E25_Taking the WOO WOO out of mental health

[00:00:00] Hamish: Hi, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Mindful Builder Podcast. We are joined by Matt, as always, and our very good friend, Julie Mounter. How are you guys?

Today, we thought we'd talk about mindfulness. Uh, I know there is potentially

some sort of woo woo pseudoscience stigma around mindfulness, but, I think today we're going to wrap a little bit of, of science around how it actually works, and I know I practice mindfulness in my own life, and in my experience, mindfulness can actually look different from one person to the next.

So what I find, brings me back down and grounded might be different to what Matt, does and might be different to what Julie does. So I'm going to throw it over to Matt, uh, to Julie, sorry, not Matt.

[00:01:43] Matthew: I'm just gonna say fuck what I'm, I'm definitely not the expert in this.

[00:01:49] Hamish: the expert here. We are professionals by the way. Hey, uh, Julie, what's mindfulness?

[00:01:55] Julie: So what mindfulness is, is it's essentially just cultivating a [00:02:00] practice of awareness. So it's becoming aware of your thoughts and feelings from a distance rather than getting caught up in them. , and it's a really great way to help reduce stress, improve your concentration and enhance your emotion regulation, which um, slight, Sidebar here.

It's not about not having emotions, but it's about our ability to influence, So we can learn how to modify our responses to our emotions, or the emotions that we have. So if we give an example, let's say you get really angry about something if we don't have an ability to regulate our emotions.

our anger, what we might find is we might say something or do something that we might regret later. if we're able to regulate our emotion, what we might do is we might get angry, but then we can notice that, understand, and then make a choice about how we react to it rather than sort of stimulus and response. There's a bit of a gap in between. That's a bit of a side bar there.

[00:03:01] Matthew: So some people actually can't identify their emotions. Like, I'm quite an emotional person. So some people actually can't do that.

[00:03:08] Julie: yeah, absolutely. And that's often where we start when we're teaching mindfulness which is, helping people start to stop and notice what they're feeling. And sometimes we, we

spend quite a bit of time talking about, the language because often we're kind of Come without an ability to be able to describe what we're feeling because we don't have the language. We might just know happy and

sad, or happy, sad, mad, but that's all of the language that we have. So we'll spend time with people helping

them develop their language around their emotion. We often sit about like where you feel it in your body, those types of things. So say for example, if I key in with myself right now, I notice that there's a slight tension in my chest.

I get nervous when I do something like this, so I can feel a little bit of tension in my chest. When I then, I can feel my heart rate is a bit faster and my breathing is a bit faster. [00:04:00] So I can notice that and say, Oh, Julie, I noticed that I'm feeling anxious. And interestingly, as I noticed that, that sensation starts to decrease.

[00:04:09] Matthew: I was just thinking how calm you are. That's what I've, so that's like, I was like, you're so calm in the way you talk.

[00:04:15] Julie: I get that feedback a lot, I hide my nerves very well. I've been told. Yeah.

[00:04:19] Matthew: You've definitely, you've definitely hidden them very well. You've shocked, you've shocked, you've shocked me on that one there.

[00:04:25] Julie: Yeah.

[00:04:26] Matthew: this is all science, isn't it? It's all, this isn't, again, woo woo. Like, this is actually scientifically proven stuff.

[00:04:32] Julie: Yeah. Absolutely. So there's lots and lots of

studies on mindfulness, and there's some really cool stuff around what it does to your brain, especially if we look at, there's a fantastic course called mindfulness based stress reduction. MBSR. I highly recommend people look out for those really structured courses, and what the research has shown is that we have an increase in our gray matter, which is the part of our brain that does, memory, empathy, stress regulation, thinking. and, it also really importantly leads to a decrease in the activity of a brain. Part of your brain that's called the amygdala. And that's the part of your brain that's responsible for that fight or flight response, which is kind of what gets kicked into action when we've got stress or anxiety happening. they've been able to show, really good benefits with that.

[00:05:23] Hamish: how can we apply that in everyday life? I mean, you just said to us before, that you get quite nervous when you're doing this kind of stuff.

And as Matt said, you do look quite calm and I've known you for a long time. And you don't ever come across as me as someone who feels overwhelmed or anxious or anything like that. So well done to you. But how can we incorporate, uh, mindfulness into, into our daily routine so we can show up as calm and collected as you?

[00:05:51] Julie: Yeah, there's lots of ways that you can actually practice mindfulness. , one really great way is to start with, breathing exercises. [00:06:00] We quite simply just focus on your breath and observe it without trying to change it. So noticing your breath going in and out. Another fun one is mindful eating.

And so what we can do there is often that's a really good example of a mindless activity for many people who are sort of shoveling the food in. But if you stop and notice the taste, The texture, the sensation of what's actually happening in your mouth, what all of those things do when we're noticing those sensations and coming back to our body, we tend to get out of our, our mind in terms of racing thoughts, difficult thoughts, and we come back to this more grounded state, everyday activities like washing the dishes, can be mindfulness practices.

So it's not high tech at all. It's literally keying in with, and we're going to do an exercise right at the end, one of my favorites. but noticing what's happening for your body. So I don't know if the two of you just stop for a second now and just take a couple of deep breaths. It's noticing your breath coming in and out through now.

And just notice if you can feel any sensations in your body, your chest, your tummy. Shoulders or your neck.

[00:07:16] Matthew: I'm feeling super, super relaxed.

[00:07:17] Julie: You're feeling super

[00:07:19] Matthew: actually, like, I feel like I need, like, today, I think we'll just speak before we jump to, like, I've just been in front of my computer all day. And just being go, go, go. And then that was like the first two seconds I've, I've had today. You've just been like, huh. And you can feel like weight off your shoulder.

[00:07:34] Julie: mm. that's a really great example because you're able to key in with what's actually happening for your body. Yeah. So you're able to stop and notice what's going on for you. So in essence, a lot of people think that, mindfulness kind of involves sitting there meditating, you know, with humming and with your legs crossed.

And it's, it's literally, I mean, I'm not the type of person who can do that. That's not my, my mind races quite a bit. And so [00:08:00] mindfulness is literally noticing what's happening for you. So sometimes people talk about a good analogy is it's the difference of Between being in the traffic, the traffic being, these thoughts racing through your mind and stepping off to the side of the road and watching the traffic go past.

So watching your thoughts go past, watching your

[00:08:18] Matthew: switching your brain off. It's not

[00:08:20] Julie: Absolutely not. Yeah. Fantastic question. And this is often where people think, Oh, you know, bugger this. I can't do any of this mindfulness or meditation. I'm never going to be able to switch my brain off. And it's literally the last thing that we want to do.

We don't want to stop your thinking. It's being able to step back and observe your thinking and notice these thoughts come and go. ,

[00:08:40] Hamish: can mindfulness be anything?

[00:08:42] Julie: Yeah. Just about, are you thinking of something in particular?

[00:08:45] Hamish: things, I'm thinking of two things and I, and I think about some things where I, I can kind of get into what, we call like a flow state or something like that. And. I know gardening for me does it, but also exercise or working out does it for me. Would you consider those two things as mindful activities?

[00:09:05] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. A lot of the, mindfulness that we do. So we do some walking mindfulness, but things where, so let's say if we take the example of, exercise, what you can be doing there is noticing what your body's doing, noticing what you're breathing is doing, actually keying in with your sensations.

So if I give you an example of mindful walking, quite literally, you can notice the bend at your ankle, the knee, your knee moving. You can notice the strength in your muscles. You can feel key in with the wind against your face. You can notice the sensation of the sun on your skin. All of those things help ground us into our body and take us out of that racing mind.

[00:09:49] Matthew: So when I play video games, like PlayStation, I completely like, I'm fully relaxed, but I zone completely out. That's not mindfulness, then is it?

[00:09:57] Julie: good question. That wouldn't quite fit under mindfulness in that you're [00:10:00] being quite distracted and nothing wrong with playing video games. They're awesome. I play them myself. , but that tends to be more an external focus. So you're not so aware of what's happening for you and within you really great way to relax. Yeah.

[00:10:15] Matthew: Yeah, like, like, that's the thing, like, after what Hamish said, like, he, like, and when you talk about walking, you can feel the bending in your knee and all these other things, like, I know when I play video games, I literally couldn't tell you what the fuck is going on other than that video game. Like, don't even hear my phone go off.

[00:10:28] Julie: Yeah. So completely absorbed into, into something else. Yeah.

[00:10:32] Matthew: hundred, hundred percent. And I've always thought it's a form of relaxation and mindfulness, but now I think it's definitely, definitely not mindfulness.

[00:10:39] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. And just coming back to that point where you said, is it, is it about emptying your mind? , it's not about ignoring negative thoughts or emotions because when we actually try and go like, don't think of this particular thing, our brains don't work like that. So if I say, don't think of a, a purple giraffe, most likely a purple giraffe's going to pop up in your head, right?

It's, it's impossible to do. So we would then go, I'm noticing I'm thinking of a purple giraffe. Yeah. And that tends to take the power away from it. What do you like about the purple giraffe,

[00:11:12] Matthew: just can't literally get now a purple giraffe

[00:11:14] Julie: Yeah, correct. Yeah.

[00:11:16] Hamish: so, I mean, a misconception is that it's for, for, for Buddhists and all that kind of stuff. Like it, it's not a religious practice, is it? This is for everyone, right?

[00:11:24] Julie: Absolutely. So, it's a secular practice. It actually started, in the Buddhist meditation is probably where it first started, but now modern practices adapted to be non non secular and accessible to people of all backgrounds. So it's, it's more about mental training and awareness, which can benefit anyone regardless of their beliefs.

It doesn't matter what belief you bring it doesn't have a religious background to it.

[00:11:52] Hamish: So I just wanna circle back to something I was saying before about how, you know, can exercise be mindfulness? And, and I'm thinking that maybe say if I'm in [00:12:00] my gym at home, I guess that's probably not me being mindful. But, it's still sort of scratching an itch for me in terms of like managing the chemicals within my body.

But correct me if I'm wrong, to say I do Pilates every Monday, I'm doing it tonight. Now, if I'm on the Reformer, and I'm, a very good friend, Kaz, shout out to Kaz Diaz from Diaz Pilates. If I'm then focusing on like the movement of my body on the Reformer, would you say that that is more around mindful behavior?

[00:12:32] Julie: Yeah, absolutely. So you could be, if you start to focus your attention on what's actually happening for your body, and that's a great example because it's, it's literally quite difficult to be having difficult racing thoughts when you are engaged in such a physical activity, you know, you've got a leg going one way and I'm going another way and you've got to breathe in and breathe out at the right time, all, all of those things at once, that really does help ground you.

in your physical self rather than your mind sort of taking off into other areas. So if you wanted to really key into that Hamish you would be able to literally work your way through your body. Another thing that we talk about is a body scan. What's happening at my feet? What's happening at my ankles?

What's happening at my knees? Where are my hips doing? What can I feel? What sort of tension? So work your way through your body. Really great way to practice.

[00:13:20] Matthew: So I use the app for that,

[00:13:22] Julie: Brilliant app.

[00:13:23] Matthew: Yeah, like such good, especially when I'm trying to go to sleep, sometimes my mind's racing. And five, ten minutes of that and it just takes you through literally every bit. And your brain goes everywhere. But it is such a good way of just being like, switching off.

[00:13:36] Hamish: one of my favorite ways to finish off a Pilates class is to actually do that body scan. Cause you're, you know, you're lying on the ground and as you said, you're literally starting from the tip of your toe all the way to the top of your head. And you know, I don't think I've ever come home from one of those classes, regretting going or not, Loving the fact that I've actually got in tune with that side of me because I know for me personally My [00:14:00] brain is running at a million times an hour Every single moment of the day and it's just nice to let it have a rest every now and then what's interesting. I think you make this is we're talking like For me personally, and I'm going to make the assumption that everybody's different, right? Everyone gets recharged differently. For me, if I do like a five or ten minute body scan, that can bring me down enough. , I don't feel like I need to have like a two hour or a one hour, decompression session.

Maybe it would be good. I'm not too sure, but like, I know for me, for that five or ten minutes, I can concentrate and I always feel really energized afterwards.

[00:14:38] Matthew: Do you think it has a lot to do with our phones and technology being around us everywhere? That we just don't stop?

[00:14:43] Julie: Absolutely. Absolutely. I like. Being able to learn how to spend some time in yourself and in your body is, is really helpful. Can I just take you back to that, part there where you're talking about like how long do you sort of, feel better afterward? Another way to look at it is that. The more that we practice being able to regulate, being able to get into that mindful space, the easier it is to get back to it.

So say, for example, Because I use this practice all the time. Just when I start to breathe, my body is used to that going into that relaxing state or that mindful state. we associate as soon as I start breathing, I can feel my body relax and I do these morning and night.

, and if I have a particularly difficult session. I use it as a really important way to kind of gather myself, bring myself back into a grounded state so that I don't take anything of the last session into the next session with the next client. So I walk in in a very regulated manner.

more that you practice, the more quickly you're able to get back to that space. Yeah.

[00:15:50] Hamish: I've tried the Headspace stuff and I've tried those guided sort of meditations , and I really struggle with it I actually find that when I'm being more active around [00:16:00] it, you know, physically active around mindfulness, I find it easier.

, is there any science around which one is better than the other, like in your experience?

[00:16:11] Julie: I don't have any science around that, but the best one is the one that works for you. The best one is the one that's actually going to work. So sometimes I might teach somebody a mindfulness or a grounding exercise and they hate it. And for me, that's just fun because my job is to go off and find something that does work for them or help them find , the style that they really like.

So, for most people starting out, having something, guided is, is more helpful. So I think Hamish, you said that doing a body scan is really helpful for you. So somebody actually talking you through, yep. The body scan. Yeah, absolutely. Trying to do it. And I've been doing this for years now and I still use Guided now because it just, I find it really helpful and useful and I enjoy as soon as I hear the voice, I am literally starting to get into that zone.

, but yeah, it's different for everyone. , finding the voice that you like the best, the recording that you like, and that's a fun thing. There's a bunch of different ones that you can do.

[00:17:09] Hamish: I noticed, and again, again, talking about a personal experience, you know, there's been a couple of times over the last couple of years where I've been quite stressed just with various things going on. and talking through something with my psychologist, she said every morning, you obviously have a cup of coffee and I said, yep, she goes, right, tomorrow morning.

When you're having that cup of coffee, I want you to really key into your five senses. And it was a really amazing thing that for, you know, 30, 40 seconds, a minute, I just sat there with a cup of coffee in my hand and I felt how warm it was. I was looking at the steam rise off the top. , I was smelling it.

I was tasting it. And for those moments, like I was just I guess, engaged in what I would say is [00:18:00] mindfulness for me, and it just, it recharged me. , and you know, as I'm sitting here holding a cup of coffee in my hand, I'm thinking I really need to start doing that again because it really did work.

[00:18:08] Matthew: This actually leads into my question what you said there, Haym, of like, oh, I need to start doing that again. Like, how do you find time to do it, or how do you remember to do it? Because that's the common problem that I feel like I have.

[00:18:19] Hamish: Oh, are you asking me or asking the professional here?

[00:18:22] Matthew: both of you?

[00:18:24] Julie: How about we dive into one that we can all do? And it doesn't matter if, if somebody is actually, you can be driving for this one. You can be doing anything that you like. is a five senses one. So are you happy to have a crack now?

[00:18:37] Matthew: Let's go for

[00:18:38] Julie: Yeah, absolutely.

So first of all, I'm just going to get you to sit there and find five things that you can see. So just looking around in your environment. I'm going to talk mine out loud so that you can hear what I'm looking or doing. But for you, just looking around your room so I can see my light, I can see my computer. I can see some plants, I can see a printer, and I can see my texters. And the next thing we're going to do is four things that we can hear. So really key into the sounds that are around you, both near and far. Just stop and notice and name four things that you can hear. I can hear the traffic, I can hear my breathing, I can hear a hater clicking next to me, and I can hear my dog downstairs.

we want to take a big breath and three things that you can smell or remember the smell of. And often people say, Oh, you know, the room, I can't smell anything, but every room has a smell. And if you stop and notice the smells around you, you might notice your clothing, you might notice the smell of the [00:20:00] air.

The three things that you can smell. And if you're really struggling, thinking of something you remember the smell of. And we move to next sense, which is our taste. So two things that you can taste. So just stop and taste inside your mouth. I can taste that, dry mouth when we've been talking, that sense. And I can also taste, taste the kefir drink that I had not too long ago. But there'll be a taste in your mouth if you stop and notice.

Yep. And then the last thing is one thing that you can feel. So just grab anything close by. I'm grabbing my vest here. And feel it like you've never ever experienced it before in your life. Is it hard? Is it soft? What's the temperature? What's the texture? As if you were describing it to somebody who'd never come across it before.

And it's as simple as that. That's our five, five senses. So interested guys, what's that like for you?

[00:21:07] Hamish: do you know one of the things that I did find really interesting, Julie, as you were talking about, the smells,

[00:21:13] Julie: How's

[00:21:15] Hamish: that, remember the smell of. Like the thing that really makes me amazingly calm is the smell of the eucalyptus.

and the salt at our family beach house in Batemans Bay and it immediately took me there and I could actually physically feel myself becoming calmer. And I had a , coffee cup in my hand when we're talking about touch and I've always been drawn to handmade coffee cups because of the texture.

And, I'm a really tactile person and you know for that moment I was sitting there almost discovering that coffee cup for the first time. I started to see like little imperfections in it and I'm still doing it now, which I found really intriguing. Yeah. I mean, I've done this exercise a number of times before, but [00:22:00] even doing it now, it felt really special and calming.

So I don't know, Matt, I'm keen to hear experience too.

[00:22:08] Matthew: So I've done something similar a number of times , for me, it was just the fact, I don't know whether I just haven't stopped much today,

but it was the fact that like, I was like, Oh, this is nice.

[00:22:17] Julie: Mmm.

[00:22:18] Matthew: is actually just like five seconds to myself. I did struggle with the spell cause I was really trying to picture like cookies being cooked. And I was really struggling to get any smell in my room where I am at the moment. Smells like pollution from the cars going past.

[00:22:33] Julie: Mmm.

[00:22:34] Matthew: I don't know whether it was the fact that you're going through things or it was just the time that I stopped, the time I made to stop. So I don't know if that's just what it actually is.

[00:22:44] Julie: probably all of those things, Matt. But the time that you made to stop. So if I use an example of, it doesn't happen very often, but if I start to, especially at work, if I start to feel myself and my emotions starting , to rise, actually, let me give you a really

concrete example. If I've got somebody who's really, really angry in the room, let's say they're really getting angry.

Quite mad about something and I might start to feel myself, elevate slightly if I need to ground myself, I just quite naturally whilst I'm looking at them, five things I can see. Notice what I can hear. Notice what I can smell. Can with my taste. Find something that I can touch. And that brings me down into that much more regulated state because I've practiced it over and over and over again.

I do it when I'm driving. , it's a really easy one to drive. There's plenty to see, hear, smell, taste all around you. But the more often that you practice it, the more regularly you'll find that it's easier to get into that

state.

[00:23:42] Matthew: So I actually have a question around this, and I don't know if I'm going to word this correctly, mindfulness stuff sort of only for people that neurodiverse or might have some psycho, like psychological condition or mental health issues, or is it just, is it for anyone?

[00:23:56] Julie: Across the board, if you're a human person, [00:24:00] mindfulness is good for you.

[00:24:03] Matthew: But someone who might not have any of these conditions, I shouldn't call them conditions, like just, it's easy for me to just put them into one category. , will they find it harder to relax? generally, I know with anxiety, like, you're, you're up and you're going and it's like, and like, I, I can physically feel it.

Well, they find it sort of, cause not, not everyone might have that sort of feeling.

[00:24:22] Julie: that's a good point that you raised Matt. It's not necessarily

just about relaxing. So that can be a by product of, of What happens., What we tend to

find is that the more that we practice those types of things, that we start to become more able

to

, rather than be fused with our

emotions and fused with our sensations, we're able to step back from them

and kind of navigate our way through the world.

Sort of being less hooked by

by difficulties and stresses and those sorts of things. I think I'm mindful of it's not a pun But I'm mindful of answering different levels of cognition somebody struggles broadly with their thinking and their ability to make sense of difficult Concepts that might be a struggle.

So I would Probably slightly change my answer in that some Potentially not everybody would be able to, to do this sort of thing, but I can't really think of many people who wouldn't be able to notice the sunset, notice the leaves on the tree,

find some way of being able to get in touch with, with noticing things as opposed to being caught up with within their thinking.

Does that kind of answer the question? Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:36] Hamish: it acts like a nice circuit breaker.

[00:25:38] Matthew: Yeah. I like that.

[00:25:41] Julie: I before I started doing

mindful work, I had more difficulty with anxious thinking and difficulty sleeping and also have a chronic back condition. , I've had a couple of

back operations, so that's something that I work with every day and

the mindfulness based stress reduction course, is often [00:26:00] recommended for chronic

pain.

I've done a lot of, study around that as well. So I find that all across the board, I found it incredibly

helpful, doing mindfulness based activities for, for myself. Yeah. Just,

that's on my

[00:26:14] Matthew: to do it?

[00:26:15] Julie: So if we just broadly speaking, if we're trying to change habits, if we attach it to something else that already happens,

that is one of the easiest ways to incorporate something.

So say for example, after I have turned off my alarm, I will do some mindfulness. So that's a statement that I use. Or after I have finished my lunch, I will So I've attached it to a particular

activity. Most of us travel for work.

even if it is from one room to another, if you're working from home, but it can be in your commute

to work.

That's a

really helpful way to do it. and setting reminders is a good one too.

[00:26:58] Matthew: The one in the morning though, like, don't you just want to fall back asleep? Cause I feel like that would relax me so much that I'd be just

back out.

[00:27:04] Julie: that's Another interesting one. What you'd want to do is, is perhaps put yourself in a seated position. So you don't. Get to, yeah, yeah. But doing mostly, because that's a common one. Often people

will, um,

lie down flat and they'll find that they're actually falling asleep,

which is not necessarily a bad thing. But we're not actually going to be able to practice

the, the mindfulness.

[00:27:27] Hamish: might be a little bit off topic, but is having an ice bath mindfulness behavior?

[00:27:32] Julie: That is a great question that I would like to do some homework about. because I don't know a lot about that. part that I could answer is, good grief, it absolutely would get you into your body, wouldn't it? I mean, you've got all the sensations going on.

[00:27:45] Hamish: I know for me, like I love them. And, There is some studies data, not just anecdotal around it being great for anxiety and also, regulating ADHD behavior and in some cases autism as well. And I know for me, for [00:28:00] those two minutes, I am in my breath and I am focusing on every single part of my body.

And I Never regret

having an ice bath. Getting in there is a whole other fucking

story.

[00:28:13] Matthew: you're not, you're not getting me in

[00:28:14] Hamish: oh my god. Yeah, you know

what,

Matty? We are going to do it one day and we're going to record it. I am going to, record you going into an ice bath because it is the most amazing, incredible, and I'm not going to sit here saying that everyone should do It because, you know, everyone's their own person.

Um, I just

know for

[00:28:29] Matthew: I'll go in, I'll go into a 40 degree spa. I'll do

[00:28:31] Hamish: Why don't we do a hot cold? Let's do a hot cold

[00:28:34] Matthew: just reading here, a nice bath will have sort of positive effects on sort of like tolerance to stress and respiratory infections and cardiovascular system and insulin resistance. things like that. I can't find anything

on mental health just yet.

[00:28:48] Julie: I'll do some homework, see what I can

do.

so the other, other things that, if you want to do some Googling, so five senses is a really

simple one to start with, simple, Breathing exercises. So, just noticing breathing in and breathing out and noticing your breath as it's coming in and out.

And a body scan is another, great one to look up, which is basically just noticing the sensations, as you said, from tip to toe. , but we can put some links into some good recordings of those if you like.

[00:29:18] Hamish: You know what I find really awesome about, the 5th of August of 2024 is I, know that the topic that I guess that The heading of this, podcast is going to be taking the woo out of mindfulness.

[00:29:33] Matthew: Not purple draft

[00:29:34] Hamish: and I and I want, yeah, maybe Purple Giraffe,

but I guess that the point I'm trying to

make is that if we hadn't been talking about

mindfulness two years ago, it would

be

completely

different to right now.

I kind of feel like it is something that we're

all

aware of and something that we all want to practice more of. And regardless of whether it's science

backed,

I still

think

it's something that we should all

be doing more of

[00:29:58] Matthew: Even if there's no sort of science, that [00:30:00] there's nothing potentially neurological like neurologically, but if you feel you're doing better, like doesn't that just make sense to do

[00:30:05] Hamish: Yep.

[00:30:05] Matthew: They're

[00:30:06] Julie: Couldn't agree more. if people want to head off and practice them, the five senses are

really five things you can see, four things you can hear, three things you can smell, two things you can taste, and one thing you can feel.

when I'm teaching in the rooms, we, we point to our

eyes, point to our ears, point to our nose, point to our mouth, and then I point down to the ground.

And that's it. we

often do a physical

thing, but really simple. You can be walking around the

work site, and just, I don't know, go out and

do an

experiment, do it for

a week, and notice what

actually happens to you as you sort of navigating the way through the world.

[00:30:42] Hamish: Noise cancelling earphones don't necessarily lend itself well to trying to hear four or five things, FYI.

[00:30:50] Matthew: just good for cutting. They're good for cutting. everything else out though.

[00:30:55] Julie: Can you hear, can you hear yourself breathe

or can you, can you, listen to some of your own physicals?

[00:31:00] Hamish: yeah, when you said that I really tuned into that. So like swallowing and breathing were a couple that I kind of picked up on. Julie, thank you again. So much for coming on

[00:31:12] Julie: Pleasure. Sure

[00:31:14] Hamish: and chat and, you know, hopefully talk about some things that are going to help, uh, you know, our fellow tradespeople, navigate the worksite.

[00:31:22] Matthew: What's next? What's our next topic?

[00:31:24] Hamish: Boundaries.

[00:31:25] Julie: Boundaries. That's what you'd like to do next

[00:31:27] Hamish: Boundaries. I want to talk about creating boundaries.

[00:31:31] Julie: Well, we have some myths to debunk about

boundaries then that's for sure. I'll look forward to that. Sounds

great. You're

[00:31:37] Hamish: Let's do it.

[00:31:38] Matthew: Oh, I'm done. I'm

very happy about that one. Actually, Hamish and I, when, this morning, were like, Oh shit, what's

our episode on? And then we remembered, this is it. And we're like, Boundaries, that's an easy one.

[00:31:50] Hamish: I really think is an interesting thing to talk about is you don't actually have to run over your phone to create a boundary on the weekend. I've actually found that you can just turn it off.

[00:31:59] Julie: very impressed

[00:32:00] with your life

[00:32:00] Matthew: Are you still going

with that? Is it, are you still

[00:32:02] Hamish: Yeah. Yep. I know Julie, you tried to get on to me over the weekend and I had to go

[00:32:07] Julie: It was like old school. You get to turn up and surprise someone at their house that didn't even know you're coming. It's fantastic. I love

it.

[00:32:15] Hamish: thanks again Julie, Matt. It's always great to hang out.

[00:32:17] Matthew: See you guys.

Thank you.