1 00:00:03,625 --> 00:00:06,985 Intro: Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of The Articulate Fly. 2 00:00:07,805 --> 00:00:11,465 Intro: On this episode, friend and author Steve Ramirez returns to the podcast. 3 00:00:12,125 --> 00:00:16,045 Intro: We have a great conversation about lessons from the river, and Steve updates 4 00:00:16,045 --> 00:00:20,405 Intro: us on his latest book, Casting Homeward. I think you're really going to enjoy it. 5 00:00:20,725 --> 00:00:23,785 Intro: But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. 6 00:00:24,685 --> 00:00:29,245 Intro: If you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and leave 7 00:00:29,245 --> 00:00:33,025 Intro: us a rating review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. 8 00:00:33,865 --> 00:00:37,905 Intro: And I hope everyone had a safe and relaxing 4th of July with family and friends. 9 00:00:38,285 --> 00:00:42,685 Intro: I want to thank all of our listeners for their patience as we took last week 10 00:00:42,685 --> 00:00:47,285 Intro: off to attend the Outdoor Writers Association of America's Field Fest in Johnson City, Tennessee. 11 00:00:48,245 --> 00:00:52,025 Intro: It was great to spend time with colleagues and get more content for the show. 12 00:00:52,785 --> 00:00:57,505 Intro: And we will be in Orlando later this week for ICAST if you will be too hit us 13 00:00:57,505 --> 00:01:01,765 Intro: up on social media if you want to connect it's always great to meet listeners on the road, 14 00:01:02,745 --> 00:01:07,085 Intro: and we recently released an interview only show The Long Haul with the Articulate 15 00:01:07,085 --> 00:01:11,085 Intro: Fly so if you prefer to listen to the Articulate Fly without the fishing reports, 16 00:01:11,625 --> 00:01:17,145 Intro: just search The Long Haul in your favorite podcatcher now on to the interview. 17 00:01:18,245 --> 00:01:20,905 Marvin: Well Steve welcome back to the Articulate Fly lie. 18 00:01:21,985 --> 00:01:25,985 Steve: It is truly my pleasure. You know that. And thank you for inviting me. 19 00:01:26,205 --> 00:01:29,525 Marvin: Oh, gosh, I love our conversations. You know, folks, it's kind of funny. 20 00:01:29,585 --> 00:01:33,285 Marvin: We were talking before we started recording, and it's been almost two years 21 00:01:33,285 --> 00:01:35,005 Marvin: since Steve was on the last time. 22 00:01:35,105 --> 00:01:38,905 Marvin: And there's been a little bit of water under the bridge. 23 00:01:39,025 --> 00:01:43,385 Marvin: I know you've several more books in the casting series, and I know you've got 24 00:01:43,385 --> 00:01:46,085 Marvin: the last of that series is going to get released in September. 25 00:01:47,345 --> 00:01:48,665 Steve: Yes, September 3rd. 26 00:01:50,205 --> 00:01:54,545 Marvin: And so I'm trying to remember if it was two years ago you had two of the books 27 00:01:54,545 --> 00:01:56,785 Marvin: in this series out is that right or was it just one. 28 00:01:58,541 --> 00:02:02,901 Steve: I think it two were out and the third coming out last time we spoke. 29 00:02:03,081 --> 00:02:06,241 Steve: So Casting Onward, which since we've spoke, 30 00:02:06,481 --> 00:02:12,541 Steve: has been the last number of months, number one on Amazon, which is a beautiful 31 00:02:12,541 --> 00:02:20,461 Steve: thing, and was highlighted in the movie Mending the Line, which is why it had a second life. 32 00:02:21,061 --> 00:02:25,381 Steve: And then Casting Onward was the second book. I think those two were out when 33 00:02:25,381 --> 00:02:27,881 Steve: we spoke last. Casting Seaward was coming out. 34 00:02:28,541 --> 00:02:33,661 Steve: And it's now been out for two years. And since I seem to be running it about 35 00:02:33,661 --> 00:02:39,361 Steve: one book every two years, casting Homeward, which is the final in the casting 36 00:02:39,361 --> 00:02:42,001 Steve: series with Lions Press, that comes out September 3rd. 37 00:02:42,661 --> 00:02:46,941 Steve: And it's on pre-order right now for people that want to pre-order. And I'm really excited. 38 00:02:47,621 --> 00:02:50,501 Marvin: Yeah, it's super neat too. And I know, you know, because we've talked a little 39 00:02:50,501 --> 00:02:54,681 Marvin: bit, that you're sort of meditating on what the next project will be because 40 00:02:54,681 --> 00:02:57,561 Marvin: you are in perpetual motion a little bit like I am. 41 00:02:58,921 --> 00:03:01,821 Steve: Yes and i i basically know 42 00:03:01,821 --> 00:03:05,041 Steve: the next project it's not something i'm 43 00:03:05,041 --> 00:03:08,721 Steve: going to go public with yet except to say that i'm excited about 44 00:03:08,721 --> 00:03:11,601 Steve: it it's challenging and it's the kind 45 00:03:11,601 --> 00:03:14,841 Steve: of thing uh you and i've talked before my writing is 46 00:03:14,841 --> 00:03:18,861 Steve: is a lot about destination both in 47 00:03:18,861 --> 00:03:22,101 Steve: reality and philosophically and um 48 00:03:22,101 --> 00:03:26,881 Steve: so yeah it's an expansion on even though it's it's the start of something completely 49 00:03:26,881 --> 00:03:32,901 Steve: new from the casting series it's a great expansion um in a wonderful i think 50 00:03:32,901 --> 00:03:37,241 Steve: it's going to be a great adventure for everyone and they get to do it with me 51 00:03:37,241 --> 00:03:39,881 Steve: without um you know the mosquitoes and, 52 00:03:40,681 --> 00:03:43,441 Steve: and the bears yeah and. 53 00:03:43,441 --> 00:03:48,221 Marvin: And while they wait they can always read your column in fly fisherman magazine. 54 00:03:49,859 --> 00:03:55,059 Steve: And that's true. And thank you for bringing that up. I'm actually quite open 55 00:03:55,059 --> 00:04:00,739 Steve: about the fact that I feel very fortunate and love it that I'm a small part 56 00:04:00,739 --> 00:04:02,899 Steve: of the Fly Fisherman Magazine family. 57 00:04:04,199 --> 00:04:05,139 Steve: I do love it. 58 00:04:05,319 --> 00:04:09,059 Marvin: Yeah, it's a neat magazine. And I think Ross has done a really good job of kind 59 00:04:09,059 --> 00:04:11,159 Marvin: of bringing that magazine into the 21st century. 60 00:04:12,419 --> 00:04:17,939 Steve: See that's i'm gonna say stuff and i'm up front ross is my friend and and i'm 61 00:04:17,939 --> 00:04:21,899 Steve: and uh so i have to say that right up front but he's my friend because of who 62 00:04:21,899 --> 00:04:27,079 Steve: i see him and how i see him and i think he's worked really hard to make that 63 00:04:27,079 --> 00:04:31,599 Steve: such a rounded experience everything from how to, 64 00:04:32,199 --> 00:04:38,899 Steve: to where to to why to um you know why we do it and then what's our responsibility 65 00:04:38,899 --> 00:04:40,559 Steve: which is the the part I love the most, 66 00:04:40,619 --> 00:04:45,759 Steve: you know, I think he's really getting us all to sync or helping us bringing 67 00:04:45,759 --> 00:04:50,739 Steve: people together to help all of us think together about how we can protect what 68 00:04:50,739 --> 00:04:53,379 Steve: we love, you know, and love what we protect. 69 00:04:53,639 --> 00:04:57,619 Steve: So yeah, I'm definitely, I don't mean to go on too much, but I think he's done 70 00:04:57,619 --> 00:05:00,679 Steve: a great job and I'm really very happy to be part of it. 71 00:05:01,319 --> 00:05:04,939 Marvin: Yeah, it's very neat. And, you know, we've talked multiple times since the last 72 00:05:04,939 --> 00:05:07,699 Marvin: interview and, you know, one of the things I always enjoy about our conversations 73 00:05:07,699 --> 00:05:11,359 Marvin: and I enjoy this, This, you know, not all of my interviews are like this, 74 00:05:11,459 --> 00:05:13,299 Marvin: but I love what I call the journey interview. 75 00:05:13,539 --> 00:05:16,439 Marvin: And, you know, we've been kind of kicking around. I mean, gosh, 76 00:05:16,599 --> 00:05:18,519 Marvin: we've probably been talking about this for six months. 77 00:05:20,139 --> 00:05:23,099 Marvin: You know, kind of what did we want to talk about when we got together again? 78 00:05:23,259 --> 00:05:26,239 Marvin: And, you know, I don't generally do interviews where it's like the book's out. 79 00:05:26,299 --> 00:05:29,959 Marvin: Let's talk about the book. But we thought it would be kind of interesting to 80 00:05:29,959 --> 00:05:31,939 Marvin: just talk about lessons from the river. 81 00:05:34,119 --> 00:05:37,839 Marvin: And, you know, I mean, I think we've got a handful of kind of topics. 82 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,359 Marvin: But, you know, I'll kind of open it up because, I mean, one of the things, 83 00:05:40,459 --> 00:05:43,999 Marvin: you know, everyone that knows me, everyone will get ready to laugh. 84 00:05:44,099 --> 00:05:45,539 Marvin: I'll say I'm moderately wound tightly. 85 00:05:48,539 --> 00:05:49,499 Steve: I laugh too. 86 00:05:50,739 --> 00:05:56,439 Marvin: And so, you know, one of the things I think that's really one of the things 87 00:05:56,439 --> 00:06:01,539 Marvin: I've kind of taken away from kind of my life, you know, on the water is that 88 00:06:01,539 --> 00:06:03,839 Marvin: you can only take what the river is willing to give you. 89 00:06:06,361 --> 00:06:10,901 Steve: Right. Just like life. No matter how much we think we have control, we don't. 90 00:06:11,501 --> 00:06:14,761 Steve: We only have control over our decisions. So you can cast over here, 91 00:06:14,821 --> 00:06:17,681 Steve: cast over there, stand here, stand there, and it's pretty much like. 92 00:06:18,401 --> 00:06:20,821 Steve: It doesn't mean you know it's coming around the bend. 93 00:06:21,541 --> 00:06:25,241 Marvin: Yeah. And you know, we can control how we react to those situations as well. 94 00:06:26,341 --> 00:06:31,901 Steve: Right. That's exactly, that's a lot of times I'll write to myself and to others. 95 00:06:32,001 --> 00:06:37,441 Steve: I'll say I can do nothing about what happens in life or what happens in fishing. 96 00:06:37,941 --> 00:06:42,181 Steve: They're really the same. I mean, it's been said before, but you can really connect 97 00:06:42,181 --> 00:06:47,201 Steve: anything you want to, to fly fishing in nature and you can learn anything if you pay attention. 98 00:06:47,201 --> 00:06:50,221 Steve: Attention so um but it's it's 99 00:06:50,221 --> 00:06:53,241 Steve: true i can choose i can see what's happening 100 00:06:53,241 --> 00:06:55,901 Steve: and then i can make a choice choice of my 101 00:06:55,901 --> 00:06:59,241 Steve: response rather than simply react out 102 00:06:59,241 --> 00:07:04,681 Steve: of emotion i can respond out of something bigger than that so i do think it 103 00:07:04,681 --> 00:07:08,201 Steve: all connects whether you're deciding i'm going to toss a dry fly right now and 104 00:07:08,201 --> 00:07:12,301 Steve: i'm going to do it here in this way or i'm gonna i'm going to do something that 105 00:07:12,301 --> 00:07:16,361 Steve: i'm not a big fan of but i've done it a lot of it which is nymphing and um, 106 00:07:18,201 --> 00:07:19,861 Steve: but in life we do the same thing. 107 00:07:19,921 --> 00:07:23,461 Steve: You know, we can take a moment and decide this is what I'm going to do. 108 00:07:24,941 --> 00:07:26,761 Steve: Some of the best things are scary. 109 00:07:27,361 --> 00:07:30,301 Marvin: Yeah, and it's interesting too, right? Because, you know, kind of with my kind 110 00:07:30,301 --> 00:07:34,341 Marvin: of lawyer banker background, you know, if you apply enough force and resources, 111 00:07:34,561 --> 00:07:35,621 Marvin: you should get what you want. 112 00:07:36,941 --> 00:07:40,161 Marvin: And, you know, one of the things is you just, you know, some days you go fish 113 00:07:40,161 --> 00:07:42,181 Marvin: and it's like, this is all we can get today. 114 00:07:43,756 --> 00:07:50,816 Steve: Right and it's okay and the victory is can you go fishing catch nothing and have a great time, 115 00:07:51,696 --> 00:07:58,816 Steve: and my answer is always yes but i know uh you know i remember a friend who golfed, 116 00:07:59,596 --> 00:08:02,336 Steve: i don't even remember his name now it was so long ago and i asked him 117 00:08:02,336 --> 00:08:05,356 Steve: why he loved golf he said it's so relaxing and i 118 00:08:05,356 --> 00:08:08,316 Steve: was a big runner back then and uh because 119 00:08:08,316 --> 00:08:11,236 Steve: i could be and i was running the trail through the golf course 120 00:08:11,236 --> 00:08:14,196 Steve: and i heard some guys cursing through cursing and 121 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:17,256 Steve: and i saw this golf club come flying 122 00:08:17,256 --> 00:08:25,036 Steve: past my head it was him um you know fly fishing and golfing is is like an island 123 00:08:25,036 --> 00:08:28,576 Steve: if you you don't bring it with you you're not going to find it so he didn't 124 00:08:28,576 --> 00:08:33,596 Steve: bring peace with them he wasn't going to find it um but you but yes if you bring 125 00:08:33,596 --> 00:08:37,076 Steve: peace to the that river you seek it You're going to find it. 126 00:08:37,316 --> 00:08:46,416 Steve: And I learned so much by paying attention as an angler about life and about myself. 127 00:08:47,616 --> 00:08:51,856 Steve: So, yeah, the reflection in the water is more than just you. Yeah. 128 00:08:52,396 --> 00:08:55,436 Marvin: It's interesting, too, because, you know, I'm fortunate enough to get to spend 129 00:08:55,436 --> 00:09:00,696 Marvin: time with people because, you know, I always say I'll be proper since it's you 130 00:09:00,696 --> 00:09:02,716 Marvin: and say, you know, fly fishing is something that heals me. 131 00:09:03,156 --> 00:09:07,056 Marvin: And so if I can, you know, bring that to other people, I'm always happy to do that. 132 00:09:07,876 --> 00:09:11,096 Marvin: And one of the things I try to tell people because beginners so often get so 133 00:09:11,096 --> 00:09:15,676 Marvin: frustrated and it's like there's so many tiny victories from a day on the water. 134 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:20,736 Steve: Yes and if you really want to be brave and this 135 00:09:20,736 --> 00:09:23,456 Steve: is you know everything is subjective so this is 136 00:09:23,456 --> 00:09:26,256 Steve: my subjective view if people read my work you'll 137 00:09:26,256 --> 00:09:29,036 Steve: find that i'm constantly throwing myself into positions i've never 138 00:09:29,036 --> 00:09:32,796 Steve: been in before and doing things i've never tried before so 139 00:09:32,796 --> 00:09:35,836 Steve: i'm always a beginner and you've 140 00:09:35,836 --> 00:09:38,976 Steve: got to learn how to forgive yourself when things don't go right that's 141 00:09:38,976 --> 00:09:42,236 Steve: how how you learn so um i constantly 142 00:09:42,236 --> 00:09:45,356 Steve: i'm trying something new and it's 143 00:09:45,356 --> 00:09:48,276 Steve: really cool so i'm 63 years old 144 00:09:48,276 --> 00:09:51,196 Steve: but i don't feel it i feel like a kid 145 00:09:51,196 --> 00:09:55,456 Steve: because i'm always trying something new and if it doesn't work out big deal 146 00:09:55,456 --> 00:10:00,336 Steve: i mean your kid you fall in the mud you get back up uh when you're adult you 147 00:10:00,336 --> 00:10:06,576 Steve: fall in the mud and you you think your day's ruined so i'm definitely a 63 year 148 00:10:06,576 --> 00:10:10,896 Steve: old kid And I like it. I like it. 149 00:10:10,976 --> 00:10:14,496 Marvin: Yeah, it's interesting too, right? Because there's, you know, 150 00:10:14,516 --> 00:10:18,596 Marvin: when you face that kind of adversity and newness and, you know, 151 00:10:18,656 --> 00:10:22,056 Marvin: you don't always triumph, however we want to define triumphing. 152 00:10:22,956 --> 00:10:28,336 Marvin: But, you know, what I think it does is it expands your capacity to do more crazy stuff, right? Yeah. 153 00:10:29,546 --> 00:10:32,486 Steve: Yeah and i think it it's all practice so 154 00:10:32,486 --> 00:10:35,726 Steve: if you um i think the failure there's 155 00:10:35,726 --> 00:10:39,346 Steve: the failure is possible but to me failure is 156 00:10:39,346 --> 00:10:44,146 Steve: if you've failed to complete something you're trying to do or trying to learn 157 00:10:44,146 --> 00:10:47,666 Steve: and then you didn't learn anything from it then you failed but if you if you 158 00:10:47,666 --> 00:10:50,506 Steve: made a mistake and then you learn from it you pick up and you go again then 159 00:10:50,506 --> 00:10:56,486 Steve: you're good you're golden so i love it To me, fly fishing, 160 00:10:56,826 --> 00:10:59,446 Steve: lessons from the river are always coming. 161 00:11:00,166 --> 00:11:04,146 Steve: They're always there. And I think we brought this up because I was sharing with 162 00:11:04,146 --> 00:11:07,366 Steve: you earlier that no matter what I write in that, there's going to be lessons 163 00:11:07,366 --> 00:11:09,466 Steve: from the river embedded into that book. 164 00:11:10,246 --> 00:11:12,526 Steve: There have been in the past, but there's going to be more. 165 00:11:13,846 --> 00:11:20,326 Steve: And that is because, again, my subjective opinion, the world is really hurting right now. 166 00:11:21,086 --> 00:11:27,506 Steve: And to me, we humans are the proximate cause of that hurt, including to ourselves. 167 00:11:28,886 --> 00:11:31,546 Steve: And so if we ask ourselves, what can we do to make things better? 168 00:11:31,626 --> 00:11:33,206 Steve: The first thing we got to do is make ourselves better. 169 00:11:35,186 --> 00:11:39,426 Steve: Fly fishing the river and paying attention in nature helps me become a better 170 00:11:39,426 --> 00:11:42,286 Steve: person. Does that make sense? 171 00:11:42,566 --> 00:11:46,226 Marvin: No, it does. And, you know, while you were saying that, I was kind of thinking 172 00:11:46,226 --> 00:11:49,806 Marvin: about something, you know, a lot of what I do. I, you know, and I've talked 173 00:11:49,806 --> 00:11:53,966 Marvin: to you a lot about my boys and they're at that age where, you know, I'm coaching, right? 174 00:11:54,106 --> 00:11:59,506 Marvin: But I, but I'm also sort of, you know, try to, you know, be a helpful soul in the world. 175 00:11:59,566 --> 00:12:02,046 Marvin: And it's kind of interesting because, you know, to your point, 176 00:12:02,206 --> 00:12:05,226 Marvin: there's so much rancor, right? 177 00:12:06,526 --> 00:12:09,746 Marvin: And to me, it's a choice, right? You know, whether you want to get up in the 178 00:12:09,746 --> 00:12:12,866 Marvin: morning and have a little bit of outrage on your cornflakes or not. 179 00:12:15,666 --> 00:12:16,626 Steve: Not for me. 180 00:12:16,626 --> 00:12:20,666 Marvin: Right. Right. And so, you know, it's funny. And so like, I, I really push my 181 00:12:20,666 --> 00:12:25,026 Marvin: boys and I'll, you know, uh, you know, push other people in my circle. 182 00:12:25,046 --> 00:12:29,306 Marvin: I just kind of suggest that maybe they should start by being the change they want to see in the world. 183 00:12:30,418 --> 00:12:33,198 Steve: Right and that's where it starts i mean that's what we can 184 00:12:33,198 --> 00:12:37,078 Steve: do i had a deep conversation with a friend yesterday who 185 00:12:37,078 --> 00:12:39,978 Steve: spent 30 40 years of her life working for 186 00:12:39,978 --> 00:12:43,058 Steve: peace in the world and we we talked about 187 00:12:43,058 --> 00:12:46,158 Steve: the struggles and and i i have 188 00:12:46,158 --> 00:12:48,998 Steve: another friend that spent time with the dalai lama and spent time 189 00:12:48,998 --> 00:12:51,838 Steve: with the doctor of the dalai lama and one day she was 190 00:12:51,838 --> 00:12:54,658 Steve: complaining she was actually talking to the doctor of the 191 00:12:54,658 --> 00:12:57,618 Steve: dalai lama about struggles she was having in 192 00:12:57,618 --> 00:13:00,438 Steve: in dealing with the world and he just 193 00:13:00,438 --> 00:13:03,938 Steve: leaned over and said you can always feed the birds he 194 00:13:03,938 --> 00:13:06,858 Steve: said what she says you can feed the birds all we 195 00:13:06,858 --> 00:13:12,978 Steve: can do is what we can do you know so sometimes what i do is those small thing 196 00:13:12,978 --> 00:13:16,898 Steve: and on the river those are some of those small things you know i was with uh 197 00:13:16,898 --> 00:13:21,858 Steve: years ago in a road casting onward i was on a river high up in the mountains 198 00:13:21,858 --> 00:13:26,278 Steve: of colorado with kirk dieter from from Trout Unlimited, also a dear friend. 199 00:13:26,798 --> 00:13:29,858 Steve: And Kirk and I were fishing together and this young man with his girlfriend 200 00:13:29,858 --> 00:13:34,578 Steve: came down and basically they parked by our car because they saw that we were 201 00:13:34,578 --> 00:13:35,378 Steve: there, so they figured it might 202 00:13:35,378 --> 00:13:38,098 Steve: be a good fishing spot and he just jumped right where we were gonna go. 203 00:13:38,798 --> 00:13:42,638 Steve: And went and fished right in the water we were gonna go to. And I watched how 204 00:13:42,638 --> 00:13:46,298 Steve: Kirk handled that, which was beautiful. He says he probably has no idea what he's doing. 205 00:13:47,038 --> 00:13:52,518 Steve: So Kirk offered to teach him how to be more successful fishing. 206 00:13:53,618 --> 00:13:56,998 Steve: Gave him some great tips, and then handed him some flies that he could use. 207 00:13:57,938 --> 00:14:02,318 Steve: And then was able to teach him in that process etiquette. 208 00:14:03,398 --> 00:14:08,018 Steve: You know, where other people might have yelled at this young man who it turned 209 00:14:08,018 --> 00:14:10,778 Steve: out just came out of the military after serving in Afghanistan. 210 00:14:11,238 --> 00:14:12,438 Steve: He just didn't know what he was doing. 211 00:14:12,898 --> 00:14:16,578 Steve: So, yeah, I don't want any cornflake. I don't want any rage in my cornflake. 212 00:14:17,998 --> 00:14:21,278 Steve: You know, I carried a weapon for 35 years. I don't need any more. 213 00:14:22,018 --> 00:14:27,278 Marvin: Yeah. It's interesting too, Steve, because, you know, I'm always fascinated, 214 00:14:27,538 --> 00:14:30,358 Marvin: you know, talking to creatives. 215 00:14:30,378 --> 00:14:33,718 Marvin: And, you know, I'm fortunate to be able to interview a lot of authors and other 216 00:14:33,718 --> 00:14:36,258 Marvin: creators, you know, on the podcast. 217 00:14:36,278 --> 00:14:39,418 Marvin: And, you know, kind of one of the things too, kind of another thing I think 218 00:14:39,418 --> 00:14:45,378 Marvin: about when I think about lessons from the river is how it helps us create that 219 00:14:45,378 --> 00:14:50,298 Marvin: serendipitous space, right, to solve problems and to be creative. 220 00:14:51,338 --> 00:14:51,778 Steve: Right. 221 00:14:53,482 --> 00:14:58,482 Steve: It does. It does. And why don't you tell me a little bit more of how you see 222 00:14:58,482 --> 00:14:59,882 Steve: that? Now I'm interviewing. 223 00:15:00,182 --> 00:15:03,182 Marvin: Oh, fair enough. I'll indulge you. It's fine. 224 00:15:06,222 --> 00:15:08,922 Marvin: So, you know, it's an interesting thing, right? 225 00:15:09,002 --> 00:15:11,902 Marvin: So if you go back and if I say that I'm moderately, tightly wound, 226 00:15:12,102 --> 00:15:16,402 Marvin: right? So you think that, you know, pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, it works. 227 00:15:17,042 --> 00:15:20,982 Marvin: And, you know, I don't know when I sort of connected this dot late, 228 00:15:21,102 --> 00:15:28,222 Marvin: no doubt, but that, you know, you just don't schedule at nine o'clock on Friday 229 00:15:28,222 --> 00:15:29,922 Marvin: morning, I'm going to find the cure for cancer. 230 00:15:30,782 --> 00:15:34,082 Marvin: Right. It just doesn't, it doesn't work like that. Right. And, 231 00:15:34,182 --> 00:15:39,722 Marvin: and so, you know, for me, I try to kind of order the world in what I call strategic and tactical. 232 00:15:41,462 --> 00:15:45,202 Marvin: Okay. And, you know, strategic is kind of a narrow word, really, 233 00:15:45,302 --> 00:15:49,422 Marvin: because it's all it's any I would say it's any kind of created and creative endeavor. 234 00:15:50,462 --> 00:15:56,562 Marvin: And I think that, you know, not relentlessly applying force and resources. 235 00:15:56,882 --> 00:16:00,362 Marvin: Sometimes you just have to learn how to do that and that it's OK and that it's 236 00:16:00,362 --> 00:16:02,242 Marvin: not a waste of time. Right. 237 00:16:04,202 --> 00:16:10,502 Steve: OK. And. You know, I've learned so much from all the different things that I've done in Marine Corps. 238 00:16:10,502 --> 00:16:13,182 Steve: Of course when you start talking about strategy and tactics then i go 239 00:16:13,182 --> 00:16:15,922 Steve: there in my head i go to your strategy as a 240 00:16:15,922 --> 00:16:19,382 Steve: plan and tactics are the way you execute that plan but um 241 00:16:19,382 --> 00:16:25,242 Steve: they're also a great lesson in that life happens to us as we plan and i think 242 00:16:25,242 --> 00:16:28,482 Steve: the number one thing we're going to have for the 21st century that's going to 243 00:16:28,482 --> 00:16:36,062 Steve: decide which of us are going to survive as part of our species is our ability to deal with the, 244 00:16:36,242 --> 00:16:40,222 Steve: we do not know what's coming next. 245 00:16:41,802 --> 00:16:44,502 Steve: So we're going to have to be able to deal with that. 246 00:16:46,102 --> 00:16:48,882 Steve: And yeah, I think we do have to hold space. 247 00:16:49,042 --> 00:16:51,582 Steve: When we're fly fishing, we're on a river, we're in nature and anything, 248 00:16:51,702 --> 00:16:54,662 Steve: whether you're a fisher, hunter, or a wildlife photographer, 249 00:16:55,562 --> 00:16:58,022 Steve: there is serendipity involved in that process. 250 00:16:58,022 --> 00:17:01,022 Steve: Process and that has to be a lot of times what happens for 251 00:17:01,022 --> 00:17:05,122 Steve: me is the best things happen when i simply wait or i 252 00:17:05,122 --> 00:17:07,862 Steve: i just i'm open to them happening i'm paying 253 00:17:07,862 --> 00:17:10,962 Steve: attention and you keep hearing me saying paying attention paying attention because 254 00:17:10,962 --> 00:17:15,382 Steve: that's that's what it is and when i find myself being blocked even as a writer 255 00:17:15,382 --> 00:17:18,042 Steve: i'm thinking okay what am i going to do here you know the terror of the blank 256 00:17:18,042 --> 00:17:23,422 Steve: page uh the first thing i'm going to do is make some coffee and relax and just 257 00:17:23,422 --> 00:17:27,362 Steve: let it be there's this there's, 258 00:17:28,745 --> 00:17:33,565 Steve: we creating force and also i spent years in martial arts as well and i learned 259 00:17:33,565 --> 00:17:39,825 Steve: studying aikido that uh force is not always the answer a lot of times it's redirecting force, 260 00:17:40,945 --> 00:17:46,645 Steve: so um yeah you can't force it yep you just can't you just got to go with the 261 00:17:46,645 --> 00:17:54,105 Steve: flow and that's such a cliche but um see what there is so many ways that i look 262 00:17:54,105 --> 00:17:56,205 Steve: at what we do standing in a river, 263 00:17:57,005 --> 00:18:00,145 Steve: I'm much more of a river guy than a lake guy, by the way, because I like movement. 264 00:18:01,605 --> 00:18:06,065 Steve: I love fishing in the surf and reading the surf. 265 00:18:07,565 --> 00:18:14,425 Steve: It makes you pay attention. It makes you focus and learn and adapt and improvise and overcome. 266 00:18:14,865 --> 00:18:19,985 Steve: And so to me, fly fishing, obviously, is just something that grabs all of that. 267 00:18:20,385 --> 00:18:25,245 Steve: And we've talked before about it being healing. it's certainly a conduit for 268 00:18:25,245 --> 00:18:30,265 Steve: creativity if we're open but if if what our focus is is how many fish we can 269 00:18:30,265 --> 00:18:37,005 Steve: catch and how big they are then we're very limited especially as i i see our rivers are are, 270 00:18:37,785 --> 00:18:44,465 Steve: largely suffering with every passing year um i think there's a whole lot more 271 00:18:44,465 --> 00:18:49,865 Steve: to it than that i think what you call fly fishing the bicycle yes yeah i like 272 00:18:49,865 --> 00:18:54,105 Steve: that a lot so um yeah i'll hope I didn't go on too much there. 273 00:18:54,225 --> 00:18:57,345 Marvin: No, not at all. And I would say I'll also have to acknowledge, 274 00:18:57,485 --> 00:19:02,105 Marvin: Steve, that that's a little bit building on a metaphor that Steve Jobs had at 275 00:19:02,105 --> 00:19:05,545 Marvin: Apple, where he said that computers, I think, were bicycles for the brain. 276 00:19:07,083 --> 00:19:14,843 Steve: Okay. Well, and again, it is much more convoluted. So your listeners are going 277 00:19:14,843 --> 00:19:16,043 Steve: to hear how deep we get here. 278 00:19:17,143 --> 00:19:22,243 Steve: Because I mentioned before, everything's like an island, which if you don't 279 00:19:22,243 --> 00:19:24,823 Steve: have it with you, if you don't bring it there, it's not there. 280 00:19:25,443 --> 00:19:30,743 Steve: And what we bring to the river, what we bring to our life, we can either have 281 00:19:30,743 --> 00:19:33,603 Steve: rage or we can... I've had people that were saying, well, I'm just so angry 282 00:19:33,603 --> 00:19:35,823 Steve: about that, and I'll listen to them, and I'll say, okay, well, 283 00:19:35,903 --> 00:19:38,003 Steve: you have a right to be that way if that's what you want. 284 00:19:38,403 --> 00:19:40,383 Steve: And they'd say, what do you mean, if that's what you want? I said, 285 00:19:40,403 --> 00:19:41,763 Steve: well, you could choose not to be angry. 286 00:19:42,463 --> 00:19:47,823 Steve: I mean, again, I'm going to get kind of zen here, but I think it was the Dalai 287 00:19:47,823 --> 00:19:51,783 Steve: Lama that said, you will not be punished for your anger. Your anger is your punishment. 288 00:19:53,503 --> 00:19:58,563 Steve: So, the last person to flip me off in traffic, I think I blew a kiss. 289 00:20:00,543 --> 00:20:02,223 Steve: Which freaked him out a bit. 290 00:20:02,223 --> 00:20:10,223 Marvin: Yeah yeah yeah some people could say that was passive-aggressive but but uh maybe. 291 00:20:10,223 --> 00:20:15,643 Steve: But i i just i just laughed like wouldn't you so angry about you're such a rush 292 00:20:15,643 --> 00:20:19,823 Steve: and we're all going to the same place so um. 293 00:20:19,823 --> 00:20:24,363 Marvin: Yeah it it's it's an interesting thing about uh you know while while we're kind 294 00:20:24,363 --> 00:20:27,143 Marvin: of in this little zen place you know it's like it's funny because i'll I'll 295 00:20:27,143 --> 00:20:31,483 Marvin: like tell my boys sometimes I was like, you know, so if you're twice as angry, 296 00:20:31,623 --> 00:20:33,143 Marvin: how, what does that help you change? 297 00:20:34,163 --> 00:20:38,183 Marvin: Right. In the metaphor I use with them to help them understand that as I said, 298 00:20:38,223 --> 00:20:41,583 Marvin: so once you see the tiger, if you're twice as scared, do you run any faster? 299 00:20:43,663 --> 00:20:45,703 Steve: Perfect. Perfect. 300 00:20:45,983 --> 00:20:46,343 Marvin: Right. 301 00:20:46,523 --> 00:20:47,883 Steve: And we'll serve you to run. 302 00:20:48,063 --> 00:20:48,423 Marvin: Yeah. 303 00:20:48,483 --> 00:20:53,163 Steve: So, um, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, we get, we get to be human and, and we all are. 304 00:20:53,743 --> 00:20:57,663 Steve: And so here again, I use the river metaphor and it goes part of my, 305 00:20:57,663 --> 00:21:02,763 Steve: you know, imperfect text and Buddha persona that I've taken on myself. 306 00:21:04,083 --> 00:21:07,363 Steve: And I get these things that grab a hold of me in that negative way. 307 00:21:07,483 --> 00:21:11,923 Steve: I look at them like I'm analyzing something in a glass box and I say, 308 00:21:12,023 --> 00:21:16,523 Steve: okay, I'm feeling anxiety or anger or stress or whatever it happens to be. Why is that? 309 00:21:16,603 --> 00:21:18,623 Steve: And then I think it through and I think, you know, what do you want to do about 310 00:21:18,623 --> 00:21:21,943 Steve: it? And then when I figured that out, I stick that in the river and let it float 311 00:21:21,943 --> 00:21:23,003 Steve: around the corner and let it go. 312 00:21:23,483 --> 00:21:25,343 Steve: That sounds cliche, but it works 313 00:21:25,343 --> 00:21:30,243 Steve: for me because I can only do what I can do. So we go back to fishing. 314 00:21:31,163 --> 00:21:34,203 Steve: You can go and have a fantastic time no matter what happens. 315 00:21:34,923 --> 00:21:38,243 Steve: Or you can choose to be pissed off because it didn't come out the way you planned. 316 00:21:39,823 --> 00:21:46,643 Steve: And, you know, the fish don't have a script. And their job is to survive and 317 00:21:46,643 --> 00:21:50,363 Steve: procreate and pass on their genetics just like us. 318 00:21:50,923 --> 00:21:56,643 Steve: Their job is not to get caught by you. Yes. So, uh, I'm, I'm never upset if 319 00:21:56,643 --> 00:21:58,503 Steve: I don't catch the fish, that's my fault. 320 00:21:59,453 --> 00:22:02,553 Steve: And when I do catch them, it's wonderful. And then I treat them nicely, 321 00:22:02,733 --> 00:22:04,473 Steve: you know, unless we're going to eat them. 322 00:22:05,453 --> 00:22:08,473 Marvin: It's interesting too, you know, because talking about bringing things to the 323 00:22:08,473 --> 00:22:12,413 Marvin: island always, you know, makes me think about how important it is to bring curiosity 324 00:22:12,413 --> 00:22:16,293 Marvin: to the island and what a safe place fly fishing is to be curious. 325 00:22:16,433 --> 00:22:21,813 Steve: Oh, I love that. I love that. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And we're losing that, I think. 326 00:22:21,953 --> 00:22:27,013 Steve: And again, I'm just being, you know, I'm saying what I think doesn't mean I'm right. 327 00:22:27,013 --> 00:22:32,413 Steve: But to me, one of the problems with the answer at your fingertips is we're losing 328 00:22:32,413 --> 00:22:37,253 Steve: our creativity, and we're also becoming way too easy to simply accept. 329 00:22:37,833 --> 00:22:41,353 Steve: If you don't have – I talked about being a 63-year-old kid. 330 00:22:41,553 --> 00:22:44,393 Steve: Well, I'm forever flipping rocks over. When I was a little kid, 331 00:22:44,433 --> 00:22:46,533 Steve: I was always flipping rocks over to see what lived under there. 332 00:22:47,573 --> 00:22:51,833 Steve: I know, oh, a salamander. Oh, under the water, I have some rocks. 333 00:22:51,933 --> 00:22:52,833 Steve: Okay, there's some mayfly. 334 00:22:54,333 --> 00:22:57,453 Steve: I'm still doing that. and it 335 00:22:57,453 --> 00:23:00,873 Steve: keep that curiosity what's going on here today and what 336 00:23:00,873 --> 00:23:07,373 Steve: does it mean and what can i what can i learn from this it also puts us into 337 00:23:07,373 --> 00:23:11,473 Steve: a really good sense of our place in the world and you and i have talked about 338 00:23:11,473 --> 00:23:19,633 Steve: this um you know we're we're a blip a nice blip or blip. 339 00:23:19,633 --> 00:23:24,893 Marvin: Yeah it's an interesting thing it's really kind of a great kind of segue kind 340 00:23:24,893 --> 00:23:27,753 Marvin: of into the kind of the next thing i was going to talk about which is how it 341 00:23:27,753 --> 00:23:30,513 Marvin: helps us get out of that egocentric worldview, 342 00:23:31,833 --> 00:23:37,873 Marvin: right and you know um you know you can get a lot of perspective like you can 343 00:23:37,873 --> 00:23:41,573 Marvin: get perspective if you're in yellowstone and you get lost or you see a bear 344 00:23:41,573 --> 00:23:48,173 Marvin: right yes yes like that's one kind of perspective but i also too to your point 345 00:23:48,173 --> 00:23:50,173 Marvin: i think you know when you look at um, 346 00:23:52,171 --> 00:23:57,391 Marvin: You know, when you're observant and you see, you know, what's going on, 347 00:23:57,411 --> 00:24:02,011 Marvin: but you also see, you know, entire life cycles that are much shorter than yours, right? 348 00:24:02,071 --> 00:24:05,271 Marvin: How does that inform how you should live your life, right? Sure. 349 00:24:05,931 --> 00:24:09,671 Marvin: You know, I think I've told you before, I have a favorite rock that's three-fourths 350 00:24:09,671 --> 00:24:14,611 Marvin: of the way through a way trip that I take relatively frequently where I sit 351 00:24:14,611 --> 00:24:16,731 Marvin: and eat the sandwich and watch the kingfishers. 352 00:24:17,671 --> 00:24:18,511 Steve: I love that. 353 00:24:18,511 --> 00:24:22,491 Marvin: And, you know, I, I know, I know about how long I have, you know, 354 00:24:22,491 --> 00:24:26,031 Marvin: on some days I can sit on the rock and you can smell the deer, 355 00:24:26,091 --> 00:24:27,091 Marvin: but you can't see the deer. 356 00:24:28,111 --> 00:24:32,011 Steve: Oh yeah. I love that. I love that. That is, that is what it's all about. 357 00:24:32,171 --> 00:24:34,771 Marvin: Yeah. And so, you know, it's an interesting thing. And I think, 358 00:24:34,911 --> 00:24:41,811 Marvin: you know, that, you know, helping with context, um, also might, 359 00:24:41,931 --> 00:24:45,711 Marvin: you know, help us maybe find something other than rage for the cornflakes in the morning. 360 00:24:47,111 --> 00:24:52,411 Steve: Sure. And there's times when I think, I don't want to say rage, but maybe outrage. 361 00:24:52,791 --> 00:24:55,751 Steve: I don't know. There's times when it's okay to say this is wrong. 362 00:24:57,171 --> 00:25:00,471 Steve: And that's another thing I love that fly fishing can do for us. 363 00:25:00,551 --> 00:25:03,711 Steve: It connects us not just to a fish, but the fish to the river, 364 00:25:03,751 --> 00:25:11,731 Steve: the river to the mayflies, the riparian habitat, the need we have trees to cool the water. 365 00:25:11,791 --> 00:25:16,091 Steve: And it goes on and goes on and why we need rain. And once you've done all that 366 00:25:16,091 --> 00:25:19,691 Steve: connection, you understand how small you are, but also that you're part of this 367 00:25:19,691 --> 00:25:23,691 Steve: huge thing that is so beautiful. 368 00:25:24,171 --> 00:25:31,491 Steve: And once we have that, it's okay for us to feel a certain degree of this is 369 00:25:31,491 --> 00:25:35,611 Steve: wrong when we notice that people are throwing their beer cans in the river. 370 00:25:36,783 --> 00:25:41,043 Steve: Or um that they're randomly killing fish and throwing them up on the on the 371 00:25:41,043 --> 00:25:47,343 Steve: shore to die or you know we could go on and on about that but then how do we deal with that, 372 00:25:48,183 --> 00:25:50,983 Steve: and so what i love too is a lot of 373 00:25:50,983 --> 00:25:53,703 Steve: fly fishing organizations and i'm not a big 374 00:25:53,703 --> 00:25:56,463 Steve: organization guy even though i am a life member of trial 375 00:25:56,463 --> 00:25:59,723 Steve: unlimited uh are doing great work 376 00:25:59,723 --> 00:26:04,163 Steve: at cleaning up rivers of of teaching people to respect nature 377 00:26:04,163 --> 00:26:07,423 Steve: and each other and that 378 00:26:07,423 --> 00:26:10,343 Steve: to me is what we need to pass on you know that that 379 00:26:10,343 --> 00:26:13,123 Steve: respect that empathy so empathy for the 380 00:26:13,123 --> 00:26:16,103 Steve: fish and i have killed and eaten fish so it's 381 00:26:16,103 --> 00:26:19,723 Steve: not like i'm you know saying this is you 382 00:26:19,723 --> 00:26:22,523 Steve: get where i'm coming from i do we have we 383 00:26:22,523 --> 00:26:25,323 Steve: have empathy for the fish so i have asthma and heart disease 384 00:26:25,323 --> 00:26:30,203 Steve: and i write about that in this fourth book coming out and with my asthma which 385 00:26:30,203 --> 00:26:34,863 Steve: is beginning progressively worse i remember what it's like not to be able to 386 00:26:34,863 --> 00:26:39,663 Steve: breathe so when i pull take a fish i try to keep it in the water and i always 387 00:26:39,663 --> 00:26:43,243 Steve: know if i have to bring that for some reason that one eye is looking towards the water, 388 00:26:44,183 --> 00:26:47,403 Steve: wanting to get back and the other eye is looking right at me and i've got it 389 00:26:47,403 --> 00:26:56,243 Steve: life in my hand literally that kind of empathy um is something i see us losing in the world. 390 00:26:57,303 --> 00:27:02,043 Steve: And this is coming not this is coming from a former u.s marine that you know 391 00:27:02,043 --> 00:27:09,283 Steve: i'm saying i'm it's not um i'm not a big mush but i am uh every true warrior 392 00:27:09,283 --> 00:27:10,983 Steve: i've ever known has nothing to prove, 393 00:27:11,923 --> 00:27:14,903 Steve: um and i've served with a lot of them and they 394 00:27:14,903 --> 00:27:19,203 Steve: had nothing to prove there was no big ego they knew that they were small and 395 00:27:19,203 --> 00:27:22,943 Steve: i don't mean to be too graphic here but i've seen a lot of death they had seen 396 00:27:22,943 --> 00:27:26,923 Steve: a lot of death and all you have to do is notice what it's like to see a human 397 00:27:26,923 --> 00:27:30,863 Steve: being turn into a sack of potatoes and you realize okay i'm not that important 398 00:27:30,863 --> 00:27:32,823 Steve: except for what good i can do here, 399 00:27:33,906 --> 00:27:40,266 Steve: So I think fly fishing, being in nature, it is part of what we need both in 400 00:27:40,266 --> 00:27:45,766 Steve: the healing of our world and ourselves and in the teaching to remind us. 401 00:27:46,806 --> 00:27:51,666 Steve: And I hope you don't mind. I went a little crazy there in sharing, 402 00:27:51,926 --> 00:27:53,906 Steve: but I'm passionate about it. 403 00:27:54,146 --> 00:27:58,766 Marvin: Yeah, it deeply concerns me in a slightly different way. 404 00:27:58,766 --> 00:28:08,006 Marvin: And so I see – and part of this great thing about being on a river where your 405 00:28:08,006 --> 00:28:09,866 Marvin: phone doesn't work, which I think is glorious, 406 00:28:10,206 --> 00:28:16,986 Marvin: is finding that connection and being truly connected to the resource. 407 00:28:16,986 --> 00:28:23,946 Marvin: And I think, you know, as I watch the challenges that, say, for example, 408 00:28:24,086 --> 00:28:29,626 Marvin: some of our not-for-profits are facing, I mean, people are not engaged. 409 00:28:29,626 --> 00:28:34,046 Marvin: Engaged, and this isn't in a judgmental way, but if you look at the data, 410 00:28:34,406 --> 00:28:38,326 Marvin: you know, if people fly fish one to three days a year, and that's half the people 411 00:28:38,326 --> 00:28:42,626 Marvin: that fly fish in a year, it deeply concerns me. 412 00:28:42,626 --> 00:28:45,506 Marvin: It's actually something I've made a mental note to sit down and talk to Chris 413 00:28:45,506 --> 00:28:49,706 Marvin: Wood the next time I'm with him, because I think that, you know, 414 00:28:49,726 --> 00:28:51,706 Marvin: if you fast forward 15 years, 415 00:28:51,866 --> 00:28:57,746 Marvin: we're going to start to really see how difficult it's going to be to care about 416 00:28:57,746 --> 00:28:59,806 Marvin: these things that i know you care deeply about. 417 00:28:59,806 --> 00:29:02,106 Steve: Right um. 418 00:29:02,106 --> 00:29:07,346 Marvin: Because we're literally breeding that attachment out of our humanity. 419 00:29:07,346 --> 00:29:10,146 Steve: Yes i'm so 420 00:29:10,146 --> 00:29:13,586 Steve: glad you brought that up and i i'm um the 421 00:29:13,586 --> 00:29:16,266 Steve: fourth book the one that's coming out and this is actually this is not a 422 00:29:16,266 --> 00:29:19,466 Steve: book plug i'm there's a real reason i'm telling you this i 423 00:29:19,466 --> 00:29:22,466 Steve: am very honored that uh a gentleman 424 00:29:22,466 --> 00:29:25,786 Steve: has become a friend richard louve who wrote last 425 00:29:25,786 --> 00:29:29,086 Steve: child in the woods and i don't know if you're aware of that book but 426 00:29:29,086 --> 00:29:32,086 Steve: it's a it's a book that i wish at least every parent would 427 00:29:32,086 --> 00:29:35,186 Steve: would read um every school board 428 00:29:35,186 --> 00:29:38,686 Steve: should be mandatory reading um but 429 00:29:38,686 --> 00:29:43,146 Steve: anyhow last child in the woods and and i'm very pleased that richard louve has 430 00:29:43,146 --> 00:29:51,126 Steve: done the forward for this fourth book and um pleased and honored but he's really 431 00:29:51,126 --> 00:29:57,266 Steve: that's What his focus has been is our connection to what we're doing with our children. 432 00:29:58,786 --> 00:30:02,546 Steve: We don't save what we don't love, and we don't love what we don't know. 433 00:30:04,026 --> 00:30:11,846 Steve: And as a former warrior, and I don't say that, you know, flippantly like somebody 434 00:30:11,846 --> 00:30:13,366 Steve: just has a sticker on their pickup truck. 435 00:30:13,486 --> 00:30:15,886 Steve: I've actually been out there and done hard stuff. 436 00:30:16,486 --> 00:30:23,266 Steve: As a former warrior, you know that how you train people to kill other people 437 00:30:23,266 --> 00:30:25,566 Steve: is to take the humanity away from the target. 438 00:30:27,166 --> 00:30:32,846 Steve: And we're taking the reason to care away from nature. 439 00:30:33,826 --> 00:30:37,226 Steve: We're treating it as a thing to be used up and spit out. 440 00:30:37,486 --> 00:30:42,226 Steve: And there's too many of us. There's 8 billion of us and growing. 441 00:30:43,266 --> 00:30:52,046 Steve: And it's going to take care of itself if we don't. Because I was fishing for this book, actually. 442 00:30:52,106 --> 00:30:55,226 Steve: I was fishing the Big Hole River, which has lost, I don't remember the actual 443 00:30:55,226 --> 00:30:59,646 Steve: number, but something like 40% of its trout gone. 444 00:31:00,926 --> 00:31:05,026 Steve: And we're seeing this impact. But here's where I see the hope. 445 00:31:05,166 --> 00:31:11,926 Steve: I think us anglers, I think us people who are part of the outdoor community, 446 00:31:11,986 --> 00:31:16,766 Steve: anglers, ethical hunters, people who are into gardening, all these sort of groups, 447 00:31:16,966 --> 00:31:19,886 Steve: we're the ones that can drive this forward and say no more. 448 00:31:20,746 --> 00:31:25,006 Steve: We're the ones that can say, I'd love to see what Richard Louv has written about, 449 00:31:25,006 --> 00:31:28,506 Steve: that every child is exposed to nature as part of their teaching, 450 00:31:29,186 --> 00:31:30,566 Steve: as part of their learning and growing. 451 00:31:31,326 --> 00:31:35,966 Steve: I mean, everything attaches to it. And if they had that, first of all, 452 00:31:35,986 --> 00:31:37,426 Steve: I think it's going to make their life richer. 453 00:31:38,646 --> 00:31:43,026 Steve: And in this book, I actually have a little thing I say where I wish that every 454 00:31:43,026 --> 00:31:48,146 Steve: child in Gaza and Israel had to go fishing together as a mandatory part of their education. 455 00:31:49,346 --> 00:31:55,846 Steve: Now, that may seem very Pollyanna, and I'm not silly. I know what the real problems are there. 456 00:31:55,926 --> 00:31:59,526 Steve: I was dealing with Islamic jihad up close and personal when I was in my 20s. 457 00:32:01,026 --> 00:32:09,426 Steve: But I do know that I saw how people separate themselves from each other and from nature. 458 00:32:10,106 --> 00:32:15,006 Steve: And as long as you treat all of this as just something to be used, 459 00:32:15,246 --> 00:32:18,146 Steve: then you're not going to care until it's too late. 460 00:32:20,346 --> 00:32:24,486 Steve: I don't know if you saw the thing where howler monkeys are falling out of the 461 00:32:24,486 --> 00:32:26,966 Steve: trees in Yucatan dead from the heat. 462 00:32:28,246 --> 00:32:29,306 Marvin: No, I haven't. 463 00:32:30,166 --> 00:32:34,466 Steve: Yeah. I mean, that's just one of many things I can bring up right now. 464 00:32:34,546 --> 00:32:38,646 Steve: And I want people to pay attention because I don't know about all the anglers 465 00:32:38,646 --> 00:32:43,286 Steve: in the world, but I can tell you I would not be interested in going into an 466 00:32:43,286 --> 00:32:45,786 Steve: ocean or down a river where I knew everything was dead. 467 00:32:47,051 --> 00:32:50,331 Steve: I'm just not interested i wouldn't be interested in 468 00:32:50,331 --> 00:32:53,451 Steve: knowing that it's all been done in a stainless steel 469 00:32:53,451 --> 00:32:58,231 Steve: tank and dumped in there for me to catch like it was a kiddie pool and that's 470 00:32:58,231 --> 00:33:02,071 Steve: the direction i'm afraid we're going to go if we don't pull together and say 471 00:33:02,071 --> 00:33:08,851 Steve: we love this and we want to keep it alive so yeah i'm i'm passionate about it 472 00:33:08,851 --> 00:33:12,491 Steve: there's no doubt about it and and i don't hey Hey, 473 00:33:12,551 --> 00:33:15,191 Steve: like I said, I'm a 63-year-old kid. I don't care if people make fun of me. 474 00:33:17,151 --> 00:33:19,831 Marvin: Yeah, but I think there's even a broader issue there, Steve, 475 00:33:19,931 --> 00:33:23,311 Marvin: is I think it's not consumptive just as it relates to the outdoors. 476 00:33:24,491 --> 00:33:27,331 Marvin: It's consumptive for everything, right? 477 00:33:27,591 --> 00:33:30,091 Steve: I agree. We've been sold that bill of goods. 478 00:33:31,011 --> 00:33:34,311 Marvin: And so everything now is a packaged experience. 479 00:33:34,771 --> 00:33:37,651 Marvin: And so, you know, you look at, I mean, it was interesting. I was actually eating 480 00:33:37,651 --> 00:33:43,031 Marvin: a sandwich in one of the local grocery stores, and I like going there because 481 00:33:43,031 --> 00:33:46,211 Marvin: I talk to the people that work there, right, which is a rare thing. 482 00:33:46,371 --> 00:33:48,711 Marvin: It actually shocks them, almost scares some of them. 483 00:33:49,591 --> 00:33:53,111 Steve: And you know I do the same thing, by the way. You know that about me. Yeah. 484 00:33:53,291 --> 00:33:58,091 Marvin: And so about living in community and all of these things that we've lost where, 485 00:33:58,171 --> 00:34:02,131 Marvin: you know, if you door dash – and I'm not hating on this, and I want to talk 486 00:34:02,131 --> 00:34:05,211 Marvin: about tech too because I think it's a really important adjacent issue. 487 00:34:05,211 --> 00:34:10,171 Marvin: You, I just think we should be mindful because there's such tremendous value 488 00:34:10,171 --> 00:34:11,831 Marvin: at eating dinner at the kitchen table. 489 00:34:12,631 --> 00:34:17,791 Marvin: There's tremendous value in baking cookies with your grandmother and going and 490 00:34:17,791 --> 00:34:18,951 Marvin: cutting down a Christmas tree. 491 00:34:19,071 --> 00:34:22,671 Marvin: And I'm not saying like these are pinnacle experiences, but where everything 492 00:34:22,671 --> 00:34:27,431 Marvin: is just an exchange, we become disconnected. 493 00:34:28,911 --> 00:34:31,971 Steve: Right. I so deeply agree. 494 00:34:32,271 --> 00:34:34,491 Steve: And people may say, well, what does this have to do with fishing? 495 00:34:34,491 --> 00:34:37,071 Steve: It has everything to do with fishing because fishing is like, 496 00:34:37,171 --> 00:34:39,151 Steve: you know, we talk about lessons from the river. 497 00:34:40,331 --> 00:34:43,931 Steve: Standing in a river, everything we ever wanted to know about life, we can learn. 498 00:34:44,911 --> 00:34:48,771 Steve: And it really is, everything is connected and that includes us. 499 00:34:48,831 --> 00:34:53,071 Steve: We're mostly made of, I've written this before, we're made of stardust and water. That's it. 500 00:34:53,471 --> 00:34:59,011 Steve: That can contemplate itself briefly. So yeah, I mentioned to you that I do the same thing. 501 00:34:59,151 --> 00:35:02,091 Steve: I read people's name tags. I call them by first name. 502 00:35:02,931 --> 00:35:06,331 Steve: There's sometimes the only good I can do in the world is to be kind to somebody 503 00:35:06,331 --> 00:35:08,411 Steve: in the grocery store. And something happened. 504 00:35:08,631 --> 00:35:12,591 Steve: So I was just telling my wife that one of the clerks from the grocery store 505 00:35:12,591 --> 00:35:16,511 Steve: here went off to the military in his boot camp right now, just sent me a letter from boot camp. 506 00:35:18,191 --> 00:35:21,211 Steve: And we've only talked when she was checking me out, you know, 507 00:35:21,211 --> 00:35:24,451 Steve: when I'm getting groceries and she's working at the cash register. 508 00:35:24,611 --> 00:35:26,611 Steve: And she just sent me a letter from boot camp. 509 00:35:28,531 --> 00:35:29,891 Steve: We need community. 510 00:35:32,091 --> 00:35:33,971 Steve: We need to treat people differently. 511 00:35:36,248 --> 00:35:43,348 Steve: You know i that we see them and i think we also need to see each other um and we need to see uh, 512 00:35:43,848 --> 00:35:46,748 Steve: again you're i'm getting into my sort of thing but right now 513 00:35:46,748 --> 00:35:51,228 Steve: one part of the things i'm writing in a lot into this fourth book is that all 514 00:35:51,228 --> 00:35:57,568 Steve: living things are living beings that doesn't mean i didn't shoot a kudu in africa 515 00:35:57,568 --> 00:36:06,528 Steve: i did um so um but i was aware of its aliveness do you get what i mean No. 516 00:36:06,528 --> 00:36:08,988 Marvin: No, I do. And I mean, it's, you know, I knew what I did. 517 00:36:09,028 --> 00:36:09,288 Steve: Yeah. 518 00:36:09,368 --> 00:36:12,248 Marvin: And it's, I mean, you knew it, you were in, but you appreciated it, right? 519 00:36:13,368 --> 00:36:18,728 Steve: Yes. And all of that meat was donated to the local Herero tribe and the money 520 00:36:18,728 --> 00:36:21,568 Steve: I paid went to wildlife protection in Namibia. 521 00:36:22,248 --> 00:36:26,428 Steve: And I knew what the practice was of what I was doing, the campfire project to, 522 00:36:26,468 --> 00:36:34,908 Steve: to help, help people have some monetary dog in the hunt of keeping wildlife alive in Africa. 523 00:36:35,848 --> 00:36:38,008 Steve: Oddly enough, by allowing some people to come kill them. 524 00:36:38,128 --> 00:36:42,068 Marvin: Yeah. And it kind of comes a little bit back full circle because it's another 525 00:36:42,068 --> 00:36:45,608 Marvin: thing that I kind of fixate on when I talk to my boys. Like I talk about being 526 00:36:45,608 --> 00:36:46,708 Marvin: the change that you want to see. 527 00:36:47,468 --> 00:36:50,928 Marvin: And then what you find is people are outraged by lack of community, 528 00:36:51,108 --> 00:36:54,528 Marvin: but then when you ask them what they do, they don't do anything. 529 00:36:55,088 --> 00:36:59,288 Marvin: And I'm not saying that in a judgmental way, I'm saying that in an observational way, right? 530 00:37:00,676 --> 00:37:04,196 Marvin: And I find it incredibly powerful to watch that and say, well, 531 00:37:04,256 --> 00:37:07,436 Marvin: you know, if it bothers you so much, you know, what are you going to do? 532 00:37:07,476 --> 00:37:09,616 Marvin: What one thing can you do today, right? 533 00:37:10,276 --> 00:37:10,636 Steve: Right. 534 00:37:10,696 --> 00:37:15,036 Marvin: To make it better. Right. And, you know, and not to go, you know, 535 00:37:15,096 --> 00:37:20,396 Marvin: watch whatever news you want to watch. It's completely your business. I don't care. 536 00:37:21,496 --> 00:37:24,636 Marvin: You know, it's just how does that add to your journey? And it kind of gets us 537 00:37:24,636 --> 00:37:26,296 Marvin: to this technology point. 538 00:37:26,476 --> 00:37:30,116 Marvin: And I preface all of this by saying I love technology, right? 539 00:37:30,956 --> 00:37:36,756 Marvin: You know, when I was 10 years old, 11 years old, we had one TRS-80 in my middle school. 540 00:37:38,076 --> 00:37:40,816 Marvin: We didn't have a hard drive. I don't even think they had hard drives. 541 00:37:41,856 --> 00:37:45,556 Marvin: They didn't pay for floppy disks in the TRS-80, so we would sit at lunch and 542 00:37:45,556 --> 00:37:47,936 Marvin: write computer code. So I love tech, right? 543 00:37:49,136 --> 00:37:50,516 Steve: Yeah, I had an abacus. 544 00:37:51,916 --> 00:37:53,656 Marvin: Well, I would think you're a 545 00:37:53,656 --> 00:37:56,296 Marvin: slide rule guy. I would give you a little bit more credit than an abacus. 546 00:37:57,836 --> 00:38:02,796 Marvin: But I've been asked to give a talk on generative AI with creatives at the Outdoor 547 00:38:02,796 --> 00:38:04,576 Marvin: Writers Association meeting in July. 548 00:38:04,696 --> 00:38:11,056 Marvin: And I think this is a fundamental issue of what it means to be human. 549 00:38:12,316 --> 00:38:17,716 Marvin: And, you know, I generally think about these things as their shovels and their tools. 550 00:38:17,896 --> 00:38:20,496 Marvin: And some of that's generational because I'm – That's what I was going to say. 551 00:38:20,656 --> 00:38:25,596 Marvin: Yeah. I'm a Gen Xer, but I always tell people, like, the shovel is not inherently bad. 552 00:38:26,296 --> 00:38:30,296 Marvin: But if I hit you on the head, I did something bad with the shovel. 553 00:38:30,936 --> 00:38:35,376 Marvin: And I think we need to be incredibly reflective. 554 00:38:35,836 --> 00:38:39,696 Marvin: And this flows back into these lessons from the water because you start to appreciate 555 00:38:39,696 --> 00:38:42,376 Marvin: your humanity while you're there, right? 556 00:38:43,316 --> 00:38:43,796 Steve: Sure. 557 00:38:43,916 --> 00:38:48,136 Marvin: And so do you need, like, AI can be very, very useful. But, like, 558 00:38:48,136 --> 00:38:50,996 Marvin: what is it that you want to allow it to do for you? 559 00:38:53,256 --> 00:38:53,996 Steve: Well, yeah. 560 00:38:55,821 --> 00:38:59,261 Steve: I can't speak much to AI right this moment, but I can say this, 561 00:38:59,301 --> 00:39:01,641 Steve: that first of all, I see it the same way you do as a tool. 562 00:39:01,761 --> 00:39:06,141 Steve: I see everything from a firearm to a fork to a shovel as a tool. 563 00:39:06,501 --> 00:39:11,341 Steve: And what happens to it is an extension of the choices made by the person operating it. 564 00:39:11,901 --> 00:39:18,041 Steve: And with that said, and that's true even if you're standing on the river with someone. 565 00:39:18,221 --> 00:39:22,821 Steve: By the way, one of the greatest things I'd love to do is teach someone and watch 566 00:39:22,821 --> 00:39:25,161 Steve: them experience catching their first fish. 567 00:39:25,821 --> 00:39:29,221 Steve: Um there's a scene in the movie mending the 568 00:39:29,221 --> 00:39:32,021 Steve: line that was actually i'm grateful to say 569 00:39:32,021 --> 00:39:35,081 Steve: taken from me where the main character ike 570 00:39:35,081 --> 00:39:38,001 Steve: he teaches the young man how to 571 00:39:38,001 --> 00:39:42,681 Steve: be grateful to the fish because you know this about me already because we've 572 00:39:42,681 --> 00:39:46,661 Steve: been friends for a while that uh i say thank you to fish when i release it and 573 00:39:46,661 --> 00:39:50,701 Steve: the character says thank you and he teaches the other young marine that and 574 00:39:50,701 --> 00:39:57,441 Steve: that marine then comes up with his own thing and says peace um i think the teaching part, 575 00:39:57,941 --> 00:40:03,841 Steve: so getting back to the technology and technology you and i have become friends 576 00:40:03,841 --> 00:40:09,961 Steve: and i've met some of the best friends of my life through technology i met some 577 00:40:09,961 --> 00:40:14,481 Steve: of the best people of my life i use technology for me to write my books and 578 00:40:14,481 --> 00:40:17,161 Steve: my stories and my essays which i hope help people. 579 00:40:19,261 --> 00:40:24,381 Steve: It's a tool and it can be used for really beautiful things or really ugly things. 580 00:40:26,300 --> 00:40:31,480 Marvin: And I think you can say that again in an observational way where it's not that 581 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,140 Marvin: what you write is the Catholic sense of what's right, 582 00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:40,580 Marvin: not to get the double entendre with right, but it's a posture in the world of 583 00:40:40,580 --> 00:40:47,800 Marvin: generosity and being deliberately generous that I think is so powerful. 584 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:56,060 Steve: Powerful yeah i wish that our so it used to be when i was a very young person 585 00:40:56,060 --> 00:41:00,660 Steve: in my life that i fell into the idea of do what's right do what's right but 586 00:41:00,660 --> 00:41:05,460 Steve: then i learned i grew up and i learned that a lot of people doing horrible things 587 00:41:05,460 --> 00:41:06,760 Steve: think they're doing the right thing, 588 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:13,260 Steve: um as i said no one in any foxhole fighting in any war on either side ever thought 589 00:41:13,260 --> 00:41:15,120 Steve: to themselves i I wish I wasn't the bad guy. 590 00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:21,020 Steve: They always think they're doing the right thing. To me, it's more about us having values that are. 591 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:24,780 Steve: So when you mentioned about where people get their news or which way they vote, 592 00:41:25,020 --> 00:41:27,040 Steve: I don't get into any of that. I don't have to. 593 00:41:27,260 --> 00:41:30,120 Steve: I don't have to knock anybody down because I can raise them up. 594 00:41:30,220 --> 00:41:35,800 Steve: I can simply say, is this person I'm choosing to spend time with kind? 595 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:42,300 Steve: Are they brave? You know, are they willing to learn? Are they open-minded or 596 00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:43,520 Steve: are they fixed in their ideology? 597 00:41:44,020 --> 00:41:48,120 Steve: As long as I can answer all those questions, then the rest of it takes care of itself. 598 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,520 Steve: And I think we see that too when we're looking at getting back to rivers. 599 00:41:52,780 --> 00:41:56,000 Steve: If we're going to save our rivers, if we're going to save the fish, 600 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,920 Steve: if we're going to save the trees, and they're going fast, we had better break 601 00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:02,320 Steve: that out of our fixed ideas of consumption. 602 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:10,060 Steve: You know, Edward Abbey said, unlimited growth is the ideology of a cancer cell. 603 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:15,340 Steve: Sorry, did I wander again? 604 00:42:40,140 --> 00:42:42,960 Marvin: Right? Right. That I think that. And one of the greatest gifts we can share 605 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,100 Marvin: with other people is sharing our time with them and sitting with them in the darkness. 606 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:48,880 Steve: Yes. 607 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:51,440 Steve: Yes. 608 00:42:53,384 --> 00:43:00,964 Steve: Absolutely. And in taking and accepting, here again, we'll go back to the lessons from the river. 609 00:43:01,584 --> 00:43:05,844 Steve: You can't say, I'm going to go to the river and it's going to be this way today. 610 00:43:06,424 --> 00:43:11,724 Steve: You go to the river and you have to adapt to how it is. Is it running fast? Is it running low? 611 00:43:12,204 --> 00:43:16,484 Steve: Is it clear? Is it, you know, is it got a lot of silt in it? 612 00:43:16,564 --> 00:43:18,784 Steve: What's going on? And it's the same with humans. 613 00:43:19,004 --> 00:43:22,524 Steve: So I've fished with some wonderful people in my books. And part of what I'm 614 00:43:22,524 --> 00:43:24,644 Steve: writing about is that relationship. 615 00:43:25,644 --> 00:43:29,704 Steve: And there's some people that I, frankly, I love every single person I've fished with. 616 00:43:30,084 --> 00:43:33,464 Steve: But I know I'm going to have a whole different experience depending on who it 617 00:43:33,464 --> 00:43:36,184 Steve: is, and I'll leave names out of this. But I know if I go with one person, 618 00:43:36,264 --> 00:43:41,124 Steve: it's going to be a hard-driving angling experience because that's where they're at. 619 00:43:41,324 --> 00:43:44,404 Steve: They want to get to the river as fast as they can, get on the river, 620 00:43:44,504 --> 00:43:46,784 Steve: in fact, and they're focused on catching fish, catching fish. 621 00:43:46,904 --> 00:43:49,604 Steve: And I'm, well, another person, we're going to sit on the tailgate for a half 622 00:43:49,604 --> 00:43:51,024 Steve: hour and talk before we even start. 623 00:43:52,164 --> 00:43:55,864 Steve: I have my own preference of how I do that, but I can do it both ways. 624 00:43:56,044 --> 00:43:59,544 Steve: And I'm just, I accept them where they're at, just like the river. 625 00:43:59,664 --> 00:44:02,224 Steve: You know, if you want to drive, sure, I'll catch up with you. 626 00:44:02,444 --> 00:44:03,944 Steve: We'll get to the river, we'll fish. 627 00:44:04,784 --> 00:44:09,964 Steve: But slowly, they'll notice me sitting on a rock just watching the river go by 628 00:44:09,964 --> 00:44:14,344 Steve: and see how weird I am that I don't have to be fishing all the time. 629 00:44:16,144 --> 00:44:21,384 Steve: I can have that sandwich on that favorite rock like you and watch the kingfishers 630 00:44:21,384 --> 00:44:22,784 Steve: and be really, really happy. 631 00:44:23,704 --> 00:44:30,764 Steve: I think we teach each other things, not through judgment, but through just doing and being together. 632 00:44:32,804 --> 00:44:34,704 Steve: Does that make sense, as I always say? 633 00:44:34,704 --> 00:44:40,544 Marvin: No, it does. I mean, it really comes back to this idea of being in community, right? Yes. 634 00:44:42,464 --> 00:44:50,764 Marvin: And, you know, I think humans are unfortunately incredibly adept at differentiating. 635 00:44:52,144 --> 00:44:55,804 Marvin: And I think, you know, if you get to focus on all of these things that we have 636 00:44:55,804 --> 00:44:59,564 Marvin: in common, so to, you know, for example, in fishing, we share this love of fly fishing, right? Right. 637 00:45:00,304 --> 00:45:04,284 Marvin: You may be a warrior fly fisherman. You may be a poet fly fisherman. 638 00:45:05,584 --> 00:45:09,724 Marvin: But the question is, you know, where does the common ground from that, 639 00:45:09,764 --> 00:45:12,624 Marvin: your experience on the water and sharing that with other people, 640 00:45:13,044 --> 00:45:15,644 Marvin: you know, how does that inform? 641 00:45:15,804 --> 00:45:18,524 Marvin: Because I think all of these things, right, if you kind of come out of this, 642 00:45:18,584 --> 00:45:20,684 Marvin: they're practices if you see them. 643 00:45:20,884 --> 00:45:24,444 Marvin: You know, they're not only about fly fishing. It's why I say fly fishing is 644 00:45:24,444 --> 00:45:28,644 Marvin: a bicycle. there are modalities and habits that you can bring back to your regular 645 00:45:28,644 --> 00:45:30,104 Marvin: life that make your life better. 646 00:45:31,422 --> 00:45:36,242 Steve: Absolutely. Absolutely. More than anything I know, actually. But absolutely. 647 00:45:37,622 --> 00:45:44,302 Steve: If that's what you're open to. And I think this is just, again, subjective. 648 00:45:44,602 --> 00:45:50,522 Steve: If we address our fly fishing, if we address our interaction with nature, 649 00:45:50,622 --> 00:45:55,722 Steve: then our interaction with each other through that lens, our lives get better and it ripples out. 650 00:45:56,342 --> 00:45:59,002 Steve: And that is also i'm going to bring it back to the 651 00:45:59,002 --> 00:46:01,882 Steve: books in a second my books are written on purpose in a certain 652 00:46:01,882 --> 00:46:04,942 Steve: way they're as you know that 653 00:46:04,942 --> 00:46:07,842 Steve: they're they're full of fishing stories and adventures but that's 654 00:46:07,842 --> 00:46:12,322 Steve: not what they're really about the first one casting forward is in here to texas 655 00:46:12,322 --> 00:46:16,242 Steve: hill country where i'm from and then it goes across america going after native 656 00:46:16,242 --> 00:46:20,502 Steve: fish through all the freshwater waters and then casting seaward that was casting 657 00:46:20,502 --> 00:46:24,722 Steve: onward casting seaward is our oceans from Alaska all the way around and out 658 00:46:24,722 --> 00:46:25,722 Steve: to the Caribbean and back. 659 00:46:25,822 --> 00:46:30,342 Steve: And this last one, casting homeward, I'm traveling backwards in time from the 660 00:46:30,342 --> 00:46:33,742 Steve: furthest reaches of Alaska all the way to New York City. 661 00:46:34,282 --> 00:46:38,582 Steve: And by backwards in time, what I mean is I'm going backwards from the movement 662 00:46:38,582 --> 00:46:45,502 Steve: of Euro-Americans as they spread across this country and interacted in often 663 00:46:45,502 --> 00:46:48,182 Steve: not great ways with indigenous Americans. 664 00:46:49,802 --> 00:46:53,562 Steve: Americans. And the next one I'll be doing without getting any details is going 665 00:46:53,562 --> 00:46:55,362 Steve: to be looking at it very internationally. 666 00:46:56,422 --> 00:46:59,502 Steve: Once we get outside the borders, once we get outside our hemisphere, 667 00:46:59,782 --> 00:47:03,222 Steve: there's so much we find out we have in common. 668 00:47:03,302 --> 00:47:06,282 Steve: So I could spend some time with my hard driving fishing friends and I realized, 669 00:47:06,382 --> 00:47:08,022 Steve: oh, okay, I see what it is. 670 00:47:08,402 --> 00:47:12,402 Steve: Where you live, you have to get to the river in a hurry because there's so many 671 00:47:12,402 --> 00:47:14,662 Steve: anglers here. You're not going to get a spot. 672 00:47:15,902 --> 00:47:19,102 Steve: I have to, you know, have some empathy and find out where they're at. 673 00:47:19,382 --> 00:47:23,022 Steve: And I also have to remember that maybe when I was younger, maybe when I was 674 00:47:23,022 --> 00:47:24,782 Steve: their age, I had to have been more hard-dragging. 675 00:47:26,058 --> 00:47:30,178 Steve: Um, I'm at that place now where, you know, Bob White and I were up in Alaska 676 00:47:30,178 --> 00:47:34,358 Steve: and on our last day, we decided to fish for a half day and then go into the 677 00:47:34,358 --> 00:47:36,218 Steve: lodge together while everybody else was fishing. 678 00:47:36,278 --> 00:47:41,038 Steve: And Bob painted while I wrote the book, you know, that was really cool for me, 679 00:47:41,098 --> 00:47:44,238 Steve: but a lot of guys would never do that. I'm not going to waste a half day of fishing. 680 00:47:45,198 --> 00:47:48,338 Steve: Um, but we both will be each other and said, we've caught all the fish we need 681 00:47:48,338 --> 00:47:51,738 Steve: to in our life. Let's go, let's go paint and write. 682 00:47:52,958 --> 00:47:54,538 Steve: So we're just in different places. 683 00:47:55,318 --> 00:47:57,998 Marvin: Yeah, it's interesting, too. I mean, it's not just fly fishing. 684 00:47:58,138 --> 00:48:05,018 Marvin: I mean, a lot of stuff in nature, you know, if you can leave a little bit of the technology behind. 685 00:48:05,238 --> 00:48:09,078 Marvin: I mean, I literally started going to Montana because my BlackBerry didn't work there, right? 686 00:48:10,378 --> 00:48:12,378 Steve: That was a long time ago, if you're saying BlackBerry. 687 00:48:12,498 --> 00:48:15,758 Marvin: Yeah, and also, too, you know, it was kind of an exotic place. 688 00:48:15,878 --> 00:48:19,918 Marvin: It's less exotic than it used to be. And so, you know, it was kind of like telling 689 00:48:19,918 --> 00:48:22,198 Marvin: people at work that you were going to the moon. People were like, 690 00:48:22,258 --> 00:48:23,558 Marvin: gosh, we can't get him. He's in Montana. 691 00:48:25,358 --> 00:48:29,418 Marvin: Um, but it's this, it's, it's, it's fun. It's funny, but true. 692 00:48:29,638 --> 00:48:32,118 Marvin: I mean, you know, and so, uh, I love it. 693 00:48:32,158 --> 00:48:36,238 Steve: I, I, I used to have these high speed jobs where I made real money and they 694 00:48:36,238 --> 00:48:37,738 Steve: would say to me, well, how do we get you? 695 00:48:37,818 --> 00:48:42,258 Steve: And I say, you don't, they would always say that to me. How do, how do we reach you? 696 00:48:42,318 --> 00:48:46,138 Steve: I said, you don't, I'm going to be on an Island or I'm going to be in the mountains. 697 00:48:46,598 --> 00:48:50,318 Marvin: Yeah. It's, it's an interesting thing too, right? Where they don't want to pay 698 00:48:50,318 --> 00:48:54,018 Marvin: you like you're irreplaceable, but then when you want to leave for a week, God forbid. 699 00:48:55,018 --> 00:48:57,478 Marvin: You have to be tethered with an umbilical cord. 700 00:48:58,758 --> 00:49:03,158 Steve: It's a uniquely American thing too, I'd have to say, as having lived different 701 00:49:03,158 --> 00:49:06,658 Steve: parts of the world. Only in America have I seen where we are, 702 00:49:07,918 --> 00:49:13,258 Steve: taught that our job is to do our job and you know when the economy is going 703 00:49:13,258 --> 00:49:17,458 Steve: down the message everybody gets is spend more money spend more money bring the 704 00:49:17,458 --> 00:49:19,838 Steve: economy up spend buy more stuff, 705 00:49:20,378 --> 00:49:23,758 Steve: and then when you don't have enough room for that stuff you can always rent 706 00:49:23,758 --> 00:49:29,378 Steve: space to hold your stuff that you don't use so uh this is getting off of fly 707 00:49:29,378 --> 00:49:32,458 Steve: fishing but i'm trying to get well a little bit i'm trying to make sure that 708 00:49:32,458 --> 00:49:36,678 Steve: my fly fishing quiver of rods and reels is exactly just what I need and nothing else. 709 00:49:36,718 --> 00:49:42,278 Steve: And I'm donating the rest of the ones I have to good causes like Project Healing Waters. 710 00:49:43,118 --> 00:49:48,778 Steve: And I am getting in my home down to the minimalist stuff of just what I need, 711 00:49:48,898 --> 00:49:53,038 Steve: just the pots and pans and dishes and things that I need and want and the rest 712 00:49:53,038 --> 00:49:55,498 Steve: of it. I am giving way to be repurposed. 713 00:49:56,398 --> 00:49:57,658 Steve: It's so freeing. 714 00:49:57,698 --> 00:50:00,018 Marvin: And you've already done that with your library, right? 715 00:50:01,198 --> 00:50:04,138 Steve: Oh, yes. I gave away to the local library here 716 00:50:04,138 --> 00:50:07,338 Steve: in my little town in texas uh four pickup 717 00:50:07,338 --> 00:50:11,278 Steve: truck loads of books um and 718 00:50:11,278 --> 00:50:14,018 Steve: they have what they didn't keep for 719 00:50:14,018 --> 00:50:17,258 Steve: the library they sell it and make money for the library and 720 00:50:17,258 --> 00:50:24,198 Steve: um yep so i've given away almost all of my books i have a very small collection 721 00:50:24,198 --> 00:50:29,738 Steve: of books that i will not let go of and i read them again and again so uh when 722 00:50:29,738 --> 00:50:36,298 Steve: i told bob white this he said to me i'm kind of interested in seeing which ones you kept yeah i. 723 00:50:36,298 --> 00:50:39,318 Marvin: Would say a related question you know i think people are going to want to know 724 00:50:39,318 --> 00:50:45,478 Marvin: you know what fly rods does the texan buddha think are critical to keep what do you have. 725 00:50:45,478 --> 00:50:48,198 Steve: Well for me it's 726 00:50:48,198 --> 00:50:51,178 Steve: weight um rather than getting into now i 727 00:50:51,178 --> 00:50:54,238 Steve: have to say that almost it just so happens that so if 728 00:50:54,238 --> 00:50:56,958 Steve: i talk to another one of my friends he's he's gonna say oh 729 00:50:56,958 --> 00:50:59,698 Steve: i only use hardy and miller and tony use sage and all 730 00:50:59,698 --> 00:51:06,338 Steve: that but i i most of my stuff is orbit surface um and um but when i talk about 731 00:51:06,338 --> 00:51:11,658 Steve: the rods that i hold on to first of all i love glass but i also have graphite 732 00:51:11,658 --> 00:51:17,718 Steve: and i have one beautiful bamboo rod that was made for me uh by jerry gustage and, 733 00:51:19,218 --> 00:51:22,758 Steve: at sweet crop sweet grass rods so 734 00:51:22,758 --> 00:51:25,678 Steve: um but at any rate uh for 735 00:51:25,678 --> 00:51:28,658 Steve: me i like having in my quiver i 736 00:51:28,658 --> 00:51:31,518 Steve: like having a three and a four because i love using light rods 737 00:51:31,518 --> 00:51:34,418 Steve: in in high mountain streams or you 738 00:51:34,418 --> 00:51:37,298 Steve: know and for smaller fish i i always am 739 00:51:37,298 --> 00:51:43,938 Steve: going to have a five an eight uh and a ten so to me that covers things i have 740 00:51:43,938 --> 00:51:48,798 Steve: a five eight and ten then and then i usually have multiple spools so like on 741 00:51:48,798 --> 00:51:52,798 Steve: my eight weight i'm gonna have i have one it's a tropical floating line i'm 742 00:51:52,798 --> 00:51:54,578 Steve: gonna have one that's It's an intermediate syncing line. 743 00:51:54,638 --> 00:52:00,818 Steve: They have one that's really good for sheriff and going in deep. And that's what I do. 744 00:52:01,178 --> 00:52:06,578 Steve: It's what do I want to achieve? It's not about how many things can I have. It's what tool... 745 00:52:08,292 --> 00:52:11,412 Steve: Is going to get me where i need to be and to 746 00:52:11,412 --> 00:52:14,432 Steve: do the to have the experience that i need that i 747 00:52:14,432 --> 00:52:17,352 Steve: want to have so people have asked me well how how do you travel 748 00:52:17,352 --> 00:52:20,332 Steve: all these places it's not because i have money it's 749 00:52:20,332 --> 00:52:26,672 Steve: because i redirect what little i have so um to in order to do casting onward 750 00:52:26,672 --> 00:52:32,832 Steve: i had to sell a lot of my firearms from my hunting life almost all of them actually 751 00:52:32,832 --> 00:52:36,832 Steve: to help pay for airfare and things like that and we put our priorities where 752 00:52:36,832 --> 00:52:39,592 Steve: we want them And for me, it's not about things, it's about experiences. 753 00:52:40,472 --> 00:52:46,192 Steve: So yes, to me, if I have a three, a five, an eight, and a 10, 754 00:52:46,372 --> 00:52:48,472 Steve: I'm pretty much covered for everything I want to do. 755 00:52:50,372 --> 00:52:54,412 Marvin: Yeah, it's interesting. It's a, you know, this theme again of being deliberate, right? 756 00:52:55,912 --> 00:53:00,312 Marvin: And, you know, I'm sort of the same way. And it's kind of funny, 757 00:53:00,352 --> 00:53:03,132 Marvin: because I mean, I remember looking up at one point, and I was like, 758 00:53:03,172 --> 00:53:06,212 Marvin: gosh, you know, I'm making all this money to spend all this money to make all 759 00:53:06,212 --> 00:53:08,352 Marvin: this money to do something that doesn't fulfill me. 760 00:53:10,412 --> 00:53:13,032 Marvin: And so you kind of jettison that and you know 761 00:53:13,032 --> 00:53:15,832 Marvin: part of it too is i always tell people like i'm a generation x kid 762 00:53:15,832 --> 00:53:20,712 Marvin: i grew up in the 70s like we're going to be fine right you 763 00:53:20,712 --> 00:53:23,692 Marvin: know just a completely different thing where like you don't eat out every meal 764 00:53:23,692 --> 00:53:29,092 Marvin: um you know you know you actually repair stuff which is kind of a mind-blowing 765 00:53:29,092 --> 00:53:33,872 Marvin: thing to people uh right but you know it's an i don't know and i say this again 766 00:53:33,872 --> 00:53:37,072 Marvin: it's just an observation it's just where i am in my journey I don't care what 767 00:53:37,072 --> 00:53:38,972 Marvin: other people do. I'm not judging them. 768 00:53:39,712 --> 00:53:45,932 Marvin: This works for me, right? Like I will always trade more rustic accommodations 769 00:53:45,932 --> 00:53:47,292 Marvin: for more days on the water. 770 00:53:49,569 --> 00:53:56,069 Steve: Yeah, I wish I could say that's true for me. I actually confessed up in this 771 00:53:56,069 --> 00:53:59,909 Steve: fourth book that there was a time when I was a true wild man. 772 00:54:00,169 --> 00:54:04,369 Steve: There was a time when I was quite happy that I could go out into the wilderness 773 00:54:04,369 --> 00:54:08,649 Steve: and I did this all the time. Sometimes I did crazy things where I was making 774 00:54:08,649 --> 00:54:14,169 Steve: a lean-to, because I chopped my own wood and built a lean-to and tie it together. 775 00:54:14,549 --> 00:54:17,889 Steve: And I actually remember doing this in South Florida where I would cover it in 776 00:54:17,889 --> 00:54:21,309 Steve: palm fronds, and that would be my shelter and sleep on the ground. 777 00:54:22,309 --> 00:54:24,009 Steve: And those days are gone. 778 00:54:25,029 --> 00:54:30,989 Steve: And I have to admit that while I will do those things, I have definitely really 779 00:54:30,989 --> 00:54:34,909 Steve: enjoyed stepping out of a float plane and having someone hand me a glass of wine. 780 00:54:36,729 --> 00:54:44,169 Steve: So judge me if you will. Like I said, things are a little more creaky than they used to be. 781 00:54:44,269 --> 00:54:48,789 Steve: And I'm out there all day long and I'm fishing and I'm climbing and I'm doing all that stuff. 782 00:54:48,909 --> 00:54:53,949 Steve: But it is sure cool to have a nice shower and glass of water today. So I'll fess up. 783 00:54:54,129 --> 00:54:56,809 Marvin: Yeah, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the fishing, I think I can approve. 784 00:54:57,909 --> 00:55:01,909 Steve: Sure, that's it. I'm not saying I'm skipping the fishing. I'm saying that, 785 00:55:01,949 --> 00:55:06,889 Steve: you know, given the chance between the lean-to now, and when I was young, 786 00:55:06,909 --> 00:55:08,089 Steve: that seemed all really cool. 787 00:55:08,209 --> 00:55:11,889 Steve: But now I've got that kind of been there, done that. Yeah, I had the bears walk in on me. 788 00:55:12,929 --> 00:55:16,809 Steve: Woke up once with the snake in my sleeping bag with me. 789 00:55:18,649 --> 00:55:23,569 Steve: I've done it. I don't need to keep doing it. I have nothing to prove. 790 00:55:24,129 --> 00:55:27,229 Steve: So, yeah, I'll put mosquito net on my head. That's okay. okay, 791 00:55:27,249 --> 00:55:31,569 Steve: I was with my buddy Bob one time. We're on the St. Croix River. 792 00:55:31,789 --> 00:55:35,289 Steve: He handed me this mosquito suit to put on while I was going to stay with the 793 00:55:35,289 --> 00:55:38,249 Steve: boat while him and Lisa went to set up the vehicles. 794 00:55:39,109 --> 00:55:41,189 Steve: And I said, oh, I won't need that. He just put it on. 795 00:55:42,649 --> 00:55:47,869 Steve: Oh, my gosh. I was completely covered within seconds in mosquitoes. 796 00:55:48,829 --> 00:55:51,729 Steve: I have no problem putting on the mosquito suits, what I'm telling you. 797 00:55:53,149 --> 00:55:57,849 Marvin: Duly noted. And, you know, as we before we get back to kind of upcoming travel 798 00:55:57,849 --> 00:56:02,269 Marvin: and book details and things like that, Steve, is there anything else that you 799 00:56:02,269 --> 00:56:05,249 Marvin: can think of we should talk about in terms of lessons from the river? 800 00:56:08,456 --> 00:56:13,156 Steve: Well, I guess the number one thing I'm going to share is that what keeps me 801 00:56:13,156 --> 00:56:14,916 Steve: going is that I never stop learning. 802 00:56:15,776 --> 00:56:19,916 Steve: And that's what's really cool about Lessons from the River, because we're always 803 00:56:19,916 --> 00:56:23,396 Steve: changing. I hope we are. If we stop changing, we stop growing. 804 00:56:23,596 --> 00:56:27,036 Steve: That's why I'm really against the idea of a fixed ideology of any kind, 805 00:56:27,196 --> 00:56:29,376 Steve: because it means you're not growing anymore. 806 00:56:29,776 --> 00:56:34,936 Steve: And I have a lot of younger friends, and I thought about, well, why is that? 807 00:56:35,056 --> 00:56:37,936 Steve: And I thought, too many people my age have given up learning. 808 00:56:38,456 --> 00:56:40,096 Steve: They're not learning anymore. They're not growing. 809 00:56:41,036 --> 00:56:43,776 Steve: So I know that I don't know much of anything. 810 00:56:45,556 --> 00:56:49,036 Steve: And I've changed my mind a lot because I've learned new information. 811 00:56:49,276 --> 00:56:51,136 Steve: I think lessons of the river are eternal. 812 00:56:51,916 --> 00:56:56,856 Steve: They keep coming. And as long as I keep saying we pay attention and we ask ourselves 813 00:56:56,856 --> 00:56:58,736 Steve: honestly, how did I handle that? 814 00:56:59,936 --> 00:57:05,656 Steve: And forgive yourself when you don't handle it well. So I think that's the thing. 815 00:57:05,656 --> 00:57:10,796 Steve: We can never stop learning just by stepping out there and paying attention. 816 00:57:10,956 --> 00:57:16,436 Steve: And life for me, because you know my brain works weird, I think in poetry and metaphor. 817 00:57:17,316 --> 00:57:18,996 Steve: So I'm constantly learning. 818 00:57:20,416 --> 00:57:24,676 Steve: And when I make a mistake, I laugh about it. Usually write it into the book 819 00:57:24,676 --> 00:57:27,876 Steve: how I screw it up and move on. 820 00:57:29,556 --> 00:57:32,916 Steve: Nothing and no one has any power over us unless we give it to them. 821 00:57:33,796 --> 00:57:39,016 Steve: And so i'm not afraid to make mistakes i want to learn yeah. 822 00:57:39,016 --> 00:57:41,996 Marvin: It's interesting you know it makes me think too steve like one of the things 823 00:57:41,996 --> 00:57:46,076 Marvin: that attracts me to fly fishing is it's not consistently solvable right. 824 00:57:46,076 --> 00:57:47,416 Steve: No and. 825 00:57:47,416 --> 00:57:51,896 Marvin: That's one of the allures because i think if you know i quote figured it out 826 00:57:51,896 --> 00:57:55,196 Marvin: it would have bored me ages ago and i. 827 00:57:55,196 --> 00:57:56,096 Steve: Would have maybe. 828 00:57:56,096 --> 00:57:57,396 Marvin: Become a golfer god forbid. 829 00:57:58,876 --> 00:58:04,756 Steve: Been in that yeah i i would still take you as you as you came but i just we 830 00:58:04,756 --> 00:58:08,996 Steve: wouldn't have as much to talk about because uh i grew up around golf courses 831 00:58:08,996 --> 00:58:13,056 Steve: part of my life and i was constantly being chased off of them because you know 832 00:58:13,056 --> 00:58:15,336 Steve: what i was doing that golf thing i was fishing in ponds, 833 00:58:15,896 --> 00:58:23,976 Steve: uh illegally it was chasing me out of their ponds uh yeah so anyway i love our 834 00:58:23,976 --> 00:58:27,776 Steve: conversation that I really appreciate that you've shared this time with me. 835 00:58:27,876 --> 00:58:32,016 Marvin: Oh, it's been tremendous fun. And I know you've got some speaking engagements. 836 00:58:32,136 --> 00:58:34,816 Marvin: I know you said just locally, but you've got some travel coming up too. 837 00:58:36,075 --> 00:58:41,975 Steve: I do um i have some great travel coming up i'll be spending some time down in patagonia, 838 00:58:42,715 --> 00:58:47,475 Steve: uh in various parts of patagonia if it all comes together i'll be in both northern 839 00:58:47,475 --> 00:58:52,835 Steve: and southern patagonia and argentina and then various areas around argentina 840 00:58:52,835 --> 00:58:58,315 Steve: and piranha river going after golden dorado and a few other undisclosed places 841 00:58:58,315 --> 00:59:02,615 Steve: and i'll be spending some time I'm in Peche, Mexico soon, 842 00:59:02,755 --> 00:59:05,215 Steve: going after tarpon. 843 00:59:05,215 --> 00:59:08,275 Steve: But you know what I'm really going after, of course, is lessons from the river and the ocean. 844 00:59:08,515 --> 00:59:11,575 Steve: So, yes, I've got some good travel coming up. 845 00:59:11,875 --> 00:59:13,835 Steve: I'm also going to be going out to Portugal. 846 00:59:15,655 --> 00:59:21,455 Steve: And all these things are going to connect into me sharing with those people 847 00:59:21,455 --> 00:59:23,975 Steve: who I so deeply appreciate that read my work. 848 00:59:26,235 --> 00:59:29,895 Steve: That I'll be sharing these stories with them and the lessons that I learned 849 00:59:29,895 --> 00:59:31,635 Steve: along the way. That's what I do. 850 00:59:31,755 --> 00:59:35,195 Steve: I learn new things and I say, here, this is for you. Take it. 851 00:59:37,495 --> 00:59:41,175 Steve: You're never going to learn a fancy way to cast from me or a special new knot, 852 00:59:41,395 --> 00:59:44,435 Steve: but you're going to learn a whole lot of ways to attach better things to your 853 00:59:44,435 --> 00:59:45,435 Steve: life and let go of others. 854 00:59:45,815 --> 00:59:50,835 Marvin: Yeah. And I will drop a link. I know that Amazon and I imagine other, 855 00:59:50,855 --> 00:59:56,215 Marvin: like Barnes & Nobles and others, There's had the presale links up for your last 856 00:59:56,215 --> 00:59:59,355 Marvin: in the casting series, which I guess you told me was going to come out officially 857 00:59:59,355 --> 01:00:00,775 Marvin: on Labor Day weekend. Is that right? 858 01:00:01,915 --> 01:00:07,475 Steve: It's September 3rd. It's on preorder now. I'm grateful to say that it's been 859 01:00:07,475 --> 01:00:10,275 Steve: doing well in preorder right now. 860 01:00:10,455 --> 01:00:13,995 Steve: And the reason I care about that, by the way, is you know I don't do this because 861 01:00:13,995 --> 01:00:17,515 Steve: you don't become a writer for money. 862 01:00:18,295 --> 01:00:22,935 Steve: So it's because I want people to read these stories. I want people to get something out of it. 863 01:00:22,995 --> 01:00:26,535 Steve: It makes me so happy to get letters from people saying, I just love this book 864 01:00:26,535 --> 01:00:29,135 Steve: or I love this essay in Fly Fisherman. It really helped me. 865 01:00:29,555 --> 01:00:35,395 Steve: So, yeah, it comes out the third. It is available on all major booksellers like Amazon. 866 01:00:36,195 --> 01:00:40,835 Steve: It's probably one of the easiest ones, Barnes & Noble, Books A Million, Indie Books. 867 01:00:41,035 --> 01:00:46,095 Steve: But I also want to share that if they want a signed copy, the way to get signed 868 01:00:46,095 --> 01:00:50,615 Steve: copies is through my friend BobWhiteStudio.com. 869 01:00:50,855 --> 01:00:55,715 Steve: Um, he is taking pre-orders for signed copies and that's the only place I do 870 01:00:55,715 --> 01:00:57,295 Steve: currently sell signed copies through. 871 01:00:57,455 --> 01:01:01,375 Marvin: I got it. And do you have any, do you have any promotion in the schedule? 872 01:01:01,515 --> 01:01:03,135 Marvin: Uh, or is it a little early yet? 873 01:01:04,421 --> 01:01:07,901 Steve: Oh, right now, the only things I've got coming up are pretty local here, 874 01:01:07,981 --> 01:01:13,721 Steve: so I don't know how much it'd matter to your listeners rather than me traveling 875 01:01:13,721 --> 01:01:17,981 Steve: around the country because if I do, it's because I'm traveling for other reasons 876 01:01:17,981 --> 01:01:19,601 Steve: and I'm able to do those things. 877 01:01:19,761 --> 01:01:24,421 Steve: But they can always look on my website, stevebromeroesauthor.com, 878 01:01:24,641 --> 01:01:28,481 Steve: and whenever I have something like I'm traveling to Arizona or Colorado or wherever 879 01:01:28,481 --> 01:01:32,021 Steve: and I'm going to be at a local bookstore or something, I always post it up there. Yeah. 880 01:01:32,141 --> 01:01:36,561 Marvin: And I will drop all that stuff in the show notes. And I also know that you are 881 01:01:36,561 --> 01:01:40,581 Marvin: active-ish on Instagram and I'm probably more active on Facebook, right? 882 01:01:41,421 --> 01:01:44,581 Steve: Right. Both. Instagram is Steve Ramirez, author. 883 01:01:45,401 --> 01:01:49,461 Steve: And same thing with Facebook, Steve Ramirez, author. And you're welcome to connect 884 01:01:49,461 --> 01:01:54,201 Steve: with me on that, as long as you're a real person and a nice person. 885 01:01:55,161 --> 01:02:02,001 Steve: Um and uh so and i i write on both of them and keep people connected with me 886 01:02:02,001 --> 01:02:05,021 Steve: but also the reason you mentioned facebook is because that's where i actually 887 01:02:05,021 --> 01:02:11,681 Steve: write some little mini essays that people seem to like and i just put them put them up there yeah. 888 01:02:11,681 --> 01:02:16,621 Marvin: And uh when you were talking about why um book sales were important to you that's 889 01:02:16,621 --> 01:02:20,421 Marvin: the topic for our next conversation we'll uh We'll spend an hour or so talking 890 01:02:20,421 --> 01:02:24,141 Marvin: about the intersection of commerce and art. Beautiful. 891 01:02:25,421 --> 01:02:29,061 Marvin: Well, Steve, I super appreciate you carving a little bit of time this evening 892 01:02:29,061 --> 01:02:30,421 Marvin: out and spending it with me. 893 01:02:31,881 --> 01:02:36,281 Steve: My pleasure. Absolutely my pleasure. Thank you. I look forward to it, and I really enjoyed it. 894 01:02:36,461 --> 01:02:37,061 Marvin: Take care. 895 01:02:38,061 --> 01:02:41,201 Intro: Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. 896 01:02:41,261 --> 01:02:45,341 Intro: Again, if you like the podcast, please tell a friend and please subscribe and 897 01:02:45,341 --> 01:02:49,001 Intro: leave us a rating review in the podcatcher of your choice. Tight lines, everybody.