when it comes to coaching, That's my heart.

I'm a coach as a father.

I'm a coach as a husband.

I'm a coach as a pastor.

I'm a coach as a friend.

I think the hardest thing for anybody who comes to Potential Church is to

continually be challenged, to not settle.

nothing thrills me more than to see people embrace, something

new to go to new places, take advantage of new opportunitiEs.

Oh,

How can embracing your God given potential transform not only your

life, but also those around you?

Join us on Seek, Go, Create the Leadership Journey as we welcome Pastor Troy

Gramling, the leader of Potential Church.

With a congregation of over 20, 000 members across the United States

and Latin America, Pastor Troy has spent over two decades inspiring

individuals to unlock their divine potential and make a significant impact.

Today, he shares insights from his journey from his days as a college

basketball player and coach to his innovative approaches in ministry.

We'll also discuss his first book, Potential, the uncontainable power

of God within you, and explore how faith be a transformative force

in our lives and communities.

Pastor Troy, welcome to Seek, Go, Create!

It's an honor to be with you today.

You know, one thing I always like to do is honor people with

the title that they should have.

Pastor Troy, Pastor Troy Grambling, Troy, what do you,

what do you like to be called?

Ah, well, what I like to be called?

is Troy.

That sounds, I didn't like the name growing up, but it's, it's

kind of stuck with me for 56 years.

56 years.

Well, I'm a couple of years older than you, so you and I are going to have

a good, uh, seasoned conversation.

Mature conversation that for the for the folks in our age bracket, they'll relate

to it for the folks younger They need to glean from the wisdom that we have

yeah, that's what I try to tell My kids anyways.

My kids too.

My son had dinner with us last night And if he were listening in

he'd sort of roll his eyes just a little bit with that statement.

So

Yes.

Anyway, troy.

Hey first question.

Uh, let's just say you're out somewhere away from maybe your Your

domain, you know, your, your people and someone asks you what you do.

What's your typical answer when people ask you that?

I would tell them that I get the opportunity to lead, to pastor, And to

love on some pretty incredible folks.

And when, when you bring up the word pastor to people that are

outside, let's just call it church world or Christian circles and all.

I mean, I would get it.

A lot of other people listening would get it.

But you bring up the word pastor to people outside of those worlds, what

kind of responses do you get from people?

I'm curious.

it's kind of funny.

more often than not, if they're outside, of that kind of world, I think

I've never got a negative response.

I've never had somebody roll their eyes.

I can tell that they'll say that's good.

but you can tell they really don't have a concept for what that means other than

some kind of religious role, they, have experienced or seen to that kind of thing.

And then just kind of move on, you know, from that.

Standpoint, but I've never really had anybody respond in a, oh, you

know, religion or just some kind of, now they might once I walked away

, Yeah,

but, in the moment, you know, they all tend to be, kind,

but there's always a response.

You know what I mean?

Of some kind.

you know, you have in that role, it's one of the few titles, I asked this question

to start off almost every podcast episode now, 280 in and, you know, a lot of

people in business world, a lot of people that are working on certain projects.

It's like this long, you know, trying to describe what they do.

can typically say pastor and most people have a connection right away and it may

not be great, but it, but they, they know what you're talking about, right?

Oh, Yeah, Well, you know, I get most often, I know the folks who

are listening wouldn't know, but the ones who are watching because

I have the tattoos and different things that people are surprised.

So, a lot of times it'll open up an opportunity for a conversation because

a lot of times they'll guess, you know, you must be I'm kind of tall.

So they'll say you're an athlete or something to that effect.

So it gives the opportunity to have a conversation.

Yeah, I mean just let's kind of set the stage for those just listening

in we are on youtube So if you're watching it, you get it, uh, but but

um I think you look like you could be in like coldplay or something like that

That's kind of the look that I have.

I mean you're kind of tall you got the Tats on the arm, you got an

athletic shirt on, blondish hair.

I know you're down in South Florida and all that, but I, I would say that people

go, huh, are you sure you're a pastor?

Where's your collar?

Yeah, exactly.

Especially down here in South Florida because there's a big Catholic population.

one of my first, uh, contradictions as I was reading through your book.

And I've got a copy of the book here, Potential.

And I want to say this right up front, we're going to be talking

about a lot of stuff, but this book is one of the main topics.

This is my copy and I just finished reading it.

It's dog eared and all of that, but you are listening in, especially if you're

watching this on YouTube, I'm going to give away this copy right here anyone

that pops a comment and says something related to potential or something

related to what we're talking about here.

I will, at my expense, because I actually accidentally bought two copies and Troy

hates that, I know, but I'm going to give you this copy if you put a comment down.

So listen in and I'll give you more instructions later, but As I was

reading this in the first paragraph, I see that you're from a little

town in Arkansas called Paragould.

that right?

Paragould?

some of those together?

there's it actually was started by two different railroad

guys, Paramore and Jay Gould.

I think were their two names.

Ah, that's good.

So they combined it.

Well, what's interesting is that I have driven through that town once.

I think in like northeast Arkansas and, and knew a little bit about

it, but I went to Bible school for a few years out in Colorado.

And there was a guy named Lance.

popped into Bible school about two weeks after up drugs, showed up at Bible school

and Troy, he was from Perigold, Arkansas.

That's my connection to Perigold.

so so I'm sitting here, this is my contradiction, my dichotomy I've got going

on, and I'm going to have you explain it.

You got a guy that grew up in Northeast Arkansas, went to town

Perigold, and it is small town.

Kind of rural ish type thing.

And now, I mean, I'm even looking at it.

You've got the neon behind you and you're in South Florida.

I mean, what's up with that?

That's quite the contrast in culture, if you ask me.

Yeah, it's an incredibly different contrast and a big

change when we first moved here.

Now we've been here for 24 years, but I really think it's

the reason we ended up here.

The reason we left is the church, we had planted the church there in that little

town And you know, you have the, vision and I had never seen a church plant.

I mean, I had no idea how to do it.

This is before books and conferences, you know, the only time another church

started this, if people got mad.

So, you know, to kind of go out and do this, and we started it and

you got the vision, you build, you grow, you see people come to Christ.

And I got that point where I just couldn't see the future.

You know, that I had never experienced that in all my life where it's

like, Hey, here's where we're going.

And then exciting.

And, and we just wanted to be where stuff was happening.

And I'm not talking about just in the church, I just mean traffic,

even, you know, just anything

So I really think that contrast in cultures is really

got a lot to do with how florida.

And the, the cool thing about that, and this is interesting, my wife

and I grew up in the Atlanta area.

we kind of grew up small town, but Atlanta swallowed it up during the

seventies while we were growing up there.

now we're traveling.

We've been traveling for 10 plus years now, and we're in an RV, and

we find ourselves gravitating now to smaller towns, smaller areas.

We're just outside of Rapid City right now, and it's like 80, 000 people.

and there's great things about all places all over the world, I think I'd

love to kind contrast is give me some really cool things about small town

and maybe some challenges and then some really cool things about maybe

the bigger city and some challenges.

And uh, and I think that'll lead into, because I, I think

that ties into potential.

See there are a lot of people that they believe they need to be in the big city

and they may, But then there are a lot of people that they really want to,

they want to go smaller, and they may.

talk about contract, talk about pros and cons of Paragold, small town,

pros and cons of big city, especially now that you've experienced both.

Yeah, I think that one of the You know, you get to know more people because

they tend to stay there longer, you know, and generationally often, folks

whose grandkids, are still, there, I just think there's a big relational

aspect of it and I think that's a really positive, part of growing up in a small

town, because not only relationally in the sense that you know people,

but when you try to get stuff done, there's a greater concern because they

may know your cousin or they, you know, they grew up in, this same small town.

So if you're trying to get your reports at the hospital, or you're trying to

get, something done anywhere, really, there's always these connections.

And even if you don't know the person, they know somebody or you

went to the same school that you did or something that remembered

you playing basketball or whatever.

So there's a lot of that kind of connection that really you take for

granted when you're a small town.

you don't realize that the reason you were able to get that done or the

reason you were able to see that doctor or whatever it was you're trying to

do had to do with where you lived.

when you get to a larger place, what I've discovered is It's

not that people are uncaring.

They're just focused upon themselves.

They don't know you.

They got a lot to do.

And so they're seldom, I'm not gonna say never, but they're not

seldom going to go the extra mile because there's no motivation.

They're never gonna talk to you again.

They don't know anybody, you know, rare, you know, most of the time.

and so, to me, that's a huge.

difference, in the area.

I also think that when it comes to ministry or probably any

business in a small town, it's easier to build a reputation.

You know, it's easier to get the word out because you just

is talking about less people.

And as a result, those folks are apart.

Like we used to do a fair booth when we in the church that we started, you

know, and we would feed the fair workers and we were highly involved in that.

And they have a, thing that they used to have.

I don't know if they still do, but it's called loose caboose.

And we'd be part of the walk for life.

And we'd be a part of all those things in the community, which

would allow us to minister.

And it's also, you know, an opportunity to put yourself out

there, to market yourself, where in a large area, you don't have that.

coming together of everybody.

it's a bunch of different walk for lives and the fair is, 25 miles away

and the folks that are there don't live, do life, you know, you tend to

do life in small sections in a city.

and so it makes it a lot more difficult to get the word out about,

who you are and what you're doing and what you're about in that sense.

Now, again, I think one of the advantages is opportunities and diversity.

you got a diversity of thought, diversity of culture.

And with that comes incredible opportunity.

We're in a small town.

People are kind of settled in their ways.

and so the opportunities aren't, as, there's always opportunity, but not

as, Many, change is more difficult.

I think in a small town, more cultural pushback against change where in there's

so much change in a large area, you know, people are coming and people are

leaving and new businesses are starting.

And so, you know, there's always, Some challenge to change, but it's easier,

you know, it's not as, necessarily tied to you, you know, you don't

become the black sheep because of some change you made or in a small town.

you tend to do that.

and then just the pace of life, I think is a lot.

I mean, you can run fast in a small town, but you have to run fast in a larger area

if you're going to succeed, to any extent.

Yeah,

about to ask about the pace, because in my mind I'm sitting here thinking

about that one time I drew Drove through Paragold and then also I've driven down

I 95 in South Florida, Fort Lauderdale.

We've actually spent some of our time down in that area.

And I noticed that I just gripped the steering wheel different when

I'm driving on the interstate.

You know, there's a little bit of a heart rate going and things like that.

go ahead and start bringing up potential into it.

Uh, I think many times people believe.

They're supposed to go to a certain place or follow someone or do something

like that very similar to the example you used throughout and I'm going

to love this conversation is Moses throughout the book is, you know,

Moses had three, what I consider three phases to his life and and I believe

that many of us have those phases too.

It sounds like Troy had a small town phase and now there's a bigger city phase and.

a little bit about how important it is for everybody to kind of have their,

this goes to a journey question, to have their own journey and not attempt

to be copying the potential of someone else, which is a big topic for me.

I think, one it's easy to get in a hurry, right?

So in our effort to succeed, we tend to say, okay, here's a person who

succeeded and, the quickest route may be for me to try to become them.

And I think there's a temptation to do that, especially when things

aren't going the way you want them.

it's like, should I go like this person or be like that person?

but I think when you think about it in the context of potential, it's always God.

We were in the heart and mind of God before he ever created us.

So I'm gonna find my greatest success.

I'm gonna glorify God the best when I'm who he created me to be.

And so I can slow down and embrace that.

The season that I'm in, whether that's a season of building, you know, and

depending on your age, depending on where you're at financially,

depending on where your family, are you single, are you married, do you

have kids, do you have grandkids?

I think all those things kind of impact the season that we find ourselves in.

And I think when, again, if we can slow down and dis it's

okay to discover, you know?

And I, I know 'cause for me, the big change was.

At the church I started, I've been at three churches.

I originally before I wasn't expecting to be in pastor and it was a hundred

year old Mount Zion Baptist Church.

And then years later, we started the church and then I'm here.

but I think in that church we planted, I planted the church

because God had given me a vision.

Here, I didn't come here to be the lead pastor.

So I had to wait.

Okay, God, why am I here?

You know, why have you opened this door for me?

Where is it you want me to lead?

How do I embrace who I am, especially in this different culture from

what I experienced in Arkansas.

And I do think in those seasons, you may borrow from somebody, but you're, you

know, that you can't ever stop searching.

I remember when I was playing basketball, I had a coach and he

told us, if you sprain your ankle or something, you put a brace on it.

He said, but you want to get the brace off as soon as you can, because if you

don't, your ankle will begin to rely upon it and it'll become permanently weak.

and I think the same thing can happen when we're with our voice.

you know, if I'm not sure where we're supposed to go, I may borrow

Rick Warren's baseball diamond or, somebody else's, whatever.

But if I start relying on those things, then all of a sudden it's like that

brace, I lose the ability to find my voice and I'm never going to be as effective

being somebody else or being in somebody else's season as I am, with my voice.

And I think, you know, to me, that's, The most important part

of potential is the belief.

I think the reason we do that a lot is because we give up on our own potential.

We, the own idea that God can do something great with our lives, you know, and

so we're like, well, I'll borrow his greatness or her greatness, you know,

and maybe it'll rub off on me when, I mean, I get chills every time I think

about the fact that I'm intentional.

God created me.

And now sometimes I get frustrated about that because I got

couldn't have done a better job.

I mean, you look at this nose or ears or whatever it might be.

But I think, man, if he created me intentional, he didn't create me to fail.

Then I can pursue who he's made me to be.

I need to discover that and embrace that and, you know, grow that part of who I am.

one of the interesting things that I think is very challenging for

leaders, I see this in business.

I work with leaders and leadership teams, primarily in companies, some

in ministries, primarily in companies.

and and I do see people at times attempting to copy somebody

else, but I don't know if this is just an observation of mine.

You can correct me if I'm wrong or anything like that, but I see

a lot copying what we'll call that pastor church world role.

You know, a lot of programs that someone will say, Oh, well, these people

have added blank number of people.

We need to do something similar and all that.

And I bring that up because I'd love for you to comment on it, and you know, I'm

not asking you to throw anybody under the bus or anything like that, but I'd like

for you to comment on it, and then maybe follow it up with, it seems as if, I don't

know, you mentioned intentional, I don't know how intentional this is, it seems

as if you were Sort of push the envelope to, to either be different or do your own

thing, reach your own potential might be a way of saying it by, you know, doing

things like you talk about in the book, living in a glass house, which I'm sitting

here reading you talking about that sermon and all, and you and your wife, I'm like

going, good gracious, I'm what a woman she is to put up with that type stuff.

I like to meet that Stephanie, you um, talk talk a little bit about the industry.

Let's talk about pastors in general and how they are.

They seem to be copycats a lot, so you could comment on that, and then

talk about what you've done to maybe avoid that to reach your potential.

Yeah, I mean, I think There's probably some truth to that because

of the ease of information, right?

You know, what anybody's doing, you're able to discover.

And I think some of it is a result of just the time crunch, and the demands of

ministry, creativity is one of our ethos.

And we talk about the definition to just stay in the room

past the first idea, right?

But that takes time.

And some people are more wired administratively.

So it's like, where do you want to eat first place that somebody comes up

with their ready to go or somebody else going to say, well, what about here?

And so I think in ministry, a lot of times what happens is,

it's accessible, you know, and

not only is it accessible to the pastor, but the pastor is going every

weekend and hearing about so and so.

Oh man, did you hear so and so's teaching or man?

I downloaded seven so's worship album and you know, so the pastor's dealing

with man, you know, I'm competing, you know, I always think of it this way.

I'm competing with them, listening to their favorite teacher, talk

about their favorite subject.

And I'm trying to teach the whole Council of God's Word,

you know, on a weekly basis.

So, I think pastors feel that pressure.

and then I think, you know, that week gets busy and, you know,

Here's a program or a teaching or whatever, and they jump, into that.

I think the important thing is if you're going to, you know, borrow

whatever word you want to use there, maybe steal what some would say, I

think the question you have to ask yourself, is this, is this really me?

Is this passion from me?

And, because if you do, there's going to be a transformation of it in some way.

You know what I'm saying?

Whether it's a teaching or, Hey, you guys have this thing.

And so we're going to do it as well.

If I went to both, I might see that it's similar, but I'd struggle

to see that it's the same, you know, where you got it per se.

to me, that's one of the things I think it's important is to, again, like we were

talking earlier is to be a vulnerable and to be authentic and to be real because

people can pick up on that really quick.

And I think, There's that danger that you have to steer away from.

For me, there's a part of me that is, creative.

And so I'm curious.

So I'm always asking questions.

And so that makes it easier for me to be original.

You know what I mean?

Just because I'm wired that way.

I remember.

The first time I heard, live Pastor Joel speak, you know, and he's telling all

these old preacher jokes that I heard when I was a kid going to conferences

and people are dying laughing.

And I'm thinking, you know, I stopped sharing those, little stories or whatever.

And yet they continue to be effective in the sense of drawing those

crowds in because people love that.

So I think.

If you're noticing it, right, then I have to ask myself, is it really me?

You know, if you can see clearly that I'm just following along here

and I think as a preacher, as a pastor, as a leader, I just got to

be careful that I don't lose myself.

Here's

know,

here's the weird thing about that, it's just interesting you bring it up.

Pastor Joel, who kind of, we'll call it reusing, maybe playing the greatest hits.

You know, there's a, there's a line from a movie.

If you go see the Rolling Stones and they don't sing Satisfaction,

you're going to be pretty ticked.

And I've been seeing clips on social media of the Eagles, which is a

band from know, formative years.

it's now 50 years in.

you know, the first song that.

rip into his hotel, California.

And it's like, if you went to see them, I think they're at the sphere now.

And Ella, I mean, Las Vegas, if you go to see them and they don't play

hotel, California, you're you're probably gonna be pretty miffed.

I

they.

Play those same, Don Henley has been playing that song forever.

You know, I don't think they're cranking out any new stuff.

So there is a little bit of a repeat and then also there's create.

And I think, I think we're probably getting to a place where there's

not a lot of new under the sun.

But I think Tim can make it his, Troy can make it his and, and I

think that's where we can maybe tie into the, to the potential talk.

I do want to say in the book, it's very rare that I get references like

Yoda, Bob Marley, Karate Kid and all that all in like one book and tie all.

Tie all that together.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

uh, so, so related to, uh, let's still keep on this theme of potential.

What I'd like to do is back up a little bit, cause you talk about

a good bit of some highs and some lows in your life in the book.

But I think what I'd love to do right now, cause in here, here on our podcast,

we don't shy away from defining success.

when we define it though, we don't, we don't really look at the superficial.

of success.

we we talk about redefining success.

And I even think you had a reference on one of the pages I saw highlighted it

where you mentioned, um, a redefining of success, but what are some things

go back, let's, let's look at the Troy story here, go back and tell me a few

times over the course of your life.

you've had to redefine what success looks like and I think I'm gonna go

ahead and tee it up a little bit I'd love for you to go back to your sports

days because I find that people that have aspirations of Athletics it can

often be difficult when they realize that they're not going to live off athletics

for a long time longer period of time.

So if you want to do something different, that's fine.

But I'd love to hear definitely about the basketball and coaching and So when

are some, when are some times you've had to redefine success in your life?

think, as I stopped playing basketball, because, in basketball,

you have a scoreboard and it's very defined, and not only you have a

scoreboard, you have stats, right?

And what a good basketball player is pretty defined.

if you score this many and this percentage, then

you're this style of player.

And at the end of the game, you win or you lose.

And I remember, because I wasn't planning on going into ministry,

I was planning on coaching.

I mean, that was really what.

the direction I thought I was headed.

and that was difficult to wrestle with.

So what is success?

I can step down off the platform and I can have one person say, man,

God used that to change my life.

And another person be incredibly critical about what I did, same teaching.

So did I win or did I lose, did I honor God?

Well, that's a harder question to answer.

I mean, I've got what I feel the spirit, in my heart and I've got the people that

I trust, but those are subjective, right?

Because we're all people and we like and dislike and, and all of that.

So I, to me, that's the one that maybe I have struggled with the most is

because, I mean, I don't like losing, but I like to know when I'm losing.

Yeah.

and, and in, ministry, you often hear people will say, well, if we just

reach one person, if we just touch one person and that always sounds really

good, but some has touched one person

And it's not that that one person doesn't matter.

Jesus left the 99 to go after the one, the one does have great value,

but the question is always what's the best way in which to reach the one,

and, but having to redefine it there, I think, was incredibly challenging.

And I don't know, along the way, If I've ever actually, I mean, I can say

something, but what do I feel, because success from my mouth and from my heart

are often different things, I mean, I know what I'm supposed to say success is,

but then I also know the pressures of.

of the external things that people would declare success.

and so I think for me, that's a continuing wrestling match, and

then I think as I get older, like I'm not going to, I'm going to die.

Do I retire?

I've got kids that are in the ministry that are gifted and some of the same

areas as me, so am I in the way of them?

Am I in the way of the church?

when does that happen?

you got.

the Erwin McManus is 66, 67, still going strong.

You got, I know Bill Hybels at one time in the early fifties was

thinking about, succession and stuff.

So you got it all over the board and figuring out what God wants

and what's best for the church.

and then, what success looks like in those things during covid is

another time having to redefine, speaking to an empty auditorium.

We put actually, we took, from our database.

We took pictures of people and put them on the chairs.

because here, you know what?

It's so funny because.

you often hear preachers say, I love to preach.

It's the people that give me a difficulty.

And, I love opportunity to lead and coach.

So I, I enjoy people in that sense, but I didn't know how

much until COVID to be honest.

I, I, I mean, It, it, was, emotional in a way to, to teach not, there's

the lack of energy of an empty crowd, nobody there, there's all of that.

I just felt a longing that I didn't know I really would have, because in some

ways pastors got What they always wanted during COVID, you couldn't be around

people, but you still had to preach, I remember the first weekend we opened

up and you're thinking, whoo, we're gonna have this giant crowd of people.

Of course we didn't.

But I just remember the emotional aspect of seeing people, out there

and realizing that God, whatever we do is, is again, intentional.

And that as a pastor, I have a calling that impacts my heart in

ways that I don't always understand.

and that was one of those times where it's like, okay, this is, this You

know, and during that whole time you're thinking, what does, success look like?

is it this number, is it this amount of changed lives, all

those different kinds of things.

So I think we're, and then we're always changing too and growing.

So in some ways.

my kids, grandkids, their lives, so I don't know if that

answers your question, but it

is a continual process.

it does, I think it highlights challenge that we all face

in attempting to define it.

there are a couple things that came to mind while you were saying that,

Troy, and I'll bring them up here.

One of the things when I'm doing research and doing bios and all for the podcast,

I, I kind of look at things and I go, I go, That's That's an interesting thing.

but one of the things that always occurs with pastors, I'm not saying

this is a good thing or bad thing.

I'm just going to kind of call it out and then we can discuss it is

there's usually a number associated with the size of their congregation.

And, and I think we feel compelled to do that.

You know, I think 20, 000 members is kind of the number that y'all have.

I guess, I guess a question I want to ask you right here is, is that a good

measure of success for, for church world.

I I don't know.

I I ask it a lot.

Sometimes I could be cynical too, by the way, just so you know, to go ahead

and telegraph that I could be cynical.

Am I going in 20, 000?

But anyway, what do you, is that a good measure when we're talking uh, world.

And so I'm going to pour gas on the conversation you just gave about, you just

had about, you know, how to do success.

Yeah.

it's a number that the cultures determined, define success.

it represents some sense of influence.

And influence can be a positive thing.

I guess like any number it can, drive you to, to, to destruction,

and your pursuit of it, with, cause in some sense it's power, right?

So you got money, you got power, right.

And the pursuit of either one of those, can be destructive.

I don't know if the number's good or bad.

I do think it's part of our culture's definition of success to some sense.

I think, the number without changed lives, which is kind of difficult to do

If you're going to have that many folks, whatever the number is,

depending on the size of the city you're going to have something happening

to draw those kinds of folks, so I don't know if it's, good or bad.

I think it's what he is.

And I think as a pastor, we all know what to say.

We all know it.

But at the end of the day, when I go talk to a publisher about this book, that

number matters, you know what I mean?

And, just like, how many are following you on this or that handle

or watching, all those things.

So it's, hard to say, well, they don't matter.

Because whether you get your book published, they matter or not,

and then, whether you're, able to do that ministry, the offering

number matters on what you can do.

So, I don't know if that answers your question.

it's, it's it's really good.

It shows the contradictions that can occur.

And, and I love that.

I love, I kind of loved the rawness of the way you answered it and listen, I

read the number when I introduced you.

Yeah, so so it's not, you know, if, if it was, if it was like, no, I'm

really uncomfortable that I would have left it off, but no, you're right.

Publishers look at it.

It's a measurement.

I think at times those numbers can begin running us instead of us allowing

the numbers to just be a descriptor.

And again, we, we've got business people listening in, you know, I've,

I've, Is my company a 5 million, 10 million, 20 million, 30 million company?

Those are numbers.

You know, how many employees do we have?

All those are numbers there's a question kind of related to that.

You brought it up just a second ago you've mentioned athletics.

We talked about you kind of being a coach.

I call myself a coach.

When I was growing up, both my parents were educators, Troy, and I wanted to

uh, probably a teacher and a coach.

And then I found out how much money they made, and I didn't want to do it anymore.

So I went to Georgia Tech, got an engineering degree and all that.

But everything I did, I came back to coaching.

I, Picked up and I'm gonna ask is I'm gonna pose it.

I'm gonna make it a Statement and then I'll just put a question mark

at the end of it as I was reading this book potential I knew a little

bit about your athletic background.

I know you're a pastor So you get up in front of uh, you know, you get on a

stage and you speak But to me it seems as if you're sort of a coach heart like

that's like a core Belief system of you and even when you get up in front

of crowds, maybe larger crowds You're still interested in that aspect of the

individual and that's probably the reason for the book potential here We'll talk

about the book here in just a second.

But would that be accurate?

Or not.

And just tell me more on what I just said.

Yeah, let me just go back to our other discussion real quick, if

that's okay, because I was thinking, I think when it comes to the numbers,

a lot of times the numbers, whatever business church or whatever, the

enemy tends to use those things to.

Push us against one another, like in the pastoral world, you'll hear someone

maybe who leads a smaller number church, whatever number you want to put there,

but they'll say, well, that mega church down the road, they, whatever, but where

they, when that couple is struggling, they come to me for counseling, now as

someone who might lead a larger church, I would say, yeah, but when your kids

want to go to camp, they come to us.

In other words, they coexist together.

And for the kingdom, they play a different role.

I think a lot of times our sense towards numbers is kind of the, I made

a commitment a long time ago when I was at the church we had started, I just

wasn't, I never asked anybody about their numbers, I'd never began that discussion

there because if your numbers aren't good, that's the last, because it is evaluated.

You know what I'm saying?

It's the last question that people ask.

So I only bring that up to say, I think, in all walks of life, if somehow

we realize that there is a role, an important role, a significant role for

leaders of all different size companies and churches, and that there's not

The perfect size, in the sense that we both need each other to be able to best

give, the folks that we're trying to reach, a good product or, ministry or

whatever it is that we're involved in.

when it comes to coaching, That's my heart.

I'm a coach as a father.

I'm a coach as a husband.

I'm a coach as a pastor.

I'm a coach as a friend.

I think the hardest thing for anybody who comes to Potential Church is to

continually be challenged, to not settle.

nothing thrills me more than to see people embrace, something

new to go to new places, take advantage of new opportunities.

And nothing grieves me greater than to see people waste opportunities or.

Not commit, not willing to give it everything they've when I was

playing basketball in college in high school, a small school.

I grew up in a small town, but when I got to college, we ran 40.

We ran forties and I never ran one of those in high school.

I didn't play football.

I played basketball.

Had to run track to play basketball.

Coach said that I ran a 40 and I was the fastest one on the team.

That surprised the coach and it surprised me now.

I didn't realize what I was doing because then the coach said, he said, you know

what, from this day forward, I expect you to rent, win all running girls.

And I got thrown out of practice one time because I didn't win.

Yeah.

so I kind of come from that mindset, if you're going to run, you better run with

all that you got, if you're going to, I remember we were running down the Hill.

We had this player, seven foot tall, he falls, we're running the Hills.

He falls, he cuts his hand wide open.

And then the coach is like, we'll get done running.

We'll take him to the mercy room, And so nothing grieves me more than to

see someone with potential, in their marriage or in their walk with God

to, to settle for less than that.

So yeah, that's what excites me, to get the opportunity to hopefully, help

people pursue their potential there, what God's called and created them to do.

You know, one of the things that a lot of people say is that it's

the role of the church to disciple, and a lot of people that sometimes

they don't know what that means.

They don't understand discipling.

And I think sometimes people think that standing up in front of,

uh, you know, a large crowd and sharing a message is discipling.

And there may be.

parts of it.

But really do think that that coaching mindset that you just

described, I think that's kind of the heart of discipleship today.

any thoughts on that?

Especially since discipleship is such a big word in in churches.

I really, when I heard you talking about it ago, he is discipling people

because he's got that heart of a coach.

Um, and also is that, would that be accurate, inaccurate?

Uh, you want to agree, disagree or whatever?

Yeah, I think, discipleship has a lot of different definitions and it's

one of those things we all, you know, people, growth is hard, so it's always

something we can focus on, We're not, um, doing a good job in this or that.

I think that, what's a disciple?

And I think there's nothing more glorifying to God than for us to

become what he had in mind when he knew us together in our mother's womb.

and so it's the pursuit of that.

and, what is that?

What is it that makes our heart beat?

What is it that keeps us up at night?

those kinds of pursuits I think is, and to not let people settle for less,

Because discipleships gets associated often with knowledge.

You know what I mean?

What do you know?

And what do you not know?

And it's like.

I think I can know a lot and still not be who God's created me

to, to be and experiencing what he's created me to experience.

so yeah, I never really understood, the, the, that I understand

people need to be discipled.

I also understand there's, Jesus had difficulty with it.

at the end of his ministry, what was 120 people in the upper room.

So, what makes us think that?

we're going to reach a thousand people and have a thousand disciples or

100 or 50 or whatever the number is.

I think a lot of times the problems, what we do as Christians is we all, we

advertise things we don't have ourselves.

And what I mean by that is we talk a lot about peace.

We talk a lot about joy.

We talk a lot about, if you're a true disciple, then those things are evident.

And yes.

I, there is a joy and there is a peace, but there are days that I doubt

there are days that I'm discouraged.

There are days that I'm troubled.

Right.

And it's that Jesus walks with me through those.

Everybody's going to experience those, The scripture and the spirit and Christ

himself, give me a constructive way to deal with those things where somebody

else may go down a destructive path.

But it's not that I don't experience him.

And I think sometimes as Christians, somebody becomes a Christ follower or

whatever, and then they're discouraged and they're like, I must have not got it.

You know, I didn't get the good stuff or whatever.

and it's like, no, there really is a process to this.

We're pretty good at, uh, judging the fruits of the Spirit in other people.

We're not really good at judging it in maybe.

think you shared it in the book, but how the heck does somebody

come up with the name of potential?

Church.

have, I've traveled a lot all over the world, Australia, New

Zealand, Europe, all over, and have never run into potential church.

How'd that come about?

It's kind of a God thing in the sense that we were Flamingo Road originally.

before I got here, it actually used to be Flamingo Road Baptist Church.

Then they changed it to Flamingo Road Church.

And then we went multi site and, you know, pink birds aren't known everywhere.

We have a campus of nine months.

So we said, we need to change our name in 2010 is when we changed it.

And it's like, well, what do we need to be called?

And if you went way back to the day of day timers, okay, for your listeners,

this is before smartphones and all that, and you would have to ride.

In the front of it, like your mission or your vision or something like that.

And if I could find mine, you go back and it would say something very

similar to what our mission statement is today, as far as helping people

reach their potential to become what God's created them to be.

That's just been a part of me as far back as I can remember.

And I used to take all my guys to go to church with me

when I was playing basketball,

Just that desire to see them become more.

And so that's where it came from.

And then, you know, in 2010, it's the, you know, handles are still important.

we were able to get all the handles, for all the social media stuff and it

fit, with who God's created me to be.

Cause I really think when it comes to pastoring that God brought me

here because of who he made me to be.

I am who I am.

Now, when God gets ready to do something different, he's going

to bring somebody with a different personality to lead them to a different

place, but I can't be all things.

You know what I'm saying?

I'm not John MacArthur to, you know, who has a different style.

I mean, I can't imagine John MacArthur with some tattoos on his arms.

That's not mean his style is bad.

It just means I can't.

You, I grew up for your young listeners.

There used to be this kind of thing on the weekend where for the, you know,

we're gonna reach down church midweek.

We're gonna be for the believers.

You know what I mean?

And it's like, If you were to go back and we did that, I mean, you know,

it's, that was the end thing to do.

Talk about following, you know, trends.

That's what we did.

but if you went back and listened to both those teachings, , it would

sound very similar because that's who I am, you know, I mean, and I, again,

I just wish we could have more grace.

Truth is truth, and we don't wanna drift from the truth.

But man, I just wish we could have more grace.

for one another and that it's not, I don't want to teach this or I'm afraid of that.

Or because if I teach the same thing on a social issue, let's say that maybe a

john MacArthur might teach on that issue.

It's just gonna sound different for me.

It's not that I'm going to say anything different or not be as strong.

It's just going to sound different because of the way I'm wired and called to be.

And if I try to be John MacArthur, I'm not as smart as he is.

I have his education and, I can't pronounce the Greek language.

So I would be in a world of hurt, but that's okay where he needs to

be doing what he needs to be doing.

Oh, we've got these on YouTube and I've just had this vision of when

you brought up John MacArthur with tattoos, I had this vision of.

bringing in a graphic with John McArthur with tattoos, but then I'm

thinking Then my next thought goes, you know, we could be liable there could

be some could be something coming.

It would probably generate a lot of interest and all of that

So I I love the word potential.

In fact, you'll hear me when I wrap up We're 280 episodes in on this podcast

and my last sentence Is always be all that you were created to be and which

to me is the definition of potential But did you get any pushback at all?

I mean, come on, Flamingo Road Church, that is, that is sexy right there.

Did someone say, no, we're Flamingo Road, dang it, we are not

moving into this potential stuff.

I mean, what was that transition like?

Was it okay?

Yeah, you know, we worked hard, included people and the whole process.

And then, I'm sure people said that, that you just didn't say it to me, but, we

didn't have a lot of pushback and, that's the good and the bad of south Florida.

It's very unchurched area.

I read an article the other day.

west Palm Beach is the most never churched city in the country, you know?

So the good with that is there's not a lot of church stuff.

people pretty well go along, but the other side of that, they really don't

care enough to do other things, you know, so has the good and the bad.

So somewhere along the way.

you've got church going along, you've got a lot of things happening,

you've got podcasts, you've got all these cool things going on.

You decided to write a book that was by the same name, Potential, and you even

talk about in here that writing isn't

your favorite thing.

I might be putting words into it, but why write book?

I feel like this is one of those areas where actually I

feel like I was disobedient.

there's not a lot of things where I just know God was telling me to do

something and I just didn't do it.

so God, I feel nudge and I just like, ah, well, if God wants me

to do this, it'll happen, and I don't have a clue what that meant.

it's going to fall out of the sky.

That's not the way I pastored.

That's not the way I fathered.

That's not the way I, but, and then, but it, so to me, it just got, came to

getting around to just being obedient.

I had the, the ministry team here pushing me, and realizing that

cause, I was always the shy kid.

So, you continue to wrestle through with that, but realizing to that it would

have a positive impact on the church.

we live in a day where people go to social media before they

visit the church and they, you know, we're talking about numbers.

They're going to judge before they ever show up whether or not

God's there by certain numbers.

And the book is just another way, to garner influence.

I believe in the message with all of my heart.

I'm passionate about it.

So it just made sense to, go ahead and do it.

I learned a lot along the way.

It was hard.

The writing part was easier than I thought, but the process was a lot

more challenging than I realized.

Hmm.

What'd you learn about yourself along the way?

I had to wrestle with.

sometimes it's easier to be comfortable, not succeeding than

to take the risk to succeed.

And what I mean by that is, you know, it's one thing to say, I wrote a

book, I remember hearing John Maxwell a long time ago, he'd sell his books

And some people would be cynical, all he's doing is making money.

But I always thought he just really believes in what his message is.

I'm sure he made some money along the way, but, He really believed in that, and

I think, being confident enough to say, look, I think this can impact your life

in a positive way, can be encourage you.

it's an easy read.

It's, that kind of thing, but having confidence in it I can get

up and speak with great confidence.

English wasn't always my greatest subject when it came to spelling and

writing it's just amazing to me that those things that I felt in middle

school and high school, I can still feel as a 56 year old man, I think the

thing I learned about me is still, I don't want to not succeed because I'm.

more comfortable being the underdog,

Yeah.

as opposed to being the one that's expect because I think, you know,

it's always a lot more pressure when you're the one that's expected to win

and you don't, whatever that means.

ways, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier is like, how, how

do we even measure success in this realm?

What is the potential of a book that's titled potential, you know, is, is kind

of an interesting conversation to have.

I'll say it's it's a great read.

it's it's not a complex read, which I like by the way, just so you know,

I actually saw a lot of Troy Perigold and Troy, South Florida, that I kind

of like the marrying of that, uh, in in a book like this, because I think

it relates to a lot more people.

I think it really helps to expand that out.

Um, I found for myself, it's really tough for me to multitask when I'm writing.

Other things I can multitask.

I could like, you know, I could be, I could speak.

Sometimes I could even do this kind of stuff and like have other stuff going on.

I don't like to, writing when I'm writing, man, I've got to be on.

I can't, my mind can't go other places.

And that was probably the toughest thing for me about writing.

Cause I'm kind of an action oriented.

You're you seem action oriented and sitting down and putting,

you know, 50, 000 or whatever, how many words you got here?

That's like a, that's a lot of focus So, uh, there's one chapter

that I, that I loved and I love in our, time together, maybe to kind

of unpack that just a little bit.

It was chapter six, where you kind of, you dove into a little bit of what happened

with potential church and yourself around COVID, and then you you'd been referencing

the story of Moses all along, you really dug in a little bit more to some

lessons learned from the life of Moses.

What, what, what do you want to share here in a couple minutes?

About that whole chapter because to me that's like that

was like the heart of the book

Yeah, I think the great study of Moses is, you know, this incredible

leader that scholars and everyone would agree was an amazing leader,

incredibly insecure, in some ways he's perfect who God chose, right?

He was rescued, grew up in the palace, but when God He was nowhere.

He was nobody.

And he didn't grow up with the Hebrew teachings.

He grew up in the Egyptian God's teachings.

God chose him.

And he had tried once and failed.

and yet, God did something incredible in his life.

And I think the biggest challenge to success is discouragement.

one of the things that we continue to learn from Moses is that it's

never too late, whether you've made a mistake or you're older than you

thought you should be or whatever it is.

because to me, the saddest thing is when you feel that you can no longer.

reach that potential, accomplish that purpose, live out your destiny.

you lose hope in the future and you're just existing.

Yeah, could you could you picture I always think about Moses because

he was in the palace for 40 years Probably being groomed to be Pharaoh

or a type of Pharaoh leader and then he was he wasn't in the desert for 40

He was on the backside of the desert.

was and and then for 40 years he spent with

This is going to sound cynical, but with a grumbling, complaining

group of church people.

He was with a bunch of church people for

Yeah.

And then at the very end, he got a glimpse of the promised

land, but he didn't into it.

You know, I, I think it goes back to the conversation we were

having earlier, Troy, is, know, we define success in a lot of ways.

And I think if some people were going to define Moses, they would

try to say he wasn't successful.

But yet, thousands of years later, we're still talking about him as one

of the greatest leaders of all time.

Correct?

Yeah.

There's no doubt about that.

And there's no doubt that, I think it's, one of the most inspirational,

but scary, you know, when you think that he missed it, you know, and, that just

reminds you the importance of every day,

And like even even in our situation where, you know, we'll lift up a prayer

on Monday and be disappointed if it's not answered by Friday or Sunday.

And Moses is sitting here, 40, anyway.

I Think Think about that, especially when I do my read through the Old

Testament, sometimes when I do it chronologically, I'm going, know, we

don't have any perspective on time

all in

know, they were enslaved for 350 years.

and then when they get free, God takes them the roundabout way.

He doesn't take him straight there, You know, it's like Oh, my goodness.

there's like a, the second in command, Josh was in charge and

they're about to go in and fight.

And then all of a sudden there's this instruction of like, all right,

all y'all need to get circumcised.

I don't want to go into detail there, but that would not be like To me,

a great preparation for battle.

don't know.

It's such a great story.

It really is because we can all identify with it on our journey, no

matter where we're at in that journey.

Yeah, Troy, there's one word that you brought up.

I want to bring it up before we kind of wrap uh, I think,

let me see if I wrote it down.

I had a highlight.

was on page 152.

You're talking about leadership and there's a word you bring up called hubris.

Cockiness, arrogance, whatever, we could kind of throw a lot of things in there.

I think you're speaking of it as it's one of the challenges that leaders,

and again, we've got ministry leaders, we've got corporate leaders, we've got

small business leaders listening in.

Talk a little bit about how challenging hubris can be.

then we'll wrap up with a couple of questions and be done here.

So how does it, how is that the kryptonite to most leaders?

Hubris.

Yeah, I think, you're going to attract folks who agree with you for the most

part in whatever it is that you're doing.

And if you have some success, then it's very easy to get caught up

in, that success and the belief then that that leads to, what You

deserve, you know, this is what I did this, and that kind of ownership.

And I think humility on the other side is not denying your success,

but as understanding from where it comes from, cause if we look at

it like Moses and we realize I'm not guaranteed the promised land.

This is, you know what I mean?

God's given me these gifts and you know, they're not, what did they say?

Lifetime warranty kind of thing.

You know, that the humility is understanding this is, I'm a steward

of this and, you know, because it keeps you humble because you, then you're

having to determine every day, how do I be a good steward of this influence

or this position or this money because the moment, and I think the it's so

dangerous is because To become arrogant is to not have to deal with the tension.

The moment I start to believe I've earned it and deserve it.

And it's my right now, and I'll have to deal with the tension of should I do

this or, you know, whatever the risk is.

But so I think it's just continuing to remind myself I'm a steward.

And, you know, I want to finish well, but I think it's a continued, challenge.

I mean, we see, you know, we screw up until the day we die.

So we're never beyond that ability to, to become arrogant.

Yeah, and one of the things, obviously, there's a lot of leaders

that have struggled with that.

Some have had challenges.

Is there anything just like a tip or thought, something that you do

attempt to stay grounded, to keep that humility, to not let that hubris,

dis ease kind of Creep in anything that you could recommend to other

leaders that they can do that sure.

Listen, you know, if you're a listening person, you will attract folks who will

be honest with you don't listen, then people give up and all of a sudden they

only tell you what you want to hear, which as a leader, you got to remember

that for the most part, most people are going to tell you what you want to

hear, whether it's the truth or not.

they're gonna tell you they can do something and then complain later

that they have to do it, you know, and not because they're mean, that's

just the way we are as humanity.

but if you listen to people and you value their opinion, I think

you're more likely to get the truth.

which can protect you, from, making a horrific decision.

So, uh, I know, I know the book is something people are going to

want, but they may want to connect with you or potential church.

And I know you've got podcast and YouTube and like that.

Uh, Troy, tell everybody where they can find you and the book and

we'll include it down in the notes.

Yeah.

The book can, wherever they buy books, Amazon, all those kinds of

things would love if they do get it and read it, leave a review.

Those things, the algorithm is king when it comes to that kind of stuff.

And then as far as me, it's my name, Troy Grambling on All the social medias.

And then for the weekend teaching, she can go to potentialchurch.

com or the same, with all the social media handles.

All right, very cool.

We'll include all that down in the notes.

We're Seek, Go, Create.

Troy, those three words, you could probably guess the origins of those words.

I'm going to allow you to choose one of those over the other two.

That just, you know, resonates more with you, means more.

Seek, Go, or Create, and Why.

You know, they're all good words, but I think, seek to me is the

one that jumps off to me today.

And I think it's because I think there's incredible opportunity and curiosity

and a willingness to, I think the other two might even come from the first one.

and it's easy to lose the desire to seek.

Seeking takes energy and, you know, if you have any kind of success

in your life, it's easy to stop.

seeking, stop reading, growing, learning, asking the questions.

So that's one that jumps out at me.

Absolutely.

Yep.

There's a reason they're in that order, too.

They, the Lord spoke those to me a number of years back at one

of the lowest points in my life.

So, Troy Gramling, I appreciate this conversation.

I love, I love you allowing my sometimes interesting and odd

questions that uh, that I ask.

Get a copy of the book, Potential.

Uh, we told you earlier about where you could go if you are listening in and still

with us Especially if you're on youtube drop down in the comments pop a comment

in there talk about potential comment on something We've said and I have an extra

copy of the book like I said, I got two and will uh pick someone in the comments

and drop a copy of Troy's book to you.

So man, it's been a great conversation Appreciate everyone listening in

appreciate Pastor Troy taking the time Looking forward to seeing all

the potential that grows out of this.

We are seek go create We've got new episodes on youtube and all

the podcast platforms every monday until next time Continue being

all that you were created to be