when we're on our phones, we're just elsewhere. the quickest way for you to create misery in your current life is to wish you were somewhere else or in some way to be elsewhere. The understanding that the way that we interpret the events in our lives matters more than the events themselves. Right? obviously we, we have to care for ourselves. We have to care about our lives. Um, but the reality is that other care. Is actually a much better mood boost, right? So if you're interested in raising the way that you feel like improving your wellness, your meaning, your mattering in life, the quickest path to that isn't self-care. It's other care.

Hello listeners Thank you for joining us today. Our guest is Iuri Melo. is a licensed clinical social worker, as well as the co-founder of School Pulse, which you can find at school pulse.org. Iuri, as we normally do here, take a few minutes, introduce yourself, and we'll let the conversation go from there.

I love it. Russell, thank you so much for letting me come. I love the, I love the topic, I love the title of your podcast and, uh, I hope that I can find lots of fun ways with maybe some ideas and some strategies to. To make those skills Right. Really come to life to your listeners. But, so yeah, my, my name is Iuri Melo. I'm a, I've been a licensed clinical social worker now for a long time. Most of my time and experience has really been as a psychotherapist, uh, of 21 years. I'm still doing that, uh, while at the same time trying to, to create this, this wonderful service that started about seven years ago. And maybe I'll tell you just a little bit about that in a moment. But I'm, uh, originally from, from Portugal. I was actually born in Africa, a long ways away, then moved to Portugal, grew up there, then came to America right at, at the age of 15 and have stuck around. And, uh, I have to admit, it's, it's been a real, a real fortunate and a real blessing in my life. I'm a married man. My wonderful Katie. I've got five incredible kids. Uh, three of them that are kind of out of the house, one that's here, but that's about to be gone in about a week. And then we'll be left with our amazing little girl who's well little. She's 14 and kind of just starting high school this year. And, uh, uh, it's, it's, it's been a really wonderful time. I, we live in a, in a wonderful place. If, if any of you are familiar with, uh, Southern Utah, we're about an hour and 45 minutes away from Las Vegas in this little pocket of just beautiful high desert. We're kind of in between the Grand Canyon, lake Powell, Bryce Canyon, Zion National Park, and St. George just kind of resides in that kind of high altitude desert. And, uh, as a result of that, there's just. Unbelievable. Beautiful world class climbing all around. Um, and I've been climbing now for a lot of time and actually was kind of, uh, a founder in a way, in a unique way of what I call it venture based therapy, which is actually, I actually take my amazing clients and we take advantage of this incredible location, and we rock climb, we boulder, we do canyoneering, we do repelling, and we use that as kind of part of this therapeutic experience, not, not just as, as like a vehicle to kind of communicate some sort of a therapeutic concept, but as I say to my clients, like, by the time you and I are done, you're gonna be a legitimate climber. Like, so this'll be. A skill, right? Something a a, a piece of mastery that you can utilize at any point in your life and just enjoy and just be outside, exercise and do something incredible. And so that's just a little bit about me. We, we started School Pulse about seven years ago. I'll tell you briefly about that, if that's okay. Uh, interestingly enough, uh, as probably as it is with most things we've kind of recognized, or, or, or really the program came as kind of the genesis of, of some crisis that was happening here in our community. We had, in 2017, uh, we lost about seven students to suicide here in our community. It was. Odd actually, in the whole state of Utah. It was just, it was odd. Uh, there, there were lots of suicides, lots of student suicides, and a good friend of mine who was a local principal here, uh, a principal that I believe is a real innovator, uh, and definitely whose focus was on just student wellness and student excellence, and he reached out to me. By then, I had written a couple of books and, uh, he, I think his concern obviously, because he had lost a couple of students to suicide, some of my children were actually going to that school. Uh, and he just felt like all that he really had at his disposal were just reactive tools in a sense. He saw himself kind of passively waiting for crisis, and then the crisis would blow up and then everybody would kind of rush around. Did the best that they could to intervene and to, to bring peace, to restore some peace back. But he decided that he wanted to do a lot more. Um, and so we kind of had these mastermind type discussions and brainstorming sessions about what we could do, you know, whether we could add more resources or, or how could we be a little bit more proactive and truly preventative, not just. Not just act in kind of an intervention type of way. Uh, and then I reconnected with a good friend of mine who's a software engineer, true genius, uh, who helped us to kind of put this idea together. And within very quick moment, we decided that we were going to proactively engage students via text. Uh, and then later on a few years, we actually ended up not, not only continuing to do that, but actually providing a live team of support. And so throughout the year, during the summer, over the holidays, before and after school, we have this incredible team that we train that provides these students with an enthusiastic, kind, gentle, and understanding voice. We have the most comprehensive mental health resource for teens in the world. And I know that that. It can sound so silly and and cliche, but it really is. We have it, we created it, we put it together, uh, and we deliver that to schools in addition to another, to a whole suite of services. And, and I think, Russell, you were mentioning that you were a school counselor, uh, at, at one point. And that's actually one of those pieces is our hope is that we can walk into any school and immediately amplify and multiply their ability to reach out to students and to provide support. And so whether you're, you're an administrator, right? And you're looking to enhance, you know, the, the mental fitness of your students, the ex, the student success of your students, we can help you to do that. We're evidence-based. We're, we're grounded in positive psychology, growth mindset, and other cognitive behavioral strategies. And we can come and deliver just extraordinary value. Uh. Some of our stories, honestly, Russell, I mean, are just, I mean, they're just like Nobel prize winning type stuff that's just incredible. All the way from students who are just doing wonderful, right? And we're enhancing their experience all the way to students of course who are deeply troubled, right? Who are struggling with, you know, symptoms of depression or anxiety, or whose parents are divorced or they're reporting physical or sexual abuse, or they themselves are having suicidal ideation or self-harming or homicidal ideation all the way to school shootings. I mean, these are just things that we have dealt with and are dealing with throughout the country. Uh, but we're so honored. Our outcomes are just phenomenal. And it's amazing to me, you know, that we can do so much good, uh, not just through some of our amazing resources that we deliver to schools, but also through our live text-based support and our email campaigns. It's just really exciting, um, but really challenging y'all at the same time and I'm sure you're quite aware of that. So, so that's just a little bit about me and what I'm kind of doing right now, but

Thank you for that. Uh,

bet.

I say we as a society, I think appreciate the kind of efforts that you put forth in the. The health and safety of our children. It makes me a bit emotional, just, uh, hearing the story of, of you and what you do. I know how difficult it is. I just to get this, you were working as a social worker and you teamed up with the principal that was an educator. Did I get that right?

Yeah. So the genesis of our company began there. The other co-founder is, is Trent Staler. He's the software engineer. So him and I actually kind of grew the company together. Uh, this principle in, in a way is still connected with us, is still involved with us, but he was really kind of the, the force, right? Like this is happening. He came to me, we began the conversations, and then Trent and I, right. We really kind of took this and have grown it over the past seven, eight years, uh, into what it is now. Which to be very honest, it's, I, I mean, I still look at us. I mean, even though we're seven years in as really a startup, like, I mean, it's, I mean, every, every year we're just, we're creating more. We really just try to listen to school counselors. We try to listen to administrators. We try to listen to supers. We try to understand like, what's the problem, what are the problems, what are the struggles? And then we literally just come in and plug in the solutions. Uh. Obviously, and from a very biased perspective, we believe that we're just doing it better in a more complete, uh, and streamlined way than anybody else. And so we really kind of, I like to say that when, whenever we present ourselves to a school, we really like to present ourselves to them as a, as a multi-tier solution, you know, to whatever issues they're dealing with specifically. Obviously with student success, student suicide prevention, student wellness, you know, whatever word they're using, social and emotional learning opportunities. And we just come in and provide kind of the, you know, the Walmart version, well, maybe not Walmart, maybe more like Target, like a target solution or Costco solution to their, just like, to what they're looking for. And so. It's, it's cool, and especially whenever we talk to school counselors, man, I mean, we just like, we just blow their minds. They're just like, oh my gosh. Like, you know, why didn't we have this earlier? And it's, and it's incredible. And so it makes us really happy because we can connect so well with that population. And in a sense they, they're really the mental health hub of the school. Right. Even though as a school counselor, I, I dare say that they probably do less of the counseling Right. And much more of class management, graduation and things like that. They probably spend a lot of time dealing with scheduling and probably a little bit less time doing more of that kind of mental health or, or student wellness, which is probably where they would rather be. Uh, but kind of, they don't have a lot of time to do that. So for us to come in and provide that additional help and really to make them look super awesome because we can just connect them with. Really nice resources, which I will share with you Russell, for you, for your listeners, for you to go look at and take full advantage of. And you don't have to put in an email or anything like that, or it's just yours to go look at and for your parents to go look at especially and uh, we really want to give out some, some value for sure.

You said uh, was it 2017 that there were the, these number of suicides in the state, uh, that I did teach in a small private school and worked my way up, taught for many years full-time, and then worked as a counselor per for a few years. so in a small school we didn't have the kind of that the public schools do, but even in that small school, we did experience a few suicides, throughout my time there, over a period of. About 13 years or so, and it really is devastating, even to people that didn't, might not have known that individual, just to, to know somebody was in that difficult of a situation and it was unknown to everyone around them. And my mind keeps coming back to that because it's a, you mentioned, uh, the range of students that you talk with, those that are doing well, you helped you better those that are not having the best of times, you make things, uh, a little more bearable and those that are really struggling. And my thought when you said that was, you know what? It's so difficult to know which kid that is it could be the starting quarterback that is really struggling and experiencing abuse and having those ideations you talked about it, it, it could be the real quiet kid that's just really enjoying his time and. experiences it differently than others. We don't know from day to day what a, a particular individual is experiencing and thinking and feeling at that time. It's a really difficult thing I, I just can't say enough, I don't how valuable that service must be to school counselors, to parents, to students and their friends. Was there something in 2017 maybe that triggered this, this space? I don't want to get into any, I don't,

Sure.

don't, don't ask this as a political or economic or any kind of

No, no, no.

that many, in that short of timeframe, in that geographic location seems, uh, I'm sure it was an anomaly from the normal statistics to put it coldly of, of a year.

Uh, it, it, it was, I, I think that there was an increase, I think in 2016 and 2017. Uh, and interestingly enough, kind of in this mountain west region of kind of Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Nevada, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, uh, those states, interestingly enough, many times I at least, you know, compared, I think with, with other states in the country, uh, just experience a little bit of a higher, a higher rate of, of, uh, of, of teen suicide than other states. As far as the reasoning behind that, I mean, I would say that, that it definitely falls within it. I mean, there wouldn't have been anything really specific there that's happening in that state compared to others. Uh, but definitely falls within, I think about, uh, you know, I wanna say 2010 plus, right? When we begin to see a lot of these, um, mental health concerns or these mental health trends that all begin to kind of trend in a negative way. So, and, and I think we've certainly seen that now, and I think, I think it was Vi Murdoch, uh, what's his name? The, the general, um, oh my gosh, I can't think of his name anyways, but he's, he talked about the youth mental health crisis and really said that it's kind of the defining crisis of our time. Uh, and he was really talking about just this incredible amount of students. And I'm sure that as a teacher and as a school counselor, you saw that as well, where we're not just talking about, uh, really extreme behaviors, but really high numbers. Uh, of students who are reporting, uh, feeling consistently sad and hopeless. Like we're talking like, uh, like 40 to 50% of like high school and secondary age students. We're talking about, um, about 30% that reported, you know, feeling or having suicidal ideation. You know, within, within the past year we're talking about the highest levels of anxiety. We're talking about just a significant amount of issues. And there are, I, I think that there's been some really interesting research. I'm sure some of your listeners have read the book or heard of the book. Uh, the Anxious Generation where the author, I think poses some pretty interesting, and I feel well researched and well documented. Maybe some persuasive arguments as to where all of this is coming from. He actually begins that, uh, by turning the focus a little bit to our, to parents a little bit. Um, I don't think in a real blamey type of way, but I think he presents some information that's very interesting, especially to me as a parent about adolescence. Right. Uh, and specifically I think targeting the idea, right? That we, that we ourselves in, in a way are creating some of this anxiety in our kids. Some of our own overprotectiveness, some of, uh. I, I think in a sense, in some ways, we sometimes preach fear to our children, um, instead of confidence. Uh, and then of course he talks specifically about, um, phones and the incredible, uh, the quick rise of this technology and the significant impact that it's had on our children, uh, in this kind of loneliness epidemic, this epidemic of anxiety and depression. And, uh, and I think he creates a, a pretty compelling argument that that has had a truly significant impact, not just in the lives of adults, which we can certainly feel that right. Uh, but obviously in the lives of our kids. And I say that not really from a fear, fearful perspective, I'm actually quite optimistic about it. And I feel like our children will actually find a way to, to deal with that. They will respond, uh, even though right now I think that there's absolutely some negative outcome for them, I think they're gonna find a way to manage that. Unfortunately, we've placed that in their hands and I think they'll probably end up dealing with it better than we have. Uh, but they are gonna have to walk a little bit through that valley of the shadow of death a little bit and deal with some of the negatives that we can measure, right? In terms of anxiety, in terms of loneliness, in terms of social disconnection or low loss of connectivity to others. Uh, and that matters. It matters a whole lot because the best predictor that we have of short and long-term success, uh, are positive relationships. And when you have something in your hands. That continuously pulls you from where you are into some other place. Uh, we can't help but to feel somewhat disconnected. Um, and so in fact, I think that there's a quote in that book that really stuck out to me where it talked about this current registration or, or generation or these teens who are constantly elsewhere. And just think about that, right? When we're on our phones, and this includes me, I'm not here to pick on teens. I love teens, but, um, when we're on our phones, we're just elsewhere. And think about that, right? And, and I feel like something that I constantly tell people is, the quickest way for you to create misery in your current life is to wish you were somewhere else or in some way to be elsewhere. And so. Part of, you know, some of the content that we have, obviously for kids, it's really optimistic, it's really encouraging. It's, I mean, we're totally grounded in positive psychology. I'm not here to preach or to rant in a negative way, but I absolutely want to give teens some solutions to help them to be where their feet are instead of just disengaging. And that includes in like sitting down watching a movie and really just be there and watch the movie instead of like, the TV is on and I'm on this right, kind of doing my own thing and so is everybody else in the room. And that's kind of just the reality of where we are. And I, I see that around me and I recognize that there's some real loss there. Like there is, there is some real loss. I wanna be optimistic and I am, but I'm also saddened that. These incredibly amazing tools that we have just literally just envelop us into this little cocoon and we enter that world. And the negative side of that is that we exit our reality, right? And kind of in a sense, kind of dripped into this multiverse a little bit. Um, so that's kind of what he's, he's talked about. And, and I think once again, the evidence as we look over the past decade of this new technology, the evidence is very convincing that phones unfortunately have had a, a really detrimental impact in the lives of children and adults in a way. Of course, there are wonderful things and we wanna, we wanna build those, we wanna teach kids how to utilize all the wonderful things that phones provide and that, that, that, that technology is providing. Uh, but the reality is. It's also created a, a multitude of challenges for them, challenges that I believe they will cross and become better as a result. I, I think, I think they can find a way to consecrate that experience for their good. Um, but, but there's some negative pieces there that, that are challenging for them right now.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Uh, and uh, I just wanted to say, as I say in many of our episodes, what works for a high schooler that's feeling alienated or, uh, dissatisfied, depressed, any range. Of emotions or thought processes there. The things that work for a teenager that you're propounding proposing, uh, expounding, whatever the right phrase is,

Sure, sure. Sure.

for work for college age students. They work for young adults, they work for parents. Uh, they might be presented differently, but it's the same concepts. And in doing this podcast for, for many years, uh, it comes back so many times to the same basic things, but still it seems that they have to be taught a new and, and listeners come in, you know, new fan, new people to the podcast. But the, the, the concept of just being present, uh, that they, I I was formulating a question as you were talking for, my question was gonna be, if someone is feeling that way, what piece of advice would you give? And then you immediately. Uh, gave a solution for the problem you presented, so appreciate that. If you're, if you're feeling disconnected, the best solution are real relationships, uh, and to experience the now. And also I was reminded very strongly of, of Eckhart Tolles, the Power of Now. Are you

Oh yeah,

Absolutely.

Yeah, that was, it's like a top 10 for me. That's a good one.

great. Great. Yeah, a fantastic book. Uh, think it gets anywhere near the attention that it should, uh, and a really quite a simple book. Uh, and it, uh, the title encapsulates the entire book. I mean, it takes some explanation to get the concept across, but, so let's take a step back. You, you said your, your practice is based mostly in, or maybe you should tell me, you mentioned CBT, uh, and the, so your techniques and, and your theory of, of treatment based in CBT or draws from that. Is that right?

It, it is. Yeah. I, I, I think as a therapist over the years, and I do lots of things, but, uh, I mean including experiential type things, but, but I do have a, a tendency to kind of practice this type of psychology, right. That focuses, I really to say on the power of our psychology, right? The understanding that the way that we interpret the events in our lives matters more than the events themselves. Right? And it's, and it's this idea, right? It's, it's this idea that,

Yeah,

sure,

that is,

it,

strong. We can't

yeah.

We do say it frequently, but yeah. Repeat that phrase and then continue on. I apologize for interrupting your thought there.

No, no, no. Not at all. I can, lemme see if I, so the way that I would say it is, in fact, I would say it within the idea of like, that your psychology is everything, right? Like your ability to interpret. The events in your life matters more than the events themselves, right? And, and we're just these meaning making machines like that's, or these spiritual, these souls, right? That, that, and that's what we do. Uh, and when we do that incorrectly, right? When our lenses, right, when we're looking at the world from a real pessimistic perspective, uh, then life is really difficult. And actually, I mean, life is difficult even with the optimistic ones. It's just that an, an optimistic lens allows you, it, it energizes you, it keeps you lit, it keeps you going, it keeps you persistent, it keeps you moving forward. And it, whereas that kind of pessimistic, pessimistic lens, right? When we feel like events are permanent, that problems are pervasive, uh, when we feel like we're to blame and that we're powerless, like when we feel and believe that. Then there can only be one outcome, right? And that is a loss of energy. It's a loss of motivation, and we end up feeling hopeless and powerless. Right? And so even if we were just talking kind of about the difference, right? Between kind of pessimism and optimism, right? We're really talking about a cognition, right? It's, it's a pattern of thinking. It's a pattern, it's a way, a mental strategy of looking and interpreting the events in your life. And when we view things, let's say from an optimistic perspective, uh, I mean, it's just proven right? We perform better period, we perform better for longer, we perform better during challenging times, and we feel more hopeful. We, our mood has improved. Our sense of energy and motivation is improved simply because we can learn. And I think that's a really key piece of just cognitive behavioral therapy and really positive psychology or growth mindset. Psychology is this idea that we're not these rigid. Creatures. Right? I'm not just like a pessimist or naturally unhappy, right? The idea here is that we can learn these things, we can learn optimism, we can learn to have a better perspective. We can modify the lenses through which we see the world so that we can see a better, more helpful reality, right? And so, cognitive therapy, right, is really born from this concept, right? That when we can change our cognition, when we can change our interpretation of life, then our life changes. The events in our life changes. Uh, another, you know, fabulous book, uh, you know, man's Search for Meaning, which I'm sure you've heard of, or I'm sure that your readers have listened to, right? It is all about that, right? It's about taking something right that is so immensely difficult for us suffering, right? But viewing that suffering. From a lens that is a little bit more empowering, right? That allows us to not just be resilient, but actually allows us to grow, right? Which is pretty daring actually, right? I mean, whether you're thinking about, you know, man's Search for meeting or some of our incredible veterans or soldiers or, uh, active, uh, you know, police officers or people who are doing some of these crisis things, those are really challenging, right? I mean, I can't imagine there being something that's more terrible for the human psyche than just combat. Like, it just has to be so unbelievably difficult. And yet the goal, and I say this with incomplete ignorance, that I have not been in that place, but with total compassion and hope for those individuals that I've had the pleasure and honor of helping and treating and assisting in my profession. But my goal for them is never to, if I dare to be really bold, my, my ultimate goal, and I might not even say it out loud to them, it isn't just to be resilient and get back to normal. My goal for them is, man, I, I wanna take everything that's, that has occurred to you. And in some way I wanna synthesize that and somehow make that I, I want to, the word that I'll use right, is to consecrate or to make it holy for you. Like I want you to come out better, wiser, stronger. Like, I want that experience to somehow like become this beautiful thing, right? Like beauty from ashes sort of a concept. Um, and I say that once again. I fully acknowledge totally ignorantly like I. I don't know their experience. I certainly don't pretend to know, and I would never say that I do, but that's my wish for them as their friend, to be honest. Like, I wanna take everything you've gone through and I wanna somehow like mix that in. And in the end, I want it to be awesome. I want it to be beautiful. I want it to be a source of strength instead of a deficit for you. Like a hundred percent. And I wanna do that same thing for myself, uh, in, in that respect. But anyways, I, I, I think cognitive therapy, I wanna say that that's kind of like the golden standard of therapy. I mean, it's well documented, it's well-researched, the evidence backs it up, right? When we are able to change, right? Our interpretation of events, our thinking, the way that we view our external reality, um, we do better, right? When we can recognize some of our distorted. Thinking, right? Whether it be our, you know, our catastrophizing, right? Or whether it be like the way that we generalize events, you know, well, this happened to me then that means it's gonna happen to me now and it's gonna happen forever and ever and ever and ever. Well, that's how the brain runs. That's how the brain, the brain predicts future events. The problem is, it's not true, but this is what the brain does all the time. And so by helping people recognize some of these fallacies, right, some of these patterns of thought that generally originate in the brain, but that aren't productive, they're not helpful. They're kind of originating from a survivalistic organ, right? That's meant to protect us. But that, in a sense, kind of fails to help us to thrive, right? Or to really grow and progress. And that's where, you know, I think positive psychology can come in. That's where a lot of. Other philosophies or even the world's religions can come in, right? Where we're really looking for a way to thrive instead of just focusing on the negative aspects of the human condition. Right? Uh, which has also been kind of a really interesting shift in psychology, you know, for really for the entire history of psychology. And psychology has really been focused on the human defic deficiencies, right? I mean, we've written five versions of the diagnostic statistical manual, right? That basically list every possible diagnostic that, that, that we can have that's wrong with this, right? All the way from how depressed we are, OCD, obsessed, I mean everything, all the personality disorders and positive psychology has really come in, you know, over these past few decades and really said, Hey, we need to make a shift right away from just listing the human deficiencies and really talking about. Not just what we're doing well, but more importantly, how do we go about living a really good or wonderful or meaningful or purposeful life and figuring out how to do that. And so it's really moving away from this medical model of therapy, right? Which is, you know, you break your arm, you go to the doctor, right? We're kind of almost passively waiting for crisis to occur to what I feel is a much more preventative, proactive, focused on how we can really live wonderful lives that we feel good about, that we feel proud of. Even when there is sadness, even when there is grief, even when there is anxiety. So I, I'm quite the fan. I think that that movement has been wonderful. Uh, and interestingly enough, it's, it's reflective of some, of, some of the Eastern philosophical teachings. It's really, you know, it really connects well with even some of the religious, you know, whether they be Christianity or Judaism. And so it's, it's really important. I, I feel like psychology has made a real positive turn at, at least in that respect. Yeah, that's probably more than you wanted to know, but geez.

no, I, I appreciate all those insights. When I, when I first heard the term positive psychology, not that many years ago, really. I think I interchanged it in my head with pop psychology

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

kind of dismissed it and I'm, I'm wondering if our listeners might feel the same way. Um, yeah, positive psychology is very, is is interesting because it, I used the terms in a episode a few weeks ago. It's eclectic and pragmatic. Um, whatever works from whatever source, uh, to some extent, uh, what works well for the client it came from, is probably a good thing for that client. And I, I appreciate you adding in, uh, a quick blurb there about medicine even,

sure.

uh, uh, modern religions, whatever they might be. Because there are different things that work for different people. And if you're tool, you know, to the, to the man with a hammer, every problem is a nail. Uh,

For sure.

you have enough things in your toolkit. You can find something that works for the person that's struggling, you can find the right thing for them. And I think positive psychology, uh, maybe comes closest to that of, of most anything we've seen in, in our lifetime of finding the thing that works best for the particular situation. And going from there. I also appreciate what you said about thriving. Uh, you know, we shouldn't be satisfied with being, okay, there's a commercial out now that's fine. Is not okay. Or something O okay is not good enough, or I forget exactly. I don't even know what it's for. I've seen it once or twice, but it basically, you know, average, um, making it from day to day isn't what life is about. we should, we should look for, uh, something better than that. Taking all those things that make us the person who we are and funneling them thrive and excel in, in. The appropriate areas that may be business, that may be most likely it's in personal relationships and, uh, the way we see the world and deal with others, but could be in other, could be in academics, could be in sports, could be in a number of things as well. But it still comes back to that fundamental piece of relationships and presence,

Sure. And, and I, yeah, and, and I think I'll interject there for just a quick moment. I, I, I think what they're attempting to do, right, specifically with, uh, you know, positive psychology and that kind of movement, it's. I mean, there's, it's, it's kind of the, what people call kind of the fourth wave of psychology, right? The first kind of being psychodynamic and Freud and you know, then behaviorism and then kind of humanism, which is really more similar to what positive psychology is. And then, you know, positive psychology really being that fourth wave, that fourth movement, uh, with really that emphasis. And, and I think what they're attempting to do, and I feel like they're doing quite a good job. And I appreciate you differentiating between, you know, kind of, you know, what, what people would consider kind of positive psychology, right? And that movement, that's evidence-based, it's, it's built on practice, uh, versus kind of pop psychology, right? Which, which sometimes are these kind of terms, right, that arise, right? Whether it be from kind of a popular speaker or something on social media or whatever, right? And sometimes they're, they're useful. They can even be kind of connected to maybe a deeper truth. Uh, but I find that a lot of times they are not, um, and, and can actually create a mental expectation that becomes an obstacle. Um, you know, and, and so I mean, I'll give you kind of a, and this is a simple example. Uh, and, and I know that as soon as I say it, I'm gonna, I'm gonna create some problems for myself, but that's okay. I'll back it up and I'll, I'll, I'll do the best I can. But it's kind of like, think of it like the self-care movement, right? You know, there's, there's a lot of talk about, you know, self-care and you gotta care for the self. And, and of course that that's true, right? Russell, like, I'm not here to say like, you know, you should treat yourself like trash and don't do anything for yourself, because that's just ridiculous, right? Uh, and obviously we, we have to care for ourselves. We have to care about our lives. Um, but the reality is that other care. Is actually a much better mood boost, right? So if you're interested in raising the way that you feel like improving your wellness, your meaning, your mattering in life, the quickest path to that isn't self-care. It's other care. So the more the, yeah, the, the, the less time we spend obsessed about our own happiness, and the more time we spend, right? Caring for others, doing things and being engaged in things that matter, whether to your life or in things that are larger than you. The evidence says like that's the quickest path. Happiness. Like now, the quickest path now is that, and so yes, you can have your bubble bath and you can get your massage and you can do these wonderful things, of course, like do those things. But just realize, right, that what the adv, what the evidence is actually saying is in the short and long term, that other care is actually a better form of treatment instead of self-care. Right? And I know that this sounds a little competitive, right? I'm kind of like, well, you know, this is better than the other and this is better. And we do have a way, we have a tendency, right, to view things within this like, well, one is better, or which one is the firth? Or which, and actually it doesn't need to be like that. We, we have this, I don't know why we we're always trying to, to place things kind of in this hierarchical way, and I don't think it needs to be that way. Like I, I think caring for our lives. Of massive importance and of equal importance is making sure that our focus is engaged in caring, in altruistic type pursuits. Because that's just what the evidence shows. And so, and I mean, there's a million of these, right? Where we're just, you know, like the, the whole idea of like, you know, live your truth or that term doesn't even make sense to me because the moment you put yours before truth, like it's no longer truth. Like it's, I mean, you could say, you could say like, you know, live your opinion or your beliefs, sure do that. But, but, but don't mistake yours and truth, even though I suppose at some point it could be right. We're now we're talking about kind of philosophical objective or absolute truth, but I, I just think we get ourselves in the trouble and it's quite arrogant, I think, to think that. To kind of label that erroneously. And so little things like that. And, and these are more like soapbox type things for me, but I am, I have to say, right, I mean, as a therapist of 20 years, like wordsmithing is kind of what I do.

Right.

we speak matter. They matter because they provide structure to our reality. Like it's how we say it, how we say it, how we think it, how we frame it becomes the reality. And so communicating in ways that I feel are helpful, encouraging. And are actually built kind of on a foundation of truth matters. And I think when we don't, I, I think we actually harm ourselves and others a little bit. And I, I don't wanna be disparaging 'cause that's not useful either, but things like that bother me a little bit because I, I think they create expectations that don't help us. Like I, I'll give you another example, Russ, and I'm probably boring you to pieces here, but,

No. No.

and this is not a, an uncommon thing, right? I mean, I, I've, I've got this, just these five unbelievable kids, right? And, and, um, you know, and, and here, for example, in my house, like we, we don't, we don't say the F word. And, and the f word doesn't mean like the f bomb. It, it's like, it's the word fair. I feel like fairness is an incorrect construct, right? It's just not a good construct. Right? And I'll add to that f word, to the word, the D word, which is deserve. I don't do deserve, I don't do deserve, and I don't do fairness, because those two constructs create an incorrect expectation in our minds that ultimately leads to bitterness. It leads to us being upset. It leads to weird comparisons that aren't helpful. And so I tell my kids all the time, like I, I honestly just don't even use that word. I, I just, I try to find a different one. Whether it's, I try to be just, I try to be equitable. I try to be. Wise. Uh, but I don't, I don't do fair. I'm not here to make things look the same between you. My kids, like, if I want to treat this one this way and give them this and this one this way, because I think that's the best thing that I can do, then that's exactly what I'll do. And I, I don't work within that fairness construct. Right. And the deserving one, it's, it's basically a ploy to get you to buy something. It's like, you know, you deserve this. Yeah. I don't, I don't do that. Doesn't make sense to me. It once again creates a, I think an an odd expectation of me being entitled or deserving of something. If I want something, then I better get out there and work for it and do the best I can to get it. But I don't, I don't do deserves, yeah. I don't do deserves

Yeah, that's, uh,

so.

great parenting device advice. Great boss advice. Uh, great coach, great teacher advice. Anybody that has, people that they're working with, uh, in a, in a, some kind of leadership position. Yeah, whatever it might be. So many things in there. Uh, I wanna go back and pick up just a few questions.

I love it.

of my own. I love. Live your truth in scratching out the, your, uh, just don't we simplify that and just live truth,

I like that.

uh, because your truth, you know, and I, you couch that. And of course there's some, some understanding there that

Yeah.

can't live another person's life, but if I live real truth, my truth will be truth. That, that's very strong. I, I just like that phrase, scratch out, leave out your live truth. Um, and part of what you said, a good part of that reminded me, you talked about other care, uh, reminded me of Stephen Covey's, uh, I believe I'm attributing the, the phrase correctly. You know, don't try to be understood, try to understand.

Yeah,

and that's, that's the same concept as other care, I believe. I think you're taking a little bit further with more than. Um, the one is more like in, in a conversational basis, but you are talking about in a real hands-on relational way to seek to help others in some way, and that is the quickest way to happiness and self-satisfaction. That's, that's quite strong. I appreciate that.

you bet. Yeah. That's a great, uh, I, I love that book. I think that was one of his seven habits, right? Was seek first to understand then to be understood. Um, interestingly enough, right? That was. I think that that book was significant enough because it created that little bit of a shift, right? From kind of this, the psychology of, of illness, right? To a psychology of success, right? Seven habits of highly effective people. Like that was kind of that paradigm shift to let's look at what brings joy instead of just, you know, how do we, 'cause in a way, it's, it's one thing to help someone feel less sad or less anxious, and it's a whole other to help somebody feel joy or to live a, a li or, or like to feel confident. Those are two different things.

that's such a huge difference and we don't always see that. Yeah. Um, yeah, again, to the, the thriving to, to thrive in life, you know, just feeling better is not good enough. uh, we should move beyond that and not be satisfied with the average. That's fantastic. I did want to go back one, uh, man's search for meaning the Viktor Frankl, is that correct? Yeah. I just wanted to make sure I had that in my head and I wanted to, uh. I sure that's the book that we were referencing there. It's interesting I didn't plan the segue, but, uh, your comment reminded me of Stephen Covey, and we're getting close to, uh, the timeframe here. I usually end the podcast with two questions, and one of them relates to Covey's book, the Seven Habits. Uh, do you find in your life that you have certain habits that, uh, and, and could be what, what frequently comes up is a habit of gratitude, gratitude journaling, or a morning stack, um, know, certain things that people do, uh, a uh, set aside time for reading and learning, you know, a, a cold plunge, whatever it might be. On a physical side, it might be a spiritual. Uh, do you have things in your life that you'd be willing to share that you would recommend as far as a habit stack or in light of Stephen Covey's book, that Habits of Successful People? Uh. Maybe pulling from the, the whole concept of positive psychology, which enc, which encapsulates a lot of things there that you could recommend, uh, for listeners to, consider incorporating their life to help improve their, their mindset, their self concept, and, and so forth.

Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll share a couple that have been, uh, I think a part of my life. Um, and I would say, uh, I mean I, I, I'm a family man. I, I've got, I mean, my spouse and, and my five children and that, so I would say caring for them. I, I have to just say like, I mean, that, that is, there is a hierarchy there for me, right. And, and that lands squarely as, as number one, right? And, and when I feel like I am doing well there, I, I think that frees my mind to do well in these other areas. Right? And so this, this kind of. Private success, uh, precedes some of my other success, I think is act, interestingly enough, we're, we're quoting Stephen Covey, I think that's what he said, private successes, proceed public successes. And so that's a really important one. It reminds me of another quote, you know, like, you know, no, what was it? Like no other success can compensate for failure in the home kind of concept. And so that, that's a really key piece for me is I just, man, when that part of my life is, is not well, uh, it's, it's my mood, my focus is impacted. And so what I would say is do what you can to invest deeply there. Simply be even from just a, a hedonistic way. Like, just because when it isn't, the impact is so. It's, it's, it's powerful. Um, but, but I would say more of a habit. Uh, and I, and, and I'm not obviously perfect at this all the time, and sometimes significantly better than others. Uh, and I'll take this one from Tony Robbins. I don't, I'm sure you all, everybody knows who Tony is. He's just like a fabulous speaker. And, but he talked about, I mean, years and years ago. I, I remember listening to one of his little CD collections and, and he talked about this hour of power, which is kind of a habit stack or, or kind of a, a, uh, a miracle morning type idea of just when I begin my days. Um, and this is just my own personal, right when I begin my days with a run, uh, either alone, preferably with friends, like it's even better when I do it with friends. But even when I do it alone and I try to stack. Some learning during that run, whether I'm listening to a podcast or a book, uh, or even something that's kind of spiritual. Uh, and by the time I put, before I even eat a piece of toast or, or have a yogurt in the morning, like I feel like my day is a success. Uh, and, and that impacts my mood so much in the mornings that I almost become annoying. And, and I, and I say this jokingly because my, my wife will say that to me and she's such an awesome person, but she's just like, oh my gosh, you're like, you're so annoying right now. And it's in part because I'm just like. Joyous. Like I just feel good like in the morning when I create this little miracle morning. And it's a combination of you doing something physical, right? Something educational, something spiritual, whatever that is, whatever, whatever your practice looks like. Whether that's beginning your day with a walk, with a swim, with meditation, with yoga, with a walk with your partner or your spouse or with your dog, whatever that is. But I'm telling you like just crank that engine and get it going and reap the benefits. So I would definitely say do what you can. Do what you can. And I'm not here to create pressure for you. Like, and by the way, I am not here to create happiness for you to be happy. Like you gotta be happy. But I would just say if you can find a way to add a miracle morning to your life, um, a little routine, whether it's. 15 minutes, 30 minutes, uh, I think you'll see real impact, like real impact, like in your life, in, in your success, in your mood, potentially even in your relationships. Uh, so I would definitely say that. And then the other suggestion that I would give, and I think positive psychology is, is I think doing a wonderful job. I think talking specifically about the way that we connect to people finding purpose and meaning in lives. And I would just say just as your friend, like find a way to connect to things that are just larger than you. And the evidence is so overwhelmingly good there. And I, and that could be a variety of things, right? All the way to a sports community, a community in your area, a group in your area, a sports team, wherever you are. Obviously like communities of religion, right? Or, or other philosophies. Like the evidence is just so good, right? When you find those things that are larger than you and you connect to those, and perhaps even more importantly, when you connect to those people in those communities, right? I would just suggest to you find something like that and join it and be a part of it, um, because the evidence is really, really good at not only that, increasing your overall sense of joy, meaning purpose, and happiness. Uh, but it's also really important for you to just be within those little communities and creating these little networks that there's a, a great little, um, quote and I'll massacre it, but it's something to the effect of like. Um, people multiply your, well, let's see, relationships. Multiply your joys and divide your sorrows, something like that. Positive relationships. Multiply your joys and divide your sorrows, and that's what you're doing. Um, and there might be some of you that are like, well, you're a, well, what if I hate people? Or what if I'm not very good socially? Or what if I'm this And, and, uh. I would just respond with nothing but just love and compassion. But I would also gently challenge you a little bit, and I would challenge you right away with this in a cognitive way by saying, um, you're, you're describing yourself as this rigid individual that doesn't change or as enabled to change. And the reality is that we're the most sophisticated pieces of machinery in the universe. Like, and it's not survival of the fittest, it's survival of the most adaptable. Like that's why you've survived this far. 'cause we adapt, we evolve, we grow. And so I would say yes, more challenging, more difficult, perhaps you even lack some aptitude or whatever. But I'm just telling you, this is what the evidence says. Take yourself, drop yourself in the middle of these people, places and things and do what you can to engage and create a little network there because it's absolutely lifesaving. So. Anyways, couple of thoughts.

fantastic. I appreciate your, um, consistently presenting evidence-based material. Uh, what it, it's really a, it's a phrase that we have in the podcast description that it's, it is evidence-based, it's not, and maybe that's a difference in positive psychology and pop psychology.

sure, sure.

Tony Robbins. You know, when I first heard of Tony Robbins, I thought, yeah, it's pop psychology. It's somebody, uh, you know, he is a good, he is, he's charismatic. He,

Yes,

well. He can control a room. He can, but,

I.

as I've learned a little bit more about him, I find that he is, uh, he has some powerful things that can really be beneficial for a lot of people. Uh. And one last thing on my part, you, you mentioned part of a bigger story. One of my earliest, one of the first record interviews that I did, I don't like to call 'em interviews, uh, conversations I did on the podcast, uh, was with a businessman in, in Minneapolis, and he has a, a, a small business, uh, 50 employees or so. But the employees that are in the company, no one has ever left his employee.

Wow.

And that, that to me is astounding. Right? Uh, and he's been in business for many years, so it's not a, you know, it's not been six months. Some of them have been with him for 10 or 15 years, if I remember correctly. So I asked him about that and he, he referred to that too. People wanna be part of a bigger story. He references college football. Uh, or any of the things that you talked about, but people wanna be recognized in that. And it's necessary for a lot of people in different ways, whatever it might be. You know, if you hate sports, there's something,

Sure.

that makes you want to be part of a bigger story. And he used that in his business philosophy make the office part of a bigger story for his people. And so it wasn't just, you know, come to work, get it over with and, and be gone. It was, uh, more of a, uh, touchy feely is the wrong phrase, but, uh, brought in a lot of those psychological, uh, concepts into the office to make it not just a job. and I found that very interesting that you referred to something very, very similar to what he had said. Uh. I think, you know, in, I have two questions that I do at the end, uh, uh, one about habits and one about advice, and I think you gave the exact advice that you would've if I rephrase that question. So, uh, we've got the two final answers that we normally go for. What I didn't ask you about, and I'll give you a chance here to, to plug your website, uh, to

Oh sure.

you want and give us a closing word. If you have anything left. Uh, you said you've written, you've authored the book or two.

Yeah, I have.

And we haven't talked about those at all. So tell us about your books. Tell us about your website. Uh, this is not, limited to a locality. Best I can tell from looking at the website. So if schools, if parents are interested in finding out more, they can look@schoolpulse.org. you provide individual services, uh, online or even for those local in Utah, please feel free to share something about that. And. Uh, leave us with a parting word and, and we'll sign off and let our, uh, listeners

Yeah.

some of this great information that we presented to 'em today.

Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you for, for that opportunity. Yeah. I, I, I've written a couple of books. One of them was Mind Over Gray Matter, um, and that was the first one that I wrote. And, and I just have to say that was. Such a meaningful experience for me. I, I, I wanna say that maybe I was 12 or 13 years into my private practice then, and, and it was so awesome. Uh, I, I think to just take some of this stuff that was just marinating up there in my mind, some of my experiences and just putting them down on paper. And I think there's a part of me that always wanted to do that. My mom was an unpublished, but in my opinion, just an incredible writer, poet. And so I think that there was a part of me that, that wanted to do a little bit of that. And, and I did. And then I followed that up with No Thy Selfie, which is kind of a, a book more for teens. Uh, we're actually kind of an Amazon bestseller, which was kind of fun. Uh, and, and I. And I did that. So those are the two books is Mind Over Gray Matter and Know Thy Selfie, and they're available on Amazon, of course. But, uh, and then of course School Pulse. I obviously, we are doing, we're serving schools, schools, districts, private schools, state departments even. And our goal really is to change the paradigm. I, I, I feel like we're, we can be a little enamored with just the risk factors, right? I, I feel like a lot of our interventions at the school level are just interventions, meaning we're, we're just, we're just kind of a step. Too late. Uh, and all of it matters. Like I, I, I, once again, I'm, I'm not trying to be critical. All that I'm suggesting is a move from intervention, which I think is where we live, right? It's kind of that medical model that I described and kind of this paradigm shift towards proactive prevention, right? Which really falls. It's a move away from what are the risk factors? What are the signs of suicides to what are the protective factors? Like, what are the things, right? What are the kinds of attitudes, behaviors, psychology, mindsets that we could adopt into our lives, right? That could actually insulate and protect us from suicide, from depression, from anxiety, from post-traumatic stress. And, and I say that right as a bit of a social scientist myself. To recognize that, I know we can't ultimately end all of those things, but the evidence really is good, right? That when we have these protective areas, right, flowing nicely in our lives, right, that they really do protect us, right? And yes, you know, the quarterback or the cheerleader or the this, those people are just as vulnerable too. But the reality is they have a, they may have, and other people do like a lot of protective elements that make it less likely than they will. And that's really what we wanna bring to the school, is we want to help students succeed academically. We want them to participate and to be engaged. We want them to improve their behavior and decision making, right? So that the culture and the overall environment at the school is better. And that's really what we do, but we wanna do it right. With that less focus on just the how do we stop suicide, which is a good focus and we deal with that. But man, how do we build mental fitness? How do we build excellence? How do we build an awesome, an extraordinary mindset that would ultimately lead to an extraordinary life? Like that's where we live. And if as a school or a district you're interested in really doing that, my humble pitch is we are the solution like for that better. And, and I think some of our resources will show that. And, and, and I'll share that with you. And as far as just, you know, any, you can reach out to me, you can go to school post.org. You can reach me at Iuri@schoolpost.org as well. It's spelled IURI. But, um, but honestly, I, I'm just, psychology has been so fun for me. It. I think it's been a positive in my life. Uh, I feel like it can be that way towards other people as well. Um, but I would, I would say to you it's, I think you actually even made kind of a statement. Um, you know, specifically, it's almost as if like, it's, it's not enough to just be okay. The, the concept of thriving, right? Like the idea that we can thrive, not just survive, not just hang on. Uh, and I think beyond even that, right? And I'm not here to create some pressure, right? Like, you, you have to be happy, you know, at, at like a seven or an eight or don't be satisfied for a three or a four. And, and, and I, and I think really what I, what I'm trying, what I, what I like to talk about is kind of this concept of emotional maturity, right? Which is, it's our ability to experience the full spectrum of emotion, right? All the way from the negative tens. To the positive tens. Right? And, and certainly we want to function more right up here on the positives because when we are right, you know, it's, it's like that Copernican switch, right? Like the idea that happiness or success revolves around happiness, not the other way around. And so, obviously we want to promote wellness. We wanna promote optimism. We wanna promote positive feelings, uh, and exciting feelings in our lives because we just seem to do better. We're more patient, we're more resilient, we deal with things better. Um, but it's also important to realize that there's a real, um, that there's real meaning in some of those dark undertones, right? In some of, of those pieces in our lives. And so it's, it's less of a pressure to be here and more maybe that realization that every moment. Can prepare us for the very next moment. Right. Um, I'm reminding, in fact, speaking of Tony Robbins, you brought him to mind that he used to tell this really awesome story about Nelson Mandela when he was, you know, kind of unjustly in prison for like 37 years. And that he had this interview, uh, you know, with the reporter once he had been released and he was president and he had, you know, trying to abolish apartheid in South Africa. And he has this interview, um, allegedly. I actually have never quite found a record of that, but I've told this story a million times because I think it's so powerful, you know, and this basically this reporter him, you know, how did you handle the, you know, the, the injustice? You know, how did you deal with the suffering, right? And, and allegedly he says what? Suffering, right? It was preparation, right? And that concept, right, that we can somehow swallow stuff, right. And like synthesize it in there and then to have it come out as preparation is magnificent. Right? Is, is, is That's the extraordinary mindset. That's how we become invincible in a sense, right? Is, is, is we have a, a, a psychology that just is willing, it's open, it's soft hearted. It's, it's kind of got that growth mindset concept to it and it allows us to just bounce back, not just to that normal, but to bounce back as preparation, right? It's actually preparing me for more. So anyways, some fun things to think about.

Absolutely. Thank you so much. You know, I'm, I'm really looking forward to editing, uh, this episode because there are a lot of little pieces in there that. Uh, we could go back and probably spend another half an episode on

You bet.

that you ran through some really strong things there, and I, I appreciate that.

You bet.

Um, when I was growing up, I grew up in church. Uh, we were a very religious family and my pastor at the time frequently used the illustration of if there's a dangerous road, uh, with a, a steep drop off a cliff beside the road. His approach to working with families and with the members of the church to put a guardrail by the road, not to put a hospital at the bottom of the cliff. Uh,

really good.

which is exactly, I think in line with what you say, prevention and proactive, not reactive treatment. It's difficult to do,

It is.

but, but so is reactive treatment. Uh. Just some very great stuff there. I really appreciate your time. Uh, I hope the listeners got a portion of the benefit out of this that I did because I, I really learned a lot. Um, listeners, this was Iuri Mellow, and I'm gonna spell it because it's, uh, it is Portuguese, right? IURI, Iuri Melo, MELO, uh, author licensed clinical social worker, but co-founder of school plus.org. Uh, available through that website if you'd like to contact him directly by email. just some. Fantastic. Uh, did I say author? Couple two books there that, uh, we have out there that we should, we should look at as well. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it greatly and wish you great success, uh, with school plus.org and, and the many other. Ventures, you know, and, uh, we need to do a follow up. Maybe you can get in touch with me. If you ever wanna do a follow up interview. I'd like to find out more about, uh, your, uh, adventure therapy. Is that what you called

Oh, yeah, yeah. Adventure based therapy. Yeah.

Yeah. It

kind of what I've call it.

Bound. Is it similar to that?

Uh, it, it, it, it is, but Outward Bound, it's kind of done in like in group settings or things like that. And, and for me, it's, it's one-on-one, right? It's, I mean, we'll leave my office or we will, we'll meet outside, or we'll meet at the climbing gym and we're just, we're doing extraordinary things. It's, I think therapy can sometimes be a little stale or I would definitely say for adolescents and teenagers, it's a little bit threatening. Uh, but climbing is not. Climbing is not. And, and, and I think sometimes parents, you know, really want their child to come in and to gain some benefit. And, but a lot of times for teens, the benefit isn't, you know, that I'm gonna give them some like, really powerful like cognitive jewel, right. And it's just gonna be like, uh, for teens it, it, it has to feel great when they're with a therapist. Like it's, it's, I think it's almost a little bit more emotional than it is cognitive for them becomes more cognitive as they become adults.

Mm-hmm.

And, and the climbing experience, like I said, is just, it's, it's so easy. It's, it's like naturally a trusting environment. I mean, there's just some real cool things that happen very quickly. You know, when I'm belaying a kid that's 50 feet up in the air, like there's some trust that hap and by the way Yeah. And they're doing that to me as well, which is kind of wild. So it's kind of wild.

Uh, and I, I thought of this several times during the process, uh, of your describing the, the system there. It really is a, a great on-ramp for the kids that need something more extensive or something more in depth. We talk occasionally about the social morays or the hindrances to someone saying, I'm in counseling. I need counseling. I'm thinking about getting counseling. You know, we talk about, well call it coaching or call it mentoring, and you don't have that social stigma. But I could see, you know, if I've been getting text messages and emails from an organization that have been helpful, that that's just a great on-ramp to, to lower some of those barriers and to make those students as those young people just, uh, more willing to take the next step when they need it. I think it's a great service you're providing. As I said, I hope you have great success. Uh, maybe you can expand and provide that next for college age students and then on up into young professionals because I think the process is very strong, uh, and I think people at all stages of life, there's, there's a great bit of benefit there that can be had for a number of people. Alright, listeners, Iuri Mellow author, co-founder of School Plus I keep wanting say School Plus, but it's school pulse.org. Thanks for being with us today, listeners. We'll see you next week. Have a great one. Bye.