Ellen Croupe is a mental health advocate, peer coach, educator, and the director of awareness at Habit Aware, which is a wearable device that helps people with hair pulling, skin picking and nail biting.

Today we're going to learn all about this and just how it can help us as operators behind the chair, work with our customers who have these challenges.

Welcome back to the Hairsister Strong show.

My name is Robert Hughes and I am your host and today I'm with Ellen Croupe.

How are you doing today, Ellen?

Hi.

I'm so excited to be here.

Thank you for having me.

This is so fun.

Awesome.

Well, thank you for coming.

I know we had some back and forth and we trying to get this date together and shout out to Wafaya.

We met, I met Ellen at Oasis Curl Salon in Rockville and we were there doing, shooting some walkthroughs for the shadow program and Ellen happened to be getting her hair done and Wofea made the introduction.

So thank you, Wafaya, for making this happen.

Thank you.

Okay, so this is a really interesting topic.

Not only is it like, I think it's National Stress Awareness Month.

That's, that's correct, right?

Yep.

Yeah, we just, we just dropped, we just dropped an episode at the beginning of the month that talked about, about reframing stress.

And that was a, that was a good, that was a good topic.

And I'm so excited to have you on and talk about something that many of us, if not I don't know of all of us, but most people I talked to said they've had at least one customer who usually in the back while they're working or up here, they're like twisting and picking at their hair and it's just like, it's like, looks like it's been shredded.

And then, you know, they're always really self conscious about it.

And you know, I do my best to just like do their hair as it is and, and try not to like give them recommendations of what they can do because, you know, at this point in my career, I've recognized that it's the thing, you know, so it's not, it's not like, it's not like, oh, someone needs to find like a fidget tool.

Like this is like a real like thing that people are in therapy for and work really hard to deal with.

And so it's really, I'm really excited to have this conversation because, like, it'd be great if we could learn how to talk about it better and make people feel more comfortable.

So tell us a little Bit about the story of Habit Aware and you know, introduce us to what you do and the company that you're with.

Well, thank you.

And I'm so happy to do this because you guys are really the front lines.

You're intimately involved in people's heads and faces.

And these disorders, they're known as body focused repetitive behavior.

So hair pulling disorders, trichotillomania, skin picking is dermatillomania.

There's even a name for nail biting.

So here's the story behind Habit Aware.

It's.

Trichotillomania is one of the most common disorders that no one wants to talk about.

Who the hell wants to talk about that?

They pull out their hair.

People who do that.

And I am one of those people.

We think we're weird, we think we're freaks, we think we're the only ones that do this.

And luckily there's this one woman, her name is Anila Adnani.

She's the founder of Habit Aware.

She pulled out her eyebrows and eyelashes for 20, 30 years, told nobody.

So trichotillomania isn't just scalp hair.

It's eyebrows, eyelashes, body hair, even pubic hair.

So she pulled out her eyelashes and eyebrows, never told anyone.

Her husband didn't even know.

They were married three years.

He had no idea.

She was a master of hiding it with an eye pencil and she would pull out just enough to sat satisfied and then she covered up.

One morning though, she woke up and looked in her side mirror and an entire eyebrow was gone.

And so she went into the bathroom to grab her eye pencil and she literally banged into her husband Samir, who looked at her and said, anila, where are your eyebrows?

And she was caught during the headlights.

So she confessed her hair pulling secret and she was really frightened.

She thought, oh my God, he's going to divorce me.

He's going to not want to be with me anymore.

And it was completely the opposite.

He met her with love and compassion.

They researched and learned all about trichotillomania, which I'll get into in a moment.

But what happened is one night they were and trichotillomania, I will say this, it's a self soothing behavior.

It's not self harm, it's a.

It serves a function.

It just doesn't serve us well.

So it can help you relax, it can help you concentrate, it can help you with stress, it can help you feel boredom, lots of different things.

So she's watching TV and she's scanning.

She doesn't even realize it because it's so automatic and her husband gently takes her hand and moves it away.

She gently resists the urge to punch him in the face because no one wants to be told.

And she said, jeez, if I just had something other than you.

And that was their impetus.

It's like, there's got to be something out there.

There was nothing out there.

So they invented it.

And they invented the original King bracelet.

This is Keen 2, which I'm going to show you, which is our second version.

But they invented an awareness bracelet that when you put it on and you train it for your specific movement, it gently vibrates to bring you awareness.

So using hers as an example, it would be this.

When she comes up here, it would gently vibrate, like a little hug on your wrist, just bringing you awareness.

Hey, your hands aren't where you want them to be.

So you can pause and make other decisions, healthier decisions.

So it went on the market in May.

No, in March of 2017.

In May of 2017, actually, I'm going to backtrack.

So I am 59.

I started pulling my scalp hair when I was 10, 11, in the mid-70s, well before the Internet.

And I remember being outside in gym class, being ready to be picked for teams.

And I must have just been twirling, but I pulled a piece of hair out and I thought, well, this is cool.

But didn't think anything of it until my mother took me to the hair stylist.

You know, they comb out your hair, they go like this.

And I had two bald spots behind my ears.

So my mother my.

The hair stylist, Fatima.

I still remember her name.

This is in Providence, Rhode Island.

She calls my mother over Sandy.

There's something wrong with Ellen.

It's all I heard.

Something's wrong with me.

Look, there's two bald spots behind her ears.

What did you do?

What's wrong with you?

What did you do?

So I lied.

And I said that my best friend put gum in my hair.

And then I vowed I'm never going to pull my hair ever again, which never works.

And for 40 years, I pulled my hair, tried to stop, but stopping was felt impossible.

So, May 2017.

Pulling, pulling, pulling, pulling.

And it doesn't just affect the hair.

It affects the elbow.

That affects the fingers.

People can get carpal tunnel syndrome from the behavior of repetitive behavior.

But I googled what are the latest breakthroughs in trichotillomania, expecting to find the same old stuff.

But I found the bracelet.

So I bought two of them.

And I will share that.

When I first got it, it didn't Work for me, but it was me.

I didn't train it properly.

Then I hopped on a training call with Samir, who's the CEO and Anila's husband, and he showed me what I was doing wr and then it started to work, and it worked so well for me that I reached out to the company and said I have to help others the way you guys help me and ask for a job.

That was nearly eight years ago.

Nice.

That's awesome.

Love that story.

So tell us a little bit about, like, how does it work exactly?

Like.

Yeah, like, tell us a little bit about how exactly it works.

Sure.

So we have some really smart engineers and what.

What the way the bracelet works is it's based on the scanning motion.

So for me, my scanning motion is like this.

So you want to.

With the companion app takes 15 seconds.

On the phone, you would train just the scanning motion.

Keen will sense my forearm positioning, the wrist motion and the wrist speed.

So this is all I would train.

Then as I'm going about my day, taking a drink of water, writing, whatever.

When I come up like this, it'll lock on the positioning and the motion and gently vibrate like your phone to give you that just little hug that tells you, hey, your hands aren't where you want them to be.

This position is different than this position.

So it.

You would train the specific gestures that you have.

Eyebrows, eyelashes, skin picking, nail biting.

So is that scanning?

Is that very common among.

So they.

So people are like kind of feeling for the place that they're gonna pick out.

Yeah.

So you're wearing a beard.

You're wearing a beard.

You have a beard.

It's very common that men pull out the hair on their beards.

They could shave them, but they want to have a beard.

So same thing.

So what you would do is someone might.

You typically scan before you pull.

You don't just come up and pull.

Okay.

Feeling around for the.

We all 10.

We're different, but we're similar.

Typically with hair pulling, it's the kinky or curlier coarser hairs, those that feel different.

And so you're scanning for it.

And so you want to catch yourself vibration before you pull.

So it's really the scanning motion that we're.

That it's going after.

And there's ways of adjusting it to help prevent false alarms.

So what was I gonna say?

So how does somebody, like, talk about this?

Like, yeah, it's like, hey, I heard about this new thing.

Have you heard about it?

I mean, most of the.

I feel like it depends on the person's relationship, the people that I can.

I'm thinking of that I have.

I think if I brought it up to them, they wouldn't think.

It's like, they get a little uncomfortable when I'm like, how's the hair?

How's the hair?

How are you doing with the hair?

And they're like, oh, it's not that bad.

It's fine.

It is what it is.

I don't want to talk about it, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Like, then I'm like, okay, cool, I won't talk about it.

And then I literally will not bring it back up.

And I'll just work with the hair that I have to work with.

But, like, how would you recommend bringing it up?

Yeah, no, it's a great question.

And actually I want to just shed a little light on the person who's saying, I don't want to talk about it.

There is so much.

This is a shame disorder.

There's so much shame.

We feel this deep seated, what's wrong with me?

Why can't I stop?

And I suck.

And so.

And we want to stop.

And so many people have probably told us, well, just stop.

What's wrong with you?

Why can't you just stop?

And it's a medical condition.

It's a chronic medical condition that can be managed.

And it's a self soothing condition.

So I bring that up because that's why it's impossible just to stop cold turkey.

And it's also like if someone had dyslexia or adhd, you don't just stop having adhd, but you can manage adhd.

So how do you talk about it?

Well, there's a.

You.

You as a stylist are so close to it.

And I'm telling you, if, if my stylist had said to me, okay, let me, let me tell you another story, Fatima, okay?

And I'm gonna answer your question.

So I'm 10 and I lie and I say, anne, put gum in my hair.

Now I'm 16, seeing the same stylist.

And I, I'm like, maybe she can help me.

Maybe she's seen this.

So I said, fatima, you know, and I had like pieces that were kind of sticking up and I pulled all over versus one spot to prevent bald spots.

And I said, you know, gotta tell you, I pull out my hair and I'm wondering, have you ever seen this before?

And she looked at me and she goes, well, if you're gonna pull out your hair, don't pull it out in the back, pull it out in the front, you have too much hair there to begin with.

And I don't have to tell you that wasn't good advice.

No, no.

And you don't know as a stylist, when you're in someone's head, could this be alopecia?

Could this be something else?

I don't want to embarrass this person.

And the person in the chair is going, they never said anything because they're so embarrassed.

So I think it is one.

I would have information around.

So like having these brochures around, someone can pick it up and go, hey, Robert, tell me about this.

And then you have an opener.

And I, and I have an article I wrote for Modern Salon, which some salons will have up.

So that there's openers.

Right.

But it really is saying, hey, especially if this person is, you could say, you know, I don't, I might be wrong.

And that.

How would I say it?

I might be wrong.

And that you, this, perhaps you have an autoimmune disorder or it's alopecia, but if you happen to be pulling at your hair, I want you to know that this is the most common thing that no one wants to talk about.

And this is true.

1 in 20 have a body focused repetitive behavior, hair pulling, skin picking, nail biting.

And it's self reported, so it's got to be higher.

Yeah, Nail biting is seemingly way more common and acceptable, at least.

Like, I mean, I don't know how many people feel shame about their nail biting, but it seems like something we've, I don't know, it just seems like it might be and I don't know, like, how would I know?

But like, if I had to assume I wouldn't immediately think that somebody.

I wouldn't think of it as a disorder.

Right.

You know, but that's interesting to know that, that it fits into that category.

Yeah, it's actually in the DSM psychological bible, for lack of a better term.

So.

And it, it did not go in until 1989 for trichotillomania, that's the word for hair pulling.

And not until 1991 for excoriation and dermatillo mania, which is skin picking.

Nail biting still isn't in it.

And these are not.

Some people think they're OCD, obsessive compulsive disorders.

They're not.

They fall under obsessive compulsive disorder.

Someone could have OCD and trichotillomania, but they're not the same.

So again, back to your question.

What do you do?

Are you open to Hey, I see that your hair is changing.

Or you might have some spots there.

Are you open to learning a little bit about this?

And they might go, no.

Okay.

And then maybe you try again another time or you have materials around there.

If I had a.

If, if a hairdresser had said to me, hey, I noticed that some hair shorter than the others and you've got some thinning back there.

Are you open to learning a little bit about why this might be?

I would say yes.

Well, there's this disorder called.

Or this condition.

You don't say disorder.

There's this condition called hair pulling disorder.

It's really common, more common than you'd think.

And there is hope.

I'd be like, are you kidding me?

Tell me more about it.

What can I do?

So it's all on how you present it.

So if you present it in a way of.

Not matter of fact, but more it's common versus there's this thing.

Don't tell me what it's really.

Hey, you know, are you open to learning about this condition?

I might be able to give you some information that could be helpful.

That's really how you open up the door and letting people know that they're not alone, they're not weird.

So many people do this and that.

There is hope and there is healing.

And part of it is it's not just this.

This is just a tool.

Just like your hair, your scissors are a tool, but you have to learn how to use them.

We also help people learn how to use this so that they can create healthier habits.

But you're just the gateway to be able to say, hey, I might have a tool for you that could be helpful.

And I know of some people that might be able to be helpful to you.

What other type of treatments are there out there?

Because I'm sure.

I'm sure if we're gonna approach the subject, we should have a little bit of more information, like, because maybe somebody's already going through some sort of therapy or something like that.

Yeah.

Could you kind of give us the landscape about a little bit about it?

Yes.

So in like anything, there's mild, moderate and severe.

So someone.

And it becomes a condition or diagnosable and covered by insurance with therapists who take insurance when you want to.

This.

I'm going to give you the general.

When you want, person wants to stop, has tried to stop and find stopping impossible and it's affecting their life.

They might.

They're camouflaging it.

You don't have to have bald spots, but they're finding that it's taking them too long to get dressed in the morning, they may not go into the swimming pool, et cetera.

So what are the.

So the most common treatment is habit reversal therapy.

So this isn't just a habit, but there is a habitual component along with what's called combi, or cognitive behavior therapy.

But there's more to it because of the behavioral part.

And it's really learning the function behind the.

Behind the condition.

So, for example, for me, my triggers were concentrating, decompressing, sitting in front of the tv, what, reading a book.

So knowing my triggers, then I can be prepared.

And so if I'm going to read a book, I can have something else to fidget with.

Or if it's 11 o'clock at night and I'm still pulling and I'm reading, okay, well, that means I'm tired, I need to go to bed.

So it's understanding your triggers.

And you can do that with a coach, you can do that with a therapist.

So there are therapeutic treatments that, that will work.

There is no medication.

It's not like OCD where there's a medication for it.

And awareness is really the first step because you can't change what you don't know.

Well, it sounds like.

Sorry, go ahead.

Well, I was in therapy for it.

I saw some really bad therapists and some really good therapists.

I saw some of the best therapists, but it didn't matter.

I could know my triggers till the cows came home.

But once you start, it's so hard to stop.

So I want to catch myself before I start.

And that's where this comes in.

It allowed me, instead of having it, a slap on the face.

What's wrong with you?

Why can't you stop?

And you suck.

Because that's how it would feel.

It's what became.

Wow, I'm getting a little hug.

Okay.

Ellen, you're a rock star.

You're awesome.

What's going on right now?

What do you need?

What.

What is the signal?

Why are you doing this?

And what can we do instead?

Interesting.

So it sounds like the current therapy is not really very different than what this is providing you at home.

I mean, having the person to talk to is not what I'm saying.

I'm saying the actual mechanics, like, like you said you could learn and be.

Educate yourself as much as possible.

It's just there.

It sounds like at the end of the day, it's almost like.

It's almost like any sort of like habit or addiction or anything where it's like you kind of sometimes need something to intervene physically in order to help.

It's the awareness.

It really comes down to the awareness.

And we might think we're aware.

So you and I are eating tortilla chips and we're drinking margaritas, and we know we are.

We ordered the chips.

But we might think we're eating, you know, 25 reading 125 chips.

Because awareness is slippery.

So all therapy, you have to start with awareness.

So if someone wanted to go into treatment for hair pulling disorder or they, the first thing the therapists would do would be to understand, you know, when this is happening.

But the only way to do that is through awareness.

So they'll ask you to keep a log.

When are you pulling?

Why are you pulling?

Where were you?

What were you doing?

No one wants to do that.

Collect the hair.

Who the hell wants to do that?

This makes it easy for the therapist to help the client, then figure out other ways.

What is the function it's serving and how can we serve that function better?

Because this vibrates and every time it vibrates, it registers a data point.

And then you can go in and say, I was, I was working and the time was this and I was feeling angry.

And you know, so you can put in all the data to give to your therapist and then go, well, I have these suggestions.

Nice, nice.

So it sounds like, I mean, I don't, I'm not an expert here, but just based on your information you've given, it sounds like this device is really what the therapy is needed in order to help people, like have.

See, like in a larger maybe number way, material change in, in what they're, what they're experiencing.

Yeah, it's very eye opening because you don't know, like in Covid time they did something where they said people touch their face, I don't know, 40 times in an hour.

We don't realize we're doing that.

And it's the same thing with our hair and our skin and our nails.

So this helps us be aware so that we can make a healthier choice and that we don't feel all the shame for doing it.

So I had a client and I'm going to Google this while we're on the call here.

She told me maybe that's not it, but she said that like touching your face was violation of, I guess, George Washington's rules of civility.

Winning company.

Put not your hands to any part of the body.

Like, you shouldn't touch your face.

You shouldn't, let's see, shake you shouldn't shake your head, your feet or your legs, shouldn't roll your eyes.

You shouldn't lift one eyebrow or higher than the other.

I mean, I think back in the day there were a lot of rules about how to behave.

And I feel like that was a really, just a way to gatekeep out the people who weren't wealthy enough to learn those rules.

But that's just my opinion.

Anyway, I heard her say that and I noticed as soon as she said that I didn't realize how often I touched my face.

And so I can't even imagine if it's like a, if it's anything remotely close to this involuntary behavior and you layer in the self soothing aspect of it.

It sounds, sounds like definitely a mountain and not a hill to climb.

Yeah.

Yes.

And so I'm glad you brought that up because there's, there's, I'm going to call it two types and we all have a little bit of both.

So there's automatic, like you were just saying you didn't even realize you were touching your face.

So automatic where you're doing something else, you're reading, you're studying, you're watching tv, you're driving a car and you're pulling and you don't realize it.

Then there's the focused.

Imagine this is tweezers and I, this is my mirror.

And I know because this has been bugging me all day, I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna get that one.

You don't just get that one.

You get like 101 and then half the eyebrows gone.

And you can get into this trance and you, you think you're in the bathroom for five minutes, but you're really in the bathroom for 55 minutes and you can't get out of the mirror.

I gotta fix this.

I gotta fix this.

I gotta fix this.

Same thing with skin picking.

So it is, it is break it.

It's the awareness to break the trance.

And we, we call it.

Our tagline is love, strength and awareness, which I mentioned to you at the beginning.

We really feel like there is no cure but to be in recovery and to pull and pick and bite less.

It's really the awareness to summon your strength to lead with love so to understand your triggers.

I'm doing it because of X.

It's serving this function.

What can I do instead of pulling my hair in order to do this particular thing?

It's concentrate and then there's all that shame.

Anyway, we could go on and on and on.

So I'm Just thinking for the viewers and listeners who are like, thinking about the clients that they have these issues.

I was also thinking about, like, is it always pulled from the scalp or is it because someone told me that they twist their hair until it breaks?

Well, that's a good point.

So some people pull and then they will, when they pull, they, they like the root of the ha.

So I'm going to get very honest and vulnerable with you.

Most people will do something with it.

So they'll take the bulb and they'll look at it.

They might smell it.

They will rub it on their lips, bite it.

They might bite it into little pieces.

If somebody is eating the hair, eating the bulb is not a big deal.

But if someone is eating hair, it can be life threatening because hair is not digestible.

Oh.

So.

And some people will take out long strands of hair and they will consume it.

Same thing with skin.

They might eat their scabs or there's so.

But to answer your question, some people will just twist and twist and twist and twist and twist and then break it off.

I was, I, for me, it was pulling, but I also would like to snap it.

Yeah, get it and snap it.

And I'm wondering because I, I bring that up because, like, I had, I had a client who the hairline, like, maybe like 2 inches around the hairline was all these different lengths.

And I was like, you know, the hair and skin are usually a barometer for things that are happening inside of the body.

And you might want to go to the doctor.

Something's not right here.

And it turns out she had an iron deficiency and she was like, anemic and was like, really bad in health.

And so.

And then, you know, I've seen people with like skin tags and certain growths.

I'm like, well, this, hey, this is new.

Do you wear of this?

And they're, they're like, no.

I'm like, okay, well, you know, I don't know if there's anything there, but you should see a dermatologist about this.

Same thing with scalp issues.

I'm like, hey, I'll stop.

I'll be like, hey, how's your scalp doing?

They're like, fine.

Like, why?

I was like, let me see your camera.

Let me see your phone.

I want to take a picture on your phone, not my phone.

And I take a picture and I just show it to them.

They're like, oh, wow.

And I'm like, yeah, I would just, I, I mean, I'm not, I wouldn't freak out or anything, but I would Just make sure you go to a doctor and just check this out.

So a lot of the times it's like, hey, how's your scalp doing?

How's your hair doing?

Like, I noticed this thing, um, and with people that I've asked before, sometimes that same kind of shredded hair that won't grow longer than this.

Well, that was.

That was a deficiency for this person.

But because of that, and we've.

A lot of hairdressers have seen that where the person has severe vitamin deficiencies or they're on medication and their hair won't grow as long.

So it looks like.

It looks like it's been growing in and all these different lengths.

Well, you can also see that in different parts of the hair.

And that's also what.

In my experience, what people who twist and pull their hair, it can look similar.

And.

And like, I've only seen a couple.

That is all the way to the root, where a lot of what I've seen is, like, maybe a little bit of root, but then it's like, any length from, like, here to, like, from, like, here to here.

I mean, I don't know if you can even see it, but.

No, I can.

I can.

And you're reminding me for me.

So I would also chew on it, right?

So I would take it and I would fight and I'd bite it, right?

So.

So I would just bite it off.

And so my hair is usually long, but then I would have, like, right.

So all this gone.

So this is short.

This is.

And I'm.

And then I feel like that bigger and bigger.

And it could be that they're chewing on it.

And I also would be like, don't say anything.

Don't say anything.

But again, you're comp.

The way you're doing it is good.

You're saying, how's your scalp?

But you could also then say, hey, you know, are you open learning a little bit about scalp health?

Are you open to learning a little bit about hair health?

Hey, there's different way.

There's different forms of hair loss.

Some of it is alopecia, some of it is.

And there's one that a dermatologist told me about today where I won't get the name of it because I didn't write it down, but literally, the hair just.

Hair grows in three phases.

You probably know this growing, resting, and falling out.

There's a condition when someone is under severe stress where the falling out is intense, and it just can.

It just falls out in clumps.

And if you.

What he told Me is if you can get that issue in order, it'll stop falling out.

So there's that.

There's trichotillomania, right.

So you could tell the person, hey, there's.

Maybe you don't use that word.

You could say there's hair pulling disorder, which is really common.

There's alopecia.

There's whatever that other one is.

There's.

And then they might go, oh, especially if they trust you, they might say, hey, I, I do pull my hair sometimes.

Can you tell me more about that?

Cool, that sounds good.

So offer education.

I feel like what I've done in the past is like, you know, how's your hair?

They're like, fine.

Why?

Yeah, usually there's a why.

If they don't ask why.

I'm always volunteering, like, well, I have some clients who, who, you know, pull their hair or, or have had deficiencies and I've even caught pre.

Cancerous stuff in the past.

So I feel like it's my job to make sure that I kind of stay on top of this.

And it might be nothing, but I don't know how.

I guess, yeah, I guess that's when I would say, are you interested in learning about any of that?

Yeah.

Are you open?

Are you open to learning a little of it?

If you are, I'm happy to share and give you some resources.

And it's just how you say it.

Totally.

And a lot of times it's, you know, for those that have work with adolescents, you know, they're cutting an adolescent's hair or even a young.

Usually these disorders begin pre puberty.

So right around 10, 11, and there it's man, female and male is pretty equal.

But you also parents will go, who don't understand.

And then you can.

To the parent, are you open to understanding what this is?

Because a lot of times the parents will say, like my mom did, just stop, just stop, just stop.

What's wrong with you?

You're going to be ugly.

No one's going to want to marry you.

Oh, it's awful.

I mean, parents a whole nother conversation on that.

So it's.

I find one of the best ways is are you open to learning about this?

You guys are.

Don't need to be the experts right in what this is, but being the expert in opening up the door to allow this person to find what they need.

I met a therapist like you.

Therapist?

Well, you're a hair.

Hair.

How did they say it?

Therapist.

Yeah, therapist.

I met somebody who saved someone's life because it was a Melanoma that they saw.

Yeah.

Wow.

Right.

And you also might see scalp, but when you're washing people's hair, you might notice eyebrows or eyelashes missing and you might notice a lot of skin damage on the face or maybe not a lot, but that someone's always has picking on their face.

And you could be someone.

You guys are like the internist and the pediatrician and in some ways you're more than that because you're right there.

And you can be their fairy godmothers by helping them find help and healing.

Absolutely.

This is awesome.

This is so good.

And so we talked about the story, where it came from.

We heard personal testimony.

We also talked about how to communicate with our guests.

So I guess the next thing is like one.

Is there anything else that you wanted to share about this before we wrap it up?

Any.

Any other testimony or information or anything like that?

Yeah, really, it's.

It all begins with, with awareness.

And, and for hair stylists, it's that empathy and love that you're caring for the person.

This bracelet can be a game changer because it helps open up the door for healing.

And that's what it's all about.

That's awesome.

All right, well, how can people find out about this and.

And connect with you if they have more questions?

I'm glad you asked.

So you can go to habit h a b I t aware a w a r e habitawareone word.com you can reach me, Ellen E L l e n@habitaware.com.

i'd be delighted to mail you brochures.

I'd be delighted to give you a one pager that you can have in salons.

Send you my article from Modern Salon just so that you have fodder for your salons to be able to help these people.

And I'd love to.

You know, I can do a.

I'd be delighted to do a training for anyone who wants it.

And in return, I'll tell you, we have people who need really good stylists who are empathetic and who are good at styling hair and are not afraid to work with somebody and make them feel comfortable and that they have issues going on with their hair.

Nice.

So translation for anybody who didn't pick up on that, this is an opportunity to get new customers and by working by like adopting, bringing this into your salon and then going up on a list of trusted service providers who are aware of your dis.

Of this disorder and where people know that they can go and they're not going to be Shamed.

And you're going to have ideas on how to work with them and you're going to be aware of all this stuff and which I think is brilliant on your part because that is definitely an incentive that this audience, you know, that's why people come onto this show is to learn about how to run their business and how to build a better business, how to build community, how to build business in community.

So I think this is the right place to share this information.

So everybody, if you.

If you're interested, we'll just check the comments below.

There are.

Sorry, the description below and all that information to connect with Ellen and check out Habitaware will be there.

We're also going to tag Ellen and inhabit Aware on social media as well.

Thank you so much, Ellen, for coming on the show and sharing about this.

This disorder, as well as the fact that there is treatment for something that most of us have experienced.

I mean, maybe even in our own personal lives with our family, but definitely with our customers.

I think if someone's fully booked, I feel like it's kind of hard to say that nobody's ever seen this before.

I mean, in order to be fully booked, I have to have like 220 to 250 clients.

That means I should have 20 people.

That right?

20 or 10.

10.

10 people at least.

Right?

5% of the population.

Yeah.

And it doesn't discriminate.

Doesn't matter if you're male or female.

It doesn't matter if you.

What ethnicity you are.

It doesn't discriminate.

And it runs in families.

There is a genetic component.

Oh, interesting.

So you and.

And more Curl.

This is what I've seen because I've seen hundreds of thousands of people.

I've been doing this for eight years.

I see.

And because of the genetic component, I see more people, more with curly hair.

Something about curly hair.

And also Indian face.

Indian Asia Pacific and Jewish.

I'm Jewish.

But there's a lot, for whatever reason, in the genetic line and there's nothing wrong.

We're not broken.

And we can totally.

We can totally take control of this.

And I know it because I've done it and I've seen it.

That's amazing.

I love that.

All right, well, thank you so much for sharing your story and habit aware.

We really appreciate it and we look forward to talking to you again soon.

Okay, wonderful.

Thank you.

All right, bye.