Tom McGillicuddy

I do feel that if my family had let me know, and I'd have known that I could have actually helped, could have really helped, because I kind of had a conversation with him.

Alex

Welcome to stories of men beneath the surface. I'm Alex Melia. Join me as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

Today we're talking about loss, fatherhood, and using tragedy to spur us on. When Tom was a baby, his biological father, Tony left the family. So Tom was raised in Wigan by his mum and her new partner, Sean, the man who Tom calls his dad. But when Tom was 14, Tony came back into his life, and the pair of them struck up a meaningful relationship. It was more a friendship than a father son dynamic. They would go to football matches and gigs together. But all that came to an end when Tom was 20 and just started his third year at Lancaster University.

Tom McGillicuddy

We were sat down with him room playing pro EVO or FIFA, another couple of drinks, and we were kind of getting tuned into the night beginning performers next week on the couch and my side, lighten up. My mom's drinking my mama, Molly rings me when she really needs me. I knew it was serious, straight away, and answered it. And she had the same tone of voice as when I've been found out as a kid for doing something wrong. And she said to me, Hey, Tom, love. I'm sorry about passing bad news. She said, Tony, he's, he's been found that. And that was the first sentence out of my mouth. I was confused. Basically, I didn't really know it's impossible to take that kind of news and really get it sunk into your mind when the sentence is said, I feel like I'm in a movie. None of this feels real. I couldn't fully engage in it. Numbness a little bit shock men, they know. My mom just said regular Grandma, I went straight from that conversation. My mom, I spoke to my grandma. At this point, I'd walked into the back alley, where the house was, it was nighttime in Lancaster, Windsor. And I was just in the cold in the rain outside phone call. And my grandma just kept saying sorry, sorry, I'm so sorry. And it was later that found out they have taken his own life. He's living on his own in his flat. And kind of unbeknownst to me, he developed some, you know, alcohol and drug issues. Here hearing my grandmother upset was always difficult for me. I was devastated at that moment. devastated. Not just because, you know, he'd passed because I knew she was upset, and she was distraught. And it was affecting her. That was one of the worst moments in my life in terms of how I felt, because I couldn't help I couldn't do anything I could say anything to you just been dealt with awful news, which is said son had died. She was a person I cared about deeply. I didn't know what to do with myself. And I was about to go on a night out. And I went and had some drinks with my friends. And then I stopped. I started to get upset. My girlfriend at the time was like, I think you should go home and she started getting upset. And I went home. And then I just felt this like I had to go back to work. I had to go back to work.

Alex

I think because of the environments that we've been brought up in yourself in we're gonna myself In additon is men don't cry, men don't show vulnerability, is it just you just didn't know how to show your emotions. So it was just kind of this inlays of an onion and your vulnerabilities right in that centre of that, what was it for you? On some level, I

Tom McGillicuddy

didn't have emotions, and they developed later. Otherwise, I didn't know how to express the emotions that I did have. And then I also felt it best to just get on with things and not really tell anybody about anything. And a part of me felt like he shouldn't express them. Because I have this dynamic, where I have my dad and I have my mom. And I had a great upbringing in a fantastic life. Very, very happy. I have this other factor, which is the story about my, my, my biological father and him leaving my mom, etc. But I was too young to ever remember any of that. And I've just grown up in an exceptionally happy environment. And then this things happened, which on the surface, sounds awful to someone on the outside. But I'm like, I've got a mum and dad, and I've got a stable background. So should I be feeling anything at all. So that was kind of the the layers that were going through my mind. And the crazy thing is, I was at university. That was the first week of third year. When I went into third year, I was sitting on a two one, I finished my third year with the first. That's how affected I felt at the time. I finished that. I then went travelling South America with mates at uni. I didn't even remember talking about this once and during that, given I was, you know, four or five months, and then came back started my career at Barclays on the graduate scheme. And then after six months they sent me to live in Hong Kong. And it was when I was living on my own in Hong Kong in a one bedroom flat on the was out of the world. That's that is to experience emotions. And I didn't know what they were. And I didn't know where they were from. But now I now I realise it was that was me beginning to grieve. I was away from everybody, I was away from any expectation, I was away from having to hide what I was feeling because I was, I was on my own, most of that time, being in a box with my own emotions for eight months in Hong Kong is how I how I experience. And when I came back, I knew I wasn't, I wasn't fully the same in a good way because I processed it. But I realised what everyone meant to me, and that it was okay to feel these things for him. And that part of my life and my family, and they do not take away from my dad, they're two separate things. They're both compatible, it's okay to have felt that for him. And it's okay to know that my dad is my dad, and I see him as my dad, not anything else. There were moments in that period where I'd be on a night out, and I'd walk home on my own. And it hasn't been like a moment, there is a feeling towards this situation, but I was late, had had something to drink. And occasionally I would ring hit my biological father's mobile number, just you know, that obviously knew I wasn't functioning and functioning anymore. But I'd bring it when I was walking home alone kind of thing. So so I knew something was probably under the surface. And sometimes it takes me to sit with myself to figure out how I'm feeling about something. And still to this day, even though I now I think I've become better at being emotionally in tune and most consumed with myself and a little bit with others. And by no means anywhere near good or perfect. But even now, when something happens, I need to really figure out how I feel about it. And that's, I think that's my natural reaction is numbness in the moment or even even prolonged periods after,

Alex

do you feel a sense of, I have to lock that away, and I'm not allowed to show my my emotions.

Tom McGillicuddy

So now I'm, you know, a 34 year old, ageing, wrinkly man, like, I feel much more comfortable sharing my emotions. Now. Sometimes I don't have them, genuinely now. And now I know that is a genuine part of me. Sometimes I experienced them, but not the extremes. You know, my girlfriend will say that I'm like, I'm always I'm always like seven, eight out of 10. You know, on the spectrum kind of thing. I'm never probably 10 out of 10 I'm very rarely like a two or three. I'm always like on an even keel. So I, I feel comfortable expressing my emotions. Like for example, when my when my biological mom died, my grandma, I was exceptionally close to her. You know, since from day Doc, you know, the mean that and I've had my biological father's dad as well, exceptionally close to them. It was some of the greatest people you could ever meet. And when and when they died, especially my grandma, I was I was crying straightaway cried at the funeral. I was there was no hiding for me what I felt for that woman, you know what I mean? And I was, I was older. But I was like, 2728 at the time. And she meant everything to me. Everything to me and there. But I think by then I was comfortable expressing myself properly, I think. And there was more in tune with what actually affected me or not. So now, I think not that much affects me emotionally. Now. It's mainly family related stuff like my close family. But now I'm more comfortable expressing that when it does happen. I think it's probably because I went through that, that period where I couldn't, and then it burst kind of open.

Alex

What was the turning point for you to actually start unleashing the emotions that you had instead of blocking them away, and then not speaking about it for a long time? Yeah,

Tom McGillicuddy

it's interesting. I don't ever remember being in this one moment. But that period of time, and as it is that period of time, and then there was soul searching after that period of time. And then I got into things like that, as it probably four years of meditation, you know, after Hong Kong, they're having a hard time sleeping. And I put that down to not being able to process what I was actually feeling and thinking. And I think, speaking to certain friends, trying to do mindfulness practices for that period of time, helped me really think about meditation, I don't really do it as much anymore, because I don't feel the same call into it. It's not that I don't do anything that's meditative. I just don't do it in a formal setting like that. But I think it allowed me more time to be with myself and my own emotions. And when I was doing that for 20 minutes, the same things would come to me, the same things would come to me. And I think it just allowed my own mind to kind of just slowly piece things together and say, this is fine, and you can, like, you're not a bad person for feeling these things for that person. It doesn't mean these things towards that person either. And these things can all exist kind of together. And now, it just helped me I think piece it together like, like sleep helps you solve problems in a way. I felt like the meditation for this period of time has helped my mind relax and understand what I was thinking and what I was going through. So I think Hong Kong at the time I spent the It opened the door for me to be able to then go and do that and piece things together.

Alex

I listened to an interview with Gary Neville when his father died, he would catch himself wringing his dad and then realise it on what we're doing. And it was a similar kind of thing with you that your, your biological father, Tony is in your subconscious.

Tom McGillicuddy

Yeah, there is a share, like, with shareable moments in our life with each other, there was never a father son dynamic. And that's what made it harder. Like, imagine one of your best mates just killed themselves. But there's all these other like, layers to it. You know, it's a complicated, you know, a friend that you've got, because of the family situation, he was a big part of my life and you know, in whatever way you want to, you want to frame it. And so then it was gone, when I was in those moments when I was on my own is a natural inclination to try and try and speak and connect. And I still felt at that time. If only I'd known if only I'd known that was all those years that was on my mind, I think if only I had said something, if I'd have known. And I think that would that played into it, you know, in trying to kind of contact him in some way, even though I knew I obviously couldn't contact him. And I still feel to this day, not in looking back and regrets kind of way. But I do feel that if my family had let me know. And I'd have known that I could have actually helped, I could have really helped, because I kind of had the conversation with him. And I could have helped him. I'm not saying that I could have saved him in that kind of respect. But I'm saying that he could, we could have talked with each other. And it was such that he probably didn't talk to anybody about about what was going on. Maybe he's maybe his best mate, who I'm still really, really closely connected with even the guy that found him, and that told my grandparents. But maybe, maybe not ultimately, and my family were trying to protect me from knowing the truth. And understand why they did that. Because I was only 2420 I felt like a fully grown man. I don't know how you felt when he was 20 Even though necessarily even though I know now it wasn't. But at 20 I thought I could handle anything. And if only they told me I could have had a chat with him, it would have been alright, it was my perspective. At the time. I

Alex

want to talk a little bit about your grandma, because what is it about grandsons and their grandmas and the relationship there.

Tom McGillicuddy

My grandma was one of these like, old school women in the sense that she was loving, she was caring she was she was she was like an angel to me. She was hard as nails, but I was doing a reading at a funeral. And I was like, I'm fine, you know, me or whatever. And I saw my grandmother, the first ever time cry, I think got upset because of what was going on. I got upset because my grandma's upset. And that was probably the most other than her funeral. It was the most time I've cried any other time in my life was seeing her cry. That was like a, like a shot in the heart for me. I've never, I've never experienced any emotion like that.

Alex

You said before the fact that your biological father died. And then immediately, your scores went from to one to first. So clearly, you worked a lot harder. And then you've been on this relentless sort of path of excellence, I suppose in what you've done in the finance sector, and then creating your own successful company. What made you go for the 212. First, was it seemingly that you tried harder, or you worked harder?

Tom McGillicuddy

I think the work ethic predates anything, you know, anything that happened to me when I was 20. And it comes from my mom and dad that brought me up. But my mum was very, very disciplined with me, when I was a kid. Growing up in Wigan, or you know, places like it was a chance you end up in trouble with the people that you're friends with, and you know, messing around after school. So my mum never left that to chance. I was at a sporting club, whether it was there'll be a football every single night, and every day, the weekend, before I'd have my tea at night, you'd make me sit on the kitchen counter and recite my times tables flawlessly, all the way up to a nines if I messed up and start again. So I just became this like, she just created this like, work right monster. And I've always been a workhorse basically is how, you know a glorified workhorse who's learned to love learning. And I think in a way after what happened when I when I was 20. That was a way of just taking my mind off, everything was just gonna work. I'm going to work, I'm going to work, I'm going to learn, I'm going to get the best possible score I can. That's why I was remained as a part of me that experienced the shape that because I threw myself in stuff even more. When I was in Hong Kong, for example, to medicate what was going on. I got the gym twice a day, seven days a week. I think at one point that was take my mind off stuff, please also who I am, I just dove into who I am

Alex

fascinating. You've got men who deal with certain things in the life, big moments, family, friends, whatever. And you've got this, I'll go down the masculine route or go down the more feminine route. And in this situation, you went down the masculine route of I'm going to be even more relentless. This has added fuel to my fire, but to actually take that more considered feminine route, which I don't think it should be considered feminine, but it is in society of I'm going to be vulnerable. I'm going to let my emotions I'm going to tell people how I'm feeling. Why do we Don't go down that route. Why did you not go down that route? Yeah,

Tom McGillicuddy

I suppose I never even thought it was an option for me not like, it wasn't like I assessed the two routes and felt like, oh, society doesn't want me to go down that route, it would prefer me to go down this route. I just did what I felt was innate. Within me. It was like, what I'm doing what I'm doing. And I don't even really care why I turn on my emotions or my emotional responses to things that are that are productive, or healthy. As a sport as a business, I could have easily gone drunk a lot. But that wasn't who I was, I could have easily gone and turned to drugs. But that's never been me. I turned obsessively to something else. It just so happens that that something else was constructive and useful.

Alex

When I've had difficult situations in my life, when I've gone down the masculine route, I feel like it's hurt me, it's been to my detriment. So I had some kind of pain in my life in 20 to 23 years old, didn't speak to my mum for about nine months, and I did the Hong Kong marathon, and you can do a marathon or you can do an Ironman. And if your Y is built on something positive, or something whole about yourself, but mine was just about pain. Mine was about fighting that pain. And it was very unhealthy to do that. And actually, it just didn't, it wasn't good for me.

Tom McGillicuddy

Yeah, it's interesting, because I don't think I did that. I don't think I did the Half Ironman or the Ironman for any wholesome reason, either. I think I did it for an element of status, if I'm honest, and an element of proving to myself, I can do it. And it was an awful period of my life. What was good was the day after I did the Ironman, and when I finished it, and I was proud of how I performed on that day. And I was proud ultimately at the time that I got. But I never want to do it again.

Alex

Any points in that training? Did you have the picture of your biological father in your head? Do you think that kind of fueled the fire in some way?

Tom McGillicuddy

I think maybe maybe a little bit, but not in a major way, I think he would have been proud. It would have been proud that I did that. There isn't one person in my family who drives me more than the others. They're all there in my head, my grandparents. And you know, my parents are my biological father.

Alex

The last thread that we're going to talk about today is the biggest killer of men under 50 is suicide. When you think back to the time with your biological father, Tony, you said before that you felt that you could have had that conversation with him. Does that still come into your head now? And how have you have you learned to deal with that? Is it an element of acceptance? Because this is a massive issue in society? And a lot of people who do take their lives? They don't tell anybody?

Tom McGillicuddy

Yeah, they don't tell me about it. It still annoys me, it still frustrates me less than it did, you know, because of time, but I felt mature at 20. And I felt like I could have had that conversation. Because I understand him. I do understand him deeply. Even even though I only really knew him for a short period of time, I felt like I have a really good understanding of him. And I felt that as a consequence, I could have at least had a conversation with him. And that maybe would have never changed anything. Ultimately, what I would have taken that away from from what if you know what I mean? So I feel like I have children, which are which I want to do, I will treat them like, like adults. And we're not going to tell them everything about every single little thing. But this was a, this is a big thing that was going on that I felt I deserved to know. But maybe he didn't want me to know that. I don't know that. Maybe he was the one driving, you know, the silence on it. And if that's the case, then there's nothing I could have done.

Alex

The alcohol for a lot of people is like a numbing agent. Did you ever find that what that what he was using the alcohol for?

Tom McGillicuddy

I think it was a nomination. And what he was numbing, really was was what had happened to him and hid in his life after he left me basically. So what what what happened was, he obviously gone, he'd lost my mom for another woman. They then settled down and kind of got married and had a kid. And then that woman had left him later on. And he had it and he'd left we're gonna go live the way. And then his mind. He sacrificed his whole life and in working for this new marriage, and then that had gone away from him. And he was left with nothing, basically. And so he wasn't left in a family kind of unit. And that was what affected him. And so it's understood in a way, so understandable how that would affect someone emotionally sad, like he'd lost his purpose. He'd lost his purpose. And I think he felt like he'd risked everything for this new thing. And the new thing hadn't worked out. And now he was left with neither, you know, so. And he probably probably the element of him came back to Wigan saw me with my family and with a dad and happy that made him realise that he'd missed that bit, you know, and he was never going to be that, you know, for me, I don't know that for sure. But I mean, it's natural that you probably would have felt like that in some way.

Alex

Seems like you had a really strong connection and still do with your father Shawn.

Tom McGillicuddy

The reason why I've never really talked about this publicly or, you know, before because I'm protective of my dad's feelings because he's honestly the greatest motivator than that. And I'm very fortunate that I've met him. And he's also my dad. And I've mean that at the bottom of my heart is the greatest thing that ever happened to me, my mom, and especially at that moment in time, just those two. So it's just one part of this conversation that gets me emotionally talking about him because he means so much to me. He stepped in when all that happened. He was helping organise the funeral of my biological dad, he helped. So as a stay out, I helped sort out all sorts of things. It's just the selflessness of him. The humour, He's the first person hiring, if I have good news, if I have a problem, and that's just testament to the man is an absolute colossal,

Alex

man, what have you taken? What have you taken from your father, Shawn?

Tom McGillicuddy

I think he, he's the kind of guy that if I rang him now and said, I need you to come and come and do this slowly. It just dropped by it was doing up there in a second. Now he's retired as well. I've become so much closer to Him. Because we spend more time together, we share the same humour. And I think we share a lot of outlook on life and an outlook on the world. And my I think calmness comes from him. And I think he is the he is also like the ultimate family person. And I think that comes from him, too. And he was the one when I told my parents about going starting a business. He was supportive. And during the hard times that we've experienced with the business, which you do when you start a business, he's been the one who's like, you know, nothing ventured, nothing gained. You carry on, you can you can do that kind of thing.

Alex

What's the last thing today is what's the pin tweet that you got on your Twitter page?

Tom McGillicuddy

My pin tweet on Twitter, but I'm going to read it exactly. Word for word. So you can see you can see it was from my dad, it made me laugh. As soon as I read it. He said, I go every now and again. My dad asked me, how's your little venture going live? Like I'm selling homemade lemonade on the streets, people who are by? Yeah, that's what he doesn't do that.

Alex

I love that because there's a beautiful innocence to it isn't the Yeah,

Tom McGillicuddy

yeah. There is like, I mean, it's not an innocent. There is there is like a, there is a there is a purity to him. There's a purity to my dad. It's just so honest, and so good to my mama to me and my sister. And so all his friends everyone around him. He's when he walks into a room, you know, everyone's happier really is and, and he's the most well meaning guy use us other than that there's never an ulterior motive. There's never an SI can be, you know, half of that

Alex

it's undeniable that there's a unique bond between father and son. Our fathers can take a lot of credit for teaching us how to be a man in today's age. Tom, stepfather Sean has really done that for him. I've had a fairly similar situation to Tom, where I've got two fathers. My stepfather has been with me since I was pretty much born. And my biological father, I see every two to three years, who was more like a friend. I really respect the way that Tom was able to hold and honour both relationships in his life. And that when his biological father Tony came into his life, he didn't substitute his stepfather, Shawn for him. For me personally with my own biological father. I felt like because I only saw him every two to three years. It was like the shiny object syndrome, or the novelty factor of being able to play football with him do things with him, were really the day in day out fatherly duties were done by my stepfather. The relationships in our life don't always appear how we're conditioned to think they should. father figures are not always as they look on TV. There's room in our lives for all sorts of different male role models. After knowing Tom for a few years now, I've always respected his work ethic. He's incredibly goal driven guy. And I've wondered what was the motivator for him what really drove him to be who he is. And I only knew just as we were about to record this podcast that this had happened to his biological father. This then immediately made me think that he was driven and motivated because of the death of his biological father, as Tom did, and like a lot of men do when loved ones in our lives die. We push and grind in our work even more. So. Is this really the healthiest thing that we could be doing? Or could we just give ourselves some time and space to breathe and just to be instead of do and not just throw ourselves into work and distractions, so that we can really feel those feelings and grieve for our loved ones properly? And I love this quote from a woman called Marissa Pierre and she says, feel the feeling until it can no longer be felt