Speaker: 00:00:00

I think that we should be quicker

to look within ourselves

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and notice our own fallenness

and brokenness

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than to, identify

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another person as the other or outside

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my camp of people.

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And so just the way it's used

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with just bolstering tribal identities

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can often be divisive.

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And I think that as Christians

were called to a kind of love and charity

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that shouldn't be quick to have tribal

alignments.

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And labeling others as woke,

I think, is often

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used to that effect.

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So there's a very popular thing

going on in culture right now.

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It’s being talked about by all kinds

of people, and it's particularly pertinent

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because we're recording this

in the early months of 2025.

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It's very much in the political scene.

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And that is this whole concept of woke

or wokeness.

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And we're going to talk about

that a little bit today.

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And so today I'm joined by Jaran.

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He helped me start Anabaptist

Perspectives a number of years ago.

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And Marlin, who's the current director of,

of Anabaptist Perspectives.

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And let's just open up with

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why are we talking

about the concept of wokeness?

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Jaran, why don't you kick us off?

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Like you said,

many people are talking about it now.

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It's a very live conversation

in the culture,

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and it's something that has reached

Anabaptist perspectives.

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Through some of the feedback

that we've gotten from audience members.

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You, you engage with the audience

feedback a fair bit, don't you?

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Yes. Yeah. Emails, Facebook comments.

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Telegram messages, YouTube comments,

all that comes to me.

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So I figured it would be pertinent.

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Just so people understand a bit

of the context what we're talking about.

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I'm gonna actually read some of these,

these comments.

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Often these

come on YouTube and things like that.

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So here's one.

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We did a episode a while ago, called

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We Must Make Schools Work

for All Children.

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And there's this bit of a long comment

here.

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And the person says that's because

we recognize that education is simply,

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simply discipleship of one's worldview

as it applies to different areas of life.

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We're discipling a little image

bearers of God

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who think biblically about maths

and science and history and art.

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We don't have to drag in Marxist

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DEI categories

which are antithetical to God's law.

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In order to do so, which is what Kuhns...

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And it was Ruth Anna Kuhns who, did that

episode seems to think that we need to do

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this is clear evidence

that Liberty University has gone, woke.

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She was a student at Liberty.

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Okay.

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I was wondering

if there was context for that. Okay.

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Perhaps Kuhns doesn't realize

that she's imbibed

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aspects of their ideology

as it pertains to education,

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but she's actually acting

as a water carrier for them

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and unwittingly helping them

to advance their anti-Christ revolution.

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So pretty strong feelings.

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Coming from there.

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Here's another one on trauma

informed churches.

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That was one you did with Janelle Glick.

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This person said one of the major

red flags with the trauma movement

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is that it

enables perpetual victimhood status.

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People never rise above whatever happened

or did not happen to them.

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They spend the rest of their lives,

the rest of their life

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wanting a a handkerchief

and a hand on the shoulder.

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This is simply not the way to help people.

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And there's a bunch more, a short

snippet someone says on another one.

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Please reject woke nonsense.

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So we get this kind of.

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So this is just a a slice.

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There's a bunch more of these.

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If people want to go comb

through the comments, you'll find more.

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So that's a bit of the context.

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And one of the things we like to do with

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the podcast is to engage

with the feedback we get, from listeners.

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So why don't we start with

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just a brief history of the term woke?

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Like, what are we even talking about

when that term is used?

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It is used so much

in so many different contexts.

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It's pretty easy. To lose track of.

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So yeah. Do you have anything on that?

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Can we divert that to Marlin?

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Marlin would you.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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yeah.

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I can't give a full history, but even

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even just a little bit

of what I've seen in my,

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my own lifetime

and how I've seen that meaning shift.

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I understand

the term goes back before my lifetime.

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Used by Africans.

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I think both African-American and,

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still from the continent of Africa.

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To simply to refer to the idea of,

you know,

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being awake

and particular being awake or aware of

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difficulties they faced

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or oppression or whatever.

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Obviously, as came forward,

got generalized.

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Yeah.

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I remember.

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I don't know, ten years ago

or something like that.

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Woke is a little bit more general term

just of, you know,

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somebody who's

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aware of things, aware of social dynamics

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and maybe some of

that was anti-Christian stuff,

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but it was also just like

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you know, if you're a man

and you're aware of cultural dynamics

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and what the cultural expectations are on

women, and that, whether it's double

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standards in regard to sexual morality

or how you look at dividing up

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housework, if both husband and wife

are working or whatever.

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So it's generally people

using it approvingly.

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And in ways that I don't know.

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I don't know what I think about all of

them, but, you know, relatively innocuous.

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And then

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I think a little later, I remember it

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being kind of used to indicate,

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I don't know, kind of insincerity

or something like,

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you know, somebody

considers themselves woke

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because they can talk about how this

or that is a problem.

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But, you know, they're not really engaged

in it with real life.

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They're

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drinking their lattes and

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making statements about something.

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And so in that sense, it was a little

pejorative in the sense of,

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you know, insincere

or not really having skin in the game,

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but wanting to make statements

about something.

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Or, and then, you know, lip service.

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But yeah, more recently

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Wikipedia.

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Thanks, Jaran,

for pointing out the Wikipedia article.

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Wikipedia says something like 2019,

I can't say exact dates.

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Where where the real shift to woke

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coming from people on the right

and using that as a a way of insulting,

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what

they're considering as left generally,

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again, with some of the same tones

about same ideas of,

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I think, insincere protest and so on.

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But it seems like recently

it has generalized to become kind

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of a catchall for,

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you know, kind of

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anything that's perceived as

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potentially on the left side

of the political spectrum or something,

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I don't know.

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and typically is by the right.

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use, by the right as derogatory?

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is there any other functional definitions

at this point where people would

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wish to use woke

as a description for their own approach,

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or is it only pejorative at this point?

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It seems to me the pejorative is dominant,

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but the idea of it as

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positive.

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Like we are awake,

we are aware of what's going on.

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I mean

that was, that was certainly claimed

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as a positive term not very long ago.

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I think some still would Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I mean who wants to be asleep.

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Yeah.

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That's a great

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I guess I've never thought about this

quite like that but but it's awake

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aware as opposed to in your dull slumbers

not realizing what's going on.

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I mean that's the original idea.

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But then thinking in terms of woke,

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you know,

I don't know if I've ever heard it

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except in the context of someone who would

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claim I'm not woke

and I'm calling something else woke.

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And it's used as a, yeah, kind of insult

or a calling something out.

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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, which

I think we were having a conversation

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at some point a few years ago

where we were talking about the engagement

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we have with our audience on the podcast,

and it seemed like 2019 or the Covid era.

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I guess you could say the comments started

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getting tended to be more

nasty or hostile.

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Do you remember this?

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It does seem like

we've had more of the oh,

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this is for whatever woke or whatever

buzzword seems like that's hitting

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the comments more now

than it would have seven years ago, say

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definitely intensified

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quite a bit over that time.

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Now that's interesting.

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Is there anything more either

you all want to add as far as context

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definitions, etc. on this?

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I mean, just to honor there's

a complex history to the term, and I think

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what we're going to be talking about

now is mostly kind of responding to

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to how it's used as a term of insult

or a term of

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insult or kind of a large negative

characterization.

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Most people are using

the most dominant use of it

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now seems to be as

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seeing it as a bad thing,

using it to criticize.

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And that's primarily

what we're going to be responding to here.

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Yeah.

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And let's and let's get into that where

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yeah some people use this

as a way of criticizing

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and just labeling people or things.

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Let's engage with that.

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What are some, some things

we want to add to that conversation.

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Ways. Perhaps we want to respond.

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Especially because yeah,

it does seem in more recent years

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that that has started

popping up in the comments more.

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And I'm sure those people who made

those comments will be like,

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well, that's

because your your podcast has shifted

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and it's become more woke and blah,

blah, blah, whatever.

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I know I've heard that from a few comments

here and there.

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It's an interesting, yeah, I'd be curious

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what you'd have to say about about that

Jaran.

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This is more about the way

the term is used than the substance behind

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what the term actually mean, that there's

definitely a conversation there.

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But in general, I am sad about the way

I often hear the term

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being used for a few reasons,

one of which is that

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it's often

quite sloppy in the way that it's applied.

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There are

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a variety of different issues

that it could legitimately be

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in reference to,

some of which Marlin referred to,

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but when it's just used

generally as a catchall

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for a particular approach

to issues that we find disagreeable,

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I think it's quite sloppy

and not helpful for constructive dialog

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also, and this especially applies

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when used among brothers and sisters

in the church.

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But my same concern would be with anybody.

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It's used to create tribes of us

versus them.

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Often

when used pejoratively, your are woke.

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Therefore I am not woke.

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Implicitly I have the moral high ground

when I use it that way, and I'm labeling

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somebody else's approach to things

as morally objectionable or inferior.

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I think that we should be quicker

to look within ourselves

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and notice our own fallenness

and brokenness

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than to, identify

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another person

as the other or outside my camp of people.

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And so just

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the way it's used with just bolstering

tribal identities

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can often be divisive.

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And I think that as Christians

were called to a kind of love and charity

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that shouldn't be quick

to have tribal alignments.

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And labeling others as woke,

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I think, is often used to that effect.

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Do you have any examples.

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There's some bring this down to earth

a bit.

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There's examples everywhere.

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It's a it's a huge conversation in culture

right now.

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Like we read some comments

for how people apply it to us.

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I think it's kind of sad.

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I suspect that we're largely

on the same page with the people

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who wish to criticize us.

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In evangelicalism right now.

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I think, what was the publication

Christian Post,

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I think this week, and we're

recording this in February, did an article

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writing about some

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significant disruption

that Wheaton College is experiencing,

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where some alumni have decided

that Wheaton is woke

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and the pushing

for some change in leadership.

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There.

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so that that's one particular occurrence

of Christian against Christian,

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tension

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along the lines of woke versus anti-woke.

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So I find it interesting,

I think you're right

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that, that, you know, putting out the term

woke as a

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00:13:05,659 --> 00:13:10,539

critique, often accomplishes

exactly that, the kind of tribalism

254

00:13:10,539 --> 00:13:13,542

or a little of the sense

of moral superiority.

255

00:13:14,418 --> 00:13:17,421

But not very long ago,

256

00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:20,800

when people were started using woke

257

00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,010

as a form of critique,

or when I kind of encountered it,

258

00:13:23,010 --> 00:13:26,222

as you know,

we use woke to critique your position.

259

00:13:26,222 --> 00:13:29,225

It was precisely critiquing people for

260

00:13:29,642 --> 00:13:32,645

a kind of self-righteousness, because,

261

00:13:32,686 --> 00:13:35,856

you know, I know what to protest better

than, you know what to protest.

262

00:13:36,565 --> 00:13:40,236

And so woke was the using

the term woke to criticize

263

00:13:40,236 --> 00:13:41,862

people was originally meant to criticize

264

00:13:41,862 --> 00:13:43,906

that kind of self-righteousness

and tribalism.

265

00:13:44,949 --> 00:13:45,741

That is

266

00:13:45,741 --> 00:13:49,453

that's an interesting point

because I remember hearing some of this,

267

00:13:49,453 --> 00:13:49,745

you know,

268

00:13:49,745 --> 00:13:53,874

say five years ago when someone would,

would have some meaningful feedback of

269

00:13:53,916 --> 00:13:55,668

maybe an interaction

with someone they knew.

270

00:13:55,668 --> 00:13:59,880

And like that felt awfully whatever

woke this that because they're,

271

00:13:59,922 --> 00:14:02,174

they're, you know, missing this

and then felt like

272

00:14:02,174 --> 00:14:05,761

there was a little more engagement

with what was going on and almost like

273

00:14:06,262 --> 00:14:07,721

they were hiding behind.

274

00:14:07,721 --> 00:14:10,766

Oh, I did the I checked the right box,

you know, on the social justice whatever.

275

00:14:10,766 --> 00:14:14,228

And then it became this criticism

and that label kept getting applied to it.

276

00:14:14,228 --> 00:14:14,812

And then over the years,

277

00:14:14,812 --> 00:14:18,607

it almost feels like

that's morphed to the point where I think

278

00:14:18,899 --> 00:14:19,775

maybe I'm not sure

279

00:14:19,775 --> 00:14:21,902

if you used this exact word,

but almost like a sloppily

280

00:14:21,902 --> 00:14:24,905

applied to all kinds of things

that we end up disagreeing with.

281

00:14:25,447 --> 00:14:28,075

I'm speculating

this is all just things I've kind of seen.

282

00:14:28,075 --> 00:14:29,493

I'm like, oh,

that's interesting and whatever.

283

00:14:29,493 --> 00:14:32,496

And it feels like

the term is being more sloppily applied.

284

00:14:32,538 --> 00:14:36,000

To where now, if you're,

I don't know, a vegetarian now you're woke

285

00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,128

or you don't use a plastic straw,

you're woke or you're this or that.

286

00:14:39,169 --> 00:14:41,922

It just feels like

it's used in so many different contexts.

287

00:14:42,882 --> 00:14:45,009

Does it have much meaning anymore,

288

00:14:45,009 --> 00:14:48,012

or is it just a word we throw around

at people we disagree with?

289

00:14:48,554 --> 00:14:49,555

I don't really know.

290

00:14:49,555 --> 00:14:52,474

Honestly. I'm really confused. Which is

maybe why we're having the conversation.

291

00:14:52,474 --> 00:14:54,310

Because you guys

can help me out with this.

292

00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:57,730

But do you resonate with that

like that sloppily or hastily apply

293

00:14:57,730 --> 00:15:00,232

like I disagree with you

so hey, you're you're woke.

294

00:15:00,232 --> 00:15:03,235

You don't we don't align or whatever.

295

00:15:03,527 --> 00:15:03,819

Yeah.

296

00:15:03,819 --> 00:15:06,614

And it the way it's used

sloppily is definitely functional.

297

00:15:06,614 --> 00:15:12,286

If we're interested in forming lines of

tribal identity or those we disagree with.

298

00:15:12,286 --> 00:15:16,957

But I would say there's

probably not an appropriate function

299

00:15:16,957 --> 00:15:19,960

that we should be seeking out.

300

00:15:20,085 --> 00:15:23,714

So I would be interested

in can we just list some of the

301

00:15:24,757 --> 00:15:26,634

things that

302

00:15:26,634 --> 00:15:29,637

woke is intended to catch.

303

00:15:30,220 --> 00:15:32,014

And you mentioned a few things.

304

00:15:32,014 --> 00:15:35,768

You know I'm thinking things might be a

little more serious than types of straws.

305

00:15:37,686 --> 00:15:40,689

Although environmental concern

is a serious matter.

306

00:15:40,940 --> 00:15:43,943

Yeah that would definitely though

definitely be one.

307

00:15:44,068 --> 00:15:47,154

Like I guess when I, when I hear the term

308

00:15:47,154 --> 00:15:50,491

woke used as a kind of

a, a blanket statement,

309

00:15:51,408 --> 00:15:54,703

I think they're trying to catch

a lot of things under that,

310

00:15:55,788 --> 00:15:59,083

things

that we might assess in various ways.

311

00:16:01,210 --> 00:16:04,213

It does seem to be applied to anybody

with a,

312

00:16:05,214 --> 00:16:07,716

you know, some sense of historical guilt

or something.

313

00:16:07,716 --> 00:16:10,386

You feel guilty

because of what your ancestors did.

314

00:16:10,386 --> 00:16:13,347

That gets is labeled as woke.

315

00:16:13,347 --> 00:16:15,599

If you feel,

316

00:16:15,599 --> 00:16:19,269

you know, any kind of sense

of kind of responsibility because of your,

317

00:16:20,479 --> 00:16:21,855

you know, social position,

318

00:16:21,855 --> 00:16:25,234

class or race

that quickly gets described as woke.

319

00:16:25,859 --> 00:16:28,862

One thing that was mentioned

in the comments,

320

00:16:29,363 --> 00:16:32,116

if there's a sense of,

321

00:16:32,116 --> 00:16:35,995

stretching out victimhood

and playing off of being a victim

322

00:16:36,578 --> 00:16:39,581

that gets labeled as woke,

323

00:16:40,499 --> 00:16:43,544

if you're in favor of same

324

00:16:43,544 --> 00:16:46,964

sex relationships,

that gets labeled as woke.

325

00:16:47,423 --> 00:16:50,259

If you.

326

00:16:50,259 --> 00:16:52,970

Want people to

327

00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:55,556

freely identify with,

328

00:16:55,556 --> 00:16:58,600

you know, whatever gender they want,

329

00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,813

separate from their biological sex

that's labeled as woke.

330

00:17:04,106 --> 00:17:06,942

There's probably a bunch more things that

get caught in there, but I don't know.

331

00:17:06,942 --> 00:17:09,945

Does that resonate? It's the kind of a

332

00:17:10,154 --> 00:17:13,949

a large kind of group of things that

the term I think is intended to catch.

333

00:17:14,283 --> 00:17:18,704

but generally the observation

of unequal distribution of power

334

00:17:18,704 --> 00:17:24,460

or oppressor versus oppressed,

powerful versus disenfranchized

335

00:17:25,044 --> 00:17:30,049

noticing those kind of dichotomies,

I think often is a factor in this.

336

00:17:30,883 --> 00:17:32,051

So that that could apply with

337

00:17:33,218 --> 00:17:35,471

gender, sexuality,

338

00:17:35,471 --> 00:17:37,848

race, ethnicity.

339

00:17:37,848 --> 00:17:40,309

Right. Perhaps a bit broader as well.

340

00:17:40,309 --> 00:17:44,146

You know, wealth,

anything that seems connected

341

00:17:44,146 --> 00:17:47,900

to critical theory or especially critical

race theory gets put there.

342

00:17:48,192 --> 00:17:48,859

Yeah Definitely.

343

00:17:48,859 --> 00:17:52,362

Well actually okay, so you mentioned that

because there was another quote,

344

00:17:52,362 --> 00:17:53,655

I have a whole list here, but

345

00:17:53,655 --> 00:17:57,618

there was another one where we interviewed

the historian John Ruth, about

346

00:17:57,618 --> 00:18:01,997

How did indigenous lands in Pennsylvania

become Mennonite farms, like in Lancaster?

347

00:18:01,997 --> 00:18:02,790

And he did this

348

00:18:02,790 --> 00:18:06,001

research of the land that he lived on

and wrote this book about it.

349

00:18:06,376 --> 00:18:08,879

And someone left this comment.

350

00:18:08,879 --> 00:18:09,963

Just remember, also,

351

00:18:09,963 --> 00:18:12,966

this stance that this man is taking

is a form of critical theory

352

00:18:13,175 --> 00:18:17,012

which is born out of Marxism and pits

the oppressors versus the oppressed.

353

00:18:17,012 --> 00:18:20,641

So that was I think you mentioned that you

you also did as well that power dynamic

354

00:18:20,641 --> 00:18:21,183

and so forth.

355

00:18:21,183 --> 00:18:24,520

This boomer has it so good

all his life that that the land

356

00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,731

that his ancestors gave him,

that he has no other recourse

357

00:18:27,731 --> 00:18:30,734

than to just sell out

to, to his future generations.

358

00:18:30,943 --> 00:18:32,653

That calling him a sellout, basically.

359

00:18:33,612 --> 00:18:34,655

So that would be one.

360

00:18:34,655 --> 00:18:38,158

Marxist, DEI categories was in another

one of the quotes.

361

00:18:38,534 --> 00:18:38,992

I think that

362

00:18:38,992 --> 00:18:42,287

comes into some of the frameworks

you were describing with the maybe power

363

00:18:42,287 --> 00:18:47,126

dynamics and these Marxist, frameworks

that are being in this

364

00:18:47,292 --> 00:18:52,214

that is being accused, that is being,

portrayed, in these episodes.

365

00:18:52,548 --> 00:18:54,508

Which again, I don’t know. It

kind of surprised me.

366

00:18:54,508 --> 00:18:58,846

Like I it's not really what I saw there,

but like but again, these things are

367

00:18:58,929 --> 00:19:01,932

these

labels are used in so many different ways.

368

00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:05,102

It's feels so hard to pin down.

369

00:19:05,102 --> 00:19:08,021

I guess, and that's

why I'm struggling a little bit with this.

370

00:19:08,021 --> 00:19:11,984

I don't know if that just that maybe

just made things more confusing, Yeah.

371

00:19:12,234 --> 00:19:14,862

I mean, that's why

I mean, I agree with you, Jaran. Like,

372

00:19:16,363 --> 00:19:19,199

you know, the term is

373

00:19:19,199 --> 00:19:21,827

generally unhelpful.

374

00:19:21,827 --> 00:19:24,037

You know,

375

00:19:24,037 --> 00:19:27,040

at one point I think the term woke was

376

00:19:27,374 --> 00:19:31,545

and it could be helpful at one point

within my memory not very long ago.

377

00:19:32,171 --> 00:19:35,174

I think the term could be helpful

in kind of pointing out.

378

00:19:36,258 --> 00:19:39,219

You know, a kind of glib,

379

00:19:39,219 --> 00:19:42,222

glib, shallow.

380

00:19:42,973 --> 00:19:46,018

You know, political correctness

or a certain political orientation,

381

00:19:46,894 --> 00:19:49,563

you know, a woker than thou

because you say the right thing

382

00:19:49,563 --> 00:19:51,273

and kind of poking fun at it.

383

00:19:51,273 --> 00:19:54,860

Yeah, I think it had a use at that point.

384

00:19:55,319 --> 00:19:59,740

But at this point, with it being used

for that kind of a blanket, things like,

385

00:20:00,616 --> 00:20:03,619

I don't know, it's

a term used for anymore.

386

00:20:04,036 --> 00:20:07,581

And I think it had a use to

and it's more original sense of,

387

00:20:09,333 --> 00:20:11,001

you know, are you awake?

388

00:20:11,001 --> 00:20:13,086

Are you aware of

389

00:20:13,086 --> 00:20:16,465

how society functions

and not overly naive?

390

00:20:17,549 --> 00:20:19,760

And I'm sure there was more dimensions

to that.

391

00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:20,844

But, you know, that was part of it.

392

00:20:20,844 --> 00:20:24,264

And, you know, I think that was useful

for people who were using it.

393

00:20:26,475 --> 00:20:26,850

Yeah.

394

00:20:26,850 --> 00:20:29,853

Any more that you want to add there.

395

00:20:30,646 --> 00:20:33,273

Based on maybe even the, the Marxist,

396

00:20:33,273 --> 00:20:37,819

the DEI element is packaged with woke

ism or woke whatever.

397

00:20:37,819 --> 00:20:43,325

You want to frame that as do we want

to, go down those rabbit holes at all.

398

00:20:43,367 --> 00:20:45,994

Do you have anything else you want to add?

399

00:20:45,994 --> 00:20:48,789

I mean, can we do just a

400

00:20:48,789 --> 00:20:51,083

very basic,

401

00:20:51,083 --> 00:20:54,294

a very basic

and a philosophical reflection on,

402

00:20:55,337 --> 00:20:57,339

you know, what is a theory,

403

00:20:57,339 --> 00:20:59,841

what is critical theory or whatever?

404

00:20:59,841 --> 00:21:01,718

Yeah. And so on.

405

00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:04,304

And if you

406

00:21:04,304 --> 00:21:07,849

wanna know what critical theory is, find

somebody who has studied it extensively.

407

00:21:08,475 --> 00:21:11,144

But when we're talking about a theory

408

00:21:11,144 --> 00:21:14,147

in this sense, we're talking about.

409

00:21:15,148 --> 00:21:17,776

You know, tools to understand the world.

410

00:21:17,776 --> 00:21:20,737

It's a set of vocabulary, just like,

411

00:21:21,571 --> 00:21:24,449

you know, the theory of gravity

412

00:21:24,449 --> 00:21:27,452

gives you tools, gives you equations to

413

00:21:27,828 --> 00:21:29,621

describe the world.

414

00:21:29,621 --> 00:21:31,832

Basic Newtonian physics gives you tools

415

00:21:31,832 --> 00:21:35,294

to describe the world that work pretty

well for describing a lot of things.

416

00:21:35,502 --> 00:21:37,879

It doesn't describe the world perfectly.

417

00:21:37,879 --> 00:21:41,008

Because,

you know, you need quantum mechanics

418

00:21:41,883 --> 00:21:45,637

and general relativity and all of that

to more fully describe the world.

419

00:21:45,721 --> 00:21:50,350

But Newtonian physics was helpful still is

extremely helpful because it describes

420

00:21:51,393 --> 00:21:53,812

the world we interact with very well.

421

00:21:53,812 --> 00:21:58,483

So let's wrap that around something

like, again, critical theory.

422

00:21:59,109 --> 00:22:00,944

It's saying here's some

423

00:22:00,944 --> 00:22:04,406

it's here's some concepts, some tools

we can use to understand the world.

424

00:22:05,824 --> 00:22:08,160

Now, one

of the big reasons that Christians

425

00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,246

become suspicious of that is, well,

where are these concepts coming from?

426

00:22:12,122 --> 00:22:14,583

Are these concepts rooted in,

427

00:22:14,583 --> 00:22:17,586

you know, other beliefs that are.

428

00:22:19,755 --> 00:22:22,424

Deeply unchristian.

429

00:22:22,424 --> 00:22:24,843

And some of them are.

430

00:22:24,843 --> 00:22:26,887

But that doesn't mean that

431

00:22:26,887 --> 00:22:29,723

everything that somebody is seeing who's

432

00:22:29,723 --> 00:22:32,726

using critical theory to describe it,

433

00:22:32,893 --> 00:22:35,270

maybe it's not the best way

to describe it.

434

00:22:35,270 --> 00:22:38,231

Maybe critical theory is not the best tool

for describing this.

435

00:22:38,231 --> 00:22:41,234

It doesn't mean that the thing

they're describing doesn't exist.

436

00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:44,279

This means that maybe there's

a better way to describe it,

437

00:22:44,279 --> 00:22:46,448

and it doesn't mean that,

438

00:22:46,448 --> 00:22:49,451

you know, the term trauma is now

439

00:22:50,035 --> 00:22:53,038

not a helpful word for describing things,

440

00:22:53,538 --> 00:22:56,083

or for that matter, that diversity

or inclusion are not helpful

441

00:22:56,083 --> 00:22:57,709

words for describing things

442

00:22:57,709 --> 00:23:01,421

just because they get used

in theoretical frameworks that,

443

00:23:02,422 --> 00:23:02,923

you know, the

444

00:23:02,923 --> 00:23:05,926

framework as a whole

might be messed up, but

445

00:23:06,051 --> 00:23:08,720

I don't I don't think that means

446

00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,723

that diversity or equity or inclusion

447

00:23:12,224 --> 00:23:16,478

or trauma are words that are somehow

no longer helpful or don't help us

448

00:23:16,478 --> 00:23:18,230

see things.

449

00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:21,233

So I'm curious about something

you're talking about

450

00:23:22,984 --> 00:23:25,779

theory in this sense as a framework.

451

00:23:25,779 --> 00:23:29,866

I think that most people wouldn't

be conscious of a theory

452

00:23:29,866 --> 00:23:32,911

that they're operating with,

although I do know that some are.

453

00:23:32,911 --> 00:23:36,790

I first learned about critical theory,

in a

454

00:23:38,166 --> 00:23:41,878

introductory literary theory class,

at a university I was at at the time.

455

00:23:42,546 --> 00:23:45,715

And so I understood it

as a literary theory.

456

00:23:46,299 --> 00:23:48,051

And so I know that

457

00:23:48,051 --> 00:23:50,011

in academic study

458

00:23:50,011 --> 00:23:53,014

of literature it’s something that

459

00:23:53,348 --> 00:23:55,809

people are very conscious of.

460

00:23:55,809 --> 00:23:58,770

But outside of that context is that.

461

00:24:00,355 --> 00:24:00,981

What in what way

462

00:24:00,981 --> 00:24:03,984

do people operate with the theory?

463

00:24:04,025 --> 00:24:07,112

What way has it left

academia and entered the mainstream?

464

00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,656

And is it actually it?

Has it actually done that?

465

00:24:09,656 --> 00:24:12,159

I don't know how much it has done that.

466

00:24:12,159 --> 00:24:13,869

It has much like woke.

467

00:24:13,869 --> 00:24:17,581

And much the same time CRT Critical Race

468

00:24:17,581 --> 00:24:20,584

theory became

469

00:24:20,792 --> 00:24:23,795

a way for again.

470

00:24:24,629 --> 00:24:27,257

Basically the same set that uses woke

471

00:24:27,257 --> 00:24:31,553

as a criticism started using the term

well that CRT as a criticism.

472

00:24:32,262 --> 00:24:35,390

And there's lots of things

473

00:24:35,390 --> 00:24:39,060

that can be labeled CRT

that can be criticized.

474

00:24:40,228 --> 00:24:43,231

You know, to

what extent is the theory operating?

475

00:24:45,233 --> 00:24:46,943

I don't think that everybody

476

00:24:46,943 --> 00:24:49,946

who's using the word trauma and

477

00:24:50,572 --> 00:24:53,575

diversity is, you know,

478

00:24:54,034 --> 00:24:56,578

yeah,

they're operating out of the framework,

479

00:24:56,578 --> 00:24:59,956

out of certainly not explicitly

operating out of an articulated

480

00:25:01,041 --> 00:25:03,293

critical theory framework.

481

00:25:03,293 --> 00:25:06,296

I think one of the concerns

expressed in the comments is,

482

00:25:06,796 --> 00:25:09,799

well, the way they're talking.

483

00:25:10,634 --> 00:25:12,594

Reveals that they are

484

00:25:12,594 --> 00:25:15,347

thinking according to that

485

00:25:15,347 --> 00:25:18,058

theory, that's the articulation.

486

00:25:18,058 --> 00:25:22,270

Again, I am not familiar

enough with the details of,

487

00:25:23,605 --> 00:25:26,608

you know, forms of critical theory

or whatever.

488

00:25:27,984 --> 00:25:29,528

When I hear critical theory

489

00:25:29,528 --> 00:25:32,531

at a very general level and,

490

00:25:32,739 --> 00:25:36,201

and I'm thinking more from philosophy

than literature,

491

00:25:36,910 --> 00:25:39,913

I'm thinking.

492

00:25:40,830 --> 00:25:45,460

Of really a consciousness of,

493

00:25:47,337 --> 00:25:48,505

you know,

494

00:25:48,505 --> 00:25:51,174

looking below the surface

just a little bit.

495

00:25:51,174 --> 00:25:54,177

So critical theory.

496

00:25:55,512 --> 00:25:58,515

Likes to look at

497

00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:00,267

the statements that we make.

498

00:26:00,267 --> 00:26:03,270

We say, why we do this?

499

00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:07,482

And look at them and say, well, what's.

500

00:26:09,818 --> 00:26:12,821

You know, what's the social dynamic there?

501

00:26:13,613 --> 00:26:16,408

What's

502

00:26:16,408 --> 00:26:18,118

happening there?

503

00:26:18,118 --> 00:26:20,287

I've taken example

a little further, in the past,

504

00:26:21,913 --> 00:26:24,416

we've got the American founding documents.

505

00:26:24,416 --> 00:26:27,085

You got the Declaration of Independence,

506

00:26:27,085 --> 00:26:30,046

and you've got famous language like,

507

00:26:30,046 --> 00:26:33,049

you know, all men are created equal

and so on,

508

00:26:33,883 --> 00:26:36,845

and endowed by their creator

with certain inalienable rights.

509

00:26:37,262 --> 00:26:40,265

And then you have a constitution

that gets passed where

510

00:26:42,100 --> 00:26:44,227

what is it a slave is

511

00:26:44,227 --> 00:26:47,230

is it 2/5 of a person or 3/5 of a person?

512

00:26:47,856 --> 00:26:50,025

I forget which way

that went in the Constitution

513

00:26:50,025 --> 00:26:53,653

for the sake of determining,

you know, how much representation

514

00:26:53,653 --> 00:26:56,656

a state gets and counting the population

for political purposes?

515

00:26:57,741 --> 00:27:00,285

Well, a kind of very basic level,

516

00:27:00,285 --> 00:27:04,623

I think, of critical theory as picking up

on the difference between here's

517

00:27:04,623 --> 00:27:08,752

the stated rhetoric and here's

what got into the Constitution about

518

00:27:09,794 --> 00:27:12,547

people who were enslaved

and how they were actually treated

519

00:27:12,547 --> 00:27:14,591

in regards to being equal.

520

00:27:14,591 --> 00:27:17,469

And it things get obviously

a lot more sophisticated than that.

521

00:27:18,887 --> 00:27:21,890

And critical theory also gets kicked.

522

00:27:22,891 --> 00:27:24,309

Yeah,

523

00:27:24,309 --> 00:27:27,312

I think it does get carried away to where.

524

00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:29,356

You can get into that

525

00:27:29,356 --> 00:27:33,568

mode of operating where

that kind of suspicion that, you know,

526

00:27:33,568 --> 00:27:37,781

what's being said is not real,

that suspicion gets carried so far that

527

00:27:39,699 --> 00:27:42,702

you have a hard time

seeing sincerity anywhere.

528

00:27:42,786 --> 00:27:45,789

The hermeneutic of suspicion becomes.

529

00:27:46,373 --> 00:27:48,750

You have enough suspicion

to expose everything

530

00:27:48,750 --> 00:27:50,418

to where it seems like

there's nothing left.

531

00:27:50,418 --> 00:27:54,172

You don't recognize any goodness

or take things at face value.

532

00:27:54,964 --> 00:27:57,425

And of course, somebody who's actually

doing critical theory is probably going

533

00:27:57,425 --> 00:28:00,595

to say that I'm caricaturing them,

and I probably am,

534

00:28:01,554 --> 00:28:04,974

but I think that's what

some people are reacting to.

535

00:28:04,974 --> 00:28:07,686

And, you know, to see critical

theory is a bad thing is,

536

00:28:09,020 --> 00:28:10,647

oh, well,

you know, this is critical theory.

537

00:28:10,647 --> 00:28:12,899

This is what

538

00:28:12,899 --> 00:28:15,360

deconstructs everything, doesn't accept

539

00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:18,363

anything at face value, subverts,

540

00:28:19,489 --> 00:28:21,408

subverts authority.

541

00:28:21,408 --> 00:28:23,034

So on,

542

00:28:23,034 --> 00:28:25,620

I don't know,

I have somebody who actually studied

543

00:28:25,620 --> 00:28:28,623

literary critical theory,

which is probably where this originated.

544

00:28:28,915 --> 00:28:30,458

one junior level class.

545

00:28:30,458 --> 00:28:31,710

But anyway, get into this at the end.

546

00:28:31,710 --> 00:28:34,713

But I would have mentioned Marx, Freud,

and Nietzsche seen as the,

547

00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,717

Marx, Freud and Friedrich Nietzsche,

548

00:28:38,717 --> 00:28:43,471

Masters of suspicion,

often used in literary theory.

549

00:28:43,596 --> 00:28:46,599

And I don't know how this connects

with philosophy,

550

00:28:46,975 --> 00:28:50,603

but especially, Marx and Nietzsche,

seeing things through economic lens

551

00:28:50,603 --> 00:28:53,773

or the lens of power

and so when you're reading a text,

552

00:28:54,190 --> 00:28:57,193

you notice

it says one thing on the surface,

553

00:28:57,277 --> 00:29:00,238

but you have the suspicion that

if you look underneath, there's something

554

00:29:00,238 --> 00:29:05,452

nefarious going on in terms of power

hierarchies or economic disparities.

555

00:29:07,036 --> 00:29:07,370

It seems

556

00:29:07,370 --> 00:29:10,373

like that makes things,

much more complex.

557

00:29:11,124 --> 00:29:11,541

Right?

558

00:29:11,541 --> 00:29:14,419

And it could almost muddy

the waters a bit.

559

00:29:14,419 --> 00:29:15,754

Is that true?

560

00:29:15,754 --> 00:29:19,632

Or is that just the suspicion that people

have of this suspicion or something?

561

00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:21,676

You know what I’m saying,

562

00:29:21,676 --> 00:29:24,971

because like people

when I talk to them about like, you know,

563

00:29:24,971 --> 00:29:29,392

critical theory or CRT, it seems like

that's the counter reaction to it.

564

00:29:29,768 --> 00:29:32,520

And then they're reacting

off of each other and it just gets

565

00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,397

it just gets so shrill and out of control.

566

00:29:34,397 --> 00:29:37,400

You just you don't even know

what you're looking at anymore.

567

00:29:37,484 --> 00:29:40,069

But maybe I'm totally missed

and misreading this

568

00:29:40,069 --> 00:29:42,405

speaking from my own experience, it can.

569

00:29:42,405 --> 00:29:46,034

When one functions that way regularly,

570

00:29:47,535 --> 00:29:49,788

it can make me a bit

571

00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:52,248

less trusting,

572

00:29:52,248 --> 00:29:55,251

more mistrusting than I ideally would be.

573

00:29:55,919 --> 00:29:58,922

It can also sap some of the enjoyment

574

00:29:59,297 --> 00:30:02,550

of engagement,

in my case of art and literature,

575

00:30:03,259 --> 00:30:06,721

if you're always looking under the surface

and suspecting that there's something

576

00:30:07,764 --> 00:30:10,725

pernicious going on.

577

00:30:11,643 --> 00:30:12,310

Yeah.

578

00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:15,313

And so

maybe when people throw these labels out

579

00:30:15,939 --> 00:30:19,108

as a derogatory thing

of like your woke or critical theory

580

00:30:19,108 --> 00:30:23,363

or this or that, it's, reacting to what

you just described, potentially.

581

00:30:23,488 --> 00:30:26,574

Is that perhaps what's going on here?

582

00:30:26,574 --> 00:30:28,952

I don't know enough of

this is so confusing

583

00:30:28,952 --> 00:30:31,955

that it's kind of hard to know

where all this even begins.

584

00:30:32,580 --> 00:30:36,543

You know, like CRT,

especially a year or two ago.

585

00:30:36,543 --> 00:30:39,546

I would see yard signs

where people say no CRT.

586

00:30:39,712 --> 00:30:41,714

And I was never quite sure when

587

00:30:43,007 --> 00:30:46,052

in mainstream popular conversations

when terms are used like that,

588

00:30:46,970 --> 00:30:49,264

I'm not exactly sure what it does

589

00:30:49,264 --> 00:30:52,350

or does not have to do with the way

the term is used academically.

590

00:30:52,976 --> 00:30:55,061

I haven't sorted that out.

591

00:30:55,061 --> 00:30:56,604

Well, I mean, yeah, because now.

592

00:30:56,604 --> 00:30:59,065

And another one that's really it.

593

00:30:59,065 --> 00:31:00,984

At least that again,

this is my own personal experience

594

00:31:00,984 --> 00:31:03,987

that I'm seeing hit the mainstream

a lot more

595

00:31:04,571 --> 00:31:06,406

and is becoming more derogatory is DEI.

596

00:31:06,406 --> 00:31:10,451

Like I remember not that long ago

that was just kind of whatever

597

00:31:10,577 --> 00:31:14,956

wasn't necessarily used derogatorily,

but now it feels like

598

00:31:14,956 --> 00:31:17,417

I'm seeing that a lot more.

Oh, that's DEI.

599

00:31:17,417 --> 00:31:21,671

So diversity, equity and inclusion,

what those letters stand for

600

00:31:21,754 --> 00:31:23,798

and now is being used as like

this is really negative thing.

601

00:31:23,798 --> 00:31:27,552

And it's suddenly it feels like

the conversation is getting very confusing

602

00:31:27,552 --> 00:31:30,555

because it's that term is being thrown

around for so many different things.

603

00:31:30,763 --> 00:31:32,807

It's like, whoa, I'm

not really sure what we're talking about.

604

00:31:32,807 --> 00:31:34,392

Well, I mean, it was in

one of the comments here,

605

00:31:34,392 --> 00:31:38,354

someone's claiming, oh, this is a Marxist,

DEI categories that are being used.

606

00:31:38,438 --> 00:31:42,108

I'm like, okay, I'm

not quite sure what they're talking about

607

00:31:42,108 --> 00:31:44,861

because I don't even know

what those letters mean anymore.

608

00:31:46,237 --> 00:31:48,072

That's

just a, I guess, more of a present day

609

00:31:48,072 --> 00:31:51,618

thing that I've noticed, and I'm not quite

sure what to do with that actually.

610

00:31:51,951 --> 00:31:55,121

So yeah, diversity, equity and inclusion,

that was definitely

611

00:31:55,121 --> 00:31:56,080

something was embraced.

612

00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,666

That was a name of a, you know,

613

00:31:58,666 --> 00:32:01,169

universities have an office with that name

614

00:32:01,169 --> 00:32:04,172

and that kind of thing.

615

00:32:05,173 --> 00:32:06,382

So as a Christian

616

00:32:06,382 --> 00:32:10,887

with a Christian sexual ethic

and a Christian,

617

00:32:12,555 --> 00:32:15,058

sense of,

618

00:32:15,058 --> 00:32:19,228

you know, our biological sex

is something that God gives to us. And,

619

00:32:20,563 --> 00:32:22,273

you know, we need to make peace with that.

620

00:32:22,273 --> 00:32:26,235

And of course, acknowledging

all complexities that can go with,

621

00:32:27,028 --> 00:32:30,031

with, gender identity and so on. But

622

00:32:30,823 --> 00:32:33,826

we need to make peace with God created

us, male and female.

623

00:32:35,203 --> 00:32:35,536

Yeah.

624

00:32:35,536 --> 00:32:39,040

There were things in there

under diversity, equity and inclusion that

625

00:32:40,750 --> 00:32:42,043

are not good.

626

00:32:42,043 --> 00:32:44,462

And specifically,

627

00:32:44,462 --> 00:32:47,465

you know, a promotion of,

628

00:32:47,882 --> 00:32:50,593

you know, same sex relationships

629

00:32:50,593 --> 00:32:53,596

as good.

630

00:32:53,763 --> 00:32:55,390

You know, pushes

631

00:32:55,390 --> 00:32:58,393

to get people

to put your pronouns in your email.

632

00:32:59,102 --> 00:32:59,477

Yeah.

633

00:32:59,477 --> 00:33:02,897

You know, the sign of,

you know, freely adopting pronouns.

634

00:33:02,897 --> 00:33:04,816

And so on.

635

00:33:04,816 --> 00:33:07,443

And no, I didn't find those helpful.

636

00:33:07,443 --> 00:33:07,610

You know,

637

00:33:07,610 --> 00:33:11,114

fortunately context where I were

that was not something that was enforced.

638

00:33:11,114 --> 00:33:14,075

So nobody was coming after me and saying,

hey, you need to add the pronouns.

639

00:33:14,075 --> 00:33:18,162

I mean, there were, you know, an email

might at the beginning of the semester

640

00:33:18,162 --> 00:33:21,874

or whatever might encourage it,

but it's not like anybody was policing it.

641

00:33:22,333 --> 00:33:25,336

that part under DEI

642

00:33:26,546 --> 00:33:29,841

was definitely pushing against things

that are against

643

00:33:31,384 --> 00:33:33,803

the Christian understanding of

644

00:33:33,803 --> 00:33:34,804

how God made people.

645

00:33:36,097 --> 00:33:39,100

That is very true.

646

00:33:40,018 --> 00:33:41,644

But what I'm feeling

647

00:33:41,644 --> 00:33:44,689

where I started to see the DEI,

where I started picking up on it

648

00:33:44,689 --> 00:33:47,859

as a negative term, it was the implication

649

00:33:47,859 --> 00:33:50,862

that, oh.

650

00:33:51,904 --> 00:33:54,032

You're hiring people

just because you need to meet a quota.

651

00:33:54,032 --> 00:33:57,118

You're hiring people that aren't qualified

because you need to meet a quota of,

652

00:33:58,578 --> 00:34:00,371

a certain percentage of women or a certain

653

00:34:00,371 --> 00:34:03,374

percentage based on

654

00:34:03,374 --> 00:34:06,044

race or ethnicity or whatever.

655

00:34:06,044 --> 00:34:10,298

And, you know, the accusation was,

you know,

656

00:34:10,298 --> 00:34:13,301

this is distorting all kinds of stuff

because hiring is happening

657

00:34:14,927 --> 00:34:17,972

based on representation and not on

658

00:34:19,682 --> 00:34:22,685

qualifications or something like that.

659

00:34:22,894 --> 00:34:25,813

So in some ways that was a continuation,

or maybe an intensification

660

00:34:25,813 --> 00:34:30,485

of the whole fight over affirmative action

that goes back,

661

00:34:30,485 --> 00:34:34,655

you know, much further in this country,

like it's been debated in a lot of ways.

662

00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:36,491

So these

663

00:34:36,491 --> 00:34:39,452

are some of the criticisms

that people have leveled.

664

00:34:39,535 --> 00:34:42,872

And and to be fair

it's not just an enormous amount

665

00:34:42,872 --> 00:34:45,708

of these comments that we get,

but it was enough that hey let's,

666

00:34:45,708 --> 00:34:47,835

let's talk about it on this podcast.

667

00:34:47,835 --> 00:34:50,546

Yes. And I jump in on that, you know,

668

00:34:50,546 --> 00:34:53,549

those episodes.

669

00:34:54,008 --> 00:34:56,385

The amount of people

who just found those very helpful

670

00:34:56,385 --> 00:35:00,181

in processing it, you know, even like,

you know, the trauma informed churches.

671

00:35:01,057 --> 00:35:04,685

So I saw people saying, oh, this is using

wrong categories and it's not helpful.

672

00:35:06,145 --> 00:35:09,148

But I was also very keenly aware of,

673

00:35:10,525 --> 00:35:13,528

you know, a brother who

674

00:35:13,653 --> 00:35:16,656

had a difficult journey in life and

675

00:35:16,906 --> 00:35:20,493

also did his part

to make the journey difficult and so on.

676

00:35:20,493 --> 00:35:24,330

And, you know, somebody,

somebody who's really growing in the Lord.

677

00:35:25,748 --> 00:35:28,751

Clear testimony,

678

00:35:29,794 --> 00:35:31,796

everything.

679

00:35:31,796 --> 00:35:34,799

And, you know, he makes the comments like,

680

00:35:34,882 --> 00:35:38,761

okay, this describes

what my life is like, like

681

00:35:38,761 --> 00:35:42,140

you should listen to this

so that you know what it's like for me.

682

00:35:42,140 --> 00:35:45,143

And so, okay,

683

00:35:45,184 --> 00:35:47,854

like this is credibility

because I know that this is a person

684

00:35:47,854 --> 00:35:52,150

whose life has been turned around

and is growing in the Lord,

685

00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:55,111

and he's saying,

yeah, this is enormously helpful.

686

00:35:56,654 --> 00:35:56,904

Yeah.

687

00:35:56,904 --> 00:36:00,533

I think that is important context

because it seems like

688

00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,286

back to something I've said before.

689

00:36:03,286 --> 00:36:06,956

You know these terms are thrown around

so much it's kind of hard to know

690

00:36:06,956 --> 00:36:08,374

if they mean much anymore.

691

00:36:08,374 --> 00:36:11,460

And these we're talking about episodes,

you know, one on education.

692

00:36:11,460 --> 00:36:14,088

You know that's a very politically charged

right now.

693

00:36:14,088 --> 00:36:15,965

You know, trauma informed churches

694

00:36:15,965 --> 00:36:20,803

the one on, indigenous lands

in Pennsylvania becoming Mennonite farms.

695

00:36:20,803 --> 00:36:24,891

But, all of these things,

about wouldn't matter what you said,

696

00:36:25,099 --> 00:36:26,601

someone's probably going to label it,

697

00:36:26,601 --> 00:36:28,769

put one of these labels

on it just because those are

698

00:36:29,896 --> 00:36:31,814

lightning rods for these types of things.

699

00:36:31,814 --> 00:36:34,817

And that's a good point

you raised, because the,

700

00:36:35,359 --> 00:36:38,362

the one here that had the comment

this is Marxist DEI categories.

701

00:36:38,446 --> 00:36:41,282

The person says, you know,

it was also the one episode I,

702

00:36:41,282 --> 00:36:43,993

I at least personally had more people

reach out to me and say,

703

00:36:43,993 --> 00:36:47,705

that was so helpful than I think

anything we've published,

704

00:36:48,247 --> 00:36:49,790

which was really encouraging to me

to be like,

705

00:36:49,790 --> 00:36:51,709

okay,

we got maybe a few comments like that,

706

00:36:51,709 --> 00:36:54,712

but it was helpful to a lot of people,

and that's encouraging.

707

00:36:54,879 --> 00:36:57,298

And I got similar comments

on that episode.

708

00:36:57,298 --> 00:36:58,466

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

709

00:36:58,466 --> 00:37:00,134

And so

710

00:37:00,134 --> 00:37:04,805

So as we think about these buzzwords

that we've been using in this episode

711

00:37:04,805 --> 00:37:08,017

so far, what are ways,

712

00:37:08,226 --> 00:37:11,395

or maybe examples,

you all could give of how

713

00:37:11,979 --> 00:37:16,108

we as followers of Christ can engage

well, respond

714

00:37:16,108 --> 00:37:21,405

well to these types of conversations

or in some cases, perhaps accusations.

715

00:37:23,741 --> 00:37:25,618

How do we walk this?

716

00:37:25,618 --> 00:37:28,788

So this is not about the accusations.

717

00:37:29,330 --> 00:37:31,540

But it's about some of these issues.

718

00:37:31,540 --> 00:37:34,543

So like I mentioned that one of the,

719

00:37:35,169 --> 00:37:38,965

one of the things that gets labeled

woke is when you have one,

720

00:37:38,965 --> 00:37:41,968

it seems like there's the sense of guilt

or responsibility for,

721

00:37:43,135 --> 00:37:46,097

you know, things your predecessors did

722

00:37:46,555 --> 00:37:48,975

a number of years ago or whatever.

723

00:37:48,975 --> 00:37:51,978

But, you know,

we do have to reckon with the past,

724

00:37:52,353 --> 00:37:53,521

in some way.

725

00:37:53,521 --> 00:37:56,607

And so the one example that I came

across recently,

726

00:37:57,483 --> 00:38:01,362

came from a Lutheran church,

727

00:38:01,946 --> 00:38:05,157

the Lutheran World Federation,

728

00:38:07,285 --> 00:38:10,288

And, you know,

for a little bit of context,

729

00:38:11,747 --> 00:38:14,750

you know, Lutherans and Anabaptists,

730

00:38:14,834 --> 00:38:17,795

emerged in Europe at the same time.

731

00:38:18,587 --> 00:38:21,590

Luther was not particularly

fond of Anabaptists.

732

00:38:21,716 --> 00:38:25,011

There were a lot of

things that happened there.

733

00:38:26,470 --> 00:38:28,097

Carry that forward.

734

00:38:28,097 --> 00:38:28,764

Right.

735

00:38:28,764 --> 00:38:31,600

We still have Lutherans and Anabaptists.

736

00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,146

And so in the early 2000s,

737

00:38:36,272 --> 00:38:39,275

there was a Lutheran group

and a Mennonite group

738

00:38:39,317 --> 00:38:42,320

that worked through that history together

and produced a joint,

739

00:38:42,528 --> 00:38:45,531

a joint description of the history, like,

740

00:38:45,531 --> 00:38:49,493

let's, let's state this in a way

that we can both say,

741

00:38:49,493 --> 00:38:52,496

yeah, this is an accurate description

of what happened.

742

00:38:52,913 --> 00:38:55,875

And then out of that,

743

00:38:55,875 --> 00:38:59,420

the Lutheran World Federation,

so representing a number of Lutheran

744

00:38:59,420 --> 00:39:04,342

churches, ended up,

you know, writing and adopting a statement

745

00:39:04,675 --> 00:39:07,678

and that was presented,

which was a kind of statement of

746

00:39:08,596 --> 00:39:10,723

repentance.

747

00:39:10,723 --> 00:39:13,726

And, you know, for me, as an Anabaptist.

748

00:39:13,976 --> 00:39:15,394

Well, I didn't know about this.

749

00:39:15,394 --> 00:39:19,940

I wasn't involved, you know,

with the groups that were in dialog, but.

750

00:39:22,985 --> 00:39:24,904

I do find it meaningful.

751

00:39:24,904 --> 00:39:28,199

So I'd like to read that statement

if I could, and a little bit,

752

00:39:28,866 --> 00:39:31,869

from the Mennonite response

or part of the statement.

753

00:39:32,328 --> 00:39:35,122

So it was titled action on the Legacy

754

00:39:35,122 --> 00:39:38,125

of Lutheran Persecution of Anabaptists,

755

00:39:38,709 --> 00:39:43,005

and begins when Lutherans today

realize the history of Lutheran Anabaptist

756

00:39:43,005 --> 00:39:48,302

relationships in the 16th century

and beyond, as it is presented

757

00:39:48,302 --> 00:39:51,305

in the report of the Lutheran Mennonite

International Study Commission.

758

00:39:52,348 --> 00:39:55,434

They are filled

with a deep sense of regret and pain

759

00:39:55,434 --> 00:39:58,437

over the persecution of Anabaptists

by Lutheran authorities,

760

00:39:58,854 --> 00:40:01,857

and especially over the fact

that the Lutheran reformers

761

00:40:02,316 --> 00:40:05,319

theologically supported this persecution.

762

00:40:06,695 --> 00:40:09,698

Thus, the Lutheran World Federation,

763

00:40:09,698 --> 00:40:11,617

a communion of churches, wishes to express

764

00:40:11,617 --> 00:40:14,620

publicly its deep regret and sorrow,

765

00:40:14,745 --> 00:40:18,165

trusting in God, who in Jesus Christ

was reconciling the world to himself,

766

00:40:18,165 --> 00:40:20,209

we asked for forgiveness from God

767

00:40:20,209 --> 00:40:22,461

and from our Mennonite sisters

and brothers for the harm

768

00:40:22,461 --> 00:40:25,464

that our forebears in the 16th century

committed to an Anabaptists

769

00:40:25,965 --> 00:40:29,301

for forgetting or ignoring this

persecution in the intervening centuries,

770

00:40:30,594 --> 00:40:32,596

and for all inappropriate, misleading

771

00:40:32,596 --> 00:40:36,100

and hurtful portraits of Anabaptists

and Mennonites made by Lutheran authors

772

00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,603

in both popular

and scholarly forms to the present day,

773

00:40:40,813 --> 00:40:42,940

we pray that

God may grant to our communities

774

00:40:42,940 --> 00:40:45,943

a healing of our memories

and reconciliation.

775

00:40:46,610 --> 00:40:49,155

And it goes on with some commitments.

776

00:40:49,155 --> 00:40:51,699

As I think about it,

777

00:40:51,699 --> 00:40:54,034

they acknowledge things they said

778

00:40:54,034 --> 00:40:56,370

this was wrong.

779

00:40:56,370 --> 00:40:57,079

We regret it.

780

00:40:57,079 --> 00:41:00,875

We're saying something to people

who are descendants of these Anabaptists.

781

00:41:03,043 --> 00:41:04,795

We want a healing of our memories

782

00:41:04,795 --> 00:41:07,798

and reconciliation.

783

00:41:08,215 --> 00:41:11,218

I find that meaningful.

784

00:41:12,178 --> 00:41:15,431

That strikes me as the kind of thing

that could easily be labeled as woke.

785

00:41:15,431 --> 00:41:18,767

Because, you know,

why are they apologizing for what somebody

786

00:41:18,767 --> 00:41:21,770

did 400 years ago and

787

00:41:21,770 --> 00:41:25,524

are they dishonoring

their past and all of that?

788

00:41:26,525 --> 00:41:27,109

And I don't see

789

00:41:27,109 --> 00:41:30,070

it that I see it as a straightforward

acknowledgment

790

00:41:30,821 --> 00:41:33,282

and, you know,

791

00:41:33,282 --> 00:41:36,285

they didn't say, well,

we can't call ourselves Lutherans anymore.

792

00:41:37,161 --> 00:41:40,039

And the statement goes on to mention,

you know, there are remaining

793

00:41:40,039 --> 00:41:41,665

significant differences between men.

794

00:41:41,665 --> 00:41:44,668

There are remaining, you know,

significant disagreements and so on.

795

00:41:45,252 --> 00:41:48,255

But yeah, I found it

796

00:41:48,339 --> 00:41:49,215

deeply meaningful.

797

00:41:49,215 --> 00:41:52,301

And I think it's just a good example of it

798

00:41:52,301 --> 00:41:55,304

dealing with that.

799

00:41:55,554 --> 00:41:58,557

And then just a little bit,

Mennonite World Conference,

800

00:41:59,767 --> 00:42:03,103

you know, presented a letter in response

801

00:42:03,562 --> 00:42:06,148

and just a couple snippets from that,

802

00:42:06,148 --> 00:42:09,151

Are we worthy to receive your request?

803

00:42:09,568 --> 00:42:12,154

We are painfully aware

of our own inadequacy.

804

00:42:12,154 --> 00:42:15,241

We cannot bring ourselves to this table

with held heads held high.

805

00:42:15,783 --> 00:42:18,953

We could only come bowed down in great

humility and in the fear of the Lord.

806

00:42:20,162 --> 00:42:23,040

We cannot come to this point and fail

to see our own sinfulness.

807

00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:24,542

We can't come to this point

without recognize

808

00:42:24,542 --> 00:42:27,545

our own need

for God's grace and forgiveness.

809

00:42:27,545 --> 00:42:30,548

And they go on to some specific responses.

810

00:42:30,631 --> 00:42:32,800

And then a commitment,

811

00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,970

that is striking and a commitment that,

812

00:42:37,930 --> 00:42:40,224

I want to adopt personally,

813

00:42:40,224 --> 00:42:44,228

and I hope it's the way, you know,

Anabaptist perspectives functions.

814

00:42:45,396 --> 00:42:47,940

That Mennonite letter said,

we commit ourselves

815

00:42:47,940 --> 00:42:51,485

to take care that your initiative

for reconciliation is known and honored

816

00:42:52,027 --> 00:42:55,030

in Anabaptist Mennonite

teaching about Lutherans.

817

00:42:55,990 --> 00:42:58,993

Because it's to me, it is profoundly.

818

00:42:59,702 --> 00:43:02,079

Yeah. The apology has an effect.

819

00:43:02,079 --> 00:43:04,582

It produces an obligation in me.

820

00:43:04,582 --> 00:43:08,711

You know, we talk about Luther

and outrageous things.

821

00:43:08,711 --> 00:43:10,588

He said.

822

00:43:10,588 --> 00:43:13,632

And yes, we have remaining

823

00:43:14,216 --> 00:43:17,428

theological differences with Lutherans,

but the fact that a statement

824

00:43:17,428 --> 00:43:18,345

like this was made.

825

00:43:19,805 --> 00:43:21,390

It actually

826

00:43:21,390 --> 00:43:24,393

not only is it healing, it

creates a sense of responsibility like,

827

00:43:24,852 --> 00:43:26,645

oh, we can't go around talking about,

828

00:43:26,645 --> 00:43:29,648

oh, those Lutherans,

they persecuted us without

829

00:43:29,732 --> 00:43:33,527

knowing and honoring, like,

you know, the Lutheran World Federation,

830

00:43:33,527 --> 00:43:38,699

representing a large group of Lutherans

has said, yeah, like that was wrong.

831

00:43:38,699 --> 00:43:40,951

And we're sorry about that.

832

00:43:40,951 --> 00:43:43,579

And that creates an obligation for us.

833

00:43:43,579 --> 00:43:47,291

So I bring this in here because, you know,

I fear that.

834

00:43:48,542 --> 00:43:49,877

anti-woke ism.

835

00:43:49,877 --> 00:43:53,547

If we can once again

make something general,

836

00:43:54,965 --> 00:43:56,925

it's going to

837

00:43:56,925 --> 00:43:59,803

I fear that that attitude, you know,

labeling things woke and labeling

838

00:43:59,803 --> 00:44:02,806

this kind of consciousness,

awareness of these things as woke

839

00:44:03,807 --> 00:44:06,935

is just going to make it harder

to do these kinds of,

840

00:44:08,395 --> 00:44:09,813

I think, yeah, important

841

00:44:10,939 --> 00:44:13,942

reconciling work.

842

00:44:14,026 --> 00:44:17,112

So, Jaran, as we think of ways

843

00:44:17,112 --> 00:44:20,282

to respond to these types of things

as Christians.

844

00:44:20,699 --> 00:44:21,575

Yeah.

845

00:44:21,575 --> 00:44:25,329

What would you like to add on on this

or examples you would like to give?

846

00:44:25,412 --> 00:44:30,584

Well, first, I think that the exchange

that Marlin read to us is very beautiful.

847

00:44:30,584 --> 00:44:34,421

And I really appreciate the exhortation.

848

00:44:34,922 --> 00:44:37,716

To not being intimidated

849

00:44:37,716 --> 00:44:42,012

by the labels that may be put upon us

when there's a genuine opportunity

850

00:44:42,012 --> 00:44:45,057

for reconciliation, truth

and acknowledgment

851

00:44:45,140 --> 00:44:48,811

such as happened in the conversation

between the Lutherans and the Mennonites.

852

00:44:50,104 --> 00:44:52,981

I think that

and I already alluded to this,

853

00:44:52,981 --> 00:44:55,984

but I do think that those labels can

854

00:44:56,193 --> 00:44:58,862

drive us towards,

855

00:44:58,862 --> 00:45:02,032

you know, a political or tribal

consciousness

856

00:45:02,825 --> 00:45:05,035

that the gospel doesn't have place for.

857

00:45:06,286 --> 00:45:08,038

So that's my addition would

858

00:45:08,038 --> 00:45:11,583

addition would be let's let's avoid

859

00:45:12,042 --> 00:45:14,920

the tribal identities,

860

00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,424

the partizanship,

and let's follow the way of Jesus.

861

00:45:19,007 --> 00:45:22,970

And what that calls us to,

which in many cases is,

862

00:45:24,471 --> 00:45:27,433

charity, reconciliation

863

00:45:27,433 --> 00:45:30,394

and forgiveness.

864

00:45:30,894 --> 00:45:33,856

So we've covered a lot of

865

00:45:33,856 --> 00:45:35,441

pieces in this podcast

866

00:45:35,441 --> 00:45:38,610

and I'm curious

to hear people's feedback on this.

867

00:45:38,610 --> 00:45:40,654

But as we

868

00:45:40,654 --> 00:45:44,408

wrap this kind of complicated,

a bit messy,

869

00:45:44,658 --> 00:45:48,495

perhaps confusing topic

and bring it down to earth,

870

00:45:48,662 --> 00:45:52,374

is there any thing you would like to say

in closing for this episode?

871

00:45:52,416 --> 00:45:54,585

Either of you?

872

00:45:54,585 --> 00:45:57,588

I think it's really important that

873

00:45:58,505 --> 00:46:00,632

we're not intimidated by labels.

874

00:46:00,632 --> 00:46:03,343

And just to recognize

875

00:46:03,343 --> 00:46:06,346

we may get labels for various things.

876

00:46:06,555 --> 00:46:07,681

You know, let's be discreet.

877

00:46:07,681 --> 00:46:10,684

Let's not be.

878

00:46:11,143 --> 00:46:14,438

Let's not be provocative

purely for the sake of being provocative.

879

00:46:15,773 --> 00:46:17,775

Maybe let's not be provocative unless,

880

00:46:17,775 --> 00:46:20,527

you know, we need to get somebody to think

about a particular point.

881

00:46:20,527 --> 00:46:24,448

But we’ew going to get labeled,

and we need to be aware of that.

882

00:46:25,532 --> 00:46:27,618

And we may get labeled from,

883

00:46:27,618 --> 00:46:30,412

you know, left or right or top

884

00:46:30,412 --> 00:46:34,833

or bottom or whatever

the political categories are. And,

885

00:46:36,794 --> 00:46:39,755

you know, we can't hide from that.

886

00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,884

So we may get labeled as

887

00:46:45,302 --> 00:46:46,678

homophobic.

888

00:46:46,678 --> 00:46:49,681

And if we're labeled as homophobic,

889

00:46:49,681 --> 00:46:52,684

simply because we have

890

00:46:53,727 --> 00:46:55,687

stood for,

891

00:46:55,687 --> 00:46:59,483

you know, sexuality within marriage

as one man and one woman.

892

00:47:00,734 --> 00:47:04,238

Then we can't be

can't be scared of that label.

893

00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,783

Similarly, if it's simply

894

00:47:07,783 --> 00:47:10,786

because of speaking about,

895

00:47:11,411 --> 00:47:14,414

you know, God's gift of sexuality and,

896

00:47:15,249 --> 00:47:18,585

you know, embracing

and embracing our biological sex.

897

00:47:19,795 --> 00:47:22,506

And it's not done in,

898

00:47:22,506 --> 00:47:26,134

you know, insensitive or unhelpful ways,

but it's, you know,

899

00:47:26,134 --> 00:47:29,304

if we're labeled that for standing up

for Scripture, we need to accept that.

900

00:47:30,472 --> 00:47:33,517

And in the same way.

901

00:47:36,311 --> 00:47:39,398

If we're labeled as woke for.

902

00:47:41,650 --> 00:47:45,487

You know how we talk about wrongs done by

903

00:47:46,655 --> 00:47:48,824

the United States government

904

00:47:48,824 --> 00:47:52,828

or how we tell history,

not just from the winners perspective,

905

00:47:52,828 --> 00:47:56,123

but from the losers perspective,

so to speak.

906

00:47:59,626 --> 00:48:01,295

You know, for labeled as woke for that.

907

00:48:01,295 --> 00:48:03,797

I think we need to accept that, like,

this work we need to do.

908

00:48:03,797 --> 00:48:06,800

And, you know, I think about it

909

00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,303

in our relation education curriculum,

910

00:48:09,303 --> 00:48:12,306

how do we talk about things,

how do we tell the stories of history?

911

00:48:13,307 --> 00:48:15,976

And I I think if we tell them

honestly and in ways that

912

00:48:17,060 --> 00:48:20,063

honor God's kingdom.

913

00:48:20,188 --> 00:48:21,273

Yeah,

914

00:48:21,273 --> 00:48:24,276

I think we're going to get caught

in the anti-woke waves.

915

00:48:24,484 --> 00:48:27,779

And I think we have to accept that

not by provoking it,

916

00:48:27,779 --> 00:48:30,782

but we can't be scared of that.

917

00:48:32,951 --> 00:48:34,912

There's a lot to think about

in this episode.

918

00:48:34,912 --> 00:48:35,996

Yeah.

919

00:48:35,996 --> 00:48:39,458

Just thank you, both of you, for being

willing to come on and engage with these

920

00:48:40,167 --> 00:48:44,546

questions that we've or comments

that we've received from listeners.

921

00:48:44,546 --> 00:48:46,173

And I encourage people listening to this.

922

00:48:46,173 --> 00:48:50,218

If you have thoughts, feel free

to leave us a comment or, contact us.

923

00:48:50,552 --> 00:48:53,555

But I think you've ended us

with an important piece there Marlin.

924

00:48:54,097 --> 00:48:56,725

Follow what Scripture teaches.

925

00:48:56,725 --> 00:48:59,937

Follow Christ,

and don't worry about the labels too much.

926

00:49:00,145 --> 00:49:02,689

I think that's some pretty important

advice, too.

927

00:49:02,689 --> 00:49:05,859

And,

and and leave with our, our listeners.

928

00:49:05,859 --> 00:49:07,027

So thank you both for sharing.

929

00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:08,737

Thanks

930

00:49:08,737 --> 00:49:11,782

for listening to this episode

of Anabaptist Perspectives.

931

00:49:11,823 --> 00:49:12,950

If you found this interesting,

932

00:49:12,950 --> 00:49:15,953

you may want to check out the episode

we did with Ruth Anna Kuhnz.

933

00:49:15,953 --> 00:49:18,789

We referred to it

several times throughout this episode,

934

00:49:18,789 --> 00:49:21,917

and you can find that linked

in the description down below.

935

00:49:22,209 --> 00:49:24,920

Thanks again for watching,

and we'll catch you in the next episode.