Fawn, appeasement, and intimacy were added to the Polyvagal Theory's mixed states.
But- is intimacy actually a mixed state or is this something else?
I want to challenge the way that you think about the Polyvagal
mix states in this episode.
My name is Justin Sunseri.
I am a therapist, a coach, and the creator of the polyvagal trauma relief system.
Welcome to stuck, not broken.
Where I typically teach you how to live with more calm, confidence and
connection without the psychobabble.
But in this episode, I'm going to be delving into the polyvagal
theory once again, and its new additions in more depth though.
Last episode, I pose the question of behavioral adaptations
versus mixed states in reference specifically to fawn and appeasement.
This time though, I have a new question in reference to intimacy in particular.
Does the context of the mixed state matter?
And is that a more helpful framework for the polyvagal theory
than just the mixed state itself?
So the new book, our polyvagal world, which comes out tomorrow, I believe.
Link in the description I do recommend buying it.
I did an episode last week about, uh, or it's a book review so give that a listen,
but overall I do recommend buying it.
When it comes to these new mix days, it doesn't have a ton to say about them.
Intimacy has I think a couple of pages dedicated to it, I believe.
It is listed as a mixed state and you can probably guess what states
underlie the mixed state of intimacy.
Intimacy is being immobile, right.
Or largely immobile.
But without fear.
And it involves being with someone.
So there's trust and vulnerability, physical touch, co-regulation.
So, what does that sound like?
Yeah, shutdown and safety combined together.
Now- the astute polyvagal Nerd listeners will say, hold on a second.
Wait a minute here.
And I would say, do you want a second or a minute?
And he would say just, just hold your horses really is what I'm trying to
tell you, justin, hold your horses.
You would say.
That mixed states of shutdown and safety.
That's already taken.
That's called it stillness.
And I would say, yeah, you're right.
And I would say yes.
You are right, astute polyvagal nerd listener.
Intimacy is basically stillness.
But with somebody.
Or with a safe, other.
I think Porges has referred to it as an interpersonal
neuro-biological interaction.
It's one of those.
Co-regulation in particular as an interpersonal
neuro-biological interaction.
I think that's what he called it.
But yeah, it's already taken.
We already know what that mix state is.
It's stillness.
So what's different.
Why is this different?
And obviously because it involves co-regulation or involves being
with a safe other, so there's a more interesting question that comes up here.
And that question is what happens when we have a state or a mixed state.
And it involves being with someone.
For example, safety being under safety state can be with somebody.
Or you can be alone.
It can be co-regulative or self regulative.
Let's look at it in a little more detail.
Let's take the example of safety state plus mobility.
What does that equal?
And you say, Justin already know this it's play.
Okay.
Well, that's safety plus mobility with somebody.
But what does safety plus mobility equal when you're alone?
I would say it's exercise.
That's not play anymore because there's no, co-regulation you're by yourself.
But your mobile.
In safety.
So.
That would equal exercise now would we call exercise a new mixed state.
Kind of could, I mean, makes sense.
Or would we say that.
There is an element of play when you're alone.
I don't think so, because Porges is very explicit that play is an interpersonal
neuro-biological interaction, which I believe are his words.
So I don't think we would call play.
Or I don't think we would say that exercise is a form of play.
It just might be the mixed state of safety plus mobility.
But in a different context.
Or maybe it's a mixed state of safety and mobility, plus
whether or not someone is there.
As another example, there's the one we already went over, which is safety plus
shutdown equals stillness, but when you're with somebody, it equals intimacy.
There's co-regulation involved.
So the context changed, therefore is it a new mixed state?
Or is it the same mixed state in a different context?
One more example would be the safety states plus mobility plus shutdown.
So all three of those active, what does that equal?
Based on the last couple episodes you would say, well, that, that
Justin, that is appeasement.
And I would say, is it though?
Because appeasement is.
Yeah, it's all those states active, but in particular, It's with
somebody else in a life-threatening context that cannot be escaped.
There's a captivity element to it.
So all three of those being active equals appeasement.
Not necessarily.
I mean, all those states are active.
Like right now I'm in all of those states.
I'm immobile, but I have some level of mobility.
And some level of safety.
I'm not in appeasement.
But if somebody was here and I was a captive and they were
threatening my life eventually.
Yeah.
That might turn into appeasement.
So that's that.
It's something that context matters is what I'm saying here.
So, so what would that equal if we have all the states active?
So safety plus mobility, plus shut down.
What if we have all those states active.
But in the context of safety with somebody else.
That might be physical intimacy.
I'm trying, I'm trying to keep it.
Very G-rated here.
That might what we'll call that physical intimacy.
So is that now a mixed state?
Or what if we have all the state's active, but no, one's there and you're alone.
Again, G rated.
We might call that.
Physical self gratification when you're alone.
That actually might be more PG.
Cause I don't think that would come up in a G rated.
Film.
But regardless.
Um, are these all now mixed states or is it a mixed state in a different context?
I don't know.
To me, it kind of seems like these are all now their own mix states.
So I can kind of speculate that we can now add exercise as a Polyvagal mix state.
Can we add a physical intimacy?
Can't we add.
Solo physical intimacy.
Are those all mixed states now?
Or do we have a situation where we can, we can look at a context and
then infer a mixed state that's happening in the individual.
So, instead of saying intimacy is a mixed state, would we instead say
that the person who's engaging in intimate behaviors uh, closeness
touch and co-regulation maybe that they have a stillness mixed state.
But it seems like the context matters and that when we have a mixed state.
Or maybe even a primary state.
The context that is in is very important.
I wish that this was gone over in a little more depth in the new book, uh,
sadly, uh, appeasement and fawn and intimacy they're introduced in the new
book and mostly are kind of glossed over with some inferences to their
underlying primary states or mixed state.
But I think there's some much more interesting questions
that are, that are missed.
Which are the context of the states, which I just briefly discussed.
And then also the potential of a behavioral adaptation versus
a state or mixed state, which I talked about in the last episode.
I would love to know what you think.
Feel free to email me, JustinLMFT@gmail.com.
If you are in my Stucknaut collective.
This is the theme of the week, uh, intimacy in particular.
But I'll also incorporate this question of the context of the state in our
daily growth hub discussion points.
That's really it for this episode.
Thank you so much for joining me.
If you're enjoying what I have here on stuck, not broken.
I think you'll love what I have.
in my Stucknaut collective.
I really hope that this stuff has been helpful for you on
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If you're ready to get that next step of really building the
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Otherwise fellow stock not thank you so much for listening.
I do hope this episode has brought you something new to think about
a new wrinkle in your brain.
Or deepen your understanding of the polyvagal theory.
Bye.