1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:03,840 Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast. 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,160 If you're looking to learn more about the field of 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:06,880 accessibility, 4 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,760 how to implement it within your role or your company, 5 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,040 or to get advice on where to start or see how others have 6 00:00:13,040 --> 00:00:16,079 navigated complex issues that you may find along the way, 7 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:17,760 then you're in the right place. 8 00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:20,720 I'm honoured to be able to share these insightful chats 9 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:21,440 with thought leaders, 10 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,480 advocates and practitioners of digital accessibility 11 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,600 throughout this podcast and I hope you'll find it a useful 12 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:28,400 resource. 13 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:29,200 As always, 14 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,240 thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoy the 15 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:32,880 chat. 16 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,320 Today's guest is someone whose creative eye and personal 17 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,920 experience is starting to shape a unique perspective on 18 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:45,280 accessibility and design. 19 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,760 I'm joined by Matt Roberts, a designer, 20 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,440 leader and accessibility advocate who's made it his mission 21 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,040 to champion inclusive design not just as a best practice 22 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,640 but as the foundation of great user experience. 23 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,160 As someone who's colourblind or experiences colour vision 24 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:02,960 deficiency, 25 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,160 Matt brings a deeply personal understanding of what 26 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,480 inclusive design really means in practice. 27 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,360 We're going to explore his journey into accessibility, 28 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,040 how he's integrated it into every stage of his career, 29 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,160 from hands-on design to leadership, the challenges, 30 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:21,920 pushbacks and small but powerful design changes that can 31 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:23,280 really make a big impact. 32 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:25,520 So welcome to the podcast, Matt. 33 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:26,320 Thank you very much. 34 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:27,280 Thanks for having me. 35 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:28,720 You're very welcome. 36 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:30,000 Awesome. 37 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:30,240 Right. 38 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:33,760 So we always start off with the journey or your journey 39 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:34,880 into accessibility. 40 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,000 So what first drew you into the world of, well, 41 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:39,840 I guess design first and foremost? 42 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,800 And then when did accessibility become a focus for you 43 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,200 personally and professionally? 44 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:46,320 Cool. 45 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,360 So full caveat. 46 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,320 I'm one of those people that found my thing early. 47 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,200 I'm one of those people that, you know, 48 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,760 when did you first think about design? 49 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,840 I always wanted to create, like from primary school, 50 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,120 that kind of, like we're talking a couple of years ago, 51 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,280 should we say a couple of years ago. 52 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:08,080 Yeah, 53 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,280 I didn't know exactly what kind of design I wanted to get 54 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,960 into, but art and design was my kind of thing. 55 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,920 And as kind of been reflecting quite a bit recently, 56 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,560 I was just trying to think about those kind of early 57 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,280 interactions with accessibility and things like that. 58 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:26,960 And it was really weird. 59 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:28,480 And I'll have to do a bit more digging, 60 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,840 but I remember somebody coming in at primary school, 61 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,080 must have been year five or six for me. 62 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,480 And someone came in and they were a designer, 63 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:40,160 they created all sorts of stuff. 64 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,240 And they brought in a kind of hairstyle, 65 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:49,120 kind of A4 piece of paper that was for visually impaired 66 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:50,960 customers, for hairdressers. 67 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,120 And I thought it was really cool, 68 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,080 but I didn't really know what to do with that information. 69 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:57,200 So this is pretty cool. 70 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,600 But then he also came in and talked about working on 71 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,120 special effects for James Bond. 72 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:09,040 So it was kind of who this person is, I'm trying to find. 73 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,280 But that was a really interesting point of just kind of, 74 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:14,400 oh, that's the earliest, 75 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:16,800 like getting at the earliest bit of accessibility. 76 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,600 But as a lot of the design education still is, 77 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,200 and hopefully it's evolving, 78 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,240 is that kind of accessibility and inclusive design really 79 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:31,760 wasn't mentioned throughout GCSE, A-level and whatever, 80 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:33,920 the degree, anything like that. 81 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:40,000 It was much later on that I kind of found this term 82 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,440 accessibility from a professional sense, 83 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,840 but from a kind of a personal sense, 84 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:47,520 to go backwards a little bit. 85 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,600 So I was born a harder hearing. 86 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:51,600 I've got a burst eardrums. 87 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:56,240 I got told I was colourblind at around 10, 11, 12, 88 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:57,680 that kind of age. 89 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,560 And then I had arthritis diagnosis when I was 24, 90 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,600 which made me really think, oh, well, 91 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,000 interact with mobile phones and technology in a very new 92 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:10,320 way. 93 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,720 And kind of taking so much more for granted before that. 94 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,320 And then kind of really struggling to type a phone number 95 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,880 onto a phone or whatever it might be. 96 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:30,080 And yeah, it kind of these two things kind of collided. 97 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:30,480 Kind of, 98 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,840 I've always cared about other people and kind of making 99 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:36,560 people feel included in group conversation or whatever it 100 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:37,040 might be. 101 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,520 And then I had this personal kind of experience of knowing 102 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:43,760 what it's like to feel a little bit excluded. 103 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:45,840 I never felt like really excluded, 104 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,640 but I felt these little moments of exclusion, 105 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,480 even kind of being left-handed and trying to play hockey at 106 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,640 school and they kind of using the hockey sticks. 107 00:04:58,960 --> 00:04:59,920 I can't play. 108 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,800 I can't play because I can't hold it that way or playing 109 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:03,280 the guitar. 110 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:04,720 Like my dad plays the guitar. 111 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,560 It's like, learning, I couldn't, 112 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:08,800 left-handed guitars are expensive. 113 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,280 So I forced myself to learn right-handed. 114 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,840 And it was kind of those little moments of thinking, 115 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,040 the adaptation that you can do yourself, 116 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,280 and then the design and everything around you. 117 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,560 So these little pockets of experiences, I suppose, 118 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:29,040 kind of led to this kind of almost kind of Eureka moment, 119 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:30,480 I suppose, where someone said, oh, 120 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:31,440 do you know what you're talking about? 121 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:32,640 It's called accessibility. 122 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:34,720 So no, what's that? 123 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:35,920 Just type it in. 124 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:37,600 Honestly, like, just type it in. 125 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,600 Follow the hashtags, hashtag accessibility or A bomb on Y, 126 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:43,120 all this kind of stuff. 127 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:44,960 And I'll leave you to it kind of thing. 128 00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:50,000 Ah, now this, that's, that's, that's my calling. 129 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:50,800 There we go. 130 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:51,600 There we go. 131 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,280 And then talking then about being colorblind and as a 132 00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:56,560 designer, that kind of, 133 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,680 kind of juxtaposition opposites kind of thing coming 134 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,680 together and going, oh, this is mad. 135 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:02,960 So yeah, 136 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,480 I suppose that Eureka moment fueled with lots of mini 137 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,120 experiences over the years kind of led me to get into it. 138 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,400 That starting point, that was about seven, eight years ago. 139 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:15,600 Wow. 140 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:16,560 Oh, brilliant. 141 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:17,200 And yeah, 142 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:22,480 I think it is if you have the right people around you at 143 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,560 times, isn't it, to help join the dots and then, 144 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,960 or at least just push you in the right direction or make 145 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:27,760 you aware of something. 146 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:29,280 And when you said about you, 147 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,680 you don't feel that you've ever been like really fully 148 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:32,320 excluded. 149 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:34,960 I think that I've had loads of conversations recently about 150 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:36,000 neurodivergency. 151 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,080 Currently talking to a few people myself about if I go down 152 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:41,120 the diagnosis route, 153 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,680 just to see what's happening in my brain. 154 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,240 And I was talking to my mum actually at the weekend and she 155 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:48,480 said, 156 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,840 you were always sort of accepted and people gravitated 157 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:53,920 towards you, but you kind of excluded yourself. 158 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,440 So actually it was like a self-ableism or a self-sort of, 159 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,640 I don't feel I belong because I identify differently or I 160 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,080 think that things should be different or you don't know how 161 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:07,120 to approach a situation. 162 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,600 So I think that still really affects you. 163 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,200 And then when you were talking about guitar, 164 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:12,880 it made me think of Jimi Hendrix because he was 165 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:13,360 left-handed, 166 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,760 but he just flipped the guitar upside down and played 167 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:16,240 upside down. 168 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,120 And you just think, okay, well, that's, you know, 169 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:24,720 another example of an inaccessible environment and having 170 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,480 to have those eureka moments or that level of genius to 171 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:29,440 sort of navigate it. 172 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,400 But that's where accessibility comes in, isn't it? 173 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:33,520 It's where it sort of says, no, 174 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,720 you shouldn't have to have that struggle and, you know, 175 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:38,560 make things work. 176 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:39,840 Yeah, 100%. 177 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:41,600 And yeah, you notice those, 178 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,080 start to notice those little bits, particularly like I was, 179 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:47,200 I was kind of, 180 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,160 the left-handed thing really got to me as a kid. 181 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,200 And then you notice even like cash points, 182 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:54,720 who uses cash anyway. 183 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:55,840 Cash points, 184 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,440 the point to enter the card is on the right-hand side. 185 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,480 So as a left-handed dominant person, 186 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,160 you're kind of going across the screen. 187 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,400 Same with the London Underground, 188 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,400 the swipe or whatever the mechanism is, 189 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:12,960 or the multiple ways of doing it now, 190 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:14,320 is always on the right-hand side. 191 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,080 So it feels really awkward, 192 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,080 but it's another sign of just one way of thinking. 193 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,320 The majority of people are right-handed. 194 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:26,800 There's the solution right-handed. 195 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,560 But yes, it's loads of little bits like that. 196 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:31,280 But yeah. 197 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:31,840 Who knows? 198 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,919 I could have been a hockey star if only school had supplied 199 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,280 me with a left-handed stick. 200 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:38,159 Who knows? 201 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:39,039 Who knows? 202 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:40,240 Oh, man. 203 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,440 And I think that's something that a lot of people could 204 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,040 probably identify with or recognise because I remember 205 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,040 being at primary school when there were left-handed 206 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,920 scissors, you know, safety scissors, of course, 207 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,120 but left-handed. 208 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:54,960 And I thought, why would you? 209 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:58,000 And you wouldn't think about it until you're in that 210 00:08:58,000 --> 00:08:58,880 scenario. 211 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:00,480 But like you say, 212 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,920 even with like the Oyster or the contactless points or an 213 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:05,520 ATM or Cash Point, 214 00:09:05,680 --> 00:09:09,280 you think it must feel really unnatural for you. 215 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,280 But it's another example of designing for the majority and 216 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:14,320 not everyone. 217 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:16,640 Yeah, wow. 218 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:16,960 Okay. 219 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:17,760 That's great. 220 00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:20,480 I think it's that significance as well. 221 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:22,640 Maybe we'll talk about more of it throughout the 222 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:23,040 conversation. 223 00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:26,560 I never felt significant enough to make a point. 224 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,720 It's just, oh, that's just the way I adapt. 225 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:32,720 And so many others do adapt, not just me. 226 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,520 Lots of people just adapt because that's the world around 227 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:35,680 us. 228 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:37,360 That's just how it's been designed. 229 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:38,400 And yeah, 230 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:45,600 just maybe that adaptability is maybe kind of part of why I 231 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:46,480 love problem solving. 232 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:49,200 So how does that shift and how does that do that? 233 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,520 And also know that things can change. 234 00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:57,360 So I talked briefly about my arthritis that hit me for 235 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:58,480 quite a period of time. 236 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,080 You know, I couldn't pick up a pen and couldn't first time. 237 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,520 So I couldn't use the shortcuts using Photoshop because I 238 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,640 needed two hands or the dexterity. 239 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,200 But knowing that over time, this is maybe for another time, 240 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:14,480 the extended cut, 241 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,960 but I ended up running across the country over a two-week 242 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,360 period after this arthritis diagnosis, like, ah, 243 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:25,280 a bit of a kind of, I can do that, like, I'm still able, 244 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:26,880 like almost stubborn kind of thing, 245 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,120 as I can be at times. 246 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,120 It's like, I didn't want it to define me. 247 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,680 And I suppose that's an interesting thing. 248 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,960 It's like, I just, I've got arthritis, but I'm 24, 249 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,240 but all the material and yeah, 250 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,560 marketing material is skewed towards older people. 251 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:43,120 It's like, no, 252 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,320 I don't want to be in that box and I don't want people to 253 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:47,200 put me in that box. 254 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,920 So I kind of worked with myself mentally, emotionally, 255 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:52,320 physically. 256 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,200 Just like, I don't want to do that. 257 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,680 But I might regret it later on with not taking all the 258 00:10:59,680 --> 00:11:01,360 advice of the doctors. 259 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:06,000 But it was a real moment to kind of understand that, 260 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:06,720 you know, 261 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,560 there are some diagnoses and conditions that kind of very 262 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:12,480 permanent and they can't change. 263 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:15,520 I'm not going to wake up suddenly right-handed, 264 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,120 but I know that my arthritis will come and go. 265 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,600 And I know that my eyesight will, like most people, 266 00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:24,880 will deteriorate with age. 267 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:26,880 That is inevitable. 268 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:28,880 So it's these little, again, 269 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,560 these little experiences that kind of kind of just bring 270 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:36,640 into my design work and my kind of influencing and advocacy 271 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:36,960 work. 272 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:37,600 Yeah. 273 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:39,920 And I know, sorry, I mean, 274 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:40,960 I could talk to you all day long. 275 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:41,600 You know that, Matt, 276 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:43,920 because I've chewed your ear off more than enough times in 277 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:45,440 the past, in the recent past. 278 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,920 But something that you've said there as well made me think 279 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,360 of something that Craig Abbott said in a really early 280 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:54,320 episode of the podcast. 281 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:55,920 And it was sort of, what would you look, 282 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,080 what quality would you look for someone that's working in 283 00:11:58,080 --> 00:11:58,880 accessibility? 284 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,360 And one of the first things he said was resilience. 285 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:04,560 And that just shows that's bred into you, really. 286 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:06,880 And I think through that experience, 287 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,600 through that personal sort of lived experience anyway, 288 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,360 as well, and being able to identify, problem solve, 289 00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:14,560 and being resilient, 290 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,320 because you're not going to let it just beat you down. 291 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:18,720 You're not going to just go, oh, I have arthritis. 292 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:19,840 I can't run across the country. 293 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:20,880 I'm left-handed. 294 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:21,680 I can't play hockey. 295 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,440 I'm sure you still gave it a good go. 296 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,320 And the guitar, all sorts of things, you know, 297 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,800 and that shows that level of resilience that's really sort 298 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,920 of required to thrive in this sort of industry. 299 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,360 But I will bring that on to the second question, 300 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:40,880 where we've spoken before about how being colorblind or 301 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,520 colour vision deficient has influenced your approach at 302 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:44,800 times to design. 303 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,440 So just wondering what it's been like with like the 304 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:48,720 challenges that you've faced, 305 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,080 anything in any small sort of tips as well that you might 306 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,520 have or how it's sort of shaped you into being a bit more 307 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:56,880 of a, I don't know, 308 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:00,160 I've written this down and I don't want to say that you 309 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:01,760 were never thoughtful as a designer, 310 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:03,280 but more thoughtful designer. 311 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:04,960 More thoughtful. 312 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:06,080 It's all adding. 313 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:07,040 It's all adding. 314 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:09,600 Yeah, I suppose the biggest... 315 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:10,800 So, yeah, 316 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,600 I suppose there's been a real shift over the last few 317 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:13,840 years. 318 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,640 You know, I'm nearly 40 to give it context. 319 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:18,320 So for about 30 odd years, 320 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,800 I didn't never really thought of it as something. 321 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,240 It was never kind of over laboured and things like that 322 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,640 throughout school or anything. 323 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:27,360 And actually, 324 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,720 I've really been learning what it is to be colourblind and 325 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:37,280 like the seriousness of it and where it does could impact 326 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:38,400 me, where it doesn't. 327 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,240 But what I'm also finding really interesting is I suppose 328 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,920 the biggest challenge, as even someone who's colourblind, 329 00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:52,480 there's so little information out there how common 330 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:53,520 colourblindness is. 331 00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:57,120 So a lot of the things I do share, 332 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,680 it's like this one in 12 men are colourblind. 333 00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:04,080 And you think when you look at that in terms of your team, 334 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,320 your kind of organisation, the networks you're a part of, 335 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:10,560 the family gatherings, whatever it might be. 336 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:15,680 So one in 12 statistically are colourblind and it's one in 337 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:16,800 200 women. 338 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:19,680 So the challenge, I suppose, 339 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:25,440 there is just shifting that mindset to how common is it and 340 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,280 what is the implications of being colourblind and kind of 341 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:34,400 working through the challenges of as soon as you anybody 342 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,880 who's colourblind will relate to this it's like oh you tell 343 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,400 someone that you're colourblind oh so uh what colour's that 344 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,880 uh what colour's that uh what it is it's inevitable because 345 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,320 it's curious it's done with a lot of heart and a bit 346 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:53,920 obviously a bit of humour as well but it's uh it's a real 347 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,440 kind of opportunity then to say look the the traffic lights 348 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,680 I can can see those traffic lights for my my condition 349 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,080 which is red green so deuteronomy I can never pronounce it 350 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:12,640 but it's the red green variety so where I kind of do do 351 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,920 struggle in a kind of a more practical sense is say like 352 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,720 playing cricket and the cricket ball being red amongst them 353 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,960 the green of the grass spotting that ball is maybe more 354 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:30,480 difficult than people with normal vision or kind of um tis 355 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,000 the season so the Christmas tree being green and kind of 356 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,600 the the colours within that that are used I can't 357 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,240 necessarily see the the baubles kind of pop I hate that 358 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:48,960 word pop as much as many other people um so but it's it's 359 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,000 that kind of education and things like that and there's 360 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,920 obviously micro kind of I say microaggressions it's like 361 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,160 the the school thing it's like oh you colour blind are you 362 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,440 colour blind it's those flippant remarks and stuff like 363 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:07,440 that um and kind of working also against a system whereby 364 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,920 it's kind of um there so you see corrections in red in an 365 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,920 email it's those kind of things it's just been there that's 366 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,920 where it's been in industry for years and years so working 367 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,320 with um various teams um accessibility champions teams and 368 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,240 things like that to kind of okay so that's um inherent kind 369 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,160 of go-to what's what's the alternative and and kind of um 370 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,160 using annotated documents in word and google and all that 371 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,640 kind of stuff that that helps provide a solution to people 372 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,880 who can't see those things so that's probably uh the 373 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,320 biggest challenge i think it's from my experience it's a 374 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:53,760 fairly new conversation um and uh yeah one i'm kind of 375 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:58,400 discovering more and more myself to kind of influence 376 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,920 people as much as possible to understand it and kind of go 377 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,200 okay it's less serious than i thought or it's more serious 378 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,160 than i thought like let's let's work out what i can 379 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,160 generally do day to day to to support you know technically 380 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:17,440 yeah one in 12 one in 12 men or one in 200 women yeah and 381 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:21,680 it's it's one of those conditions uh where i've heard a lot 382 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,000 of remarks where someone's introduced themselves and 383 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,440 they've for whatever reason the conversation's gone on to 384 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,720 the fact that they do have color vision deficiency or 385 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,400 they're colorblind and people go oh but you can still see 386 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,360 like belittling it like it's not serious and that's a 387 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:42,800 really horrible part of not part of the industry because I 388 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,040 think there's a lot more empathy within accessibility 389 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:51,280 itself but that unawareness ignorance I may call it and 390 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,400 microaggression I think that's actually quite aggressive 391 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,880 it's that's a real that's going to have a real impact as 392 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:02,240 well and there's the conversation of people saying they 393 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,400 don't feel they belong so they don't think they're disabled 394 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,960 enough or well is it serious enough like you said and there 395 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,880 are some real serious implications like you say if people 396 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,440 are using just colour to define meaning in anything it 397 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,840 could be a really serious document you could be going to 398 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:26,880 jail not you back because you're a jail um it's yeah 399 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:31,040 absolutely i mean it's it's and why why should anyone that 400 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,800 doesn't have the experience um be able to make that remark 401 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,360 as well so yeah and i think the the biggest yeah again one 402 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:44,320 of the most kind of um universal kind of components i 403 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,440 suppose to understand colourblindness is forms there's a 404 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,280 form everywhere on every site there's a form to fill out um 405 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,360 yeah enter your email here for another newsletter or 10 off 406 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,200 or kind of to fill out um something related to your doctors 407 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,320 or whatever it might be or kind of claiming anything 408 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,520 through gov.uk or whatever it might be there are always 409 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:10,640 forms there and typically green is good success pass red is 410 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:16,240 fail error all that kind of stuff so if you kind of next 411 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,040 time you're filling out a form or whatever and see oh see 412 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:24,080 error in red or think about that page if you couldn't see 413 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,200 the color could you generally find where that mistake is on 414 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:32,000 that page so the the um the the way around there if you're 415 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,960 a designer listening is um looking at absolutely use 416 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,560 conventional things like expected colours you know it's no 417 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,440 point in then introducing a blue or a pink or whatever use 418 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,760 those assumed and colours that have been well established 419 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,160 is but uh add something to it so it's a green tick next to 420 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:57,040 it or a red cross so regardless of colour you could see a 421 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,240 cross next to the field that's incorrect and it's okay 422 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,520 there there we go there's you're not again relying on that 423 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:07,200 that colour um but yeah i encourage people to have a look 424 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:10,800 at uh filling out form if you can't see the colours and 425 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,400 they're they're saying they're correct correct the field in 426 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,120 red and you're you've already spent 20 minutes filling out 427 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:21,200 the form and now you have to have to find that red yeah 428 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,120 yeah very frustrating absolutely but thank you for that 429 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,280 because that hopefully will come in handy to a lot of 430 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:32,320 people that do listen to this um love a love a small tip 431 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,960 and it seems i mean obviously i probably wouldn't be able 432 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,320 to do that myself because i'm not as technical as you or in 433 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:43,760 the design field but um yeah having a easy fix to something 434 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,720 um i put air quotes up just for anyone that's only 435 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:52,080 listening um is always helpful uh brilliant so on the more 436 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,720 strategic side as well of what you do i know there's some 437 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,200 leadership as well and um awareness building um in the 438 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,840 various companies you've worked with but when it comes to 439 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,960 sort of accessibility within design a lot of organizations 440 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,000 do treat it still as an afterthought uh something that 441 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,480 comes in at the testing phase which we know is extremely 442 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,960 expensive compared with if you shift left as as many will 443 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,320 understand that term um but how have you managed to sort of 444 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:22,000 build accessibility into your specifically your design 445 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,120 process from the outset and has that had much of an impact 446 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:29,600 on your project or the teams that you're working with uh 447 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:35,440 yeah so the main bit is i guess accessibility and kind of 448 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,040 the mainstream is only is a fairly new term i think we can 449 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,120 all agree it's fairly new into a lot of projects and that's 450 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:46,160 been around for years and years and some incredibly 451 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,000 technical experts out there it's a fairly new term so for a 452 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,880 lot of project teams it is incredibly new and kind of it's 453 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,080 it seems like an extra it's oh what is this accessibility 454 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,560 thing oh no there's another bit of paperwork there's 455 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:06,640 another thing to do um but uh where I found it really 456 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:12,000 useful is to kind of respectfully ditch the term 457 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:16,720 accessibility to prove a point just to kind of say kind of 458 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:23,120 put a prototype together and uh say just for for this this 459 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:25,840 scenario and no this is kind of very light touch but this 460 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:31,840 kind of can work is we all know that the apple mouse is 461 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,160 terrible so when when it runs out of battery you're putting 462 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,520 it on its side like a dead mouse and you can't use it so 463 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,400 that's the scenario we're in your mouse has just died but 464 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,960 you've got to fill out this form or navigate to this area 465 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,560 of the website like you now to use the keyboard to get to 466 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,080 that place like super familiar we've all had that moment oh 467 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:56,640 no my mouse is uh put that to the side now navigate to this 468 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,880 section and use the keyboard but it's a it's a very 469 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,480 ordinary thing to do it's nothing too technical it's just 470 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,120 use what tool you now have in front of you and then the the 471 00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:12,640 penny can drop saying well i can't get get to that thing 472 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,200 it's like well exactly that's that's part of accessibility 473 00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:20,800 like i'll put accessibility almost as the the end point but 474 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,120 the first point is like just try and access this thing just 475 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:28,480 do this very simple simple thing of going from this home 476 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,880 page to the about us page because you want to find out 477 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,520 about this organization whatever uh but don't use your 478 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,520 mouse because your mouse has died it's charging there it'll 479 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,840 be half hour an hour so you've got to work working this way 480 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,720 um so yeah that's the that's the bit and i'll do that on a 481 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,280 few few examples where it's just shifting shifting that 482 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,200 moment go i can't do that thing or yeah another example 483 00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:56,000 you've had an accident you've broken your arm touch wood 484 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,680 you don't break your arm on a regular basis but you you're 485 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,600 only then using one one arm to to do something maybe use 486 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,280 your phone use a tablet or whatever but again another 487 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:13,520 fairly straightforward example scenario to address the 488 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,640 point of go this is really difficult or this is really easy 489 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,600 it's like well there yeah that's proved my point that's why 490 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,840 we stripped down this huge document into such a more 491 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,120 straightforward thing because you you can do that kind of 492 00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:29,520 one-handed left hand whether you're dominant or right hand 493 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,160 whether you're not as dominant or the other way around you 494 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,640 can still do that thing um and that that's that kind of 495 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,440 builds up that kind of understanding empathy and kind of 496 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,560 okay it's part of it's part of the process not this extra 497 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,920 thing because I felt that I felt the frustration of not 498 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,360 being able to do whatever yeah I think it's very similar to 499 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:54,800 the situational temporary permanent Microsoft design 500 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,680 guidelines or design principles where if you have that in 501 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,240 your mind when you're designing for a product service 502 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,040 whatever it might be it makes things much more familiar I 503 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,200 think that's the problem I think there's a lot of people 504 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,160 that are in design development or any kind of technical 505 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,600 role creating products even content creators everyone's a 506 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,840 content creator these days I mean look at me I'm actually 507 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:23,280 just a recruiter but when it comes to stuff you're putting 508 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,280 out there you mightn't have that consideration because you 509 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,440 haven't in the past or whatever it might be you've never 510 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,520 come across it someone's never complained yet and yeah I 511 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:39,200 guess with regulation changes and the EAA now in for in 512 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,480 force and enforceable seeing a lot more popping up about it 513 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,800 every day which is good it's going to be hopefully more 514 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,120 commonplace that these conversations are having and you 515 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:52,800 have to be ready so yeah no but they're I think they're 516 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,360 great tips because it is if you make it that bit more 517 00:25:55,360 --> 00:26:01,360 familiar for anyone to go I can empathize or I can sort of 518 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:04,400 have that understanding of well that'd be a real pain if I 519 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,960 couldn't do that so yeah and I think to your point about 520 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,200 the PAA coming in came in on my birthday coincidence who 521 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,960 knows who knows but I had no role to play in it but I will 522 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,040 always remember that they came in um but it's it's to know 523 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,760 that particularly if you're very new to accessibility or 524 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,160 you've just kind of heard it on the cusp of a conference or 525 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,920 whatever is not to be even more afraid of accessibility 526 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,200 think it's even bigger and it's rational it's like yeah it 527 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,640 is absolutely super important that's why there's particular 528 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,600 specialist agencies out there to support you navigate 529 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:43,120 through the compliance aspect of it but it's also to remind 530 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:47,040 remind yourself that it's you have a role and 531 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,440 responsibility within accessibility and making somebody 532 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,520 feel included in a teams meeting like setting up and 533 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,280 presenting through powerpoint will allow that person to 534 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,120 control kind of the pace of the slide so he can go back and 535 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:05,040 kind of translate the slides and things like that it's like 536 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:08,960 oh cool like that that helps that's not like a other person 537 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,240 else that's an agency coming in that's a that's a me just 538 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,920 making sure that when i present through teams microsoft put 539 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,520 powerpoint bam and and there you go you know there's 540 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,640 there's that kind of simplify quite a simple task you can 541 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,480 do to ensure even just that extra person can contribute to 542 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:32,000 a conversation so definitely i think those small 543 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,720 incremental changes that you can make to the way you do 544 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,840 things presentations like you say or just how you sort of 545 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,000 perform your your job i think sometimes people don't 546 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,960 realize actually the gravity of that scenario or the level 547 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,240 of impact they can have and sometimes they feel well it's 548 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,960 an extra step i'm not going to impact anyone it might be 549 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,920 one person one person's enough let's just say that if 550 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,040 you're impacting one person you could either be ruining 551 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,240 someone's day or making it so why wouldn't you want to make 552 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,400 someone's day yeah yeah 100 yeah there's so many simple 553 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,000 ones out there like like that present presenting three 554 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,800 teams and um presenting through powerpoint um yeah yeah 555 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,440 it's a no-brainer it's a yeah no-brainer definitely perfect 556 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,920 um so moving into sort of leadership and that strategy side 557 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,480 we have sort of touched on it already but in that 558 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,720 transition from hands-on design into that kind of 559 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:34,000 leadership position for yourself um it's often i guess 560 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,000 where accessibility either really takes a hold or it can 561 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,120 get sort of lost in the ether if you're no longer the 562 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,400 hands-on person doing the thing but how have you helped 563 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,120 teams or clients or companies see accessibility as that 564 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,320 creative advantage rather than an initial constraint i 565 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:57,120 guess we've kind of already mentioned that but yeah i 566 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,480 suppose there's a couple of bits there one is about keeping 567 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,440 the momentum of the conversation of accessibility it can 568 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,200 kind of fizzle out if you're the onlybody only one kind of 569 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,440 firing that fueling that fire so i can only do so much as a 570 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,640 little match um but if there's a enough of you and there's 571 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,360 a champions network and and things like that it was just 572 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,280 even a small group of you kind of regularly talking about 573 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,760 accessibility that's a real opportunity to kind of make and 574 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,600 ensure that momentum and consistency is still there to kind 575 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,440 of get uh get in front of the right people and kind of get 576 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,800 them um talk to them in the right way about all these 577 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,520 different opportunities um i suppose the creative advantage 578 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,560 as a as a designer i love a problem i think every every 579 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:49,680 designer loves a problem to solve uh and maybe not problem 580 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,320 is not the right word the the con the constraint the 581 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,880 parameters like what have i what can i do yeah problem is 582 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,320 not the right word the constraint of it just so oh it needs 583 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,240 to be 12 oh it's always six point and because on packaging 584 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,680 it's always six points i know you're like in some scenarios 585 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,880 like the 12 points the minimum let's let's use that as 586 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,720 leverage and let's see how creative we can be with that and 587 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:19,920 kind of not build on a design like almost like start a new 588 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,120 kind of design thinking a new design system rather than 589 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,400 kind of butchering kind of something that was old and kind 590 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,840 of maybe less informed you know we've got this new research 591 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,960 about the size and the tactile nature of packaging or 592 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,320 whatever it might be is kind of use that and kind of um 593 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,120 yeah you use that to to really stand out and kind of make a 594 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,880 mark on a on a shelf or on a somebody's screen oh wow 595 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,760 they've really they've really thought about it and they've 596 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,960 used it and they've not kind of tried to hide it away and 597 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,600 put it somewhere else and do what kind of cover it up so 598 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,040 it's all available on the qr code like just bunged it all 599 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,840 on on there they've kind of really understood kind of um 600 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,040 yeah whether it's the uh the size of the font or the 601 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,880 colours and so they're a red green organization how do we 602 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,200 do that oh my god matt's coming in talking about 603 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,720 colorblindness we've got a rebrand no there's there's so 604 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,480 many opportunities and i love that as a like as a design 605 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,480 design challenge and a kind of opportunity okay what let's 606 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,200 understand that further let's go deeper like why does it 607 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:32,400 need to be that size or those colours and kind of um work 608 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,000 out what the potential issues are and again by talking to 609 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,560 people like talk to people who colorblind or neurodiverse 610 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,840 depending on the the scenario like talk talk to them 611 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,520 understand what the frustrations are same around dyslexia 612 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,640 and things like that just understand that a little bit more 613 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,080 so you're not building a solution based on your assumptions 614 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,440 like oh it's it's this it's that's have you really spoken 615 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,280 to any like have you felt their frustration have you felt 616 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:04,000 actually that uh where people think this is a dyslexic 617 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,240 friendly font it it doesn't really do anything more or less 618 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:14,560 than existing this font and this font so like be uh be 619 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,760 honest be authentic be kind of uh be open to listening and 620 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,080 kind of talking to people and not kind of sitting siloed at 621 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,120 home and kind of oh I need to think about all this like all 622 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,400 these variants like no use it use it as an opportunity to 623 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,560 kind of really solve another problem and you're not going 624 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,200 to get it right straight away no very few people do but 625 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,560 it's a it's an evolution just kind of building on it and 626 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,760 stuff so I guess it's having that I mean a lot of designers 627 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,800 will have that level of curiosity as well I think a lot of 628 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,920 people might it depends I suppose doesn't it on the role 629 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,760 that you've you've got um but I think a lot of people will 630 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:56,400 have that natural curiosity and ask that question and go a 631 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,040 bit further and go well who's it going to impact or how are 632 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,560 they using X Y and Z but another part I suppose like you 633 00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,920 said keeping it as part of the conversation you have maybe 634 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,640 a bit more control over the design briefs and things 635 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,400 because I think if you've got it in there as like a 636 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,680 something to be considered in the brief it's like okay well 637 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,920 that's another constraint is something that has to be 638 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,720 considered rather than just well I've got personal 639 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,360 experience and I want to make it better for for me or 640 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:30,080 people like me but something else I was going to say there 641 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:37,200 was I can't remember that's really bad that's fine we'll go 642 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,960 on to the next bit but just on that point of the briefing 643 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:47,200 is that if it's not part of the brief then how how are you 644 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,480 approaching it are you then approaching a brief not making 645 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,920 it accessible is that the is that the mindset that that's 646 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,120 the genuine conversation that's not kind of a little bit 647 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,160 provocative is kind of but so so you're creating something 648 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,160 that's not accessible and and by accessible we mean like we 649 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,600 can't kind of always really mindful of using accessible 650 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,080 just like to cover absolutely everything but kind of let's 651 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,520 kind of think about kind of approaching an advertising 652 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:20,000 brief mobile app or whatever does it need to explicitly 653 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,199 kind of say make the most accessible app ever or whatever 654 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,400 it might be it's like no if it's commercial and it's public 655 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,239 facing it should adhere to actually some disability acts 656 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,719 and etc etc uh as a given it's not an extra it's a given it 657 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,080 needs to be compliant um eaa and all that kind of thing 658 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:43,520 coming in um so in a brief the the additional bit is that 659 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:48,080 we know it's targeted for a certain age has a certain 660 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:54,480 demographic or certain certain um kind of uh uh yeah 661 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,760 whatever it might be a certain organization that okay then 662 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,680 we need additional um insights and actually we've got a 663 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,600 really really um really great opportunity here to talk 664 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,440 directly to the audience and do user interviews and 665 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,800 prototyping and all that kind of stuff so yeah i'd i'd kind 666 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,520 of challenge that kind of brief where it hasn't got it in 667 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:21,040 it that um you do it instinctively anyway as as part of 668 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,400 good design a good design is kind of understanding your 669 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,800 audience and understanding the breadth of that audience as 670 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,360 well so another sorry we're gonna probably carry on for the 671 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,160 rest of the day but um another thing on and it's just 672 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,760 popped back into my head what i was gonna say and it's full 673 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,880 circle with what you were just mentioning there the i think 674 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,760 a big problem in the design space is how subjective good 675 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,000 design is it's what you think is good design others may not 676 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,360 so you putting accessibility in there others might go but 677 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,800 that's not good design that's not in my definition of done 678 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,280 or um but i think someone i really i've been racking my 679 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,640 brains to try and remember who said this to me i think it 680 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:10,400 may have been jamie and lion um or charlie turrell so bbc 681 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,640 days and they said rather than putting it into a brief or 682 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,000 talking about accessibility they actually rephrased it who 683 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,600 are we willing to exclude because then as soon as you 684 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,360 phrase it like that decision makers is will prick up and go 685 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,720 well no one we can't exclude anyone well that's what you're 686 00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:32,320 doing by not considering so yeah really interesting 687 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,720 terminology really helpful exercise that i've had child 688 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,240 talk about it before and it's it's really good it's really 689 00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:40,560 helpful and it's like i think you're particularly 690 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:43,760 mentioning bbc here it's like talking about um particular 691 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:46,720 like news round which is kind of slightly younger audience 692 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,800 and slightly older audience who we willing we're happy to 693 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,160 exclude willing to exclude at a certain age when it's kind 694 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,800 of 10 o'clock news we're kind of willing to kind of exclude 695 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,480 kind of uh the younger younger audience here we don't need 696 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:07,040 to kind of necessarily go into explaining every acronym and 697 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,320 kind of the history and kind of simplifying the language to 698 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:14,000 that age-appropriate kind of audience we're happy to 699 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,800 exclude if they watch it great why are they up at 10 700 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,160 o'clock at night but it's just kind of understanding kind 701 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:25,840 of who your audience is and if if by just listening a few 702 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,600 few audience types out at least you've acknowledged it 703 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,120 you've acknowledged inclusion and inclusion in the in the 704 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,880 same kind of same conversation so yeah like purposeful 705 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,960 exclusion it sounds like uh trying to make a negative a 706 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,000 positive but in that in that sense definitely like you say 707 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,000 if it's not for that person then you don't really want kids 708 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,840 sort of hearing too much graphic sort of stuff about what's 709 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,480 going on in the world um unavoidable unfortunately these 710 00:37:54,480 --> 00:38:00,720 days but yes um yeah good point um the other so practical 711 00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:03,040 tips for designers if you i mean you've already shared 712 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,160 quite a few throughout the chat so um has there been any is 713 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,040 there anything on your mind at the moment that you know if 714 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,440 if it's a designer that's thinking about this space 715 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,280 accessibility um inclusive design but they might not have a 716 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,760 budget or they're doing things on their own as a side of 717 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,480 desk are there any sort of small things that you would say 718 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,240 will make a an impact and sort of start them on that 719 00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:30,080 journey yeah i guess you mentioned budget i hate the word 720 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,640 budget um i was really careful earlier to not say make it 721 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,960 pop yeah yeah i was going to say it's like uh yeah budget 722 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,240 impactful and engaging i hate them hate them all um in 723 00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:47,920 different ways um but i i honestly being useful in a kind 724 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,720 of a flippant comment is like don't waste energy kind of 725 00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:54,480 thinking about budget as particularly start starting up oh 726 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,960 it's a budget thing it's hard to control better um and just 727 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,960 think about some simple things that you can do and i i 728 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,760 think for for me when when i've done done occasional 729 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,320 freelance work over the well occasional but i've done lots 730 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,080 of freelance work over the years is kind of talking to 731 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,200 people that are genuinely around you and and you know 732 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,280 there's a lot of um statistics out there of how common 733 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:27,120 dyslexia is and different neurodiversity and um age like 734 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,720 like I'd highly recommend like there's a whole stint I 735 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:34,880 worked did some freelance work from the local library and 736 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:40,000 sitting in there whilst overhearing kind of the IT um kind 737 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,880 of tuition kind of one-to-one tuition the the amount of 738 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,440 invaluable insight I got from putting myself somewhere else 739 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,360 that wasn't typically my comfort zone like I know what 740 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:58,560 people like that are generally in my circle but putting 741 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,640 yourself somewhere else in kind of a library setting you 742 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:07,920 kind of come up with a you hear this insight that there was 743 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:14,400 a scenario where an older lady was having some tuition and 744 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,640 she was just simply trying to sort her online shopping out 745 00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:20,160 like Sainsbury's Tesco's whatever it was and she says I'm 746 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,280 always at this blocker like when I go on and it's always 747 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,640 asking me for an email I haven't got an email I've got a 748 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,720 Gmail how do I get an email and it was genuinely like that 749 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,600 those little bit you're not going to hear that kind of 750 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,000 you're not going to necessarily read articles or kind of 751 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,600 sit in a book or whatever it might be and around other 752 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:44,000 friends but actually sitting there and hearing that as a 753 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,240 designer I'm thinking okay what do I need to do what could 754 00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:50,560 I do but and it's just kind of that that that demographic 755 00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:53,600 and it's not an over generalization it was just that could 756 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,560 happen at any age is just the email gmail kind of thing 757 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,360 they're so close together it's like is it is there an F 758 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,280 mail I don't know is that EFG like what what what's the 759 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:10,240 difference here and that kind of those experiences really 760 00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:16,160 feed into kind of thinking about design in a kind of a new 761 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,040 way or not a new way an evolved way because you're kind of 762 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:21,840 thinking about different scenarios like sit at a bus stop 763 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,400 and just listen or go to a cafe and not put your your 764 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,360 headphones on for a bit like give yourself a break like 765 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,600 just listen and see where the frustrations are or see how 766 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,880 people interact at the shops and they're trying to kind of 767 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,120 read labels and kind of do that and see how people react to 768 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,320 certain adverts or getting into a football stadium or 769 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,800 whatever you kind of start to notice these little 770 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,000 experiences and then you think as a designer or somebody 771 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:52,000 who's involved in projects it's going how would you solve 772 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,600 it but aren't i grateful that i've witnessed that and i've 773 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,800 heard the frustration and i've heard when it works well and 774 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,920 that's another point is just to also recognize what does 775 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,480 work well and really celebrate that it's like do you know 776 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,440 what it was really i went to the cinema the other day it 777 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,600 was just really straightforward i didn't have to think 778 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,240 about getting in i i could find my seat really 779 00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:17,600 straightforward like bam bam bam and and i could enjoy 780 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,560 enjoy that which is a very simple thing or booking a 781 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,040 doctor's appointment or whatever it might be so it's all 782 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,360 also about those and yeah just being observant i guess 783 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,760 don't kind of overcomplicate it just sit and listen just 784 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,520 observe it's it's those real world experiences i suppose 785 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,320 but i think the problem not problem i'm not adding to your 786 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:41,600 lists of problems but i think the problem i see with that 787 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,200 is that so much of our lives is lived in our own little 788 00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,640 bubble a lot of it is online now a lot of it people are 789 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,560 walking down the road with their pods in on their phone so 790 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,440 they're not going to be but that's a great bit of advice 791 00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,240 it's actually almost like the gen z quote like go touch 792 00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:02,480 grass i think it's uh yeah pretty much it's quite nice new 793 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:06,160 audience for us you know hopefully but i think the um 794 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,840 absolutely having that real world experience hearing what 795 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,440 other people are going through and and giving a damn i 796 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,880 think as well and uh yeah perfect okay no that's really 797 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,840 good advice i'll um i'll keep telling people that's what 798 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,480 they need to do matt told me you need to just go outside 799 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,800 and touch grass touch grass go to the library just get away 800 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,840 from the algorithm for just half a minute and yeah that 801 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,720 maybe we'll touch on that in a minute but just get outside 802 00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:36,080 of your own algorithm which is great to a certain extent if 803 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,920 you're really interested in whatever films and sport and 804 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,160 whatever but to allow yourself or kind of force yourself to 805 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,960 go into that alternate setting it doesn't have to be 806 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,880 extreme just go into a shop that you've always walked past 807 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:55,120 like like just go and see and listen to what their 808 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,840 customers are interested in and whatever it might be um 809 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,200 yeah and open up and as a designer you're you're typically 810 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:05,040 going to work on a quite range of industry as well so 811 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,200 having that breadth of insight is is always going to be a 812 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:14,160 real benefit definitely perfect um and there we go so as 813 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:18,640 the design world evolves tools like figma a ai assisted 814 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,160 design now coming in uh there's a lot of worry around that 815 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,040 as well i think um in terms of who's going to have a job um 816 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,160 other than the robots uh new interface technologies and 817 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,680 things but is let's try and make it i guess positive if 818 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,680 possible but what's exciting you about the future of 819 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,720 inclusive design like where could it go or where's it going 820 00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:43,840 to have a really big impact do you think i think um yeah 821 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:50,160 going on the positive positive positive um it is uh a 822 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:54,800 couple of things um again trying to go on the positive side 823 00:44:54,960 --> 00:45:00,640 um is um uh metabolized it's really i'm so i'm so on the 824 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,520 fence i've got so many splinters sitting on the fence with 825 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,560 this but it's so nuanced and there's so many different 826 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:11,280 scenarios to you it's like it's almost like when um someone 827 00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,040 goes oh what do you think of the internet what do you mean 828 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:19,600 the internet like this it's so broad and i'm at an age 829 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,720 where i just didn't feel that kind of introduction of 830 00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:26,240 internet as but our ai is that equivalent it's like what do 831 00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:29,760 you think to it like it's big it's broad it's complex it's 832 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,280 nuanced it's all this kind of thing um we're going on some 833 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,720 positive examples i've seen of ai inclusion let's go there 834 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:46,320 is um so uh some chat with uh hector minto um um he's one 835 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,360 to one to follow on linkedin if you've not already come 836 00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:54,080 across him um and we were talking about dementia and the 837 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:59,840 metaglasses so um other brands are available but it was 838 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:06,080 kind of uh in the scenario where a patient uh is wearing 839 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:11,360 these glasses and as a carer or somebody going in um to 840 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,640 check up on a an elderly relative or somebody you generally 841 00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:18,320 care for is like have has this person been in to see you 842 00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,000 today insert name it's like no no it's like and then say 843 00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,760 hey meta have you um has that person come in it's like yes 844 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,920 they have or no they haven't and it's a real kind of 845 00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:33,440 interesting opportunity to kind of be the supportive memory 846 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,480 and as trying to stay away from all the black mirror stuff 847 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,840 because this isn't we haven't got time to go my full depth 848 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:44,240 analysis of metaglasses and the data breaches and stuff but 849 00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:46,960 i thought that would really interest as a conversation 850 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:52,160 start kind of actually the opportunity there in terms of 851 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,160 helping memory and helping that um maybe palliative care or 852 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,840 whatever it might be it's like it's really helpful insight 853 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:06,240 um and uh i think there's yeah other examples of where you 854 00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:10,000 know there's within any organization there's always a 855 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:14,320 document to read it's typically quite complex and long and 856 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:19,120 actually having ai overview summaries can be really helpful 857 00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:23,600 it won't obviously need to depend on what model you're 858 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,800 using but it's a really good overview of just saying okay 859 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:31,200 this is the general tone and this is kind of what this 860 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,320 thing's about and I think that's really going to help more 861 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,840 and more people be part of a part of conversation and it's 862 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:42,000 not then reliant on the speed in which they read and kind 863 00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,960 of the language and whether it's first like native language 864 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:47,200 second language search or whatever it might be it's kind of 865 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,960 a really kind of opportunity to kind of bring some of that 866 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,960 maybe those simple opportunities into a space where they 867 00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,800 can contribute to conversation and like the live 868 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:05,600 translation of the language is awesome um but yeah I mean 869 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,640 the data breach thing is is where we go into black mirror 870 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,720 and horrible scenarios but there's really beautiful and I 871 00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:14,960 think this is where I really like it is just beautiful 872 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,240 moments of helping an individual be included in something 873 00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:22,080 and not feel left outside and I think that's probably where 874 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,440 my take is for the positive angle. 875 00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,160 I love that because there are going to be an awful lot of 876 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,800 positives on the application of AI. 877 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,360 I think that we just need to not get too carried away and 878 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:34,320 use it for everything. 879 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,240 A lot of people saying no code solutions or getting AI to 880 00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:41,360 develop everything without a consideration of human 881 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:41,920 experience. 882 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:48,240 But some people have described AI as a visually impaired 883 00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:52,640 user at times because technically it is a program that does 884 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,080 it have the human experience of sight, you know, 885 00:48:56,240 --> 00:48:57,600 so it's interesting. 886 00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,280 What I would say on that, doing overviews of documents, 887 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,040 we have to obviously recruitment, 888 00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,400 procurement teams we're talking to all the time and reading 889 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:07,120 long documents. 890 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:10,160 My boss Jane is actually doing a speed reading course at 891 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,560 the moment to try and quicken up. 892 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,200 But AI has come in really handy, like you say, 893 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,960 and it to de-jargonize, I don't think that's a real word, 894 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:20,400 but I'm making it one. 895 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:26,000 Or explain a document back to you at a level that you might 896 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,320 understand it, but it's getting your prompt accurate. 897 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:29,840 You know, you have to sort of say, 898 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,400 only use the information in this document. 899 00:49:32,720 --> 00:49:36,800 Do not make assumptions or give sources from the internet. 900 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,200 So it's very useful. 901 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:46,000 And I think it's the known that it's that balance of AI is 902 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:46,720 still a robot. 903 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,440 And if I think you kind of still, in your mind's eye, 904 00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:53,920 as human as it might sound, it still kind of hasn't. 905 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,200 I had a quote from a, I'm going to butcher this now, 906 00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,080 but it's a leading creative from an agency. 907 00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:00,480 It's like, 908 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,240 AI's never had their heart broken or fallen in love or been 909 00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:07,040 bullied or been welcomed or been excluded. 910 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:14,160 So in terms of understanding how kind of humanity works and 911 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,120 behavior and kind of psychology and kind of the development 912 00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:20,080 and kind of learning from its mistakes and going somewhere. 913 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:24,080 I don't think it will ever reach that because it is so 914 00:50:24,240 --> 00:50:24,880 nuanced. 915 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:26,960 And I just love that idea of like, hey, 916 00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,240 I've never fallen in love or broken up and then kind of 917 00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:30,800 fallen in love. 918 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,200 It's just such a nice, nice thing. 919 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:37,120 But from like systematic process, summarize this, blah, 920 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:37,440 blah, blah. 921 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:37,920 Yes, 922 00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:41,760 I can see it working and automating that kind of thing. 923 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:46,160 But when it comes into kind of replicating human behavior 924 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,800 or an emotion, you feel that kind of slight difference. 925 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,000 And it's another example where it's the difference 926 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:56,240 sometimes between Coca-Cola and Pepsi. 927 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:57,840 Like, you know, there's a difference, 928 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,000 but sometimes you just don't know, 929 00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:04,800 but you just don't trust it, like whichever way it goes. 930 00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:06,560 But yeah, 931 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:11,120 AI will never kind of replace that humanity aspect. 932 00:51:12,240 --> 00:51:15,760 I think I know a few people that would argue with you about 933 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,040 the difference between Pepsi and Coca-Cola or even actually 934 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,920 original versus Diet Coke because I can't taste the 935 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:22,240 difference. 936 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:23,920 I think it's all taste the same. 937 00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,960 We shall extend this podcast and we shall have a good solid 938 00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:28,320 debate about that. 939 00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:30,640 Coca-Cola, Coke Zero, Diet Coke. 940 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:31,680 Yeah, there's a... 941 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:32,320 All the same. 942 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:32,880 Yeah. 943 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:36,800 Amazing. 944 00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:38,960 Right, so that brings me to final thoughts, Matt. 945 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,400 So thank you so much for spending some time with me. 946 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:47,200 I know that you've got a lot going on yourself as well. 947 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:48,240 So I really appreciate it. 948 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:49,360 But before we wrap up, 949 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,360 is there anything you'd like to leave with listeners? 950 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,560 Is there a message of your own or a mindset that you'd like 951 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:58,480 more designers to have when they come or take forward when 952 00:51:58,480 --> 00:51:59,920 it comes to accessibility? 953 00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,960 The biggest thing for me, 954 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,800 and I suppose it's going right back to the first question, 955 00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,480 it's like that kind of Eureka moment of kind of finding a 956 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,880 word, finding a book, finding a person. 957 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,600 And I really encourage people just to start, honestly, 958 00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,560 just, I mean, if you're listening to this podcast, welcome. 959 00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:20,960 Hello. 960 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:22,640 That's a good, good start. 961 00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:27,200 You've had the words digital and accessibility in into 962 00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:27,520 somewhere. 963 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:28,400 So that's good. 964 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,920 And I encourage then those people to, again, 965 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,720 like go onto all the social media networks and stuff like 966 00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:34,800 that. 967 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,920 And or kind of all your bookstores and things like that, 968 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,560 just type in all those kind of key words, accessibility, 969 00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:44,800 inclusion, exclusion, ableism, disability, 970 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,160 and all these kind of these words and see what comes up and 971 00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,240 find your way into it. 972 00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:54,720 Not all of it has to be kind of big and complicated and you 973 00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:57,120 have to read everything to have an opinion and have an 974 00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:57,600 approach. 975 00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,760 There is some really simple ways of getting into it. 976 00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,920 And maybe that is just simply following somebody who is an 977 00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:10,400 accessibility person or an agency that does this stuff on a 978 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,720 daily basis and kind of posting kind of, 979 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:13,600 this is really good. 980 00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:14,720 We're at this event. 981 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:16,160 It's like go to that event. 982 00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,120 So it's a kind of just, I guess, 983 00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,640 just start and be the other side of kind of being, 984 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,160 be willing to evolve and be challenged and be wrong 985 00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:26,640 sometimes. 986 00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:27,680 But, you know, 987 00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:31,680 just make sure you put something out there and it's, it's, 988 00:53:34,240 --> 00:53:35,520 yeah, just, yeah, 989 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:41,920 putting something out there that can really kind of make 990 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:43,280 sure that nobody kind of, 991 00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:47,360 or fewer people get left excluded. 992 00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,880 So much punchier if that was a much more concise sentence, 993 00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:52,240 but you get the point. 994 00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:54,480 We'll get AI to make it sure. 995 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:55,440 We'll get AI. 996 00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:55,840 Yeah, 997 00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,040 just get rid of all the uhs and ums and we'll cut this 998 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:01,520 podcast down to about 13 minutes. 999 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,560 No, it wouldn't be human, though, would it, Matt? 1000 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:05,760 Exactly. 1001 00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:07,360 And that's the beauty, right? 1002 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:08,880 We are people. 1003 00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:10,080 Absolutely. 1004 00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:11,040 Well, I appreciate that. 1005 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,720 And absolutely, you know, it's such a welcoming community, 1006 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:16,880 as you hopefully have found as well. 1007 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:19,520 There's so much sharing, knowledge sharing. 1008 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:25,200 And it's just really nice to feel that you're no longer one 1009 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:26,400 person trying to do it all. 1010 00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,200 There are a lot of people out there currently trying to 1011 00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:33,760 make the world more inclusive in all aspects of it as well. 1012 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,200 So, no, but really appreciate your time as always, Matt. 1013 00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:38,000 It's always a pleasure. 1014 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:41,760 I'm sure we could have carried on for another good couple 1015 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:42,320 of hours. 1016 00:54:42,720 --> 00:54:44,400 And maybe we will once we stop recording. 1017 00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:46,240 But thank you so much. 1018 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:48,960 And yeah, I'm sure we'll catch up again soon. 1019 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:49,920 Thank you very much. 1020 00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:50,640 Cheers