[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence-based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. [00:00:15] As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information myths and those classic old wives tales. I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is The [00:00:30] Science of Motherhood.
[00:00:30] Dr Renee White: Hello and welcome to episode 188 of The Science of Motherhood. I'm your host, Dr. Renee White, and this episode is proudly brought to you by Fill Your Cup Doulas, which is the amazing doula [00:00:45] village that I lead the charge at here in Australia. We have been looking after overwhelmed and sleep deprived mamas since 2020, and boy oh boy, has it been an absolute ride for [00:01:00] all those playing at home.
[00:01:00] Dr Renee White: If you don't know what a doula is or this is like your first time listening, first of all, thank you and welcome. A doula is someone who is a non medicalised person. They assist and [00:01:15] support mums through pregnancy and birth, and in those newborn early days, and I guess we exist at Fill Your Cup, because we really truly believe in the transformative power of [00:01:30] support during one of life's most significant transitions, and that is welcoming a new child and becoming a mum.
[00:01:39] Dr Renee White: What really sets us apart is the fact that, I've got over 16 years of health and [00:01:45] medical education and with that we really understand how to replenish, restore, and support mamas in the thick of motherhood. We've got doulas across Australia, including Melbourne, Hobart, Sydney, [00:02:00] Geelong, Newcastle, Brisbane, and the Gold Coast.
[00:02:03] Dr Renee White: And we are very evidence-based and that is why a lot of our families come to us. Some of the top reasons we've got, people have said, you know, essentially [00:02:15] excellent service. It's a really impactful and memorable experience. They feel really well supported. I'm gonna read out some of like the beautiful words that we've got from our families.
[00:02:26] Dr Renee White: Paris, who we had as a mama a couple of years [00:02:30] ago. She said, I don't think I could have made it out the other side without it, which, it's just so beautiful and we're so lucky to walk alongside her. Rachel said, I'll be recommending this service to everyone I know. Jen, [00:02:45] who was supported by our gorgeous doer, Amanda in Melbourne.
[00:02:48] Dr Renee White: She said it was like the best friend you could ask for, but without all the silly unsolicited advice and judgment, family and friends tend to bring with them. We have [00:03:00] got amazing reviews from all of the families that we've supported, and it has been over 100 families and counting here at Fill Your Cup, if you are pregnant, you know someone who's pregnant or you're in those early [00:03:15] newborn days and you're thinking, my goodness, I would love to have a Mary Poppins to Mothers, which includes someone holding your baby while you go have sleep or a shower or you know, rock out to your favorite podcast or [00:03:30] music, then a doula may be someone you might be looking to have as part of your village. If that is the case, pop into the show notes here on the podcast. You can have a look at our website. I fill your [00:03:45] cup.com and head over there and have a look at it all doula service offerings.
[00:03:51] Dr Renee White: Alright, let's jump in today's podcast. Today on the Science of Motherhood, we have got the amazing [00:04:00] Professor Selena Bartlett. Now I have to say, I think I made an error in the first part when I introduced her, I think I called her Dr. Selena Bartlett. That is not the case. She's a Professor.
[00:04:11] Dr Renee White: She has absolutely well and truly deserved that [00:04:15] title, so excuse my error for that. Professor Selena Bartlett, she's a neuroscientist. I first saw her in the movie Seen, which was a documentary that I saw earlier in the year, and as soon as I saw her, I was like, I need to get her [00:04:30] on the podcast. I previously had the director of the documentary Seen on the podcast, which you may remember was Hailey Bartholomew and she was in episode 176.
[00:04:43] Dr Renee White: And as soon as I saw [00:04:45] her, um, on the screen. I, I got home, I emailed, uh, Hailey and I said, can I please have Selena's details? I need to speak to this woman because she put this amazing image up on [00:05:00] the screen and she showed the MRI brain scans of a child who had had consistent love, connection, communication with an adult and one that does [00:05:15] not.
[00:05:15] Dr Renee White: And it was chalk and cheese, as you can probably imagine. And so I've got Selena on the podcast. We're talking about the neuroscience and the wiring of parents and children's brains, and [00:05:30] we are going to deep dive into screen time because I know it is a highly controversial topic and you know, we are probably all leaning on it, maybe a little bit too much.
[00:05:43] Dr Renee White: Selena's got the data. She's [00:05:45] read the research and she's very, very passionate about this. You'll hear that she started in a field of pharmacy and due to a very personal experience, she transitioned over to [00:06:00] neuroscience, looking at neuroplasticity, stress and most importantly, mental health. So Selena is on a mission, and you'll hear this, to help people rewire their brains for resilience and joy.
[00:06:12] Dr Renee White: She's also the founder of the Thriving Minds [00:06:15] podcast and the author of Being Seen a book and audio book about protecting children's mental health in the digital age. And this is what we really focus on in this podcast. It is fascinating, uh, [00:06:30] fascinating to hear the research from Selena. And I just wanna, I just wanna couch this by saying that it sounds all very doom and gloom when we talk about this research because we talk about the [00:06:45] results and the effect that screen time is having on children.
[00:06:49] Dr Renee White: But I want to say, and you'll hear this by the end of the podcast, is that whilst it is a bit dire, there are so many things that we can do. And I think [00:07:00] as long as you go into this understanding that when it comes to the brain, it is neuroplastic, which means whilst things have been wired, we have the opportunity and we [00:07:15] have the ability to rewire the brain.
[00:07:19] Dr Renee White: And it is a fascinating and amazing thing that we have as human beings, as someone who has, um, you know, worked on my own mental [00:07:30] health, you know, for over a decade. I can tell you that the hard wiring that we acquire during our childhood and adolescence and early adulthood, we have the [00:07:45] capacity to circuit, break, and rewire.
[00:07:48] Dr Renee White: It's possible. It really is and so whilst you listen to this podcast, you might feel a little bit down because of the results of the, of these studies. [00:08:00] But we can make a difference and it can start today. And it's not, it, it's not an opportunity to lose hope because we, we can start to see and make a change.
[00:08:12] Dr Renee White: So without further ado, here [00:08:15] is Professor Selena Bartlett. Hello and welcome to the podcast Dr. Selena Bartlett. How are you today?
[00:08:24] Prof. Selena Bartlett: I'm great. How are you?
[00:08:26] Dr Renee White: I am fantastic now, uh, for all those [00:08:30] playing at home. They will know that from the introduction and also obviously the title of the podcast that they've clicked on, that we are gonna be talking about neuroscience.
[00:08:38] Dr Renee White: We're gonna be talking about screen time, and I, we've just been quickly talking offline and I was like, oh my [00:08:45] God, we need to hit record because there's so much that we are going to actually chat about in this episode. I'm so, so excited. But before we dive down that rabbit hole, Selena, can we just get a little bit of background for the listeners about who you are, [00:09:00] what your research is kind of about in a bit of a nutshell?
[00:09:03] Dr Renee White: And I also love when I interview scientists, I also love to know what was the catalyst? Was there something that happened to you personally where you were like, this is [00:09:15] why I am gonna do science and this is the reason.
[00:09:17] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Absolutely. So, hi everyone. I am, uh, Professor Selena Bartlett. I run a research lab in Brisbane and I got into science because, uh, my sister had a mental illness in Brisbane in [00:09:30] 1989 and I was a pharmacist at the time.
[00:09:31] Prof. Selena Bartlett: I'd just finished my degrees in mathematics and pharmacy. I was in the middle of my honors year at UQ and I got a phone call from my mother saying, Selena come quickly and my sister end up in a lockup ward in north Brisbane. Mm, where there are padded cells and people getting [00:09:45] overdoses, Paliperidone to sedate them.
[00:09:47] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And I was in that with her in and out 'cause she was made a ward of the state and we couldn't do anything about it. So my mum and I went there for three weeks and I was in the middle of my honors year looking at why people buy cough and cold medications [00:10:00] in a pharmacy. And I was gonna open pharmacies for women a cooperative anyway, but in that moment when my sister was sitting there catatonic, um, and they said, well, she's probably gonna have this forever and there's nothing we can do about it.
[00:10:12] Prof. Selena Bartlett: I just thought, oh, we mustn't know how the brain works. This [00:10:15] is 1989 in Brisbane. Mm-hmm. So I went and retooled and did my PhD in Neuropharmacology and I've been trying to work it out ever since. And, and I worked it out and it took a long time and I've been working in labs all around the world. So I went from PhD in Neuropharmacology to [00:10:30] post-doc at ANU and the top neuroscience program there.
[00:10:33] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And then I traveled to the US and ran my own research lab there for nearly 20 years. And in that space I was developing drugs and I was really getting into trying to understand the brain at a deep level. Mm-hmm. And I really thought if I [00:10:45] just developed the next best thing and understood the brain, and you'll understand this, Renee as a biochemist.
[00:10:50] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. What I mean by how I got into the nuts and bolts, I was one of those people manipulating that amino acid in the Yeah. In the determinist of that deep protein couple receptor [00:11:00] and doing the genetic mouse models and all of that. And I ran a, ran a huge lab and I had tons of funding to do that. And then I recognised after 20 years of doing that, I was kind of going in the wrong direction.
[00:11:11] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. And I got a wake up call and it led me [00:11:15] into, and I won't go into the details, but re led me into neuroplasticity. Mm-hmm. And it also led me into understanding exactly why my sister got a mental illness. Mm-hmm. And I was in the total wrong pathway. And it's not that there's one pathway, it's, there's a middle way here.
[00:11:29] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So I [00:11:30] want PE people listening to not think. That it's not medicine and it's, and it's something on the other side. It's a middle way of us coming together to understand holistically what drives these, these multi-generational impacts on the brain that lead [00:11:45] to mental health mm-hmm disorders.
[00:11:46] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:47] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And, uh, so I worked that out in 2013, after 20 something years, and then I retool my lab and changed everything into early life experiences.
[00:11:57] Prof. Selena Bartlett: The impact of, and we'll get into that soon, [00:12:00] but really, what, what are the mechanisms that drive neuroplasticity, right? Our ability to change and heal, using the brain's amazing capacity for this, and also understanding the truth, the facts, what drives mental health and without. Marrying [00:12:15] those two areas, then we're gonna just keep, pick treating symptoms, labeling people, and uh, and, and that's, there's some value in that.
[00:12:22] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So I am not saying there's no value in where we are up to in this part of our society and world, but [00:12:30] we do understand and we do understand what causes it. We do understand how we can change it. And neuroplasticity, which is what this podcast, um, will focus on, is the solution in some ways. Well, it's a tool in a kit.
[00:12:43] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Uh, and that's what I am very [00:12:45] passionate about and that's why I have come on your podcast where I have books and have my own podcast. And I do a lot as a hobby outside my QT role. I have as a hobby, a lot of my books and work in education, the public. [00:13:00] And that's where the documentary film comes in. That's the next step because people aren't reading books anymore. They're watching films. So that's where the Seen, and we can go into how that all came about, which is,
[00:13:12] Dr Renee White: yeah,
[00:13:13] Prof. Selena Bartlett: beautiful 'cause people are reacting [00:13:15] to that in a way that's both scary but also wonderful. And we can talk about both of those opportunities.
[00:13:22] Dr Renee White: Amazing. And that's exactly where I saw you, uh, for the first time in the Seen documentary, um, in [00:13:30] Hobart. It was amazing. I was saying to you offline, like every time you popped up on the screen and you were kind of validating what their parents' experiences were with evidence. And like, you know, as a scientist, I'm like, oh my [00:13:45] God, this is amazing.
[00:13:45] Dr Renee White: I need to speak to Selena straight away about this. And I contacted Hailey and I was like, I need her details please. I, I wanna ask so, you know, obviously the movie is about, you know, four [00:14:00] parents and they share their experience as a parent, but we talk a lot about, and you could see from, from that movie, the own, their own imprints of their childhood.
[00:14:11] Dr Renee White: And so my question to you is, you know, [00:14:15] how does. How does a parent's own stress or like, you know, unresolved trauma neurologically impact their children even before they're born? Like, you know what, what's going on there?
[00:14:28] Prof. Selena Bartlett: You're gonna love this, Renee. [00:14:30] 'cause it's total biochemist. Yes.
[00:14:33] Dr Renee White: Love this.
[00:14:35] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So, and, and that's the beauty of where we are scientifically, right? Yeah. So science, everyday science advances. So what we thought we knew in the past changes every day, but [00:14:45] we get stuck in what we knew in the past, right? Mm-hmm. So, so why is this happening? So what. What drives this imprint. Mm-hmm. And this is so cool because it takes us to 1953 science. Then it takes us to 2000 [00:15:00] advances in science, and then it takes us right through now to 2020 advances.
[00:15:04] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So if I could just link those three things together, you'll see the future as well. Mm-hmm. So in the past, right, we knew that in 1953, we were all of a sudden discovered the spiral structure [00:15:15] of DNA.
[00:15:15] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:16] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Right? So Watson Creek, who took Roslyn Franklin's x-rays and saw the, the crystal structure of DNA and recognised it was a spiral structure, right?
[00:15:26] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:26] Prof. Selena Bartlett: That was a hundred years of science.
[00:15:28] Dr Renee White: Mm.
[00:15:29] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And they were [00:15:30] on a table with a jigsaw puzzle. They manipulated these pieces and turned it around. That completely transformed our understanding of where we came from.
[00:15:37] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:38] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So that's link one. That's a massive advance. Because that's where sequencing came into place.
[00:15:43] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So now we can sequence [00:15:45] every cell in our body, right? Yeah. And in the brain too, we can sequence every neuron in the brain. So that's step one. Step two, when I became a neuroscientist, I got really lucky Renee, because guess what? They discovered how to see inside the living [00:16:00] brain. Mm-hmm. Using, using, uh, flu fluorescent markers.
[00:16:04] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And this is the work of Joy Hirsh and many others. And I interview her on my podcast, so she discovered functional MRI or Magnetic Resonance Imaging. Right. So now [00:16:15] we can see. What's happening inside the brain, we can't make it up by just looking at people anymore.
[00:16:20] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:16:21] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So all up until that point, which I would say is probably 8,000 plus more years of, of psychology philosophy, and all of these things has really been [00:16:30] focused on try and understand people from looking at their behavior.
[00:16:34] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:34] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And that's the work of Pavlovian Conditioning and Skinner and all the rest. And there's a lot of value to that, to that point. But now guess what? We can see it and now we can [00:16:45] ask different questions. Mm-hmm. And this gets us to the stimulus, right? Yeah. So the what's causing these behaviors.
[00:16:52] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:52] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Well, because it's driven by system, a brain system and a body system, the nervous system, if you wanna call it that. So that's another big advance. So [00:17:00] that's 1953, 1993 ish until, until. That was still kind of nascent until it exploded and there's now thousands of papers. Okay, so that's two big things. The next big thing that's transforming this [00:17:15] understanding is the understanding that early life experiences shape the way those genes.
[00:17:22] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Now this is the work of epigenetics, right? Mm-hmm. So we have our hardware, which is the genes, but then we have our experiences, [00:17:30] our life experiences, which then modify the way those genes are expressed. Mm-hmm. It's called epigenetics, but there's obviously more to it than that even. Yeah. Um, and we won't go down that pathway 'cause that's called transgenerational epigenetic inheritance. Yeah. That's a whole new field.
[00:17:44] Dr Renee White: Everyone's [00:17:45] gonna ask, can I buy a vowel, please?
[00:17:47] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah, exactly. Um, and so, so what are we, what are we saying here? Well, so now we can see inside the human brain, we now know what causes, how the circuits are interacting. It's a living, living [00:18:00] system.
[00:18:00] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:00] Prof. Selena Bartlett: It's not a static system. So that's how experiences. Your environment. That's how the, the love and care and attention you get. That's how even before you are born, before the sperm and [00:18:15] egg come into play, they've already been living in an experience themselves, right? Mm-hmm. And they're coming from, as you know, because of genetics.
[00:18:22] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Billions of years of evolution. Yeah. Right. And we can map it all and understand it really precisely. [00:18:30] Okay. So that, that takes us to how that happens, right? That's why food has a massive impact on your mental health. That's why parenting and care taking and your education and, and how you react to hard times in your life and [00:18:45] how you pick yourself up through hard times, how you manage yourself and your all sorts of things, stress, anxiety, uh, also impacts the way the brain will deal with it.
[00:18:54] Prof. Selena Bartlett: That's how big this is, and that's why it's such a cool future. Mm-hmm. Okay. So [00:19:00] then what happened? So now, uh, since COVID. Amazing joy who discovered functional MRI guess what she did during COVID
[00:19:09] Dr Renee White: definitely didn't bake sourdough bread probably. Or maybe she did. Maybe that was her hobby [00:19:15]
[00:19:15] Prof. Selena Bartlett: for her lab. She did it for her lab. So her lab, she's at Yale and she came from Columbia 'cause her husband won a Nobel Prize and they were recruiting her with him 'cause she's amazing. And they gave her this huge pot of money. So she dedicated that pot of research money to, [00:19:30] to saying, so I've done all the fr, you know, I've done all the functional MRI and I've been studying the brain as a single thing because you put one brain into a scanner and you study it.
[00:19:41] Prof. Selena Bartlett: What happens and how can I create the [00:19:45] tools and technology to see what happens when you put two together? Two brains together. Right? Face-to-face or on zoom right. So his student had to go back to China. So they did this incredible experiment that's [00:20:00] published where they looked at face-to-face in-person contact and the brain areas activated and what's happening there and measuring into brain synchrony.
[00:20:10] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:10] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Right. So this is the new area. Parental neuroscience of inter brain, synchrony of the, [00:20:15] of activating more, just not focusing only on your own own brain, but looking at a higher level of how you can activate other people in really cool ways that improve your own mental health. It's a whole new area and science is really moving into this [00:20:30] section.
[00:20:30] Prof. Selena Bartlett: This is the 1953 moment for neuroscience.
[00:20:33] Dr Renee White: Wow.
[00:20:33] Prof. Selena Bartlett: But also the science in general because we can now measure bioelectric fields around organs and things like that, which makes a lot of sense for how things grow so quickly. Mm-hmm. And on repeat patterns. Yeah. So that's [00:20:45] a whole new area that's really going to be the way for the next 50 years of science.
[00:20:49] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. So that gets us to not tackled in the film 'cause they filmed me two years ago and I didn't even have access to all of this information. Yeah. Just getting into this new area. [00:21:00] But that makes so much sense to me as a neuroscientist.
[00:21:03] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:21:03] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So why are we so impactful and why is the film, it's called Seen and I'll, I can tell you why that is, but.
[00:21:11] Prof. Selena Bartlett: This, this impact is so direct, right? It's so [00:21:15] direct. Our mood, our whole being, the environment because of how well we feeling impacts, how well we create the environment that we're living in. Mm-hmm. And that environment massively impacts the way the brain develops, especially [00:21:30] between the first cell being born, which is a brain cell right through all of time, but specifically big time between zero first brain cell.
[00:21:44] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:44] Prof. Selena Bartlett: [00:21:45] Zero. I call that to definitely hugely the first 3, 5, 6, 7, 8 years of age. And, and then obviously we know that the brain for a man is not fully developed till 20 [00:22:00] male, till 25 and 22 for female. That's the really top part of the brain that allows us to sit back and make whole space or not overreact to, you know how we react really fast.
[00:22:13] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:14] Prof. Selena Bartlett: That's because we [00:22:15] don't have a fully formed prefrontal cortex or, and other things. Right. So this, because of what we just discussed, scientifically understanding this
[00:22:25] Dr Renee White: mm-hmm.
[00:22:26] Prof. Selena Bartlett: That's why I could go to that film with confidence. Yeah. Because I've been doing this [00:22:30] for so long and, and understanding all of the scientific advances.
[00:22:34] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:35] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And then people bringing their lived experience that just, they're coming in at it different ways. Yeah. And I think that's what Haley was trying to show. But what I would like to see is a whole [00:22:45] updating of all of the textbooks and training manuals so that people having aren't having to go on journeys to discover the facts.
[00:22:53] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. And then look it out themselves. The hard way, in a way.
[00:22:56] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
[00:22:57] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Really grateful for, and it's wonderful 'cause people can [00:23:00] resonate at different levels, but imagine if you just had, we're taught the facts, like we were taught how to read and write.
[00:23:06] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:23:07] Prof. Selena Bartlett: You see what I'm saying?
[00:23:08] Prof. Selena Bartlett: That that's the frustrating part as a scientist is that people will say, finally, the science is catching up. Well, if it had caught [00:23:15] up, why are you having to do 10 journeys to get the facts that, do you know what I mean? Like Yeah. If the facts were in the textbooks and training manuals and common knowledge, there wouldn't be 4,000 journeys to get to the same facts.
[00:23:27] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:23:27] Prof. Selena Bartlett: That's, that's just how I would like to see the [00:23:30] change and I see it coming.
[00:23:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:23:31] Prof. Selena Bartlett: But I've already been trying for 14 years teaching in these spaces. It's just because we're so tied to our identity, we don't like to think the brain can be taked out. Like, we don't like to think that you can take this thing and put it over here for a bit [00:23:45] and train it like you go to the gym.
[00:23:46] Dr Renee White: Yes. Yes. Which is a good point. And like, you know, you talk about neuroplasticity, and I think this is one of the things. I have to say, when I was a new parent, I had a moment with my daughter when she was three [00:24:00] and she's a pretty chilled out kid, you know? And all of a sudden one night
[00:24:04] Prof. Selena Bartlett: she the first child.
[00:24:05] Dr Renee White: Yes. Yeah. She just had this explosion of emotion and it just came out of nowhere. And I was like, what the heck? [00:24:15] And I remember thinking, I'm not prepared for this. I don't know how to react. I didn't know what to do to calm her down. And so I ended up finding Dan Siegel's book, whole [00:24:30] brainchild. And the thing that I loved about that was many things.
[00:24:33] Dr Renee White: Like I loved the science of it all, but I remember when I was reading passages in it and he was talking about neuroplasticity and he was talking about the fact that, and I almost was like, uh, [00:24:45] is this like a quote unquote parenting book, which is actually disguised as, you know, a book where it's okay everyone, we realized that you probably haven't dealt with your own childhood, [00:25:00] but he was like, it's okay because the brain's neuroplastic and so you can kind of go back and do the work and rewire and things like that.
[00:25:07] Dr Renee White: And I remember having this moment to myself going, oh God, thank goodness. You know, like not, it's not all doom and [00:25:15] gloom. Like we can kind of go back and, and, and rewire and things like that. And so yeah, it's, it's a positive feeling to have.
[00:25:24] Prof. Selena Bartlett: But imagine if you didn't have to work that out.
[00:25:26] Dr Renee White: I know. Absolutely.
[00:25:28] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Imagine if you were shown that like as you are [00:25:30] working with all these amazing new parents and Yes. People. Yes. Imagine if you were given that instead of just learning how to breastfeed and get organic milk and healthy lunchboxes. Yeah. And if you were shown that early life experiences have a dramatic of, uh, other number one thing [00:25:45] that if you modify, have the long-term mental wellness strategy in at hand.
[00:25:50] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And so like,
[00:25:51] Prof. Selena Bartlett: 'cause the food doesn't matter unless you do this piece basically.
[00:25:54] Dr Renee White: E Exactly. So that's my point though. So like if you, so I guess [00:26:00] how do we explain that to parents, you know, like how can understanding this concept?
[00:26:06] Prof. Selena Bartlett: I think that the documentary partly was to do that in a way, just to do it in a film way.
[00:26:11] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Um, obviously young parents aren't gonna get out to the cinema all [00:26:15] the time and what will get easier with time, but you know, they're listening to you now. Right. So just so the reason this is happening is because. No one's been shown or given the knowledge.
[00:26:28] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:29] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Just how big [00:26:30] that imprint from your parents was on your brain network.
[00:26:34] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. So why does it happen under stress? That's the key, right? So you're trying your best. Every parent, every parent of a new child comes in saying, I'm not going to [00:26:45] do this and I'm not going to do that. And I am you. I'm a parent, and I did exactly what you did. My son was about three. I remember the moment exactly, and I'm only learning this with time and practice.
[00:26:58] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. Like I'm no [00:27:00] expert, I'm just a human being, learning as I go, but I'm learning through the science, which is a really interesting way, and to change myself along that journey too.
[00:27:10] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:27:11] Prof. Selena Bartlett: But parents and caretakers and adults, [00:27:15] adults have a huge impact because the only thing children can do between zero and three is mimic adults.
[00:27:21] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. That's what the brain is designed to do. That's it. Mm. Or the mirror neuron system. It's called the attention [00:27:30] network system. If I were to strip back and show you what a baby's brain is, looks like, and it, imagine if we could do this too to young parents to show them what their capable of, this is the only thing their capable of, and this is what their brain is only [00:27:45] designed to do between this and this age because it's so important for their survival.
[00:27:51] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm. They can't get up and walk to the shop. They can't put themselves to sleep. They can't do all sorts of things, so they rely heavily and their, and the brain's being [00:28:00] built to draw and activate our attention.
[00:28:03] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:03] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Right. To get our attention for survival. It's as simple as that. That's it.
[00:28:07] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:28:08] Prof. Selena Bartlett: nothing more than that. And, and yeah, because the brain is social, because we're a part of tribes [00:28:15] and, and all sorts of things and other survival, important mechanism. 50% of the brain is designed to just read your face. Yes. To grab your attention. Right. And if it's not happening, then they have mechanisms in [00:28:30] place to get it. And so, so for example, and I'm sure we're gonna go down this rabbit hole in a minute, but now people are on their phones.
[00:28:38] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:39] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And so this is the greatest crisis that's faced all of us. Um, it's much greater than anything in the past. [00:28:45] But we can talk about traumatic childhoods and everything, but, but without dealing about the screens because they're handed to nine month old babies and beyond now.
[00:28:53] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:53] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Because they're really great for soothing. Yeah. 'cause it grabs their attention like that.
[00:28:59] Dr Renee White: Right.
[00:28:59] Prof. Selena Bartlett: It's [00:29:00] to calm straight away. So it makes sense why a stressed out parents and they're not learning how to deal with their own emotions first, why this is happening. Mm-hmm. But this is really changing their faces and their ability to do emotional self-regulation.[00:29:15]
[00:29:15] Prof. Selena Bartlett: It's a big deal. Yes. And so that speaks to answering that question. Yeah. So when we're under stress, the only, even though we wanna not be our parents in a moment, like we don't wanna smack our kids, we don't wanna do what we saw or whatever the situation [00:29:30] that's you are hearing for you listening. Mm-hmm.
[00:29:33] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Um, we all have those stories and it's, we've all seen a lot of things in our childhood and it was our parents try and do the best they could at the time without any knowledge.
[00:29:42] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:29:43] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Not to reach straight for compassion [00:29:45] because it also impacted us, right? Mm-hmm. So we talk a lot about that in the film, but under stress because the way the brain works, as I mentioned to you, that part front part of the brain goes completely immediately offline.
[00:29:58] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So that crying [00:30:00] is natural reaction for us to go offline 'cause we wanna soothe. We don't want them to feel that way, right? It's mm-hmm. We can't sit with it and let them feel that way either, right? As a strategy to, so they can work out that they're safe and you know, all of those mechanisms in their brain [00:30:15] immediately.
[00:30:16] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Because the parental learning, remember it's learnt behavior from nought to three is immediately pulled out in a millisecond. There's a brain circuit that's taking your stressed out brain to that memory bank and pulling it out from the [00:30:30] hippocampus. So that's why, that's what that is. So when we talk about neuroplasticity, what's the first thing we'd wanna do is to put a loop there, right?
[00:30:39] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. A one second pause loop. And that's talked about by Terry in the film and I [00:30:45] love his consciousness.
[00:30:46] Dr Renee White: Yes, he was great.
[00:30:47] Prof. Selena Bartlett: He's great. And that's a really cool thing. That's a really cool strategy that he talks about how to build that, I call it just a brain pause. Mm-hmm. I like to think of the brain as a muscle.
[00:30:59] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. Not him [00:31:00] having to do all this work and it's all on him. I think of it as a lack of education in our society around the brain is also a muscle and it there is a lot of stimulus side you can work on that doesn't require you having to dig into your identity and how horrible you [00:31:15] are and how dare you have all these thoughts going around because it is something that was given to you to survive.
[00:31:22] Prof. Selena Bartlett: That was your survival strategy. Mm-hmm. So there's just these other tools that I'd like to see introduced for people to understand that this is all our brains, it's [00:31:30] evolution. We're actually incredibly powerful people that we've survived millions of years of like, we're amazing, aren't we?
[00:31:36] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Oh God.
[00:31:36] Prof. Selena Bartlett: You and I could be sitting here in a podcast after billions of years of evolution. Yeah. Lots of chances of us being here.
[00:31:43] Dr Renee White: Exactly.
[00:31:44] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And we [00:31:45] are in the icing sugar of life in Australia. Yeah. We have a pretty fortunate place and I think we lose that because we only see the icing sugar. We don't see,
[00:31:52] Dr Renee White: I love that analogy, the icing sugar of life.
[00:31:55] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. My husband and I say that to each other all the time that we are dancing in the icing sugar of [00:32:00] life. But, but you get so caught up in the icing sugar that you don't recognise there's a whole sponge cake underneath you. Yeah. And, and then we start thinking we've got it hard 'cause we only see. What stuck around us.
[00:32:14] Prof. Selena Bartlett: [00:32:15] Yeah. You know what I mean? Like yeah. And com, the comparison thing. And I think that's happening a lot too, because we've become really wealthy. Yeah. And lucky.
[00:32:21] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah. I wanna talk about this excessive screen time. Yes a bit because you know, I,
[00:32:28] Prof. Selena Bartlett: it's a huge deal and [00:32:30] you are an amazing opportunity to make small change there.
[00:32:33] Dr Renee White: Yeah. I mean, we see
[00:32:35] Prof. Selena Bartlett: impact.
[00:32:35] Dr Renee White: Yeah. We see like some, I don't know, like I kind of look at both things. I mean, we hear people who are like, it's okay for your kids to have some screen [00:32:45] time. And then there's other people who are like hard, no. Like, you know, I know some people who are just like, there's no tv, there's no iPads, there's no devices in the house at all.
[00:32:53] Dr Renee White: There are some camps where like, you know, it's 30 minutes at a time, like per day. Like [00:33:00] what? What is the research telling us? And I think the other thing that I would love to know is, are there any really surprising brain changes that have been found in children related to [00:33:15] excessive screen time. And I'd also like to, 'cause I am a, you know, like, I love the definition.
[00:33:20] Dr Renee White: So like, what is excessive screen time versus what's a healthy version of screen time? Does that actually exist?
[00:33:27] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Well, there's a, a really [00:33:30] excellent research paper that just, and the papers are coming that, that, remember, research takes five to 10 years.
[00:33:36] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:33:37] Prof. Selena Bartlett: The funding to do the, it's huge, right? Mm-hmm. It takes a long time.
[00:33:40] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yep. Social media and the mobile phone usage only [00:33:45] escalated after 2010. Right. And combined with COVID, so the screen time hockey sticked after 2010, so a lot of the research is still coming. And so this paper I'm just about to describe to you is out of New Zealand, and they did a longitudinal [00:34:00] study actually measuring exactly that question.
[00:34:02] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. They actually followed children from age two through age eight and looked at all the outcomes, both academic achievement, emotional regulation, peer interactions, and looked at [00:34:15] the number of hours of screen time and then looked at what happened as a consequence. Mm-hmm. And I'm happy to show you that paper for your audit.
[00:34:23] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah, absolutely. And there's an amazing graph on there, and every single parameter [00:34:30] decreases as you increase the amount of screen time.
[00:34:32] Dr Renee White: Mm.
[00:34:34] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And it just make, like, all you have to do is think about how you feel when you're on a screen for too long. Yes. Now, apply that to a baby's brain that requires face to face [00:34:45] attention from a healthy adult to have healthy brain development. Remember what I said? The key, the key factor is a healthy adult presence to signal safety and security.
[00:34:58] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:59] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And [00:35:00] I think in the film, um, Vanessa calls it that relationships like air and she describes experiments that show it's the same as food to baby brain.
[00:35:10] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. Yeah. So anything, when I think about screen time is I'm [00:35:15] thinking about brain development and I'm thinking about looking out in the spaces of our society where it's got no one's saying anything to anybody. Because it's like smoking was in the eighties where we all smoked, we're all on our phones.
[00:35:29] Prof. Selena Bartlett: We're all [00:35:30] addicted. So then how can we then say to our children not to use it? Yeah. How can we think that this is bad for us? Yeah. That's, that's where we are. Like smoking was. Mm-hmm. We were all smoking. You won't remember this, but I do. We wear, we're smoking every [00:35:45] building, every space. Ev, doctors, hospitals, everyone.
[00:35:48] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. Right. That's where we are now with screens and it's become so young that you'll see nine month olds in prams on phones.
[00:35:57] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:35:58] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Because we don't like hearing baby [00:36:00] noises anymore either. And people are concerned that their kids are making noises in public spaces when once upon time, that's all you'd hear.
[00:36:07] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. Kids running around, you know, all of these kind of things. And, and, and it, it's a big game changing shift that happened. Mm-hmm. [00:36:15] Slowly, it was just kind of a somewhat a slow burn that then sped up because of COVID. Yeah. So at the moment, Renee, the average, the average global screen time of adults is eight to nine hours a day.
[00:36:28] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Okay. So that's [00:36:30] computers. That's phones, yeah. Okay. TVs. Yeah. Yeah. And do we know what it is for kids? Is there
[00:36:40] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Well, it's, it's, the kids are increasing by the month. [00:36:45] Yeah. And it's, and it's speeding up fast and it's got really young. Yeah. So it used to be like 10, but what they're seeing in schools now is that 10-year-old behavior like hypersexualized behavior. We've got seven year olds going into eating disorder [00:37:00] clinics. Mm-hmm. So everything's moving down to younger and younger ages. Yeah. Because we are not addressing this fast enough.
[00:37:07] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:37:07] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Because we are having these conversations rather than belief around, I mean, it's just intuitive.
[00:37:13] Prof. Selena Bartlett: I mean, it's an [00:37:15] intuitive thing. Mm. Children to be outside playing in nature in the sand pit, getting to know people and be surrounded by love and security to get food. Yeah. I mean, it's just the basis of, you know, it's just the basic [00:37:30] brain nutritional need.
[00:37:32] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:37:33] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And then what we've done is because of the stressed out situation we're living in, uh, where both parents have to work and we're online all the time and COVID that drove us even more online. [00:37:45] And, and this is no blaming here, Renee. This is just facts about Yeah. How it kind of came about. Yeah. And also teachers are dropping like flies outta school. Mm-hmm. 'cause of the behavior and the food that the kids are eating, they're, they've got [00:38:00] 22 of them at once.
[00:38:01] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:38:01] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And that they love the children. They're doing their best, but they've never had it, it got to prep where they're doing, having lockdowns in prep mm-hmm. From kids being emotionally dysregulated. Because if they've been on screens at nighttime, they're not [00:38:15] slip. You know, these basic facts. But if you just start here, you start with a question, if I was to remove the screen and reduce it by an hour, what would be the consequence?
[00:38:26] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. 'cause we don't that as the we we always looking around. [00:38:30] This, but imagine if you and I, and that's why we have to start with the adults. Mm-hmm. Because the adults have to do it first. Yes. Kids are just copying us. So then you don't have to do anything with the kids. Mm-hmm. Because then if you're doing it yourself, then you've got that extra hour to take them into the [00:38:45] park.
[00:38:45] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:46] Prof. Selena Bartlett: You know what I mean? And drop everything and say, Hey guys, get off your things with, and you turn it all off and you say, we're going for a walk in the park.
[00:38:52] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. '
[00:38:53] Prof. Selena Bartlett: cause now you've created the space for yourself. Yeah. So it's all about the adults. The adults are the team. They're the leader of the, [00:39:00] of the sports team.
[00:39:01] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. And then the community and the society are also part of this. So it is a society community thing that has to happen. It's not one person, it's not no one's to blame, it's just the situation that we've [00:39:15] found ourselves in. Because of the convenience.
[00:39:17] Dr Renee White: Yes. Because the
[00:39:18] Prof. Selena Bartlett: convenience is then, you know, impacting our children's brain development, you know?
[00:39:22] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And because I think about. And you're absolutely right because I was gonna ask you about some, you know, some tangible things that [00:39:30] people can integrate. Yeah. But I look at the,
[00:39:31] Prof. Selena Bartlett: I can, yeah, I can give you really three simple things straight away.
[00:39:34] Dr Renee White: I, I, I'd, I wanna do that, but I, I look at the way that, you know, school has transitioned, you know, I, I, I'm [00:39:45] 40, so, you know, I was at school from in the nineties and two thousands.
[00:39:49] Dr Renee White: And so, you know, our teacher would stand at the front of the class writing on a board with chalk or a, or a whiteboard pen or whatever it was. And now I walk into my daughter's [00:40:00] class. There's a giant big TV in there. And so, you know, lots of information's on that tv. All of her, like the NAPLAN test that's on iPads, you know, they have iPad, [00:40:15] um, time where they do reading on there, they do maths on there.
[00:40:18] Dr Renee White: Lots of stuff is on there. And so I'm kind of. I'm in these, I'm in these two thoughts where I see some families who are like, no iPads, no TVs, no devices. And I [00:40:30] think to myself, that's fine. But also how do we teach our kids how to use one and interact on one?
[00:40:40] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Well, uh, can I just say one thing, Renee?
[00:40:42] Dr Renee White: Education systems, like you have to do all your tests on here.[00:40:45]
[00:40:45] Prof. Selena Bartlett: I know, I know. That's why I'm saying it's system, society, and culture. Yeah. It's a top, right, because, so there's multiple things happening around here. So first of all, let's just start with the observation that most tech companies don't allow their children to use any tech until they're 16.[00:41:00]
[00:41:00] Dr Renee White: Yeah
[00:41:00] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So that argument about use, I'm, I'm 60 and I learned how to use one in my fifties and I, I podcast like you. I use every tool that comes to me and I am 60. Mm. So do I need to be taught how to do that? [00:41:15] I'm teaching myself.
[00:41:16] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:41:16] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So, so that argument is a mute argument, especially for young children.
[00:41:21] Prof. Selena Bartlett: They could pick stuff up and they're really good at it. So, but do we want them scrolling and showing us how to scroll really fast? No, but that's what they're doing. They're snapping each other, they're [00:41:30] sending, uh, naked photos to each other very, very young. Our, our devices in Australia are the most unsafe in the world.
[00:41:37] Prof. Selena Bartlett: We have no, no safety, um, at all and, and so, but that's one side. Uh, I [00:41:45] disagree with the argument that kids need to be learning how to do that. I think that's just, uh, I, I just think it's what's happened. It's convenience because multiple factors, we don't have healthy adults providing time to children.[00:42:00]
[00:42:01] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. Because there's devices fill in gaps where adults can't handle the behavior anymore. They speed things up. They mean less humans to pay for and support, like think about it. [00:42:15] That's why I keep saying, and I'll keep coming back to this over and over again. If we just look at the screen first and think about if we remove that from nought to five, or let's say let's ring fence childhood.[00:42:30]
[00:42:30] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Let's say childhood is a basic human right. What does the world look like if we say that they need to have a childhood like we had where we were free? To play with our mates. Climb trees. Smell the flowers. Be children, [00:42:45]
[00:42:45] Dr Renee White: yeah.
[00:42:45] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Not learn three languages, 10 instruments. Uh, get, get a A on a naplan, and the teachers ha are having to deliver this.
[00:42:52] Prof. Selena Bartlett: It's not, it's not on them either. They're, they're under so much pressure that I've never seen before because they have to deliver all this [00:43:00] content that they're babies, what we're talk delivering content to. Mm, when they should be just sitting in the garden, playing with the mud, getting to learn how to fail, how to interact.
[00:43:10] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Because remember, 50% of their brain's social. Yeah. It to feel like they belong. They need [00:43:15] to feel confident in, in navigating the world away from their home. You know, these basic life skills, they build mental resilience and wellness in the brain. It's a brain mechanism. It's a muscle.
[00:43:26] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:26] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Like if they're good and they have the brain for language, [00:43:30] fantastic, that's wonderful. But not everyone does. Some people are dancers, some people are artists, some people are scientists. Some people we don't know what they are and we'll never know until much later. But the one thing we do know is that safety, security and, and healthy [00:43:45] adults that aren't taking out what's ever happened to them onto the next generation is the key factor.
[00:43:51] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So I think there's many things that we have to do, but I think unlocking childhood is a huge one.
[00:43:57] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:57] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And I interviewed someone about this who's an [00:44:00] expert educated, and she was saying, stop stuffing the duck. Like we keep stuffing the duck. If we just provide more information to these children and, and now we're stuffing to the, to the point where now we need to give them mindfulness training to get over all their anxiety that's [00:44:15] been given to them from many generations of stuffing the duck with curriculum and performance.
[00:44:19] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And, and no say like they're, we're overindexing safety in the real world. Mm-hmm. And under indexing safety on the online world. [00:44:30] But if you knew what I knew about the online world, which I don't wanna scare everyone, but if you really knew, you would not have this question in your mind.
[00:44:37] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:38] Prof. Selena Bartlett: It would be not like it can look so lovely at the surface if we need to teach them how to use, but imagine if you knew what I [00:44:45] knew about what they're actually seeing, who's trying to contact them.
[00:44:48] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. Um, there is no safety. Yeah. And so there's initiatives right now. So on the happy side, um, which I like is that there's always a happy side to this, and that's having these [00:45:00] conversations and stimulating energetically people listening. There'll be people listening here that will do something. So there's a initiative at Pymble Ladies College.
[00:45:08] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. Um, the principal there, uh, was up across a big cyber bullying project. And so what they're doing, and I've [00:45:15] interviewed them on my podcast, they've introduced the wise phone initiative.
[00:45:19] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:20] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And so it answers your question, don't, how do we teach them safety?
[00:45:24] Dr Renee White: Mm.
[00:45:24] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So what they've done is they've bought 800, uh, Android phones [00:45:30] and e and they give them out to every child.
[00:45:32] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And this phone follows them through their whole, from starting in year four. And it follows them through their whole journey. The kids get to decorate them.
[00:45:40] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:41] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And then they get a license. As they demonstrate responsibility, [00:45:45] then they have no cameras. And so it's all controlled behind the scenes by the school, and then they get to access different parts, but it's guaranteed safe tech.
[00:45:54] Dr Renee White: Wow.
[00:45:55] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So you as a parent, know. That they're not being targeted through [00:46:00] Roblox messaging apps, through discord, through penguin games, through, you know, because every place on the internet now, every app has a chat bot or, and it's AI algorithm driven, so it's not like it used to be. Yeah. We think you have control.
[00:46:13] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:46:14] Prof. Selena Bartlett: It's, [00:46:15] all of us have been driven algorithmically by this big data networks that know us better than we know what we are liking and doing. They, yeah. We become what we think. We are choosing.
[00:46:26] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:46:27] Prof. Selena Bartlett: But then you look back and go, Ooh, no I [00:46:30] didn't. Oh, I didn't really mean to think like that. You know? I mean, and this is happening to really, and so kids are doing this.
[00:46:38] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And it's got really young, it's in prep now, right?
[00:46:41] Dr Renee White: Wow.
[00:46:41] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So the adolescence film on Netflix de [00:46:45] describes this really deeply and it's, and I have educators contacting me saying, how real is that film, Selena? That's real. It's a dramatization and afic of, and fictionalize. But he did that because of two [00:47:00] murders that happened to 13 year olds in England.
[00:47:02] Prof. Selena Bartlett: He created that film, and it's happening here too, because of this nature of how this, that what we're consuming content wise is actually changing. Right. Our brain. Yeah. That's how we [00:47:15] learn. Yeah. How, and, and you, you know how plastic those little brains are.
[00:47:19] Dr Renee White: Yes
[00:47:19] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Take it in far
[00:47:20] Dr Renee White: and as you say, the algorithm, like you search one thing.
[00:47:24] Dr Renee White: Yes. And then that's what, because the phone, like the algorithm goes, oh, you wanna know more about [00:47:30] that? Okay. Yes. And you just get that for two weeks or more.
[00:47:33] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yes, yes.
[00:47:33] Dr Renee White: And it's just in, in front of you and you're just like, what the heck? That,
[00:47:37] Prof. Selena Bartlett: now think about TikTok.
[00:47:40] Dr Renee White: Yeah. I'm not on TikTok for very good reason, but yes, I do know
[00:47:44] Prof. Selena Bartlett: [00:47:45] seven and eight year olds are.
[00:47:46] Dr Renee White: Yes. Yeah. I,
[00:47:49] Prof. Selena Bartlett: and if you hear what I hear on the ground, I'm out in the real world hearing what's actually going on. And it's pretty
[00:47:57] Dr Renee White: pretty dire.
[00:47:58] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And it's got like, [00:48:00] I think what I'm hearing, and I hear, heard this on my interview with the Anthony from La Pymble Ladies College. It was just the, it just keeps pushing back.
[00:48:08] Prof. Selena Bartlett: It used to be 13, now it's 10. Now it's eight. Because the ubiquitous, you see, it's [00:48:15] ubiquitous. It's so ubiquitous that we don't think we shouldn't do it.
[00:48:18] Dr Renee White: Yes, absolutely. So I, I think I, 'cause we are gonna run out of time before topics, and I knew this was gonna be the case, but I wanna kind of bring this back [00:48:30] and so, you know, we've kind of touched on the fact that, you know, if, if, if mums are kind of breastfeeding, maybe, you know Yes.
[00:48:38] Dr Renee White: Don't sit on your phone. Yeah. I have to ask, what about a Kindle? Is a Kindle different? [00:48:45]
[00:48:45] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. No,
[00:48:46] Dr Renee White: no. It's still a device.
[00:48:47] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So it's so in, so it's the breastfeeding. So with breastfeeding, and you can read the research on this, it's the time when eye to eye contact. Yep. But they're learning how to use their faces by [00:49:00] watching your face and it's
[00:49:01] Dr Renee White: Gotcha.
[00:49:01] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Rapid. Right. Remember what a brain, what is a baby's brain designed to do? Quickly
[00:49:06] Dr Renee White: recognise if it's safe around
[00:49:08] Prof. Selena Bartlett: it needs facial, it needs to know facial. So it's already got the pre network set up, but then it's being shaped [00:49:15] by ensuring that it understands what movements it needs to make to get your attention.
[00:49:21] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. And where is it gonna learn that? Yeah. If it's sleeping in a cot or it's sleeping in a pram. When is the most active time? When is the brain [00:49:30] biggest developing? Right. Yeah. You know how fast they get to sit up from that. Yes. Like, can you imagine what's happening and why they sleep so much? Why do you think they're sleeping so much?
[00:49:42] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Because of all of the brain Yeah. Activity. All of the [00:49:45] things that are happening and Yeah. You know, so it's, so, it's something that's so critical, but we don't give it enough attention. I, and I certainly didn't. I found it really difficult to do myself personally. Especially,
[00:49:57] Dr Renee White: well, the other thing is that we are told by [00:50:00] some quote unquote professionals, you know, if you know when you're putting your baby to sleep, don't make eye contact with them because you'll make them more alert and then they're less likely to go to sleep.
[00:50:11] Dr Renee White: You know, I know that that in hindsight is [00:50:15] not true. Um, if anything, they need made to see your face made because they need to know I'm about to go to sleep, mum. Can you make sure that,
[00:50:22] Prof. Selena Bartlett: I just think we've had so many things like that, but we didn't have the ability. This is the bit Renee, that we need to finish on the hope and the [00:50:30] beauty, and this is a science meeting intuition and practical common sense. Like just be intuitive. You know who you have in front of you. Mm-hmm. You are designed to do this. You're beautiful people. You're all doing the best. You absolutely [00:50:45] can. We are just here to help you see that there's some small things you can put in place and just experiment because each person is coming with a different set of situations and circumstances into this.
[00:50:58] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. Not everyone has the [00:51:00] ability, resources, opportunity, you know, to do things. And so I understand why a screen is so valuable if you are trying to throw dinner on the table. Yeah. And you're a single mum or a dad or you know, I get all of that. So we just have [00:51:15] to become, you know, if we can just take one deep breath and a step back and say we are in survival mode.
[00:51:22] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. Having children is really hard. There are no manuals out there, but there are some simple things that you can do that [00:51:30] will go a long way to protecting their brain health that will give them lifelong mental wellness. So even if you're stressed, 'cause you wanna get them dinner and bath and read and, and then you've gotta do your, you know, get up again and do it all over again.
[00:51:44] Prof. Selena Bartlett: [00:51:45] I'd been there, done that. It was really hard. But when you just take that extra five minutes for yourself, take a deep breath and just recognise that that five minutes of eye to eye contact.
[00:51:58] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:58] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Like, even if you can bring them [00:52:00] in cooking with you, that five minutes of attention goes a long way to making that brain feel safe.
[00:52:08] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. Seen that's why the film's called Seen.
[00:52:11] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:12] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And, and you know, that attention, that [00:52:15] face to face presence is hugely impactful. And the second major thing that you can try to do is what I like to call protect your children from the peanut gallery of what people are saying. You have to have your [00:52:30] children become
[00:52:31] Dr Renee White: mm-hmm.
[00:52:31] Prof. Selena Bartlett: You dunno who you have in front of you, but if you can just grow to step back and just watch, they are someone that's quite unique in many ways. And if you can learn to love yourself enough [00:52:45] so that you can love that person for whatever they become. Mm-hmm. Because it's not necessarily what you think it might be, but when someone truly sees you, supports you for exactly the person you are.
[00:52:59] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. [00:53:00]
[00:53:00] Prof. Selena Bartlett: That's massive. Yeah. And, and that's free. Yeah. And that's, it's not available to all of us. 'cause most of us didn't get it. Yeah. As children, we had to be something. We had to, we had a lot of expectations. We talk about that in the film as well. But I just wanna [00:53:15] circle back as we close out to say the film's called Seen.
[00:53:19] Prof. Selena Bartlett: My book's called Being Seen How to Master Parenting in the Digital Age because this screen piece is huge. But why did my sister get, uh, [00:53:30] schizophrenia and then take her life in 2006 when I didn't know any of this information? Mm-hmm. And why am I sitting with you in 2025 doing this lovely podcast with Renee?
[00:53:40] Prof. Selena Bartlett: What's the difference? And many people say that to me 'cause we're all from the same family. They say, well, [00:53:45] they have, you have the same parents, you have the same home. How can that be?
[00:53:48] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:53:48] Prof. Selena Bartlett: But this brings us back to the beginning about genetics. There's the genetic susceptibility that we each have, but then there's the environment.
[00:53:57] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So when I grew up between noughtt and [00:54:00] two and a half, I was nursed by my grandmother at the Grandview Hotel in Cleveland. Mm-hmm. And I was the eldest born. And my mum and dad were just starting out very young and trying to get their life together. But they gave me a huge amount of attention. Mm-hmm. In some sense 'cause I was the first born.
[00:54:14] Prof. Selena Bartlett: [00:54:15] But my grandmother who owned that hotel, rocked me to sleep. And she called me, seen, it's my nickname. And um, and so that followed me my whole life. And, uh, she loved me like that. And she called me [00:54:30] seen, uh, her whole life. And no one knows that. Very few people would know that about me, and that's why I called my book being seen because my sister Francesca, who I love, uh, I run past her house every day.
[00:54:43] Prof. Selena Bartlett: She didn't get that [00:54:45] because it wasn't un intentional, like no parents intend to do this. But they moved to a country town away from this extended network and started a business. And mum, next minute she had a, another child on her way. So my sister ended up being [00:55:00] sandwiched between an eldest and the first boy born, and it's not intentional, so I wanna put that out there.
[00:55:06] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Um, but it led to her becoming the clumsy one. So it's a roll on effect that we don't touch on a lot. [00:55:15] It's touched on the film, but not like this, not in a direct way, because we always look at and think about trauma or early life as something big. Mm-hmm. But it's also something not. That didn't happen. And we never look at that as something that impacts the way the [00:55:30] brain develops.
[00:55:30] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:55:31] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And that's what I learned in my 20 year plus journey in 2013, that I didn't know when my sister took her life in 2006.
[00:55:40] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[00:55:40] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Um, but I now know, and that's why I do all these podcasts and do a lot of education [00:55:45] and to know that we can change that, can't we, Renee? Yeah. Through this knowledge, through this education, that's where science meets spirituality or science meets the opposite of science or medicine, where there's a middle way that we're creating for people [00:56:00] to see that we're holistic human beings, that we can't just label something and hope for a better outcome. That if we just apply medicine only to that situation, or if we only apply spirituality to that situation, then that everything will be solved.
[00:56:13] Prof. Selena Bartlett: We know that's not true. [00:56:15] Yeah. Everyone's coming at this because of the way the brain is millions and billions of circuits that's evolved over billions of years, that we can't come up with a simple solution here. We have to come together as a community of light and love [00:56:30] and support. Mm-hmm. And there's an easier way to help people get access to this love.
[00:56:36] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yeah. I would call it, and I think that's why you and I met, and podcasts a beautiful way of spreading that 'cause as someone [00:56:45] listens, they can access this information for free. Yeah. People don't like to hear that, but that's true that education and knowledge raises all boats.
[00:56:55] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. And you know, the beginning of our podcast, we. [00:57:00] The tagline is knowledge is power. So I'm a huge believer in that and I just wanted to thank you for sharing that with us, Selena. That's actually, you know, I, I always find, I always find there's a catalyst, you know, there's some personal [00:57:15] experience that when I, I see scientists who stay in research for so long, there's typically like a personal story behind it because,
[00:57:23] Prof. Selena Bartlett: well see, I, I only went in not to become a Professor, but to understand why people were being treated like they were.
[00:57:29] Prof. Selena Bartlett: [00:57:30] Yeah, yeah. Didn't make sense, didn't add up, and now I understand it. Yeah. And it's, that's why I keep saying it's societal, it's cultural, it's community. It's not on one personal family. Mm-hmm. It's a very lonely journey as a family when this happens and people dunno what to do, they don't like to talk about it swept under the [00:57:45] carpet and all of these things, and there's no support really, when we need to change the conversation, which they have in our ancient cultures forever.
[00:57:52] Prof. Selena Bartlett: My sister would've been the medicine person in the ancient cultures and treated with enormous respect. Mm-hmm. Um, but in our culture, she [00:58:00] is locked up and thrown away basically. And that's pace ba basically why she ended up, um, passing away at 36 because she ended up in that system of more and more medicine in and out of hospital.
[00:58:13] Prof. Selena Bartlett: She had her own place to live in West [00:58:15] End, uh, which is great. Which kept her alive for another 10 years probably. And we are lucky we could help her with those resources. But I saw what it did. Mm-hmm. And, and she's, my family's not alone. Right. This is happening all around me, wherever I Yeah. [00:58:30] But we're not allowed to talk about it.
[00:58:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah.
[00:58:32] Prof. Selena Bartlett: When there are these simple changes Yeah. That we can pick. So that was my sister's story, and that was before there were any screens.
[00:58:40] Dr Renee White: Well, thanks for sharing that. We're, if you're happy to, we have a set of rapid [00:58:45] fire questions that we all ask all of our guests at the end. Oh, great. It's, it's only three questions.
[00:58:51] Dr Renee White: What is your top tip for mothers?
[00:58:54] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Love and attention being seen. Uh, so the top tip is, but first of all, you [00:59:00] have to see yourself and recognise that even if, the hardest tip I would say is Michael Meaney's research, which shows that if you were never hugged, then you dunno how to hug your pups, which was me and I had to reteach [00:59:15] myself love at, when my daughter's 14 and my son was 17.
[00:59:18] Prof. Selena Bartlett: I, when I learned about this huge research of Michael Meaney's. Mm-hmm. So just because you didn't have it happen to you doesn't mean you can't do it. Just, but the first [00:59:30] step is recognizing that.
[00:59:32] Dr Renee White: Did you have a go-to resource or would, what would be your go-to resource for, you know, mums ? And it can be, it can be a workshop, it can be a book, it can be a [00:59:45] poem, it could be a quote, it could be anything.
[00:59:47] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Um, my go-to, I have many resources, so I have a podcast that I create for people to listen to. My mum passed last October, so I did a whole deck of cards, which I think [01:00:00] this is probably the best resource for Beautiful mothers. Yeah. They're doing the best. It's called Women Rise, and my mum used to text me quotes when I was going through a hard time.
[01:00:11] Dr Renee White: Oh.
[01:00:11] Prof. Selena Bartlett: She text me things like, and, and a lot of women are enjoying getting [01:00:15] these. She'd text me things like, there's nothing more powerful or forceful than women determined to rise. Because in her generation they couldn't do very much remember. Yeah. And then she'd text me things like, if you're going through, hell keep going.
[01:00:29] Prof. Selena Bartlett: [01:00:30] And I, I went through a divorce and I've been through a lot of stuff and yeah. All sorts of things like that. So I put this card deck together and I pull one of these cards and I give them out to everybody. I see.
[01:00:40] Dr Renee White: That's beautiful.
[01:00:41] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Um, on behalf of my mother, because she was a very powerful [01:00:45] woman. Yeah. As you all are listening, so that resource and, and just know you're doing your best and the fact you're listening to this podcast or you're trying your best.
[01:00:54] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[01:00:55] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And just reach out. The biggest thing is support. You need help. Mm-hmm. This is not [01:01:00] easy. You cannot do this on your own. Life is a team sport and you need help. And I, and I said that in the film, if there's one thing I could go back and change is I'd recognise I have to ask for help.
[01:01:10] Dr Renee White: I was just on a podcast earlier, and, and the, the tables were turned [01:01:15] because I was the one actually being interviewed that time.
[01:01:17] Dr Renee White: And I got asked, you know, a question around, you know, building that village and things like that. And I was, I was the same. I was that classic a type personality, thought I could do it all, all by [01:01:30] myself 'cause that's what I'd always been rewarded for. Right?
[01:01:32] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Oh yes, me too.
[01:01:33] Dr Renee White: And then I, then I like, you know, that, that classic like, oh, I can't actually do this for myself and this is not actually fun at all.
[01:01:41] Dr Renee White: And now, you know, we're in the midst of school [01:01:45] holidays here in Hobart. I don't know how I would survive without co-parenting. I set up a calendar, I'm like, right, who's doing what? Grandparents are involved. My mum's flying over from [01:02:00] Melbourne. Like, I'm taking,
[01:02:01] Prof. Selena Bartlett: but they want to be involved too.
[01:02:03] Dr Renee White: Exactly. That's the thing. So many people wanna help and you just like, you just have to know how, how do that.
[01:02:08] Prof. Selena Bartlett: But also renee, the grandparent link here is critical. Yeah. Because of the [01:02:15] wisdom and experience that young people are rejecting. But need,
[01:02:19] Dr Renee White: we've got one last question that we always ask our guests. It's a bit of a left field one, and we borrow it from Brene Brown.
[01:02:25] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Yes.
[01:02:26] Dr Renee White: What do you keep on your bedside table?
[01:02:30] Prof. Selena Bartlett: I have, oh, this is gonna be a bit out there, but I have, I have my sister, I have three statues, one's my mum, one's my sister, and one's my other sister, and one's my daughter. So [01:02:45] they're those beautiful angel like statues.
[01:02:47] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[01:02:48] Prof. Selena Bartlett: I also have a small vial of my mum's ashes right now as I'm working out where I'm, I've, I've given her, we did a little thing on the Gold Coast where she lived for a while, but I've kept [01:03:00] some, so I have, I think about my sister all the time, but now I also have my mum and uh, also my daughter is doing kind of brain sciencey research this year as well. Okay. Just, she [01:03:15] didn't want to, she was going in to do an honors degree in cardiovascular research, but they said to her, we need, she's doing preterm. Oh, this will be relevant to you. Yeah. Just preterm birth. Right. Just see if they can improve outcomes for [01:03:30] babies that are born preterm.
[01:03:31] Dr Renee White: Wow.
[01:03:32] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Working at the Royal Brisbane Hospital in the ni, near the nicu. Yeah. They're doing piglet, obviously models. Yeah. They said to her, we need you to do the brain project.
[01:03:42] Dr Renee White: Oh, [01:03:45] we, we heard that. We heard that there's a good gene pool.
[01:03:48] Prof. Selena Bartlett: No, they didn't know about me.
[01:03:49] Dr Renee White: Oh, they didn't know.
[01:03:50] Prof. Selena Bartlett: No, she, they had no idea This was all on her own.
[01:03:53] Prof. Selena Bartlett: She picked that project. Yeah, I know. But now that she's there, there are people saying to her [01:04:00] like, ah. I've seen your baby photos.
[01:04:03] Dr Renee White: Ah,
[01:04:04] Prof. Selena Bartlett: it's where I did my PhD actually over there too. Anyway, but it's just funny how, how we pass things further on and so what I, what I'd love to tell [01:04:15] everybody is that reason I do that is because I just wanna remind myself that there's a lot going on that we don't know.
[01:04:22] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[01:04:22] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And as, as human beings and in this reality, we'd like to think we know everything. When, if you a [01:04:30] scientist, and this is the funny thing about science, you can get in a tunnel of, you think you know everything.
[01:04:36] Dr Renee White: Yes. Yes.
[01:04:37] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And that's with me. For 20 years, I really thought I just had to pull the brain apart, develop drugs.
[01:04:42] Prof. Selena Bartlett: I had huge funding. Working with all the drug [01:04:45] companies was really successful in the US Right. In terms of being on Good Morning America for my discoveries. Mm-hmm. But soon as I moved into this other space of actually recognizing what it is that we need to do's, just no funding, hardly. Which is so interesting to me.
[01:04:59] Prof. Selena Bartlett: [01:05:00] So I just wanna say that we've just gotta keep reminding ourselves that we have lots of support and love is the only thing that matters.
[01:05:09] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[01:05:09] Prof. Selena Bartlett: So if I can say one thing to your listeners that are having babies or about to have babies, is the [01:05:15] only thing that actually matters, and I say this in the film, is scrap the idea.
[01:05:21] Prof. Selena Bartlett: It's about, your legacy is about giving back your house and your cars and all of that to your children. Because as we just [01:05:30] talked about at the beginning, it's all about love and attention. And that that time that you give is lifelong mental wellness.
[01:05:39] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.
[01:05:39] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And it stays in their brain for three generations that they pass on to the next generations.
[01:05:44] Prof. Selena Bartlett: [01:05:45] So you are actually living in those next generations through how you do that.
[01:05:53] Dr Renee White: Oh, Selena, thank you so much for, um, coming on the podcast. I have thoroughly enjoyed the chat and I [01:06:00] knew, as I said, we're gonna run out of topic, uh, a time before topics, but this is gonna be a really, I think, thought provoking episode for people to listen to.
[01:06:10] Dr Renee White: If anyone wanted to, um, get hold of those beautiful cards or [01:06:15] your book, I have. Where can we find those?
[01:06:16] Prof. Selena Bartlett: You can find them on my website at. Selena Bartlettt.com. But also I have a website called women rise.com au. Beautiful. And I'm creating a whole movement around circles of [01:06:30] bringing, as we said, bringing community of people together to have these lovely conversations together and recognise we're in this together.
[01:06:37] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. And, uh, this is in honor of my mum, obviously, but um, it's also my work in there too.
[01:06:43] Dr Renee White: Yeah, of course, of [01:06:45] course.
[01:06:45] Prof. Selena Bartlett: But it's called Women Rise because women are amazing without us, I dunno what would happen in many ways. Yeah. And my mum created the opportunity to give me education. And uh, also she was a nurse and studied really hard, but then she wasn't allowed to [01:07:00] really pursue a career like I was.
[01:07:02] Prof. Selena Bartlett: Mm-hmm. But even though it was hard for me, I wasn't allowed, I had to kind of pretend I wasn't a woman in a way, but through raising my children. But now my children get to have the next phase. Yeah. And [01:07:15] it all started with these amazing people. Mm-hmm. And sometimes we always look at the bad side of childhood, but there's also this other beautiful side that we give our children, you know, these opportunities and yeah.
[01:07:28] Prof. Selena Bartlett: And you look at all the wonderful [01:07:30] things our parents did as well. Yeah. So sometimes it can be so easy just to look at the negative things and Yeah. They stick harder than the,
[01:07:37] Dr Renee White: yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Well thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. I really do appreciate it.
[01:07:44] Prof. Selena Bartlett: You are welcome. [01:07:45] It was so lovely to meet you. I look forward to
[01:07:46] Dr Renee White: Lovely to meet you,
[01:07:46] Prof. Selena Bartlett: you and Tassie sometime, maybe.
[01:07:48] Dr Renee White: Yes, please get in touch if you ever head down to Tassie. Um, it's getting cold, so bring you winter woollies.
[01:07:53] Prof. Selena Bartlett: No, you see it in your jumper.
[01:07:55] Dr Renee White: Yeah, look at me. I know, I know. I'm very [01:08:00] jealous. Um, alright everyone, until next time, we'll see you.
[01:08:05] Dr Renee White: If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to [01:08:15] listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well. You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. [01:08:30] Head to our website, I fill your cup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings, where every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself, ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and [01:08:45] empowered, so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence.
[01:08:49] Dr Renee White: Until next time, bye.