[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to How To Be Human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: In this episode, Anna and I discuss shame.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat, clear your mind, and let's chat.

Hello? Hello. Hi. Are you there?

[00:00:29] Nina Endrst: I feel like my body right before I have to do reading, basically anytime before I need to get, like, I need to be able to talk in a way that's like sort of important. I feel like my body's like, would you like to be super burpee for. And feel a little bit scared of what's going to happen.

It's like, yeah, thanks body. So that was part of why I was quiet up at the top here. I was like, oh,

this is all of you learning about me.

[00:01:00] Anna Toonk: I feel like it's one of those days. I just walked outside to come into my studio and I'm like, am I stoned? Like, I'm not, I haven't smoked weed in so long, but I feel so high

[00:01:11] Nina Endrst: today. I feel

[00:01:14] Anna Toonk: the sky must dusty. I don't know. It's just what is going on. I.

[00:01:21] Nina Endrst: Phew. Like maybe it's Monday, maybe it's like, you can't fight that corporate conditioning, no matter how hard you try.

I felt a little less stone today than I had from just like holidays stuff. And it's been really dreary, like really gray, but like, oh fuck it. That it just feels right. Since it gets dark late. Anyway, that today, I don't know why I'm so horny for snow. I want snow so bad because

[00:01:55] Anna Toonk: I want to know that we're not all not going to die too

[00:01:58] Nina Endrst: soon.

It is like, I I've never. It is for snore. I've never wanted snow, like more badly that then like I have this year, I'm watching so much weird shit. I mean, granted I'm into so much weird shit. Like, it's not like that's new, but I'm compulsively watching all this stuff on YouTube about people who live in like, The Arctic circle and stuff.

And like, I just, it's so weird. Like, what is this, you know, like I was talking to you earlier today about like moving to the mountains, like to really hibernate like this winter. I don't know. I want deep, deep winter. I don't, I don't know what's up with that, but I do think, I, I agree with you that some of it I think is, is that it's affirming that we're not going to all die.

Like I'm not the person pumped when it's in the sixties in January. It upsets me so bizarre.

[00:02:46] Anna Toonk: Same. So we're

[00:02:48] Nina Endrst: talking about, I was going to say, do you feel shame around it per chance? I

[00:02:56] Anna Toonk: I'm stoked. I'm stoked to be here talking about shame.

[00:03:00] Nina Endrst: I'm ready. Okay. So definition wise, I've got two sources for us because I felt like, and it's something I've been learning and doing these little definitions for us.

Is often, like we're talking about it from a psychological viewpoint, you know, and if you look at just the definition of that, that doesn't always encompass it. So I have a little bit of the two for us today. Miriam and Webster says definition of shame, one, a a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety.

One B the susceptibility to such emotion. Have you no shame, a condition of humiliation, humiliating disgrace or disrepute. Okay. The shame of being arrested is the example three, a something that brings censor or reproach, also something to be regretted. It's a shame. You can't go. Be a cause of feeling shame.

Shame is a verb shaming, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, here we go. Definition of shame is a transitive verb to bring shame, to shame to the family name, to put shame by outdoing, to cause to feel shame, to force by shame. But it's like, what the fuck does any of that mean? So I was like, let me Google, like, what's the psychological definition of shame.

And I found this from very well mine. Dot com that has a lot of really helpful resources that I would recommend to anyone. Who's kind of curious about shame. I appreciated the way they broke things down and I might reach y'all a little bit later, the differences between shame and guilt, because I thought that was really.

Shame can be defined as a feeling of embarrassment or humiliation that arises in relation to the perception of having done something dishonorable and moral or improper. It was interesting though, because. When looking up at shame, people are like, yeah, it's pretty bad. We don't like it. It's like pretty universally regarded as a negative emotion, which, I mean, anyone dabbling in the psychological arts I think is really hesitant to label anything negative.

Cause you know, they're like we experienced all of it, you know, no bad feelings everything's valid, blah blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was interesting how it negative or how would shame all these people were like universally, like, yeah, it's bad. You know, because, and you know, Bernay brown is she's not only the patron Saint of vulnerability, but she really is a lot about shame as well.

And. Something like that was really interesting. That those very well minded article was talking about is that yes, that shame is a negative emotion, but it's also played an integral part in our species survival because it's part of what can be tough tapped into for us to be regulated. Like that's part of how you can get people to follow like laws and stuff, which I thought was really interesting that it's like, oh, there's this like, 3%, which that, that like serves us.

But overall it's hugely problematic when we're internalizing it because we internal lies it as. Divorcing us from our belonging in term. And we internalize it as like, I am bad. Like not what I did was, but I am, which I think is fascinating like that. We make that leap without like trying.

[00:06:48] Anna Toonk: Do you think we make that leap because we're taught to make that leap or because that's just human nature to go to like

the

[00:06:55] Nina Endrst: worst.

I think shame is so overwhelming and debilitating when it fires that we don't even know. That's what we're. I think it's kind of similar to trauma in the sense of like, we don't get a say in how it's filed, you know, that it's just like, yeah. Either. Cause something for me that, you know, I'd be really curious what your relationship was shame.

But like, I think, I mean, I felt so much shame as a little kid, you know, like, and was so self-conscious and was just sort of like had this constant feeling of link, low grade embarrassment that I think came from it's directly related to trauma. And the older I got and I went through a phase where I definitely was like, The sluttiest emotionally.

I was like, hi, my name is Anna. Here's my trauma, dah, dah, dah. And my favorite color is blue. You know? People could like couldn't handle it. And when I started to read more about like shame and trauma and all these different things and about how so many times, like we're often in order to heal shame, we have to offload it.

We got to get it out of us. You know, it was like a big part of it. And a big part of that is like telling your story or talking about what you feel shame around. And I find it fascinating that in that process, Almost all of us choose the worst people. Like we choose people who cannot hold the story and then it reinforces the shame.

I don't know about you. But I went around in that circle for, I would say probably five years, you know, of just like, oh, feel really bad about this. Well, let me tell it to the person who has zero emotional case.

[00:08:49] Anna Toonk: Totally. And then be like, what a fucking asshole I am to even say it out loud. I don't deserve anything. I mean, I couldn't even pick the right person to talk to shaman.

[00:09:00] Nina Endrst: Well, I'm right. You know, like it is pretty gross, gross out there.

[00:09:08] Anna Toonk: They seem

[00:09:09] Nina Endrst: horrified, noting that this is someone who's like also probably pretty grossed out by like their entire cities now, like steeped in not about me, but I find it just like, oh my God. It's like, when you're learning about boundaries and you want to go like, test it out with your family. It's like, no, The Olympics you train for that shit, like start to smaller and it's like, you

[00:09:33] Anna Toonk: start with the

[00:09:34] Nina Endrst: girl.

Oh my God. That's literally what I was thinking in my head. Literally. That's amazing. Battery wise. This is why we're partners. Y'all it's like our hierarchy of needs. Like, of course, most are both our brains, but like what's a low stakes.

[00:09:51] Anna Toonk: But don't

[00:09:53] Nina Endrst: fuck. No, it'd be real important in our lives, but yeah, that it's like, oh my God, it just cracks me up.

That it's like, what made go to tell this person versus like, you know, trying it out with an old friend or something. I feel like I would tell the worst people versus like trying to talk to the people I did know and trust, you know, because. That felt so shameful to like, oh, there seems to be some like reprieve from the shame of like, we pretend this thing about me doesn't exist or something.

I don't know.

[00:10:38] Anna Toonk: but before we talked to other people, I feel like what I've learned. One of the things I've learned about Seamus, we have to talk to ourselves about it, which is. I mean, maybe that's not true for everyone. Certainly. It's not always true, but I've found. Me working stuff out before I processed that with somebody else is healthier for me and creates like a safety net almost of like, you've already kind of been here, like you've already, you already know sort of your way around what it is you're feeling shame about.

Or, and if I come to some realization like through, you know, a session with somebody or a friend. I try not to talk to friends that much about this kind of stuff anymore at all. Really? Which I don't know is that, I mean, I guess I, I just don't talk to my friends about shame

[00:11:35] Nina Endrst: anymore. I think that it depends.

I think my relationship with what I processed. Yeah. I think like it's funny. I think if you would ask me that a year ago, we'd been like, yeah, that's bad. Like you need to talk to people. And then you've actually taught me a lot about that, of like stop fucking talking to everyone, you know, like

[00:11:55] Anna Toonk: somewhere in the middle, somewhere in the middle of.

I,

[00:11:59] Nina Endrst: you know, there's a big team. There's something. I mean like your friend, shouldn't be your therapist. Number one. No, that's what I mean. Yes. I think that's the way you're intending it. And two, I do think like, You're not going to really free yourself from it. If you don't ask yourself, what's the story around it.

If you're like, whoa, I felt a lot of shame around that. Like, what's that about? Like, we are the only ones with those answers. Like it's helpful. Like my therapist can only do so much for me if I just say like, you know, This happened, you know, if I say to her, oh my gosh, I got in a fight with Nina and I felt really ashamed and did it.

And she's like, okay, cool. Like, let's go down. Like, what did Nina say? That made you have that response. Okay. What's that story, you know, but if I'm just like out of it and if a weird, like, she could only help me so much, you know? So it's like, you have to do some of that inquiry to realize like, what even happened, you know?

Yeah. Right. So something I found interesting on those very well mind, which granted. You know, take all of this with a grain of salt. It is not a replacement for real mental health care. If you feel like shame is really impacting your life, by all means, get some profession care, don't go by this website, but I just thought he was, or this or the podcast.

We're just as like, we're trying to figure it out just as much as you are. So I thought this was interesting though, that they broke down like the different, they said according to the academic book shame, which I was like, Ooh. And then I was like, oh, academic published by Oxford university press. I was like, that's not going to be a fun read.

Let's be real. No. Well, and I find that stuff so dense and it's like, it's not fun to like, look up a word, every three words, like you're not reading, then you're just learning vocab. But at that point, but anyway, the authors identified four different categories of shame behaviors, the hot response to behavior

[00:13:56] Anna Toonk: sexy or not.

[00:13:59] Nina Endrst: My responses to hot, to behaviors, to cope with, or conceal shame, three safety behaviors to avoid chamber being discovered for behaviors to prepare shame. So the hot response, these are things you do when you feel ashamed and defensive, such as lashing out in anger or attacking the other person to deflect attention from yourself.

The hot response is usually an impulsive reaction. Behaviors to cope with their concealed shame. These might be things like making yourself feel small, trying to avoid being the center of attention or not sharing your thoughts or feelings, concealing yourself as it is a method of self protection, safety behaviors to avoid shame are being discovered.

These might be things like apologizing, crying, or avoiding conflict. People who have a tendency toward being emotional or avoiding conflict might be more likely to engage in safety behaviors, behavior to repair shame. These might include things like doing things to soothe yourself or apologizing to others.

For example, if you forgot an important anniversary, you might tell yourself you had a lot going on in your mind or engage in gestures to show them your sorry, which I thought was interesting to think about. Like, I think so often, like what you and I have learned through doing this. It's like, you know, we'll have a word roll.

Be thinking about it and thinking about like what our journey has been with it, but it's like, it just keeps being Invus sized to me, how complex these things are that we're starting with one word shame, and then it's like, we're learning all these types of it. Well, we're learning all these different ways.

It expresses, then there's also different types of shame in all these things that it's just like. Wow. How is it that any of us figure out how to get up and get dressed and like go about things every day. There's just so much to learn and balance and, you know, try to integrate it's remarkable.

[00:15:49] Anna Toonk: I feel like the shames, I mean, there are so many pieces to what you just said in the definition.

What I would have originally have thought of coming into this of was about myself. Like generally it was a defensiveness or becoming small. And when you mentioned the latter part of it, which was to essentially like, try to make up for it by like, by I'm picturing, like buying a gift, or did you say that?

And I just, was it like trying to

[00:16:22] Nina Endrst: revive

[00:16:23] Anna Toonk: here saying, sorry, like right by like making an

[00:16:26] Nina Endrst: upstairs? Yeah.

[00:16:29] Anna Toonk: That stuff is, is becoming so much clearer to me in this part of my life, where I see people or I'll see it in myself. And that has become like this interesting way that it manifests in people like making up for it, making gestures that don't feel, you know, very genuine, obviously, because they're rooted in.

Guilt or shame. And I just, I feel so bad for us all. Pardon me is just like, oh man, can we just. Be nicer to ourselves and shame is such an obstacle, I think, for so many people, because it overshadows so much, but it almost like suffocates us, you know? And we, and you said earlier, I don't think a lot of people even realize how drenched in it they are from.

I remember, I think I've told this random story on this podcast before, but I remember my first memory of shame. I don't have like a lot of memories. One of my first memories of shame was that's not super intense. One was, I was at camp and I was young and these boys picked me up and I thought they were really cute.

And they, and they turned me upside down and like, my arm was open and my armpit was out. And I guess I had like an errant hair. I was like nine or 10 and they like would not let it go the whole. And I was so embarrassed and I felt so much shame. And I remember just being like, I'm awful. Like, because I, because I literally was like learning to shave my armpits and I

[00:18:13] Nina Endrst: missed a spot.

I mean, regardless. I mean, like if it, yeah, exactly. Like, I mean, yes. I mean, you should have been, I mean, at that point you should have been waxing and been much better at it.

[00:18:25] Anna Toonk: I mean, obviously I'm like, excuse me, and got to go get my bikinis out. And

[00:18:30] Nina Endrst: you're like, I'm sorry, my waxer couldn't get me in before K9 she's off on Tuesdays.

You guys. I agree, but I feel like the things, oh my God, when I was a kid, it was so free-floating and I had such a physical reaction to shame where like hot face and I literally can feel the sensation of me, like shutting down collapsing inward. It was such a like, What's maybe like the opposite of a black hole.

Like I just felt like my energy, everything, my essence, my personnel, all of it. Collapsed for a second, you know, or what did you think was

[00:19:15] Anna Toonk: going to happen? Did you, do you remember thinking

[00:19:18] Nina Endrst: anything was going to happen? I think I'm still trying to answer that because, I mean, I think I've talked to you about my fear of like so often of when, like, I really think if I step into something or claim something that like, someone's going to jump out of the bushes and be like, you're dumb bitch.

Like you're not that, you know, and I really think. Started when I gotcha. Yeah. When I was a kid and anything like there, wasn't a lot of tenderness in my family. Like, and I don't mean just my parents. I mean, like across the board and it was like, There wasn't vulnerability. There wasn't a lot of authenticity, like, so there was so much self-consciousness that.

Okay. I'm going to tell you all a secret and you can't tell anyone. You especially can't tell my mother, my mom got into edibles in later years and. It was great. It was actually like bonding for her. Is she an Ivy? You know, she was like, oh my God, I love drugs. They make me not self-conscious. And I was like, that's their selling point, mom?

Like, that's like, that's it. You know? And she was like, I just feel really free. And I feel silly and I dance and all this stuff. Interesting because our mom is very who she is in some ways. And I was like, oh, this self-consciousness is generational. Like, oh, I just kind of misunderstood it in a way. I had just thought sort of like it had been.

Me or like it had been done to me or something. And I was like, no, this is part of a larger dynamic, you know? So I think also too, I would have really intense reactions to things I was already a little insecure about and. My family dynamic was so black and white and was so like good people do this, like bad people do this.

And I was almost always on the side of the bad people in the sense of just like, I, this is the dumbest stuff of like, You know, my mom would put me in all these like cutesy, like tights and things. And, and my grandmother wants county and the basement. This is like, when you tell one of those stories, do you think is like kind of funny and people are like, oh, that's trauma.

But like my grandmother found me like hopping, hiding a leg behind the other in the basement. It was like, what are you doing? What is happening? And I was like, I got a hole on my tights and she's going to be so mad. I was like three. And it was like, good people do this bad people do this. And I was like, I don't know how to like, not get a hole in tights.

I don't know what to tell you. Like, it doesn't feel super in my control. You know what I mean? It's like I'm playing and doing this. It was always this, like, if you can't do this stuff or if you can't. You're a bad person, you know, in a way, like, I think if I, if my mom like heard this or my, you know, they would be like, what the fuck are you talking about?

Of course you're not a bad person, but I don't think people in these moments when you have these choices of like, we can't control how someone internalizes something. Should it make us more mindful about our delivery, you know, of that I'm sent, I'm like being so crazy about these tights. Like maybe I should like not set up a toddler to fail and should get her some leggings.

Get a little bitch and leggings. Don't getting,

[00:22:44] Anna Toonk: are you seeking interconnection and thoughtful instruction with grounded humans, but don't know where to start.

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[00:23:02] Nina Endrst: It's your personal online roadmap to wellness for mind, body and soul

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[00:23:24] Anna Toonk: I think, I mean, I've said this before. I see it in my son all the time. Like he was eating a Popsicle today and spilled some on the couch and he's so. So sensitive about spilling things. And I mean, I'm very clean, but I never ever say anything to him about that. I'll just be like, it's no big deal, clean it right up.

It's all good. And he's like, oh no, mommy. I spilled. I'm like, it's totally fine, honey. Mommy, we'll clean it. It's no problem. And I see the relief on his face and I wonder so many times throughout the day, like would happen. I mean, I would never do it. What would happen if the conversation went differently?

And for so many children, it goes so differently. How could you do that? What were you thinking? Or just like, oh, I re you know, I've been working so hard on something that my parents used to do. All the time that I'm just realizing is very connected to like sh shame that I have or hold is when my mom used to make the sound.

She still does it, or my dad too. And they'd be like,

[00:24:29] Nina Endrst: oh yes. Ah, I know, oh my God, the sound down. And

[00:24:35] Anna Toonk: I catch myself doing it sometimes. And Milo looking up at me like really quickly. And I'm like, I talk it's okay. It's all good. I'm just clever throat. But I feel that in my body. And I remember that like, oh shit, I did something wrong.

Or my mom thinks I did something wrong or whatever. And you know, we just, we do have to be careful with our delivery. I think there's a fine line, right. Between being aware and being so. Afraid to hurt somebody's feelings or fuck somebody up that we don't say. You know anything, but I think people are finding, find it hard to like have a middle space where they can just be who they are.

And I think your, our parents' generation is very focused on, like, if they're not perfect, like if I bring up anything about my mom or like, well, I, I just, you know, it's like, well, I thought I was a good mom. I'm like, Nobody's saying you're a bad mom. I'm just, she's how she has listened to this. She's got mad.

It's going to be like, love you, mom. Love you, mom. But it's I find it interesting in that generation. I think I see it more than just with her where it's like, I'm not saying that your bad, I'm saying that something happened. I didn't feel good. And I think they carry a lot of shame because think about how their parents taught them.

There was like zero conversation about emotion or like wellness in terms of, you know, mind, body, soul, like, how are you doing that?

[00:26:12] Nina Endrst: Wasn't a fun also like my mom's incredibly defensive as well. Sometimes when I'm like, can we just. You know, compare notes on this, you know, like she's not super interested. I mean, and, and she gives me, I mean, she does give me a lot of access to her.

She has been willing to discuss a lot, like I'm, I can't fault her for that, but that defensiveness, I mean, Talk about like a deflection for shame, you know? Like, and, and I think about that a lot too, that, of like when I can be defensive or when I think, because I've worked a lot in creative processes and things like, it can be really easy when someone's like, oh, it'd be cool if like the font was different or whatever.

And you're like, you've known like that was hand lettered. It was or whatever. So you fucking hate me. You fucking know, but I. No cause you're, you're always appreciative and you're not critical, but I mean, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:27:13] Anna Toonk: Hang in that moment. There's like, there's like, what do you hate my

[00:27:16] Nina Endrst: font? You hear me?

It's not even that. It's more like something I learned when I was learning. Taro was. You know, like often whatever we're questioning, we attract people who make us want to defend it, you know? And I think for me, it's been separating things out. So I don't feel shame about things that I may be unsure about or already different, like on the fence about, or I've realized like I need to give myself.

A lot more gentleness, like when I'm changing or evolving or like putting something out in the world. And in that, it's really important for me to be mindful of like, who I'm talking to you about it with or like, oh my God. Because it's like, there's these two camps. There's the people who are like, oh my gosh, that's so exciting.

Like tell me all about it. Or there's the camp, you know? And I still have some friends in this that are like, You have a podcast, like what are you even talking about on it? And I'm like, thank you. Thank you for exactly. Laying into my fear of who the fuck am I to have. You know, like, oh my God.

[00:28:22] Anna Toonk: Remember what, remember what I said to you that a former friend was like, you're like a business woman now.

I love bitch. I've been, uh, I've been a business woman. I don't know. I was

[00:28:33] Nina Endrst: 21. When people say that to me, like, I can feel some shame sometimes of like, I know I'm not as on top of shit as I like could or should be that I'm like, I'm not that great about my bookkeeping. Like, I don't know how much I'm making each month.

Like, I'm like, oh, everything's cool. Cause I'm paying my bills and I'm making money, but I'm like, I should be more on top of this. So when someone's like, oh manga and you are a little boss batch or something, I'm like, I'm not real. You know,

[00:29:02] Anna Toonk: our partnership has taught me so much about sharing. And in like the creative process and how, how I've felt for so long.

Like, I. Didn't have it figured out or should know more, you know, I've said this before I had so many good on paper jobs. Great. On paper jobs, you know, that were like really easy to impress a room full of like, you know, your high school friends, parents. They're like, wow, that's great. You know what I mean?

You're not a fuck up anymore. That's what I think that. And then I'm like, Hey bitches, uh, moving to Mexico to read teaching yoga. And they're like, that's a risk, but I think I work. So what I've uncovered, especially in the past couple of years is I work so hard and I don't mean this in like any sort of like martyr way at all.

I'm blessed beyond measure that I get to do what I love and. Relaxed schedule doing it, but I throw myself into these things and I focused so much. I put so much time and thought and effort into it. And I really so much of it has stemmed from the shame that I'm this big fuck up that is never going to actually succeed and like, who am I to think I am.

And it's definitely. You know, gotten a lot better. I've healed a lot of that, but I still find myself getting drawn into these spaces that, you know, thought spaces that feel like, come on, you gotta work harder. Like, come on, you got to clean this up, come on, you gotta do more. Like, and it stems so much from shaman.

And when you and I started working together, I remember being very like. Don't be defensive if she doesn't like something like that's okay. You know, and I just had to let it go from the beginning because I knew if I didn't, I would be like, oh, I did it wrong. You know? And one thing you used to say to me all the time that like, I would really want to crawl into a hole and die.

I'm not sure if you know this, not that it was coming. But you'd be like, nobody knows what it is. And I'm like, Anna, how don't they know what it is, Anna, I'm trying so hard to tell people what it is, Anna and you were so right in so many ways. And it just shows me like how much vulnerability and shame dance together in this fucked up.

And also beautiful way of like, when I released. That shame and was able to be vulnerable and be like, yeah, you know, I see that. And I'm putting myself out there. It evolves into something so much greater and more meaningful and expansive because I wasn't holding so tightly and gripping to the shame and being defensive or shrinking,

[00:31:43] Nina Endrst: you would have moments.

Oh, I mean, I absolutely knew at times and you would have moments and I would be like, oh, She's like I've hit, I've hit a nerve or something, but I have to say, I think you have. I mean, like, I think that's why this works. I think, like, I think we felt a really strong sense of like, oh, like we knew we were supposed to work together.

We didn't know why, like we're figuring it out. And it was like, because I think we could figure out that dance. Like I wouldn't take it personally and was like, Also I think empathized and was like, I would feel the same way too, that if someone came in and was like, okay, but also I think sometimes you would like be in your field or something, and then you would process and you would come back and then we would like figure it out, you know?

And like, she would be like, it says right here, or you would like screenshot something and I would be like, oh yeah, that's

[00:32:45] Anna Toonk: such a mean thing to do.

[00:32:47] Nina Endrst: Prove it. Well, I mean, which, I mean, I re. Part of why, like I laugh is cause like I'm the same way. And my thing was like, no, like I'm not criticizing you. It's more like, I'm on your side of like, I agree.

I don't get how people don't understand this, but it is the feedback. Like that's what we have to deal with. And a big thing with shame is it's like, it tells you you're not worthy. It tells you. You don't like, you're not worthy. You're not good enough. You're not good enough for this. And I think sometimes like, I don't know about you.

How many things have you either like fucked up or relationships you've let go or people that you've been like, oh, wow, we can't have this discussion or whatever, because Shane got in the way. And that's like, there was so many times like in the process, like when we, when we rebranded the website, there was so many moment.

That I was like any doubts that I had, like I don't anymore. W both for me personally, in the sense of like, I don't, like every time I was like, I'm going to send her a reference or send her an idea and she's going to be like, this is too far. You're insane. Or like, you, you know, like I kept having this like, cause of my, like fears of rejection and stuff that I was like, there was going to be something that made you be like, JK changed my mind, I'm out, you know?

And it wasn't about. It was nothing to do with your behavior. It was my first smell. I mean, like for real, real my thing, but it was interesting. And I remember saying to friends, I was like, honestly, Nina is having a really good attitude. Like I would have a much, I would be much more. And if I feel I would've been like, okay, fine, like we'll change it.

And we'd like to have to figure out what's going on, but you need to be like, way, way nicer to me about it.

[00:34:52] Anna Toonk: I liked the tough love. And I also, I think, you know, I was thinking about an, an old friend I had. Yesterday, because part of my shame, I think, and I don't know if you, if you feel this is, we talked about some friendship a little bit, like, did I let go too soon? Or did I put the bathroom? Was I too, you know, from an old friend of mine, we had, she had a wedding, like a really extravagant wedding in Greece and it was super expensive and I didn't, we didn't have like a lot of money then at all.

And we really like stretched ourselves to go and it was great experience. Except for it really wasn't when we were there because her family was kind of a nightmare. And I went out of my way to like celebrate her as a friend does, and I got back and I called her when I got pregnant and I will never forget this moment.

I was sitting, I was standing outside and I told her, and the first thing out of her mouth was, oh, we're trying. And I was like, you just got married, man. Like you can't just be like, congratulations. I'm so happy for you. Like, I, it just was so bizarre. And so her and I went back and forth and then this other thing happened where she sent me a message and was like, I'm ready.

So I'm pregnant in living in Mexico and she sends me a message asking. If Zika virus is bad because she's thinking about getting pregnant and will be soon be traveling to Mexico. Exactly. And I wrote back and I was like, are you kidding me? And I was just so frustrated, but my shame spiral was I was thinking about her the other day.

And I ended the friendship because when I went to talk to her about it, she literally shut down on every single level. And I don't think she's a bad person or no. Yeah. What I found so fascinating was when I was like, Hey, this is why I'm really bothered. And. I want to feel this way. Let's talk about it.

Her response was, I don't know what to say, and I don't know where we go from here. And I was like, so you just don't want to talk at all about it. And she couldn't, she couldn't like, she was like, I was just trying to connect with you. So I guess I did it wrong and that's it like, and we never were friends again.

And it was sad because like, that's. It

[00:37:16] Nina Endrst: did. And it said, sock, I shouldn't be interrupting you, but I'm like I'm. So who don't know?

I, so many relationships that I felt like the conflict, the feelings, whatever, like. Doable like felt navigable, I think, because of shame just wasn't, you know, like or emotional maturity or something. I think it was more shamed to be honest, that people had no idea. Maybe how to tend to themselves or to, I mean, like I, like, I give this former friend of yours credit for being honest, in the sense of like, I don't know where we go.

Like, you know, like I'm out, I've, I've exceeded my skillset because that takes a certain level of self-awareness, you know, but like, It's like, okay. So if you were trying to connect fair, like I'll hear you on that. Like, why is it so horrible to hear like that it didn't work? Why, you know, like why does that have to cook?

Like, cause a shame spiral, you know? And

[00:38:29] Anna Toonk: if it does, why does that, you know, and. So much for so many people, you know, like I

[00:38:36] Nina Endrst: think about like relationships or romantic.

[00:38:40] Anna Toonk: Yeah, exactly. I think so many men or boys really were scared too. Like I just go in with like my baggage and I'd be like, I'm dropping it off at your house.

And we can talk about my shame. I know. Like we can unpack it together. They'd be like, I don't want to look at anything. Like I want to drink binge drink and like for pretend. Nothing exists inside of me. And I'd be

[00:39:05] Nina Endrst: like, yeah, totally. Yes. And I would be like, cool. So I'm pretty good at the light talking stuff.

So we could like figure this out together

[00:39:15] Anna Toonk: together. We're gonna figure it out together. And what I had so much shame around in that space was so much. Kind of exits regard, like, and I didn't realize it wasn't a reflection of me. It wasn't that I was doing something wrong. Although I share the same of like being way too emotionally slutty for me, I don't care about them.

Although I do care about them. I care about gap, like fire, hosing people with stuff. I don't think that's

[00:39:43] Nina Endrst: nice, but it wasn't coming with. With us now. I mean, from us, like a harmed place, like, which is different. I think it's

[00:39:51] Anna Toonk: also just like a way to beat. Like, it felt so much like, okay, let me get this out of the way.

I was

[00:39:56] Nina Endrst: like, if you're going to be go, you might as well go now, like, let me tell you it's going to be, for me. It was like, it was trying to build false intimacy. It was like, it's going to be way more painful. If I like get to know you and like get invested in you and then you learn these things about me and leave, like, let me just be really inappropriate and barf it all at you right now.

Regardless of consent. Regardless of if you even give a shit about me, you know, like, let me just like, oh, like you don't need.

[00:40:27] Anna Toonk: At a cocktail at a cocktail

[00:40:29] Nina Endrst: party, like you don't even buy sheets. And yet I'm like, let me tell you my trauma, you know, like that's who I was like, this, this is who you should trust with your inner parts of self, like baby Anna c'mon, you know,

[00:40:44] Anna Toonk: like I know.

And those, those moments of shame, I think for healing. Shame has a lot to do in my mind, in my opinion, with forgiving and witnessing, or just keeping those past versions of ourselves safe and close, meaning like, you know what, you're fine. Like it wasn't the end of the world. Everything is okay. We don't need to like bury

[00:41:12] Nina Endrst: you survive.

It

[00:41:14] Anna Toonk: heal you, you know, there's so many like meditations and stuff about like letting the past selves go and. Agree with that. I don't think we have to just completely dismiss. I don't think it's healthy to completely dismiss any version of ourselves. Like they

[00:41:28] Nina Endrst: are fake to be honest. Like I think it's, I think it's kind of a different problem.

Like, and I mean, this is the thing too, like in weight loss and like, I catch friends sometimes when they'll be like, if they've lost weight, like whatever, whatever anyone wants to do with their bodies, their prerogative. But when they start being like, I was disgusting before, I'm like, don't talk about my friend like that.

That's not true. Like previous, you wasn't this like, you know, goblin, and now you're saying like, I don't, I don't love that idea. I tried it. Like, I laugh a lot, which surprises? No one, but I do try to I'm like, Aw, baby, Anna, you know, I felt so for, I don't know, you might like the story. You might not. We'll we'll we'll see, let's get into it.

I got briefly obsessed with Y seven yoga, which is, I had talked so much shit about hot yoga that I should have been so embarrassed to show my face in there. And Katie Storino who used to have a blog now she just on Instagram is her name, but she said the blog, the twelve-ish style and. Hunter Grady. I think who's the sports illustrated model.

She's a plus size model, blah, blah, blah. You could like go work out with them. They were like doing a themed. You could go take like movement classes with them. They were like, oh, are you intimidated? Like come to soul cycle with us, come to Stephan. I was like, oh, this is cool. I like these women. I like the work they do.

I'm trying to get back into moving more. This would be good. You know? So one of them was why seven. Funny cause Melissa, who's a good friend of mine. And also our publicist now had been trying to get me there. And I was like, guess where I am right now. And she's like, where I was like, why seven? She's like, shut up.

She'd been trying to get me there for like two years. Anyway, I ended up going, ended up loving it, something about, I don't like heat. I don't like sweating yet. Apparently I really dig it in the dark with like a great soundtrack then. Um, but I felt so. Hi afterwards, like, because of the sweating. I think that I was like newly converted, super Intuit was going all the time.

So anyway, I'm there one day. And if you don't know how, why seven works, you do three flows or you do the same flows three times, sorry. Yeah. And you get to like free swim during the flow at one point. And it's usually for about a minute and a half, two minutes. And they're, I love that. They're really good.

Honoring that like, whatever you want to do, they're totally fine with that. There's always someone who wants to do handstands, you know, like there's always someone who kind of wants to show off every class. So when I had come in and I'd already clocked who that was going to be in this check had been like practicing and, you know, so anyway, she starts doing handstands.

We're so sweaty. She slips, slams onto the ground, lets out the loudest fart in the history of the universe. No, the wood floor, which makes it even louder. She hates the for it's like bam. And she's like let's out in the fart. It's truly comical. Like, like going on forever. She goes, oh no. And just lays there.

And so she's trying to, like, at the end of the class, she's trying to like, wait as if we don't know who she is, you know, or what's happened to like leave last, you know, which I was like, that's an interesting approach. I would've gotten out of there immediately. And I went up to her and I said, call your mom, call your best friend, tell them what happened.

I was like, cause she was like mortified. I was like, you, there's no reason to be ashamed. I mean, I was like, yeah, I get it. It's embarrassing. But like farting is also hilarious. Like you need to call people and laugh about this, so you're not haunted by it. I understand

[00:45:27] Anna Toonk: why I don't like kind of telling the story.

Got it. She was

[00:45:31] Nina Endrst: like, you know, and I was like, I get it. You're in a shame spiral. But anyway, like a week later I saw her again and she was like, what is your name? You saved my life. Like, I didn't want to do what you, you told me to do. But I called my best friend and we laughed and she's like, and I felt totally.

Fine about it. And I absolutely would not have felt that way if I had not done it. And I was like, oh, like I've gotten something. And when I learned how to work with shame in that regard of like doing some of that self processing, like you were talking about earlier of kind of going like, Hmm, what did not hit, you know, to then also telling someone, you know, like, And I think I've learned, like you're someone I'll tell stuff that I'm ashamed about.

Cause it's like, you never meet, we were judgment. So I'll be like, Ooh, I'm feeling a little, this, or I'm feeling self-conscious or I'm sensitive about the, you know, like those might be the words I'm using. Well, you know, what's coming back of like shame, you know, like this is something that like, can spark shame or something for me, you know?

And I would just say to anyone as we start to wrap up, like, don't talk to everyone, don't be emotionally slutty about it. Like, because it's not like that's a bad thing, but don't choose poorly in terms of who you're trusting this piece of yourself with. If you tell people the things you're ashamed of that like, you know, for a fact like love you and see you there.

Maybe not even have to love you, but like genuinely like you and don't judge you or criticize you, or maybe project the things they're ashamed of on you. It's a real game changer. Like you might be talking to someone at Y seven and being like, don't be embarrassed, girl.

[00:47:20] Anna Toonk: I love that piece. And I think it's such an important thing to think about the second step after we talk it out with ourselves to share something that's such an important distinction for me, like sharing. Something with someone is different than asking them to like take it away or fix it. And that's why I personally like paused telling people that I telling a lot of people are telling certain people because I realized I wasn't, I was expecting something.

And what. Encouraged her to do is so beautiful. And I think so healing in a ridiculous, you know, story, but to release something. And, but in not a way, like, oh my God, please take this away from me. Just, oh my God, this happened. And I need to like, oh, she

[00:48:08] Nina Endrst: would have much preferred. I hadn't talked to her for sure,

[00:48:12] Anna Toonk: obviously.

But then how happy was she that you did think about how many cars you saw her? And you're like, I see her. I see. Shaming. I'm not in doubling down on the shame. I think that's such a huge part of it. It's like when we go to somebody. They either feel awkward or they don't know what to do with it. It's kind of like hot potato.

They're like, uh, yeah. And then they like throw it back to you and you're like, oh yeah,

[00:48:35] Nina Endrst: go for it. Yeah. And did you tell someone like you hurt my feelings and I'm like, oh my God, I'm the worst for hurting your feeling? And you're like, wait, why am I comforting? You, you know? Oh,

[00:48:44] Anna Toonk: that's what, that, that's what I was taught.

That it was either. Don't talk about it because I don't want to hear it or it was, oh my God. And then I was like, let me clean up your fucking mess.

[00:48:56] Nina Endrst: So I have two Bernanke quotes that I wanted. One Shane corrodes, the very part of us that believes we are capable of change, which I really liked. And when I look at narcissism through the vulnerability lens, I see the shame-based fear of being ordinary.

I see the fear of never feeling extraordinary enough to be noticed, to be lovable, to belong more, to cultivate a sense of purpose. Um,

[00:49:25] Anna Toonk: yes, please I'll have that one. Yeah.

[00:49:26] Nina Endrst: I had a feeling you were going to like that and I think that it's so like the doubling down of the shame, if you feel shame for her, try not to compound your shame.

But yeah, I think about how many things, when I was younger, I carried for so long or like replayed for myself. And if I had just said something or like laughed about it or been like, oh my gosh, that was so awkward or whatever, the energy, the space, the energy, the F you know, like I could have saved power, like

[00:50:02] Anna Toonk: the power we give it when we're just in our fucking heads.

Crazy. Oh my God or, or the body, you know, whatever. It's just yeah. Saying it, processing it and whatever way, you know, even if it's, if you don't want to talk about it, but you want to write it down or you want to like move it out or you want to scream like any of that, but physically, mentally. Spiritually, like moving it away from you.

So you're not like, oh, now I'm literally never, that girl could have never gone back to that studio. Which frankly, like if I were her, I probably wouldn't have

[00:50:34] Nina Endrst: understood. Yeah, definitely. Never the same class.

[00:50:38] Anna Toonk: Absolutely not ever, but good for her. Just what a teacher, you know, you are, and not like a gross way to be like, Hey, I see you.

And you're still fine. Like, and it is funny, you know, it's well, definitely embarrassing, but it's fine.

[00:50:53] Nina Endrst: Yes. And like, what you're saying is something I do for myself, or sometimes I'll say things aloud and I'll be like, I am so embarrassed right now. Like literally to myself, I'll just say it aloud all the time, but I also.

Well, remind myself, like, because shame is so much about like divorcing you from your sense of self in a way that it's important. Like we internalize it. So lightening quick that like, this makes me a bad person. The more, I think even if you say it aloud, like I am not a bad person. Cause I farted in a yoga class.

Like you can hear the. before you misfile it in your brain. So I find that helpful sometimes when I feel shame to be like, I'm not a bad person, because I'm flawed. Like I'm not a bad person. Cause I made a typo. Like it helps me to say it aloud to hear it for the absurdity of it, you know?

[00:51:50] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Agreed. I think even if it's something, you know, on the more serious side of things, like.

RN addict or you have been arrested or whatever it is, right? Societal like society has deemed inappropriate or that's not largely accepted. It's the same rule applies. You know, everybody

[00:52:13] Nina Endrst: has things you did. They're not who you are.

[00:52:17] Anna Toonk: Right. Exactly. All right. I think that's a good note to leave it on. Bye.

Bye.

[00:52:26] Nina Endrst: This is winter. That's always going to be weird with us. Welcome.

That's offered today's episode. If there's a topic you want us to discuss, please submit it on our website at thesoulunity.com/

[00:52:42] Anna Toonk: howtobehuman. If you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at the soul unity listeners. Get two weeks free by going to our way. And visiting our podcast

[00:52:52] Nina Endrst: page.

Thanks for listening. And remember we're guides, not gurus.