[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information, myths, and those classic old wives tales.

[00:00:27] Dr Renee White: I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is The Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 152 of the science of motherhood. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. Hello. Hello. Hello. Guacamole. It's December and, uh, we're T minus two weeks until Christmas. Enter panic stations. Are you one of those people who you're like, babe, I got this.

[00:00:56] Dr Renee White: I've already done all my Christmas shopping. It's all sorted, done and dusted. I'm not one of those people. I know I will be scrambling, um, to the very, very end. But I guess something that also happens around Christmas time and everything is the school holidays and we're spending a lot more time with our kids because we've got time off and, you know, emotions can be high with, you know, family and friends and all that kind of fun stuff around this, uh, period of time. So I feel like this episode is really well timed to be honest with you. We have got a lovely guest who has been on the podcast before, and we talk about this very briefly in the beginning. She was on episode nine of podcast. So we were very green, very new, and the guest is the beautiful Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini and Siobhan is an amazing expert in child development. She's got a PhD in it. So, you know, she's got the theory and she's also got a lot of practical, practical experience as well, professionally and personally. Um, back in the day, four years ago, she had, a little cherub and now she's expanded it to two.

[00:02:36] Dr Renee White: So yes, lots of, lots of personal experience with this topic. And that is around setting boundaries with your little ones. Siobhan has got an amazing set of skills when it comes to children's social and cognitive development and you'll hear in the podcast, how. Her work really focuses around the dyad that is the parent child relationship.

[00:03:05] Dr Renee White: It's not just all about uh, quote unquote, fixing your kid. Challenges and problems arise. You will know from her social media that she is extremely passionate about educating and empowering parents and early learning educators. with knowledge around, you know, children's social and cognitive development.

[00:03:27] Dr Renee White: And she, like, her socials are just so, so good. And I, I just love, I always jump on there and I'm like, what can Siobhan help me with today? So you'll see that she has got the, she's got The account science minded, which is, and I'm going to find the actual handle for you because there's underscores and yes. Okay. So it's science underscore minded. There we go. I knew there was an underscore in there somewhere, but our chat today is essentially off the back of me reaching out to her and going, Hey, can you help me with some like, um, boundary issues with kids? That would be really great. Thanks very much. So Siobhan talks about attachments.

[00:04:21] Dr Renee White: Like, you know, let's put a definition around what that is, attachment parenting. And then we dive into, you know, the importance and value of setting boundaries. And I guess, you know, some language that you can use with children, depending on the different age groups. And that also needs to be, you know, like you've got to keep that in mind.

[00:04:41] Dr Renee White: Like what you say to a two year old is going to be a very different conversation to what you would have with, you know, a six plus. But we talk about not only. As I said, you know, the child kind of perspective, but also from an adult perspective as a parent, how do we navigate those things with your co-parent, you know, your partner, your husband, your wife, you know, whoever that is, how do you navigate that?

[00:05:07] Dr Renee White: And I have purposely asked questions around some real life case scenarios as well that I would just absolutely love to know. So, you know, things like drop offs and how to navigate that. Things like, you know, there's a disagreement in the house and you're kind of, you know, battling it with your child and then, you know, your other co-parent comes in and goes, hold on a minute. What are we really arguing about here? And is this even worth What, like, what's the value in arguing about this? So. really, really tangible tools to put in your parent toolkit. This discussion, like I was writing notes. So, yeah, I think you're going to find this a really valuable, um, podcast. All right. Let's jump straight in to our chat with Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini.

[00:06:04] Dr Renee White: Hello and welcome to the podcast, or should I say welcome back to the podcast? Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini, how are you?

[00:06:15] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: I am so well. Thank you so much for having me back. We were just talking about how it feels like yesterday, but you said it was episode nine?

[00:06:22] Dr Renee White: Episode nine. Oh my god. is um, that's a long time ago.

[00:06:29] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yes. And we were just reminiscing on how your daughter is now a proper grownup. Not really, but she's basically a grownup and I've now got another little boy. So my big boy is almost five and my little boy is 18 months and it's insane. Like a whole lot of life has happened, but also it feels like I spoke to you yesterday.

[00:06:47] Dr Renee White: I know, and I've moved states. Yes. Last time. Yeah. Last time I would have spoken to you. We were still in Melbourne.

[00:06:54] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yeah. You're in Tasmania now. I'm in beautiful Tassie. It's sun shining gorgeous part of the world.

[00:07:00] Dr Renee White: It absolutely is. Uh, no regrets, no regrets here. Today's episode, as I discussed with you offline is a bit of a selfish one. Um, it's one that I was like, yes, I was looking through your content and you always are so insightful with your, you know, education around attachment parenting, and I absolutely love it. But, and this is, this is the selfish part, but I know it's going to be valuable for everyone. I've got friends and family who really want to know about some interesting stuff about boundaries for kids.

[00:07:42] Dr Renee White: I see it all the time, particularly, you know, in the schoolyard with pickup and drop offs and, you know, we've got school holidays at the moment. And so, you know, the mental load of that as well, I think is interesting, and, and I will say from a personal perspective, you know, we recently traveled overseas for four weeks and you're with your kid 24 seven. And so that in and of itself is quite exhausting, but we always find it's a tricky transition when you come back and you get back into regular routine. They're not with you 24 seven and so. it's almost like you have to peel that barnacle baby off you again. I still call my, my seven year old my barnacle baby.

[00:08:32] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yeah.

[00:08:33] Dr Renee White: She would hang off me 24 7 if she could, but um, she's a long limbed child now. And so that, that gets heavy. Yes. Yes. It's the reason why I go to the gym all the time. So we're going to talk about attachment parenting, I think as an overarching kind of start because it's, that is how we kind of roll in our house.

[00:08:57] Dr Renee White: But then I want to really dive into boundaries and I want to pick your brain around how to kind of enforce those in a really safe, respectful way, but firm as well. But before we dive into that, obviously for the listeners who didn't listen to episode nine, if you're new, if you're new to the village, please go back to episode nine.

[00:09:23] Dr Renee White: And um, the discussion we had with Siobhan actually was really interesting because it was during COVID times. And I think I really wanted to understand what the effects of masks were on kids.

[00:09:33] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: That's right. Yeah. I mean, there'll be a lot more research now that's, um, it's so interesting and I don't want to sidetrack our conversation, but I was reading, um, um, I work with daycares a lot and I was reading a thing talking about some educators talking about how the behavior of kids now versus 5 years ago is so different and how do they handle it? And I remember. I haven't commented on it yet, but I remember thinking, guys, COVID, 5 years ago, and 4 years ago, this is covered babies. Yeah. And the long reaching impacts. We are only beginning to understand and it's going to affect like, there's, there's reports, um, like national education reports about how this stuff's going to affect affect us and our kids and society as a whole into the 2030s, the 2040s, like, there's some genetic, like, there's chronic stress situations.

[00:10:24] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Like, it's not, we did everything we did for a reason, but shutting down the world and locking people in their homes, we're a social, we're social creatures. We need interaction. Humans and babies are born designed to interact in that concept in that capacity sorry. So it's going to affect us and it's going to affect things.

[00:10:45] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And it's very interesting from a research perspective to think and to learn about the lasting impacts of that stuff.

[00:10:54] Dr Renee White: 100%. Yeah. And I wonder how that's then going to. Lay out in terms of, like, things like this, things like attachment parenting, because I know that a number of, um, friends and family who had children during COVID lockdowns really do struggle with having, like they're kids away from them. They're just not used to it. Or there's a select, you know, there's a really kind of small circle of people who the kids will quite happily, um, interact with and play with. But, you know, you try to push that boundary out a bit more and then you start to see the anxiety within the children.

[00:11:38] Dr Renee White: Um, you And they just need that reassurance from, from that close circle. But yes, tell us who you are, what you're doing. What are you up to now with your cherubs?

[00:11:48] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: With my little cherubs, good thing they're cute. Um, no one would have them otherwise. No, I, no, I've got a toddler, so I'm just really feeling toddler energy, which is amazing and hard. Uh, but so I'm Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini I have um, I'm a mum to 2 little boys, like I said, 5 year old and 18 month old, who are delightful and full of joy and energy. And I live in Queensland with my husband and my boys, and my background is developmental psychology, so my PhD thesis was in social relationships, so very early social development of newborns and young infants with their parents and kind of the dyadic nature of relationships and how that can inform and mold social development, which, of course, is highly linked to attachment, which is a lot of the stuff I do. Now, I'm a circle of security facilitator.

[00:12:41] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: The circle of security as a bite sized intro is a intervention program that came out of America in the 90s is the only program that is, um uh, like, has almost 30, 40 years of, uh, evidence behind it to support its capacity to strengthen relationships and to improve the security of attachment, and it's an 8 week program and I run it and it's great.

[00:13:06] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Uh, and a lot of my learnings and my teachings, which is all again, based on evidence, because my Instagram account is at science minded, sorry, science underscore minded and I'm all about evidence based parenting and using that to help inform but not dictate what we do because research is great but lived experience is essential.

[00:13:25] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And yeah, lots of kind of emotional, um, security and attachment and parenting and compassion. Absolutely compassion because we all try our best and we're all doing our best at the end of the day and we all muck up because we're humans and that's an important part of teaching our children that humans make mistakes and they can make mistakes too. Anyway, that's a long, yammering, disconnected explanation of what I do.

[00:13:52] Dr Renee White: No, I love that. I love the compassion piece to that and, um, I also, I really love, and it's something that I try to lean into as much as I possibly can, even though it kills me at times, to be, uh, vulnerable and human to my own daughter, because I think that that is one of the important lessons that I learned in childhood. That was something I really struggled with, I think, you know. Um, and I still remember having this discussion with my sister and I was like, do you realise that mum and dad are just human beings and they have made lots of mistakes? And you know, it's just that kind of, realisation that they're not gods and, you know, they're going to make errors in their ways.

[00:14:44] Dr Renee White: And it's just, I don't know, I find that when you apologise to your kid for something, there's just this reset button that happens and then they are more likely in the future, I think from this is my personal perspective to to reflect when they have acted poorly as well and I apologise.

[00:15:11] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: It creates a framework for people make mistakes. Mistakes are okay. If I make a mistake, there's something I can do about it and then circling back and restarting. It just creates like a level of empathy and understanding and compassion, which is, I mean, who doesn't want our children to grow up to be empathetic, compassionate and understanding individuals? Yeah. That's a good thing. That's only, only could be a good thing.

[00:15:37] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. And so, okay, let's, let's, let's get on point. Cause I want to talk about attachment parenting. So from, from the perspective of like someone so green, they have no idea they might've heard of the term attachment parenting. How would you describe it to the listeners?

[00:15:56] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Of course, so there's a little bit of a distinction between attachment theory and attachment parenting, and it's hard to separate in that. So attachment parenting as a term, I think, I'm sure you can fact check this for me because I'm great at being fast and loose with specifics, but I'm very open to being criticised and corrected something. I think it was in, like, the 80s sounds right. There was actually, I'm going to fact check while I'm talking. Yeah. So, excuse, excuse the clicking. But, um,

[00:16:26] Dr Renee White: We are all about evidence based here. So just, you know, get on it.

[00:16:31] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Absolutely. So it was a book written by a person who I'm hopefully going to be able to get a name up. Here we go. Nope. The problem, so I save all my Instagram posts in a Word document because I'm cool and tech and hip, and it's got like over 100, 000 words, which means that my search function is not brilliant. Okay, American pediatrician, William Sears, here we go. He, and I think his wife were the ones to coin the term attachment parenting.

[00:17:01] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Um, they wrote a book in the, no, but I think it was the eighties, but they really highlighted this idea of the five Bs. As the way to create attachment, which side note is not how you do it, but he emphasised that the kind of, uh, the shortcut to secure attachment is breastfeeding, baby wearing, bed sharing, uh, bonding at birth, and then the only 1 that actually is related is being responsive. Okay, there's a little bit of truth to all of these things that breastfeeding can help but only because it's attuned. So you can breastfeed your baby in a highly unattuned way, like if you just shove the baby on the breast and make no eye contact and like feed them for specific times and don't tie into their cues.

[00:17:51] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Like, if you're feeding in a very rigid dogmatic way, then that is not a highly attuned process. By the same logic, you can bottle feed a baby in a really attuned, loving, connected way and same thing, bed sharing, you can, have your baby in a crib and they can love life if you respond to them when they need it and they're getting the comforts and attentions, um, and love and care that they need. Similarly, bed sharing can be helpful if your child, like they're just different ways, but you don't need these things. Nothing's as black and white as that. But being responsive is where it's at. So, basically, attachment and attachment theory is tied into the idea that our children learn that we are there.

[00:18:37] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: We're there for them that they learn to trust that we will. Meet their needs, their emotional needs, their physical needs, all of their needs, which can get a little very stressful for parents because that could be, you can hear that and say, oh, I'm going to meet every one of my child's needs. That could be a lot of pressure. The beauty of things is that there's a lot of research started by Tronic in the 70s, but continued all the way through that. The research has found that in order to have a secure attachment, we typically need to be responsive to our kids 30 to 50 percent of the time, which is actually pretty great, right? I can do 30 to 50%.

[00:19:15] Dr Renee White: I would not have said those, those percentages. Yeah. I would, if you, if you asked me, I would have said 70 to 80.

[00:19:23] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yeah. Yep. Totally. But no, 30 to 50 percent different, different studies find different things, but approximately that, and, the key thing here is it's not that, oh, cool. That means I can turn off 50 percent or 70 percent of the time. What it means is that we don't meet our children's needs because we are humans and because we aren't perfect. So, when my, when I'm like cooking dinner and trying to put the baby in the bath and doing all the things and then my 5 year olds on the couch crying because he stubbed his toe. Even though I want to be able to help him, sometimes there are other things that come first and in that situation, his emotional and physical needs aren't being met and that sucks.

[00:20:01] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: But also, that's a part of that's a part of life. We can't do everything at once. So it's kind of this balance of giving ourselves the compassion and kindness that we're doing our best. But then when we do have the opportunity to turn up, um, and this is something I have to remind myself a lot of the time, because like every other parent in the world, I'm exhausted. And I'd much rather just be like doing scrolling on my phone. Yeah. Then, um, going when my five year old's going, mummy, can you give me a cuddle? I'm like, I really am very touched out. I don't want anyone to touch me, but yes, like finding that space in myself. when I can. And sometimes I do say no, but finding that space when I can to being like, okay, let's reorient, let's meet his emotional cup, help fill his emotional cup and do those cuddles and have that opportunity to reconnect.

[00:20:48] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: So attachment parenting in essence is being present, being emotionally available. It's much more connected to the emotion and relationship needs and it's circle of security and the researchers. Um, Bert Powell, Kent Hoffman and Glenn Cooper, um, who founded it, talk about this idea that we are the safe haven that our children, sorry, the safe harbor that our children explore from. So, when they feel safe enough to go out and explore the world, and then when they've been out in the world, and they, their tank is empty, or they hurt themselves, or they're tired, they come back into us as a safe haven. And so we, that's the circle that they, we're they are. And they go out, they explore and then they come back and they refill their cup from us with our love and our connection. And then, and then it just continues on that circle.

[00:21:41] Dr Renee White: I love that philosophy. That is so, that is so beautiful because yeah, we were just talking offline about how we traveled recently and I was trying to get my daughter to understand how to navigate around an airport or a hotel or whatever it was, but, you know, because in the hope that I, you know, she will go traveling one day independently and I will know she knows how to navigate an airport. Like she knows how to run through an airport with a backpack on. Um, okay. I absolutely bloody love that. Let's talk about boundaries though. So you've kind of already touched on and pun pun touched on the being like, you know, touched out and, you know.

[00:22:28] Dr Renee White: I can totally, uh, feel that even like, I actually want to know when your child comes to you, and this is just me being selfish again with, um, real life scenarios, I'd love to know, what do you do when you're feeling touched out and one of your, beautiful cherubs comes to you and say, mummy, I want to cuddle. And you're just like, Oh man, I just can't. What do you do? Cause I've got something that I do, but I'd love to know what you do.

[00:23:02] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yeah. I, so there's no one thing. I don't have like a single thing. That's a guaranteed if I'm properly touched out and that if. he hops up and climbs me like a koala in a tree. I, and I know that I'm gonna lose it. Then I will say something like, I love you so much. I can't cuddle right now, my body needs space. Um, and he's really interested and we've done so much talking about the idea of like bodily autonomy and it's my body and I'm the boss of my body. And we've got that book song. Yeah, exactly we've got a

[00:23:32] Dr Renee White: Teeny Tiny Stevies.

[00:23:34] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yep. Yep, and he. He's always actually, he's been really co-opting it recently being like, uh, mummy, I'm the boss of my body, you can't put sunscreen on me. Like we've talked about that. This doesn't count.

[00:23:43] Dr Renee White: I love it when it backfires

[00:23:46] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: My child is wonderful and clever, which is great, but challenging. Cause he does this kind of stuff all the time and so we've been trying to reinforce the phrase. Yes, you are the boss of your body, but I'm the boss of keeping you safe.

[00:23:57] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:23:58] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And he's, he's, he's Anyway, we could do it down that rabbit hole. But yeah, I usually do. My body needs a rest. I need no one to touch me. I can hold your hand. We can sing a song, I try to offer an alternative. If I'm really about to, like, explode, I'll go outside and say, I need to take some deep breaths. Can you take some deep breaths with me? Can you count my breaths? I kind of really, you know, Have been modeling regulation because he and I are really, really similar. And I recognise so many things in him that I'm now remembering that I exhibited as a child.

[00:24:28] Dr Renee White: Right.

[00:24:29] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: But, um, in the nineties, children didn't have mental health or anxiety, so, you know, but yes, I'm like, Oh, that was me. Shit. Okay. What could I have?

[00:24:37] Dr Renee White: This seems familiar

[00:24:40] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And it's wild. So we're just doing so much like regulation and somatic work, which I've only learned in the last five years. And anyway, so yeah, I usually do something like that. Sometimes I literally run away and be like, tag, you're it to my husband. Sometimes depending, like if I'm not about to explode and I can give him a little huggle, a little huggle, a little snuggle, um, sometimes I'll do it because I know that I've got a little bit left in the tank because I've learned, and I'm sure you too, that, and our listeners that, um, sometimes if you give them like two minutes, you'll get 20 minutes and then I can go let the steam out afterwards. But it's tricky. It's, and that's what it is. It's the, that's the boundaries, right? Like, but I found the easiest thing. And this is where the self compassion comes back in. The thing that makes it a bit easier is giving myself the self compassion to be like, this is what I need.

[00:25:37] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And this is valid and you have needs to and I always think about attachment. It's not about the child, and so often, attachment is child focused, but attachment is a dyadic thing. Attachment is always a relationship. There's you, me, and then there's our relationship and attachment is the relationship because if I'm giving you everything, and I'm running on empty that's negatively affecting our attachment. And not only is it negatively affecting our attachment, it's showing you that it's perfectly okay. To run yourself on empty for someone else.

[00:26:12] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:26:13] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Which is not the message we want to send to anyone. And instead, and that's why boundary is so important because it helps teach and model to our children that I value us more than you and me. So I'm doing what I can to protect us. Through boundaries.

[00:26:33] Dr Renee White: That is so good. So, so good. Oh, so we have those discussions and it like it. Look, it helps as they get older, but it's the fed the foundations of those little micro things that you do. So, now, you know, Eva's seven and if I'm feeling like I'm like, Ugh, nah, can't do this. Like I'm ha I've had just like a big day and I just need to like decompress. Mm-Hmm. the things I find she's quite responsive with time. Mm-Hmm. . So as in timers, so, Mm-Hmm. . Um, I just need like 20 minutes, so I'll say to her. I just need to lie down. Like, if I've got my period, babe, first day of my period, I just need to lie down for 20 minutes.

[00:27:18] Dr Renee White: You are more than welcome to come sit on the bed next to me with your headphones on and have some iPad time. Cause she'll just want to, she She just needs to, um, she has a thing with her feet. She has to touch with her feet. That's her comfort thing, right? And I should have known because she was a huge kicker in my belly.

[00:27:40] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: My big boy is exactly the same.

[00:27:42] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:27:43] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Always touching.

[00:27:43] Dr Renee White: The burning gates of hell during pregnancy. Yeah. So she will always want to touch me with her feet, which is fine. But I'm like, I just need to close my eyes and lie down for 20 minutes, sit next to me. Do your touch with the feet thing, I don't say it to her, she knows it's going to happen right?

[00:28:01] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Doing your creepy feet thing. Yes. Inside, inside thought.

[00:28:04] Dr Renee White: Yeah, exactly. And I'm just like, and then everyone's happy. And then I'm like, and I've actually said to her, I need to do this now. So we can have an enjoyable time with an activity that you choose next, because otherwise I'm going to be really tired and I'm going to be like, I'm not going to be a good mum. Right. So we, we're at that point now, um, which is good, but that was like micro movements from, you know, two and three, when, you know, we talk about that type of stuff.

[00:28:35] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Totally. When they're little, I find, and this is something I've, figured out as I go along, but because I don't know if we talked much about my experience with my eldest, who was a COVID baby and had severe, like, he had gastro esophageal reflux disease. So, it was just hell, like, hell on earth, postpartum depression, anxiety, psychosis for me, institutionalised, like, terrible. So, none of that stuff would have worked while I was in the absolute, like, trenches and to anyone who's experiencing a really, really tough time. A lot of this goes out the window. Yeah.

[00:29:09] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Like, if you're in survival mode, this is not the time to be doing these things. No. Doing what you can with what you've got, finding ways to survive and to, um, yeah, just keep everyone healthy and safe is like, emotionally is the most important thing. Lots of this stuff does, like you say, happen more, um, in more detail and more conversationally as they get older.

[00:29:31] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: But with my youngest child, we've had a much easier time for lots of different reasons. Ways that I kind of instilled it with him. And we're still getting there is that it's not about the boundaries with him. I'm not about him. They're about me, and it's about I'm setting a boundary and it's about me being confident in my mind that this is my boundary.

[00:29:52] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: This is my line and he doesn't respect it because he's an 18 month old and I don't think they have respect for anything at that age. Um, but. Like, it's more about me being like, I'm not going to let you and being confident that this is something I'm going to stick to, even if you're sad about it. And at the moment, when he's little, it's like, I'm not giving you the kitchen knife, even though you are so desperate for the kitchen knife. He managed to get it the other day because my husband was holding him and he grabbed down and he held it up with such a victory in his eyes and then we went, whoa, whoa, whoa, managed to get it off. But, like, it's I think about being confident. And so, yeah, for him, the things he want are knives, scissors, and medicine. So, like, super, the good thing is that those are things that are so not okay for a small child to have.

[00:30:39] Dr Renee White: It's a real easy, hard no.

[00:30:41] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Exactly.

[00:30:42] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:30:42] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: It's the situations where it's easy to give in and sometimes I do, because I'm a human person and I think you kind of talked about it earlier about with traveling that sometimes it like time. There are times in our lives where we do need to be flexible and demonstrating that without boundaries to our kids. It's really important too like. Yes, on school holidays or on vacation or on, like, things are more flexible. So we do like, we're more flexible. Our family and we're much more flexible around food about, like, eating about treats about screen time.

[00:31:18] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: All of those things become more flexible. Because a lot of those things are comforting and when we're traveling. Things go out the window routines out the window and so we find ways and this is with adults too. We find ways to comfort ourselves. In other ways, we were in Perth for a week recently and yeah, screen time was rampant chocolate all damn day. And our little ones struggled coming back because they're like, but I, I want a treat. And so being able to know in ourselves, and my husband and I had the conversation, like, okay, we're back on normal schedule. But I think, I don't know a lot of the time. I base my boundaries around my capacity, my emotional capacity, like, am I willing to hold this? And if the answer is no, I don't start because it's not great for us or our kids to say, no, you can't have it. No, you can't have it. No, you can't have it. Oh, fine, just have it. I do that too. I definitely do that. Yeah, but what it teaches them. Is that if they just keep asking, we'll give up.

[00:32:26] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yeah. So it's re it reinforces whineness and, um, asking and asking and asking and that is something I'm really starting to try and get better at 'cause my 4-year-old is really persistent. It's one of his many qualities that is, will serve him well in life and is challenging as the parent of him that he's kind of like, I'll just keep going, going, going, going. And so I've had to learn that I have to be really firm at the outset mm-Hmm and. That all starts in my own head being like, is this a boundary? I'm willing to hold. Do I have the mental capacity to hold it? Do I have. The time to fight it, um, and And that's, I think it's kind of that ties into the idea of like, pick your battles because sometimes it's not worth it. And I don't know if you have this, but in recent years, I've been like, I find myself fighting something or like being really hard on a boundary that I don't care about.

[00:33:21] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:33:22] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And halfway through it, I'm like, why am I doing this? I don't know, but I've committed.

[00:33:26] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And so you like, you know, uh, well, we've put all our chips on black now. So I usually, do we just keep going with this one or like, how does that work?

[00:33:38] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: It depends, right? Sometimes there was one recently, I kind of remember what it was where my husband turned to me. He's like, why are you doing this to yourself?

[00:33:46] Dr Renee White: It's always the partner who has, who looks at you and goes, are we really doing this?

[00:33:50] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yeah. And then I go, well, shit, I don't know. And then usually in that, like it doesn't happen that often, but sometimes I will. Turn to my kid and say, look, daddy has pointed out that it doesn't actually matter that much.

[00:34:04] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:34:04] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And he's right. So, like, and then, then I'm usually my sassy 4 year old be like, oh, so daddy's right. And mummy's wrong. I was like, no, we're not going with that. He loves to turn the knife and but yeah, so we're often try to be super transparent and honest with our kid. Again, he's old enough to have those conversations.

[00:34:28] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:34:28] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: But I think I was raised in a household for lots of different reasons. And again, it was the 90s where. Authority, like, the parental authority was. hard and fast.

[00:34:39] Dr Renee White: Oh yeah.

[00:34:40] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And there was no questioning.

[00:34:41] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:34:42] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And the irony is both my parents are quite scientifically minded. So in like, in all of like the academic teaching or like the world teaching, it was like question everything, be skeptical. But I didn't really ever feel that that applied within the parenting domain. Um, and that's something I definitely want my child to be able to ask questions about is my parenting and we've started to have conversations about and he's a bit too young to really get it to be like, I've never been a parent before. So, I'm figuring this out and you know how you're learning to be a kid. I'm learning to be a mum and we're going to teach each other and we're going to make mistakes. I'm going to work together because we're on the same team.

[00:35:26] Dr Renee White: Okay. I've got so many follow up questions. Yes. I want to go right back. I want to talk about if you have a scenario where you are struggling with a child. Who is constantly pushing that boundary, pushing, pushing, pushing, knowing that if they keep pushing that that you will tip over. I would love to know. Like from a game, I'm all about game planning, right? Anyone who's listened to any of my content, I'm all about game planning. What, what is your advice for that?

[00:36:02] Dr Renee White: And, and obviously it's going to, um, be different with different age groups, you know, when you've got like a two to three year old versus a, you know, four to five year old, what is the game plan with that? And I want it, I want your advice from as far back as do you sit down or do you suggest to parents that, you know, they need to sit down together and work out, okay, This is not working.

[00:36:29] Dr Renee White: Like the family dynamic is not working. We're constantly butting our heads up against our child who is trying to push the boundaries. So we need to get on board with X, Y, Z of these are the boundaries. This is what we're not going to essentially cave on. And then my second part of the question is, and obviously this is where the age comes into it of the child.

[00:36:53] Dr Renee White: Is there any value in sitting down with that child and saying, look, We've noticed that you continue to push the boundary in the hope that we will say yes to whatever that is. Let's say lollies, you know, whatever. I don't know. And so do you sit down with them and say, look, we all need to get on the same team here. And do you have a discussion with them about what that boundary is going to be? I guess maybe part three is, is the value in having a discussion with your child. before it all goes pear shaped. So you're not actually in that moment of negotiation. It's already been established that this is the boundary.

[00:37:43] Dr Renee White: This is the expectation. And just so you know that when you start to push again, this is going to be the consequence. So don't be surprised. What do you reckon? What do you reckon?

[00:37:56] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: I think the caveat is that it depends. Which is absolutely crap answer. And I, everyone hates that because we want nice, simple bite size, do this and this.

[00:38:07] Dr Renee White: Everyone loves a silver bullet.

[00:38:08] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Oh, I love a silver bullet. I want them all day. But so I think the, so I'll go backwards. The benefit of sitting down with your kid and saying those things, provided they're capable of having those discussions. Um, and even if they are capable of having them, they're still going to push the boundary.

[00:38:25] Dr Renee White: Absolutely.

[00:38:26] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: I think the risk of having those discussions is sometimes parents think, well, I've told you, so now, you know, not to do it. That's the value of having the sit down is not for the kid. The value of the sit down is for you as the parents to get it really crystallized in your head that right, I have decided that if you do X, I will do Y.

[00:38:48] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And this is and, like, I think Dr Becky Kennedy says it great is that boundaries. I'm not asking your child to do something boundaries require nothing of our children. A boundary is if you do this, or if this situation happens. I will do this. So it's all about the onus of everything is on us as the parent to to set the boundary and then hold the boundary.

[00:39:07] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Our kids don't have to do anything. Yeah. If if we're if they need to do something, then it's a request. It's not a boundary. And having the conversation with the kid, a child's job is to test boundaries. The point is um, a child is to learn. what's safe, what's acceptable. And that's how we learn. Like, I was thinking about this the other day, like as thinking about first time parents, how we often get first time parents, it's very common. And you would know in your work to be black and white about things.

[00:39:36] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:39:36] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And the reason we get black and white about things is because we're trying to learn the boundaries of any situation. And we're trying to establish our own boundaries. And if we're constantly like dancing with the gray, We don't know where the boundaries are.

[00:39:49] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: The gray is allowed to filter in once we know where the walls and the boundaries of a situation is, and our kids are trying to do exactly the same. They're trying to learn what's safe, what's not safe, what's acceptable, what's not acceptable. And the real value of us as parents of having those boundaries is the consistency.

[00:40:07] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:40:08] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: We're allowed to flex and we're allowed to teach them that different situations. So, whether it's on holidays or whether when we're at grandma's house or at school, like, things are different and children learn context specific. Rules very quickly and efficiently, but if we're constantly moving the goal posts, then they're going to push more because they don't know where the boundaries are.

[00:40:29] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:40:29] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: So I think the value is sitting down and solidifying our own sense of where those boundaries are. So that then we can be more consistent with them and when we're more consistent, our kids learn what's valuable and importantly, like, knowing when to pick our battles and knowing. Because because a child's job is to push against boundaries, we want them to have as much freedom as is safe and sensible for them to be able to do. So, because if they're, um, we were talking about this offline, this post that I did, which I think kind of, started the whole ball rolling about you wanting to talk about boundaries is this idea of wide fence. Hold up wide fields, solid fences.

[00:41:11] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:41:12] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: So the wide field is we give our children lots of freedom because the fewer boundaries they have to push up against. The less they will, but then when they do push up against the boundary, it's solid.

[00:41:23] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:41:24] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: So they learn they push up against it still, it's still going to push up against it, but they learn that it's a solid 1 and. mum or dad or whoever says no, and that's the rule. And I'm always going to try because I'm not silly. Of course, I want that chocolate or I want that extra screen time, but they learn that it's a solid line. And often I see parents and I'm guilty of this at times too, of course, is when you start to get quite authoritative and quite strict around. No, you can't. No, you can't. And every, word our child hears is no, is because we've really tightened that, like, we've tightened things around them.

[00:42:00] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: They don't have that freedom to explore. They're running around crazy in the room and they're just trying to do anything. But then it's chaos and we just go, oh, fine do it, fine do it. Like, and so it's this kind of, I can't remember what I called it in the post, but something about flimsy fences and. I don't know, but the idea that we put up all these boundaries, but we don't hold any of them.

[00:42:21] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: So our kids run riot and they're confused. And I think a huge takeaway around boundaries is boundaries help kids feel emotionally safe because they know that someone's in charge. There's nothing more terrifying than a child thinking that they're responsible for the rules, like that's a parentified child. That's a child who has way too much pressure, way too much responsibility, and it can cause so, so many challenges for them because that's not their job. Their job is to learn, to explore and to grow.

[00:42:52] Dr Renee White: What are some of the hallmarks of a child who feels like that?

[00:43:00] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Insanely anxious, um, and it might not come across that way, but those children are insanely anxious, really high strung, um, and often for some children, they're very explosive, um, in their emotional outbursts because they have so much pressure. They're built up, like they're building this, um, this intensity up, uh, that then gets released. It can also be like, like, kind of you think about, like, the good girl who does everything right and like, then has a lot of this internalised anxiety and pressure.

[00:43:34] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:43:34] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: So. When kids have boundaries and that are that are consistently enforced and held. Um, even if they don't like them, I think so, this is not at all fact checked. But I remember someone saying. Something about how children of permissive parents, so parents who just say, yes, do whatever, I don't care, are worse off than authoritative parents who are the hard, like, if you think about 1950s dad, he's like hard and harsh. And that's not, both of those are bad, but the idea that a child of a permissive parents is worse off than a child of authoritative parents, not, because like either of them are good, but because at least with the authoritative parents, the kids know what the rules are.

[00:44:17] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Right.

[00:44:18] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Like, they're both still bad. Yeah. And what we are looking for is that kind of authoritarian, which is that middle ground where there's kindness and warmth and and boundaries, but in the situation, like, kids are so desperate for boundaries and, and it's not about like being told they can't, it's about feeling held. The boundaries help them feel held, feel like someone's in control, someone's got my back, someone's in charge. Yeah. And it's scary to be in charge, which is why we as parents sometimes struggle with this stuff.

[00:44:52] Dr Renee White: Oh, God yeah. Especially as first time parents. You're like, and we are navigating this for the first time.

[00:44:57] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yep. And I mean, I, it comes out of my mouth regularly. Oh, okay. That's what we're doing. Great. Okay.

[00:45:06] Dr Renee White: I, I, I approve of all of those things. I am going to ask a few specific case studies around, um, Uh, drop offs. How does one handle that? So let's give the case scenario that you've got, so it's a kindergarten kid, a little boy, um, mum, they've discovered that mum can just not do drop offs anymore because it ends in tears and the child just won't let go of mum.

[00:45:43] Dr Renee White: Dad is fine to drop off, not a problem. So how, how do you balance that? Because it's obviously a lot of pressure on dad all the time and they, they do want to be able to share the drop off load. So, what, what have you got in your tool kit Siobhan for that?

[00:46:06] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: I'm smiling because this is me with my eldest. So, I'd like to, um, preface this with temperament matters so much. So temperament is kind of the precursor to personality. And it's typically what we talk about with little ones because personality doesn't become solidified until well into later childhood and adolescence, but temperament kind of explores the way in which our bodies and brains and nervous systems interact with the world.

[00:46:32] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: So some babies and kids are highly sensitive. They're the kinds of kids who Um, their eyes dart around the room when they're babies because they're taking everything in. They're probably, um, much faster to cry or be affected by things. They're the kind of baby who knows that they've got a wet nappy as soon as they've done a wee. They're the kind of kid who cannot tolerate a dirty nappy. They might be really fussy around food. They might be difficult to feed because they, uh, like, you have to feed them in a dark, quiet room because they're just so distractible, um, because they're taking everything in. There are also other kids who are just chill.

[00:47:07] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: They're chill, happy kids. That's actually the majority of people. Apparently, both of my children are not that way, but, um, particularly my eldest is, and it's hard to know chicken and egg situation because covert and chronic stress can exacerbate these things, but we will never know the answer to those questions. But these little ones need more support when it comes to, um, drop offs and being cared for by people who are not necessarily their primary attachment figure. It can be really, really challenging. So, my eldest cried at drop off until last year. And thankfully, towards the end of last year, it was just silent tears, which is still terrible because they still got cortisol racing through his body.

[00:47:53] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: But before that, it was like screaming, clinging. Like, clawing at my body and I was, I couldn't do drop off for 2 reasons. He would get so distressed and then I would get so distressed. So, for a lot of the time, dad did drop off because it was he still cried, but it was easier for everyone. So where it's possible to do that, I would do that because you have to, like, one of the best predictors of children's well being is the well being of their parents.

[00:48:23] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And so if mum is going into every day, highly activated, highly distressed, spending her whole day stressing about her kid, that's not great. That's not great for anyone. The other thing I would do would be trying to highlight who, the kids favorite educator is so, um, if they're in a kinder room, is it the kindy teacher?

[00:48:45] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: It might be. It might not be. It might be the helper. Um, it might be someone like it might be someone from the baby room, like who knows, but try and really highlight who their person is and build up that attachment because probably what's happening is the kid, is feel it's they're experiencing separation anxiety, which is where they feel anxiety at being separate from their primary attachment figure, who, in this case is probably mum.

[00:49:11] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: They probably have a wonderfully healthy relationship attachment relation with dad, but it's not like, the primary 1, and so, therefore, they don't feel as conflicted when they get when they separate. So, what I'd be doing is building up as much as you can. The attachment with the caregivers that can be. And I really highlight caregivers here, and I know that in the early learning space, we're moving away from the term caregiver to educator. And I understand why for lots of reasons, political and etcetera, giving care and offering care and support is so beneficial and essential to the well being of little kids, particularly five and under, because they can't learn and grow and do all the things they need to do if they don't feel emotionally safe.

[00:49:58] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:49:58] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And so I'd be doing things like finding highlighting who his person is at at Kindy and then like, really amping that up, like, making, talking about them, talking about the teacher, um, telling stories about the teacher at home, um, making opportunities to connect with the teacher asking, like, what's your favorite color? Like, just really kind of not love bombing. That sounds bad, but. finding ways to really enhance that relationship so that when they go to kindy, they feel safe and secure. Having said that, it's hard work. It can take a really long time. We did all of those things with my big boy. Um, and it was just developmental for him.

[00:50:40] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:50:41] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And it was only now he's in kindy. It was only kind of the first few months of kindy where it started to calm down, but it's really hard. And lots of these things outside of our control, particularly with all of the difficulties in childcare and like staff turnover can be really hard because you build a relationship with one educator.

[00:50:59] Dr Renee White: Oh yeah. Well, thankfully here in Tassie, it's, it's, it's, they're part of school. Of course. So it's just another, it's just another kind of class. Um, so that's good. But yes, there is, so they do have a primary teacher. They take, they, you know, more often than not have a teacher's assistant as well, so, yeah. Okay. All right. That's interesting. So yeah, can almost like. Not divert the care, but make sure it's like there's another layer of care.

[00:51:32] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Exactly.

[00:51:33] Dr Renee White: They can attach to.

[00:51:35] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yeah, that relationship. With the parents will never be superseded by a teacher, but it's not about replacing exactly like you say, it's about providing another layer. In the same way that we support our kids with sleep and like, when we take away a dummy, or we add something else, like, we add a different layer of comfort. It's exactly the same as that. Um, 1 thing that has worked wonders with my big boy, because my husband has to travel for work a bit. Um, so there's this book called the invisible string.

[00:52:05] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Which is all about, it's there's other books that are like it. That 1 is probably quite word heavy, but probably good for a kindergarten kid is the idea that we are still connected while we're apart. So, there's an invisible string that goes from my heart to your heart and really highlighting for the kid that, yes, we're, we're not physically together, but I will always live in your heart. And you live in my heart. And what I do with my little boy, he had a really When we had a sleepover at my mum's house and he was so excited to go because his cousins were there, but he was really struggling at the idea that I wouldn't be there, and so we got a pen and we drew a big heart on my hand and a big heart on his hand.

[00:52:43] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And anytime we get sad or miss each other, we press it and we can feel each other pressing it. And then he's turned it into when, when my husband travels, he's turned it into when I press it, it tickles daddy's bum. And he loves this idea of his dad being like squirming in a meeting because his bum's getting tickled, which is just a beautiful spin to personalise it.

[00:53:06] Dr Renee White: I love that. We did something similar. We did love hearts on the hand, but then one time we also did, um, bracelets. We made a bracelet together and they, she got to make mine, I got to make hers and yeah. Oh, okay. I love that. I have kind of like a follow up question. You know, it is that dynamic and balance of, of parents.

[00:53:31] Dr Renee White: And I'm assuming that The classes that you teach in the security circle, um, circle of security is with both parents. How do you balance, like, for example, if one, if, if you've got a child who is like from zero to a thousand in emotion, or, you know, as you say, they're trying to push the boundaries. How do you balance out, like, maybe one parent is also quite, volatile as well and they get really frustrated quickly and, and cross versus some, you know, the other parent who is trying to be compassionate about it and, and, and work through and regulate that emotion.

[00:54:17] Dr Renee White: What's your advice for parents who are trying to meet in the, in the middle of like, okay, no one is. No one is helping with this scenario. Like we both need to get on the same page. Is that like, are we coming full circle to my previous question, which was like, you can't, the two of you need to get on board first, you know, before you tackle, you know, the actual problem.

[00:54:41] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yeah. I also, um, use it. So in this, in that example, that's me and my kid, I'm quite reactive. I go from zero to a hundred at times. And so it's a mixture of when, when that happens, my husband and I, we do lots of him going, hi, so you know how you exploded? I was like, yeah, I definitely did that. Didn't I? So a lot of it's self awareness.

[00:55:02] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yeah. Um, and then highlighting and I do, I mean, there's times when it goes the other way around being like, so, you know, how he's really losing his patience. You know, how you're really doing that. So, like, the, the beauty of a partnership, yeah. Of any type is that you can call each other out, um, and kind of help highlight things that when you're in it yourself, you don't notice. So, I think step 1 is being really open to the observations of your like, co parent, because they're probably picking up on things that you aren't and seeing that as a. Like a real benefit of that dynamic.

[00:55:36] Dr Renee White: A lot of criticism.

[00:55:38] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Exactly. Assuming it's not like it's so hard because when everyone's heightened, it's easy to get defensive. And I am the first to put my hand up as not always responding well to those kinds of observations, but trying to see it as an opportunity to do something different.

[00:55:56] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:55:56] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And then getting on the same page about it as much as you can. And then I use again, we use it as an example with my kid. I'd be like, so, you know how you get really cross, mummy gets really cross sometimes. Doesn't she? So, I'm going to try to breathe and remember to do my butterfly breaths, which is. A new language he's like for deep breaths that they're learning at kindy, which he's loving. Um, and can you remind, and I've said this to him a few times this week, I'm like, can you remind me when I get grumpy to do my butterfly breaths and I'll remind you and I use it as like an accountability thing.

[00:56:28] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Just being accountable in our family is really important. Like being able to call each other out is something we really value, but it is hard when you're on the same page. And I guess it comes down to in that instance. My husband and me, and we try, like, we're increasingly getting our child involved in this, our big picture values are the same.

[00:56:48] Dr Renee White: Right.

[00:56:48] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: I guess if you don't have the same big picture values, and if you act like, if you're arguing about the core tenants of parenting of, like, no, they shouldn't be allowed to do X, Y, and Z, like, if that isn't there. it is a lot more challenging and you need to have good conversations.

[00:57:03] Dr Renee White: Yeah. So, so do you, just to clarify, if, if that, if you are in the moment of like this, you know, big emotion or kind of like moment with your child, do you, do you kind of, become self aware with your other, with your partner in that moment. Or is it something that you take offline later? Like, do you think that there's value in doing it in front of your child or do you get what I mean? Like, how would you handle that without, I guess I'm just really mindful of like undermining my, my co-parent, you know what I mean? You just kind of like, you don't want to turn around and be like, okay, I'm just going to throw you under the bus because like, this is not cool anymore.

[00:57:49] Dr Renee White: Yeah. How do you manage that?

[00:57:51] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: We do both and we don't, like, we don't, we don't always do it in front. Sometimes I just get like both of us, like sometimes he'll give me the eye or like an eyebrow and I'll be like, okay, rein it in or vice versa. Um, or we'll just kind of visually, facially in a way that our kid isn't picking up on and be like, I don't agree with what you're doing right now.

[00:58:10] Dr Renee White: Yeah. You've got like the sign language.

[00:58:13] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yeah. And that normally causes one or the other of us to be like, Oh, Not not to stop, but to take the gas off the pedal a bit.

[00:58:22] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

[00:58:23] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: To just slow down and be like, okay, and then sometimes in the moment, we'll have like, a quick side chat and be like, okay, this doesn't work for the following reasons, because literally 2 seconds ago, I told him that he could do this.

[00:58:36] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:58:36] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Sometimes we do it in front of him using child language being like. So, daddy, the reason that, um, he thought he could do that is because I just told him he could and then daddy will be like, oh, I didn't know that mummy's wrong. We're not doing that, and like, we'll. Or, okay, we can do it because, like, we'll try to it depends on the thing, right?

[00:58:58] Dr Renee White: Yeah, sure.

[00:58:58] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: But sometimes we'll highlight. Well, I didn't know that that was what we were doing. Yeah. So now we're doing this.

[00:59:04] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:59:04] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Um, if they're like. Anything that's like, big and really important. We take away, or if it's really charged, like, if 1 of us is getting properly upset, you take that away. But in terms of doing it in front, I am really actually, this is something my husband and I kind of slightly disagree about. He thinks that we should always present the united front, although he's starting to change on that a bit, whereas I think there's real value in our kids seeing healthy disagreement.

[00:59:36] Dr Renee White: Yes, I'm a huge advocate for that.

[00:59:40] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And like being able to work it. And I, it's kind of ties into the same stuff of like apologising to our kids.

[00:59:46] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yes. Highlighting that humans don't agree so much of the time.

[00:59:52] Dr Renee White: Yep

[00:59:53] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And if you live with another person, there's going to be things you don't agree about. And, like, really modeling that there's some things you don't agree about. But you choose to not care and just deal with it. There's some, some things that you don't agree with that you need to bring to and come to a discussion.

[01:00:08] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: There's some things you don't agree about that you bring to a discussion and it goes nowhere. Like, there's all levels of. like finding ways to make it work. Um, and I think modeling children learn best from observation and modeling. Always. They always learn what we do more than what we say. Um, so for better and worse.

[01:00:31] Dr Renee White: I totally agree. And I think it translates like it translates as easily at, you know, We had a bunch of kids over at our house yesterday for a big mega play date. Um, and there was a disagreement over, you know, the scooter and, you know, it was just, no, I want to, I want the scooter and, you know, six other kids were going, but hold on a minute. I want the scooter too. Like we wanna have turns and I could hear them and I was watching them. Mm. I was like, just, you know, perched up

[01:01:07] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: With your popcorn .

[01:01:08] Dr Renee White: Yeah. I was like, oh, how's this, how's this gonna play out? Um, and in the end, um, you know, there was just too many cooks in the kitchen. Yeah. And um, Eva came and got me and she was like, we can't decide about the scooter. And like literally I walked down. And I'm thinking, I'm not making any decisions on this. They're going to have to work it out themselves. But I just was present. And I was just like, so like, I was just like, so what's the game we're playing. And they started to explain what was happening. And then it just diffused because everyone kind of started to get their turn about their opinion.

[01:01:53] Dr Renee White: And then you could see the cogs moving in other people's brains. And they were like, and then like, I'm not joking. 20 seconds later it was done. They formed a line. They worked out who was going next, and it was just, I was like, okay, see you later. Bye. I'm going to go make a cup of tea. Um, but I liked the fact, as you say, I think it's so important for them to learn that everyone has got a different of opinion and that's okay.

[01:02:21] Dr Renee White: It's how you. Project that opinion onto others and also what you do with that. You know, are you going to take it on and feel either one, that you need to have that opinion as well and be the doormat, two, are you just going to stand there be like, that's totally cool. But I've got my opinion as well, like, I think that they are all really, really important lessons to have.

[01:02:46] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And I think like how wonderful if we can have children who become adults in the world and society who are open to hearing other opinions.

[01:02:54] Dr Renee White: Yes!

[01:02:56] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: The world does not have enough of those people.

[01:02:58] Dr Renee White: Oh my god, yes. And be, also, Be thoughtful and critically analyse those opinions, but don't, but not coming from a perspective of I'm going to prove you wrong. You know, I think that that would be, we're talking about me ticking off milestone goals with my kid. That would be like a huge, like, bucket list item for me to go. Yep. My kids are totally open to hearing other opinions and being like, yeah, cool. That's great. You know, but have you thought about this? Yeah, I think that would be awesome.

[01:03:34] Dr Renee White: Hey, Siobhan, we've run out of time. I knew this was going to happen before topics, but we are going to squeeze in our rapid fire. If I can hold you for another five minutes. Yep. Um, okay. Are you ready?

[01:03:49] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yes.

[01:03:50] Dr Renee White: What is your top tip for mums?

[01:03:53] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Self compassion. That's really, like, I, someone asked me the other day about if I could go back to, like, the me in the first year of my eldest, um, what would you do? What would you say? And I remember, like, I wouldn't do or say anything. I'd just hug me.

[01:04:09] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[01:04:09] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Um, like, there's, you know, And it ties into opinions and everything which like everyone's really trying the best they can. And if I think if we can approach everyone and ourselves with that concept and that idea and just give each other so much more grace and compassion, we'd all be so much better off.

[01:04:31] Dr Renee White: I love that. Um, do you have a go to resource? Will there be a book, a workshop, a poem, a class, a quote?

[01:04:41] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: There's a quote that keeps coming back to me throughout my adult life and it's by a poet slash, I don't know what the right word is, but he was intentionally wrote very whimsical, ridiculous poems that my granddad used to always tell me.

[01:04:58] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: But the poem is, This is my dream. It is my own dream. I dreamt it. I dreamt my hair was kempt and that my true love unkempt it, which is so perfect for my life. Cause I'm the kind of person, I'm quite like high function anxiety. I like control, like things to be in a line. And then my husband or my children who are my true loves, they come along and they mess with my shit. And I really try to remind myself that like, this is my dream. Part of being in relationship with is that things get messy. And that's the dream. And it's hard.

[01:05:37] Dr Renee White: It's the beautiful part.

[01:05:38] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yes, exactly.

[01:05:40] Dr Renee White: It's absolutely beautiful part.

[01:05:41] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yeah, that's by Ogden Nash. He has other wonderful ridiculous things.

[01:05:44] Dr Renee White: Oh, okay. I'm going to get you to send me a link to. Yes. Last question we always ask our guests, famously borrowed by the lovely Brene Brown. What do you keep on your bedside table?

[01:05:56] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Hmm. My eye mask. Cause I,

[01:06:01] Dr Renee White: do you have a full blackout one?

[01:06:02] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yes. Yes.

[01:06:04] Dr Renee White: Oh my God. I love them.

[01:06:06] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: I've only had it for, I've had it for like five or six years because it was this eternal argument with my husband who used to read in bed with the lamp on and I would get all indignant and be like, turn the lamp off I'm trying to sleep.

[01:06:17] Dr Renee White: Get a Kindle. Okay.

[01:06:19] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: No, I know we are, we are traditionalists. We need like paper in our fingers.

[01:06:24] Dr Renee White: I was, and I have been converted.

[01:06:27] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: It would be so practical, uh, it, but I don't see it in our future, but you never know. Never say never. Um, and yes, and it turned into me being indignant and righteous about, like, how inconsiderate of you, uh, just do what I want and turn the light off. And I, and he rightly said, bugger you. No. And I solved the problem in a different way by using a blackout eye mask, which I now can't sleep without unless like, even if all the lights, if, even if the room is totally black, I need something on my eyes.

[01:07:03] Dr Renee White: Oh, wow. Okay. Well, I love mine because we've got, um, a shitty old house with shitty old curtains that don't do anything with the light. And, um, yes, that is why I have to use mine. And they're great on a plane as well.

[01:07:20] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: And in summer in Tasmania, like what time? Does the sun go down in like at the peak of summer?

[01:07:27] Dr Renee White: Oh god, let me have a look.

[01:07:29] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Because the further south you go, the big, like the longer the days get, right?

[01:07:33] Dr Renee White: Okay, I'm geographically challenged, so I couldn't tell you. Uh, I'm just looking on the app now. So sunset here at the moment is quarter past six at night. Okay. And sunrise is quarter to six, but we're about to do daylight savings.

[01:07:51] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Of course.

[01:07:52] Dr Renee White: This coming weekend. So everything will kind of even out. Yes. But you lovely people in Queensland.

[01:07:58] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: No, we don't do that.

[01:07:59] Dr Renee White: Rebellion.

[01:08:00] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Yeah, the poor cows. Are you excited? I was explaining to a Canadian who is part of my circle of security. He was excited because he goes, Oh, it'll be an hour earlier because you're about to say, Oh, not for me. Because every year around this time, there's an article about how the poor cows would suffer if we did daylight savings, which is nonsense. Of course. But I don't know the logic of us not doing it.

[01:08:24] Dr Renee White: That is so funny. Oh, yeah. I'm sure I'm sure there's some sort of political thing around. Look, it has been absolutely amazing to have you back on the pod. Thank you so much for coming.

[01:08:37] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: You're so welcome.

[01:08:37] Dr Renee White: It's so insightful. I feel like I've learned so much. And I know that others are going to take so much value from this. Really great case studies and I think, um, yeah, lots of learnings, lots of learnings.

[01:08:50] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: Thank you, Renee. Thank you for having me. It's always a delight to talk to you. I feel like we could talk for another seven hours.

[01:08:55] Dr Renee White: Oh, I know. I was like, I think I, I joked to someone the other day and I was like, I feel like I could be like Joe Rogan and talk to someone for like three hours on these podcasts because I don't like, and I just, I catch myself and I'm like, Oh my God, like it's been like well over an hour. We need to wrap this up. But yes, I love chatting with you. I love all your content. I think it's amazing. So yes, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.

[01:09:21] Dr Siobhan Kennedy-Costantini: You're very welcome. Thanks for having me.

[01:09:23] Dr Renee White: My pleasure. All right, everyone. Until next time, we will see you. Bye.

[01:09:27] Dr Renee White: If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well. You've just listened to another episode of the Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. Head to our website ifillyourcup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings, where every mother, we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself. Ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and empowered, so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence. Until next time, bye!