they learn how to walk without the government, they learn everything, I mean, he's speaking two languages fluently, he's now learning English, but because he wants to do it, not because I push him to do anything, so unschooling is a lot about trust, we need to break that stigma of we need to be separated from our kids because I think most of the kids really enjoy being with mom and dad, see what they are up to learning and all these things.

there are out people out there who really question what we do as homeschoolers. And then when you say then also unschooling on top of that, they're like, what the heck are you doing then?

think about unschooling as discovering your own soul path the more I was able to let go, the more he became creative, outgoing, powerful in his way to explore. So it's a lot of work, a lot of work, but it's worth it.

Welcome Bitcoin homeschoolers. I'm really excited to tell you about today's episode telly and I had the opportunity to sit down with Alex. Alex is putting in the proof of work when it comes to unschooling. She's the host of the podcast called wild life. The unschooling podcast. And we got into it. We didn't always agree. It was a lot of fun. And I think because of that, you're actually going to get a lot more out of this. So sit back and enjoy.

So hi, Alex. Welcome to Bitcoin homeschoolers. We are so excited to have you on the show. We're going to spend a lot of time talking about unschooling today. So welcome.

Thank you so much for having me.

So

glad you're here. Let's start by just diving a little bit into your background. What brought you to homeschooling your child? Can

That is a good question. Um, it started the very first second when I hold him fresh, uh, hatched from the egg. Um, I had the feeling like, okay, this dude is, is not going to go to school. I just had it in my, in my gut somehow, but I didn't really believe. what I was feeling. So the time went on and he went to a democratic kindergarten in Berlin, where there were no rules whatsoever. And the kindergarten teachers really prepped me in what is coming next in, in your journey and your kid's journey. And I was always like, I don't see him in school yet. I don't see it. And I was like, maybe in a couple of years or something like that. But then eventually the time came when he needed to go to school in Germany. There's a legal age from something like that. And, um, yeah, we visited 34 schools, I think very free schools, like democratic schools, uh, forest schools, all these different things. And with every school, there was something that he didn't like. And he, the, the sentence he said the most was. Is this slavery? I want to go home. And after like so many schools we visited, I was like, dude, I feel the same. I don't want to stay in that country that I don't want to be in. The weather's shit. The people are always grumpy. The school system sucks. And seriously, I want to see the world because we were used to travel a lot. I was still studying and I was able to be in Berlin three months, then travel. And I didn't want to. Give this, give this up for sure, because it felt right for me to discover the world and I then had the crazy idea to, uh, how about we leave Germany? I didn't have a plan yet. I was just very sure I don't want to go to jail for not bringing my kid to school every morning. So I was like, okay, let's sell everything we, we have, let's give everything away and let's start traveling. And we traveled for quite some time. And then I discovered, okay, if I keep on traveling, I can avoid schooling at all. And then I started homeschooling because I'm a German teacher. And I thought like, okay, now he has, has to learn how to read and all these things. And my kid was always so, um, frustrated with me because I was pushing him and pushing. And then I. Had a deep talk with myself and I felt that, okay, I need to let go and let go a bit, a little bit more. And as there was no authority coming to me, telling me, Oh, now he has to go to school. I was able to really, um, take a deep look and say myself, what do I want for him? And, uh, then I came across that idea of unschooling. I thought I invented it, but then I met other families that are unschooling. And I was like, dude, this is the thing I love. Um, I love the raw sense of, of living. I like it. I like this, uh, deepness of discovering yourself and everything. And I thought, okay, this is it. I'm going to do that. And I'm going to do it. Um, way, no matter what people say. And I got so much backlash from my family. You can imagine, but, um, this is how we ended up there. Like no plan, just discovering yourself, the world exploring.

I love it. I love it. Tell you, can I go first? I know you have a lot of questions, but okay, so Alex, one of the things that's on my mind is the podcast we did the episode prior to this. Tali and I were attempting to answer questions that we had gotten where someone would say like in a, in Fountain or something else, they'd say it, it's, it's all well and good for you guys, but what if you live in a country where homeschooling is illegal? And then there was also what Tali and I talked about. And even if you're in the U S with the way things are with inflation, et cetera, a lot of families, they need both incomes to survive and homeschooling is not an option for them, but the principles. So, the principles that we're talking about,

they

they do apply. And when you and I first spoke, you had a couple of ideas for people. And since Tali and I were coming at it from perspective, kind of a theoretical perspective, I would love someone who has actually been there, actually went through it to give their perspective on when you're in a, when you're in a circumstance. And then I think you also had a couple of recommendations for other people who might be in the circumstance that you were in prior. I'd love to hear your, your thoughts on that.

This is illegal, and for

Yeah. So first of all, with this, uh, income thing, I'm a single mom. So if I can do it, you can do it. Everyone has a gift that, uh, they can share online. Every single one of us is, is incredibly gifted. And I need to say. Even though I was still studying and I had to be in university, I just took my kid. He was baby when I, I think he was two weeks old when I needed to go back to university and he was with me all the time. So we need to break that stigma of we need to be separated from our kids because I think most of the kids really enjoy being with mom and dad, see what they are up to learning and all these things. I was studying languages, Arabic, Hindi, Hebrew, and um, a couple of. Um, like his first sentences were actually in Arabic because he was surrounded by Arabic speaking people all the time. So with this income thing, you can do it. You can do it. It's hard, but you can do it. I didn't sleep for years because I was working at night. I was watching my kid at daytime, still studying, traveling, all of that. But if you really want to do it, You're going to do it because there's no other way. I never felt like, uh, I had a choice. I was just doing what was necessary to, uh, keep my kid in safety. Um, and this other thing, yeah, um, I can speak for German, for Germany. It's, it's a very, let's say, hairy situation over there because you end up in jail probably if you, Unschool your kid or homeschool. This idea is not really known. And if you do it, you're already like on the list of terrorist, uh, people, I don't know. So, um, there's actually a thing. There are certain countries around Germany that are way more relaxed when it comes to homeschool. And like I said, France, Poland, I think as well. And if you're living close to the border, you can just send your kids to school there and don't send them to school. You know what I mean? So there's always a thing you can, yeah, you can dance around that stuff. And of course you, if you are like, if they get you, if they, if they discover what you're doing, then you have a problem. But in the end, I don't know how, I know so many families that are doing this since, I don't know, years and they are doing really good in that. And there's a general thing I can recommend. It's, it's, uh, an international school from the U. S. It's called West River Academy and they cover All of that legal stuff worldwide, almost worldwide, I think, and this is what I can recommend. If you still feel like you need legal protection, then just onboard your kids there. They don't have to do any online stuff. They can, but they don't have to. And it's really the, for me, it looks like the perfect option to legalize what you're doing. And they give you all the records, transcripts, everything you need for the government. And on the other side, it's like a huge community of unschooling families that are connected through that school. And it's giving you power and energy to keep going with that. And because it's not always easy and we need that community, I guess. So this is not only for your kids. It's also for yourself.

that makes me more bullish because obviously we're, Tali and I are not spending a lot of time in Germany. We just hear, Hey, this is illegal. And for you to say that many people are doing this, many people are doing it quite successfully. That makes me feel really bullish and that there are resources out there like you're describing. I think that's really helpful. Tali,

I just want to ask you to expand a little bit on the concept of unschooling. I think that's a really confusing concept for people. They when they think unschooling, they think you're just letting your kid do literally whatever and you're not being responsible. So can you explain a little bit? Okay,

Yeah, it can mean anything and everything. So, um, unschooling doesn't mean your kid can't go to school. Unschooling means your kid has the choice to do whatever feels right in that moment. So if my kid tells me tomorrow, okay, mom, I want to go to school, then, um, Okay, do your thing, but unschooling on the very root is to set your kid free to to let him her discover whatever feels right for them. I always think about unschooling as discovering your own soul path because we all came here. With a reason, with a mission, with a vision, and this set your, this is giving your kid the opportunity to really dive into whatever this human being needs to do on this planet, and of course there are natural rules like everywhere. Nature has rules. So have I, because I'm a human being and we are living together. And if he's running around and screaming all day, of course, this is not happening in my household, because I set the boundaries for that. So I see it as, um, I let loose a lot and I try to trust my kid as much as possible in whatever is right for him. Of course, if he's like gaming six months, 10 hours a day, this is something that I need to address because then I see there's an imbalance, but this is something they are, um, I think they have the right to express and to discover that for themselves as well and do these mistakes. And I don't want to compare it to homeschooling or anything, but we don't have no schedule at all. I don't buy books that he needs to go through or anything like that. I do buy the stuff that he needs. That's the finish line. And if I don't have the money, then there is no stuff. And maybe he has to work for it. Maybe he has to. I don't know, ask his grandma, his auntie. I don't know. So he needs to figure out how to do stuff. Actually. If you need something really expensive, that's not on me then. Um, so I see him like he's a, yeah, like almost grown up person. He is self self sovereign. I would say he is doing whatever feels right for him. And if he needs help, I'm there, but I'm never like, Hey, dude, check this out. You need to learn. Sometimes I discover stuff that I liked as a kid very, very much. And that I know that helped me, um, widening my perception of reality and in the world in general. And I'm like, Hey dude, I love that. Maybe you will love it too. And most of the times he's like, nah, that's so stupid. So in general, unschooling for me is, um, trust. Um, self responsible living on both sides on every side of the family and just going with the flow, really going with the flow and de schooling yourself because all this programming I had, I was putting it on my kid because I wasn't able to unschool yet. I was still like, Oh my God, he's missing out. I'm failing him. But after now, I don't know, six years of unschooling, I can say he learned how to read. By himself, one day he was just able to read this is how it's, I think, always been, I mean, they learn how to walk without the government, they learn everything, I mean, he's speaking two languages fluently, he's now learning English, but because he wants to do it, not because I push him to do anything, so unschooling is a lot about trust, letting go and seeing the world through your kid's eyes and learning a completely new dimension of what is out there.

Okay,

so as a homeschooling mom, and I didn't unschool, I was probably the other extreme of that spectrum. So I'm going to challenge you with a few questions that I think a lot of new homeschoolers would have about unschooling. So you mentioned that if your son wanted to spend 10 hours a day playing video games six months in a row, you would then step in and say, Hey, this is not productive. If, so my question to you is, if your son says, you know what, I am just not interested in mathematics, I don't care that 1 plus 1 equals 2, I don't care about multiplication tables, are you saying that because you're an unschooler, you would allow him to graduate high school or enter adulthood and never learn mathematics?

I couldn't care less if he, if he wants to learn maths, but they learn because they need it in life, you know, this is the funny part of it, even though I don't care, the world is caring because they get feedback from the world. And if they are gaming sooner or later, they need to calculate certain things. And it's way more complex. than what I was expecting him to, to be involved with at this point of, um, at his age. So, um, I don't care if he's interested. He needs to do it because he needs to do certain things. And this gives me the relief of, it's not a really, I'm not pushing him. It's, it's a need. It's a necessity for him to go to certain, yeah, worlds, digital worlds. He needs to.

I'm curious on that. So he, he needs it for the, he's playing with whoever he's playing with online. It's very social as I understand it. I'm not a video game guy. And how do you support that? Do you say here are,

I

I mean, it doesn't have to be textbooks or YouTube or whatever, but are you pointing him towards. Algebra, or something else and say, here are the things you can choose from, or are you literally just saying, no, no, no, go figure it out. Like, how is he, like, when, when that experience happens, like the math experience, what is your next step to help him with that?

So maybe I can give you an example. One of the things I remember, he was figuring out something in Minecraft. He needs to push something. This is. So many times to get this and that stuff, but it was some complex, uh, relay, like I D I don't really, I don't really know. It wasn't like, uh, I push that button one time and I get one block of something. It was a bit more complex. And he was like, how can I figure that out? And I was like, okay, dude, you have a Lego, so grab your Lego and just. make it reality, like physical reality. And then you, you grab, you, you understand the complexity of what you're doing there, actually in the digital world, because you can always come back to the physical world and apply it to stuff you can actually feel. Because I think feeling things. Uh, and bonding with these things for me personally is always a better way to learn something if I have it in front of me and not only in my head. So every time he's coming to me with something, I just try to listen to my intuition and, um, I don't really have a recipe. So if he's coming to me with something, I don't have no clue whatsoever. I'm like, okay, you know what I think. Park could know about that or something like that. So there's a huge community around us with so many beautiful, intelligent people. If I don't know, then someone else knows. And most of the times he don't even ask, he he's figuring it out. And then he's presenting me, uh, the result. And sometimes he's sharing with me his, his journey to the result.

So what I hear is, I'm thinking, I'm comparing what you're describing to what I think of as a public school. Public school, I think of, it's very Directional, the teacher or some authority is going to say, here's how, what your next steps are. What you're describing is you're going to need to figure out what, how to teach yourself and learn how to learn. And, and he can now apply that to the next problem without even asking you, right? So he's like, well, who do I know? Is it my grandfather? Is it somebody else who knows his subject, but he's learning how to learn. And.

help himself. Would

that, would that be an accurate, uh, way of describing that?

Yeah, I think pretty much.

I have more pushback.

Keep going, sweetie. Keep going. This is going to be Um, yeah,

it on. No.

the concept of having

having a

accelerating, learning something because they've done it before, they've been there before versus you fumbling around. Um, and I get the idea that in the struggle of trying to solve your own problem, you, you learn, but there's also on the flip side of that, you can save a lot of time and energy if someone has done it and can teach it to you. And so. I guess my struggle is just in the trust part that you seem really comfortable with, probably because of my own upbringing, but, um, having, having witnessed the development of our four kids and the, the vastly different personalities that they have in terms of self motivation, exploration, etc. I guess I just really struggle with the concept that just letting them go

is

okay.

Well, I'm really interested in this, I'm going to kind of watch you guys go back and forth on these different, these different takes so we can, we can all learn, but I, what I'm hearing in this discussion is not that there's not a coach, it's, it's more that there's a coach when they need the coach, sort of like when the student is ready, the teacher presents himself like we've talked about before. That's what I hear as opposed to, I'm letting my kid outside, and in 18 years, you know, he's on his own. Like, I'm not hearing that. Anyway, so

I understand. I understand that he's not being neglected because you know, you know what, you know that stigma that people have. With homeschoolers, they lock their kids in the room and they call themselves homeschoolers kind of thing and so, so sort of along the same line, if people think on schooling, it's almost like, oh, these are just lazy parents who don't want to do anything, just let their kids do whatever they want, you know, I'm And Playing the devil's advocate because there are out people out there who really question what we do as homeschoolers. And then when you say homeschooling on and then also unschooling on top of that, they're like, what the heck are you doing then? You know what I'm saying?

True, true. But you know what? How am I learning? Um, so I'm surrounded by a beautiful community that is, um, really into learning, like, Evolving when it comes to permaculture to, uh, healthy food and all these things. So here's a huge community and everyone has a gift and they are always sharing it in workshops and so on. And so this is natural for me at least if I don't know something and I want to know I'm asking a friend or i'm asking someone who is actually Really good in it and is, uh, doing workshops or whatever, you know what I mean? So what I see is that my kid is free to do whatever and that he has a huge pool of coaches that are there for him. I mean, he is, for example, really good in MMA. So I can't teach him that because I'm afraid of him because he's so big now and if he's punching me, it really hurts. So a couple of years ago, I told him, dude, we can't fight anymore. If you like to fight, you're going to have to go to the boxing club and he's doing it and he's enjoying his time there. So there, he has a very strict, um, environment there because you can imagine learning how to fight is not, uh, how you learn. I don't know how to set up a Minecraft. Serve at home with your mom. It's something else. So he has this broad, uh, diversity of different coaches with different learning styles and all of that. And he loves it. He loves it. He loves the strict ones. He loves the hippy dippy ones. So he has actually a huge pool of people who really feel responsible for the kids that are here. And that I like the most because the people here, a lot of families are unschooling or homeschooling, but a lot of them are just unschooling. Um, and they just have a different approach to kids. They see them as, yeah, very grown, very, um, mature and very Yeah, I don't know. It's very different from how I was seen a child from my, my surroundings. So, um, it's not so much I'm being the lazy parent. It's more or less a lot of organization. Like, where are the kids now? Where do they want to go? Who can deliver what? And these kind of things. Most of the stuff they are, like, organizing by themselves, but still, there's someone You can't go anywhere by foot here. It's a very small island, and you have to drive by car everywhere. So, uh, it's always Some, someone who needs to be there, who needs to be with them and these kinds of things. So it's, I think the opposite of being lazy and locking them up. It's about really getting active, uh, having this network, having this community, caring for the community and the other people, because you have to give something back. My child has to give something back as well. You know, it's not like, it's not like he has to give something back, like me, I'm a grown, but the kids as well, they're, um, really integrated in that society here. So it is, I think, really the opposite of locked up kids. It's more or less like, when are they going to come? Come back home. I have no clue. They're always on the run. They're always on the go. They have plans and they have beautiful plans. And sometimes, yeah, they're just sitting around sometimes two or three days in a row. And they're just painting and, and drawing and these kinds of things. But I see that as very, um, Yeah, it's a necessity as well. Um, so lazy, nobody here is lazy. What I saw is the more I was able to let go, the more he became creative, outgoing, powerful in his way to explore. So it's a lot of work, a lot of work, but it's worth it.

Okay. I just got to get, make sure I got the okay from Tali that I can keep, keep going on that one. I, I, I feel like if we were together, we would be talking for many hours on each of these things, but there's so many, so many things we should at least touch on. Another one on the list today that I wanted to get your point of view on is something that, that said bunny is very passionate about, and that is the parent child bond. And if you could comment on. And I'd love to get your, if you could share your experience, anything that you're willing to share, um, about what this experience has been in terms of a parent child bond.

So I need to say, um, I was very young when I had my child. I was 23 and I was still super programmed. I mean, I went to one of the strictest schools in Germany. It was a private something. Then I studied for 10 years and I really did my job great. So I had a lot of programming, a lot of stress and a lot of, yeah, very German way of living. Yeah. I'm going to get up at six naturally. Why not? So, um, when I learned that you can just skip all of that and be a very, very happy kid, and I had a very, let's say, stressful childhood. So it was completely new for me to discover what does a happy child need? How does it look like? What does it feel like to be that happy? How does it feel like to be the mom that provides the happy space? Um, so what I learned and what I would. Maybe do different now as I would be so much more radical right from the beginning. It would be always about What does my kid need and not one single second about what does society want from my kid or me as a mom? I would like to delete that from my past because uh, since I was able to let go more more and more the relationship between me and my kid got Deeper and deeper. It was always super deep because we were, I was so, so close and I did stuff very differently than normal. Yeah. I don't know. Uh, people maybe. So what I can say is having this much trust in your child, your child is giving you that trust back for sure. And the respect you put in, they, they, uh, you get it back. And what I really love is that my kid. Knows that this is a secure home. He is funny. He, he's able to cry. He's able to be grumpy and these kinds of things. He's really able to let all these emotions out. I wasn't able to do that as a kid. So what I see is unschooling gave me the perfect opportunity to really see the raw human being, the soul that came here to discover life. And I'm just providing whatever he needs to, to go that way. And of course there are struggles within every relationship in with yourself, with himself, each other, all these things. But, um, I, I S I think I can see that very. And I'm very aware and I like that I see every detail of that relationship growing and deepening with every day practically. So for me, a game changer for myself as well. It changed me completely as a, as a human being completely.

Talia, maybe you can comment on too, because that was one of your, I feel like you and Alex had a similar experience when you first looked at your first child. You're like, I want, I'm the one who's raising this person that I'm, I'm the one that's going to have the relationship with this, this other person.

I did. I mean. Hmm. I held our first baby. I was originally going to go back to work and I decided I didn't want her being raised by somebody else. One big difference though in my experience was I still remember vividly a letter that I wrote to our first born when she was born. And I have a Chinese background and you know the Confucius. Philosophy of

the, the

parents are absolutely and 100 percent responsible for how their kids turn out. So I felt 100 percent responsible for exactly how she turns out. How much of her potential she expresses in her life was up to me. So I wrote her this letter. And I wrote in the letter that I hope I can do my very best to bring out to I bring out her potential because I was the one responsible. Now, actually, it's interesting because I was talking to our girls recently about that and I said, you know, with what I know now, I would have done things completely differently. I would have written a different letter. Because I realized now that it's not my job to bring out their potential. They have the potential that they can express themselves. So I wish I had known these principles that Alex is expressing so eloquently. And I think her son is very, very lucky that she discovered these principles so early. Our kids endured at least the first half

of

or first two thirds of the homeschooling journey was very traditional because I really felt that if they couldn't read very well, it was my fault if they couldn't read. Couldn't do math very well. It was my fault and I would have failed them if they didn't meet all of these requirements that society has listed as a capable human being and so The reason I'm challenging you is because I believe that there are a lot of parents out there Today, thinking that they are 100 percent responsible for bringing out their children's potential. That's why I'm challenging her today so that we can learn more, you know, from this point of view. And I think there is a balance as well. You're, you're letting him be free and explore and choose his own path, but you're also there to guide gently. So it's not like it's a completely hands off kind of thing. It didn't sound like to me anyway, um, you are gentle guiding. Whereas The way that I was taught growing up with a very traditional Chinese background is you told your kids what they should and shouldn't do and what they should like and shouldn't like. Like, everything is prescribed for them, but that's our way of expressing love because we're responsible for their success.

I, like this a lot,

yeah, I actually, I like the, I like having two different points of view because if I'm a listener, I'm, I'm just eavesdropping on these two different perspectives and I can pick whichever one I think relates to whatever my circumstances are and I think that's a really good way of bringing out the the core principles the first principle ideas of What it's like to to basically self custody the education. So so, um Yeah, I'm enjoying, I'm enjoying the back and forth.

add also that what I'm seeing now in hindsight, right? Because we finished this journey and you're still in the middle of it. When I look back and I think through. what our approach and how the kids turned out. And I'm specifically only addressing the emotion side because intellectually, academically, skill wise, I mean, that's ever changing. Like you said, you're still learning today. We're still learning today. The knowledge part it's ever changing, but emotion side that stays with you. And what I see is that when we tell our kids What they should and should not do throughout their childhood, especially the younger part of their childhood They learn to distrust their own feelings and their own decisions and their own desires and that part I wish I could say back so that respect part like actually not respect You were mentioning the word trust that you trust him and therefore he trusts you back. I think that's really really key and Yeah, I just want to throw it out there that that's the part that I wish I could go back and fix because I want them to know today that how they feel is legitimate and how they desire what they desire that's different from from what I desire is also legitimate because they're different people from me and Scott. But it's hard to take that back if you've already programmed it in their mind when they were young.

All right, Alex, anything you want to challenge Tali? You can challenge Tali too if you want. Like take this, if you got something on your mind to keep going with that. I don't know.

actually something I want to say, because I think you, or what, I mean, I don't know you, but my feeling is from what, how you, um, you are with me, you are very respectful, lovely people, so. I think this is the most important part that your kids are loved, respected, and have a happy home, and this is what you gave them. And everything else is, is so not important, so it doesn't matter. They are, I think they are the perfect human beings anyway, so don't worry about that, because I think, um, we idolize, make, Is it the right word? Idolize? Idealize? I don't know. Sometimes we tend to perfectionize maybe the idea of other people's, um, relationships with their kids and everything. But in the end, if I unschool, homeschool, if they go to school, the very The most important thing is if they are loved and you did that, so everything's fine. And I don't see that one thing is better or different, blah, blah, blah. Because I think we are all at the point in our life where we need to be. And we are all on our own journey as well. We are parents, we are growing, we are learning. And I tell my kid all the time, dude, I'm not perfect. I have no clue. Most of the times I'm lost. So this is what we are doing. And you need to go through that with me because my parents were always like, We are perfect. You can't challenge us. And I'm like, dude, challenge me, please, because I'm not perfect. I want to learn from you because you are fresh here. You are smarter than me. You are healthy. You weren't traumatized by, by crazy people. So please teach me what is in your mind and, um, I always tell him, please challenge my rules, break my rules. I want you to be smart enough to break my rules and, uh, to make me feel like I need to, to reinvent myself over and over again. And if I say this today, it might change tomorrow. So, um, and I, I did so many. crazy mistakes in this 10 years of raising him. But what I do is always coming back like, dude, I was a different person back then. I'm so sorry, but this is how I was. So deal with it. If you need therapy afterwards, okay, I'm going to pay for it. But, uh, until now it looks like, um, he had a quite happy childhood compared to my childhood. And this is what I wanted. And I think if we're doing it better than, than Yeah, I don't know what we wanted to have as a child. I mean, we always, I mean, everyone has something they, they wish they had in their childhood and I think.

it's actually really interesting you said that because When I was growing up, you know, despite the fact that I was raised in the Chinese culture, my parents were very, very hands off. I had full freedom to do whatever I wanted. And I felt for whatever reason, I interpreted that as I was put in a disadvantage because My other friends have parents who were like helicopter parents, and they were always given opportunities that I wanted that my parents didn't provide because my parents are like, go outside and play in the dirt. You're fine, you know. And so I was somewhat compensating for that when I had my kids because I was going to make sure they got the guidance that I wish I had. But going back to what you said before, which is honestly, In the end, all that matters is they know you love them and that they matter to you and everything else will work themselves out if they need therapy, then they need

we gonna pay for it.

need, they don't need therapy. Actually, what, what you guys have both described is you're, you're building a lifelong relationship with your child. It's completely opposite of what the, the people who want to control your kids want to do, or they want to separate. The parents from the child. They want to be able to control them and tell them how to think. It's, it's the whole Communist Manifesto type of mentality. And, regardless of what your spectrum is, from unschooling to homeschooling to, to, to whatever, the bottom line is, and I, I'm giving you my, how I hear you guys speaking, you guys, regardless of whether you've made, you've made mistakes, you, there is a very clear message to the kids that you care, that if something is Something happens that's not right because that's what happens with, with humans. Things happen. It's okay. We can work through it. We can trust each other. We, we love each other. We're here for each other. That is an amazing thing. And I, and I, I'm very confident that's not what most students in today's structured environments and whatever, whichever country, I think that's probably a huge piece of what's missing. And, and it's like an intentional divide between kids and their, their parents that is built into the way structured schools are, are designed and at least run today. And I'm not accusing all teachers of being bad and all these other things, but I'm just saying overall, it has tended that direction. And you guys have. Done something really powerful. That's going to last a lifetime with the kids. And that's pretty cool. So, you know, hats off to both of you because it is a lot of, it is a lot of work. So

It

is it is very tough, especially if you're very, very close, even physically, because you're you can't escape an argument.

You can't escape, but I'll tell you what the other thing is too, though. You do have, and you touched on this earlier, Alex, and that is not everybody that you are friends with and not everybody who's in your family will understand what you're doing or why. And Can you just touch on that? What has it been like?

Oh, yes.

could be anything from vaccines to the schooling to, to, to whatever. There's a, there's one thing, even when you work through your own doubts about what you're doing, you've had a bad day with whatever it is, and then along comes the family, right? So, what has your experience been like, uh, with that, in that dimension, the family relationships, maybe even friends that don't understand what you're doing?

So regarding my family, I need to say it's easy for me because I wanted to do the exact opposite of what they did. So every time they are criticizing me, I'm like, yes, I'm doing the right thing. And I'm going to do it much more like, I don't know, radical even more now that I know that you hate it. Um, because I felt like, first of all, I have an intuition and that is guiding me very clearly. Secondly, if you hate it, that tells me that I should do it. And this was a recipe in my head and turned out perfectly. It is the perfect way, but I need to say, um, yeah. Huge parts of my family are vaccinated, and I just try to not talk about these kind of topics, because I'm the weird one in the family. We're not vaccinated, we don't go to school, we don't do that, we don't do this, and we don't eat crab, we don't go to McDonald's, and these kind of things. Um, but And the good part is that my family, they are all very lovely people, very, very lovely. And the most important part is the love between us. It's not if you are vaccinated. If not, it's not, if you're going to school, it's all about, we love each other. We support each other. And of course they have critical questions, but, um, it got less and less. And I, um, sometimes I told them just to fuck off. Like this is my life. You don't have no clue. Come here and visit me. You can fly this 6, 000 kilometers to, to this little island and you see it with your own eyes. We were building a school here, like an unschooling school. We have the best community. So please come over and then tell me I do worse than you did as parents and impossible. It's impossible. So I love my parents very, very much, but I have, I have stuff, you know, that, um, I could. I could, uh, like if we want to play that game, who's the better parent? Turns out it's me. So, um, friends, I don't have friends who are not into what I'm doing because of course, sometimes people are like, um, for example, my best friend, she's way more strict, she's unschooling, but she's. So strict when it comes to gaming and these kinds of things. And she's always like, they aren't doing too much over there at your place. They're always like you are to lose and these kinds of things. So we have an active discussion and the rules at my place are different than the rules at her place and the kids know that, and we respect these boundaries. And that's it. Um, I don't really want anything to do with people who are not into what I'm doing, not because I can't stand it, but because it doesn't bring me further. I need people who are way more extreme than me, way, way more crazy about the stuff I'm already crazy about. I need passionate people who want to change the, the narrative, the narrative, and they want to change anything and everything basically. So um. I'm very, very lucky that I have a very strong family and a very strong, um, friend circle around me that is really pushing me, um, challenging, challenging me day to day, basically, and also supporting me with everything. So, um, I think this is the perfect thing. And this understanding, I need to say my grandparents, they're very, very traditional and very strict. So, um, They raised me basically, um, I have a very deep relationship with my grandparents, but they never wronged me. They never did something stupid when I was a child, even now they are still perfect with me. There has never been one single situation where I was like, why did you do that to me? Never. So my grandparents, they never really understood, but they trusted my intuition and the trust that they put in me. Um, that changed our whole relationship. It was always full of love and trust. Um, but now they look up to me a little bit because they see, like, I raised the best kid in this family. And they say it to me, like, this is the best, the last hope we have for this family is your kid. And, um, the support that grew out of that experience. like the mutual experience of respecting each other's ways of life. Um, it's crazy. Um, and I'm so grateful and so lucky. I can't even put that in words, but this is the biggest gift someone can, can give you like respecting the way you live. And maybe even though they don't understand it, trust, support, and these kinds of things. So through that, I am able to give that to my kid. Um, It's the best feeling ever.

How does, uh, I'll go a little bit sideways on you on this. Do they associate you with Bitcoin as part of you being kind of out there with unschooling or is it like a separate, like, how does, how does that fit into this? How does Bitcoin fit into this?

I think Bitcoin for them is, um, one part of my very, very insane lifestyle. Um, they don't really get it. I try to explain it to them once in a while. And they're like, Oh, you can invest for me. I give you the money and these kinds of things, because I think a tiny part in, in their heart is telling them to, yeah, try it out, try it out, try it out. But in the end, this is all part of Alex crazy world. Um, We don't touch that. It's, it's her, whatever she's doing over there. So,

you get into, how did you get into Bitcoin? I, I've got like all kinds of Bitcoin questions. How did you get into it? How are you talking about it with your son? And then once we, we cover that, then maybe we can kind of go into what kind of projects you're working on and your podcasts and that kind of stuff. But, um, I'm curious on it is, this is the Bitcoin homeschooling podcast. So what's your, you know, what's your Bitcoin story and how does it fit in? From an education standpoint.

I discovered Bitcoin in 2015 because I was looking for something where I could make money with. And I had a look at stocks and all these things and it felt off. I didn't want anything to do with just my intuition. I had no clue about finance or whatever, but I was sure I had, I think, 500 euros and I wanted to invest. So I somehow stumbled up, uh, upon Bitcoin and I immediately understood, okay, this is something else. Somehow I need to know more. It was like, it was pulling me into that rabbit hole. I did, I didn't know why, but. I was very lucky that this happened. So, um, I invested without really knowing what is going, what was going on. A couple of months or years later, I sold my coins. I could have been a millionaire by now, but I'm not because I wanted to have some gains. Like, I don't know how many. Couple of hundreds. Very stupid, very stupid. But, um, after I sold my coins, I actually felt so stupid. Uh, I sold it to travel, I think. So this is okay for me because traveling is super important. And through that financial freedom it gave me as a very, very young mom, um, I was able to dig deeper into what is Bitcoin? Why is it so attractive? Like, what, why is it so, It was like, uh, it was pulling me really, um, this passion. I don't, I didn't know where it was coming from, but, um, this helped me to discover a lot about finance, the system. Uh, I always hated the government. My parents always thought I'm ending up being a terrorist or something like that. So I always had this tense, uh, this, this tend to, to be different or to, To not be okay with a government that is telling me how to behave, what to think, what to do, and these kind of things. And with Bitcoin, I was like, dude, this is exactly what I was looking for finance wise. And then I was, um, I met so many cool Bitcoiners on the way. And I was like, dude, these are the coolest people on this planet somehow. And all of them just understood me. And this I never had that in my life because I was always the weird one. And in this community I was like, okay, everyone is like me. This is beautiful. I can just be myself. I don't have to think about what I'm saying or, um, anything like that because they were way more into that. at that point than me. So they were teaching me, they were guiding me. And I really enjoyed that, um, yeah, falling into that rabbit hole. And it led me to millions of things. And then I understood, okay, who is funding the financial system and all these things. And I was like, dude, I'm so happy. I discovered Bitcoin. And this is exactly how I tell my kid about all these things. Uh, of course he sees me working, uh, On Bitcoin with Bitcoin talking about it paying with it and he had a Bitcoin wallet before he had a traditional bank account So he knew he was building nodes a couple of years ago with me So he knows way better about Bitcoin than the normal financial system, but he is pretty open minded and cool So he wants to know why do Don't we trust the normal money and these kind of things? Um, and I just tell him exactly what I would tell you, like the whole story. And he's always listening. He's always into it. And I need to say, um, I was working for a, for being crypto, um, a big crypto magazine. I don't say I'm into crypto and I've. I've been an editor in chief for quite a while there and I started as a journalist because I was interested, interested in Bitcoin and I wanted to get paid for learning more about it. So I became a journalist and I was writing a lot about Bitcoin downside. I needed to research a lot about crypto. What made me realize this is a scam as well. Pretty nice thing. And I had a boss. And he was so much into Bitcoin and Monero and into this privacy things. And he really made me realize this is the only way there's no other option anymore. And he has a podcast in German. So this was my big plus because I was like, okay, there are no, not so many resources out there, but you know, his name is Alex. But you know, Alex, you see them, you see him in all the meetings. He has a podcast, you can listen to it. And every time you listen to one episode, I'm going to send you like 20. sets or something like this. So he was listening and listening and listening and I was sending the sets. So this is how we get into that. And at some point he had the feeling like he knows enough about it and no, it's just a normal part of his life. Um, it's nothing special.

Well, the fact that all the trust that you guys were talking about earlier in this conversation allowed you to have that conversation to say, here's what I see going on with the government and the money. And if he didn't have that trust in you, you could say the same exact thing. It'd be very difficult to, to get him to open up. I would think it would be more, you know, more, more challenging. All right, Alex let's get into like, what are you doing? Because I know I, it, it doesn't sound like there's a lot of Bitcoiners near you and you have your own podcast. So let's just, let's, let's talk about all the things that you're into. And then of course we'll put in the show notes, links to your, your stuff. But um, you don't seem like the type of person who's just going to sit there and do nothing. So what are you up to? What are you up to?

I wish I could just sit down and do nothing. Uh, I try to, I try to some, sometimes it's like 10 minutes, but yeah, so I do have my own podcast, white life unschooling, and it started because I had this. Yeah, voice in the back of my head, like you need to talk about that with other people, you need to record that. And actually, I didn't really know if this was a good idea, but I just did it. So and turned out, okay, this was the best idea, because it deepened my knowledge, it deepened my security about what I'm doing. And this is basically what I'm, yeah, working on. And I want people to see the whole picture of what we are doing, because One thing is decentralized money and one thing is decentralized education and what does that have to do with the other thing and why do we need to combine this and this is all about what I'm talking about in this podcast. So I'm inviting Bitcoiners, I'm inviting homeschooling Bitcoiners, unschooling Bitcoiners, just unschoolers, just homeschoolers and I try to show a very different facet of the whole thing. in every episode, because I think the most interesting people out there are Bitcoiners. I don't necessarily need to talk to, uh, about Bitcoin with them because I already know, I mean, you know, but to talk with them about other stuff, it's like eyeopening most of the times. And, um, Yeah, I, I just try to bring back the spiritual side of money and education as well because I think we're soul beings and I want people to, to be confident enough to see that in themselves and in their kids as well.

So, so based on that. I mean, our, our audience, we're assuming is people, um, young parents or soon to be parents that want to homeschool or they, they have their kids and they're trying to figure out what else they can do, even if their kids are in a public school or some other circumstance. Any particular resources that you love to recommend? I think you mentioned one earlier, um, I wrote it down, the West River. One, any, any other thing like that or any other last pieces of advice that you'd like to, to give someone who is early, early in their journey, or maybe hasn't even taken that first step? What would you, uh, what would you say to them?

reach out, reach out to other unschooling moms that are already a little bit more down the road, because, um, having someone to talk to is gold. It's just gold. And, um, care if it's listening, reading videos, but there is so much nice stuff out there. Peter Gray, Pat Ferenga, there are so many cool dudes out there that are already Like into that way more than I am and that are providing so many great ideas and that are really Yeah, for me it was like a tranquilizer, to be honest, I was reading books by Peter Gray and I was, after every book I was like, thank God I'm doing things right, thank God, because it was just my intuition, but, um, the very Or for me, the most important thing was letting go of my fear and programming. I mean, to de school yourself properly is I think the most important thing. And, uh, the biggest work you are doing is on yourself. It's not, uh, with or on your kid. It's actually with yourself. So meditate, do yoga, go running, do all of that things. care for yourself as a human being, um, love yourself deeply and do this, do these things like self discovery. And I think this is the way to go because the more you love yourself and the more you trust yourself, the better it is for your kid, because you can give that to your kid only if you do it for yourself. So de schooling and getting in contact with others. Through reading, talking, everything. I think this is super important.

I love it. I. I hope someday we could meet in person, uh, maybe you and Tali can meet at the retreat. You guys can talk about the women's retreat and do that, or you can have one in Canary Islands. That would be kind of sounds like a nice thing to do. She might. But, uh, listen, this has been so wonderful to sit down with you, um, and get to know you, you better. And any final thoughts, Tali?

I'm sitting here all like relaxed. Um, yeah, I just want to reiterate what Alex said, which is as a parent, I feel like especially if you're a young parent, you're so focused on what Should I do for my kids? What must I do for my kids? And you forget to fill your own cup. And that is so important because you cannot give them what you don't have for yourself. You cannot teach them respect if you do not have respect for yourself. First, you're going to teach them to be loving human beings if you don't first love yourself. So absolutely self work trumps everything. Well, self work and your relationship with your children. I think those two things come first and then. The academic stuff, the curriculum, the whatever they end up learning skill wise, that's secondary and that will come one way or another.

So.

true

Thanks everybody. We'll catch you next week. Bye.