You are listening to the we need to Talk About Oscar podcast.

And this is our conversation with Timothy Bogart, writer, director of the film Juliet and Romeo.

Ultimately, as we were starting to really talk about how do we communicate the message of this movie, the name Verona was a little tricky, right, for people to go, oh, but I know what it's really about.

Some people just thought maybe it was more about vacations or more about that one town.

What I wanted to start with is after writing and directing Spinning Gold, which was to my knowledge, deeply personal to you as it told your father's story.

After that, what drew you to tackle Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, one of the ultimate classics, next?

I mean, these two seem like radically different creative endeavors, which oftentimes makes sense.

Of course.

You know, it's interesting.

They certainly you look at a period piece that took place in this in the 60s and the 70s about the music at har.

R rated, right?

Like serious, kind of different kind of piece versus what we.

Of course, different pieces.

However, I think the core you would find in both of them is how much I believe music inspires our real world and our real life.

You know, I mean, I think you go down the street and someone's on headphones listening to music and they're singing, or you look at driving and they're listening to music.

So music as not just a background, but music as sort of one of the driving components of our emotional world, I think has always been true.

And it's something I think is consistent system in both movies where we really tried to look at music and its impact on the human being differently and approach it differently.

One is definitely these are real artists.

So okay.

Of course, in Spinning Gold we were able to approach it like, this is the real Gladys Knight singing and this is what that would look like versus how do you approach musicals, right?

And how do we have people do it in a true musical light like Juliet, Romeo?

I do think, though, the other thing that is a little bit funny and true in our business is you never know what's going to come first.

And in truth, both of these projects, of all the things I've worked on my 35 year career, have always been like a daily ritual of how am I moving these two boulders up the hill?

And it just so happened, ultimately happened first.

It could have just as easily happened that Julian Brona happened first because they were both projects that spoke to me so personally that even though they were different, I think the core infrastructure of them and the core reason for why I think would respond to Them was the same.

And it's just that Juliet and Romeo came first.

But in terms of the why that one.

Obviously spending gold as a personal, truly personal story with my dad that we understand kind of.

Kind of how a child will feel that burden on them for their whole life, by the way.

Oh, my God, what are you going to make your dad's story?

So that was one thing.

But the truth about Julian and Romeo is it's a play, Romeo and Julia play, Shakespeare's play, that I have directed on stage many times over my career.

And so as a.

As a filmmaker, as a television maker, while I was moving through my career, I did keep going back to directing stage.

And Julian and Romeo and Juliet was always one of my favorite pieces because I felt the themes were so resonant to the audience today.

I think the miraculous truth that the same themes of being a young person struggling in the world, that doesn't get you and you don't get it, have never been more relevant than they are today.

And so every time I would direct it on stage, it would always struggle.

I would always struggle a little bit going, gosh, I know this is how he wrote it.

I just wish we could address kind of this modern life or I wish we could go a little bit further into that.

That is really interesting that he explored, but maybe not as far.

And so there was always a part of me when directing a stage play where I would sit there and watch the audience going.

I can see in their eyes just kind of going, it'd be interesting this time if it went a little bit this way or went a little bit that way.

And that was always in my head about something that if I could figure out another way in, I thought it could be incredibly powerful.

And the truth about this particular story.

Years and years and years ago, I remember sitting with my brother, Evan Bogart, who wrote all the music with his partner, Justin Gray.

I remember talking to him specifically about.

Because I was in the process of really struggling with this one and trying to get Juliet and Romeo going.

I remember talking about, why do we think Shakespeare used to.

I am a pentameter, right?

It was such an interesting version of language.

Why do we think he did that?

And I remember in the conversation with my brother Evan, he's like, you know, because that was whether he created or not the poetry of its time.

I said, you know, and I think that that's true.

And he said, ed, pop music said, maybe you don't like pop music, but pop music is the poetry of our time.

And if you look at young kids and young people.

They are attached to this kind of current pop music as a way to truly express themselves.

And that parallel between what Shakespeare was trying to do to reach his audience and what we felt we could do to reach ours, I felt was fascinating.

And that really became the launching pad for that one, even though it was always in my head of, I want to do something more with this.

And, yeah, that's for the title itself, since I'm just realizing that it's an entire back and forth, even for you.

And that's true, that's true.

And it's.

I don't even know whether I would call it the subtle but absolutely significant change that, yes, it immediately signals that it's something different.

But, you know, and Aaron, just to that point about the title, because we wrestle with that a lot.

Early on, I had actually called the film Verona because I knew that it was a much larger piece that we were making.

Not just one film, but three, but a much larger story.

We were telling about the time and the place, not just the specific of Romeo and Juliet, but even the other characters that don't get as much play in the play.

But I always wanted to be bigger.

Ultimately, as we were starting to really talk about how do we communicate the message of this movie, the name Verona was a little tricky, right, for people to go, oh, but I know what it's really about.

Some people just thought maybe it was more about vacations or more about that one town.

And so we kept trying to think of different ways.

We didn't want to lose the names Romeo and Juliet, because, my goodness, that's the story I'm telling.

It just meant to be more.

And from the very beginning, I always believed, right or wrong, that especially for today's audience.

But even if you went back in time, Shakespeare wrote about real life that he thought occurred based on a whole bunch of source material that he had received.

But real life was very different in 1301 than today.

Age is different.

There's a different world.

And so I always felt the character of Juliet specifically never felt that she had as much agency as I felt that this character, if they were really in that situation, might have had.

Maybe their families would have been tough against them, but they certainly would have fought back against these things.

I thought they were a little bit young, and again, for that time, that made sense.

But my God, hundreds of years later, 14 years old is different.

Today, that's a different thing.

And so I was trying to come up with, how do we tell the audience it is the story that you know, but you're in for something different.

And it was literally that idea that just goes, well, this is the story, you know, it's different.

And so that was the idea, something as simple as that, to just make you think, huh, I wonder what that is.

So that was the hope and the design of the time.

A quick thought.

Yes.

Did this mean anything for, for example, the call sheet?

No, no, no, not at all.

Because I didn't even come up with the switch really until, you know, six months ago or so, when we really decided how we wanted to do that.

So when we shot it, when we made it, and even during the years of post production visual effects and music, it was all Verona.

And then eventually started to go.

Verona's Romeo and Juliet.

That wasn't quite right.

That's many words.

So it's a little while to get there.

But no, not on the call sheet.

Everybody on the call sheet.

Didn't matter if it was Rebel Wilson, Jason Isaacs, everybody came to be part of this wonderful, like Shakespeare did in his day.

But this troupe of actors, and they all felt very, I mean, these kids and these adults, every night we would finish filming at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning.

They all go out to breakfast, dinner, whatever you call it.

They all fell so in love with each other.

They were running the days together.

There was no, like, call sheet feeling of that.

It really felt that we captured that sense of Shakespearean troupe, which was really always something I'd hoped to do.

Kind of this wonderful group of actors.

Yeah.

And on the note of changing stuff, thanks to the source material once again being so widely known, audiences, of course, come with such strong preconceptions about this story.

What was it like for you to play with those expectations?

Well, that's everything, right?

So you could be hated by people.

Don't touch the original text.

Or if you're going to touch, how do you change it?

The irony about.

I think.

I think the irony of the people saying, don't touch the text is twofold.

First of all, Romeo and Juliet is arguably the most adapted piece of text perhaps ever in the English language.

I mean, obviously the Bible is a bigger story, but it's not like it's been adapted that as many times.

Romeo and Juliet has been adapted so many times in so many different ways.

I mean, even people drawing connections to the current Broadway hit and Juliet is a whole different take.

Now they think, oh, you're using pop music.

No, we're using original music and a very different approach on musicality.

To be in our voice different.

But it's not like Baz Luhrmann didn't adapt.

You know, they had no swords, they were guns, they had no horses, they were carts.

So it's always been adapted and that's always been.

I think part of what makes Romeo and Juliet so alive and so contemporary is that people continue to be able to look at it from different angles.

For us, however, setting it in 1301, not setting it in modern day Venice, California, like Baz had done, or setting it in the end, Juliet afterworld like they're doing, was very important to us to capture what really happened in 1301.

And the thing that was most interesting, perhaps because of my experience as a director of plays and having worked with this piece of material so often, was understanding that Shakespeare didn't come up with this idea either.

There were about six authors that Shakespeare borrowed from and each.

And going back over 100 years, before Shakespeare was even alive, where people were telling the story of the Cappelletti and the Montague and the Mantecchi.

So there were multiple source materials.

I mean, there's an Italian author back in.

I think he was born in 1410, so it had been sometime in the late 1400s.

And actually Romeo and Juliet at that point was called Mariota.

And.

And what was it?

Mario and Giannoza.

Then from that it was adapted by another wonderful Italian author named Luigi da Porta, I think that was 1530s, who did it.

Then he was adapted by another Italian, Matteo Bandello, who became, I think, the most important source material for Shakespeare.

That was then adapted by a French author and that was adapted by an English poet named Arthur Brooke, who wrote the Tragical history of Romeus and Juliet in 1562.

And Shakespeare took his step from there.

So the basic premise for me always was, did Shakespeare have all the source material?

Right?

He only had what he got.

And a lot of what he got only would have come from the church.

And we have a very interesting character of Friar Lawrence, who would be the only one creating the material for the church.

So in real life, there really does seem to be a real Romeo, a real Juliet, a real Montagues, a real Capulets, and at this time in Verona, which was fascinating, but the world was different.

And the text that Shakespeare based his idea on was a lot of different things that he had to pick and choose himself.

So I always felt that I had the same lenience that any of these other authors did to go back to the original, the original historical material and then look at how it was adapted and just do another version of what we think is real life.

The idea was always to, of course, respect the play, to Shakespeare, because I adore his text so much, which is why there's a lot of that filtered through the movie.

But ultimately is the most adapted and most analyzed play ever written.

Coupled with the fact that the source material itself was plentiful and you can only fit so much in, it gave me that luxury.

I still expect the true Shakespearean purists to not be happy.

I hope they could be.

I hope they can give this a moment just like they did with some of the other adaptations, to say, interesting, different take and really fun way to explore these same very important themes.

That's what we hope.

But it's a big one.

You're right.

That's like messing with one of the great, great, great.

Don't mess with.

Yeah.

And of course, there is the story as a whole.

And there are specifically those certain scenes, certain moments in the tale of Romeo and Juliet that are so iconic that they even exist in pop culture.

Once again, beyond the blade south, the balcony scene, the double suicide, there's virtually.

No aspect of ALB our life, whether it's a tv, a cop show, everybody references this dynamic and these people and these sequences.

So it was important to get the world right and authentic, but it also felt reasonable to explore it in a deeper way.

And so that's.

That's ultimately what we tried to do.

And yes, as both of us has mentioned this a couple of times, the story originated as a play.

But your version in this scenario, after directing it on stage multiple times, this time had to be cinematic.

Oh, yes, you've mentioned some of the elements you wanted to take with you, but what were the elements you specifically wanted to utilize that would make it stand apart?

The thing that, to me, was always the most thrilling part of this, of this play, in any version of that I've seen, whether I like, you know, this one set In World War II, this one set in Venice, California.

So it's always different, but those themes again, and the reality that these kids, my kids, Romeo, Juliet, all those guys were dealing with at the time, I just have always felt so powerful.

And yet I know.

And not to knock any other Shakespeare plays, because I'm equally at fault for not pulling it off.

I don't think I know when making it as a play, I've always struggled with, gosh, by the time the famous Mercutio Tybalt battle occurs, do we care enough about Tybalt and Mercutio?

Have we Met them enough, do we know about their inner lives?

The whole last part of the play turns on the events that occur between those two characters and what that ultimately creates.

But I always struggle with the fact that I don't know that we care about those guys and I don't know that the actual scene that plays out is, is as powerful as it needs to be or should be to so change the course of everyone else's life.

Similarly, I've often felt, and I know there's different attempts at different adaptations, but I've often felt that the adults, the families, have been given a little bit of short shrift because there's only so much time in a play that you can spend to really understand the dynamics of the dad and who Lord Montague, played by the great Jason Isaacs, is.

Or if I'm going to cast Rebel Wilson, which I did as Lady Capulet, I want to understand who Lady Capulet is.

What was Leah Capulet's life like when she was offered up to Mary Lord Capulet?

Was she the exact same person that her daughter was?

Does she understand that pain and struggle?

Did she understand the spot in the world?

So it was those themes that I just felt, gosh, they're so great, but they're not as explored as much.

And so the whole real mission was, can we take those themes, can we open up the story to allow us to truly explore the very, very nature of those relationships and the depth of those other characters, which I always felt would create a much more impactful experience for the viewer because we would care that much more, we would understand that much more.

And so that was super important for me to bring across.

And then of course, setting it in a world that I felt was 100% authentic.

Because the challenge with, gosh, any Shakespeare piece, suddenly they're wearing the costumes and they've got the hair and the head pieces and it could all very easily feel very distancing.

And if you're trying to appeal to 12, 14, 18, 24 year old people, they're in a world where they don't want distance anymore.

People really want, don't you understand my pain?

Don't you understand my love?

Don't you understand my desires?

That's what I was trying to capture.

So the mission was, okay, so how do we set a movie in 1301 and really embrace the incredible authenticity of that time and make it muscular, make it feel like I'm really there?

I'll tell you a very funny story.

On day one, we were shooting at The Tokiara castle, which we used for the Capulets.

And we were bringing in all the.

We were bringing all the characters to make that first big balcony scene work.

And, you know, you're doing the most famous scene in history, the balcony scene, which the great Dante Ferretti had to, you know, not just create this extraordinary location, which he did.

And my gosh, a whole other story about the pleasure of working with Dante Freddy.

But we end up creating this scenario and we start shooting and Clara Rugard, who plays our wonderful Juliet, is.

You can see the cold air coming out of her mouth.

And so a bunch of the crew are going.

Because, you know, it's four o' clock in the morning and it's really cold.

It's like November, December in Italy.

And I remember people go, what are we going to do?

Are we going to take it out with visual effects?

Are we going to put ice chips in their mouth?

And I said, no.

This castle right now, this room right now, if this was in 1301, this is exactly how cold it would be.

This is exactly what would be happening to Juliet.

And I want to feel that from her.

I want to feel what it's.

I don't want people looking, you know, very dainty on horses.

What would you have to wear to be on a horse?

What would you have to wear to deal with the rain?

So that whole approach of the muscularity and the authenticity was always a central compass for us.

And luckily, our incredible, you know, from Dante Ferretti to the incredible Luciano Caposi who did our costumes, really leaned into it, but it was bringing the themes and then it was making it authentic.

That's the short version of the long answer.

Love it.

And to close out and to circle back to where we started, and I know already that this is an extremely big question, but having now completed both the aforementioned deeply personal biopic and this reinvention of a classic, plus decades of experience, how has your approach to storytelling evolved across these two very different projects that are yet somehow somewhat similar?

It's such a great question.

It's a complicated answer, but it's an important answer.

A thing I knew going in, which, by the way, turned out to be true, was that there would be people, especially, I thought, critics ultimately, who would have an issue, perhaps with the fact that the son was making the story of the dad.

And it's kind of hard, the moment, you know, gosh, the son's making sure the dad, to not think, oh, they're whitewashing it.

Oh, they're protecting the character.

Now, ultimately, boy, I don't think I did.

I mean, when you look, if I were to look at that movie and see what the son is revealing about their.

Their father's marital experiences and drug use and other things, it's.

I wasn't trying to paint a perfect picture of the person.

I don't think he was a perfect person.

But it was unbelievably personal and therefore drove very different needs for me, not just as a filmmaker, but as a son.

So I really kind of take that one and kind of put it on its own thing.

It was something I've always needed to do, wanted to do for the family, for my dad's memory, and I'm so thrilled that I did it.

This one has always felt such an interesting and potentially important and fun exploration of not just one movie as an adaptation, but, but of this world.

And so even this first film is meant to be part of a three film franchise because at this time there was unbelievably exciting things and scary things and dangerous things happen in Verona at 1301 that would have impacted all of these characters.

And so the exploration was to build out that entire trilogy.

So ultimately, you know, we hope people respond to this one enough that they really want to see where we go.

And the intention, of course, is to make these next two pieces to fulfill that.

But I've always felt that there's nothing I've ever done that's just for me, because I think that that would be ridiculous.

These are very expensive endeavors and you have to make these for other people.

But there's no question there is a personal need on Spinning Gold that was different than the personal need to truly entertain and really embrace challenges I've had with the text myself and opportunities I saw of what it could mean for an audience today.

And so I think there's just a slightly different drive between them both.

But yes, they're both ultimately shockingly personal, even though they're so different.

Tim, once again, thank you so much for your time and for this wonderful conversation.

Thank you so much, Andrew.

Great pleasure.