Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints

of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining

power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,

we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle

capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know

we need. Welcome to the studio. Can you introduce yourself, please? Yes, my name is Pierre-Philippe

Cheveny. I'm a writer director from Montreal, Quebec, and I directed a film called Richelieu.

And a few short films, all of my films are based on social issues, including migrant rights.

Your most recent film is the first full length film, is that correct? First feature film,

correct. Richelieu. Congratulations. Thank you. that must have been an intense period of work,

like to go from shorts to what you described as like 10 years of work into this film. Yeah,

I think that's kind of like the way movies are made in Canada and in Quebec. It just takes

a very, very long time because we get, you know, the funding comes from the government and you

have to kind of get a place in line and wait for your turn. And sometimes it can be years

and years and years and it just takes a long time. you know, to write a script in the first

place. So you add all of those periods of development and waiting for the money and it takes about

10 years. That must be difficult to have such a long creative process for something that's

so political because our political times can shift. I mean, not major shifts, but you find

yourself having to update it as you go. I used to update everything and then at some point

I just gave up on it. And to be honest, for Richelieu, which is about the temporary foreign

workers program in Canada, not a lot has changed. But at some point I kept telling myself, if

at some point down the road the program is cut short or reformed, maybe some of this is not

going to be relevant anymore. And my thinking was just, well... let's make it like a snapshot

of what it was at this moment in time. Because if you keep rewriting all the time and then

your story doesn't work anymore, you just never you never get anywhere. So that was kind of

my thinking. And in the end, it's perfectly timely. And in hindsight, there probably wasn't

many changes to make. Increasingly relevant, especially post covid, like these stories happen

all the time. Well, I wouldn't say we're post-COVID, but post-lockdown and the different rules that

we had around migrant workers when we were pretending to act on COVID. But let's get into the film

a little bit, because you mentioned that it touches on temporary foreign workers. Do you

want to give the audience a bit of a synopsis to the film? Yeah. So it takes place in Quebec

in the Richelieu Valley, which is about 40 kilometers south of Montreal. It's a very agriculture-centered

region, lots of temporary foreign workers there. And we follow Ariane, who's a French to Spanish

translator. She's hired in a food processing plant, basically. And she acts as the translator

between the factory bosses and the temporary foreign workers from Guatemala. And she will

realize that... they're being exploited in some way and she starts taking the defense against

the bosses, sometimes excessive orders. For folks, this is a really predominant issue in

Quebec. We've talked about it mostly from an Ontario perspective here on the show where

we interviewed justice for migrant workers. We've done a few episodes around it and some

of the changes that have been made. But in Quebec, as I'm doing kind of some research before coming

on here, the numbers there have shot up in particular over the last like three or four years. You

know, the Quebec government made a deal with the feds there to allow even more. And in the

industry that you're talking about, that's one of the top employers of temporary foreign workers

or top exploiters of because of the amount of complaints that come from that sector as well

have gone up tenfold. So this is a huge issue in Quebec and yeah, has been for some time.

Yeah, you might know the numbers better than me, but I think last year was about 65,000

foreign workers in Quebec only. And just before the pandemic, I think it was around 25, 30.

So it has doubled in like the three years. And yes, from what I've been told since the film

has come out, people who watch the film and you know, a lot of Either activists or temporary

foreign workers themselves have seen the film. And what they say is basically this still happens,

you know, every day, basically. And you must have known that because, like, as part of your

research, did you work with migrant workers? Did you? So, yeah, the whole story about it's

kind of a long story. I started working on this back in 2013. I actually had done a short called

Tala. which was also on the temporary foreign workers program, but through the eyes of a

Filipino housemaid, because the Philippines also has, you know, a diplomatic relationship

with Canada and a lot of foreign workers from the Philippines come every year. And when I

did that short, as part of the research process, I had found a lot of stuff about the agricultural

sector as well. And back in 2013, it really wasn't talked about that much in the media.

The only people who said there were problems of exploitation were activists and unions,

basically. And I had read documentations from activists that said this is basically a form

of modern slavery. And I thought that sounded really over the top. intention was to go out

and make a documentary and kind of verify whether those allegations were true or not. Because

I actually come from the Richelieu Valley, which is very agricultural based, and there are workers.

So my thoughts were like, these guys that I used to see when I was a kid, are they really

exploited? Is it really a form of modern-day slavery? And nobody was talking about it. There

were no documentaries or very few back then. No film, no feature film had been made on that

issue. And so I went out, went back home and started talking to people. And then I realized

why there were no films because the people who are suffering from forms of exploitation, they

don't wanna speak out. They're too afraid of losing their jobs. And so at that point, making

a documentary wasn't... really a possibility because nobody would want to speak to me. So

that's when the film became narrative feature, you know, because through fiction I could tell

the truth, but I could also protect the anonymity of people who were talking to me. And it also

allowed me like to show exploitation as it happened. And not if it was a documentary would have

been based like on hearing people, you know, tell their stories through fiction. I could

actually show it and have the audience experience it like. make them feel like they're living

it with the characters. And so what we did is we were referred to about 10 workers who claimed

to have been victims of exploitation. And we actually went to Guatemala because when they

were in Quebec, first of all, they were working all the time. They didn't have time to sit

down and have a chat with me. And second of all, they didn't want to be... seen by the

employers talking to someone who could be a journalist or whatever. So going to Guatemala

was kind of a safe space for them. And we basically couch surfed around the country, going to several

workers' houses. I was actually accompanied by Ariane Castellanos, who's the lead actress

in the film. She was involved also in the whole research process. She kind of acted as my translator

because like my Spanish is very, very bad. That's your role in the movie, right? She plays a

translator between the film. So, yeah, we basically they were all very eager to speak, but they

were afraid to be like that their identity would be revealed. So we made sure to write a script

based on their testimony, but, you know, to change enough elements so that it couldn't

be identified. And basically the script is a collage of all the stories we were told. Nothing

is pure fiction. Everything that happens, happened to someone at some point in time. Maybe not

in that order, maybe not to like, you know, some things happen to another character, but

everything is true. Just to give a little bit of context to the audience, too, about why

there might be fear, I mean, we've talked about it before, but temporary foreign workers are

tied to a specific employer, they are not able to change. to a different employer, if they

lose their job, they have to go back to their home country. Exactly. I was told actually

there are workarounds, like in the past few years, some stuff has changed, and now it's

possible, but it is very, very complicated to change employers, but technically, their visa

is specifically linked to the employer. At the moment, they lose their jobs, their visa has

expired, and they have to leave the country. And in some of these cases, you know, you're

a peasant from Guatemala. You live in a country that has problems of corruption. Recruitment

is done by private agencies. How often times you have to like pay money to get on the program.

So before you even get to Canada, you're already indebted and you have to pay that money back

before going home. So if you lose your job and you go home. you have just debt. Sometimes

it takes a few years for people to pay back their debt. And so it becomes profitable over

years. So losing their job is just not an option. And so my film tells the story of bad employers.

There are some situations, of course, it's not like that everywhere. You know, there are players

who take care of their employees and they don't use blackmail to get around, but some do. And

that's what my films show. And in those situations, if, you know, if a boss says this week, you

have to work overtime every night, you cannot say no, otherwise you're going home. Well,

they will work overtime every single night of that week. And that happens a lot. And also

they don't know their rights. You know, that's one of the things. They are often uneducated

peasants from Guatemala. They don't even know their rights in their country. Now you take

them out to Canada, they have no idea. They don't speak either language. They don't speak

English. They don't speak French. And they don't know what their rights are in that country.

So of course, they're going to be very easily manipulated. And that's what happens. And the

sad thing is they don't have a lot of rights here. That's... Although that's an important

part of organizing around migrant rights, however, we find that they don't fall under the Labor

Act. They are mostly beholden to having either a good employer or a bad employer. It's really

luck. And one of the major threats that's always hanging over folks is that they're easily replaceable

because, as you can imagine in the countries that they're recruiting these folks, there

is an endless supply of people who are underemployed. or not employed. And so, yes, this becomes

systemic. One of the issues tackled in the film is also the lack of access to healthcare or

what happens when migrant workers get sick while they're here. We've told people before, but

in case you haven't caught the episodes, they pay taxes. These people are part of work permits.

Not everyone's working under the table. that does not guarantee them, that does not provide

them with access to our public healthcare system. So actually what happens in that situation,

technically they are eligible to like, what we have in Quebec is called RAMQ, Le Régime

d'Assurance Maladie du Québec. Technically they are eligible to it, but it's the employer's

responsibility to register the workers. And oftentimes like... First of all, the employers

don't even know they have to do that, or they won't do it because it's too much work, it's

paperwork and stuff like that. And in the case that I researched for the film, that's exactly

what happens. Like the employer just hadn't registered the workers, and so the worker ends

up with no coverage at all, and he has to pay for it, you know. out of his pocket. And sometimes

if you get sick or if you go to hospitals for a long time it can end up being like thousands

and thousands of dollars, dozens of thousands of dollars, which is what happens in the film.

And these people, they're already in debt before they even came here and now they have 40 or

50 thousand dollar debt to add on top. They're never going to be able to pay that back. That

makes no sense. I want to ask you about the role of the protagonist in your film in how

it relates to mounting a resistance. We talk a lot about that and agency as well. So at

first glance, you know, I get concerned because somebody comes in and kind of begins that seemingly

begins that resistance for them. But then I realize she herself faces economic exploitation,

like layers of it. And is it herself being a worker kind of leveraged against other workers?

But if you want to maybe talk about that a little bit and why it was necessary to have a character

come in and spark that fight back as opposed to the workers who were experiencing that day

in and day out. So the starting point was my research once again, because like I met an

actual translator who did stuff like that, who like... sacrifice their own job to protect

the workers. And that was kind of the starting point for the story because I had researched

the subject, but I didn't know what the story was gonna be. And when I met that person, I

knew like, this is a strong story in itself. And the truth is, once again, and it's not

like to come back with stereotypes or anything, but a lot of these workers are truly uneducated.

They wouldn't know. you know, where to go, who to ask help with. They're truly defenseless,

they're truly voiceless. It's not, you know, in a very, very concrete way, they cannot sometimes

defend themselves, they don't even speak the languages, you know, they need help for real.

And also there were, you know, dozens and dozens of migrant workers, film stories that were

told in the last, you know, the last years. I've seen a lot. but I never seen it through

the perspective of someone who's a translator. And also, like, of course, when I write a film,

I think about, you know, the political issues, but I also think in terms of storytelling and

what's, what's going to be a different story that hasn't been told before and all that stuff.

So that to me felt exciting and, and new. I hadn't seen that before, you know, seeing someone

who's a translator, uh, And also that was interesting to me because the translator inside the factory

is the only person who has access to both the worker side and also the manager's sides. So

it allows the viewer to see kind of both sides of the equation and to be able to paint a portrait

that's much more nuanced because it's not like anyone's guilty. specifically it's kind of

the whole system that's a problem. The whole system pits everyone against each other. Everyone

is both in some ways complicit and in some ways a victim of the system. Even the boss himself,

we see him, we see the pressure he faces, he feels from the higher ups above him. So yeah,

it's not about saying there's one individual who's the culprit, it's the whole system, which

is the problem. And it's a chain of exploitation and everyone, including Ariane, including the

workers themselves, because at some point we see that they also exploit each other, are

put in that situation because the system forces individuals to act like that. And at the same

time, when fully exposed to that same system, some people will behave differently. At some

point, that's what happens in the film. Once Ariane realizes that she's a part of that system,

she decides to split with it, she decides to try to put an end to it, and that's why she

begins to disobey her boss and rebel against his orders. Very similar theme to your film

Rebell, where again, I've read interviews where you're talking about the work on that film

and your intention specifically is not to demonize. the easily demonizable. Okay, so for folks

that maybe haven't seen this, this is a short film that is absolutely fabulous. It was shortlisted,

or longlisted, sorry, for the Academy Awards. And, but when you read its synopsis, you might

get a little concerned. You have to give it space because it follows a young boy whose

father, goes out and tries to hunt, it's the word used, and it is hunting people trying

to cross into Canada through unregistered border crossings, right? I don't like to say illegally

because there's nuance there. Illegal immigration doesn't even exist as a technical term in Canada,

I think. Yeah. So at first glance, you're like, oh, I don't. want to see that. But you know,

it follows this boy and how he, once his eyes are open to it, rebels against it, you know.

But you make that comment again, like you could easily demonize the family that he's come from,

right? But that isn't all that helpful, right? It ignores the systemic pressures and influence.

And that's really what you have to get at the root at, right? Rather than shaming a single

individual or even a group of people, like we tend to do sometimes. And that film was actually

very personal, because I come from a region that's very nationalistic and very, not necessarily

racist, but there's, because like in 2017, when I started writing the script, there were actually

militia groups like that, that were popping up, like far-right tendencies that we hadn't

seen before. And they would go to the border and try to intimidate. migrants working, not

exactly in the way that it's portrayed in my film, but there were stuff like that which

didn't exist before, you know. And a lot of people from my hometown would sympathize with

them. And I knew that I grew up with these people and I know that most of them are not evil.

They're not, you know, they're not monsters and you can hang out with them. You can, you

know, go to have dinner with them. And some of them were my friends. But you know, there's...

lack of education and there's fear and there's, you know, and, you know, systemic pressures

and stuff like that. So that was kind of the idea of trying to speak about the place I come

from in a way that was not judgmental, but that didn't excuse either, because obviously I don't

agree with, you know, the characters in my film, but the boy was kind of me realizing that,

oh, I come from, this is where I come from actually. This is... This is my hometown, that's what

they believed in. And you know, having this kind of moment of realization that I don't

agree with where I'm from. So where do I belong with, you know, that was actually very personal

in a way to me. Kind of a coming of age of my own realization that I'm left-wing basically.

Yeah. Oh, no. Safe space, safe space. One thing I'm always curious about is, speaking of that

story is, when people are from areas that are not reflective of who they are today, how did

you get there, I guess? Why would you say that you ended up left-wing? Well, I think I had

left-wing parents, for sure, within that environment. Like my extended family and my friends and

my neighbors were... more right-wing than my household for sure. But then it's moving out

of, moving to the city, of course, moving to Montreal and studying, getting a higher education

and reading about stuff and meeting people, that changes your perspective. But my household

was not racist at all. Like we were very, so I had these values and debt in me, but I didn't,

the people around me were not necessarily agreeing with those values, let's say. Hearing you speak,

like one of the things you said before we started recording just isn't sitting well with me.

You said you weren't an activist. But I disagree. From the stance, like, you're not carrying

a placard or perhaps lobbying a politician, it's clear what you're trying to do. At least

to me, it comes across as simply retelling that story. of transformation. Yours might not have

been of transformation, but that is activism. Perhaps it is, but my, the whole rationale

behind me saying that is because I used to be an actual activist when I was like in my, in

my university years and I, I was arrested a few times and beaten by cops and that when,

that's when I realized like I need to stop doing this. And that's when I shifted my attention

to moviemaking instead. And so I still do activism through my films, but I'm kind of a coward.

So I hide behind films. OK, OK. I'm going to unpack that a little bit because I've got a

lot of people listening who have niches, right? Things that they're really good at, but maybe

don't fall under typical activism. And I like that. We've interviewed a few people now that

like use photography. or filmmaking now and other database entry. Like sometimes it's really,

like I said, niche skills, but it's the purpose behind them that I believe makes you an activist.

And it absolutely takes more than folks getting charged and arrested, even though that was

our last episode. I was talking to people and about that process, but I want to just... remind

people over and over again. It absolutely takes all kinds. Every facet and art has always played

a massive role in shaping narratives, reshaping narratives, and creating a healthier social

fabric. So... There's all ways that people can interject with these oppressive systems and

help tear them down in their own way. Thank you for making me not feel so guilty about

not attending protests anymore. But actually, yeah, it was kind of my thinking also, because

I've seen that, like, the impact that a film can have on an audience. And I showed my film

back in my hometown and in those regions where I would have never thought that the reaction

would have been so positive actually. Like I'm talking about Richelieu, the last feature,

not the short film, but the feature that I did. It felt like people were really, really listening.

Even, we've showed the film in historically very conservative regions of Quebec and people

were, of course. Some might disagree, but in general people were actually very open-minded.

And it just so happens that in the past three years, especially during the COVID lockdown,

when there were stories of migrants dying because of being all lodged in very tight spaces and

stuff like that, people have heard about the issue and it feels like now they're much more

ready to hear about it. And in Quebec, there's also like that... extra complexity because

we feel as a nation, the Québécois, that we were colonized also and that we have suffered

also as victims. So to tell them that perhaps you've been victim in the past, but right now

you're being the oppressor, it's actually very, very painful for people to hear. And sometimes

they react very strongly against that. And I was expecting that sort of reaction from the

Quebec crowd. And that's not what happened at all. People were really, really... ready to

hear that message that yeah, perhaps this is wrong and, you know, we need to do better.

And that's something I've noticed that like my film was able to bring that dialogue in

some very conservative places that I would never have anticipated, you know. You know, I gotta

say, I would definitely obviously consider myself an activist, but part of the reason that I

got to where I am When I look back, there was a film, a documentary that I watched back in

grade nine of high school, and I don't remember the name, but it was about banana republics.

It was about, you know, United Fruit Company and, and what they, the atrocities that they

committed in countries like my home country of Columbia, right? And, and Guatemala, and,

and Guatemala. And absolutely. And, and that. I remember that being a moment in time that

changed something for me. I was always very socially minded, but something about that sent

me down a rabbit hole that was part of what got me to where I am today and the person that

I am today. And so I can absolutely, just from firsthand experience, the power that these

films can have. So, you know. Part of the goal of this podcast is to help create more activists.

And I think that films like yours is a... They carry the same goal. And so I definitely no

gatekeeping of the term here. Because I don't know if I would be where I am. I totally relate

also, like I've seen films, especially when I was studying that, you know, it kind of made

sense that, OK, I can do activism that way. And as much as I mean to pull... the politics

of everything. I'm also about the art form and the storytelling. I wanna make good films that

anyone can go watch, sit in a theater, and even if they're not tuned to the political message,

they can enjoy or have an interesting experience as it is. So I think filmmaking has that power

to kind of reach a wider audience because if you trick them in with... good storytelling

and then you end up telling, you know, stuff that they wouldn't want to hear in other circumstances,

then maybe that's the way to engage a dialogue. You know, that's my thinking. And that brings

me to the Mayworks Festival. You'll be, not debuting, but... Almost debuting. I like in

Toronto, it's gonna be only the second time it's ever been screened. to a live audience

in Toronto. It's played everywhere in Canada, except for some reason in Toronto. It's only

played once, so. What the? Well, you're gonna fix that. But the May Works Festival obviously

do its name. It starts on May 1st. It runs the whole month of May. And it's not just film,

right? So to speak to what you two were just talking about, they use wide a range of mediums

to draw in as much people as possible. And all of it centered on working class issues, things

like inaccessible healthcare in Ontario, the plight of injured workers, housing issues,

land grabs in Pakistan, and a few different analysis of resistance movements, which is

clearly a theme in your film as well, resisting and rejecting the systems around us. We'll

link folks to that festival for sure so they can check out. All of it is free. But participating

in something like this is a great venue for an audience that might already be receptive.

But I think your refusal to not demonize the traditional villains in the story and to really

focus on the system, I think, is what makes it more receptive to the conservative crowds

that you were talking about in Quebec. Did you air it in your hometown, in Enrishaloo? In

the region, yeah. In the biggest city in the region. It actually came out in commercial

theater there, and it did pretty well, much to my surprise. But yeah, because the film

is not pointing fingers to anyone, like, people felt ready to just hear the message, I think.

And that made a difference, for sure. Why are most of your films... focused on empathizing

with migrants? I don't know. You don't? I don't know. Perhaps because it's a pressing issue

right now. I think my generation in general is much more sensitive to that. Like if I compare

it to my parents' generation, especially in Quebec in the 80s and 90s, it was not about

immigration.

But I don't know, I think, you know, it's probably... You know, you make films about the stuff that

keeps you up at night. Because if you're going to be working for 10 years on a single issue,

it's got to be something that really moves you somehow. So, I don't know, maybe a psych analyst

could tell me better why it feels so important to me. But it's something that I read about

every day, and so you end up making films about... the stuff that you feel is relevant and important

and urgent to speak about. Well, we know that feeling. We know that feeling for sure. Sometimes

there's just too much to get upset about. And I appreciate that you're able to focus on something.

I mean, I'm glad you're drawing onto this specifically in Quebec as well, because I think that's a

real huge wedge issue that's easy, exploitable. to the masses and it really distracts. It allows

en masse for people to demonize folks that are just being so heavily exploited. So telling

that side of the story in an entertainment, because not everyone will watch the documentary

either. Some people feel like they're being spoon fed something and they know it. It's

like, the kid knows you've got vegetables on that spoon, but watching your trailer. especially

it's very, you get excited. Like you, I suggest folks get out to see this film. You've talked

about the response from migrant workers and the organizations that are organizing in Quebec.

I read something that was kind of dismaying and I wondered if you could shed light on it

or whatnot, but Guillermo Candes works with migrants in Quebec. he made the statement that

Quebec has a lot fewer organizations and networks to help these workers than we have in Ontario.

And I know we've got quite a few in Ontario, but I wouldn't say that everyone has got ample

resources. So how few resources are there for migrant workers in Quebec and why? Why is there

such a lack of network there? I couldn't compare with what it is in Ontario. I know there is

one very important organization in Quebec, which is called Ratmac, that was founded like in

2016, so not that long ago, but they've been doing a lot, and we've worked a lot with them

in order to organize screenings for migrant workers, actually watch the film and know,

because the film works as a... as a way to open eyes of the Canadian population, but it can

also work as a cautionary tale for Guatemalan workers when they come in Canada and knowing

what to expect. And so Ratmac exists and has been doing a really good job. And I know there's

tons of smaller local organizations. I know because they ask us all the time to screen

the film, but I can't compare to what it is in Ontario and how, you know, how they're...

better suited or better funded or not, you know, I really couldn't know. But there are organizations

to support migrant workers and there are more and more, especially post-COVID, a lot of people

are, because it's such a pressing issue and now the media is talking about it on a regular

basis, people are much more aware than they used to. So things are, if, you know, there's

a glimmer of hope there that is that people are hearing the message and that... Hopefully

things will start to change for real. One of the things that we've heard many times on this

show is the need for people to witness victories and to see successes before they can really

commit their energy to forming a resistance. And so although you called it a cautionary

tale for migrant workers, it also can be a kind of call to arms, not... literally, but you

know, when you see that it is possible that, you know, you are inspired by, and especially

when they, they know they're watching, although they're watching a film, they know they're

not watching fiction, right, because they live and breathe this. So it has that impact as

well. And I hope it also has the impact of, you know, Canadians watching the

the choices that they can make. You could either be the supervisor, you could be the translator,

right? Like you have a choice there. So in the end, making that sacrifice, like it's a big

jump, like from being a sympathizer to actually going to a place where you're willing to sacrifice

your own comfort, you know, there's a gap. And I understand that some people, you know, won't

go that far, but. ever since the film has come out, I got actually a lot of letters from translators

working in similar situation telling me either that they've lost their jobs or that they've

acted in the past or that they're thinking about leaving their jobs for those reasons. And so

I know that character as like an anchor in reality because people related also to that character

in the... in industries that are similar to what's depicted in the film. So yeah, hopefully

it sparks the will of some people to make that final step and not necessarily sacrifice their

own jobs, but willing to disobey and resist in some shape or form. What are you working

on now? I've just finished a short film on... slaughterhouses, so about animal cruelty, also

very, very tough subjects. The food processing industry is not going to like you, my friend.

No, I'm not making any friends there, that's for sure. And then my second feature, I'm almost

done writing it, it's about police brutality, but towards the LGBTQ community. So another

very tough subject. I... I saw Santiago's head whip around when you talked about your next

feature. So please keep us up to date on that. We will keep our eyes out for that. And again,

like I said, we'll link people back to the Mayworks Festival that starts pretty soon. Yeah. Yeah,

by the way, please come. Please come see the film. It's screened on May 1st in this town

hall. I'll be there. There's going to be a discussion afterward. It's free, you know. What do you

really have to do on, I think it's a Wednesday night or Tuesday night, not even sure, but

come and check it out. It's free. And it's May Day, right? Like, perfect way to celebrate

May Day with a film at a festival that's geared towards working class struggle. Yeah, exactly.

That's going to make you very angry and going to make you want to fight afterward, hopefully.

Oh, I think it will. I mean, and that's our crowd. That's who you're speaking to in our

audience, right? So that's perfect. Is there anything you want to share that we didn't draw

out of you? I don't think so. I think I think we went around. Thank you so much for having

me. It was a pleasure. Oh, no. Yeah, the pleasure was all ours. We very much appreciate you taking

the time and the time, I mean, 10 years to tell these stories and to do activism your way.

Thank you so much guys. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank

you for joining us. Also, a very big thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Jaluc

Quintero. Blueprints of Disruption is an independent production operated cooperatively. You can

follow us on Twitter at BPofDisruption. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting the status

quo, please share our content and if you have the means, consider becoming a patron. Not

only does our support come from the progressive community, so does our content. So reach out

to us and let us know what or who we should be amplifying. So until next time, keep disrupting.