Well, doctor Nick, thank you so much for, for joining me.

I'll start by a little introduction of how we met each other. We are at

a conference not too terribly long ago. The Canadian Massage Conference. And

this memory of meeting you sticks so firmly in my mind.

So there I am. I'm standing in a corner, a nice shadowy dark corner as

somebody else is presenting. And then doctor Nick comes up and he

says, hey. What do you think of this? And I'm like, it's pretty good.

And then you and then and then he said, so tell me, what do you

think of universal basic income? And immediately, I'm like, I like this

guy. I like this guy a lot. Like, we're jumping right into it. And

then immediately, like you said, it was like stepbrothers. It's like, yeah. Are we best

friends now? So Yeah. Well yeah. Exactly. What I liked about it was like, oh,

what about this? What about this? It was just idea after idea and we're talking

about how we thought about it. And then you took me rock climbing, which I

haven't done in about 5 or 10 years. So it's fantastic to get back into

that game a little bit. So it was super cool. Yeah. Awesome. It was it

was an awesome experience. And I'm really grateful that since then we've, connected quite a

few times. And, I'm looking forward to this chat. Nice. Me too. It's gonna be

excellent. Alright. So I wanna talk to you about the chiro playbook. And

what I mean by the chiro playbook is in the world of manual practitioners,

wellness practitioners, chiros are like they're awesome at

getting clients in the door, getting them to rebook, getting them to to stick

to the treatment plan, whatever that might be. And in other modalities, that

doesn't really happen. So let's talk about that. Mhmm. Well, I've been,

chiro since 2,020 2,000 and 1, I should say.

2,021. 2,020, 2, 2001.

And, yeah. You're right. Or actually, what I would suggest is there is an old

playbook version and a newer playbook version that we're looking at right here. The old

school playbook, as I'm sure many of your viewers and listeners are

aware of, is I need to see you 3 times a week for the next

6 weeks and then 2 times a week and then taper off after that.

Right? And, of course, there can be a bunch of different things that are said

that are of questionable scientific evidence, including

subluxation based theories and all of this. But if someone

has an income that is dependent on the number of people I see and how

often I see them, guess what tends to happen? You tend to see them a

little bit more often. If I spent $50,000 on an x-ray

machine, guess what tends to happen? You tend to get x rays a little bit

more in that practice. Right? So that's a major part of the playbook. And

just to be clear on this, when you go to chiro school now, you are

looking at a 150, $200,000 of cost over

that 4 years if you include just the tuition fees and living

expenses. If you have the lost potential of income over those 4

years, you're looking more at, like, 300, $400,000

of potential loss rate there or cost overall. Yeah.

Okay. So I think well, one, that's

a super important consideration that I don't wanna necessarily go on that tangent, but

I'm super grateful that you brought it up, is when we talk about education cost,

we're not only talking about the pure cost of education, we're also talking about the

cost of lost earned income. Yeah. So very important.

Mhmm. Now when when you go through the the education of

chiro, how much time is actually dedicated teaching practitioners

how to do the whole care plan compliance thing, get people to

come in and rebook? Yep. So like most programs so basically,

again, just for review what chiroeducation is, you should have at least 3 years of

postsecondary, probably a bachelor's degree, and then you have another 4 academic

years of postsecondary. And you would start to go through that playbook

of how often patients should be booking in in your 2nd or 3rd year whenever

you get into the student clinic. And it's almost like chiropractic

lore that it's done like that. 2 times a week or 3 times a week

for the first 4 to 6 weeks, and then you gradually taper off during a

few episodes. So I would say it starts in 2nd year or 3rd year. You

would experience even as a 1st year student when you're going into the student clinics

and seeing what it's all about as well. Okay. Okay. And

are there any, like, specific, like, here's a script

that you end up having to use, or here's a script you should use in

order to do it? I wouldn't say there's specific scripts, but there are definitely

going to be institutions, especially, that are more biased towards

subluxation based theories versus more contemporary

evidence based theories. For a number of schools, they use the green books written by

DeeDee and BJ Palmer that basically say nerve interference is the

worst thing in your body. We are going to exercise the

demons, k, by getting rid of that nerve interference.

More recent evidence would suggest this may not be the case. Can

you dig into that a little bit more? Like, what's the difference between the 2?

Yeah. Alright. So you're basically looking at the difference between a

diversified evidence informed chiropractic practice versus

a more, what do I wanna say, energetic chiropractic practice. So

if you're looking at their they're basically taught at some schools, and those schools are

having some difficulty right now, a energy based model of

nerve interference and subluxation theory that causes impingement of

nerves or misalignment of vertebrae can cause impingement and

irritation of nerve that results in symptoms distal to where that nerve goes.

Most people have seen the image of the spine of the back that shows all

the nerves running out to different spinal levels. And what happens in some

chiro schools is they'll take that to an extreme level and say that

if you have problems at t 4, t 5 spinal level, it can lead

to angina type symptoms. If you have problems at l4, l5, it

can lead to digestive symptoms. Or there's, like, Weber technique and other

things like that that are out there that are we can change the position of

your baby by the adjustments that we do on your back to help the birthing

process to go better. Current evidence does not

support most of those claims. Now that's

super interesting because I I'm I'm I'm like eyeballs deep in the

whole manual therapy and wellness world, and as far as I

have known up until this conversation, that's still, like, the the

common ethos, like, what everybody understands I shouldn't say

everybody. What a lot of people understand chiropractic to be to being about. So what's

the new school of thought then? Well, old school would be bone out of place.

We're gonna put it back in place. There's detailed studies. We actually talk about it

in our book, chiropractic technique and in our chiropractic,

clinical chiropractic book. That's like this one's like 600. That one's like 1200 pages.

Over 5,000 references is you look at more

detailed recent MRI studies and bones don't go out of place. Even if

you look at adjustments that were done, so high velocity treatments that were done to

immobilize joints, the joints wind up going back into the position that they were

in almost instantly or within 20 minutes. Even the gas bubble that

forms from the cavitation that you hear is reabsorbed in about

20 minutes. So really what we're looking at is more neurophysiologic

effects that might be taking place. But really what we're looking at is a

more the newer stories are going to be along a whole newer theories, I should

say, are gonna be along a holistic approach of balanced medicine where it's not

just gonna be a chiropractic adjustment, but it's also going to be home

care activities, nutritional modifications, all this stuff to create a

more balanced and equal lifestyle for the person to give you better long term

results. I mean, if you wanna look at it, what's the ideal patient is one

that is dependent on your therapy. Oh, you gotta come in once a

week or twice a week or once a month. It's actually illegal in the province

where I practice right now for you to do that. You can't have people sign

up in advance for multiple treatments like that and pay in advance.

They can decide when they wanna come in, but at the end of the day,

if you get somebody on a cycle that is you're paying for 10 business upfront,

come and use them whenever you want, You're not allowed to do that anymore in

British Columbia. So yeah. Mhmm. And even Weber Technek is not recognized

as a specific technique or evidence based content, all this stuff. Right?

Interesting. So when when we're talking about, like, the average

person, even other practitioners, massage therapists, doctors,

whatever they are, osteopaths for crying all out, are thinking themselves,

when somebody goes to a chiropractor, what's happening is joints that are

subluxed are out of places, and put a pin in this, I wanna talk

about ribs out of place in a moment.

But, you know, there's this general idea that that's what's happening. So if

current evidence and science is showing that that's not actually the case, can we dig

a little bit deeper into the the effect? Somebody comes in, you do a

chiropractic adjustment, what's actually happening then? Okay. Well, there's a couple

of there's a number of great physiologic effects that happen right there. And one of

the main theories currently is around a decrease in central central sensitization.

So what happens? You have an injury to your low back, we'll say, because that's

the most common thing, or neck pain, whatever it is. And the actual injury

itself, these things heal at a cellular level relatively quickly. But what winds up

happening is a residual pain perception and loss of range of

motion and hypervigilance and fear of movement that people get

with catastrophization and central sensitization potentially,

where that cycle can be broken by a adjustment. So hearing a

cavitation or crack in their back can cause a reflex muscle relaxation,

stimulation in nerves. If you go on to YouTube and you type in Vysniak joints

of the body, I actually show on an MRI and an ultrasound what actually happens.

You can see the joint actually stretch out and then pop and all the ligaments

stretch out. But what we tend to see with that as well is a reflex

of muscle relaxation as well. As long as the adjustment wasn't

painful or super uncomfortable for the person, they'll usually relax

better after. As soon as they get up, they'll feel like they can move a

lot better. Even for myself, I do get regular spinal joint

mobilizations done, and it's the same thing. When you're talking about ribs earlier, we'll come

back to that. If I can feel where I have a rib that isn't moving

quite right and I'll move around and I get it adjusted, then you can get

up and you're gonna take that deeper breath. You feel like you can

move around. If you have the neck tightness, you feel like you can twist your

neck from side to side a little better following it. The key thing here though

is if you're doing evidence based best practices is not to create

dependence, but build resilience and empowerment in your patient to give

them home care options and ideas where they could run for a little bit longer

before they need this kind of treatment again. K. K. So many different

directions I wanna go with that, compliance in home care.

Yeah. I think I think that's no. I'm gonna go this direction first

because I wanna make sure I'm understanding you properly. What what I believe

I'm hearing is you describing the fact that the process of chiropractic therapy,

it's sounding like, ultimately, has to do with nervous system

reregulation or reeducation. Yeah. Sure. Or

change change in sensitivity in areas. Sure. Or or you could even take a more

fundamental look at it too. Even the range of motion that you get somebody through

can reinitiate, you know, electrochemical signals in the

local area and through upper and lower motor neuron pathways and

sensitization pathways as well to change the person's perceived pain or

discomfort and allow them to explore new ranges and realize they might not be damaged

as much as they think they are or that they can move in ways they

didn't think they could move before. At risk of oversimplifying

something, which is vastly complicated, what I appreciate now more than

ever, particularly after this little chitchat, is the nervous system

is like it's like a master system. Right? Like, I always say to massage therapists,

you work on the muscles, you work with the nervous system. With acupuncturists,

we're not actually putting needles and affecting the nervous system directly. We're

affecting the fascial and the endocrine system, ultimately through the nervous system. It seems

like so much of we do is affecting the nervous system. But

through other systems, meaning everything is intrinsically connected to

everything. Mhmm. Yep. I think that's a bang on statement to make. Like, I

mean, there's even neuro hormonal interfaces that are occurring in places like

your adrenal glands and all that. I think if you were to look at the

way that really most of our therapies work, number 1,

people have a hard time with this, but there's gonna be a major placebo effect.

Just the belief in future wellness is going to give you 15 to 30% of

your effect right there. Part of my process is people always ask me, when does

a patient visit start? And people are like, well, when they come into the clinic,

obviously. No. The patient visit actually starts when they first start to think

about booking in with you and what they're trying to accomplish with their long

term and short term goals. Usually it's pain reduction, but there can be

multiple different options that they're looking for with this. But if you look at one

of our major graphics that I keep back here, the best practices for

musculoskeletal pain, this is all evidence based content based on

systematic reviews of thousands of patients. And we know what actually

works for people. And our manual therapies, this is that graphic right there, our

pointing, is just a minor portion of everything else

that we should be putting together for that person for optimal outcomes. If

I go to the old school playbook for chiropractic, what do

I see? Well, we measured your back and you can see that

you've got subluxations, you've got a tilt here, and they're gonna make

claims that they can change these tilts or modify all of these processes

and and that I need to see you 3 times a week. Can I talk

about this case a little bit in particular? This is what I keep in my

mind. Please. Alright. This really makes me mad about this. So this was a

case of a 12 year old girl who is perfectly healthy.

So I'm gonna give you the case that I was given. They had gone to

see another chiropractor, and they wanted to get a second opinion. So first

of all, this family was driving. The grandma was driving the child 1

hour to the chiropractor and then back. And guess what the treatment

frequency was? 3 times okay for the next 6 weeks. I need to see

your kid. I'm like, great. I said, okay. I because I don't wanna presume any

judgment or create any negative content around anything for any patient or any other

practitioner. They went ahead and did this. They went for 2 or

3 visits, and then they decided to come in and see me, and they wanted

a second opinion. So we went through and I evaluated her. Her primary concern

was we wanted to see that her back strength was strong enough for her

golf swing of all things. K? So I go ahead and do my

assessments. I say, alright. This is a 12 year old girl, and I'm like, okay.

Let's go ahead and see how many push ups you can do right off the

bat. Range of motion was all fine. We all done that. She bangs off 20

push ups. No problem. I'm like, okay. Can you do some sit ups for me?

Yeah. She just does them and she could keep going as long as she wanted.

No. We don't see anything else. Do some squats for me. Lower body check is

fine. Like, okay. Can you come and do some pull ups on our pull up

rack? She does pull ups, and I'm talking perfect form

pull ups and stretching all the way through like this and chest almost touching, and

she bangs off 10 of those at 12 years old. Now you tell me

what 12 year old girl can do that. And I'm like, so you're going

3 times a week for this treatment right now. Are you noticing any benefit? No.

And I'm like, what is this treatment costing you? And they're like, well, by the

time we're done, it's gonna be over $2,000. And I said to

them, I look at this kid and I look at this family who's in here

with me. I'm like, this your daughter is perfectly healthy. If you wanna

see her golf swing be better, she should be practicing her golf swing more and

exercises specific for that. There's no magical adjustments

or bone resetting that you're gonna do. And even this stuff we know,

especially if they try and sell it to you with X rays, We know that

if I took an X-ray with you standing like this and I took an X-ray

with you standing like that, guess what? The alignment and the numbers were

different. This is a big time sales pitch to

get as many people in for as many business as possible. And in my

opinion, it is not in the best best

it pisses me off as I'm starting a little on this. It's not in the

best interest of the patient, the family, or any profession that's involved with that to

actually continue this mindless, let's see you 3 times a

week and that kind of treatment right there. It's not serving anybody. In fact,

you could even make an argument that it might even be harmful. Never mind financial

harm, just the actual time involved, all that other risk factors that they might have

there. Sorry. I went on a little tangent there, doctor Jeff. Important tangent. It's

near and dear to my heart, and it pisses me off in north to no

end. Yeah. And to me, it seems and and I don't wanna

necessarily pile on the the negativity, but I I

believe it's a super important thing to consider that that that

model on superficial level seems sustainable. Right? Like like you

said at the beginning, you wanna the way to make more money is to see

people more often. But the reality is the sooner you fix somebody,

the sooner they become a lifelong advocate for you and your entire practice. Right? So

you get more referrals. You get them booking when they just wanna tune up. Right?

Like, that's the way to build a sustainable business, not to come up with some

arbitrary treatment plan that is going to require 12 to 50 blah

blah blah blah blah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. But you're you're a 100% right.

But the thing is that simple models work good for the patient

populations. K? If I'm John q public or Joe or Jane q public,

what's happening out there? Oh, I have a bone out of place you're putting in.

That's that little clip that I hear. Or let me even do this. This is

the big one right here. Yes. So you see how this is like this,

and there's like a there's a I only put it the right way. There's a

little bulge right here. Well, guess what? My adjustments are gonna get rid of that

bulge. No. They're not. Look at your evidence. Look at your research. K? You're

gonna see bigger bulges actually reabsorbed spontaneously better than small

ones, and you would see that just basic range of motion and me helping you

facilitate that range of motion is what's gonna help. And I'm there as

I do this at all the seminars that I speak as well. Where are we

really all in health care? You're making sure that there's no emergencies, but I'm getting

my pom poms out, and I'm gonna say, yes. You can. And get my arms

up for that to give you permission to move when it's safe and

recognize red flag warning signs when it's not. That's going to be

more empowering for you as a patient rather than what I'm gonna call the fear

mongering of, oh, yes. If you come in and see me because you've got this

pelvic malalignment from whatever reading that was done right there that we may or may

not even be able to change, I'm probably again, my practice

style is gonna be working more towards your evidence based best practices and ultimate

results because I care what the real return is on this versus seeing

you again and again in my office as a business model. Right. And it's it's

kinda tricky because it's, on one hand, a harder sell. It's strange. Right?

Like, the easy sell is, I'm gonna fix your problem. All you have to do

is show up for the next 12 weeks versus you're going to

fix your problem. All you have to do is go through that wheel that you

have in the background of is it that's, what, 10 10 different things? I

can't count them. We'll call it. Yeah. 8 8 things we gotta go over there.

8 things? Same as my 8, elements of health. Right? So you're going

to do your own work. All you have to do is commit an hour to

2 hours a day, and you don't have to see it's way harder to sell

people on the fact that they have sovereignty over their own health. Well, no.

So but the thing that I'll do is I'll leave it up to the patient

to decide what they wanna do. And a lot of people respect this process better.

So all I have is I can remember one computer programmer I have from Intel

when I was practicing in Portland, and the guy would literally drink 2 2 liters

of Coke every single day. That's that's what he did. That's what he got his

energy and did his programming. And he would sit at his desk like this, hunched

over the entire time and, you know, all this kind of stuff. He'd have chronic

middle back pain right here. And I gave him the choice. I'm like, look. You

can go to some kind of yoga flow movement, a little bit of lifting and

stretching is gonna make a big difference, or you can come and sing every week.

And that would be a rare example where someone chose to come in every week.

But then within that, I can make influence of saying, you know what? What if

we switch this Coke out for something else or whatever else you're doing? Right? It

would actually change better outcomes long term rather than seeing early onset

diabetes and insulin resistance and all that. Whole separate topic.

But the better sell would be of instead of 3 times a week or 2

times a week for 6 weeks, hey. You know what? You've got a new injury.

Maybe I'll see you a couple of times in the next 2 or 3 weeks,

and then we can taper off there. And then you train people to recognize when

injuries are happening, when they should come in and when they shouldn't come in and

go to the right place. I'll give you another example. It's a complete Achilles tendon

rupture. This is a good one. So a patient of mine came in. This was

2 years ago, full Achilles tendon rupture. Pretty standard picture of weekend warrior, middle

aged male. Here's a snap, full

rupture, and he goes the neurosurgeon route. Doesn't get surgery,

but gets put in a boot. But he's told to wear

that boot for 32, 33 days before he takes it

off. What do we know? Yeah. I know. This is what he was told. So

his ankle is actually in a plantar flex position, and it heals like that. When

he took that gluDoc, he could barely even walk. He was scared to put his

foot on the ground. That would be an example where you know what? Come in

a little bit earlier, and we can see a little bit more often and get

our rehab working quite well for you and give you better evidence and

form ideas that are gonna support your better long term healing. The next

time he ruptured 1, which was 2 years later, the first thing he did was

like, hey. Can I come and see you tomorrow? I made time, and we went

through it. And the healing has been night and day difference. And you're absolutely right.

What you said before, doctor Jess, is that his

friends, his family, now I see a ton of soccer players and all these all

these people associated with him that way. That makes me sleep better at night. That

makes me realize I'm doing better results, getting better results for my patients and being,

like, evidence based, you know, everything I've been trying to write for the last 20

years for Catharine. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. I'd like to loop back to something you said

a little bit earlier. I I find it, fascinating that you brought it up and

also very important. And the question that you asked is when does treatment begin?

Mhmm. When they first start thinking about coming to treat, and that is

such an important thing for everybody to remember. So could you dig

into a little bit more about how you facilitate that

process right from that moment all the way up to the point of discharge?

This will get out this will get out into a little bit more of the

chiro playbook, but it shouldn't just be a chiro playbook. This is like interaction with

anybody playbook. What I want people to do, and we get this comment all the

time when people come into our clinic here, is when they step in the

door, they can already feel

that they're in a relaxed state. They're already gonna be breathing easier. They're already dedicated

to this process right here. So that process is something that facilitation

of thinking of positive mindset interactions with you at your clinic is what

they think of when they're actually looking at. The other thing that they're recognizing too,

and we were talking about this before, was they are recognizing

you as an expert in your field. They trust the information that you're

presenting, and it is your ethical responsibility in

this shared decision making process to make sure you're putting

their needs and best interests first. How do you know you care

about somebody? You care because you want nothing but good things for them. What am

I trying to do here? I'm trying to create a an environment of positivity

and future wellness for you. So even when you come in, we'll

go through and we're gonna talk about this in a future episode I know for

even the orthopedic tests, testing and assessments. If I'm

doing something as simple as range of motion and I have you lean to the

side, I don't just do lumbar. I do full spinal range of motion to see

how somebody moves. I will say your range of motion is great. That looks

very good. Like, give them compliments for all the good things. And then when they

get to the thing that doesn't work so well, they're like, oh, I can only

get down here. We can say, alright. Let's limit a little bit. So I gave

you what did I give you? I gave you 8 things that were positive and

one thing that was negative. So they don't develop this mindset around their treatment

of, oh, I'm broken. Oh, this is a negative outcome or this is a permanent

change or whatever it is. And it doesn't matter. If you're a kid, if you

are 85 years old and you come in here, I think our oldest patient is

98 actually, it's always focusing on positivity and what are

your ultimate goals and how can we help get you there together.

Yep. That's what I thought. Everything. Yeah. The the workshop and I

was telling you about this earlier. The workshop I just taught in Florida at a

conference, was all about client compliance. And one of the things that

I spoke about, in fact, the entire thing I spoke about, was essentially

communication. Client compliance is about how you choose to communicate with your

client moving from the language of deprivation to the language of empowerment. And it is

so bizarre how by shifting from, I'm a person with chronic

fatigue to, I'm a person who really wants to go hiking again, and I'm

damn well gonna do it. That's the thing that keeps them coming back and

rebooking and following through with their home care. Yeah. And, like, you were talking about

this before too prior to we prior to us starting this podcast. How do you

prevent prevent the burnout that a lot of people suffer in practice? Look at us

both right now. How fired up and enthusiastic we are about this process right

here. Right? I I I am so much into this. Like, I'll take people

and they'll they'll get them doing things they didn't think they could ever do. We'll

do, like, acro yoga. I'll get them into jiu jitsu. I'll take people who have

never been into a gym and say, hey. Let's go to the gym. I'll be

there on Saturday. I'll walk you through through some basic workout stuff and how empowering

that is for these little baby steps. That's all you need. If you really wanna

see what I really focus on, it's minimal effective dose. What is the least

that I have to do to help you reach the results that you want? Do

I have to get ultrasound and, you know, take an

x-ray of you and do all this kind of stuff? We know that that stuff

actually doesn't support most of the evidence based best practices. We know that

it's going to be a communication style empowerment and

knowing when to load at the right time and gradually building up your

tolerance at at that pace. Mhmm. Mhmm. When

when you're having these conversations with your clients, how

how do you go about rephrasing? Like, I use a technique called

motivational interviewing, which is essentially the right kind of questions

to get them to come up with the ideas. They're the one who comes up

with the treatment plan and all these type of things. What do you use? Well,

it sounds like you read exactly that. Our book's right there. If you look at

the if you look in the you have a copy of the massage therapy book.

You also have a copy of the orthopedic assessment book as well. Right there.

Motivational interviewing. I'd give you 2 pages on how to perform a motivational

interview. Exactly that. And it has to happen with you spending

the time at the very start getting a detailed history and understanding what the

person is really about. What do they do for work? What do they do for

fun? Where do they really find their passions? And then finding that content

and creating exercises and enjoy and laughter all about

that. I'll give you another example. Patient came in with an ACL reconstructive

surgery, very fearful of moving it. All we did,

he was just sitting on the edge of the table right here, and we just

swung our knees back and forth. And we said, wee wee. And I said, pretend

like you're a kid again if you want to. If I can get you to

laugh and smile during the visit, I know that this has already been a winning

process for you right here. Mhmm. Yeah. It's it's shocking, and it's a

super simple technique. Right? It's not something it's not rocket science. You don't

have to go back to school for it. I would suspect those 2 pages within

those books, which I'm definitely gonna take a look at once we're done our call,

that's all you need. It's not a complex thing. It is. And the thing is

you have to relate it to the age group you're working with, though. Right? So

if you're working with a geriatric person, they don't wanna see some 20 year old

doing 50 push ups because it's not gonna be realistic or even relatable for them.

But if you can show them a another 85 year old that's doing, like,

10 push ups, oh, that person can do that. I can see myself as that

demographic, then I can connect with that. Right? Like, it has to be sports specific

or activity specific, which I would suggest for a lot of doctors and

therapists is you should get into as many different things as you can so you

can relate to your clients a little bit better too. And you tend to attract

those kind of people into your practice. Mhmm. Yep. And I mean, it's it's

the the classic SMART goal system that is overused in

some cases, but for good reason because it has to be relevant. Like you said

at the beginning, we really need to understand their goal. And people's goal

isn't to get rid of their shoulder pain. Yeah. They might say I wanna get

rid of my shoulder pain, but that's not their goal. Their goal is to play

with their grandkids. Mhmm. Right? So we figure out the relevant goal to them. Yeah.

Their goal is to raise their hand up for whatever they're doing. And I am

not facilitating your goals by selling you more treatments than

you need. And you know what? Even slowing my own reach and potential down

too. Like, as a practicing doctor, if I actually just see the same person again

and again and again, I'm doing crack, crack, just see the same person again

and again and again, I'm doing crack, crack, crack, crack, and it's not really changing

any outcome measurable outcomes for you, that time could be better spent

with another patient where you can help somebody out. There's no

shortage of sick people or people who can use your health use your health

for their health. But at the end of the day, too many docs get stuck

at the chiropractic old school playbook of, I gotta see you 3 times a week

and and they just have this mindset that just does not follow evidence

based best practices. Love it. Love it. I like that, the

this this episode is gonna be short and sweet. Our little little half hour chit

chats. I'm looking forward to doing more of them and picking out really awesome topics

just like this. So, of course, I'm gonna put all the links to to doctor

Nick's stuff in the show notes. And if people are watching the video or if

they're, sorry, just listening to the audio, I'll put up the graphics of all the

things that we've been talking about on on this episode as well. So And remember,

find practitioners that are meant that are designed they're not designed. We're all designed.

We all get our best joy out of teaching and helping other people, and just

create positive engagements is really what you're looking for. And that's why I love doing

this kind of stuff with you, doctor Jess. It's like I mean, we're on the

exact wavelength right here, connecting a 100%. So super cool.

Awesome. Thank you kindly. We'll chat next time. Okay. See you there, good

sir.