This interview saved my producer $1,000 in five minutes just while we were recording.

So trust me, these tips work because if you feel like you're constantly in a fight for your money, you're not wrong.

You are battling supermarket tricks, dark patterns in online shopping, and subscription traps.

It's not just inflation or you being undisciplined.

It's that modern consumer life is now

engineered to separate you from.

From your money.

Ever seen a countdown ticket timing while you're shopping online?

That's a trap.

You try to cancel a subscription and you're sent down this rabbit hole of web pages.

No unsubscribe button in sight.

That's a trap.

Even just the layout of your local

supermarket is a trap.

But we're fighting back today.

Enter Chris Schultz, senior investigative journalist at Consumer.

This is his area, and he has spent years digging into the psychological tricks being used to keep you spending more than you meant to.

Dark patents aren't scams like a lot of people seem to think they are.

They're perfectly legal.

They're things like hidden fees or scarcity cues, these pressure tactics.

And if you think his research would be enough to make you paranoid, well, yeah, a little bit.

He now makes sure he does his supermarket shopping online because it's just a way that he can stop the manipulation.

You know, the best $5 I spend every week is paying someone to bag up those groceries for me.

You've got to fight your way through this jungle.

It's a jungle out there.

How much can we even do as individuals?

And how much do we need a system change?

We've identified ten key dark patterns.

It wouldn't take a lot to just get those kind of, like, funneled into some of the legislation we have.

So welcome to Making Sense.

It's the podcast for people who want financial freedom without giving up their coffee.

I'm Francis Cook, a financial journalist and fellow financial freedom seeker who makes money simple for you.

Today we're pulling back the curtain on why it seems like you're always spending more than you meant to and how you can turn the tide.

This episode of Making Sense is supported by Odoo.

The all in one solution to make running your business smoother and more affordable.

Go to odoo.com that's O D double O dot com for more.

All right, Chris, welcome to the podcast.

So great to have you on.

I mean, you do amazing work helping people stay in control of their spending, which feels like it's harder and harder these days.

Do you think?

Are we worse at looking after our money these days or is the system getting better at extracting it from us?

I don't think anyone's gotten worse at looking after their money over the last two years.

We've all like, even if you're in good jobs, you've got to look after your money these days, right?

The cost of living is up there, inflation's been up there.

Everything from groceries to insurance to your power bill has gone up drastically over that time.

So no, I don't think any of us have gotten worse at looking after our money.

I think you're right that there are, there are other forces at play.

You plug in white T shirt size L into Google, suddenly that white T shirt is following you everywhere you go, Instagram, Facebook, you're just getting pop up ads on every website you go to.

It's trying to get you to part with your money.

So there's that.

And then there are these things we call dark patterns that are a little more subtle but working in the background too.

And they've definitely become more ubiquitous recently.

Well, exactly.

I just, I feel like things are sort of levelled up to quite an intense point.

I mean, you actually, when we were preparing for this interview and talking about, you know, the sort of things that might be interesting for us to chat about, you said something that has really stuck with me, that being a consumer these days just means constantly fighting.

How much do you think that has changed from you say two years ago, even 10 years ago?

Why are we in this constant fight now?

Someone explained it to me like this.

We were doing this dark patterns research and they were like, it's kind of like how you'd walk into a store on Queen street to buy this white T shirt and then behind you they'd put in all of these obstacles for you to get through before you could leave that store.

That's what shopping online is like these days.

There are all of these obstacles that, these pitfalls you can fall into when you're shopping online, right?

So dark patterns aren't scams like a lot of people seem to think they are.

They're perfectly legal.

They're things like hidden fees.

You put something in your basket, get to check out and suddenly the price of that is it's got two or three other fees added onto it, or scarcity queues where you're booking accommodation and there's only one left at this price.

We've all seen those, right?

Like these pressure tactics to buy.

Countdown timers are another one.

That's the one that always gets me.

I buy a lot of concert tickets and I get two minutes to buy those tickets before they're released to someone else.

I want those damn tickets.

I don't want to miss out.

I know they work on me.

And then there's, there are things like subscription traps where we've all subscribed to a gym or a new service or a food delivery service for too long because it just is so much effort to unsubscribe.

So they're dark patterns and they're all just subtly but insidiously working away and chipping away at your confidence.

And I think as we've gotten better at navigating the online world, they've gotten better and sneakier as well.

So they're always kind of like one step ahead.

And because we don't have laws banning them like other countries, they're just, they're allowed to, they fall into this gray area that they're allowed to just play

out your dark patterns.

Research.

For anyone who hasn't come across it, I mean they should go and read the articles that you put out on consumer because they were amazing.

But yeah, I.

You did a list of them that I just found horrifyingly fascinating.

Like I'm looking at and being like, wow, that's super interesting.

But wow, I'm also really depressed.

So what was it?

Pre ticked boxes that automatically add extras to your cart.

Scarcity warnings like only one left at this price.

Hidden fees that appear only at checkout, Hiking the advertised price, Hard to find cancellation buttons or multi step unsubscribe processes.

That annoys me.

Confirm shaming messages.

I love the confirm shaming label there.

I hadn't thought of it like that, but Confirm shaming messages that guilt consumers into staying subscribed with wording like no thanks, I'd love to stay penniless or do you like wasting money?

And every single one of those, I'm like, yep, that's happened.

Yep, that's happened.

Yep, that's happened.

And it just, I know you say it's in a gray area, but I read that list and I'm like, how is this legal?

The one that always cracked me up.

So we sat for this research.

We did like this nationwide survey of a thousand people and then we, to really get real world examples of it, we sat down like this with someone and put them through some dark patterns.

And the one that everyone just sat there and went, oh, yep, here we go was HelloFresh, the food delivery service.

Their unsubscribe option is like this five or six step process.

It's Just page after page of how about a discount?

How about getting some of your friends in and getting 30% off?

How about we just pause it?

Are you sure you want to do that?

It's relentless and yeah, it's exhausting.

To sign up to something like that is often so easy.

It's often one click to get out of it.

Maybe it's a phone call, maybe you've got to navigate bots on their website or then maybe you've got to go through this like 10 minute process of, you know, I just want to cancel it.

So, yeah, it falls into this legal gray area.

There are definitely things we could do under the Fair Trading Act.

We could remodel that to try and attack some of them.

There doesn't seem to have been any kind of progress from the government or, you know, you know, forward thinking.

Australia is looking at banning like a whole suite of them.

Ooh, tell me what Australia's doing.

Cause they often lead the way on this.

They've got a bit more balls than us.

Literally looking at banning dark patents.

Wow.

So that list that I made out before, all of that would be.

Or a few of them.

Most of it, yeah.

Like things like countdown timers, subscription traps are definitely in there.

Hidden fees, all of that stuff.

Yeah.

The big obvious ones, they're just looking at banning all of them.

They announced that last year, so.

Oh, yeah.

Well, because we do often sort of watch what they do, see how they go.

I have the first penguin theory where I often am first penguin in my group of friends because I'm very willing to try new things.

But we have first penguin with Australia and New Zealand too, where penguins, you know, if they go to jump into the water, you can't see if there's any predators underneath.

So they'll often crowd around the edge of the water, crowd, crowd, crowd, crowd, crowd.

And then one either jumps in or is pushed by the rest of the penguins.

Soon it's a little unsure and.

And then the rest sort of peer in and wait to see if they've gotten eaten.

And if he hasn't gotten eaten, the rest will jump in and it's fine to get in the water.

So we're letting Australia first penguin on this, are we?

Bigger country, more resources, more politicians and also more people affected.

But also they've got a government that recognizes this as an issue.

You know, we tried to put a figure on how much money this is costing us and we sort of came up with, I think it was somewhere between 50 and 60 million.

Like a year.

Yeah.

But no One sits there and goes, oh, I subscribed to that gym for three extra months.

I shouldn't have.

That cost me this.

You know, that's the conservative estimate.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, no one tallies up their hidden fees.

Like, and there are other costs too.

You know, emotional costs, time wasting costs.

We lose confidence online when we go through these things because sometimes we feel like victims.

You know, it does make you feel a little bit embarrassed if you, if you just can't unsubscribe from something and you're giving people money that you could use.

Oh, exactly.

When everything's costing so much.

Okay, well, if someone is looking at these dark patterns, I mean, are there ways other things that New Zealand as a country should be looking at and maybe following Australia's footsteps or other things that we would like to see from government?

But also, what about things we can do as individuals?

Even if, whether or not our government does things, are there ways that are good tactics to protect ourselves from this?

Once you see these things, you start noticing them more and more.

And I think that's a good thing.

Once you're aware of them and what they're trying to do to you, you can sort of limit their impact.

Right.

Like I told you about concert tickets, for me, I know that is a countdown timer on concert tickets is gonna get me every time.

So what I do is before those tickets go on sale, I say to myself, I'm not spending over this.

If those tickets cost this amount, fine, I'll get them.

If they're more than that, with all of the fees or dynamic pricing or whatever's added on, I'm out.

I set limits.

The other one, I think that probably sounds so basic, but like, just don't shop at night when you're tired.

Yeah, that is more likely to work.

Right.

Like, how often are you on Instagram?

There's that white T shirt you were browsing the other day and suddenly it's there.

I was like, ah, just grab it.

Get rid of these ads.

It's been following me everywhere.

Fine, I'll buy it.

Yeah.

If you're in a rush, you're probably more likely to just chuck an add on in there or ignore the hidden fees.

And it's interesting as well that you mentioned sort of the shame aspect of it, because I do feel like a lot of these tactics that you've mentioned play into either that feeling of being rushed or that feeling of not having enough time.

But then there's also the emotional side of things, of, oh, you need this.

This will make you feel better and you're smart if you get it.

You're dumb if you don't.

And that also leads this layer of shame.

If you end up paying for something, you're like, ugh, I should have known better, or whatever.

Why do these things work on us?

Like, what are they tapping into here?

Everyone wants a bargain, right?

Like, that's why the word sale just works every time.

And I think these days too, no one pays full price for anything if you can help it.

I mean, I, you know, just yesterday I bought some.

Some new earplugs for concerts and they were full price and I was like, shopping around for discount codes.

I wanted 10% off.

Didn't get it, but I had to get them.

But that's the thing.

I think we all want a discount.

We used to sales.

That's why these sales tactics have gotten more extreme.

That's why you see, like, you know, 50% off when you walk into a supermarket now, which is crazy to me.

You know, there are countries that don't allow that.

You can only do certain amounts of discounts on food, like 20 or 30%.

I think it is in France, the discounts get higher and higher to try and get you, to lure you back in.

So, yeah, that just comes back to everything being a fight.

You've got to fight your way through this jungle.

It's a jungle out there.

It is, it is.

What about in terms of the sort of the overall.

Because we mentioned the government stuff, stuff.

What do you think is realistic for New Zealand to bring in, in terms of any controls on these dark patterns?

It's tricky because.

Yeah, you're right.

You can have a completely different experience on a website in Aotearoa as compared to someone who lives in, like the UK or America, where there are restrictions on these kinds of things.

Yeah, we know these things work too.

We know they take people's time and money and harm their emotions.

So do we have to wait for Australia to do this?

Probably.

I mean, probably we do.

That's just how things seem to go.

I'd love to get this research in front of, you know, the right people, see if they can do something about it.

I really don't think it would take that much.

You know, it's really just adjusting the laws.

We have to include those.

Like, we've identified 10 key dark patterns.

You listed some of them earlier.

It wouldn't take a lot to just get those kind of, like, funneled into some of the legislation.

We have to stop it from happening.

Are we looser on this stuff in New Zealand than other comparable countries.

Yes, 100% in Australia.

There was some key research done and that is what led to the changes over there.

So, yeah, our fingers are crossed.

We're trying to, we're really trying.

It does feel like psychological warfare though, doesn't it?

And it's, it's, it's everywhere.

It's, it's often in these core spending categories.

It's, it's online, it's following you around your online life, which for a lot of us is quite big these days.

And then there's also this stuff in person as well.

You mentioned, you know, with, with food and things.

Let's get into that.

Yeah, because that's, that's a massive category.

You can't not eat.

You walk into a supermarket.

What's happening as soon as you walk

in so much, so much.

Just, just, just visual overload.

I went to a supermarket with a marketing expert from AUT and I was like, let's just walk around the supermarket, tell me what's going on.

And she just pointed out that there are, there's this signage, there are sales signs coming at you from everywhere.

There are these different tiers of loyalty, like membership specials and loyalty cards.

And now boosts with those loyalty cards, you've gotta navigate your way through.

There's often three different colours of sale signs on each item now.

And so every item you're putting into your trolley is like, you've gotta try and work out what the price is, whether you wanna pay that price.

And it's exhausting.

And that is the point.

It's called decision fatigue.

So it's designed to get you to the point as quickly as possible that you just go, oh, don't care.

Chuck it all in there, let's get this over with.

And so after that trip, I was like, I don't know.

I was still skeptical.

I was like, I'm going to go to a supermarket and I'm going to do my normal shop and I'm going to spend as much time as I need to analyzing each item.

And then I opened up one of these grocery comparison apps to see if it was the cheapest price.

And then I was navigating the shelves.

Which item is cheapest?

I tell you, I got to the end of that experience.

I was exhausted.

I was just completely wrecked.

There's so much information thrown at you that it's.

Yeah, you do just get to the end of that experience and you go, I don't care.

I want this to end.

Like, I feel like everyone has Like a tiring job these days if you've got a family that's tiring.

Maybe that's me bringing my own bias, but I love my family, but they're tiring.

And then when you're trying to get through these life admin things, if they're deliberately then piling on the decision fatigue and making it tricky, of course, you hit the point where you're like, whatever, don't care, and you spend more than you intended to.

And so that's deliberate.

I mean, if you ask the supermarkets, they'd probably say it's not.

You know, the best $5 I spend every week is paying someone to bag up those groceries for me.

So you'll only online shop now for your groceries.

I'll do.

Look, I've got teenagers, and my son had a 16th on Sunday.

They ate everything in the house.

He had seven friends over.

It was unbelievable how much food they ate.

I'm very concerned when I get.

I've got two boys and I'm very concerned about when they get to the teenage stage.

You should be.

Yeah, just start saving right now.

Well, Gilmore's and Costco are gonna be your best friends.

Okay, yeah, we can talk about that.

But, yeah, no, I was at a supermarket yesterday.

I did need to go and get some more food, but once a week, no, I'll sit at home one night, I'll just load up our basket, compare it to the lists, make sure we're getting everything we need.

It saves me time.

I just roll up, open my boot, load the groceries and get out of there.

So I'm not spending an hour walking around that supermarket and then overspending.

And so it saves me money as well.

Right.

So reduce that decision fatigue by moving your main supermarket shop online if you

can afford to do that.

And if you're busy like I am or you are, then.

Then it saves you an hour.

Do you think it might end up saving you money too, though, with, you know, not having the browsing through the shelves and the easier comparisons?

That.

Yes, that.

Yeah.

And also, like, you know, everyone's been to the supermarket when they're hungry and they end up buying way too much food.

There's another factor to this, too.

And I've, you know, I've spoken to supermarket suppliers.

You know, they're struggling in this duopoly situation.

They're just constantly being pushed to offered cheaper prices and more discounts when their own costs are going up, their own weight.

You know, salaries for their staff are going up, equipment's going up, and.

And the Supermarkets are asking them to push their prices down.

Yeah.

So you know, when I've seen how tough some of them are doing it as well, it does make me pretty angry, which is another reason for me not to go into the supermarkets and to try and shop.

A friend actually gave me some really good advice and it's advice I've taken on and that's that if you can afford it, treating your own pantry like a mini supermarket is the best way to navigate this.

Right.

So you know, if you do a weekly shop, instead of buying three oat milks, $4 each, full price, and then maybe once every four or five weeks getting them on special.

We're not on special.

Buy 12 of them.

That way you're getting them for, I don't know, $2.50, $3 and you're only using those.

So they're sitting in your pantry and you're topping that up because those prices are so expensive now and you can save a lot of money doing that.

Know your staples, stock up when you can.

You sound like someone who's already dined us.

Oh, definitely, yeah.

We've got some dairy free people in our house, we've got one dairy free and one gluten free and if they could just combine their allergies next time.

So I'm only having to worry about one at a time.

Can both be quite expensive.

So yeah, anything that I can stock up, especially on the allergy stuff.

You betcha, yeah.

If you've got a cheese freezer, fill that up with cheap products.

If you can go to Gilmore's or Costco, if you live near one of those, if you're in Auckland like I, I use those places all of the time.

Buying in bulk can, can really help.

But again, you've got to have money to be able to do this.

You've got to have the time to be able to go there, you've got to be able to plan ahead.

None of this is easy.

No.

What about in terms of.

Because I know I threw something out to the social media audience the other day and said, what's your cost of living hacks?

First of all, the interesting thing to me was everyone was coming back with food hacks.

So food is clearly very top of mind for people and same team, same food is just insane.

But the other thing a lot of people are talking about the price comparison apps.

So do you rate them?

Which ones?

Do you rate them 100%.

Yeah.

Grow, save and Grocer and Z and they're both apps.

So that comparison apps you sign up, you can put in your favorite supermarkets and then your favorite products, and then at the beginning of every week, you can see who's got those products the cheapest and sort of shop accordingly.

They're really good.

But my favorite actually is Price Pulse, which is a recent addition.

And that's not an app, that is a.

It's an overlay for your website and it's a little broccoli that sits in the corner of your screen.

And how it works is you load up your basket wherever you usually shop, New World, Pack and Save, Woolworths, whatever, and it'll tell you not only the historical prices of those products, but also if you're getting your basket the cheapest.

And if you're not, it will transfer the items to a different supermarket or half the shop if you want to split the shop.

And the items that you can get cheaper elsewhere, it'll load up a basket somewhere else.

Oh, my God.

Brilliant.

Yeah.

So it's taking all of that admin y work away and like, literally just doing it for you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, my God.

It's really useful.

That's how I do it.

So, yeah, I. I hadn't come across that one before.

That's a great hot tip.

So that was Price Pulse.

Price Pulse, yeah.

It's pretty recent.

You've got.

Yeah, you've got to shop online.

Right.

You've got to do what I do.

And it's pay that $5 bagging fee.

And then you've gotta have time to go through all this.

This is what I mean.

It's so time consuming now.

It's not like I'm just gonna go to the supermarket and feed my family.

It's just like you've gotta, like, go on these, like, food trip missions to get the best deals everywhere, you know?

Exactly.

And it's always on these core life expenses that you can't just be like, no, it's not that we're all spending too much on shoes, it's food.

This episode of Making Sense is supported by Odoo because they're all about making business smarter, easier to manage and more affordable.

Odoo is a software platform that gives you access to over 70 apps to help you manage your website, accounting, invoicing, sales, inventory, and way more.

But instead of Death by a Thousand Cuts, where you pay for all of those apps individually, it's just one of four affordable subscription, which starts from $34.40 Aussie dollars per user per month.

It's not just about the cost either.

It's having all of those apps in one integrated dashboard.

To make your business or side hustle possible, let your software work for you so you can handle the important stuff.

Try Odoo for free for 15 days, no card details required.

That's odoo.com for more.

Okay, so insurance people have been asking me a lot about insurance recently because insurance costs have gone up so much and I know for some people that they are just cutting insurance entirely, which is a bit nerve wracking.

I think there are some insurances that maybe you can cut or reduce and there are others that I'm like, oh, it's dicey if you don't have that one.

So first of all, insurances, do you have thoughts on the best ones to have?

The best ways to get a good deal?

Like how do we even approach that these days when the bare minimum is already quite high?

This is reminding me of my dad when I grew up.

He never bought insurance ever.

He'd just be like, they're all bloody crooks, he'd say.

I mean, correct.

But also, I've gone the other way.

I've got seven, I think I've got two cars, house, contents, life, health, pet.

That's seven different insurance contracts.

So to constantly be looking over those and making sure you're on the right contracts and the cheapest deals is exhausting.

But Consumer just released its latest survey results and so you can check with whether you're with a company that other people are rating and respecting.

That's really useful.

I checked it out this morning.

I am not.

So, yeah, I need to go.

I messaged our insurance guru who put this piece together and I was like, I need to go through all my insurance now because my company's in the bottom half.

Yeah.

The best advice is the most obvious.

Keep shopping around, keep checking to see if you're getting the best deal.

I did this last year, right.

We had car insurance and we'd had that car for four or five years.

And I was like, I think it's probably time to have a look at this.

And when I shopped around, I found that my $60 a fortnight insurance costs would be $45 elsewhere.

That's $15 a fortnight.

That definitely stacks up.

That's a lot of money.

Right?

Right.

I'm not doing the math over a year, but it's like, I can use that to feed my damn teenagers.

So

I called my insurance company, I showed them the quotes and it was a little painful.

They were like, we're gonna have to move you onto a new system.

I don't know why they put it like that and ended up giving me the cheaper price so I didn't have to move companies.

But that was one of seven insurance contracts I've got.

But then they were like, do you wanna do this with your second car?

I was like, yes, of course I do.

But this is the thing, right?

This comes back to the fight aspect of it all.

They're not gonna call you and say, hey, your insurance is.

It's time to drop it, lower it.

They're not gonna do that.

You've gotta do that.

Excel spreadsheets get real nerdy about it.

I know, it's so annoying.

A.

But you do actually have to do this a little bit.

And I remember someone saying to me once, the priority was insurances being people first, then money, then stuff.

And we often insure stuff.

Money, people, you know, we think about our phone or whatever because that's right in front of you.

Whereas actually, if something really happened, maybe you could go without or maybe you could replace it yourself.

Whereas insurance really excels in those things that, you know, you couldn't solve for yourself.

Your house burns down, you need insurance.

Your health totally fails, you'll need insurance.

And it's so personal, right?

Like, maybe you've got a family history of, of some kind of illness or disease and you're definitely not going without that.

And yeah, I think everyone's just making these kinds of.

They're weighing up these different decisions, right?

Can I afford this?

Now?

In this climate, health insurance and life insurance is really tricky because trying to change, especially as you start getting older, like me, you've got to disclose medical conditions and that can affect your premiums.

And often it doesn't pay to move, even though those premiums go up every year.

So, yeah, it's just so personal.

Don't be like my dad, though.

Like, you know, like shared with love,

but don't do what dad did.

Yeah, insurance is a thing that you hate paying for it, but when you need it, you really need it.

We had this when we did own a house a few years ago, we hadn't used our contents insurance ever, hadn't ever made a claim.

Why are we paying for this?

We went away on holiday, came back and a cat had come into our house and sprayed all through the porch, the hallway, and my daughter's bedroom.

And we scrubbed and scrubbed and could not get rid of this smell.

It was $5,000 worth of damage.

We had to replace her bed, her dresser, we had to replace all the carpet.

We had to get the entire walls all sanded and painted again.

This one cat, it caused $5,000 worth of damage.

I can't say anything because it's just going to be.

Swears I'd be so angry.

We were literally on our hands and knees.

Like, is that a patch?

Like, you could see it had eaten into the paint.

It was so toxic, it was ridiculous.

That was a cat.

Oh, Lord, that's.

That's horrific.

We've got a lockable cat door after that.

Yeah.

Invest in those little plastic catches.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Okay, so, yeah, insurance.

And I think as well, the thought in terms of, you know, you having the seven different sort of various insurances, but people often not shopping around.

Another thing I love is when people, you know that.

That yearly reminder in your phone that pops up and says, hey, core expense, time to review.

And even if you pick one of those per week, just go one a week, check who's got what, have a little compare that breaks it down and makes it a little bit easier, right?

Because as you say, they're not going

to come to you.

They're busy luring in new customers for less money than you are paying.

So you're going to have to go through it.

And if you just break it down to one per week once a year, that you're going to end up saving, right?

Oh, 100%.

That's the thing.

There is.

There are real savings to be had, right.

Like that car insurance, that was $15 a fortnight, that's $7.50 a week.

That across all your other contracts, you know, if you, if you do it for your, your power bill, your phone company, your broadband, there's.

There are just so many places you can save.

You've got to kick up a bit of a fuss, though.

But it actually probably doesn't take as much time as you think.

A lot of, A lot of insurance companies have quotes on their website.

You can just plug in whatever you want.

They'll spit out a quote, they'll email you a quote and you can take that back to your provider and give it a go.

So, yeah, can you match this?

And if not, move?

But often they will match.

Yeah.

And then you don't even have to do anything.

They don't want to lose you.

You know, it's harder to find a new customer than to keep the ones you've got.

So usually, usually, sometimes you do have

to move though, at least give them the option.

Isn't it satisfying though, when you.

I felt so satisfied when I did that car insurance.

I was like oh, this really works.

You know, And I work at Consumer.

Yeah, but exactly.

Like, life creeps up on all of us.

It's like when people expect me to be a perfect budgeter and I'm like, sometimes other core bills.

So I'm thinking things like Internet.

Your power bill subscriptions are a really common one to catch you out.

Are there areas in life where people commonly overpay and are there good tactics

to get around that power?

Yeah, Power's the biggest one, I reckon, because our research shows 95% of people can save money on their power bills.

95, that's high.

95% of power switch users.

I should caveat that Power Switch is a comparison product.

It's a website, powerswitch.org nz.

You can plug in your power usage and work out whether you're with the right company.

Again, this requires becoming a bit of a nerd.

There's someone I work with, Paul Fuge is the powerswitch manager and he has gamed the system so that often the power company is paying him.

His power bill is not just nothing, but he's got.

So he's got solar, so positive.

Yeah, he's got solar on his roof, he's got a hot water heat pump, he's got EV cars and bikes and he's that into it.

I love these people, but I'm always just like, come and tell me what to do.

I cannot be you.

But I would like your tips.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And again, you've gotta have the money, right?

Solar's expensive.

Hot water heat pumps are five or six thousand dollars.

They are expensive.

People tend to stick with what they've got.

Right?

I'll give you an example.

We've bought this house, we're moving into a house.

It's got gas, hot water.

That is the most expensive way of heating hot water in your house.

The estimate I've been given could be up to 150 every couple of months.

And so we're immediately installing a hot water heat pump, which we've been told can bring it way, way down.

But we're building that into the mortgage because it's not cheap.

I think it's nearly $6,000 for a hot water heat pump, but it'll pay for itself in three years.

So you need to know your power usage when you use these things.

Are you someone who will run around the house and put all of the dishwasher and the washing machine on after 11 o', clock, when power's at its lowest, that kind of thing?

Or are you someone who just wants to use power when you need it.

And you don't want to be that nerdy about it or the website will ask you all of those details.

But power's not cheap.

It's estimated to go up again, to be going up again this year.

We got up to nearly $400 in a month last winter and winter's not that far away.

It's coming around again.

Yeah.

Well, I love what you were saying there, but are you someone who's willing to run around and put things on at certain times?

Because we even did that, we would have things on timers even.

Because I, you know, I've got two young kids, they really like to get up early, but not my cup of tea.

But I have learned that they're setting the awake times, not me.

And so we're quite early to bed.

But I've got, you know, things like the dishwasher and whatever, they're on timers.

So they start up, you know, at I think four in the morning.

And so everything's ready and good to go by the time we get up.

But it's in that off peak power time.

We also did invest in solar and we used one of those 0% home loans on that.

I mean it's, it's a hack for someone who is a homeowner and so that sucks to be able to rent and I'm sorry that you don't have that option.

But if you are a homeowner and you can make that investment, those 0% home loans for sort of green things are a great option to look into.

It means you can pay it off quite quickly and make that investment, make a bit more financial sense.

Looking for these little hacks.

So helpful.

But like you say, it takes time.

Right.

Do you have any tips and tricks for how you go about researching this stuff without it turning into a second job?

Consumer's got all this stuff on its website.

It's all there.

You need to educate yourself, you need to advocate for yourself, you need to ask for these things.

You can't just sit back and go, that's just what it is.

And so yeah, maybe you're only saving 100 or $150 on your power bill by switching, but when you couple that with a couple of cheaper insurance options, bringing your grocery bills down, suddenly you're saving.

Real money can add up to hundreds and it's like hundreds on a weekly or monthly basis.

That's lots of money.

Yeah.

And I don't know you, I've got places that money can go.

Yeah, exactly.

It's like the conversation I just had with my four year old the other day.

And you know, they ask why questions about everything under the sun and so why don't you want to crash the car?

Money.

Because I don't want to be in a car crash.

But I said, well, you know, that would cost money to fix and I'd rather spend money on fun things.

And I was thinking about it, I was like, I think that's one of the most true things I've said to him.

But you know, when I'm sort of doing a bit of this, you know, maintenance, the admin work.

I hate admin.

Oh yeah.

But you know, say we're watching a TV show and it's, it's the adult time of evening.

We finally get to watch a TV show that isn't Mary Poppins or Paw Patrol or whatever.

But it's not my choice, it's the husband's choice.

We're going to alternate and tonight it's his choice.

While I might be semi watching this, but putting in a couple of insurance quotes while we've got it on in the background and that's still a nice time.

I've still got my feet up on my husband.

I've just got the laptop out and running around.

I've got something brainless that I'm somewhat invested in, but I'm not that invested in.

And you're just putting in a couple of online quotes or you're just doing the online shop and scheduling it to pick up tomorrow after the school run.

And if you can build it into your life in this way, I think you just make it part of the routine and a nice part of the routine.

Do it like a little bite at a time and it's not so bad.

Great advice.

Yeah, that's, that's how I kind of approach it.

Because you need to have energy for it.

How much do you think is on us as individuals?

It is on us.

You're right.

You know, like, like we talked about earlier, your power company's not gonna call you and say, hey, do you want a discount on this?

Your insurance company isn't gonna call you and say, it's time to look at this and give you some lower rates.

They're just not going to do that.

Right?

They're not in that business, unfortunately.

They're banking on you doing that, not asking for discounts.

That's what they want.

They want you to just sit there and pay that monthly or annual fee and just keep rolling it over to

accept it as normal.

They're really hoping that this just gets bettered in as normal.

Whereas if we all start pushing back, actually that is a way that some of this madness can wind back a little bit.

Yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna get a lot of phone calls after this, aren't they?

I hope so.

If there's.

Because we've talked about a few different areas and a few different tactics.

If people were feeling a bit overwhelmed after listening to all this and being like, I don't know where to like, yes to all of that, but I don't know where to start.

What do you think are the most high impact areas of what we've talked about today?

Oh, power bill for sure.

If that works for you.

Get on a roll.

Actually writing out everything that you are subscribed to or are paying for and maybe because it's personal, but maybe ranking which ones are most important to you and which ones are costing you the most and targeting those first.

And just see, see if you can get a win or two because it can be quite addictive.

It can, you know, once you get

a win, you're going to feel more motivated, you're going to get that little boost and you're like, oh, I could do that elsewhere.

Exactly.

It's not going to be boring admin anymore.

You're like, I'm winning against these big companies.

I can do more of this.

It does feel like a win.

And you know, we're a little short on those in this day and age, so here's a way to do it.

I love it.

All right.

And if people want more from you and your work, where can they find you?

Consumer.org NZ There are all kinds of tips and tricks to help you save money.

There's Perfect mate.

Thank you so much for coming on.

Chris Schultz, investigative journalist for Consumers now, if you want more like this, of course, first of all, hit subscribe any way you're listening to Making Sense.

And send this episode to a friend so we can all level up with money together.

Until next time, though, have a great day.

This podcast can only give you general information about how things work in most situations.

It's not individual financial advice.

If you're after that, a financial advisor is always the best bet.