1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:02,780 (Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) This is the first innovative pushchair brand in 2 00:00:02,780 --> 00:00:06,340 20 years, the first new brand of pushchair 3 00:00:06,340 --> 00:00:07,280 that we're going to stop. 4 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:09,880 I think we spent £126,000 with a 5 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:14,040 branding company and it just bombs. 6 00:00:14,620 --> 00:00:17,040 Phil Staunton has spent 20 years in physical 7 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:17,880 product development. 8 00:00:18,820 --> 00:00:21,760 He built D2M product design from a back 9 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,340 bedroom into one of the UK's most active 10 00:00:24,340 --> 00:00:25,880 product design consultancies. 11 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,080 Over 1,600 projects shipped. 12 00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:32,660 He also made his own hardware product, raised 13 00:00:32,660 --> 00:00:35,040 three quarters of a million pounds, got it 14 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:37,160 into John Lewis and had the head buyer 15 00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:39,540 tell him it was the first innovative new 16 00:00:39,540 --> 00:00:41,720 pushchair brand in 20 years. 17 00:00:43,300 --> 00:00:46,020 Phil's pushchair had more engineered features than anything 18 00:00:46,020 --> 00:00:47,080 else in John Lewis. 19 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,340 His bill of materials was double what Bugaloo 20 00:00:50,340 --> 00:00:50,920 was spending. 21 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:53,180 He got it into 11 stores. 22 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:55,800 He had buyers across Europe in the room. 23 00:00:56,500 --> 00:00:58,100 And between his first batch and his second, 24 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,620 he made 42 engineering changes. 25 00:01:01,500 --> 00:01:03,879 Our first batch of products, we made 400 26 00:01:03,879 --> 00:01:04,640 units. 27 00:01:05,340 --> 00:01:07,920 We then made 42 changes before we ordered 28 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:08,940 our second batch of products. 29 00:01:09,100 --> 00:01:10,440 We had to order it really quickly because 30 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:12,220 of the John Lewis stocking requirements and whatever 31 00:01:12,220 --> 00:01:12,540 else. 32 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:14,840 I don't believe that any one of those 33 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:16,920 42 changes any of our customers noticed. 34 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:19,280 And then we get to part the story 35 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,900 that Phil says has an easy answer and 36 00:01:21,900 --> 00:01:22,800 a harder one. 37 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:24,620 Yeah, it's an easy answer and there's a 38 00:01:24,620 --> 00:01:25,120 harder answer. 39 00:01:25,380 --> 00:01:28,320 This episode is about the gap between design 40 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:32,300 excellence and commercial reality, about what happens when 41 00:01:32,300 --> 00:01:35,380 a product earns the best possible validation from 42 00:01:35,380 --> 00:01:38,100 the market and still runs into the hardest 43 00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:39,080 possible truth. 44 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,480 We put all this design effort in. 45 00:01:41,580 --> 00:01:42,840 We had all these patented features. 46 00:01:43,580 --> 00:01:46,100 And customers genuinely would just buy product because 47 00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:48,240 of the color or who they'd seen pushing 48 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,320 it because their neighbor had one or whatever 49 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:51,660 else. 50 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:53,400 And as a product designer, that was just 51 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:54,380 devastating. 52 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:56,740 This is Why Design. 53 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:03,320 Phil Staunton, welcome to Why Design. 54 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:04,860 Thanks for being on the show. 55 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:06,460 No problem at all. 56 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:07,620 Pleasure to be here, Chris. 57 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:09,180 Thanks for having me. 58 00:02:09,259 --> 00:02:11,160 We've been talking about this for some time 59 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:11,400 now. 60 00:02:11,500 --> 00:02:14,580 And we've finally, it seems like months and 61 00:02:14,580 --> 00:02:16,040 months later, here we are. 62 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:17,800 It's nearly a year since we first said 63 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:18,980 we should do this. 64 00:02:20,020 --> 00:02:23,860 Yeah, it has been a year like that, 65 00:02:24,300 --> 00:02:24,400 though. 66 00:02:25,620 --> 00:02:28,100 So it's finally great to take it down. 67 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:29,260 I'm stood up today for a change. 68 00:02:29,460 --> 00:02:31,100 But let's dive in, shall we? 69 00:02:31,260 --> 00:02:33,400 So Phil, you've spent the last 20 years 70 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:34,800 or so in physical product development. 71 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,380 You've built and grown D2M into one of 72 00:02:39,380 --> 00:02:42,820 the UK's best known product design consultancies, shipping 73 00:02:42,820 --> 00:02:45,520 over 1,600 projects. 74 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:49,020 And you've built your own hardware brands that 75 00:02:49,020 --> 00:02:50,040 landed in John Lewis. 76 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,080 But before we dive into your background in 77 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,340 too much detail, let's go back to a 78 00:02:56,340 --> 00:02:57,960 moment where everything shifted. 79 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,940 You're standing in John Lewis, Oxford Street, with 80 00:03:01,940 --> 00:03:03,760 your pushchair brand on the shop floor. 81 00:03:04,340 --> 00:03:07,400 What's the exact moment you realized you've actually 82 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:08,120 pulled this off? 83 00:03:10,140 --> 00:03:13,640 Yeah, I think the exact moment was probably 84 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:16,160 about two months before that, when we sat 85 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,920 in Victoria at John Lewis headquarters with the 86 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:21,880 head buyer for Nursery, one of her team, 87 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:23,680 and she was like, yeah, this is the 88 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,420 first innovative pushchair brand in 20 years, the 89 00:03:27,420 --> 00:03:30,200 first new brand of pushchair that we're going 90 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:30,640 to stock. 91 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,220 And we're excited to do so. 92 00:03:33,380 --> 00:03:34,780 We want to build that launch campaign with 93 00:03:34,780 --> 00:03:34,980 you. 94 00:03:35,100 --> 00:03:36,500 We want to do a big rooftop party 95 00:03:36,500 --> 00:03:39,900 on Oxford Street stores, part of the launch 96 00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:40,560 and everything else. 97 00:03:40,740 --> 00:03:42,360 And I think coming out of that meeting 98 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,460 with my team was just like, oh my 99 00:03:45,460 --> 00:03:47,200 goodness, we've actually landed this. 100 00:03:47,300 --> 00:03:48,600 And this doesn't happen. 101 00:03:49,020 --> 00:03:50,740 New brands do not get into John Lewis. 102 00:03:51,300 --> 00:03:54,480 New brands and pushchairs definitely don't get in. 103 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,280 So, yeah, we were over the moon. 104 00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:59,540 And I really couldn't believe it at that 105 00:03:59,540 --> 00:04:00,260 point at all. 106 00:04:01,260 --> 00:04:05,300 What made you decide to innovate in pushchairs 107 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:05,620 then? 108 00:04:06,860 --> 00:04:09,800 And how many other brands did you have 109 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,880 to pitch before John Lewis said yes? 110 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,019 I was for good questions in that. 111 00:04:15,940 --> 00:04:18,760 So, we picked pushchairs because we'd already done 112 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:19,459 a couple of pushchairs. 113 00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:22,420 We had good manufacturing contacts out in China 114 00:04:22,420 --> 00:04:24,260 as a result of a couple of client 115 00:04:24,260 --> 00:04:27,320 projects we'd done in this space already. 116 00:04:27,500 --> 00:04:29,300 We'd also done some golf trolleys, so we 117 00:04:29,300 --> 00:04:31,660 could really see the similarity. 118 00:04:31,940 --> 00:04:33,660 We built up some real expertise in terms 119 00:04:33,660 --> 00:04:35,020 of wheeled push products. 120 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:36,720 I just wish that was a bigger category, 121 00:04:36,840 --> 00:04:37,380 but there we go. 122 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:40,660 And we thought, it's about time we put 123 00:04:40,660 --> 00:04:41,920 our money where our mouth is. 124 00:04:42,220 --> 00:04:44,340 But it's also a hugely commercial decision, so 125 00:04:44,340 --> 00:04:46,700 I don't mind sharing candidly with you and 126 00:04:46,700 --> 00:04:47,100 your listeners. 127 00:04:48,140 --> 00:04:50,740 Product design agency is tough, right? 128 00:04:50,740 --> 00:04:54,320 It's constantly kind of famine or feast. 129 00:04:54,740 --> 00:04:56,580 You're constantly trying to keep the team, particularly 130 00:04:56,580 --> 00:04:59,560 if you're an agency that's reasonable size. 131 00:04:59,700 --> 00:05:00,600 As we were at the time, we were 132 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:01,700 18 people at the time. 133 00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:05,740 Trying to keep 10, 12 designers constantly fed 134 00:05:05,740 --> 00:05:07,760 with work is really hard. 135 00:05:08,340 --> 00:05:09,480 And we're like, what we need here is 136 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:10,560 a different revenue line. 137 00:05:10,660 --> 00:05:12,700 We need something that actually we can scale. 138 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,880 We need something that is not just going 139 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:16,220 to be this kind of rollercoaster. 140 00:05:16,660 --> 00:05:18,480 And that's why we decided to develop our 141 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,300 own products at all in the first place. 142 00:05:20,300 --> 00:05:22,800 And then, as I say, push chairs, because 143 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:23,820 we had some experience there. 144 00:05:24,020 --> 00:05:26,080 Also, genuinely, I was really interested in designing 145 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:26,620 push chairs. 146 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,200 They are not easy, and I don't like 147 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:30,400 easy product design. 148 00:05:30,740 --> 00:05:33,000 We've always done technically complex stuff. 149 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,080 There's mechanics in there in terms of the 150 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:35,880 folding mechanisms. 151 00:05:36,060 --> 00:05:38,220 There's textiles, and we've got a textile team 152 00:05:38,220 --> 00:05:38,980 at D2M. 153 00:05:39,780 --> 00:05:41,660 So integrated textiles and hard goods we're really 154 00:05:41,660 --> 00:05:42,040 good at. 155 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,300 There's metal work, there's plastic work, wheels, bearings, 156 00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:47,160 all that stuff that I can get excited 157 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:48,980 about as a kind of technical, functional product 158 00:05:48,980 --> 00:05:49,680 designer, basically. 159 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:51,680 So yeah, that was all the reasoning. 160 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:54,180 And I can't remember the second half of 161 00:05:54,180 --> 00:05:54,860 your question now, Chris. 162 00:05:55,380 --> 00:06:00,340 Oh, it was how many brands did you 163 00:06:00,340 --> 00:06:01,320 have to pitch to, yeah. 164 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:02,040 Yeah. 165 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,140 Well, we did a couple of consumer shows, 166 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:05,920 and we pitched to some of the smaller, 167 00:06:05,980 --> 00:06:09,100 independent retailers before then to kind of cut 168 00:06:09,100 --> 00:06:10,760 our teeth and learn what it was like 169 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:12,800 to pitch in front of a buyer, kind 170 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:14,240 of get our answers down to kind of 171 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,960 standard questions, make sure we could supply good, 172 00:06:17,980 --> 00:06:21,080 ready answers and actually we were ready to 173 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:21,920 supply John Lewis. 174 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:23,160 And actually when it came to it, we 175 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:23,520 weren't. 176 00:06:23,700 --> 00:06:25,140 But we thought we were at that point, 177 00:06:25,220 --> 00:06:26,360 having done a few independents. 178 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,000 So we were probably in about six small 179 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:28,540 stores. 180 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:30,480 We've probably done something like kind of three 181 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,200 or four consumer shows by that point. 182 00:06:33,580 --> 00:06:35,220 And yeah, so that was the time we 183 00:06:35,220 --> 00:06:37,480 thought, okay, you know, let's go for this. 184 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:42,180 And was it your own branded product, or 185 00:06:42,180 --> 00:06:43,620 did you kind of white label it and 186 00:06:43,620 --> 00:06:44,320 brand it? 187 00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:45,520 Mr. John Lewis? 188 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,480 Well, actually it's a hybrid. 189 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:53,640 And there's an interesting story there, because it 190 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:54,880 really shouldn't have been in the end. 191 00:06:55,220 --> 00:06:57,180 So we decided rather than designing from scratch 192 00:06:57,180 --> 00:06:59,640 that we would start with a push chair 193 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,060 that was manufactured by a factory we had 194 00:07:02,060 --> 00:07:03,000 a good relationship with. 195 00:07:03,780 --> 00:07:05,920 But there's lots wrong with the design. 196 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:07,660 And we're like, okay, we'll redesign it. 197 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:08,860 But what we'll do is we'll keep the 198 00:07:08,860 --> 00:07:10,360 frame, we'll keep the folding mechanism. 199 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:11,900 We'll upgrade it to premium. 200 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:13,100 We'll look at the textiles. 201 00:07:13,260 --> 00:07:14,360 We'll bring in some new features. 202 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,800 We had these kind of wheels that took 203 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:18,380 out all the bumps and a suspension built 204 00:07:18,380 --> 00:07:19,800 in which were quite clever and all this 205 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:20,260 kind of stuff. 206 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,920 So, but actually in the end, there were 207 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,740 two fundamental flaws with that logic, even though 208 00:07:26,740 --> 00:07:28,220 it did save us tooling cost. 209 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,820 Actually, fitting around their existing chassis cost us 210 00:07:34,820 --> 00:07:36,700 more time than it would have taken us 211 00:07:36,700 --> 00:07:39,340 to design from scratch in the end. 212 00:07:39,700 --> 00:07:42,220 And also we lost orders because people were 213 00:07:42,220 --> 00:07:44,480 like, we love all the premium features, completely 214 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,460 see how a premium buyer will buy into 215 00:07:46,460 --> 00:07:49,380 that, but your folding mechanism, some of your 216 00:07:49,380 --> 00:07:51,340 moldings or whatever, they're just not premium enough. 217 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:53,740 They just feel like a mid-range push 218 00:07:53,740 --> 00:07:55,020 chair because obviously it was. 219 00:07:56,660 --> 00:08:00,900 And we hadn't anticipated that actually the buyers 220 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:02,340 particularly would be that discerning. 221 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,440 I'm not convinced that too many end customers 222 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:05,740 that would look at the quality of a 223 00:08:05,740 --> 00:08:09,160 folding mechanism molding and go, that isn't good 224 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:09,320 enough. 225 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,060 I'm not spending 900 pounds on that product. 226 00:08:11,060 --> 00:08:13,680 But certainly the buyers when they reviewed it 227 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,780 from distributors in other countries and whatever were 228 00:08:15,780 --> 00:08:17,880 like, no, that's not high enough quality. 229 00:08:18,580 --> 00:08:19,160 It's interesting, isn't it? 230 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:20,620 Because John Lewis is a quantity retailer. 231 00:08:21,260 --> 00:08:22,100 They didn't have a problem with it at 232 00:08:22,100 --> 00:08:24,200 all, but we did certainly lose other orders 233 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:24,940 because of that. 234 00:08:25,660 --> 00:08:26,160 Oh, interesting. 235 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,500 Yeah, and I guess it's one of those 236 00:08:29,500 --> 00:08:32,419 things that you might not necessarily go in 237 00:08:33,580 --> 00:08:36,260 fully armed without that knowledge if you approach 238 00:08:36,260 --> 00:08:37,640 it for the first time and then you 239 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:38,320 might assume that. 240 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,159 Yeah, good enough is good enough in a 241 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:43,620 lot of cases. 242 00:08:44,580 --> 00:08:46,380 The actual end user, so long as it 243 00:08:46,380 --> 00:08:49,020 works away, they're not going to pull you 244 00:08:49,020 --> 00:08:50,820 apart on the mold quality. 245 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:52,240 I would have thought so. 246 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,260 I think equally, there's a bit of a 247 00:08:55,260 --> 00:08:56,400 lesson in that as well in that we 248 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:57,920 went in in premium, so our product was 249 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:58,720 900 pounds. 250 00:08:58,980 --> 00:09:01,100 Bugaboo at the time, depending on what model, 251 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:02,660 it was 850 to 1,000. 252 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,000 Stocker was maybe 1,000. 253 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:06,840 There was some high-end kind of eye 254 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:08,700 -candy models that were retailing at more like 255 00:09:08,700 --> 00:09:09,940 1,600 and stuff. 256 00:09:10,580 --> 00:09:11,800 Mima was about 1,200. 257 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,180 We pitched it in amongst the premiums, but 258 00:09:15,180 --> 00:09:16,300 I think we shouldn't have done. 259 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:18,740 I think we should have gone mid-range, 260 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,060 more volume, and not had that level of 261 00:09:22,060 --> 00:09:23,360 discernment from the buyers. 262 00:09:23,660 --> 00:09:25,000 If we'd gone to those buyers and said, 263 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,640 this is a 750-queer push chair, they'd 264 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,400 be like, okay, that's top of the mid 265 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,020 -range, but it's not premium, and they wouldn't 266 00:09:31,020 --> 00:09:33,980 be there measuring us against those other brands 267 00:09:33,980 --> 00:09:37,900 that had taken basically a bog-standard push 268 00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:39,520 chair, if you like, and pre-minized it. 269 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:40,320 Whereas we didn't. 270 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:41,660 We took a kind of mid-range push 271 00:09:41,660 --> 00:09:43,080 chair and then put a whole lot of 272 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,540 genuinely useful features and upgraded the textiles and 273 00:09:45,540 --> 00:09:45,720 stuff. 274 00:09:46,020 --> 00:09:48,400 Our bomb cost was about $200 on that 275 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:48,700 product. 276 00:09:49,380 --> 00:09:51,540 The Bugaboo at the time, their bomb cost 277 00:09:51,540 --> 00:09:52,380 was under $100. 278 00:09:53,340 --> 00:09:56,420 Us was a significantly more expensive product to 279 00:09:56,420 --> 00:09:58,840 produce, even when you take into account volumes, 280 00:09:58,860 --> 00:10:00,580 and they're not that high in premium push 281 00:10:00,580 --> 00:10:00,820 chairs. 282 00:10:01,020 --> 00:10:02,280 There's not that much of a discount in 283 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:02,620 it. 284 00:10:02,620 --> 00:10:05,680 But as a customer, you're getting significantly more 285 00:10:05,680 --> 00:10:06,800 for your money with our product. 286 00:10:07,980 --> 00:10:09,800 But being in that premium price point did 287 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:10,900 just open us up to a whole lot 288 00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:14,620 of scrutiny that we could have avoided, could 289 00:10:14,620 --> 00:10:16,720 have not chased margin and chased volume instead 290 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,780 to hit our numbers and gone from there. 291 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,040 But equally, there's loads in that market that 292 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:23,560 was just really tough at the time. 293 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:24,220 Yeah. 294 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:25,300 But there we go. 295 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,320 And you mentioned that you obviously were taking 296 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:29,240 it to trade shows. 297 00:10:29,580 --> 00:10:31,660 You met potential buyers there. 298 00:10:31,660 --> 00:10:34,880 Were you taking a prototype to trade shows, 299 00:10:34,980 --> 00:10:36,720 or were you taking essentially the finished product 300 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,860 and you were pitching that to the buyers? 301 00:10:39,980 --> 00:10:40,080 Yeah. 302 00:10:40,300 --> 00:10:41,840 So because we were working from a mid 303 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,420 -range kind of existing push chair, we were 304 00:10:44,420 --> 00:10:48,220 able then to actually get effectively factory samples, 305 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,440 albeit potentially with some prototype parts, that then 306 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,020 looked the part for those trade shows and 307 00:10:54,020 --> 00:10:55,020 those consumer shows. 308 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:59,580 We raised $750,000 with investment in total. 309 00:10:59,580 --> 00:11:00,720 So we went into tooling. 310 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,100 And because we weren't tooling the whole thing, 311 00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:03,800 we could go into tooling quite quickly. 312 00:11:04,180 --> 00:11:06,420 So relatively rapidly, we were actually sharing sample 313 00:11:06,420 --> 00:11:08,760 product as opposed to prototypes. 314 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,380 And it's very, very hard to get a 315 00:11:11,380 --> 00:11:14,020 prototype push chair to work like a final 316 00:11:14,020 --> 00:11:15,520 product, look like a final product. 317 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,320 So we had to get there quite quickly, 318 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:18,580 really. 319 00:11:20,940 --> 00:11:23,500 Yeah, we've dived deeper than I expected to 320 00:11:23,500 --> 00:11:24,340 on the opening question. 321 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:26,500 But it's super, super interesting. 322 00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:28,960 I'm guessing, so what you're saying is, is 323 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,140 the key lesson there, or I wouldn't say 324 00:11:31,140 --> 00:11:34,540 regret, but key lesson, it isn't necessarily that 325 00:11:34,540 --> 00:11:36,920 you worked from an existing product. 326 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,200 It's more about where you pitched it then 327 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,780 because you're limited by the premium-ness of 328 00:11:43,780 --> 00:11:45,360 it based on the donor chassis. 329 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:46,580 Yeah, I think so. 330 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:48,680 I certainly didn't realize until I'd gone in 331 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:50,740 and done the project that actually if you 332 00:11:50,740 --> 00:11:52,820 pitch it premium, and it seems obvious, right, 333 00:11:52,860 --> 00:11:54,240 but I wasn't thinking about it, you're going 334 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:55,860 to get a whole load more scrutiny than 335 00:11:55,860 --> 00:11:57,240 if you pitched it at kind of mid 336 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:57,580 -range. 337 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:00,620 And that did make a huge difference. 338 00:12:00,780 --> 00:12:02,940 I think there's lots of other lessons in 339 00:12:02,940 --> 00:12:04,600 it as well, but certainly kind of chasing 340 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,240 margin and going, we want to make the 341 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,720 maximum we can per product early on. 342 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:10,940 It's certainly not something I ever advise my 343 00:12:10,940 --> 00:12:11,620 clients to do. 344 00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:13,040 It's like you've got to get market penetration, 345 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:14,560 you've got to get volume, you've got to 346 00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:16,520 get that factory relationship in a good place, 347 00:12:16,680 --> 00:12:17,920 and you're only going to get that as 348 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:19,540 in when you've got some volume going through 349 00:12:19,540 --> 00:12:19,940 there. 350 00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:22,880 It's easy to get back to investors and 351 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:24,720 go, look, we've sold a lot, we haven't 352 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:26,280 made much margin on that, and we've got 353 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,260 mechanisms for improving that margin over time than 354 00:12:29,260 --> 00:12:30,520 it is to go to investors and go, 355 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,240 look, we haven't hit our numbers, we haven't 356 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,260 sold much volume at all, but we've made 357 00:12:34,260 --> 00:12:35,920 loads of money on each product and they're 358 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:36,980 like, well, and? 359 00:12:38,340 --> 00:12:40,220 We weren't in it for a quick return, 360 00:12:40,340 --> 00:12:43,060 Phil, what we wanted to see is volume. 361 00:12:44,060 --> 00:12:45,800 And if you can prove the volume, then 362 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,180 arguably they put more money in if necessary 363 00:12:48,180 --> 00:12:50,840 to kind of then find those kind of 364 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:51,880 ways of improving the margin. 365 00:12:52,020 --> 00:12:53,500 Of course, you've got volume as well, and 366 00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:55,540 you can then negotiate with your manufacturers and 367 00:12:55,540 --> 00:12:57,080 you can squeeze the margin there anyway. 368 00:12:57,860 --> 00:12:59,660 Yeah, I think that was a big lesson 369 00:12:59,660 --> 00:12:59,960 really. 370 00:13:00,420 --> 00:13:01,840 Amongst a whole lot of others, we wasted 371 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:02,840 a lot of money on branding. 372 00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:06,020 I think we spent £126,000 with a 373 00:13:06,020 --> 00:13:10,100 branding company, and it just bombed. 374 00:13:10,580 --> 00:13:12,660 So we launched that brand and that messaging 375 00:13:12,660 --> 00:13:13,720 that they came up with. 376 00:13:14,460 --> 00:13:17,840 Cologne, a massive international trade show, 30 buyers 377 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:19,300 from all over the world in the room, 378 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:20,680 and they just came up to us after 379 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:23,080 they went, love the product, don't understand the 380 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:24,220 brand, don't understand the messaging. 381 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:24,760 Oh, really? 382 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:25,580 Yeah. 383 00:13:26,060 --> 00:13:28,440 And that was a big well-renowned company. 384 00:13:28,620 --> 00:13:30,220 We'd taken references, all that kind of stuff. 385 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:32,700 And yeah, it was horrible. 386 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:34,340 The amount of equity I'd given up to 387 00:13:34,340 --> 00:13:36,780 raise that money to do that branding, and 388 00:13:36,780 --> 00:13:38,900 then it was, yeah, not good. 389 00:13:39,540 --> 00:13:42,100 So what would you... 390 00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:45,820 I guess you've been down this path a 391 00:13:45,820 --> 00:13:46,540 few times, have you? 392 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,960 It's kind of launching products, but what were 393 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,320 the key lessons or kind of takeaways from 394 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,680 that kind of experience of the branding that 395 00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:57,800 you could share with others? 396 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,860 Yeah, I think just because the company's expensive, 397 00:14:03,140 --> 00:14:05,040 just because they say they're good, don't believe 398 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:05,320 it. 399 00:14:06,180 --> 00:14:08,360 And I think the mechanism I use now 400 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,520 with our clients is say, look, use minimum 401 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,420 viable branding in the same way that you 402 00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:14,820 do minimum viable products. 403 00:14:15,260 --> 00:14:17,220 Don't go all out and spend an absolute 404 00:14:17,220 --> 00:14:19,420 fortune to do everything and all your brand 405 00:14:19,420 --> 00:14:22,120 guidelines and whatever early on before you started 406 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,600 selling something because inevitably your messaging and whatever 407 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:27,240 will change. 408 00:14:27,460 --> 00:14:28,860 And what we thought was going to land 409 00:14:28,860 --> 00:14:31,640 and resonate with our customers didn't in terms 410 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:32,220 of the brand. 411 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,160 And I think I'd also say, you'd be 412 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,180 very, very cautious of any branding agency that 413 00:14:36,180 --> 00:14:37,500 sits there and goes, no, no, no, we 414 00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:38,240 know what we're doing. 415 00:14:38,460 --> 00:14:40,160 It's like, I want the data. 416 00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:43,320 How many of our target customers have you 417 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,460 run this messaging past and how many have 418 00:14:45,460 --> 00:14:47,000 said, yes, I'll buy a product that says 419 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:47,300 that? 420 00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:49,440 Or how many have said, I prefer that 421 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:51,400 kind of logo to this one? 422 00:14:51,620 --> 00:14:53,200 And the problem is, a lot of the 423 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,740 time, certainly with my experience, the guys doing 424 00:14:56,740 --> 00:14:58,620 the branding, there's a lot of arrogance there. 425 00:14:59,220 --> 00:15:03,560 As a product designer, I wouldn't ever tend 426 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,880 not to say to our clients, it's got 427 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:08,260 to be this, this is right, I know 428 00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:08,780 I'm right. 429 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:10,080 It tends to be, we're going to do 430 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:11,520 the market research, are we going to prove 431 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:11,780 it? 432 00:15:12,300 --> 00:15:13,580 If the client doesn't want to pay for 433 00:15:13,580 --> 00:15:15,040 that, well, that's up to them at that 434 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:15,240 point. 435 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:15,580 Clearly. 436 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,680 But I would always do branding now with 437 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:22,360 the target market involved at every step of 438 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,160 the way to make sure that you don't 439 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,780 end up, yeah, £100,000 plus down the 440 00:15:26,780 --> 00:15:28,040 line and it doesn't work. 441 00:15:29,540 --> 00:15:30,380 Well, I guess, you know, when you think 442 00:15:30,380 --> 00:15:33,620 about the professionally trained storytellers, aren't they? 443 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,420 So they're in the business of hopefully kind 444 00:15:37,420 --> 00:15:38,880 of bringing you on a journey and getting 445 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:39,960 excited about it. 446 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,700 So if you're personally invested in the product 447 00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:45,120 and the brand, it can be easy to 448 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:46,660 see why you might get, yeah, swept up 449 00:15:46,660 --> 00:15:47,580 in that. 450 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,920 Yeah, they were, they were absolute masters at 451 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:50,160 that. 452 00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:53,280 So every time we hit a kind of 453 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,060 a milestone where they were revealing something or 454 00:15:55,060 --> 00:15:56,820 whatever, it wasn't just our PINGO, PDF and 455 00:15:56,820 --> 00:15:58,280 email, it's like come in for a meeting 456 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,000 and then a lot of nice coffee and 457 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,280 they've got blah, blah, blah. 458 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,600 And then it's all on huge boards printed 459 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,380 around the room and, you know, all of 460 00:16:06,380 --> 00:16:09,520 that just, you know, it's all curated to 461 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,160 make you think this is great and not 462 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:12,760 question it. 463 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,680 Whereas actually, you know, what would have been 464 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,900 much more helpful in retrospect was something that 465 00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:20,880 was less showy and more focused on and 466 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,360 actually functionally working with the customer. 467 00:16:25,340 --> 00:16:27,340 Yeah, I'm just getting visions of mad men 468 00:16:27,340 --> 00:16:27,900 now. 469 00:16:30,580 --> 00:16:32,040 Oh, awesome. 470 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,140 Well, let's dive into the actual first question 471 00:16:37,140 --> 00:16:39,560 I used to ask was, Phil, why design? 472 00:16:39,940 --> 00:16:41,860 What drew you down this path, you know, 473 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,020 all those years ago? 474 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,920 What kind of pulled you into ID? 475 00:16:50,020 --> 00:16:51,120 Yeah, it's a really good question. 476 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,320 So I was passionate about two things really 477 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,280 when I was kind of choosing A levels 478 00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:58,060 and all that kind of stuff. 479 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,920 I was passionate about building models, so ready 480 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:03,900 controlled aircraft, boats, all that kind of stuff. 481 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,400 Passionate about building little mechanisms and motors and 482 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,319 battery arrangements for ready controlled boats and all 483 00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:09,839 that kind of stuff. 484 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:14,140 And yeah, kind of just loving that and 485 00:17:14,140 --> 00:17:17,520 love DT in school and naturally, I guess, 486 00:17:17,540 --> 00:17:19,040 found that an easier kind of subject. 487 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:22,119 And the other thing I was really passionate 488 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,599 about, which I kind of didn't tell anyone 489 00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:26,920 because it just wasn't cool. 490 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:28,420 And I'm still not sure whether it is 491 00:17:28,420 --> 00:17:29,440 cool or not, but I think it's cooler 492 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:29,880 than it was. 493 00:17:29,980 --> 00:17:31,000 You're going to commit it to a podcast. 494 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,580 Yeah, I was just really passionate about nature 495 00:17:34,580 --> 00:17:35,620 and wildlife, basically. 496 00:17:35,980 --> 00:17:36,260 Okay. 497 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:38,800 And I looked at careers in both and 498 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,760 if I wanted a career in wildlife, then 499 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:43,480 basically I was going to get paid tap 500 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:44,560 and safety in a couple of buttons. 501 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:45,700 I was going to have to volunteer for 502 00:17:45,700 --> 00:17:47,520 10 years on probably no pay. 503 00:17:48,580 --> 00:17:50,280 And everyone else in the industry was 65 504 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,380 in a wax jacket and a male and 505 00:17:53,380 --> 00:17:53,660 white. 506 00:17:53,980 --> 00:17:55,620 And I was like, yeah, actually, I'm not 507 00:17:55,620 --> 00:17:57,020 really, I'm not for that. 508 00:17:57,360 --> 00:17:59,420 So I went into product development and product 509 00:17:59,420 --> 00:18:00,060 design instead. 510 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:04,300 Yeah, and now it's minus the wax jacket. 511 00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:07,280 It's, you know, middle Asian white blokes as 512 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:07,780 well. 513 00:18:07,780 --> 00:18:10,380 Predominantly in the industry design. 514 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,440 Yeah, it is a deal. 515 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,640 I didn't manage to get any greater diversity 516 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,060 in terms of the type of contemporaries I 517 00:18:18,060 --> 00:18:18,700 was working with. 518 00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:20,480 But I did at least manage to get 519 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,780 decently paid from the outset. 520 00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:25,660 That's awesome. 521 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,580 I'm looking at your qualifications, you know, it's 522 00:18:29,580 --> 00:18:32,140 classic, kind of maths, physics and DTA level 523 00:18:32,140 --> 00:18:36,240 and then industrial design and technology degree from 524 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:36,760 Loughborough. 525 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,160 It's like, you know, if we were the 526 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,420 other way around, I was interviewing for roles, 527 00:18:42,940 --> 00:18:44,600 I'd be able to open my client book 528 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,140 for you because it's, you know, that's the 529 00:18:47,140 --> 00:18:49,800 classic foundation what we look for, you know. 530 00:18:50,780 --> 00:18:54,660 So, yeah, great kind of starting point. 531 00:18:55,780 --> 00:18:58,600 To talk us through kind of those early 532 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,820 days then, you know, coming out of university, 533 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,440 did you know what you wanted to do? 534 00:19:03,620 --> 00:19:06,300 Was there kind of a, obviously, it wasn't 535 00:19:06,300 --> 00:19:08,040 nature at that point, it was going to 536 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:09,960 be design, so... 537 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:11,800 Yeah, yeah, I was very clear. 538 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,380 Yeah, very clear from from age of 14, 539 00:19:15,540 --> 00:19:18,000 15, you know, having decided I was going 540 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,960 to do design rather than kind of conservation 541 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,180 or anything, I was like, right, okay, what 542 00:19:23,180 --> 00:19:24,000 items do I need to do? 543 00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:26,620 Exactly like you said, where's the best university 544 00:19:26,620 --> 00:19:27,260 in the country? 545 00:19:28,740 --> 00:19:30,520 And I went and made sure I got 546 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,920 a first from that university, basically, and then 547 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,120 made sure I got a job, did everything 548 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:36,400 I could to kind of do that. 549 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,420 And then, you know, I think even in 550 00:19:39,420 --> 00:19:41,020 my yearbook at kind of sixth form, kind 551 00:19:41,020 --> 00:19:42,160 of leaving, I was like, I'm going to 552 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,060 start my own kind of agency. 553 00:19:44,620 --> 00:19:46,280 It's probably because I'm just really not very 554 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,700 employable, don't lie being told what to do 555 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:51,860 and tend to think that other people are 556 00:19:51,860 --> 00:19:52,680 making the wrong decisions. 557 00:19:53,060 --> 00:19:55,400 So, I was always aware that I probably 558 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:56,540 wasn't going to be able to work for 559 00:19:56,540 --> 00:19:57,900 anyone else for too long. 560 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:01,420 At least, yeah, you were able to reflect 561 00:20:01,420 --> 00:20:01,960 on that. 562 00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:06,200 And I acknowledge, I think funny people go 563 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,340 through life wondering why they're not progressing because 564 00:20:10,340 --> 00:20:12,940 they just don't work well under authority. 565 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,200 I think that softened quite a lot now 566 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,980 and I think having spent 15 years running 567 00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:23,160 my own show, having exited the business kind 568 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,060 of at Christmas, I'm very excited about not 569 00:20:27,060 --> 00:20:28,900 having to be the person in the room 570 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:30,400 all the time that everyone looks to, everyone 571 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,240 wants to start the meeting, who takes responsibility, 572 00:20:33,820 --> 00:20:35,240 who's constantly worried about cash flow. 573 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:36,820 Well, you know, until a couple of years 574 00:20:36,820 --> 00:20:38,560 ago when things really took off at D2M. 575 00:20:38,860 --> 00:20:40,940 So, I'm quite looking forward now to that 576 00:20:40,940 --> 00:20:42,240 and I'm certainly much more open to work 577 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:42,940 for someone else. 578 00:20:43,980 --> 00:20:46,440 As an arrogant kind of, you know, 20 579 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,340 -year-old mid-20s or whatever, I thought 580 00:20:49,340 --> 00:20:51,920 I knew better and, you know, I wanted 581 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,540 to be steering the ship, I guess. 582 00:20:54,360 --> 00:21:00,180 Yeah, no, it's funny how things, how perspectives 583 00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:03,340 change over years as well and just we 584 00:21:03,340 --> 00:21:07,400 evolve as managers, as leaders, as employees as 585 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:07,600 well. 586 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,740 So, I've definitely become more zen as I 587 00:21:11,740 --> 00:21:14,820 get grey hairs and, you know, I think 588 00:21:14,820 --> 00:21:19,840 I interviewed Will Butler Adams from Brompton last 589 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,600 year and one of the things that, I'm 590 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:24,900 going to sound very AI now and I 591 00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:25,920 say one of the things that stuck with 592 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,860 me but seriously, one of the things I 593 00:21:28,860 --> 00:21:31,460 said is like, well, did anyone die? 594 00:21:31,860 --> 00:21:33,640 You know, if you made a decision, did 595 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:34,780 anyone die, I'll get hurt. 596 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,700 If not, then, you know, that's fine. 597 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:39,500 Just learn from it and move on, you 598 00:21:39,500 --> 00:21:39,640 know. 599 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,720 And so, yeah, whenever kind of, I've got 600 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,540 someone in my team that's, you know, worried 601 00:21:46,540 --> 00:21:49,100 about making a mistake or they've maybe put 602 00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:51,220 a typo on an email, it's like, no 603 00:21:51,220 --> 00:21:52,560 one died, you know. 604 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,120 Next week no one's going to remember that 605 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:59,000 typo or, you know, whatever you've done, it's 606 00:21:59,000 --> 00:21:59,380 fine. 607 00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:03,020 So, I'm definitely getting more zen. 608 00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:04,500 A few years back I might have lost 609 00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:06,880 the spot because I was obsessed about detail. 610 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,840 Before we dive back in, this one is 611 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,320 for founders and CEOs building physical products. 612 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:15,880 If you're thinking about hiring a VP of 613 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,200 product, chief product officer or head of R 614 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,820 &D, this is not just another hire. 615 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,160 It defines how your roadmap is set, how 616 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,420 your teams are built, and how your company 617 00:22:26,420 --> 00:22:27,520 competes. 618 00:22:28,020 --> 00:22:30,380 At Kodu, we specialize in securing senior product 619 00:22:30,380 --> 00:22:32,980 and engineering leaders for hardware businesses entering their 620 00:22:32,980 --> 00:22:34,240 next stage of growth. 621 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,940 Focused, discreet, high-consecurities. 622 00:22:37,580 --> 00:22:39,680 If that decision is on your horizon, find 623 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,260 me, Chris White, on LinkedIn, and let's talk 624 00:22:42,260 --> 00:22:42,420 again. 625 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:44,200 Well, yeah. 626 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,340 So, we'll talk, so you kind of start 627 00:22:48,340 --> 00:22:50,400 in D2AM. 628 00:22:50,540 --> 00:22:52,020 Obviously, we'll talk about kind of where you 629 00:22:52,020 --> 00:22:55,800 are at the moment, but in a moment. 630 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:01,920 You grew D2AM from nothing, essentially, at a 631 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,980 fairly young age as well. 632 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,320 You turned it into quite a serious operation 633 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,900 where you're developing products not only for clients 634 00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:11,900 but also for the business. 635 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,920 What was the first decision, you remember, that 636 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:17,900 made it feel like a real business? 637 00:23:19,100 --> 00:23:20,140 Was there a moment there? 638 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,600 Yeah, I think when we employed our first 639 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,360 member of the team, and it wasn't just 640 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:28,140 me in a back bedroom, and that was 641 00:23:28,140 --> 00:23:30,000 only about three months after starting it, and 642 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,860 it was an incredible kind of growth rate 643 00:23:33,860 --> 00:23:34,200 initially. 644 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:36,860 I'm not sure, in retrospect, I'd take much 645 00:23:36,860 --> 00:23:37,480 credit for that. 646 00:23:37,660 --> 00:23:40,760 I think there's lots of good tailwinds at 647 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,520 that point in the industry and whatever else. 648 00:23:42,860 --> 00:23:44,340 So, I'm not arrogant about it, but it 649 00:23:44,340 --> 00:23:45,340 did grow very fast. 650 00:23:46,460 --> 00:23:47,700 It was 2010, wasn't it, when you started? 651 00:23:48,460 --> 00:23:53,200 2010, I was 28 or something, and got 652 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:54,360 our first clients very quickly. 653 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,020 None of that really felt like a proper 654 00:23:56,020 --> 00:23:57,400 business because I was still working in my 655 00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:58,380 back bedroom or whatever else. 656 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,300 We then moved into shared offices. 657 00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:04,360 It was really looking at CV and going, 658 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,780 yeah, that's the person we're going to interview, 659 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:08,720 and then going, okay, we're going to offer 660 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:09,160 them a job. 661 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:10,980 At that point, it was like, oh, actually, 662 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,640 this is working, this is bona fide. 663 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,840 I had some help starting the business as 664 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,080 well in the shared offices that we weren't 665 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,220 paying for and some kind of capital to 666 00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:22,720 start it. 667 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:24,040 Not as much as I said we needed, 668 00:24:24,340 --> 00:24:25,900 but nevertheless, it was still something. 669 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,080 At that point, it felt kind of real, 670 00:24:30,380 --> 00:24:32,920 really, and someone else's mortgage was dependent upon 671 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,600 me being able to bring in enough work. 672 00:24:36,980 --> 00:24:38,440 Yeah, it does make it real. 673 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,780 What triggered that first hire then? 674 00:24:43,780 --> 00:24:46,280 Was it just demand from the clients or 675 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:46,920 were you? 676 00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:52,840 Yeah, it wasn't even a designer kind of 677 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:53,040 hire. 678 00:24:53,220 --> 00:24:55,200 It was basically kind of office manager. 679 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:56,140 Okay. 680 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,120 Yeah, so many inquiries coming in, so much 681 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:00,660 to kind of handle in terms of proposals 682 00:25:00,660 --> 00:25:01,340 going out. 683 00:25:01,700 --> 00:25:04,080 I was doing the design work and it 684 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,840 was like, it doesn't make sense for me 685 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,460 to be, well, I can't spend all week 686 00:25:09,460 --> 00:25:12,860 dealing with proposals and new inquiries and then 687 00:25:12,860 --> 00:25:14,840 all weekend doing five days worth of billable 688 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:16,360 work, that's not going to happen. 689 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,240 It was obviously cheaper and easier to hire 690 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:21,720 in an office manager than it was to 691 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:22,940 hire a designer first off. 692 00:25:24,420 --> 00:25:28,020 Within two years, we were four designers and 693 00:25:28,020 --> 00:25:32,620 a part-time kind of proposal writer and 694 00:25:32,620 --> 00:25:33,240 stuff as well. 695 00:25:33,620 --> 00:25:33,780 Yeah. 696 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,060 Yeah, it did grow very rapidly. 697 00:25:36,060 --> 00:25:41,300 Yeah, I'm reading Buy Back Your Time at 698 00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:41,620 the moment. 699 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,160 I don't know if you've come across that, 700 00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:46,340 but literally the mantra is look at the 701 00:25:46,340 --> 00:25:49,260 tasks that you perform on a daily, weekly 702 00:25:49,260 --> 00:25:52,760 basis, which ones are high-value tasks that 703 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,640 you do exceptionally well and that only you 704 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,400 and the business can do exceptionally well and 705 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,820 then delegate as much as humanly possible, employ 706 00:26:01,820 --> 00:26:04,200 people who are awesome at those not so 707 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,160 high-value tasks because otherwise, yeah, you just 708 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,900 find yourself being busy all the time. 709 00:26:10,220 --> 00:26:12,800 Yeah, and that is the story of D2M, 710 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,120 that is the story of the 15 years 711 00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:15,160 of building D2M. 712 00:26:16,740 --> 00:26:19,500 We recruited a designer, probably a guy you 713 00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:21,880 know, Rupert Worries relatively rapidly and I was 714 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,600 like, this guy is just so far above 715 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,000 what I could do design-wise. 716 00:26:27,060 --> 00:26:28,340 That's the type of person I want to 717 00:26:28,340 --> 00:26:28,620 employ. 718 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,200 I don't care that he's way better than 719 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:31,640 I am or I feel kind of inferior. 720 00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:34,240 But he's working for my clients and helping 721 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:35,180 me build my business. 722 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:36,200 Well, great. 723 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,180 And I look at the guys now and 724 00:26:39,180 --> 00:26:40,500 I tried to do some CAD this morning 725 00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:42,200 because I'm still kind of finishing off a 726 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:42,740 kind of project. 727 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:44,040 So I was like, this is just a 728 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:44,660 waste of time. 729 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,160 I'm just light years behind my team. 730 00:26:47,780 --> 00:26:49,060 So I just popped into the office and 731 00:26:49,060 --> 00:26:50,440 briefed one of the guys on it and 732 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:51,320 he needs six hours later. 733 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:52,660 I've got something that would have taken me 734 00:26:52,660 --> 00:26:53,940 probably the best part of three days and 735 00:26:53,940 --> 00:26:54,980 it's much better. 736 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:57,460 And that's what I've done the whole way 737 00:26:57,460 --> 00:26:59,640 through and I guess having delegated for 15 738 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,000 years, eventually got to a point where I 739 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,300 had a team that didn't really need me 740 00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:05,360 and actually then realized that they'd be better 741 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:06,620 off without me, in fact. 742 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,560 And I was actually kind of holding them 743 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:10,440 back in some way. 744 00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:13,180 But I only achieved that and only managed 745 00:27:13,180 --> 00:27:14,880 to move out of the business and not 746 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,840 very many people do actually manage to found 747 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,780 the business, grow it and get to a 748 00:27:18,780 --> 00:27:20,340 point where it can survive without them. 749 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,400 But that delegating and that employing people much 750 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,440 better than I am was the only reason 751 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:26,920 I managed to actually kind of do that 752 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:27,120 pretty. 753 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:29,280 Yeah, so it's awesome. 754 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,340 Like I say, especially in a small kind 755 00:27:32,340 --> 00:27:37,060 of creative services business, creative problem solving business, 756 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,980 you often find the founder, I'm in the 757 00:27:41,980 --> 00:27:44,620 same boat here, it's like we do things 758 00:27:44,620 --> 00:27:47,100 really, really well and to our standards and 759 00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:48,640 it's very difficult to let go. 760 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,660 But you can condition that muscle, can't you, 761 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,280 to delegate and once you do, that person's 762 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,460 awesome at that and... 763 00:27:59,460 --> 00:28:01,560 There's been a lot of the way that 764 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:03,500 work also though, I have to say. 765 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,100 When we were kind of 18 people, it 766 00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:10,500 was really hard to employ middle managers to 767 00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:13,280 a point where we actually shrunk the company 768 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:14,940 and said we're just not going to try 769 00:28:14,940 --> 00:28:15,260 again. 770 00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:18,520 So we had, I think, three kind of 771 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,460 studio manager, design managers kind of in a 772 00:28:20,460 --> 00:28:23,920 row and don't get me wrong, they weren't 773 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,280 all bad at all, but it didn't work 774 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:28,420 in the way that I thought it was 775 00:28:28,420 --> 00:28:31,540 going to and some of that was probably 776 00:28:31,540 --> 00:28:33,780 me and me needing to grow and get 777 00:28:33,780 --> 00:28:34,400 more zen. 778 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:36,000 You're so afraid. 779 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,960 But equally, I think it's very, very hard. 780 00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:41,580 I think that's one of the reasons that 781 00:28:41,580 --> 00:28:44,540 I wouldn't start a design agency again is 782 00:28:44,540 --> 00:28:46,780 because there just is not an abundance of 783 00:28:46,780 --> 00:28:47,460 middle managers. 784 00:28:48,580 --> 00:28:49,480 I've been to quite a lot of business 785 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,780 talks over the years, one recently, a guy 786 00:28:52,780 --> 00:28:55,460 that runs kind of farm attractions so a 787 00:28:55,460 --> 00:28:59,560 completely different sphere, but he's really successful and 788 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:01,260 doing very, very well, making lots of money. 789 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,600 But one of the reasons is that he 790 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,300 basically spends most of his time raising middle 791 00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:09,460 managers, putting them in place and then taking 792 00:29:09,460 --> 00:29:11,540 his hands off that bit and then raising 793 00:29:11,540 --> 00:29:12,160 the next one. 794 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,640 It's all very well, but in an industry 795 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,460 where 90% of the businesses are five 796 00:29:16,460 --> 00:29:18,640 people or under and therefore don't have any 797 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,440 managers, there's just no pool of physical product 798 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:22,900 design managers to draw on. 799 00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:25,840 It just makes it very, very difficult because 800 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,520 basically you're having to train someone who has 801 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:31,920 kind of cultural impact on your business who 802 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,780 is unlikely to have experience in physical product 803 00:29:34,780 --> 00:29:35,160 development. 804 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,580 I just found it very difficult and equally 805 00:29:39,580 --> 00:29:41,300 we tried to kind of raise designers up 806 00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:43,840 to become managers and designers, some of whom 807 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,320 didn't want to and we said, well, we 808 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,060 think you've got that ability and others who 809 00:29:47,060 --> 00:29:49,020 wanted to, who didn't have that ability and 810 00:29:49,020 --> 00:29:51,840 it has just never worked for me at 811 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,920 all really and that's been one of the 812 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:55,640 challenges and one of the reasons that we 813 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,680 didn't pursue a growth trajectory beyond.