land back square.

Tell me more.

And there were some

like other like those other groups

that I see.

Because one thing that we do

is just

put resources behind.

Like if you want to build

alliances into it to help

organize the left in Toronto,

it's important to kind of notice who

can use help, who can use a banner,

who can use some people to put out

fliers, who can use people posturing

their stuff, and then

to offer those as services.

Like, it's just like, here, we'll

volunteer this for you need a banner

or you want a parent says, What?

Wet'suwet'en and strong.

Fantastic. Oh, you want to take our

done that square and turn it into

land back square. It sounds awesome.

Okay, we'll make a banner and then

just like, put it together.

And then there's this incredible

group that, you know, with a lot of

people who are also at

Toronto police headquarters every

week, who occupy formerly

Dundas Square, Young and Dundas

every Sunday from 4:00

until whenever the whenever people

get tired.

And and so there's a lot

of crossover there and that turns

into a street party.

It's incredible how like you just

like we just go there and stand

in the intersection and I and I felt

like as as a settler,

I'm not recognized as any kind of

leader in other communities because,

like, for someone else.

Joey Twin will be recognized as,

as the contact person for

Toronto police headquarters, or they

might know beneath or

they might know a school

like there are other people who

they'll they'll contact.

Right?

And of course and land back square

as much more even more so indigenous

led and so someone

and there's something about that

that for me as a as a settler

who does not have as much courage as

the people I organized with straight

up,

I, I get a lot of courage from

someone just saying, okay, I'm like,

okay, what do I do now? Like, just

stand here, hold the banner.

Okay. All right.

And the cars are all coming honking,

you know, like, okay, buddy,

so you're going to be an asshole.

So here is my I'm just recording

your and stripping your

license plate, okay?

You know, and then eventually they

calm down, or sometimes you just

make eye contact and hold up your

fist and try to cheer them up.

And they do.

But eventually, regardless

of the tactic, they get the picture

that the intersection is closed,

they're not going through.

And then people begin.

And then after the border, like

the border to each entry point to

to land back square has been closed.

Then, you know, cars

has begun to detour themselves.

People begin to come in, set up the

sound system,

and then the speakers start and it's

indigenous speakers,

women who have fought to have get

their children back who who know the

inside of

of the prison system

from from being, you know, from

unjust convictions and

and who are 60 scoop

survivors and residential school

survivors like a number of the

people who are like a large number

of these people are from that

generation of residential schools

and will describe in detail

the trauma beginning with the

residential school system onwards

through through

the prison system, and they're being

targeted by police trafficking.

So there's a lot of knowledge about

about the logistics of

human trafficking and

the way it systemically preys on

indigenous women that you will

get right there listening to women

on the microphone telling you about

it. And

and so that's going on while people

watch, you know, block off the

borders. Eventually the police show

up.

At first they were somewhat there

have been times when they've been

hostile and fought.

I was not there during some of a lot

of those times when it was first

established. One car just

I saw it on YouTube.

I wasn't there,

drove right through the banner and

just carried the Wet'suwet'en

strong right up young street

flapping in the wind. So we made

another banner.

But lately

it's been cars have been more

respectful and the police, when they

when they show up, they'll block the

intersection so that there's to keep

everyone safe

and they can do some of that work

for us.

And then eventually young

people show up and fill up the

streets and play music.

And and it's like this dance party

going down from Dundas

to wherever on Young

and.

Yeah, so

it can be a lot of fun, but it's

not. But it can also be tricky to

not have your wits about you.

Right.

So yeah, I imagine

like when I like the live

streaming, I imagine that's

as much as reach out

as it is protection as

well, Right.

That you're documenting

what's happening and like you said,

kind of thwarting the

onslaught of haters by letting

them know that they are going to go

viral should they misbehave.

But, you know, taking

up space in front of Toronto

police headquarters.

And I

mean, that's quite the decision to

do that. And and

that's a very busy intersection.

Young and Dundas could be

very disruptive.

Separate locations might have been

confusing and how I protect print

how I presented it, but

they are within walking distance

within then a good, you know, an

easy walking distance

and Yeah.

Yeah. And you haven't just disrupted

the traffic or the flow, but you've

actually created a space to

hear stories, to disseminate

critical information that folks

are clearly not getting through

other channels.

So, you know, when it was first

described to me, it was a demo, you

know, like I pictured a banner or

some leaflets.

Hashtag defund the police.

But it's clearly so much more

than that, even

from the way that you've structured

it, you know that you've providing

a bit of an alternative way of doing

things and that space

you're creating,

that's like.

I imagine maybe that wasn't the

initial. Like the very first time

you guys went down on a Thursday

and stood outside?

Was it reactionary?

Was it in response to

one of these horrific

displays of police brutality?

You know, can you remember that

first Thursday where you.

Certainly can tell.

Us. Yeah.

You know, I got I was inspired.

I got the idea from

Jewish Women against the Occupation

because years ago they

used to.

And I think there's another group

that still does consisting

of many of the same people occupy

the space outside the Israeli

consulate on Bloor Street in Toronto

every Friday consistently,

no matter what.

And and someone told

me about that and I thought, wow,

that's so cool, right?

Because I because I know where to

find them. I can fit it into my

schedule. I can just be there.

Their steady presence.

And it stuck with me.

And I and I, I thought about

about the power of that to draw

people, to build a community and

actually to just sort of like

occupy, to claim

a space for for people that

there was something about that that

that seemed that was effective

to me and and reliable

and and I and so I didn't know how

to do it. I was thinking about all

but I thought this is a really

important thing to do.

And,

and then during the

pandemic, we started doing

something similar, you know,

with social housing, Green Deal

and and then

decided the group of us decide

that fund our communities to fund

the police was just more pertinent

because it's because

it's a.

It resonates with all the different

movements. Like it's it really

it gets to like the, you know, the

the penetrating

spike of colonialism

when it really when it gets you

personally, it's through the police

or the military.

Right. Very often.

Right. But it's from one of those

budget lines.

And but yeah, it was about

occupying. So we're creating a

consistent space.

A good a good friend, an old friend

of mine, John Moore,

around the same time, had been

holding regular sacred fire

in Dufferin Grove and had

over years like established his

community by being regular there.

And I forget what day was it always

be inviting me out and I didn't go

blah, blah, blah that you know, but

he was doing something so

significant, so important, built a

community with other people there.

And

and that community very much

is like part of what Of who like

that? That community.

A lot of those folks come to our

events to come to the

events at

at Toronto police headquarters.

And so John Moore deserves

a lot of credit in building that

community and having that consistent

space. Right.

You know where to find us on a bad

day.

You just want to see some friends.

You know, you can find these

people right here.

Because that's one thing I

definitely wanted to ask you is, you

know, why this approach, why

this regular

weekly which to like

an organizer to me sounds

exhausting, but then so

reliable, like you said,

about the Jewish Women against the

occupation that you knew where

to find them.

And that is so comforting,

especially in a city

with so many people that are so

frustrated by so many things.

And if they just knew that, you

know, maybe not this Thursday, but

next Thursday, I can be there or the

following Thursday or

the way that you described

another demonstration would

know that if it's on a Thursday and

they pass by, they could

end up at a bit of a

street party.

And that consistency

is so critical,

I think, to building the community.

Right. It allows that accessibility.

So again, if you're not available

this Thursday, next Thursday, join

us.

You like this this week.

We are here again next week.

You know, bring a friend.

It makes it so much easier.

There's no doodle Paul when all

available you know

Yeah that one time deal

and then live streaming it obviously

people can then participate.

Do you find

those days though that it's just

maybe the two of you

in the rain?

Do you ever think of stopping?

Do you ever think.

No.

That's well, I mean, one thing

that's really I mean, there were a

point there was a point where I was

like, I can't do this.

Like someone else has have to.

But then I realize, Hold on, hold

on, hold on.

This is actually like I don't have

two other people want to do it.

Like and so it's just that also that

that like holding it enough

that you realize, okay, there's

so many other people, you know,

like, you know, Richard's

going to be there, John's going

to be there.

The Squires son is going to be

there, Other people are going to be

there.

And and I and I don't have to.

So like, if something happens, you

know, like I you know, I'm a single

mom, so, like, you know, something

comes up.

All right.

I'm not there this week, but there

but once it becomes regular

and it's got routine,

you know, people know the people

know what to do.

They know the two trees.

They know where the rope goes.

You know, they know how the

microphone works.

Ray The cis

white males can wait their turn.

I, i, I like how you work

your mike. I know in some of our

organizing we do it we call it an

equity mike right on

Zoom. But that

reverse order is

everybody knows well most people

know exactly what that means.

So I mean that's just such a

beautiful approach and

I can only imagine how you must

feel then on those days where

it's maximum capacity.

There are songs, there are

speakers waiting at the mic.

You hear stories you've never heard

before, and it makes all those rainy

days, Yeah, worth it.

You know where you weren't sure

anybody would show up or how it

would turn out. So, I mean, that's

that's truly beautiful.

And people and also people

appreciate it because, you know, I

think there's this idea that some

folks have that a demonstration

is supposed to be big. You're

supposed to fill the streets.

Now, how you get to that point,

we're not quite sure, but you must

fill the streets.

And there's really just for this

photo image in people's minds

of that victory moment.

And and what's really cool

is that, you know, if you're afraid

of if you're afraid of not getting

out those numbers, you don't have to

set that expectation.

You can just be like, no, we're just

we're going to be here consistently

and people actually

kind. Very too, you know.

You know, feeling like, oh, that

wasn't enough to like, know, you

know what? You were there every

single day, even when it was like.

And it's and it gets a lot of

respect. People appreciate the work

and then they get to actually see

the work of of work.

And of course, it takes years to to

build. You know, it's the slow work

of organizing and and you're making

it open and you're making it public

and and it's fun.

Who are you appealing to?

You know, when you're down there,

when you hold up the sign that says

deep and you know, who are you

feeling to.

A people who

have been fucked over by the police.

Which is a.

Lot.

Yeah, it is.

But I imagine, you know, we need

allies as well to find.

Beyond building the communities,

which is critical. So we don't want

to be dismissive of of that.

But if we just set that aside,

are we growing the community

using these tactics?

Are we getting allies who maybe

didn't don't have experience like

they hear these women telling

stories of trafficking and they hear

of the sixties scoop or, you know,

acts of police brutality?

Are they stopping and staying?

Yeah.

That, you know, that must be a real

disruption for their night,

especially in some of these

locations. Maybe they're going out.

They want to have a good time.

They stumble across this,

you know.

That is that that's the impact

you're going for?

Well, it's I mean, it's very easy to

just drive by if you want.

It's very easy to walk by if you

want. But if you you know, you

smell the you smell the sweet grass

burning. You see this group of

people. And sometimes it is

a nice big group like, you know,

like it's pretty hard to miss a lot

of time, you know, like, whoa,

you know, there's something

happening here, and it's but it's

also positive.

So, like, it's so important

to keep it fun, like bring some

food, individually wrapped food

so that we can share it and, you

know, got some COVID safety there.

And and then

we're and also, you know, just like,

you know, so there's food, there's

music, keeping

it upbeat and keeping it fun.

Having a sound system where someone

gets to be Joey is usually our

deejay.

She's got

the best tunes.

So, yeah, it it

changes people's day.

But then when we can say, well,

we're here next Thursday, and I'm

like, Oh, right. And then sometimes

they show up, you know, and

there's a lot of there's also a lot

of contact with encampments

that have been evicted, right?

So so when we first we had our very

first gathering on July

1st, last year in front of Toronto

police headquarters, and that was

shortly after the residential

school graves had been found.

Now, we didn't know when we were

first setting up that location

that the graves were going to be

found because we were

planning it before, before the news

broke.

But it natural.

But anything that comes up

can naturally in some way fit

into this anti-colonial struggle.

And and so that

that made a connection.

So in terms of growing growing that

the movement that meant

that there was this really solid

connection with indigenous

communities folks who are indigenous

folks who are organizing here in

Toronto, when

something comes up in the news about

another another,

you know, shooting of a black

person, you know, by police

or, you know, someone know someone

in Toronto, you know, or

there's an immediately there's

a more people who connect to that

who can connect to that spot.

And a lot of folks

during the encampment, evictions

here in Toronto last summer

made a direct connection And

and so it allows naturally

allows for

us to connect to things that are

going on in the city that,

you know, all the left wing

struggles can connect to it.

If you're a left wing activist, you

know, you got

you got a strong interest in

defunding the police.

Well, yeah, Your messaging is

certainly anti-capitalist

as well as anti-colonial, which

essentially are tied to one another.

We know that.

Would you say most of the people

that participate, you know, consider

themselves anti-capitalist or is

that a little bit of work that needs

to be done?

You know, it's interesting you ask

that because, I mean, I

I definitely see

this as a as a as a anti-capitalist

socialist struggle.

Like, you know, ultimately I want us

to you know, I think we need

an international socialist

movement to overturn imperialism.

And especially now that

we're we're in the midst of

what what is emerging as another

imperial war. And I think

so. I mean, certainly I take it from

a.

From a socialist perspective, an

anti-capitalist perspective, when

organizing with folks,

indigenous folks here in Turtle

Island, that language is not really.

Particular like that doesn't really

engage so much.

And so kind of bridging that

like, you know, the language that.

That my friend Joey uses to

talk about these struggles.

And my friend John, you know, like,

I like those.

Like, there's.

Like they're teaching

me about, like, how to organize.

And I am learning a lot.

Like, I'd be, you know, like there's

there's a different method of

grassroots organizing that that

Joey and John apply.

And similarly, I've got this method

that I've been using.

And so there's also it's

a little bit like learning

each other's language, like, you

know, like talking

about the terms that get used.

And so and yes,

there is definitely work there.

You know what we're doing that work

with each other.

I like that with each other, you

know, because and certainly

being indigenous led provides

that alternate perspective,

one that we're trying to amplify

right as a possible solution

to all the issues that we

face as a society.

So yeah, our end goal

I think is shared there, you know, a

socialist revolution

and like this work has

to go on on so many different

levels, right?

You talk about filling the streets.

You know, we do have to fill the

streets eventually.

Yeah, but I,

I definitely wrote that quote down

from you. I feel like I want it on a

T-shirt.

You can't demonstrate power

until you've organized it.

And so this network

building, these connections, I mean,

it's what a beautiful foray

into activism.

Should someone stumble across this

and open their eyes

and join in and join up the next

Thursday?

I think that's just such a.

Kind of organic grass roots

approach.

And I mean, you say sometimes

it's small numbers, sometimes it's

large numbers. But you describe so

many different groups already that

are interconnected and

have very similar tactics.

You know, maybe not the same, but,

you know, this consistency, this

woven ally where,

you know, it's trade and

labor and what do

you need and how can you help us?

And that is just so wonderful.

I mean, can you remember your first.

Experience with activism.

Was it anything like this?

I cannot remember.

Yeah. So.

Well, okay, so the very first time

my my dad was reading

a book by Linda

Mccuaig called Behind Closed Doors,

and it was just when the GST was

being introduced, which was a

regressive tax.

This book was about the big

business is paying nothing for a

huge, huge tax cut.

Old are you on that?

This is what I was 11.

Okay.

So that's how I got

it.

So, you know, I

was you know, I didn't

have a whole lot else going on at

the time, you know.

So I had time on my hands and I

wrote this letter to Michael Wilson

and underlined things

and read, you know, this makes

me mad.

I wrote Marker underneath there.

And then I went around the

neighborhood getting signatures.

And that was just so much fun.

I mailed it to him and got

and didn't get a response.

And then my dad said, Why don't I

can email a tour MP is a liberal,

That guy's in the opposition.

Okay. So I sent it to him and then I

got a response from Michael Wilson.

I was so excited and apparently

the petitions got let Red in the

house and that was the first

day I was really exciting.

And then now, okay, I want to do

something else cause that's a real

buzz. I really like that.

And then, you know, next year

I was in grade six and my my dad was

playing like I was listening to this

radio program by David Suzuki

called Matter Survival is about

climate change and about like, you

know, the future.

If we continue on the path of like,

you know, carbon consumption.

And it was so scary

and I'm like, oh my God, I had to do

something. But like, I can't just

listen to this and not do anything.

It's it's horrible.

So so I started this club

and then we'd meet in the library

every Wednesday and,

and listen to these tapes.

But it got kind of boring.

And then my, my wonderful science

teacher from the previous year

stepped in, and this guy really made

a difference. He

so he can. I beg, beg, please.

Mr. Gugino, will you please?

I'm busy. I'm going to Please,

please, please. And so we decided to

supervise it. So we had a staff

person, and then he helped us up

with an environmentalist.

Now is a park named after him in

Aurora and is

trying to remember his name now.

They'll probably come to me.

But it's it's slipped my mind at

this moment. And he was organizing

to save a forest that I didn't even

know was due to be sold

to a land developer right behind my

house, right near us.

And it was it's a beautiful little

forest. And there was a a sign

up that I hadn't, but that went up

around the same time that I wouldn't

have noticed say that it

was due to they were going to blow

the whole thing down.

And, and there were some councilors

organizing to fight that.

And, and so Mr. Gudino helped

organize his students, who I realize

now, in retrospect, he was

encouraging to come to that our our

weekly meetings in the library

and they organized they got like 500

signatures and

and then class

where in Burke that's the name of

the activist.

And

so the so class

where member came and you know,

visited my house and like, you know,

talked to my dad and helped me

figure out, okay, it looks like

they're taking deputations.

First time I ever heard of

deputation, you can go to City hall

or town council.

Aurora, very conservative

town.

Very still is like.

I mean, I love my whatever, you

know, it's like, oh my God.

But so we could depute

and

and so we got on the list

and we presented our petition.

And then later the

mayor of

the town, I mean, there were a lot

of councilors working hard in this

came and visit our environmental

club for a lunch to

give his side of the story.

And then the parents showed up and I

was a little bit concerned.

I didn't really want him to come,

but but he did.

And we got to to, you

know, asking questions.

And I, I recall being

kind of angry toward him, like, not

really. But anyway, but he came into

this and but like, that

was something, right?

And so it's like, okay.

And then quite frankly, just they

didn't they didn't you know what?

I didn't even realize I lost track

of of that forest.

I didn't know because it didn't get

taken down.

This is not what's going to be my

passion. Did you see the forest in.

Did state I mean like

the city councilors and class where

member Yeah and also like

I imagine I mean I realize

now the mayor came to visit our

school.

He must have thought that that had

some impact.

I don't know. Like, you know, he

took a little time out to give his

side of the story.

But I thought that

when it didn't get take, I never

met. I did not think that we had

succeeded. I never imagined that we

wouldn't. I just assumed that it

must have been another region

because, you know, they play these

little games.

Oh, yeah. That like which area will

get you lost the details.

And I got confused by the details

and thought that they just meant

some other region of that

of that wooded area that

that was more sparse.

And I thought that for decades.

And then eating lunch with,

you know, came to visit my dad for

dinner once he goes, well, you know,

you saved that spot.

Like what? What was Well, you know,

they had they had a sign.

He reminded me of the sign which had

been posted right next to the most

densely wooded area.

So they took it down.

I was like, You're right, They did.

That is exactly what my God,

they probably they would think

they would have taken it, you know?

And I mean, of course, there are a

whole lot of you know, is a whole

lot of work that went into that.

And we just got to, you know, be

part of it.

But that was that was an exciting

thing. And then I basically didn't

do any activism again.

Jezza That was like the peak

of my political life

until university when I

got into York, you know, and I went

to York University and ran

into an amazing group of activists.

Joel Harden was what was one of

those and just like really amazing

like that. That was when I

discovered socialism

and like real grassroots activism

and direct act.

It was a wonderful mentoring

experience and just met such

wonderful people.

And and I credit

them with a lot of my knowledge

today. So good folks,

they're good name, I hope.

But there are a lot there are still

a lot of them are still in the left

today.

Very soon, like I went to York as

well for political science.

And I wouldn't say

like that's where I started

my activism, but that

was very full of Marxist,

that school, right?

Thankfully, yes.

I had a lot of fun with

really great professors like David

McNally

comes to mind.

I was lucky to have him,

especially if we're going to talk

about anti-racism.

But that was such

a nice story. But the forest and

like you say it kind of

dismissively, but you know,

deputizing and learning those

processes and the levers of

power and who you had to kind of go

to. I mean, you were getting that

instruction quite early, which,

you know, regardless whether you

used it for a few years, is is not

the point.

And it's so funny because you're

taking a completely different

approach now, right?

Like we've all

signed the petitions, we've all

written to politicians.

We know where most of the time that

go, even though you were successful,

you saved the dang forest.

But you know, police,

we won't defund the police through

petitions. We know that, right?

Do you have any political allies in

your work? You know, you ever had

any elected politicians

down there

helping boost your visibility or is

this a bit of a hard sell for

those folks?

I I'm not I'm not saying that they

wouldn't, but

I just.

Joseph Oh, my God.

You know, like, I mean, so I've got

yeah, you know, I think you really

identified the path there, you know,

and that was my first time being on

a council and listening to them say,

Well, you know what, We, we have a

nice project for you.

What would you like to be on our

environmental committee? Okay, Now,

so we were thinking you could go out

with your friends and pick up

garbage and, you know, or,

or do something with Green bought,

you know, with blue boxes, which you

just come out, you know, and

thinking, no, no, we want

to stop the corporations from

polluting.

Right? But that's not what you guys

want to do. You want.

To just keep me busy.

To pick a book, right?

Like when I had my son pick me up

and basically marathon.

Thing, you know, I'm not like, sure.

But, you know, like, I just I don't

like where this is going.

And, and of course

that's exactly what happens for

as long as you're involved in

bureaucratic organizing.

And I'm not saying that it doesn't

have its merits, but, you

know, I was very active in my unions

on the executive of my of my union

for a while and and did a lot of

work with folks try, you know,

organizing, trying to build a

committee, a community organizing

like a committee that would

I mean what I really what we really

wanted to see what I wanted to see

was a citywide

network of parent

teacher community teacher councils

sponsored by the union.

Right. And and so we really worked

hard on this. And the thing is that

it's very community organizing

is really antithetical

to a lot of

the.

Established bureaucracies

that we use in politics.

A lot of that machinery just doesn't

operate that way.

And so

there's a point where,

like, I just decided, well, it seems

that I just, you know, the higher

you go up the ladder, the less

maneuverability has to have more

power to do stuff.

Or do I just have your disability so

restrictive?

Yeah. Like this isn't fun.

Yeah. You know, and

I'm not saying it doesn't have a

place like mobile light.

You can, you can revive the union.

You can you can, you know, do

incredible work.

But I think it's.

But I, I can't say that

I've really focused on trying to get

the attention of politicians.

I

when my spouse was still alive, I

was married to.

I really love my dude.

He was he was awesome.

He was my comrade and I and

he was with me during a lot of union

organizing. And he used to say, Hey,

just don't get caught up with these

big names. Ignore them.

That's not who you're trying to

organize.

Like they're already political.

Don't worry about it.

Forget them, right?

Organize the people who who don't

have an organization yet to

be with those. But that's who you

need to throw your, you know, your

power. That's who you want to

support.

And it just makes so much sense.

That is good advice.

Yeah.

You know, and then the politicians

want to show up, you know, maybe

we'll let them.

Yeah. I mean,

the amount of wheel spinning

that I see people do

to just to get the ear of,

you know, a certain critic.

To get a certain policy

to a certain table.

It takes so much effort

and like you essentially have

to sell your soul half the time

because you have to drift to center

to make anything palatable enough

for some of those people.

But I had a I

was talking to a guest earlier about

like clout chasing, too.

So, you know,

if you

somehow if you're if there are

politicians drawn to your

actions, sometimes

you start to wonder,

who am I doing the right thing?

Is this become.

That's right.

Too too soft,

too easy for them

to glom onto, you know, without any

substance. So not

to mention that it pushes people

away to the partizanship and

whatnot. But I thought, like,

it's really hard to even hear a lot

of politicians talk about

defunding the police.

I know Matthew Green has been pretty

vocal and Joel, I think has

said a little bit.

But right

now the party on the left, the NDP,

you know, currently supports more

RCMP funding and

it's really not on the political

agenda.

How do we get it there, though?

We need those people to actually fix

the budgets, right?

So, you know, here in Toronto, I

guess we're really talking, God help

you, John Tory,

please don't let him win again,

because that man will never defund

the police. Not not a nickel.

Right.

So how do you get them?

Like we build these communities.

But your. Your banner has a

goal, right?

Like, how do we get

there?

How do we.

Well, you know, there has been some

criticism. Just the only the

criticism that I agree with most in

terms of that banners, I should say,

abolish the police.

Yeah, right. And yeah.

We'll get there.

Like Once Upon a Time.

And that was that was one of the

first criticisms that, that, that,

that struck me.

And I, I mean the thing is that

like I'm also aware that

as long as.

We say as long as if

we think about how are we going to

get them.

And then there's another way of

saying it's like, well, it's not

about them.

We're going to build I mean,

revolution and I'm in it and

I'm and that is a good way to think

because even if

was even if you don't if you think

in those terms, you

are bound to apply

more pressure.

And in fact, the language in

what we say, we don't say that.

We are asking them then to define

it. We are it's

to to compel a transfer

of wealth.

From police, military, big business

into sustainable infrastructure

owned by the people or

managed by. I forget exactly, but

like in the hands of owned

and controlled by the people.

And so how we compel that.

Everything is on the table.

That just doesn't fit on a banner.

That's right. Like we

you may have that's a

mouthful, but let's break that

down a little bit.

So a transfer of wealth

from essentially the most

powerful forces in our

society.

Will meet a lot of resistance.

So. So you're saying your goal then,

is to build communities until they

are large enough to withstand

that resistance?

Damn the politicians.

That might be in our way at the

time.

Right?

Yeah. I mean, even

when I ask you who you're killing to

and you definitely made it clear,

like I'm not appealing to John Tory,

we have given up hope on that man or

his actions, But, you know, in the

end, they will only act once

there is a massive movement

underneath them.

Or, of course, they are swept away

by it, which would be even better.

So it's not it's not

a criticism. In fact, it's it's a

diversification of tactics.

Right. Like, someone can still be

going in to John Tory, his office

and trying to ask him to defund the

police if that's what floats

their boat.

But clearly, we

need enough people

in the movement connected

to one another to to make

it clear that that that's a demand,

not an ask.

Do you find that

you are building?

How do you continue to have

momentum?

Yeah, for sure.

It's

yeah, it's so

I think a lot of that comes out at

land back square, actually, you

know, and it's,

you know, both of them like.

You know, got got more of a solid

crew that comes out and then we

connect with other groups and then,

you know, being able it also meant

that we were able to.

Carry off. You know, like

we did peace demonstration a little

while ago that was sort of

affiliated not completely under

the banner of our same organization,

but but once you've established

that you are regular,

consistent

people know where to find you.

You end up so much more able to

connect to the other the other

organizing that's going on.

And I think right now, given

how I can sort of get back to that

topic, you know, it's kind of like a

reformer revolution kind of

question, you know,

are we asking them or are

we going to do it ourselves?

And and right now

we're watching

the neoliberal establishment

lose credibility on a scale that.

I don't think we've seen

certainly like like not like not

in my gender, not in our generation.

And we've actually and

one symptom, one really blatant

symptom of this is,

you know, rampant conspiracy

theories, far right movements

that can, you know,

can boldly march around, you know,

with near impunity.

Right. Like these these things

happen at revolutionary

moments, you know, based

on what you know, based on whatever,

you know, studying I've done, you

know, like it's it's because that

the system is actually so

has lost so much credibility

and the economic system

is just not functioning to keep most

people fed and content

and then you know are some some

middle class folks with a little

bit, you know, with privilege and

anger and whatever, you know, we'll

take this far right route.

But but there's there's a power

vacuum, right?

And then there's a competition.

And I think, you know, we saw this

in the thirties, you know, like

who's going to fill that power

vacuum?

And there was a,

you know, similar stuff was going

on in Europe around the time of the

First World War. Right.

And and

and that and that's very much like

that. Competition between the right

and the left is very much where,

you know, Rosa Luxemburg's movement

and, you know, where,

you know, the Russian Revolution

came from and very much the peace

movement that, you

know, that that actually was very

successful. We don't talk about

World War One being an armistice

very often, that in fact, you

know, the Russian Revolution, people

rising up in a revolution saying,

no, no, we don't want

this war anymore, was very much a

part of that, stopping a UN

imperialist war that

the peace movement and a

movement for international socialism

has very much like that

revolutionary

fire to it, that that that it has

that source that

when the wars become intolerable,

when the situation that becomes

intolerable

and.

You know, and it's a moment of

crisis that's very often where

people decide that they're

absolutely has to be a drastic

change.

And and so I see that when we

talk about, you know, whether we're

lobbying someone else or just

actually saying, well, what if what

if we did it? Like, if you organize

always, like, you know,

someone said this to me once and I

never forgot it, that like,

you know, a revolution doesn't just

happen because you organize and

overthrow the establishment.

It also happens when the

establishment is weak because part

of what's going on is that there's

kind of a collapse of the

establishment. It stops working so

well, you know, like, you know, Czar

Nicholas doesn't doesn't have

his shit together and it's all

chaos. And so whoever is the most

organized basically

becomes the power.

And so always,

always to organize so that you

are you are the most organized group

around so that when stuff stops

working, you're the one who

fills in the power vacuum.

That can be an event that can be a

sudden change or it can be gradual.

Whoever is the most organized.

See, that's.

The tom politically.

That terrifies me at the moment.

Because although, you know.

Love what you're doing, but you have

to admit there is a huge vacuum

on the left in terms of white

leadership or

consolidation.

And the right

demonstrated by the, you know, most

recently the occupations of Ottawa,

like we've not

even Occupy Toronto, didn't occupy

that kind of space.

Well, that's good. It's okay, you

know.

But it's like it's like

misogynistic, you know, like,

actually, women are usually quite

much more brave.

But do you know what I mean?

Like that.

I hate to give it any kind of

credit, but like that is a huge

success on an organizing scale,

especially during a pandemic when

people are poor, struggling,

mostly wanting to stay inside,

and they were able to not

just occupy Ottawa,

but have all of these solidarity

actions that are still continuing

today.

So.

So yeah, that's why you see me

making those faces is that's me

cringing when you say, you know,

in this absence of power, who

will take over?

And I think if we were to flip that

coin right now today, that would not

be the left.

That would not be us.

So how do we

take our Thursday

action along with all the other work

that your comrades are doing across

Turtle Island and beyond,

and get to that point.

You know.

You know, what are we

what are we missing?

What work needs to be done?

So, you know, I told you

earlier I'd ask you if there were a

thousand annas.

You know, what would they be doing

right now?

Would you be in a thousand different

police headquarters or.

Be disrupting more?

Oh, you know what, Joseph?

I was thinking about this with some

of my my friends,

because sometimes you gotta just

take a step back and not us and

not ask yourself what you're willing

to do, but what needs to be done.

And, and one thing that I've

realized and that I've learned from

the people who I organized with is

that you really

need to always be disrupting.

And and, and I didn't that's

not necessarily what I wanted to

hear because sometimes

I don't want to I, I want to get

arrested.

Yeah. It's not the easy out,

you know?

But here I am with other friends who

clearly don't who are just going to

be there regardless.

I'm like, okay, well, I got a ton

of privilege, you know,

like, you know, hear my friends who

don't have that much trouble,

they're not scared.

Okay. All right.

So then I realize actually

disrupting like when you can't when

you don't know the numbers, but you

just constantly disrupt

you, you get first of all,

you get more attention, you draw

more people, you

build your own courage and you make

things difficult for the opposition.

And you manage to

you you pack a harder punch.

And it's a way of of of

accomplishing more.

And so I you know, I was thinking

too much. I was you know, we were

talking I said, really what we need

to do, we need to start occupying

some of these vacant apartments.

And we got a massive homeless crisis

here in Toronto.

You know, it's appalling.

You know, people can't afford to

live in their own city.

And, you know, tons of people

are on the street, you know, And,

you know, I know lots of people

who've been on and off homeless and

and so thinking about

like I think the answer is that you

keep disrupting.

I think they're and, you

know. BLOCK You know, whatever makes

whatever makes the establish

whatever throws a wrench into

things. And I I'm not the expert

on that. Like, in truth, this is

where I'm learning from my comrades.

This is where I'm learning from my

friends, because I wouldn't

have blocked the young

street at Dundas, a

young and Dundas.

I didn't have that much guts.

My friends had that much guts

who stood with them.

And I'm very glad for that.

So I'm following their lead

right now.

But I do believe that there has to

always, always have to be.

Getting, you know, when you don't

have the numbers and you need to

increase the visibility and

there's like a balance because you

don't alienate yourself from most

people. It has to your

actions have to be clearly

justified.

And when the law

is as.

Meaning like I really like it when

the law is as arbitrary as I see it

being right now. Like a good friend

of mine was just a number of people

who I know. One particular good

friend, Richard, was just

like taken right off the street,

followed by plainclothes officers

after a press conference about

an encampment clearing

and just like thrown into

a van and, you know, to police van

and for some stupid

thing, they that he threw

a water bottle way,

way, way back during the Lamport

Stadium.

You know, they don't even have like

there's no evidence of it.

And so

when it's that arbitrary, I

just I think that there's a lot to

be said for. Just say, okay, well

they'll they'll make the law whatever

they want.

So let's just decide what is

justified, what makes sense, what

will be recognized as reasonable

to most people, to most

well, thinking people,

well-intentioned people,

and just follow that

and disrupt and continue to organize

and continue to disrupt.

And yeah,

and that that means traffic.

It means occupations.

Yeah, I think maybe that's.

Where it means courage.

That you kind of.

Talk about limitations.

You don't call them that, but

needing to make sure that, you know,

you don't push the boundaries so far

as you alienate

the same people that you are trying

to draw to the movement.

And I think that's perhaps where

the right went wrong.

You know.

Putting up a hot tub, you know,

and defacing

people for having rainbow flags, you

know, the the the dog shit

thrown at people and,

you know, they just.

They took disruption to a whole new

level and it then

became essentially meaningless.

It just became this act of rage.

The messaging got lost.

And thankfully,

you know, some people.

Distance themselves from

them. But at the same time,

you know, you want to keep pushing

those boundaries, too, right?

So how do you find that

balance between,

you know, making sure you're

palatable but also disruptive enough

that it matters?

Right. So because

that in political organizing, that

that's what I find so frustrating,

too, is often policies

or actions have to be passed

through so many people.

And, you know, will this

this group of voters won't like

that. So why bother, even though,

you know, it's the right thing to do

and I hate that

like that is just so limiting.

So that's why

people love, you

know, because you don't you know,

and people do like,

you know, people are smarter

in their heart than they are in

their head, you know, like I

so, yeah, it's a feels like the

safest thing to say.

But inside I like I like what she's

doing, you know, And

on a deep level I guess keep

going keep going, you know and,

and it inspires people

and you know, like and that's

what leading is about.

It's not the same thing as chasing

votes or being a political

weathervane.

And you're not that you know.

And and it's and

that's what's memorable and that's

what people are going to remember.

You know, like these people who just

care about getting reelected, those

going to friggin remember them.

And 15, 20, no one cares.

No. And they're so ineffective to

remember.

You know?

Yeah. No change.

No. And, you know, sometimes I ask

interviews in interviews, you know,

what's one policy that

would make you stop doing what

you're doing?

You know, like if there's specific

funding, sometimes public education,

whatnot.

But, you know, when you're coming

from an anti capitalist smash

the system, it's, you know,

the work is never done,

right. So.

Yeah. Settling for middle of the

road, you know, actions or policies

is kind of.

I think we're just so beyond that.

Right. It's like that's.

I mean, there's. There's a time and

a place for everything.

There's the easy in, right?

You want to draw people into the

easy thing. That's not so.

You know, people who don't want to

get arrested, right?

Let them kind of stand in the

background, get more brave.

Understand the need for disruption

and its effectiveness.

So I really do appreciate

the time you spent here today

driving that point home that the

need for disruption, because

that's, you know, part of what we're

doing here with this podcast is.

You know, it's a bit of

disillusionment with

the electoral system and the

amount of energy that really good

people are spending inside

those toxic spaces.

So.

Hopefully we. They are toxic.

They are.

Oh, firsthand knowledge.

Know it. I've seen so many friends

damaged through it, but I have

never really seen that kind of

toxicity in any kind of organizing

circles I've been in.

There's always problem characters.

You always have the same issues of

perhaps being infiltrated by

centrists or,

you know, just personal issues that

might erupt. But it's never to that

level of,

you know, repression that

you can feel inside.

So. Like hearing you describe.

Spoken word.

And, you know, even just picturing

two folks holding the banner in the

rain is like, so heartwarming

to me because I've been there.

You know, when you have no idea

who's going to show up, you just

know you and a friend are hopefully.

And so,

I mean, I.

Think we did that with the KKK

convoy Go Home banner like

that. We had like a few.

But, you know, people appreciated it

as just this little bit of

disruption. It was friggin

something, you know.

I at a time when we needed that

to, you know, we needed to see some

of our comrades instead of watching

the convoy, We needed to see

a little fight back there.

So I you know, I wish I was in the

city and like, I'm up here on set

and I'm I'm a city girl.

I grew up in. SCARBOROUGH So when

you say mouthy, oh,

I'm in.

I love my town.

If anyone's listening,

I'm in Suttons.

So just I thought

you were out East now,

you new area.

Yeah, I thought you were down east.

Now.

Now, I'm an Ontario girl.

I'm just an hour out of the city,

so, like, there's.

You know, up in Aurora, Thorncliffe

Park, and then. And then Aurora.

Yes, I'm in Georgia.

But yeah, I know where that is.

Sutton Yeah.

So I like I

wish I was in the city because the

thought of that being so accessible,

you know, even your banner drop, I

was like I say to my my partner

all the time, like, we have to move

back into the city. Can't afford it,

right? I'm just like the amount

of networking and

connections that what you

said, you know, if you just know

that there's a bad day and there's

going to be some fighting comrades

there on a Thursday and you can show

up and just be a part

of it if nothing else.

You know, there was a time where we

all went out and hit the pots and

pans at some not during COVID,

I mean, during the Maple Spring.

Right.

Right.

Where the Quebec students were doing

it. And yeah, we set it up

every in a park.

I can't remember which park.

I think we were in Moss Park every

week. And some of the neighbors

came out and yeah, I have first

time. It's two people than four

people, then more people.

And then it started to dwindle,

right? Because we needed to add

something to it. We didn't.

And so it died.