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Welcome to around the House with Eric G. Your trusted source for all things home improvement.

Whether you're tackling a DIY project, hiring it out, or just trying to keep your home running smoothly, you're in the right place.

With over 30 years of remodeling experience, certified kitchen designer Eric G. Takes you behind the scenes with expert advice, industry trends, and the latest innovations for your home.

Home it's everything you need to know without the fluff.

Now, here's your host, Eric G. Welcome.

To the around the House show, the next generation of home improvement.

I'm Eric G. Thanks for joining me today.

This hour is brought to you by my friends at Monument Grills.

If you're looking for that new outdoor barbecue that is affordable and it's gonna last more than just a couple years, check them out@montymcrills.com we are going to be talking speaking of barbecues, we're going to be talking outdoor living today, which in the summertime is one of my favorite subjects to talk about.

And I go way back with this company.

I've done a lot of different things with their many brands.

But today we've got Joe Rabone, VP of design at Old Castle apg And you guys have got like one of the whitest brands out there.

Joe, welcome to around the House, brother.

Awesome.

Eric, I'm glad to be here and looking forward to the conversation, man.

Thanks.

You guys have got so many brands that so many people probably even know about out there.

You've got a fun job there under a huge umbrella of outdoor living.

Yeah, we're sometimes we say we're the biggest company people may not know of.

We have a whole suite of products across brands to really help bring any outdoor living space to life.

Yeah, it's a lot of fun, fun.

Company to be a part of.

Yeah, you guys have big stuff out there from Belgard.

When it comes to pavers and block and moisture shields and the keeps going on and on.

You get into some of the other stuff like sack crete that you see at your home center.

There's just a lot of different stuff from fencing to pools to everything else.

Yep.

Yeah, it's interesting.

I've been a part of the company for about a dozen years, but prior to that I was a vendor and prior to that I was a contractor.

It's interesting to see the evolution of really going from a masonry hardscape company to a full outdoor living company.

As you said, we've got composite decking, railing, fencing, all the above, all the ingredients, cool finishes to to bring Those spaces to life, which is a lot of fun.

And you get to play with the design of all this, which I think is super cool because that's the fun part in my book.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think you and I share a commonality there, for sure.

I. I could design all day, every day, all night.

I love that.

I love, I love the idea that the products we use fundamentally, they're the building blocks.

Right.

Of these spaces.

And the design is really though, what drives all of it.

And using design to create an illicit emotion and really create a space that is a sanctuary place to entertain, place for health and wellness.

To me, I just, I love that.

I love creating spaces that connect people to each other and to nature and yeah, it's.

It's a dream job for sure.

And I think the industry itself is in a really cool spot.

Tons of excitement.

I feel like even though I've been in this industry over 30 years, I feel like we're just getting started in what's possible with outdoor living.

I think it's only been the last five to 10 years that we've really seen it take off out there.

I still say it's the cheapest investment you can make in your house that gives you a bunch of space to live in and enjoy without the massive project of adding on to your.

To your residence.

Yeah, it's just a great buy.

Yeah.

A lot of people don't think of it that way.

I think if you look at the average cost of an addition or even new construction being 250, 350 a square foot outdoor living space, a full blown, all bells and whistles could be half that or much less.

And granted it doesn't necessarily always have a roof on it, but the same features are there as you'd have on the interior, all the living spaces, the cooking spaces, lighting, sound, all of those things.

And, and it has incredible roi, which people ask me that question all the time.

Like the space itself, you should be buying these spaces for what they can do.

For you personally, clearly ROI is important, but I always feel like that shouldn't be the driver in why you do something or not.

But yeah, it's been, it's been a radical transformation in the past 30 years, that's for sure.

No kidding.

It was that wood deck, it was maybe a patio paver.

And that was where we were stuck for about 40 years, it seemed.

And then all of a sudden it exploded probably 15 or 20 years ago.

Yep.

And then we started to really get into.

You'd see houses with amazing architecture outside and the landscape architecture.

But really calling that an outdoor living space really took off.

And I'm sure you've seen the trends change from where you started back then to man, the world is your oyster right now.

Yeah, it's crazy, I think, and there's been a fundamental shift in how people think about the space.

And I know you probably read some of this as well.

Especially in the last five years since the pandemic, people's mindsets about outdoor living in general change.

But I think just there's a growing awareness of this need for nature and how our brains respond to being in a natural environment and how important that is for us on a day to day basis.

And you can see this information literally everywhere now, where it's becoming, I would say common knowledge that outdoor living spaces and nature in general isn't an.

It's a, it isn't a nice to have, it's a need to have.

And I think we all experienced that over the last five years.

And you look at what implications that has and the science that's coming out to support this, it goes way beyond creating a space for entertainment.

And all those things are clear, clearly part of it.

But I would say there's this worldwide macro trend of biophilic design and this idea that where we live and work and play in the built world, that we need to do a better job of connecting that indoor outdoor space and connecting it also with the local ecosystem.

So the idea of outdoor living, I think, has become much more holistic in its approach.

And that shift, I would say, is a fundamental.

It's a sea change right within our industry and it forces people to look at these spaces in a much different way.

And for me, I love design.

I love, as I said, I love creating these spaces.

Understanding that, and for a company like Oldcast, clearly understanding that is a key part of our business, but also disseminating that information out into the world to our network of designers, dealers, contractors, homeowners, that these spaces can really, truly impact your life in a profound way that goes beyond even some of our conscious understanding.

And this is where the neuroscience part comes in, which I could nerd out on this all day long and go down a long rabbit hole.

But I just think it's fascinating as we learn more about it.

Oh, it's great, man.

I built an outdoor kitchen space in my backyard where I've got a wood fired pizza oven, a big huge domed one that I built.

I've got the barbecue, it's partially covered, partially not.

I can't be sitting out There cooking a pizza.

And this happened this last year.

And I look up and I see a bald eagle sitting in my neighbor's tree.

Sitting there.

Yeah.

And I.

You just don't get that living inside, cooking in the kitchen, in most kitchens at least, and you're just out with nature.

And quite frankly, in the summertime, when I'm out doing it, or in the fall, in the winter, I don't want what I'm cooking outside heating up and smelling up the house.

Anyway, the other night I was barbecuing and I was going to put it on the.

I was going to cook it in the house and I'm like, I'm just going to run out and throw it in the barbecue because that way I don't have the house smelling like salmon all night.

Now, you think about years ago, people, the homesteaders, had outdoor kitchens, Right.

They had summer kitchens where they had this separate for that same reason.

It is interesting.

I've had this discussion many times over the years, and people, I'll be talking more about this kind of more emotional side of what's driving people.

Yeah, that's true.

What about the guy who wants to smoke a cigar and watch the game and hang out with his buddies and builds this out their kitchen, puts TV out there?

And I said, all right, I can guarantee that guy has a kitchen, probably has a fireplace, all those same things on the.

Why would he spend 50 or 100,000 to do it outside?

Because it feels better.

Right.

And why does it feel better?

And for us, that's the question.

Why are we so drawn to these outdoor spaces?

And I think this is where the scientific community comes in.

We're actually involved with several organizations that are studying this.

And what's fascinating is it's not made up of just people from the industry.

We're talking the medical community, psychiatrists, architects, artists, professors who study fractal geometry, neuroscientists who study how our brains react to subconscious stimuli.

And it's absolutely stunning how this data is showing us that, number one, we have an incredible nature deficit in this country.

And really the built world, the average American spends, If we're lucky, 20, 30 minutes a day outside and we're spending six, seven, eight hours on screens.

Right.

And so we see this direct correlation between stress, anxiety, depression and screen time.

To find out more about the show, head to aroundthehouseonline.com and make sure to follow us on social media around the house.

We'll be back with more from Joe Rabwine, the VP of design at Old Castle APG after these important messages.

Welcome back to the around the House show.

This hour is brought to you by our friends at Monument Grills.

Go get your new quality barbecue@monument grills.com now let's rejoin the conversation between Eric and Joe Rabwine, the VP of design, and at old Castle APG let's get back to the show.

The irony of this is I love technology.

I design all day, but it doesn't take long.

Like, we all just know it when you go outside and you go for a walk or you just within minutes, you just decompress and you don't even have to do anything.

You're just naturally more relaxed.

And that's really the fundamental driver, we believe, of why people want these space.

But I think it's up to us to draw that out and also educate them on the benefits of it.

It's funny, I put an a TV outside in my area, but what I found is I stream music video channels like it's 80s on MTV.

So when I'm outside, I'm not watching some series television show.

I got music in the background like it's music.

And if I want to look up and see what that band's doing, they're up there.

And then these days, my little hack for that is I don't go out and spend $4,000 on outdoor TV since it's covered.

I just recycle my TV that I took out of the living room two years ago when I upgraded and I throw it out there and when I'm done, I go recycle it.

It's like the last of life for it.

It's been outside for four years and it's done great.

Yeah, it's durable enough.

Yeah, no, it's true.

And they're inexpensive enough to today too, that a lot of people are doing that.

You don't need the big weatherproof tv.

You need to keep it weather covered from the weather.

But they'll last a long time if you take care of them, that's for sure.

Sure.

If I get blowing snow or something weird that could get in there, I just go out and throw some garbage bags and some gaff tape around it.

It's good to go.

And then I take it down again.

It'll be fine.

Yeah.

If for $4,000 difference, I can sure do that.

But there's so many great values when you get outside and start designing from the technology that goes into products.

We had our redwood and cedar and southern yellow pine decks going across the country into what was the first generations of composites.

And then heck, I've got moisture shield decking on my deck, which is an old castle brand.

And when I go walking across with bare feet, my wood deck is.

That's on the side.

Is actually hotter than the composite deck, which is exactly the opposite if it was another decking product.

So it's amazing how technology is starting to really step in.

And moisture shield's nothing new with that reflective heat technology.

Yeah, it's interesting.

You're right.

All of this continues to evolve.

And when you talk to people like you're in the landscape, you're out there living.

Oh, you guys are the brick guys.

The foundational products haven't necessarily changed from the ingredient level, but the technology certainly has with different finishes and aesthetics, with textures, color, heat reflecting technology, recycled content.

We are right in the in line, I would say, with what's going on in the digital age, especially when it comes to design and all the other things that bring those spaces to life, that, to me is what's exciting.

I mean, it is absolutely exponentially growing and is outdoor living right now is right on par with.

It's either number one, two, maybe three, depending on who's doing the research of spaces people want, which I think speaks volumes where forever it was kitchens and used to be rec rooms.

And it's always shifting, but you can see how people are prioritizing it, which I think is fascinating.

It is.

And I think people get out there and they go, wow, I've got this blank slate of a house.

Maybe they've got a.

A builder special where they've got that little concrete pad out back off the patio, slider coming off the dining room kitchen or whatever.

And they've got this massive dream.

And my first thing I tell people when they're looking at this is I think the biggest mistake that I see people make is not the proper planning or bringing in the design professionals to actually get you the game plan before you get started.

It's like building the house without a blueprint.

If you don't have it, you're going to be in trouble.

Yeah, I use the same analogy.

I also use the car analogy.

I said, can you imagine if you.

You wanted to go buy a car, but you had to just.

You show up and ask a mechanic to put a bunch of pieces together and make something.

I said that that's basically what happens a lot.

And people are like, yeah, it's expensive.

You're going to recoup that 10 times over.

If you're doing a larger project to get a quality Design, make sure you plan all those things.

And there, there's a lot of insights that the designers have, right.

That they're seeing more projects, they're pulling data from wherever that you don't always get.

I absolutely always say you should invest on that front end.

And even if I tell contractors you might be the best installer in the world, but a poorly designed project will still be a poorly designed project.

And no matter how good you install, it just is.

Oh yeah.

And there's nothing more frustrating for the end user homeowner or whoever else that now has to tear up part of their paver patio, take apart part of their deck and bring heavy equipment into the finished backyard because they want to put gas for the fire pit.

I actually just ran into this problem today.

I still, I get pulled into lots of projects as you'd imagine with my background, but same thing, right.

It's just a lot of times too people don't have the budget.

So they don't.

They like, I'm just going to do this, I'm just going to do the pool for now and do this later.

If you don't plan for it all out of the beginning, it just, it's going to cost you way more over the long term because you did for that exact reason.

Right.

Where you're not thinking about utilities or foundations or access or all the above and you just made everything way more complicated for the next guy that's showing up.

Think about all the electrical you have to put in back there with dedicated circuits.

And if you're putting a pool, that's one thing, if you got a hot tub, another.

But you can have three or four circuits in an outdoor living space out there if you're not careful.

By the time you put appliances and everything else in.

Oh yeah, you need to, that should be your first step is planning where that stuff goes.

That way you've got it torn apart once and you can build from there.

Yeah.

And you can do things like you said, where you maybe stub a gas line in or maybe you put in a foundation for a kitchen, but you're going to cover it with a planter until you're ready to build it.

Or a lot of ways to create efficiency.

If you think through it on the front end and we talk to homeowners about that all the time, that's actually one of the driving forces behind us acquiring the yards end.

Design company is trying to get in on the front end of it just to alleviate some of that.

Because if you look at the interest in out There living for us.

Our thought is, how do we deliver the product, which is really the space, to the consumer in a more streamlined way?

And it really starts with design and obviously education and product.

All those things come together.

But.

But the design really drives all, and people are more design savvy than they've ever been.

So got to make sure you have the right colors and textures and patterns and all those things as well.

But.

But pulling it all together is a.

Is a work of art.

That's.

It's like the difference between a chef and buying the ingredients.

Right.

Yeah.

You gotta have a great recipe, otherwise the meal stinks.

Right.

That's the thing.

And yes, they're more design savvy.

However, they can be so much more dangerous if it's a DIY project, because just because you've got 12 things that look good in your Pinterest folder doesn't mean this is all going to work together.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yep.

It's tough.

It's tough.

And then what happens is the project gets going, they get halfway done, they realize they're in over their head, and maybe they even hired the wrong landscape contractor to come work on it.

And then somebody has to come in, design it, fix it, put it back together, and it's never less money.

Yeah, and it's tough, too, because unlike I would say, building a home where people are used to that and there's a pretty, pretty consistent process out there, living in many markets is still, I would say, somewhat unregulated, and there are very few what I would call outdoor living, general contractors.

So even though you might have designers, a big challenge for us is also finding ways to streamline it where, you know, as you might have 10 GCs on a.

Or 10 subcontractors on a project, plumber, electrician, mason, pool guy, all those different facets of the trades, and they all have to be coordinated.

You got to make sure it all works together so that.

That part's a little bit of a challenge.

And again, we've got tools we're trying to help with on that.

Design's a big piece of that.

But for sure, I mean, they.

So you.

I would say you see this big gap where people.

There's an expectation where they want these spaces, but they aren't easy to get.

They're complex.

There's a lot of choices that need to be made with materials and all the above.

And so I can't stress enough, as you said, planning and design is absolutely critical to getting that put together around the house.

We'll be right Back with Joe Rabwein, the VP of design at Old Castle apg.

We are just getting started.

Let's sound that banner keeps us breathing.

Welcome back to the around the House show.

This hour is brought to you by our friends at Monument Grills.

Go get your new quality barbecue@monumentgrills.com now let's rejoin the conversation between Eric and Joe Rabboin, the VP of design at Old Castle apg.

Let's get back to the show.

No question.

And I think one of the biggest things that people miss as well out there when the project's all said and done is don't forget the lighting.

The lighting can take that project and put a 10x on the end of it.

As far as how it looks in the evening and how you use it as well.

Yeah, no, for sure.

And we.

I hear this often, right.

We don't do lighting.

It's.

Oh, man, it.

The homeowner may not even think about it because they're like, oh, I have a porch light.

And then they realize it's like a spotlight when they're sitting out there.

And to retrofit any those spaces, that's an absolute nightmare.

If you're not offering lighting as part of this, man, you're doing your customer a disservice for sure.

Saying, I have an outlet on the back of the house by the faucet, so I'm good on the power.

Yeah, exactly.

No one's putting.

No one's putting power strips outside to run their outdoor living.

You have to deal with it all at once.

And again, it's so easy to run cable when the landscapers are out there working on stuff before they have all the stuff in.

So you're not digging stuff up, tunneling under, edging, whatever you're doing.

Yeah, just do it on the front end as part of the plan.

And it's so much easier to.

Than to make it a weekend project or having a professional out for a week doing it when you're trying to get it done correctly.

Yeah.

And I think the other thing I like to talk to designers about or contractors as well is like, you really, you need to do a lot more on the front end with.

With asking questions.

Right.

Things like what how many people will use in this space?

How often do you use it?

What are you going to use?

What are you trying to accomplish with the space?

And then even dig into what type of furniture are you envisioning?

Like, people might be thinking, I want a big, deep seating sectional and I want a farm table that seats 12.

And yeah, you go through the whole thing and then you design.

Someone designs and they can only put a bistro table there.

I've seen this happen so many times.

So you have to understand what they're thinking or at least ask the question.

And they, if they don't know, dig into it a little bit because it'll ultimately drive what that project will look like and how it'll be sized and shaped and all that.

But you're so right because foundationally there's a post coming off that cover, right?

That's right.

Where somebody wants to put that L shape exterior sectional couch because they didn't think about which way that was going to face and now they're in trouble because it's broken up and they got to come up with a different furniture choice.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

Yeah.

That is cool.

Lots to consider.

There is.

And what are you seeing in trends right now, Joe?

There's so many things that are happening and so many things firing off.

If you were going to say for 2025, what are you seeing out there as far as the expansion of this and all the beauty that's happening in the backyard or even front yard space?

Yeah, that's a great question.

I something that we study a lot and I try to connect with.

And I think I'll go back to the beginning with the wellness trend.

I think I would say this is a long term macro trend where again, people are realizing that these are important spaces and they're thinking about them differently.

And really what that leads to is if I think about this space as something that I use on a daily basis and I'm hoping to achieve a better quality of life and overall health and better health and well being and also function.

It's radically different than thinking about, I need a place that I can party and entertain six times in the summer.

Totally different value proposition.

So some of the things, the trends that come off of that I would say all these are interconnected to some degree is when you think about some of the fundamental principles of biophilic design.

Well, number one would probably be really that connection physically and visually to the exterior.

You mentioned before where someone had a patio door or a window.

Right.

And so thinking about, like, how do we create a space that helps draw people out visually?

So it might be where you position a fireplace or a water feature or a pool and how it's viewed from the inside, but then how do I access that space more seamlessly?

And you think about zero edge transitions, even nano walls, large French doors, retractable screens, or even pass throughs where you have an indoor kitchen that opens up a window and all of a sudden there's someone on the outside and there's a bar there.

Right?

So you have this seamless, flowing transition between.

I think yes, some of those things can be expensive, but a lot of that also is just a design choice.

And I think it's interesting to talk to other designers on the inside.

Oftentimes those choices, again, they don't necessarily cost any more money.

It's just thinking of, hey, I'm going to build an indoor kitchen.

Where should I put the outdoor kitchen?

And by the way, this homeowner is very interested in growing an herb garden.

Or maybe they have a brick oven like you said, and, or like to grill.

And maybe I would put a salsa garden here in a raised bed or a vertical garden.

And just thinking about it in a much more holistic view, from a holistic viewpoint.

And the other part of that I would say is thinking through what, how can I connect this space to.

Because this is something I would say the majority is leaning toward and certainly Millennials and Gen Z's are, is how do I make a bigger impact or less of an impact to the natural environment.

And so that may be sustainable product, recycled content, but it also a big shift is thinking of where can I add a pollinator garden, how can I do some stormwater capture, how can I improve biodiversity in this area?

Or how can I draw butterflies into my backyard where you start to immerse all the senses and they're thinking about all of it connected, right?

Instead of again going back to what it used to be, where I just want a place to have a killer barbecue this weekend, that's a big part of it too.

But the value proposition is way different.

And people, if you're going to use a space every day, especially if you're in a pretty, a nice climate that's fairly year round, you're going to, you're willing to invest more in thinking about, I'm going to, I'm going to be out here every day.

I might put an outdoor shower and I'm going to do yoga out here.

I'm going to work from home.

So I need a WI fi booster, I need some shade because it's hot right here and I'm going to be out here during the day.

All those things start to change.

And again, if you're not thinking about this as a designer, I always say this isn't about manipulation, this is about understanding your client and giving them the best possible environment.

For their life.

Right.

And how they could.

You can help them prove their life.

And if you come in with that attitude and you're sincere about it, that's something you can't fake, man.

I.

The contractors who are embracing this, designers who are have so much work that you start talking about, hey, I understand you asked for a patio.

I want to talk about health and wellness and what you hope to achieve with this space.

Totally different conversation.

The homeowners.

What are you talking about?

I asked you to put pavers in.

I understand that you asked me that, but I want to tell you a little bit about what we know about the importance of being outside and how this space can impact you, your children, your neighbor, your family.

And, man, I've had this conversation many times over the last few years, and people get emotional about it because most people, I don't think, understand why they want this space, but it's absolutely intrinsic.

It's fundamental in our DNA that we are drawn out to these outdoor spaces.

And I think when you start to connect the dots, it seems so obvious.

Right.

Like you said.

Yeah.

I'm outside, I see this bird.

I.

And I feel the wind.

I feel the sun on my face like the muse.

Everything just, everything feels better.

And so I think when you dig into that, the conversation then becomes so different.

Like, we.

We can talk about product later.

And I realize I work for a manufacturer and that's important to us, but product should be way down on the discussion list.

You need to solve these first, and that'll help solve that later on.

Yeah.

One of my favorite tricks as a kitchen and bath designer is we were doing that kitchen dining room or whatever, and the door went out to the patio from there.

And we were doing an outdoor space as well, or they were even planning an outdoor space, and maybe they had a covered area was to bring the tile that was in the kitchen, if it would work outside, to bring that through the nanowall or door system.

Yep.

And take it out into that entry out there to make it inviting.

So it seems like it's seamless, that outside still on the inside.

And then as it went out into the elements, you could transition over into a complimentary or color matching decking product.

And it just looks absolutely stunning.

And technology these days and the selection of materials has made that so much easier to do.

And it's just so darn inviting when it all makes sense.

Yeah.

And it's interesting.

I've, as you said, when you get those space, the ones that are done really well, you'll be in those spaces, I've been to events and I've been to people's homes that have them.

And as you have and you think all of a sudden you realize you're like, wait a minute, I'm not actually in the house anymore.

I'm actually out on a porch, but I feel like I'm in the kitchen.

And those insane.

That blurring of the lines is really think about how engaging that is right where or if you're in the house, you're like, what is going on out there?

And it pulls people out of there, gets us off our screens, off our devices, and we're out engaging with the natural world, having conversations, food, and all of the above.

It's what it's really what life is about at the end of the day, is trying to create a space that fosters those types of interactions, which I think is what really is what's driving people to want these types of spaces.

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Go get your new quality barbecue@monumentgrills.com now let's rejoin the conversation between Eric and Joe Rabboin, the VP of design at Old Castle apg.

Let's get back to the show.

I'd be on page two of the list of things that we could be talking about, but you guys have the whole outdoor space covered, which is cool.

Yeah.

When we look at what's interesting, again, if you go back to our history was primarily hardscape masonry.

And now that we're in all the other pieces, the reality is, and this is what led to a lot of this is most projects have they may have a deck on part of it, they may have a stone wall, natural stone steps, all the above.

And but a lot of these projects, people, from a design perspective, they also really prefer, I would say, mixed materials.

And number one, we're making sure, as I mentioned, that all these products kind of work together and that we're thinking about color palettes and design and shape and all that texture, all that kind of holistically.

But we're also looking at solutions that.

For instance, there's a product called Instadeck, which is a revolutionary product.

It's actually designed.

It's the same thickness as a paver and it's designed to be laid on the same substrate, same base prep as a paver would be.

The cool part about that is you can now get a grade flush level deck, look right at grade level.

And you can even use it around a pool where it's technically permeable because the water would flow through the joints, the spacers.

But you can mix and match pavers as well.

So you can bring that look of that deck right down into the landscape.

And if you want to, you could blend it with pavers and create patterns and whatnot.

But it.

That's one example of we're just looking at our materials differently.

And a solution like that.

You've been in construction like to do something like that without that system, man, you're just.

You're talking about a little bit of engineering and probably had a. Gonna have some issues with it down the road at some point with building a structure underneath, trying to anchor it all the above.

And not creating my own second swimming pool under my deck that my winter rains have a place to go.

It's like.

Exactly.

Oh yeah, it would be like just another swamp pool underneath there.

So that would be horrible.

But that changes everything.

To give you that seamless transition where you could come down those stairs and transition into that and really make some really cool design features with that.

Yeah, absolutely.

So then also thinking through, as you mentioned, lighting and making sure we have the different lighting components to support that entire space from the deck all the way down the fencing and rail piece, that's huge.

Different railing styles.

We have a new cable rail, elevation cable rail, which is a pre strung cable rail, which you basically just open it up and you tighten it down.

And it's got like this pulley system so you don't have to go and tighten every individual cable up.

These are examples of.

We're trying to make sure what we're doing is also easier to install.

Not just beautiful, not on point with design, which those things are key.

But we also know that that labor is a challenge.

Right.

And so our pool of labor is probably not going to get any larger.

This may in fact may shrink.

So we got to figure out solutions to improve the speed of it.

And that's an example of that.

Insta deck, again is, I would say, another example of that.

So we're looking through that lens so we see design, installation, color, texture, all those things working and in unison to make sure we're reinventing the way we approach it.

Yeah, I love railing options because so many people get done with planning the deck and they go, now I got to do the railing.

And then they cringe because they know what they got to spend on railing to get something cool.

And if you can do something that saves on the labor that really helps that project get off the ground.

Yeah, for sure.

The other thing I would say is also a macro trend is that the yards, American yards are shrinking like radically as and sheesh.

Anybody who's been around a big city can see that.

Right.

Or jamming as many houses they can in a small lot.

And so it's making us rethink product design and even how this, what an outdoor living space means.

We're looking at it through the lens of an outdoor living space.

Might be someone's balcony living in an apartment building all the way down to 10, 10 by 20 foot area that's off the side of an alley or on the side yard or the front yard.

And so we also then are thinking if you have a very narrow space, for instance a 12 inch deep block doesn't work.

You need something narrower.

And so what does that look like?

And so our products, like our Art forms modular panel system were born out of that idea is taking a relatively thin product and basically bolting it together with stainless hardware to alleviate the need to build a really heavy gravity based planter seat, wall bench, kitchen, that type of thing.

So all these things cross over.

But yeah, I mean looking, stepping back, going, what does an outdoor living space consist of?

Where are they at?

We also see a big shift towards multi family.

People live in multi family, whether condos or apartment complexes still want an outdoor living space.

Right.

So those are more community oriented.

It really does affect product design and overall design.

And we're looking through consistently through that lens as well as the commercial piece.

Yeah, it's interesting.

And to jump on that.

My girlfriend's got a beautiful townhouse and it's 72 inches of depth off the back wall back there of space.

It's nice and wide, there's a lot of space there.

But there's a six foot fence that you're in a box.

So design wise, how do you make this look with a limit of space and access?

Yeah, no, that's for sure.

That's exactly where we're at.

And it's funny because I think even a lot of the contracting and design community will just write off certain areas like that.

Well, they don't have the half acre, one acre lot that we were used to.

But those same people, a lot of cases, I would say they have the disposable income to do it, they have the will to do it.

And so you may need to get creative with using angular design.

Maybe there's built ins, there's vertical gardens, there's trellises.

Right.

You're creating a hybrid space perhaps.

Or maybe you need to shift the whole outdoor living space to the front yard.

And you're seeing this happen with a lot of new construction, which was the original outdoor living space, by the way, if you go back far enough.

Amen.

But what is interesting, because I think you can still achieve a lot in a very small space.

And I always, I related back to indoor.

If you imagine if I had a 10 by 12 foot dining room, for instance, like, that's a pretty decent sized dining room, right?

Sure.

But a lot of people in their mind are like, I don't have enough space when they have a detached garage.

And you actually measure it.

It's 25ft from the house and the lot's 50ft wide.

And you're like, you realize you've got over a thousand square feet back here.

And they don't because they're thinking their mind of this big, beautiful, expansive yard.

But when you start designing it, you're like, wow, I can really do a lot in this space.

So part of it is on us, I think, to inspire and show people that through our marketing, through some of the design tools we have, through our companies like Yardsen.

And we're doing that.

But I think it's just a shifting mindset of how do we meet the consumer, where they're at today with the current trends that are happening with construction overall.

And that's a big one that we're focused on, man.

No kidding.

And it's so amazing when people get the chance to rethink.

And again, that's where bringing that professional is.

Because sometimes as homeowners and even as contractors that are just out there that are maybe doing that remodel, but need to address the outdoor space as part of the project.

Sometimes people are, you're standing in the middle of the forest and you can't see the trees.

Sometimes bringing that fresh eyed professional that does this for a living is the smartest way to get that project off the ground.

And planning is always the key to success with any outdoor project.

From where I come from.

Yeah.

No, 100%.

Yeah.

So, Joe, what have we not missed?

Because we're running out of time.

What have we not talked on here?

What have we missed again?

We could go for hours and go down some pretty deep rabbit holes, but what else have we not talked about?

Real quick as we wrap this up.

Yeah, we covered a lot of ground, literally.

And I would just reiterate from our perspective again, that I think, and this is a worldwide macro trend with all construction is this idea of this nature in built world connection.

And how do we redesign our.

The places we live, work and play to.

To better foster that connection with the outdoor world.

And again, a lot of it's visual, a lot of it's connection, a lot of it's functional and design related.

It's all related.

But I would say for those who are listening, if you're in this space and you're a designer, you're a builder, you're a homeowner, dig in and do some research.

And we're going to be publishing some things throughout the coming year on some of the data that's out there.

But I can't stress enough.

I think the outdoor space is an antidote for a lot of the issues that plague our society in a way.

Right.

Where I think we all know we're addicted to screens.

We all know that certain things aren't quite right.

We're all, I think, longing for authentic experiences and relationships and natural experiences.

And the spaces that we build and whether we really understand it or not, are creating a vehicle for people to have those experiences.

And if you start from there, man, I just think the whole narrative changes and I only see upside from this point on for our industry and even beyond.

And so I think understanding that learning that and then sharing that with your clients is absolutely huge and will be transformational.

Amen.

And if people are going to spend some screen time, they should be on your website designing and planning that space so they can escape it.

So where's the best place for them to do that?

Yeah, I would say probably for out there living in General, I'd say belgard.com, moistureshield.com or you can go right to oldcastleapg as well.com and you can see all of our brands on there.

Yeah.

That's a great website, by the way.

It's got a great umbrella to really guide you into the products you might be looking at.

Oldcastle apg, that's a great place to find stuff.

Yeah, absolutely.

To link into other sites and you can go down that rabbit hole and see all the stuff you never knew we made.

Exactly.

Joe, thanks for taking the time today, brother.

I appreciate it.

It's great bringing a professional like yourself that's got the experience and the knowledge and sharing with the audience out there so people can make the right decisions and get that backyard living or even front yard living if you're going old school.

Yeah.

For your dreams and get that built correctly.

Thanks for taking the time, man.

I appreciate it, Eric.

It's been a pleasure.

And I look forward to connecting somebody sometime again in the future.

We'll make sure to make that happen.

I'm Eric G. Thanks for tuning in to around the house.

Thank you for tuning in to the first hour of the around the house show.

We will see you next time.