1
00:00:02,324 --> 00:00:06,044
Eddie: Welcome to Episode
8 of the WebJoy podcast.

2
00:00:06,261 --> 00:00:10,821
I'm your host Eddie in this podcast,
we interview guests about their origin

3
00:00:10,821 --> 00:00:15,951
story and what makes them excited and
joyful to be part of the tech community.

4
00:00:16,521 --> 00:00:18,171
I hope you enjoy today's episode.

5
00:00:18,501 --> 00:00:21,311
"Like a Big Experiment" with Grace Ling.

6
00:00:21,799 --> 00:00:22,459
Hi Grace.

7
00:00:22,459 --> 00:00:23,239
Thanks for joining us.

8
00:00:24,559 --> 00:00:24,919
Grace: Hi, Eddie.

9
00:00:24,919 --> 00:00:26,713
Thanks so much for
bringing me on I'm honored

10
00:00:28,313 --> 00:00:30,503
Eddie: We're honored
you decided to join us.

11
00:00:30,603 --> 00:00:34,293
If you don't mind, just give a brief
introduction about yourself, to the

12
00:00:34,293 --> 00:00:39,033
community who you are, what you do, where
you work, just some general details.

13
00:00:40,428 --> 00:00:41,088
Grace: Yeah, for sure.

14
00:00:41,178 --> 00:00:45,768
My name is Grace and full time, I'm a
product designer at Electronic Arts and

15
00:00:46,338 --> 00:00:50,938
for fun, I run an almost 40,000 member
community called Design Buddies, which I

16
00:00:50,938 --> 00:00:53,553
started during the pandemic as a student.

17
00:00:53,553 --> 00:00:56,878
And I like to draw
swim, run, hike, travel.

18
00:00:57,058 --> 00:00:59,998
I do a lot of things for fun and
experimenting with different things.

19
00:01:01,513 --> 00:01:02,143
Eddie: Awesome.

20
00:01:02,353 --> 00:01:03,193
That sounds great.

21
00:01:03,293 --> 00:01:04,643
Sounds like you stay pretty busy.

22
00:01:06,818 --> 00:01:07,148
Grace: Yeah.

23
00:01:07,148 --> 00:01:09,613
I like doing a lot of random
things all at the same time.

24
00:01:09,618 --> 00:01:11,873
I think that's what personally
I think makes it fun.

25
00:01:11,918 --> 00:01:12,008
Oh, yeah.

26
00:01:13,883 --> 00:01:14,453
Eddie: That's great.

27
00:01:14,453 --> 00:01:19,123
Yeah, it kind of gives you a fuller
experience rather than just focusing in

28
00:01:19,123 --> 00:01:22,303
on one thing where you can get locked into

29
00:01:24,218 --> 00:01:26,253
Grace: I tend to do all
of it at the same time.

30
00:01:26,253 --> 00:01:29,138
Cuz I tend to get bored if
I focused on just one thing.

31
00:01:31,023 --> 00:01:32,763
Eddie: I can definitely
connect with that personally.

32
00:01:33,193 --> 00:01:35,323
I oftentimes try to pick up
too many things at the same

33
00:01:35,328 --> 00:01:37,613
time which sometimes backfires

34
00:01:37,663 --> 00:01:39,253
Grace: Oh, yeah, I can
definitely relate as well.

35
00:01:39,258 --> 00:01:41,953
It's all like designing and
seeing what your threshold

36
00:01:41,953 --> 00:01:43,813
is and iterating from there.

37
00:01:45,178 --> 00:01:45,658
Eddie: Nice.

38
00:01:45,658 --> 00:01:46,468
I love that.

39
00:01:47,248 --> 00:01:52,013
So how did you get into tech what's
the short version of your story?

40
00:01:53,493 --> 00:01:55,083
Grace: I had a lot of career pivots.

41
00:01:55,113 --> 00:01:57,753
It all started with just like
me wanting to experiment with

42
00:01:57,753 --> 00:01:58,953
a lot of the different things.

43
00:01:59,283 --> 00:01:59,763
Growing up.

44
00:01:59,823 --> 00:02:02,913
I was born and raised in Silicon
valley, so all surrounded by tech,

45
00:02:03,393 --> 00:02:06,513
and I didn't want to go into tech.

46
00:02:06,513 --> 00:02:07,023
Actually.

47
00:02:07,023 --> 00:02:10,248
I wanted to become an anime
artist, and a professional runner.

48
00:02:10,588 --> 00:02:13,378
I play a lot of games, and running
were a huge part of my life.

49
00:02:13,798 --> 00:02:16,588
I ran cross country and track
very competitively throughout

50
00:02:16,588 --> 00:02:17,458
high school and college.

51
00:02:17,918 --> 00:02:21,848
Went to Nationals a couple of times, and
that inspired me to study bioengineering

52
00:02:21,848 --> 00:02:26,678
in college because I wanted to learn
how to biohack myself to run faster.

53
00:02:26,738 --> 00:02:30,218
And I thought bioengineering would
help me unlock that knowledge.

54
00:02:30,548 --> 00:02:31,628
so that's like literally my goal.

55
00:02:32,428 --> 00:02:35,998
And I want to on the side become
anime artist and continue, and

56
00:02:35,998 --> 00:02:37,688
it's try to run professionally.

57
00:02:38,978 --> 00:02:41,168
After a few internships in bioengineering.

58
00:02:41,318 --> 00:02:44,408
My favorite part of that I worked with
cell culture was taking photos of the

59
00:02:44,408 --> 00:02:46,048
cells, or you might call them "Cellfies".

60
00:02:46,868 --> 00:02:47,438
Cells.

61
00:02:47,768 --> 00:02:52,118
Um,  and I, I did enjoy me a lot work.

62
00:02:52,238 --> 00:02:53,308
I just liked taking them "Cellfies".

63
00:02:53,858 --> 00:02:58,238
Um,  of my cells, and I felt like
it wasn't the path I wanted to be,

64
00:02:58,243 --> 00:02:59,678
cuz it wasn't giving me energy.

65
00:02:59,678 --> 00:03:03,598
I've always loved video games, so I
decided to pivot into Computer Science.

66
00:03:03,618 --> 00:03:06,798
My college major was bioengineering
and computer science and engineering.

67
00:03:06,798 --> 00:03:10,278
And that's what inspired me to study
because I just wanted to make games.

68
00:03:10,558 --> 00:03:13,528
So I studied computer science,
did a few internships in game dev.

69
00:03:13,808 --> 00:03:15,398
And that's how I discovered level design.

70
00:03:16,143 --> 00:03:19,143
Initially I wanted to become like
a virtual reality level designer.

71
00:03:19,393 --> 00:03:21,403
but I feel like that
was such a specific job.

72
00:03:21,403 --> 00:03:24,983
And I was graduating from  undergrad, and
couldn't find that many entry level jobs.

73
00:03:24,983 --> 00:03:29,183
So I decided to look at
different job titles, like top

74
00:03:29,183 --> 00:03:30,233
tech companies are hiring for.

75
00:03:30,233 --> 00:03:31,813
And I saw a lot of UX project designs.

76
00:03:31,813 --> 00:03:32,713
I was like, oh, what's that?

77
00:03:33,143 --> 00:03:35,433
And I did a bunch of Googling
driven a bunch of communi.

78
00:03:35,873 --> 00:03:38,423
And did a few projects,
designing websites, apps.

79
00:03:38,423 --> 00:03:39,743
I was like, oh, this is really fun.

80
00:03:39,963 --> 00:03:42,943
And I feel like the skills I learned
really translated across like level

81
00:03:43,023 --> 00:03:45,003
design user experience and all of that.

82
00:03:45,003 --> 00:03:47,883
And so that's actually how
I got to UX product design.

83
00:03:47,983 --> 00:03:51,793
So I graduated from undergrad in
June of 2019, and then started a

84
00:03:51,793 --> 00:03:55,363
Master's actually after, because I
had no idea what I wanted do my life.

85
00:03:55,363 --> 00:03:59,683
So I literally bought myself more time
to figure it out through my Masters

86
00:03:59,683 --> 00:04:01,183
in Computer Science Engineering.

87
00:04:01,793 --> 00:04:03,053
I was like, I kinda wanna do everything.

88
00:04:03,058 --> 00:04:04,283
So I'll just take it slowly.

89
00:04:04,948 --> 00:04:07,498
And I wanted to have more
time to build my portfolio.

90
00:04:07,948 --> 00:04:11,138
And so around that time I was stuck
between do I wanna do game dev

91
00:04:11,138 --> 00:04:14,833
development or UX design or level
design game design had no idea.

92
00:04:14,833 --> 00:04:18,008
So I started learning more and
more about product UX design.

93
00:04:18,008 --> 00:04:19,708
I found it was pretty enjoyable.

94
00:04:19,708 --> 00:04:22,163
I really love solving problems
and learning about the business

95
00:04:22,168 --> 00:04:26,043
side and the user side, and
working with product, engineering,

96
00:04:26,103 --> 00:04:28,178
research and all those nice people.

97
00:04:28,458 --> 00:04:29,868
So I decided to pivot into that.

98
00:04:29,968 --> 00:04:33,028
My transition to design was actually
pretty rough because it was during

99
00:04:33,028 --> 00:04:37,038
COVID and I was applying to a bunch
of internships and a lot were closing

100
00:04:37,038 --> 00:04:38,538
the internship programs and stuff.

101
00:04:38,788 --> 00:04:43,348
So I started networking on LinkedIn and I
reached out to my current director at EA

102
00:04:43,408 --> 00:04:49,348
and that's how I got an internship and I
got a full-time offer in December of 2020.

103
00:04:49,618 --> 00:04:53,178
And it's been great while continuing
my master's studies part-time and

104
00:04:53,178 --> 00:04:57,488
graduating just last week and being
promoted two weeks ago as well.

105
00:04:57,488 --> 00:04:58,328
So it's been fun.

106
00:04:58,333 --> 00:05:02,023
it's been a journey of try new
things, seeing what gives me energy,

107
00:05:02,023 --> 00:05:05,243
seeing what I'm good at and seeking
the opportunities are available.

108
00:05:05,243 --> 00:05:09,133
Eddie: So much at one time,  getting
promoted in your current position and

109
00:05:09,133 --> 00:05:11,303
graduating and all of that at one time.

110
00:05:11,363 --> 00:05:12,503
That's super exciting.

111
00:05:13,371 --> 00:05:13,851
Grace: Thank you

112
00:05:14,426 --> 00:05:18,126
Eddie: You were tossing around a couple
things  like game development, product

113
00:05:18,126 --> 00:05:23,106
design, what pulled you in the direction
of design and has you the most excited and

114
00:05:23,106 --> 00:05:24,486
interested in product design right now?

115
00:05:25,183 --> 00:05:25,483
Grace: Yeah.

116
00:05:25,483 --> 00:05:28,753
I feel like it's like everything at
once because I'm learning a lot about

117
00:05:28,753 --> 00:05:32,563
the business side, the product side,
the technical side, the user experience

118
00:05:32,563 --> 00:05:34,248
side, what I wanna do in my life.

119
00:05:34,248 --> 00:05:35,618
And thanks to EA.

120
00:05:35,618 --> 00:05:38,158
I gotta work on a lot of really
interesting marketing and

121
00:05:38,158 --> 00:05:40,888
player experience products that
impact millions of players.

122
00:05:40,888 --> 00:05:42,508
So I thought it was really fun.

123
00:05:42,508 --> 00:05:46,408
Seeing what product I could build and
the day to day life of working with

124
00:05:46,408 --> 00:05:49,108
so many different types of people
and learning all these skills and

125
00:05:49,288 --> 00:05:50,608
trying to build a product together.

126
00:05:50,608 --> 00:05:51,663
I thought it's fun.

127
00:05:51,663 --> 00:05:53,683
Just keep building on
stuff and solving problems.

128
00:05:54,595 --> 00:05:55,495
Eddie: That's really awesome.

129
00:05:55,945 --> 00:05:59,139
You mentioned all these
different things that you do.

130
00:05:59,139 --> 00:06:02,479
And you know juggling them and
figuring out how many things you can

131
00:06:02,479 --> 00:06:04,609
do without overwhelming yourself.

132
00:06:04,919 --> 00:06:10,042
That's what we wanted to talk about today
and kind of the topic of joy is right.

133
00:06:10,057 --> 00:06:13,172
You mentioned, you wanted to talk
about the topic of designing your life.

134
00:06:13,232 --> 00:06:16,772
Can you talk to me about
what does that mean to you?

135
00:06:17,672 --> 00:06:21,192
What have you thought about
as you've tried to design your

136
00:06:21,192 --> 00:06:23,172
life and fit things together?

137
00:06:24,677 --> 00:06:28,997
Grace: Yeah, I think of designing
my life as like a big experiment of

138
00:06:28,997 --> 00:06:32,897
seeing what brings me joy and what
I like to do and what I'm good at.

139
00:06:33,137 --> 00:06:36,357
And just trying a lot of things out
and being with testing stuff, because

140
00:06:36,797 --> 00:06:40,987
as a designer, or as myself I used
to feel like I need to be perfect.

141
00:06:40,992 --> 00:06:44,357
I need to wait for  the perfect
time, to ask for permission, to make

142
00:06:44,357 --> 00:06:45,737
sure everything's pixel perfect.

143
00:06:45,737 --> 00:06:49,212
But then that really held me back
from actually executing things.

144
00:06:49,272 --> 00:06:54,182
And so I think of myself as having
discovery and just testing things

145
00:06:54,182 --> 00:06:57,602
out and seeing what I like the
most and what I'm good at to see

146
00:06:57,602 --> 00:06:58,922
what I can make the most impact.

147
00:06:58,922 --> 00:07:01,982
And going from there and
having no finish line.

148
00:07:01,982 --> 00:07:05,412
So it's also having an infinite
mindset of just trying things out

149
00:07:05,502 --> 00:07:09,317
and seeing what works or what doesn't
work, and iterating from there.

150
00:07:09,347 --> 00:07:12,377
Keep improving instead of worrying
about being perfect on the first try.

151
00:07:12,377 --> 00:07:15,806
So I seeing designing my life as
like building  or like designing

152
00:07:15,811 --> 00:07:19,796
a product and collecting data
and using that to keep improving.

153
00:07:20,376 --> 00:07:20,916
Eddie: Awesome.

154
00:07:21,096 --> 00:07:22,966
That sounds very  exciting.

155
00:07:22,996 --> 00:07:25,031
You're passionate about so
many different things, right?

156
00:07:25,036 --> 00:07:30,641
I mean, you were interested in biohacking,
you've gotten into programming,

157
00:07:30,731 --> 00:07:33,501
design work, artwork and anime.

158
00:07:33,501 --> 00:07:36,351
I feel like a lot of these things.

159
00:07:37,198 --> 00:07:40,948
if someone kind of fits the mold
of an artist, they may not think

160
00:07:40,948 --> 00:07:44,008
about going into programming, or
if you're programming, you may

161
00:07:44,008 --> 00:07:45,598
not think about going into design.

162
00:07:46,168 --> 00:07:50,758
What was it that kind of helped
you discover which things you were

163
00:07:50,758 --> 00:07:55,078
passionate about, even though they were
so different than the other things that

164
00:07:55,078 --> 00:07:57,298
you were engaged in and interested in.

165
00:07:58,521 --> 00:07:58,851
Grace: Yeah.

166
00:07:58,856 --> 00:08:00,981
That's actually something that
held me back for a while, because

167
00:08:00,981 --> 00:08:02,691
I felt like I can only be one.

168
00:08:02,781 --> 00:08:04,701
I can either be  art or engineer.

169
00:08:04,731 --> 00:08:08,241
I can't be both, but I feel like
designing your life also comes

170
00:08:08,241 --> 00:08:09,431
with discovering who you are.

171
00:08:09,966 --> 00:08:14,296
And not molding yourself to other
stereotypes you might see out there and

172
00:08:14,656 --> 00:08:18,706
being not afraid to break stereotypes so
you can pursue what gives you personally

173
00:08:18,706 --> 00:08:22,216
the most joy without worrying about
what other people think of you or how

174
00:08:22,216 --> 00:08:25,876
other people might fit you into a box
and just going from there and designing

175
00:08:25,881 --> 00:08:30,206
your own journey without following any
like stereotypical path or path that was

176
00:08:30,206 --> 00:08:31,736
taught to you when you're really young.

177
00:08:32,183 --> 00:08:36,803
Eddie: I think a lot of us, all of us
really can easily feel like we need to

178
00:08:36,803 --> 00:08:39,863
fit into this box that people give us.

179
00:08:39,963 --> 00:08:43,903
I know I've struggled with that
as I'm a developer, but I don't

180
00:08:43,903 --> 00:08:46,033
always fit the mold of developer.

181
00:08:46,133 --> 00:08:50,753
In many jobs I've ended up kind of being
a bridge between design and development,

182
00:08:51,053 --> 00:08:54,923
because like, I can't really design
from scratch, but I understand the

183
00:08:54,923 --> 00:08:59,758
thinking of  a product designer, even
though I'm a developer, which kind of

184
00:08:59,758 --> 00:09:02,728
puts me at odds with myself at time.

185
00:09:02,728 --> 00:09:05,398
And I'm sure you have struggled
with that as well, being in product

186
00:09:05,398 --> 00:09:07,471
design and computer science.

187
00:09:07,471 --> 00:09:12,921
So it's interesting to struggle with
that and figure out  who we are, despite

188
00:09:12,921 --> 00:09:14,811
the boxes that people want to put us in.

189
00:09:15,333 --> 00:09:16,113
Grace: Yeah, I agree.

190
00:09:16,118 --> 00:09:19,633
I feel like that held me back for
a long time from pursuing  anything

191
00:09:19,633 --> 00:09:22,453
creative, because I felt like
I'm computer science student.

192
00:09:22,453 --> 00:09:23,413
I should be technical.

193
00:09:23,413 --> 00:09:26,468
I shouldn't be interested in these
things, but at end of the day.

194
00:09:26,528 --> 00:09:28,828
There's not really any
instruction manual to life.

195
00:09:28,828 --> 00:09:29,903
It's however you make it.

196
00:09:30,323 --> 00:09:34,253
Eddie: When you start to get into
something new . And you're breaking

197
00:09:34,253 --> 00:09:37,283
out of your box and saying, Hey, I'm
interested in this thing over here.

198
00:09:37,523 --> 00:09:38,813
I'm gonna try that out.

199
00:09:38,813 --> 00:09:40,523
How do you get started?

200
00:09:40,523 --> 00:09:44,828
Because I know that can be intimidating to
enter an area that you're not necessarily

201
00:09:44,828 --> 00:09:46,478
comfortable or have experience in.

202
00:09:47,090 --> 00:09:50,030
Grace: Yeah, that's actually a really
common struggle that I've dealt with

203
00:09:50,030 --> 00:09:52,310
because I pivoted careers so many times.

204
00:09:52,310 --> 00:09:56,630
So it's always a struggle, feeling like a
beginner, but also knowing that you're in

205
00:09:56,630 --> 00:10:00,960
this for the long run, like that feeling
of being a beginner is only temporary.

206
00:10:01,010 --> 00:10:02,660
You'll only have to experience it once.

207
00:10:03,190 --> 00:10:06,400
And it's always fun to learn because
I feel like when I'm learning,

208
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:07,995
I'm growing and I'm improving.

209
00:10:07,995 --> 00:10:10,575
And so that feeling that
excitement of learning new

210
00:10:10,575 --> 00:10:12,065
things is what keeps me going.

211
00:10:12,869 --> 00:10:13,529
Eddie: That's awesome.

212
00:10:13,539 --> 00:10:17,049
Rather than learning, being something
that's intimidating and something that you

213
00:10:17,049 --> 00:10:22,478
have to do instead, that's the activity
of fun that you can embrace and you can

214
00:10:22,478 --> 00:10:25,808
just enjoy that as an action in itself.

215
00:10:26,223 --> 00:10:26,403
Grace: Yeah.

216
00:10:26,403 --> 00:10:28,413
It's like an opportunity
to improve yourself.

217
00:10:28,443 --> 00:10:31,873
Cuz I  also struggled a lot with
imposter syndrome, especially growing up.

218
00:10:32,003 --> 00:10:34,973
In high school, people would
ask me like yo, what's your GPA

219
00:10:35,183 --> 00:10:36,263
and what are your test scores?

220
00:10:36,263 --> 00:10:39,563
So that was a kind of environment
that I was most used to growing up.

221
00:10:39,563 --> 00:10:42,083
And so it's always that
comparing with others.

222
00:10:42,463 --> 00:10:45,853
Especially as a runner, people compare
you in your times with other people.

223
00:10:45,853 --> 00:10:49,993
So that was always in my head, but
letting go of comparing myself to

224
00:10:49,993 --> 00:10:53,503
others, instead of seeing others as
competition, I see them as inspiration

225
00:10:53,508 --> 00:10:57,013
or how can we work together instead of
trying to one up each other and stuff

226
00:10:57,343 --> 00:10:59,843
Eddie: I love the idea of
switching that Because imposter

227
00:10:59,843 --> 00:11:01,613
syndrome, it affects all of us.

228
00:11:01,613 --> 00:11:05,273
And it really does come down to the
fact that if you're not looking at any

229
00:11:05,363 --> 00:11:09,803
other people, if you're not comparing
yourselves against others, you'll

230
00:11:09,803 --> 00:11:11,843
never truly feel like an imposter.

231
00:11:11,967 --> 00:11:15,383
I love the other fact here you're
talking about trying new things and

232
00:11:15,383 --> 00:11:17,543
learning and feeling imposter syndrome.

233
00:11:17,543 --> 00:11:21,413
And it's funny because for me, I
feel like those two really overlap.

234
00:11:21,873 --> 00:11:26,528
Do you feel imposter syndrome more
when you're in a new territory

235
00:11:26,528 --> 00:11:30,308
when you're exploring something
new than when you're in something

236
00:11:30,308 --> 00:11:31,748
that you've been in for a while?

237
00:11:32,626 --> 00:11:35,176
Grace: In the recent few months , I
don't feel that much imposter

238
00:11:35,496 --> 00:11:39,096
syndrome or I don't feel any and
the reason is I just stopped caring

239
00:11:39,486 --> 00:11:41,556
about things I can't control.

240
00:11:41,896 --> 00:11:44,536
I used to care a lot about what
other people thought of me.

241
00:11:44,836 --> 00:11:49,006
But then I can't control it and
it's not my life goal to please

242
00:11:49,006 --> 00:11:50,356
everyone cuz that's impossible.

243
00:11:50,656 --> 00:11:51,916
So I stopped chasing that.

244
00:11:52,216 --> 00:11:55,066
And then I realized I can just
not care about a lot of things

245
00:11:55,116 --> 00:11:57,090
by simply changing my mindset.

246
00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:00,120
It's not like I just woke up one day and
decided, oh yeah, I don't care anymore.

247
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:01,865
But it's a process of unlearning.

248
00:12:01,865 --> 00:12:04,475
It's like, whenever I feel like an
imposter, I was like, wait, I don't

249
00:12:04,475 --> 00:12:06,665
care about this because there's
something I can do about this.

250
00:12:06,665 --> 00:12:08,550
Might as well  focus
on  what I can control.

251
00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,000
So I guess that's how I overcame imposter
syndrome, like my way, but I feel like

252
00:12:13,090 --> 00:12:14,830
everyone has their own different ways.

253
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:16,172
But that's what worked for me

254
00:12:16,172 --> 00:12:20,880
Eddie: That's really  So as a community,
we love to support each other.

255
00:12:20,897 --> 00:12:25,297
I'd love to hear if there's anything that
the community can do to support you or

256
00:12:25,302 --> 00:12:29,257
anything that you're involved in that
you'd like to share with the community.

257
00:12:30,205 --> 00:12:30,445
Grace: Thank you.

258
00:12:30,450 --> 00:12:31,035
Appreciate it.

259
00:12:31,353 --> 00:12:34,648
Design Buddies is actually a community
I founded on my design journey when

260
00:12:34,648 --> 00:12:36,778
I was feeling lost in my career.

261
00:12:37,378 --> 00:12:40,508
I created this random Discord
server called Design Buddies.

262
00:12:40,508 --> 00:12:44,728
When I was bored in class and two
years later it's grown to almost

263
00:12:44,728 --> 00:12:49,708
40,000 members and our goal is to help
designers level up in their career.

264
00:12:49,708 --> 00:12:53,518
And this means meeting other designers,
connecting with people, finding job

265
00:12:53,518 --> 00:12:57,878
opportunities, accessing resources, to
help with leveling up in your career.

266
00:12:57,878 --> 00:12:59,858
And so it's definitely 100% free.

267
00:13:00,138 --> 00:13:04,188
And I do this just for fun and along
with other friendly team members as well.

268
00:13:04,188 --> 00:13:05,988
So yeah, y'all welcome to join us.

269
00:13:06,157 --> 00:13:08,437
Eddie: First of all, wow, like mind blown.

270
00:13:08,517 --> 00:13:11,427
I have a hard time wrapping
my mind around 40,000.

271
00:13:11,427 --> 00:13:13,505
Like when did you all start this?

272
00:13:13,555 --> 00:13:15,815
Grace: April 10th, 2020 is our birthday.

273
00:13:16,236 --> 00:13:16,716
Eddie: Wow.

274
00:13:16,721 --> 00:13:21,431
How did you all get that much attention
and grow as a community so quickly

275
00:13:21,431 --> 00:13:23,981
in only a little bit over two years?

276
00:13:25,211 --> 00:13:28,301
Grace: yeah, a big part of it is
just us doing it just for fun.

277
00:13:28,621 --> 00:13:34,381
And not really have any like end goal
and also me just not being afraid to like

278
00:13:34,381 --> 00:13:38,611
experiment with things and encouraging
other people to experiment and just keep

279
00:13:38,611 --> 00:13:42,211
launching and keep learning and keep
iterating and not being able to fail.

280
00:13:42,211 --> 00:13:46,051
So it's like how I designed my life
is how I designed the Design Buddies

281
00:13:46,141 --> 00:13:49,891
and then taking opportunities and
evaluating them as they come and

282
00:13:49,896 --> 00:13:51,151
seeing what works, what doesn't.

283
00:13:51,461 --> 00:13:54,371
Before this, I had almost zero
experience with community building

284
00:13:54,621 --> 00:13:56,571
let alone like project management.

285
00:13:56,571 --> 00:14:00,991
I was a student, I was like deep
in class, so I had no experience in

286
00:14:00,991 --> 00:14:05,511
business, any legal stuff, any management
stuff, that's a big part of it as well.

287
00:14:05,511 --> 00:14:08,781
So I didn't let that stop me
from creating a community.

288
00:14:08,786 --> 00:14:11,486
I just took that as an
opportunity, like, oh I can learn.

289
00:14:11,706 --> 00:14:15,006
Might as well, impact other people at the
same time, like win, win for both of us.

290
00:14:15,036 --> 00:14:20,061
So it's kind of My big playground,
I guess, as a life experiment, but

291
00:14:20,061 --> 00:14:24,101
also an opportunity for me to be able
to impact thousands of people and

292
00:14:24,281 --> 00:14:27,326
help them improve in their design
skills and even land a lot of jobs.

293
00:14:27,926 --> 00:14:28,856
Eddie: That is awesome.

294
00:14:29,176 --> 00:14:33,946
What do you all do as a community that
helps people level up their career?

295
00:14:33,946 --> 00:14:36,586
Do you have certain kind
of content available?

296
00:14:36,586 --> 00:14:42,996
Is it about people meeting together and
being mentored or peer conversations?

297
00:14:43,106 --> 00:14:44,066
What do you all do?

298
00:14:44,554 --> 00:14:48,914
Grace: All of that actually we host a lot
of events, have resources, have content.

299
00:14:49,194 --> 00:14:53,049
I've been getting into TikTok and
stuff, and we also have a job board.

300
00:14:53,079 --> 00:14:55,779
We have a network of hiring managers
and companies looking to hire.

301
00:14:56,139 --> 00:14:59,109
And we also have people conversing
with each other, like peers

302
00:14:59,109 --> 00:15:02,199
connecting with peers and also
upcoming mentorship program.

303
00:15:02,784 --> 00:15:05,894
We also partnered with a lot of
design education programs that provide

304
00:15:05,914 --> 00:15:09,094
scholarships that are free for the
community, especially for Design Buddies.

305
00:15:09,094 --> 00:15:10,504
So we're always experimenting with things.

306
00:15:10,504 --> 00:15:12,604
So things might look different
like a few months from now.

307
00:15:12,614 --> 00:15:17,079
Whatever it takes to just be happy
and make people have fun while

308
00:15:17,079 --> 00:15:18,699
leveling up in their design careers.

309
00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:21,559
Also we invest a lot of
time in our branding.

310
00:15:21,619 --> 00:15:25,064
And so we have a nice mascot
called fluffle, which is kind of

311
00:15:25,064 --> 00:15:26,534
like Clippy from Microsoft word.

312
00:15:26,564 --> 00:15:32,124
But it's like your guide to design we
just love personifying things and making

313
00:15:32,124 --> 00:15:34,644
things fun and adding some spice to life.

314
00:15:34,674 --> 00:15:38,544
A big part of me growing up was
I was always really intimidated

315
00:15:38,544 --> 00:15:41,454
about the workplace because I
thought you had to be like super

316
00:15:41,454 --> 00:15:43,554
professional wearing suits and stuff.

317
00:15:43,894 --> 00:15:46,779
For me, I've always liked to
be playful and just to chill.

318
00:15:46,779 --> 00:15:50,349
So I wanna bring that energy to
the design and tech community

319
00:15:50,349 --> 00:15:51,579
as well with Design Buddies.

320
00:15:51,579 --> 00:15:54,849
And that's like our long term, my
long term vision with why I decided

321
00:15:54,849 --> 00:15:58,379
to go with all these bright pastel
colors and buddies and our friending

322
00:15:59,753 --> 00:16:00,668
Eddie: That's awesome.

323
00:16:01,608 --> 00:16:02,148
I love that.

324
00:16:02,198 --> 00:16:04,863
I love when we can have
things personified.

325
00:16:04,893 --> 00:16:08,933
I definitely have always liked MailChimp
having the monkey and everything.

326
00:16:08,933 --> 00:16:14,508
I like when there is a personified
mascot, that's friendly and engaging.

327
00:16:14,513 --> 00:16:16,188
And of course who doesn't love Clippy.

328
00:16:16,338 --> 00:16:18,138
Grace: Yeah, like Wumpus from Discord.

329
00:16:18,138 --> 00:16:20,268
It's like a mascot that represents them.

330
00:16:20,928 --> 00:16:24,598
And Fluffle the definition English
definition is like a group of bunnies.

331
00:16:24,788 --> 00:16:28,578
So it represents like everyone, the
group of Design Buddies were design

332
00:16:28,578 --> 00:16:29,828
bunnies in fluffle . (laughing)

333
00:16:30,131 --> 00:16:31,271
Eddie: That is so awesome.

334
00:16:31,271 --> 00:16:32,021
I love that.

335
00:16:32,342 --> 00:16:36,672
so if anyone is interested in
checking out Design Buddies, we'll

336
00:16:36,672 --> 00:16:38,572
have the link in the show notes.

337
00:16:38,572 --> 00:16:41,647
So feel free to go over there and
click on that at the very least to

338
00:16:41,647 --> 00:16:45,547
understand the exact scale of what
Grace is talking about, because

339
00:16:45,607 --> 00:16:47,437
she makes it all sound so easy.

340
00:16:47,717 --> 00:16:52,342
I looked at  all the photos of the
people involved in actually making this

341
00:16:52,342 --> 00:16:54,112
thing happen and there's ton of people.

342
00:16:54,112 --> 00:16:58,342
So if nothing else go over and look at
that page to understand exactly what

343
00:16:58,342 --> 00:17:00,952
all is happening, it's incredible.

344
00:17:01,032 --> 00:17:04,162
And then yeah, if it interests
you, sign up and get involved.

345
00:17:04,795 --> 00:17:05,635
Grace: Yeah, definitely.

346
00:17:05,635 --> 00:17:08,765
And also thanks to all of our friendly
team members for making all this possible.

347
00:17:08,935 --> 00:17:09,685
Cuz definitely.

348
00:17:09,955 --> 00:17:13,285
I like to also try to give leadership
opportunities to other people as

349
00:17:13,285 --> 00:17:15,205
well, so they can put on your resume.

350
00:17:15,205 --> 00:17:16,315
I can write them a letter rec.

351
00:17:16,505 --> 00:17:18,945
So it's been really fun being able
to give leadership opportunities

352
00:17:18,945 --> 00:17:21,595
to other people while growing
Design Buddies and just helping

353
00:17:21,595 --> 00:17:22,765
everyone have fun at the same time.

354
00:17:22,765 --> 00:17:23,995
So definitely check out our page.

355
00:17:23,995 --> 00:17:27,445
We have a lot of teams and a lot of
friendly people who are also helping us.

356
00:17:27,925 --> 00:17:28,585
Eddie: That's great.

357
00:17:28,645 --> 00:17:32,485
That's one thing that throughout all
the episodes I've been noticing is

358
00:17:32,725 --> 00:17:36,085
there are a lot of really amazing
communities, whether in the developer

359
00:17:36,085 --> 00:17:39,795
space, with FreeCodeCamp to in the
design space with Design Buddies.

360
00:17:39,795 --> 00:17:44,870
So I love that this podcast is a platform
where everyone can find out about all

361
00:17:44,870 --> 00:17:50,510
the really friendly, fun communities
to be a part of because sometimes it's

362
00:17:50,510 --> 00:17:53,875
hard to find them, you know, a lot of
communities can be toxic and so it's nice

363
00:17:53,875 --> 00:17:55,795
to find the good ones to be involved in.

364
00:17:55,926 --> 00:17:58,386
Grace: Actually, one of big reasons
why I started Design Buddies is

365
00:17:58,386 --> 00:17:59,916
when I was starting in design.

366
00:18:00,166 --> 00:18:02,771
I found a lot of design
communities at that time that I was

367
00:18:02,771 --> 00:18:04,531
particularly in not very friendly.

368
00:18:04,531 --> 00:18:08,336
I felt like really intimidated and to
me, they seemed a little bit elitist.

369
00:18:08,336 --> 00:18:12,234
So I 'll just create my own community and
just make some friends and be wholesome.

370
00:18:12,414 --> 00:18:14,604
I feel like, there's people out
there who don't like to be elitist.

371
00:18:14,604 --> 00:18:16,134
And low and behold, it went viral.

372
00:18:16,134 --> 00:18:16,494
So yeah.

373
00:18:16,494 --> 00:18:19,914
So it's also like solving a problem.

374
00:18:19,914 --> 00:18:22,134
It's a very like UX project for me.

375
00:18:22,134 --> 00:18:22,334
(laughing).

376
00:18:23,409 --> 00:18:27,399
Eddie: Yeah, for real cuz it's like, oh,
surely someone else wants a community

377
00:18:27,399 --> 00:18:29,629
that isn't elitist and wants to have fun.

378
00:18:29,629 --> 00:18:32,989
And it turns out yeah, actually
the majority of people want that.

379
00:18:33,209 --> 00:18:37,649
There's just a small minority that think
in their head that they wanna be elitist

380
00:18:37,649 --> 00:18:40,274
and they get drawn to those communities.

381
00:18:40,324 --> 00:18:43,484
Thank you for joining
us and chatting today.

382
00:18:43,484 --> 00:18:44,174
It's been really fun.

383
00:18:44,174 --> 00:18:44,684
Grace.

384
00:18:45,599 --> 00:18:47,219
Grace: Yeah, Thanks for
having me on this was fun.

385
00:18:47,219 --> 00:18:47,879
I appreciate it.

386
00:18:49,630 --> 00:18:52,080
Eddie: Thanks for
joining us for Episode 8.

387
00:18:52,420 --> 00:18:55,470
"Like a Big Experiment" with Grace Ling.

388
00:18:55,870 --> 00:19:01,870
You can find out more about Grace on her
website or on her Twitter @graceleaf_.

389
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,630
You can find the links to everything we
talked about in this episode, as well as

390
00:19:07,630 --> 00:19:09,730
a link to Grace's website and Twitter.

391
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:11,110
In the shownotes.

392
00:19:11,890 --> 00:19:16,360
If you enjoyed this episode, help others
discover as well by rating and reviewing

393
00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:17,980
it in your favorite podcast directory.

394
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,990
And don't forget to follow
us on Twitter @WebJoyFm.

395
00:19:23,530 --> 00:19:52,004
Thank you for listening and have a
great day Next episode on WebJoy.

396
00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:56,570
Nick: Front end is an example, like,
pretty much our entire tool chain is all

397
00:19:56,570 --> 00:20:02,140
open source, started off with stuff like
Broswerfy BrowserSync then we have Webpack

398
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,795
and we've got stuff like Parcel, Babel,
Rust is open source, all these things,

399
00:20:06,850 --> 00:20:10,930
they're literally all open source, and
you can see that it's actually pushed

400
00:20:10,930 --> 00:20:15,280
forward, tool chains and development
through all that collaboration, because

401
00:20:15,285 --> 00:20:17,080
all of that code was put out there.

402
00:20:17,530 --> 00:20:17,890
You know?

403
00:20:18,070 --> 00:20:22,040
So I really like that about it, but
another aspect which gets back to

404
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,105
people is I really like interacting
with the developer community.

405
00:20:25,105 --> 00:20:26,365
It's something I enjoy a lot.

406
00:20:26,845 --> 00:20:29,695
You know, by having all that out
there, it's a great way where people

407
00:20:29,695 --> 00:20:33,585
can also learn, maybe they realize
it, but they forget sometimes.

408
00:20:33,635 --> 00:20:35,615
You literally have all this code out here.

409
00:20:35,615 --> 00:20:38,435
You're trying to learn something, you
know, you wanna figure out how something

410
00:20:38,435 --> 00:20:42,535
bundles go look in a bundler project,
the code is literally all there.

411
00:20:42,565 --> 00:20:44,805
I think those are kind of the
things that bring me joy, at

412
00:20:44,805 --> 00:20:46,810
least right now in in my career.

413
00:20:48,850 --> 00:20:52,300
" Eddie: We're like
Detectives" with Nick Taylor.