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Fawn, appeasement, and intimacy were added
to the Polyvagal Theory's mixed states.

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But- is intimacy actually a mixed
state or is this something else?

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I want to challenge the way that
you think about the Polyvagal

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mix states in this episode.

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My name is Justin Sunseri.

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I am a therapist, a coach, and the creator
of the polyvagal trauma relief system.

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Welcome to stuck, not broken.

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Where I typically teach you how to
live with more calm, confidence and

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connection without the psychobabble.

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But in this episode, I'm going
to be delving into the polyvagal

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theory once again, and its new
additions in more depth though.

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Last episode, I pose the question
of behavioral adaptations

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versus mixed states in reference
specifically to fawn and appeasement.

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This time though, I have a new question
in reference to intimacy in particular.

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Does the context of
the mixed state matter?

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And is that a more helpful
framework for the polyvagal theory

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than just the mixed state itself?

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So the new book, our polyvagal world,
which comes out tomorrow, I believe.

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Link in the description
I do recommend buying it.

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I did an episode last week about, uh, or
it's a book review so give that a listen,

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but overall I do recommend buying it.

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When it comes to these new mix days, it
doesn't have a ton to say about them.

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Intimacy has I think a couple of
pages dedicated to it, I believe.

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It is listed as a mixed state and
you can probably guess what states

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underlie the mixed state of intimacy.

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Intimacy is being immobile, right.

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Or largely immobile.

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But without fear.

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And it involves being with someone.

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So there's trust and vulnerability,
physical touch, co-regulation.

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So, what does that sound like?

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Yeah, shutdown and
safety combined together.

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Now- the astute polyvagal Nerd
listeners will say, hold on a second.

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Wait a minute here.

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And I would say, do you
want a second or a minute?

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And he would say just, just hold your
horses really is what I'm trying to

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tell you, justin, hold your horses.

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You would say.

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That mixed states of shutdown and safety.

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That's already taken.

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That's called it stillness.

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And I would say, yeah, you're right.

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And I would say yes.

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You are right, astute
polyvagal nerd listener.

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Intimacy is basically stillness.

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But with somebody.

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Or with a safe, other.

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I think Porges has referred
to it as an interpersonal

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neuro-biological interaction.

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It's one of those.

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Co-regulation in particular
as an interpersonal

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neuro-biological interaction.

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I think that's what he called it.

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But yeah, it's already taken.

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We already know what that mix state is.

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It's stillness.

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So what's different.

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Why is this different?

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And obviously because it involves
co-regulation or involves being

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with a safe other, so there's a more
interesting question that comes up here.

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And that question is what happens
when we have a state or a mixed state.

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And it involves being with someone.

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For example, safety being under
safety state can be with somebody.

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Or you can be alone.

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It can be co-regulative
or self regulative.

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Let's look at it in a little more detail.

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Let's take the example of
safety state plus mobility.

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What does that equal?

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And you say, Justin already
know this it's play.

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Okay.

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Well, that's safety plus
mobility with somebody.

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But what does safety plus
mobility equal when you're alone?

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I would say it's exercise.

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That's not play anymore because there's
no, co-regulation you're by yourself.

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But your mobile.

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In safety.

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So.

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That would equal exercise now would
we call exercise a new mixed state.

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Kind of could, I mean, makes sense.

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Or would we say that.

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There is an element of
play when you're alone.

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I don't think so, because Porges is very
explicit that play is an interpersonal

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neuro-biological interaction,
which I believe are his words.

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So I don't think we would call play.

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Or I don't think we would say
that exercise is a form of play.

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It just might be the mixed
state of safety plus mobility.

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But in a different context.

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Or maybe it's a mixed state
of safety and mobility, plus

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whether or not someone is there.

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As another example, there's the one we
already went over, which is safety plus

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shutdown equals stillness, but when
you're with somebody, it equals intimacy.

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There's co-regulation involved.

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So the context changed, therefore
is it a new mixed state?

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Or is it the same mixed
state in a different context?

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One more example would be the safety
states plus mobility plus shutdown.

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So all three of those
active, what does that equal?

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Based on the last couple episodes
you would say, well, that, that

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Justin, that is appeasement.

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And I would say, is it though?

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Because appeasement is.

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Yeah, it's all those states active,
but in particular, It's with

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somebody else in a life-threatening
context that cannot be escaped.

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There's a captivity element to it.

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So all three of those being
active equals appeasement.

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Not necessarily.

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I mean, all those states are active.

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Like right now I'm in all of those states.

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I'm immobile, but I have
some level of mobility.

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And some level of safety.

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I'm not in appeasement.

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But if somebody was here and
I was a captive and they were

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threatening my life eventually.

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Yeah.

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That might turn into appeasement.

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So that's that.

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It's something that context
matters is what I'm saying here.

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So, so what would that equal if
we have all the states active?

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So safety plus mobility, plus shut down.

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What if we have all those states active.

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But in the context of
safety with somebody else.

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That might be physical intimacy.

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I'm trying, I'm trying to keep it.

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Very G-rated here.

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That might what we'll call
that physical intimacy.

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So is that now a mixed state?

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Or what if we have all the state's active,
but no, one's there and you're alone.

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Again, G rated.

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We might call that.

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Physical self gratification
when you're alone.

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That actually might be more PG.

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Cause I don't think that
would come up in a G rated.

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Film.

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But regardless.

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Um, are these all now mixed states or is
it a mixed state in a different context?

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I don't know.

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To me, it kind of seems like these
are all now their own mix states.

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So I can kind of speculate that we can
now add exercise as a Polyvagal mix state.

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Can we add a physical intimacy?

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Can't we add.

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Solo physical intimacy.

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Are those all mixed states now?

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Or do we have a situation where we
can, we can look at a context and

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then infer a mixed state that's
happening in the individual.

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So, instead of saying intimacy is
a mixed state, would we instead say

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that the person who's engaging in
intimate behaviors uh, closeness

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touch and co-regulation maybe that
they have a stillness mixed state.

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But it seems like the context matters
and that when we have a mixed state.

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Or maybe even a primary state.

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The context that is in is very important.

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I wish that this was gone over in a
little more depth in the new book, uh,

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sadly, uh, appeasement and fawn and
intimacy they're introduced in the new

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book and mostly are kind of glossed
over with some inferences to their

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underlying primary states or mixed state.

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But I think there's some much
more interesting questions

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that are, that are missed.

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Which are the context of the states,
which I just briefly discussed.

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And then also the potential of
a behavioral adaptation versus

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a state or mixed state, which I
talked about in the last episode.

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I would love to know what you think.

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Feel free to email me,
JustinLMFT@gmail.com.

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If you are in my Stucknaut collective.

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This is the theme of the week,
uh, intimacy in particular.

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But I'll also incorporate this question
of the context of the state in our

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daily growth hub discussion points.

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That's really it for this episode.

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Thank you so much for joining me.

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If you're enjoying what I have
here on stuck, not broken.

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I think you'll love what I have.

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in my Stucknaut collective.

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I really hope that this stuff
has been helpful for you on

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your trauma recovery journey.

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But I only take you so far here.

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If you're ready to get that
next step of really building the

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strength of your safety state.

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And eventually feeling into
your stuck defensive state.

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Then my total access membership
is probably a good fit for you.

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You get all my courses, Polyvagal
101 building safety anchors

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and  Unstucking Defensive States.

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Plus you get access to
my private community.

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Plus you get access to meeting with
me twice a month in open Q and a.

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Every day and the discussion
board and a whole bunch more

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stuff, including a second podcast.

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So if you're ready to take that next step,
head on over to JustinLMFT.com/totalaccess

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again, that is justinLMFT.com/totalaccess.

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Otherwise fellow stock not
thank you so much for listening.

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I do hope this episode has brought
you something new to think about

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a new wrinkle in your brain.

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Or deepen your understanding
of the polyvagal theory.

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Bye.