**** Producer's Note: The following is a general transcript of LCC Connect's weekly radio program. Contents include but may not be limited to podcasts, program imaging, announcements, and PSAs. More detailed and accurate transcripts of the podcast episodes featured in this broadcast can be found at LCCconnect.com or by following the links provided in the show notes of this episode. ****

Welcome to B2B boots to books, the show where we explore the journeys of veterans and military connected students as they navigate their paths from service to the classroom and beyond. I'm Dustin Abrego.

And I'm Rebecca Allen, your hosts. Each week we'll dive into powerful stories of resilience, determination and success.

Whether you're a veteran yourself, a military family member, or simply inspired by the strength of those who serve, you're in the right place.

Let's turn the page and start this incredible journey together.

Hello. Long time no talk. Welcome back to an episode of B2B. This week I am joined by Rebecca Allen and Rebecca will be the new co host with me of B2B. Rebecca, welcome.

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Talk to me about your role here for other people that don't know. Like, because you work at LCC with me. Right. We both work here together. What is that? Like, how long you been here? All that stuff.

So I am the VA coordinator and school certifying official.

Is that your actual title?

That is my actual title.

That's so long of a title.

Very long.

But I handle submitting all of the VA education benefits and making sure that everyone is getting paid and getting their classes paid for and things like that.

Okay. So when people do benefits and other things and they come to Lansing Community College, I help them navigate classes and what makes sense to make sure it lines up with the benefits. And then you're the, here's the paperwork, here's all the stuff. So that way people actually get housing stipends, Right. And then also tuition gets like accounted and paid for and stuff, right?

Yep. Housing stipends, book stipends, getting their tuition paid for.

Books are important. Yes. How long have you been here at LCC then?

As of right now, it's going to be three months next week, I think.

Okay.

So it's gone by fast.

Yeah. How have things been going for you here? Talk to us about where you came from and maybe like your professional and or educational. Because we actually overlapped at Central.

Yep.

We maybe met each other possibly in passing and we have a very good friend in common that we met. But talk to us about where you've been, how you ended up here at LCC and stuff.

Yeah. So I have been in Veteran Services for just about 10 years. I started at the Michigan Veterans Affairs Agency in their resource center. I was there for five years. Then I moved over to the National Guard Family Programs office. I was at that time it was called the Soldier and Family Readiness Support Person. So I Handled a lot of case management. I handled the deployment support. I was there for two years. Then I moved out to the VFW national home as their veteran navigator and peer support specialist and part time case manager. So handling a lot of different facets of veteran support out there for the families that are utilizing those programs. Went back to the Guard as the risk reduction coordinator for about a year and now I'm here.

That is quite a list of different positions. And yeah, I know some of those terms because we've talked obviously quite a bit when people hear these terms of like navigator support coordinator for people that don't use these benefits or don't know what actually that person, like what did you do within those.

Yeah, so it can be really difficult to understand resources that are available. So anyone that is using any kind of resources, whether you're going through Department of Health and Human Services or 211 or anything like that, it can be really difficult to navigate that. And then you have that added layer of the scarcity of veteran resources and the added complexity of the eligibility criteria. So understanding what you're eligible for, what you can access, how you can use that, especially when you are in moments of crisis, whether it's a housing crisis or a food crisis, employment, anything like that, having someone who can act as your case manager to help figure out what you can use and how best to use those resources to get you back. So that is essentially what I was doing in most of those roles.

So like social worker adjacent? Not really, because I know that that's completely different. Like you weren't doing the mental health aspect necessarily. You were connecting them maybe to people and stuff for that.

But. Yep.

Okay. And you had talked about your service sharing like what that was for you and.

Yeah, so I was in the Guard for seven years, Army National Guard. I was a human resource specialist for six years and a mental health specialist for one year. Spent most of my with the 46 MP command here in Lansing handling. It was kind of in country response things for disaster relief. So we would handle the command of units that would be responding to any kind of national disaster.

Like hurricane stuff like that.

Yeah, during the pandemic they actually led a lot of the vaccination clinics and a lot of the responses across the country. So my unit was spread out across the country. I was out by then. But getting to see that they were able to do the things that we had trained for for that whole time was pretty cool.

So obviously this is called Boots to books and we talk about education and stuff like where what is that like path for you of being in service? Like were you during college, after college, what did college versus that look like for you?

Yep. So I actually originally intended to go to the Air Force Academy and I had an injury and that ended up not working out for me. So I chose to go to Central Michigan and. I was studying geographic information systems with the thought that maybe someday I'll enlist and I'll go into Intel. And I did end up enlisting. While I was at Central. I walked into the ROTC office and met with the National Guard recruiter one day and just decided this is what I'm going to do. Intel ended up not working out. Very few slots in the state at the time for that particular position. I enlisted, I left for boot camp. It was the second half of my junior year, came back, did ROTC for a while and ended up having some personal military related concerns. I lost a friend of mine who was adjacent to the military and it was one of those things where right now college isn't really important for me. So dropped out. Spent a couple of years just trying to figure out where I was in my life. And after spending a lot of time working with veterans and just being around my military and veteran friends, I realized I really want to get into mental health. So I reclassed to mental health specialists. So changed my job in the military and ended up going back to Central and getting my psychology degree.

How did that work? Have you written the rotc? Because again, civilian over here. Right. And again, this podcast should be for everyone, right. Of if you're in the rotc, like that's you saying, hey, I'm gonna do be in the Guard or something after I graduate, correct?

Yes, if you contract. So I was considered a non contracted cadet.

Interesting.

Okay, so I did not have the responsibilities of an ROTC cadet. So I didn't. When I graduated, I wasn't going to commission or anything like that. I was just in it for the experience, not for the promotion.

So if you were to contract, they would pay for schooling then? Is that okay? I was like, I was like, what's, what's the benefit to it that like I don't.

Okay, yeah. So contracting you get some of the education benefits and then once you complete your degree and you graduate, you then commission into your branch and component of choice.

Gotcha. Okay.

So instead I stayed enlisted instead of going to be an officer.

Gotcha. Okay, cool. So coming here to LCC and figuring out like what that meant for you with the experience you have and how do you feel like the crossover of what you used to do versus what you do now. What does that look like?

So I have done case management for 10 years.

Sounds heavy, even the way you explain it.

It is. And much of that I was. It was. If I wasn't doing it directly for my job, I was also working in nonprofits or volunteering in suicide prevention as well. So there was a lot of crossover there. And it gets to be very heavy. It can really weigh on you. And I was starting to feel the burnout. And my husband saw the position posted and suggested, hey, you want to stay in veteran services, but let's maybe look at something outside of really heavy, like crisis management and case management. And it just felt like the right move to make because I'm still getting to support veterans and getting to support military families, but it's also not as mentally taxing.

Sure, yeah.

I get to work with students now who are looking optimistically at their future. They have a path ahead of them. And it's really nice to be able to see that.

Before you started here, because that's relatively maybe fresh in your mind, what did you think it was going to be like here or in this role? Like, what you do? Because I know that you were in the ROTC and you went to a university and you've been, you know, in those things, but, like, seeing the other side of it, like working at the school but still engaging with military. Like, did you have any preconceived notions of maybe how you thought it would be? Of, like, all these people are just paper pushers and like, that's what that is. Which, like, we're here now, like, whatever.

But not really. I kind of expected that it was going to be more administrative based.

Okay.

I mean, it's, you know, it's sending paperwork to the va, so there's always a heavy level of administration there. But I wasn't really expecting anything in particular. I thought that it was going to be a nice change of pace, seeing what it's like working on the higher education side. And it has been. I'm learning a lot about how to navigate a side of VA benefits that I was never really using. I didn't use my VA benefits until much later. And it's different using them at a community college than it is at a university and understanding the different level of support that community college students require versus university students.

What would you say that that is? Because I would agree with you. I think in the range of students that maybe I interact with, of even just like reading and math levels and stuff. And not like numbers and things, but the ability to comprehend. And like I'm a first gen college student. Right. So I don't expect people to just know how it works. But I would definitely agree with you. But what do you think that looks like for you, the way you explain that?

So the students that I'm working with, they're either dependents of veterans and so they're usually younger students or they are spouses or veterans themselves and so they're a little bit older. It could be the second or third time that they've decided to go to school. Could be that they had a full career and now they're choosing to go to school and just seeing that there is a different level of support that is needed. Because most of our students have jobs, they don't have to live in dorms. So they have to figure out their housing situation. With it being a commuter college, they have to figure out how to balance life a little bit more than we did when we were in university.

What was your farthest walk when you were on campus.

Across campus?

Maybe like 10 minutes if you're really booking it. Right.

I lived in north campus for a little while and then I had classes towards the south end of campus and.

Like in Finch, probably. Right?

Yeah. Maybe 10 minutes. Yeah, I had a bike, so it was usually faster.

Yeah. So we know that that distance, I mean, when we were in it, we're like, oh, man, across campus. But when we talk to the students, like I literally have to Google map stuff all the time when a student. And I'm verifying date of birth and address of who they are, making sure who I'm on the phone with is the actual student. And I don't know the names of some of these places where they live in the state, which is totally fine.

Right.

I don't know all of them, but I'm like, wow, that's like 40 minutes one way. Right. How do we factor that in and how we. Like you're saying the support and stuff. So that can just be a lot overall, I think.

Yeah.

What do you think you've learned? That was maybe a surprising thing with working with. There's the preconceived notions. You said like, oh, I need different level support. What do you think it was like, wow, really? That's just how it works.

The way that I think our team works together actually.

Oh, very poorly. Okay, got it.

All right.

No having dedicated staff for military connected students. So at Central we had the Veteran Resource center, but I never interacted with them. So I never really saw what kind of support might be available. But knowing that we have two dedicated people that handle the benefits and making sure that our students are getting their questions answered and knowing that we have a dedicated academic advisor, we have a dedicated admissions advisor, we have a counselor who is very familiar with military connected students and is able to provide that level of additional support to just having that team and knowing that I can reach out to you and hey, I have this question about what class this student is taking and making sure that they're using their benefits to the best possible way and having a whole team that I can feel comfortable reaching out to is really nice.

I think that the. And I don't know if this is like the proper way to relate this because I need to ask more students about this. I would probably view it in the way that for those that don't maybe get that right. Because I didn't serve and I don't know what that would mean, but the possible level of relaxation when a student comes in and they don't have to go, there's this stuff. Right. And they don't know how. And there's preconceived notions that work in education. So it's more of like people take it in a political way sometimes. And I'm like, I'm just here to help. Right. But I probably like similar metaphor of the first language that like, how can I help you now that I like, we're over that hump. You don't have to like this for me to be on board. Like, I'm already on board. And I think having those services, like, would you agree it's kind of like that or your experience.

Yeah. And that's one thing that I noticed when I was working in case management is I had a lot of veterans that were seeking assistance that thought that they had to explain everything because they just assumed that whoever they're working with doesn't understand what their service was like or possibly what they're going through now. And the level of stigma that can come along with being a veteran and trying to ask for help. And I've seen that even now, working with some of our veteran students, like, I don't want to ask how to fix this. I'm just going to try and figure out how to fix it on my own. That's what we're here for. We're here to help you figure out how to get your class schedule fixed, how to make sure that you are actually using your benefits and you don't have to take 45 minutes to try and explain why you're struggling with the idea of just asking for the help. Because with Andrew and I both being veterans and the rest of the team being well versed in veteran services, you don't have to explain it. We're just. We're here because we get it and we're happy to help.

And I think we'll all listen if that's what they want. Also, we want to talk about that. Like, sure.

For sure.

Right. But you don't need to convince us. Yeah, we're already on board.

Yep.

What do you think are things that you would like to see? And I'm going to tell Andrew this and be like, hey, this is the critique Rebecca's provided. Where do you see are things that maybe you're excited about trying or, like, support that you think those students would.

Get a lot out of?

Like, I have my own ideas. Right. But I also haven't served. That's why I try to bounce things off of you and Andrew of different ideas. What do you think would be either supports or like, I know we've talked, like, fun things. Right. Or other things? You're like, I'd really like it if it was just like, turnkey, waiver wand like this.

Yeah. I would really like to see more social events. I'd like to see if we can get our student veterans a little more engaged with each other. And I know that that's difficult because, again, commuter school. So it's not like we're all centered in one area. And the majority of our students have families and jobs outside of school that they have to try to balance as well. But being able to encourage that camaraderie, again, because that is one thing from a mental health aspect, is having that connection with people that understand. You know, it doesn't matter if I didn't serve in the same branch or at the same time frame or have the same deployment experiences. I still have the military experience, and I still understand what you're going through and what it's been like for you since getting out of service. Just being able to encourage that. I'd really, really like to be able to do more of that.

What would that look like when we talk about it? Because I know that there's again, civilian mindset of, like, there's the Veterans Day Parade, there's whatever that was. We had talked at some point this summer. There was like some. Was it vet fest? There's things like that. Is it that those are too, like, not intense? That's the wrong way to put It. But just too much. And like, students would prefer like a. This is a group of people I can chill with and we don't have to like, my identity first doesn't have to be a vet. Do you think that that's important to have that or, like, do we need to have like the, like, rah rah, the whole thing with it tied to it, and I don't. Does that make sense, what I'm getting at?

Yeah, it's hard to answer that because I think it's different for everyone.

For sure.

I know a lot of veterans that are very much like, I want my service recognized. I want the ticker tape parade. I want everyone to know. And then I know others who are like, yep, I served. That's part of my identity, but that's not my entire identity. So just being around individuals that are of the same mindset, like, let's just sit around, chat, have some coffee, play some video games, anything like that. I've had some veterans that are like, you know, I don't even need to sit and talk. I just want to be around other people who are going to understand that Sometimes I, I just need my space, but I don't want to be alone.

Yeah, that's good. That's really powerful. I like that. What would you say for veterans that are considering to come here? Obviously, we're. We work here. We've already been like, hey, come here, we got you. But for those that you've probably already talked to or those, you know, that's just like. I told you this like eight times. You can sign up for this and it would be free or like, health insurance stuff. Right? That we've. Because we've got the, the VSO person coming at some point soon. What do you want those people to know that are just like, hey, like, you could just do this stuff. And people are just like, I'm just.

It's not as difficult as we make things out to be, I think, as.

What do you mean by we when.

You say as veterans?

Okay, okay.

We tend to overthink things. We've been conditioned into a mindset that we have to know exactly what we're walking into, and we have to be prepared for what we're walking into. And coming from a university and being a completely unorganized civilian student. And then coming here and seeing just how easy it can be really, to get things done and get where you need to go with things like, yeah, you have to try and figure out class schedules and balancing things like that. But I feel like there's a lot more support here than I received when I was at a university. And just having the ability to go to the start zone or go to an advisor or just come into to our office over in Huron and just, hey, I am trying to figure out this, this and this. And having people that are going to be willing to help walk you through that. And if they're not the people that can walk you through that, they're going to be able to find the people that can walk you through that. You're not going to be directed to a thousand different places.

What are the resistance arguments that you hear when you tell those people? Because I have my own interactions. Right. But I'm sure that you have dozens of contacts of people that are just like, yeah, man, not this time. Yeah, I'm not like, I didn't say they're good, but like, oh, this, it's raining today or something.

You know what I mean? There is hesitancy, especially for veterans who have had careers, whether they're civilian careers or military careers. They tend to be mid to late 30s plus and they think, well, what's the point of going back to school or going to school for the first time? I've been able to, to get where I need to go so far. That's been a lot of the push that I've been hearing, especially like going to guard functions and talking with anyone who is a senior NCO or higher. Like, I don't need to go to school. Look where I am in the military right now. Yeah, but you're going to want to retire at some point and you're going to need to figure out what civilian life is going to look like for you. And you may not need a four year degree, you may not need a master's, but at least going for those certifications or going for an associates to help get you where you envision yourself in the civilian world. Because they think that they're going to come out of the military having all of this experience and they're going to be able to go into a management position or some kind of leadership position when they're just starting out in a civilian career.

And you're. The way you're framing this, that doesn't happen.

It doesn't always happen.

And we're not knocking those things. Right. It's more of, you know, firsthand that, that's not.

Yeah, it's, I mean, for example, my, my husband retired after 23 years of service and he's not getting into like senior leadership positions in the civilian world. You know, even though he was in multiple leadership positions and he has a lot of experience, it's just not always the case.

That sucks.

It really does.

That would be, that would hurt a lot being like, yeah, Dustin, you got this master's in education. But like, no, well, and it's not even a M.A.

So it's, it's the, it is a governmentally recognized equivalent of. But it's not something that's necessarily recognized in corporate settings or things like that. So unless you're getting into like a veteran owned company.

Is there a stigma? Is that it, Is it the way that it translates and it's antiquated. And I'm not asking you to like solve everything nationally. I just, I don't know how that shows up. I know if people don't meet requirements because I've been on interview committees and stuff and it's like, oh, well, they don't have this item.

But I think, I think antiquated is a good way to put it. I think there are a lot of companies or organizations that aren't really considering exactly what kind of training goes into things. But I think when we're in the military, we're also kind of hyped up with, look at all this, this great training that you're getting. And so we get out thinking that we have more to offer then we really do. And that's, that's not the best way to put it, I guess. But we, we think that we're higher qualified than we really are. We have the experience. Yes. But we don't necessarily have the qualifications on paper in the way that companies.

Are looking for or able to explain it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Crap. I feel like we're developing a workshop that means you need to put on of like how to make your JST into a resume.

I have already built that.

Okay, so we're going to talk after this. Okay.

Okay.

So to wrap up here though, what do you want to leave us with? What are things? I mean, obviously we're going to be doing this in the future. Co hosting and stuff. What are some things you're excited for about the future, whether it be work related or not?

I'm just excited to see what else is in store. Working with student veterans and military connected veterans because again, this is, this is a whole new population of military connected families that I'm working with and I'm excited to see them prosper.

That's great. Awesome. Well, thanks for joining us. We'll be here again here soon, so thanks.

Awesome. Thank you.

Thanks. You've been listening to B2B boots to books.

Thank you for joining us on this journey through the inspiring stories of veterans and military connected students.

If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with your community.

We'd love to hear from you. So connect with us on social media or take a listen to previous episodes@lccconnect.com or your favorite streaming platform.

Remember, every story is is a step.

Forward and together we can build a bridge from Boots to books.

Until next time, stay strong and keep moving forward.

Sharing the Voices of Lansing Community College Visit us at LCC Connect.

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Lansing Community College's dual enrollment program offers the opportunity for qualified high school students to earn college credit while working towards their high school diploma. Dual enrollment lets students receive educational advancement in areas where the student's interest is displayed, especially in courses and academic areas not available in the student's high school. To find out more information about dual enrollment, visit LCC.edu.

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As I.

Went through school, one giant question loomed over me. What did I want to be? But in order to know what I wanted to be, I had to first decide what I wanted to make. I wanted to make more. So I became a teacher.

Now I make learning a privilege, not.

A choreography and frustration a tool, not an obstacle.

I make working hard seem easy and giving up impossible. I make an old subject feel like a fresh thought and unconventional methods common. I make material things less important and.

Little things like patience and kindness count.

I make weekdays more exciting than weekends and classrooms feel like anything. I make things different, which is all.

I ever hoped for.

I'm a teacher.

I make more.

Find out how you can make more@teach.org.

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The Adult Enrichment Program at LCC offers classes in watercolor, creative welding, motorcycle safety, photography, and more. All classes are non credit. Information about the Adult Enrichment Program is available at LCC.edu keeplearning. LCC Connect Voices vibes Vision.

Welcome to a Psycho Delicious conversation on mental health issues and trends from two local mental health professionals in the Greater Lansing area. I'm Michael Stratton, lmsw.

And I'm Morgan Bowen, dnp, pmhnp. And we're here to provide you with a deep dive into the human experience of consciousness and beyond. Our aim is to be educational and entertaining. So just kick back and open your ears and your minds.

Hey, I'm Michael Stratton. Mike Stratton.

And I'm Morgan Bowen. Just. Just Morgan.

Deciding whether you're Michael or Mike?

Well, this has been a lifelong thing. People call me Michael Moore.

I was talking about this with a client.

Do you have a preference?

It's an identity thing. I like either one. But it's interesting that, like, if I publish something, I go under Michael. And some people call me Michael. My old college buddies do. Sometimes my wife does, but most people call me Mike.

Yeah, I get that.

I got, like, when you're asking a client their name and they have a name like Michael and you say, oh, do you go by Mike? And they say, oh, whatever. How do you manage that? I always waffle.

What do you prefer?

It's usually what I say, but, yeah, sometimes I'll be like, what are your friends?

Nobody calls you Morgue.

My grandmother. I just had this conversation with a client. I had a boss who called me Mo Bo because my last name is Bowen, so.

Oh, geez.

And yeah, there's. It rhymes with favorite person. And then for a while, I had more Gogo. That was a nickname back more in my. My fast.

And I still have people that know me as Day rather than Dalian.

I like that day. Morris Day.

Yeah. I was never a fan of it.

Yeah, well. Well, there's that. We'll be sure. Sometimes you get a nickname that you don't like, and that's. That's not good either.

But my grandmother called me Morgi, and some family members would call me Morgie, but that's more of like a kind of a kid name, you know?

Look at that.

Right off the bat, I got you guys derailed.

Hey, I've got. I've got news about the show.

What is it?

Well, I did something unusual and I looked at our email and. Or I just looked at our podcast.

Do we have an email?

I think on Apple or Spotify or something like that. Well, we do have an email.

You guys have the world's longest email.

I know, it's true. I just assume nobody would ever email this email.

Well, here's the thing.

Someone.

It was either on Apple or Spotify, and it was like, how can I submit a question? Oh, this was in January. Oh, so somebody was listening and wanted to submit a question. Well, thank you.

To that person.

Yeah. So I'm going to suggest we haven't done it yet. But I will declare it. I'm going to declare it here. We are going to make a Facebook page and people will be able to engage with us on the Facebook page. It's going to be a psycho delicious Facebook page.

And I will say that if they look in the show notes, your email is in there. So they can always click that. But we'll have the Facebook page in there too.

We will, we will do that.

Well, that's exciting.

That's.

Thank you to the person that emailed us.

Yeah, thank you so much.

Emailed you back.

And we did have.

What was the question?

Well, they didn't say. They just.

Oh, they just know how to get it.

By now it'll be like. So what was your question? Well, in January I had a question, but now I don't know. Anyway.

Wow. Okay.

But you have a topic that you wanted.

Oh, yeah. Well, we, you know, we, we come up with topics together. But this week I thought we would talk about stress.

Good idea.

It's a general topic, but one very informed in the salient. Important to the mental health world.

Yeah.

And I think one that none of us escape.

Well, I think we're going to talk.

About what is stress. What does that mean?

You have to have stress? I mean, there's no way to get through life without stress.

Well, how would you define stress?

I think of stress as. Tension. Tension. Well, that's a kind of stress. But tension. And it could be good tension or bad tension. So when you're working out, you put yourself in stressful positions in order to get a gain. You go to work, you feel a level of stress, but you're doing it to get something out of it. There's stress that you can endure and that's okay. Or that you have a sense of like, this is going to lead me. Like yesterday I did yoga. And what I always say is people ask me, do you like doing yoga? I say, I like having done yoga. But while I'm doing it, I don't particularly enjoy it.

So it's a stress management technique. I mean, a lot of people use it as a stress management technique.

Exactly.

Which we'll talk about, I think in our next podcast about stress management techniques or avenues to stress management.

But I don't think there's a way to get through life without stress because your interaction with the environment is going to be going to have stress.

I think there's some scientific, I'm thinking physics. When you put a stress on a system, it's something that introduces a contrary Energy. I took physics years ago. I really didn't like it. I didn't do well in it. But something about it is counteractive. It's acting against what the system is trying to. Trying to produce.

Is it a way of testing the system or seeing what the system will endure?

Or is it, well, like friction? So a body in motion stays in motion unless acted upon by another force. So friction is the stress that stops the motion of whatever the object is.

Stress refers to the internal force per unit area within a material that develops in response to an external force, causing deformation.

And that's the physics.

So that's definition.

But if you did regular.

I was there for the first, I think six words.

But that was one of my most favorite science classes.

Yeah. So in psychology, they. They call it the body's response to pressure of some kind of pressure. So the pressure, if you are exercising, you're applying pressure to yourself in one way or the other, whether you're running, you're swimming, your yoga, your weights, whatever you're doing, there's some kind of pressure. And we put ourselves in pressure positions. Was it stressful to come here today and do this?

I was looking forward to it, actually. I mean, the stress is, for me, being busy and trying to fit everything in. So I knew, you know, I have a deadline. Well, at least an expectation to be at a place at a certain time. So if I feel like I'm running late or I gotta get all this stuff done, then I start to hustle. And today it's kind of warm, so I was sweating a little bit, and I felt like I was going to be here on time, though, so I wasn't too stressed.

But what's.

What's the difference between now and the first time you did this?

Oh, the first time, I had never done it before, and I was very anxious. I was definitely. You know, the relationship between anxiety and stress is one thing that I talk about a lot with a lot of crossover.

Yeah.

And. And so, as I've shared, I struggle with anxiety, lifelong struggle. So I just had an anxiety because I'd never done it before. I don't like necessarily hearing my voice and recorded things. So I was stressed that it was going to be bad, but maybe I was anxious thinking that maybe this wasn't going to work.

But, yeah, once you realize that it's bad, it's okay.

You can just roll with it.

Like, then I realized nobody listens.

It's not going to get worse. This is as bad as it.

So is it stressful? You know, when I. What I think of stress in my own life is really what I was talking. When I have so many things going on and how am I going to get all this stuff done? And I feel this just extreme sense that I just don't know if I can do this and. Do I have it in me to do all this? That is so stressful for me.

That's stress for me.

Our third voice also is our producer, Dadalyn Lowry, who's here. And as I said last time, a listener asked us to always introduce Dadalion so they know who the third voice in the room is. So go ahead. You were just saying something about.

No, I would say most of the time, feeling overwhelmed is where I get most of my stress. I did actually have a little bit of stress prior to coming here because as we were talking about when we're recording this today, we did an award show here at the college, and I was the announcer, and that always creates a little stress at first. And then there's this point where I kind of ease into everything because it's something I've just done for a while.

Yeah.

And I thought it was interesting that you said that you felt stressed. I didn't notice you felt stressed the very first time you recorded. But it's also something that I always have to keep in mind when people come in here, because to me, this is just a thing I do, so I don't think of it that way. And then I forget that people get a little overwhelmed by having a microphone in front of them.

Oh, my God.

And hearing their own voice through their headphones.

The first time I was on the air, it was terrifying. The very first time.

What about you?

I got used to it.

So would you call that a stressful moment?

That was definitely a stressful moment, but it was also a moment that I was looking for, for and asking for. So there was that. I mean, there's stress that you seek out that, you know, this is going to be hard, but I want what's on the other side of the stress. It's not that I'm wanting the stress necessarily, but you want what's associated with the stress, the reward of it, so to speak.

And definitely I can say that ceremony was something that I look forward to doing every year. And I have a fun time doing it, but at first I'm a little stressed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. MC in a jazz festival. Same thing.

You know, first time you get up on that stage.

Yeah, yeah.

And then you break into it, meeting.

Your heroes, you know, interviewing people that you're like, oh, my God, I can't. Oh, yeah, I'm going to interview Wynton Marsalis. What am I going to do? And the. Yeah, the.

What do you act like when you're stressed? There's some things that come out during stress.

Well, some people shut down. Some people. Well, it's. It's kind of like you do. Well, I don't know.

Irritable. People can get irritability and anger. You know, that was what was coming to my mind with me when I am stressed out.

That makes sense.

I am usually a cool cucumber, but if I'm stressed. So we were visiting Virginia, and here's a stress example, and I was traveling with my husband and my mom, and we were doing a family thing. We were there for family reasons. And we went to a hotel that we actually, my mother had booked, and it turned out to be kind of a dump hole, so I did not want to stay there. So we had been driving for eight hours. So I'm thinking, I'm going to have to talk to my mom. I don't want to stay here. And she was fine with it. But then we had to find another place. So now it's seven, eight at night. We're staying in the mountains of Virginia. We stayed in Airbnb. So then we're driving to this remote Airbnb space. And I'm driving and my husband is sitting next to me, and my mom's in the back, and everybody's trying to figure out where we're going. And I'm. I just am quiet, trying to, you know, like, look at the directions. My husband's changing the map. You know, zooming in. I'm like, oh, my gosh, do not touch the map. And my mom's like, it sounds like you're, you know, I think you need to take a deep breath more. And I'm like, oh. I am about to blow my top. And I did. I blew my top. And I felt terrible about it. The next day, I had to open.

You blew your top at your mom? Well, when she was giving you mom therapy.

Well, you know, it was kind of just the whole situation. It was like, you know, it was a straight. Like we could. You could feel the stress in the car. Everybody's tense. Where are we going? It's dark. Are we gonna get there? We gonna, you know, get. I don't know, murder?

Especially when you're in a familiar area.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So that was a time I did. And I said, I did not. Man. I The next day, said, did not handle that well. That was stressful for me and I did not handle it well.

I get like that. Like, I get kind of snippy and mean. I guess when I'm feeling stressed about mechanical things. I'm not gonna say that I'm not mechanically inclined. I do okay, but I'm not that, you know, I'm just not great. But I have had times where somebody is leaning over my shoulder trying to tell me what to do, and it's very frustrating for me and I get stressed about it and I know that and I get snippy.

Yeah. So there's specific events like these where you just do get. You're overwhelmed and there could be all kinds of other factors, like you're in a different place where you don't know. You triggered me. I flew into San Francisco when I had this thing going with the feds and they were flying me around the country to do trainings with therapists. And I went to San Francisco and the plane was late. My baggage wasn't on where it was supposed to be. I had to drive up to Vallejo. And this was before there were phones and maps like that. And I just looked at the map and I said, oh, it's on such and such a highway. North. That'll be easy. Well, when I got out and looked at the highways, they went east and west. They didn't go north.

Oh, wow.

And I'm like, I hate that. And so, like, I didn't get there until really late. I had to get up early and go and do this training. And I just remember. I remember had the feeling. And I did self talk because I was just. And there were no phones. I couldn't call somebody up, you know, unless I used a payphone. And I did this self talk, like, okay, you knew when you took this gig, you knew there'd be times that it would be really, really hard. And this is it. It's really, really hard right now. And. And maybe this is as hard as it's going to get and you're going to get through this and yada, yada, yada. And it was okay after that. And it. And it did all work out. But that's one of those touchstones that I look at at times when you just have had it, you know. But I think it's interesting. Sometimes people blow out and sometimes people implode.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm more of an imploder than a. Then someone blows.

I think I'm an exploder.

I know you.

I think My husband is an importer. My husband is an imploder, though. We're an imploder and an exploder.

Taste that case for me, because I can't think of times where I don't.

But, yeah, it's been rare. It's rare for me to explode. And I. And I. And I hate to say it, but the person I'm going to explode on is. Is the person closest to me. Yeah. And it's just. Yeah, I don't. I won't do that with friends. I won't do that. Well, rarely, a couple times I've done it with friends, but it's. That's.

No, that makes sense.

Definitely.

I can say my experience has been the same where it's just whoever's closest to me, like, personally.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

Well, as a therapist, why is that, Mike? Tell us why we. Why we get most mad at the ones we love the most or we explode or I explode on those that I love the most.

Well, on the one hand, the number of hours of exposure that they have to you versus other things, you're more likely to go through. Through something with that person. The last time I really did that with Kathy, it was shortly after we moved and a dishwasher was arriving and there was a snowstorm and we had to shovel and. I'd had surgery. On my waist. And anyway, they said don't. What was it?

Don't lift any tummy tuck?

No, it wasn't a tummy tuck.

It was.

I'm blocking on the name. It's the thing where you, you know when appendectomy part of your stomach comes outside?

Oh, a hernia.

A hernia. Hernia surgery. That's it. Yeah. So I was not supposed to lift anything over 10 pounds and something arrived that was like probably 100 pounds. And I was trying to move that out of the way of the room. And you're not supposed to do that. And I wasn't supposed to do that. And she was critical of me saying, don't put it there. And I was just like, that did it. That did it.

I was already.

Mainly, I was about to kill myself for the rest of my life just by moving this thing in the first place. And then she's saying, don't put it there, put it there.

Do you think if she had said it a different way, you might not have?

Of course. I mean, serious question.

I mean, it's not all on her. Of course it's on you that you blew up. But it's always that thing where I know if I say something to somebody a certain way, I could say it completely different and they're fine.

Well, the way she could have handled. God, I hope she never listens to it. She could have said, honey, you're not supposed to touch that. Let me help you. If she had said something like that, it would have been very, very different.

But instead, this is a familiar conversation, Mike. That's what I'm saying.

Well, I was thinking a lot of times people identify others as their source of stress. So I think when I speak with clients, and I'm thinking you as a therapist, frequently, the spouse. My life would be great if I didn't hear it all the time from my spouse.

Well, they become a person. Well, they're the person nearby that you project stuff onto. On the one hand, there's that. The other thing is, I do think that people have a basic predisposition that some people are more. Like. The stress is more likely to go outside versus to collapse inside. And some of that is probably genetically based. You know, my dad was very. Well, it's interesting. My dad was very depressed. He was a very internal guy. My mom was an exploder. My mom was someone who could get loud and scream and slam doors and be dramatic and all that kind of stuff. And it was like, oh, I'm not going to be like that. You know, So I don't know.

Well, so when I'm meeting with clients, one of the. Especially in an initial evaluation, one of the things that I think about or maybe talk about overtly is what are the stressors in your life? Which is a question you tell me about the stressful things in your life. And I would say finances are top or up there. Majorly. Job. Yeah, job. A lot of times, job.

Certain relationships in the family system can be very, very stressful.

I see students. So a lot of times with the students, it's usually class, you know, all the things that they have to do for class. And I will say also, and we're going to, of course, talk about stress management, but stress management is part of the maturation process or part of the developmental process. And that really comes about when you see, you know, how children manage stress, which is very interesting if you look at it that way. So if you're seeing, you know, a kid that's just flipping out, what's going on with that? How is. How are they, you know, emotional regulation, managing the disappointment if they didn't get something, or I guess something even worse, like they are concerned about, I don't know, safety of A parent. There's lots of things that can stress out kids.

It can be short term, it can be an event, or it could be a long term thing, you know, could be a kind of a toxic environment that a person.

Yeah, okay. Y.

And it's, and it's a good distinction between stress and trauma. Trauma is more likely to be more of a particular event that is kind of life threatening and unexpected. And stress is something that's like you're living with for a while. It could be that.

So there's a relationship for sure. And maybe in some ways, and I'm just spitballing, but trauma is an extreme life threat. It's a stressor on steroids. Yeah, it's a stressful event on steroids or stressful situation on steroids that just kind of pushes somebody into major overdrive.

Now, what was the most stressful moment of your life? Maybe not the most stressful moment, but let's talk about. Was there a most stressful time of your life?

Most stressful time for me, me, transition.

Periods, you know, like. Going through a divorce or new job, losing a job or leaving a job, being unemployed for a period of time. Different things like that. School, being at the end of school, like, what am I going to do with my life now? That was stressful.

Yeah, I would agree. Divorce, job altering situations.

Job.

Yeah, losing a job, that definitely is not a fun experience to go through. And it is stressful because then you got to come up with a whole new. Especially when it's unexpected. You got to come up with a whole new source of income. Figure out where you're going to go. How are you going to hold on while, like you said, you're unemployed?

I was really happy, go lucky through my twenties and at my end of my twenties and into my thirties. Well really at the end of my twenties it was, oh, I gotta figure, I gotta figure this out. I gotta figure out what I'm gonna do to take care of myself in the long term. You know, I didn't have health insurance. I didn't have really any benefits with the jobs that I was working. So I started thinking, oh boy, like I got, you know, I was, I always flew by the seat of my pants. I, you know, got out of jams by asking for help, asking my parents for money. And so. I guess my most stressful time was that time late 20s, when I really had, you know, push came to shove and what was I going to do? And I became a nurse. That was really what I did.

I'm passing notes to Mike While you're talking, I was curious because I never. I think I'd heard you talk about having kids, but I have a daughter. I don't have a kid. And I always thought going through that experience would lend itself to some stress.

Oh, my God. I was a very anxious father. And I remember I tell this kind of as a joke, but kind of not when they, you know, were letting us leave the hospital with our baby. It's like, aren't you going to send a nurse home with us?

What are we going to do?

What are we going to do? Yeah, I was very, very anxious as. Just like, how do we keep her alive? How do we. I mean, it was like ridiculously anxious. And then gradually, over time and experience, you start to get more relaxed or I got more relaxed with that mother.

Or necessity is the mother of invention. So when you're kind of pushed off that cliff, it's very, I can't do this. That sense of, I don't know if I can do this. I mean, it goes back to that overwhelm of, I just think, maybe I won't be able to do this. But then, as you're figuring it out, there's both the relief that, okay, maybe I can do this, but also the pride and the satisfaction that comes with it.

Overwhelm is part of it. Unpredictability is part of it, I think, and also lack of control. So one thing that drives me crazy currently is the news stress. It just seems like between tariffs and deportations and the, you know, the what's going on with the Supreme Court versus the presidency and all this kind of stuff, it's just like this stressed me out, but what can I do about any of it? And does it. You know, I think the degree to which someone feels powerless increases that stress as well, to some extent. So, yeah, that's depressing. That is depressing. Good thing we have solutions. Coming up in the next episode. I don't know, but are we ready?

I don't know. Are we? I mean, one of the things I was thinking about, because I know you're into dreams, is dreams that show you that you are stressed.

Oh, yeah.

One thing that you know, because I've had a reoccurring dream in the past, I haven't had this in a long time, but where I am driving into a ditch, and I always feel like that's just my life out of control.

That is. Yeah. Dreams are pictures of feelings. Basically, you're processing emotional states that you're experiencing in the daytime, but it's getting attached to this whatever imagery you've got going on. And you know when you fall asleep, your heart keeps beating, your lungs keep breathing, your stomach keeps digesting, your brain keeps working. And what your brain is trying to do is filter out the emotional material and trying to figure out where does this go? Is this short term or is this long term? And it gets mixed in with all this other imagery. So interesting. I had a stressful dream just the other day that my wife and I were about to be sent to a concentration camp.

Wow.

We were going to get into a train, it was going to leave on Friday or Saturday. And I looked at the list of names and oh, okay, we're not on Friday's list. Maybe it's Saturday, then maybe we have a chance to get away. And that was. I woke up with that and I was like, Jesus, yeah, what is going on? Yeah, so. A Psycho delicious conversation is meant for educational and entertainment purposes only. It is no substitute for therapy and should not be treated as such. If you feel a need for real therapy, you should consult your local provider, Google therapy, or therapists in your area. Check with community mental health or a suicide hotline if you are feeling suicidal.

Mike and Morgan welcome your questions, feedback or dilemmas. Feel free to send us an email at a psychodelicious conversation conversationmail.com that is a psychodelicious P S Y C H O D E L I C I o u s conversationmail.com the views expressed.

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