1 00:00:00,542 --> 00:00:03,545 Yes. I think Mennonites have affirmed the Apostle's Creed. 2 00:00:04,295 --> 00:00:06,506 But there's things we tend to get 3 00:00:06,506 --> 00:00:09,509 fuzzy on, and church tends to get fuzzy on. 4 00:00:09,718 --> 00:00:12,053 So one of the items of the creed, like, 5 00:00:12,053 --> 00:00:14,806 you know, I believe in the resurrection of the body. 6 00:00:14,806 --> 00:00:18,351 Okay, that's pretty fundamental to Christianity. But. 7 00:00:19,060 --> 00:00:22,939 You know, it has not been uncommon to talk about resurrection or, 8 00:00:23,565 --> 00:00:27,402 you know, the future life in ways that you almost don't 9 00:00:27,402 --> 00:00:30,739 need to raise the body because, you know, you go to heaven when you die. 10 00:00:30,739 --> 00:00:33,575 And that's the Christian hope, 11 00:00:33,575 --> 00:00:37,037 you know, would we have struggled less with that, downplaying the resurrection 12 00:00:37,037 --> 00:00:40,957 if, you know, we were routinely saying, I believe in the resurrection of the body, 13 00:00:40,957 --> 00:00:43,126 like this is fundamental, 14 00:00:48,882 --> 00:00:50,258 So on this podcast, 15 00:00:50,258 --> 00:00:54,471 we get a fair amount of interaction from the audience, 16 00:00:54,471 --> 00:00:58,892 people sending us emails, leaving comments and things like that. 17 00:00:58,892 --> 00:01:03,271 And there is one question that actually you and I did on a partners 18 00:01:03,271 --> 00:01:05,106 episode, which people can go to the website 19 00:01:05,106 --> 00:01:07,692 to see the partner program, but we're going to dive into that a bit. 20 00:01:07,692 --> 00:01:10,236 Here on the main channel and a few other things as well, 21 00:01:10,236 --> 00:01:12,989 because feel it has a lot of relevance for our audience. 22 00:01:12,989 --> 00:01:16,201 And someone named Travis left us this comment. 23 00:01:16,201 --> 00:01:20,121 I'll just read this and then, you can respond says, 24 00:01:20,121 --> 00:01:23,792 which of the early church creeds can Anabaptists affirm? 25 00:01:24,167 --> 00:01:27,921 And that got us thinking a bit of the Anabaptists and the creeds, 26 00:01:27,921 --> 00:01:32,425 and how, at least in my own experience, I just haven't thought about it that much. 27 00:01:32,634 --> 00:01:35,220 So you did a little bit of digging on that, and, I'd be. 28 00:01:35,220 --> 00:01:35,470 Yeah. 29 00:01:35,470 --> 00:01:38,473 Interested in what you have to share with us here, Jaran? 30 00:01:38,598 --> 00:01:39,057 Yeah. 31 00:01:39,057 --> 00:01:43,770 This question brings to mind, the episode that we did with David Bercot. 32 00:01:43,770 --> 00:01:46,940 It was actually a lecture that he presented where he spoke 33 00:01:46,940 --> 00:01:48,608 about the Trinity. 34 00:01:48,608 --> 00:01:51,402 I think it's a lecture that we can recommend to our audience 35 00:01:51,402 --> 00:01:55,281 sometime in the course of that episode, he asked the audience of, 36 00:01:55,281 --> 00:01:57,909 presumably Mennonites, how many people 37 00:01:57,909 --> 00:02:00,912 he asked how many are familiar with the Apostle's Creed. 38 00:02:01,204 --> 00:02:04,791 And you were there, I believe I wasn't. 39 00:02:05,959 --> 00:02:08,169 Did you see how many hands went up? 40 00:02:08,169 --> 00:02:09,420 It wasn't many. 41 00:02:09,420 --> 00:02:11,422 I wish I could remember percentages. 42 00:02:11,422 --> 00:02:14,384 It was about 40 people there, and they were all Mennonites. 43 00:02:14,384 --> 00:02:17,387 Yeah, And that was the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed 44 00:02:18,429 --> 00:02:18,930 or both? 45 00:02:18,930 --> 00:02:21,057 Did go down even lower with the Nicene Creed. 46 00:02:21,057 --> 00:02:22,851 I think he asked both. 47 00:02:22,851 --> 00:02:23,601 We might have to 48 00:02:23,601 --> 00:02:26,479 I might have to dig up some old footage and see if I can find, like, 49 00:02:26,479 --> 00:02:28,398 how many people actually raise their hands. 50 00:02:28,398 --> 00:02:30,358 But it was not many, No. 51 00:02:30,358 --> 00:02:33,945 Well, whichever the case, I think that it's sad and too bad 52 00:02:33,945 --> 00:02:38,116 that we are not more cognizant of the creeds 53 00:02:39,075 --> 00:02:43,371 because they matter and we do affirm them. 54 00:02:43,371 --> 00:02:45,582 We are Orthodox Christians. 55 00:02:45,582 --> 00:02:47,834 There's a blog post that I would. 56 00:02:49,377 --> 00:02:52,046 Oh, we should read the Creed first, shouldn't we? 57 00:02:52,046 --> 00:02:52,839 I was going to say yes. 58 00:02:52,839 --> 00:02:57,051 So, This is interesting that you mentioned this, that it feels like there 59 00:02:57,051 --> 00:02:58,219 isn't that much familiarity. 60 00:02:58,219 --> 00:02:59,554 That would be in my own personal experience. 61 00:02:59,554 --> 00:03:01,264 I honestly, I wasn't familiar 62 00:03:01,264 --> 00:03:02,765 with the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed, 63 00:03:02,765 --> 00:03:05,268 a lot of these things until I went looking for it. 64 00:03:05,268 --> 00:03:07,854 And it's talking to different people in my life, 65 00:03:07,854 --> 00:03:09,606 and they're like, Apostle's Creed, I don't know. 66 00:03:09,606 --> 00:03:12,358 I've never, never read that. Like, I don't I don't know what that even is. 67 00:03:12,358 --> 00:03:16,154 And, so yeah, why don't we actually, just before we launch too deep, 68 00:03:16,279 --> 00:03:17,113 just read this. 69 00:03:17,113 --> 00:03:20,116 The Apostle's Creed, I have the Apostle's Creed in front of me. 70 00:03:20,116 --> 00:03:22,785 It is. It is brief. 71 00:03:24,078 --> 00:03:24,746 I believe in 72 00:03:24,746 --> 00:03:28,249 God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth. 73 00:03:28,791 --> 00:03:31,794 I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, our Lord, 74 00:03:31,794 --> 00:03:34,881 who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. 75 00:03:35,465 --> 00:03:40,386 He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. 76 00:03:40,803 --> 00:03:42,388 He descended to hell. 77 00:03:42,388 --> 00:03:44,641 The third day he rose again from the dead. 78 00:03:44,641 --> 00:03:49,354 He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty. 79 00:03:49,979 --> 00:03:53,775 From there he will come to judge the living and the dead. 80 00:03:54,442 --> 00:03:57,528 I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, 81 00:03:57,820 --> 00:04:01,199 the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, 82 00:04:01,532 --> 00:04:05,662 the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. 83 00:04:06,788 --> 00:04:08,539 Amen. 84 00:04:08,539 --> 00:04:10,500 That is the Apostle's Creed. 85 00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:13,503 And we affirm it. 86 00:04:13,628 --> 00:04:17,715 There is a blog post written by Christina 87 00:04:17,715 --> 00:04:21,719 Moss on anabaptisthistorians.org. 88 00:04:23,346 --> 00:04:26,349 She posted this in 2020. 89 00:04:26,516 --> 00:04:29,519 I think she summarizes things quite well. 90 00:04:29,852 --> 00:04:33,064 In the four years since I first began attending a Mennonite church. 91 00:04:33,356 --> 00:04:36,651 I have sometimes heard Anabaptist referred to as non creedal Christians. 92 00:04:37,193 --> 00:04:39,904 It is certainly true that when asked to describe what it means 93 00:04:39,904 --> 00:04:43,908 to be Anabaptist, most Anabaptist will understandably give an answer 94 00:04:43,908 --> 00:04:48,288 that prioritizes doctrines and practices that are not common 95 00:04:48,288 --> 00:04:52,792 to the majority of Christian churches, particularly pacifism or creedo baptism. 96 00:04:53,710 --> 00:04:57,255 Similarly, when drawing doctrinal boundaries around their churches, 97 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,134 something they were as ready to do as the state churches, 98 00:05:01,384 --> 00:05:03,011 though not at the point of the sword. 99 00:05:03,011 --> 00:05:07,932 Anabaptists have tended to appeal to Scripture directly since it, 100 00:05:07,974 --> 00:05:11,311 since its authority superseded any creeds 101 00:05:11,311 --> 00:05:14,314 and confessions, however valuable. 102 00:05:14,647 --> 00:05:17,984 Nevertheless, insofar as the Apostle’s and Nicene Creeds 103 00:05:17,984 --> 00:05:21,446 can be said to summarize the essentials of the Christian faith. 104 00:05:22,030 --> 00:05:26,451 The earliest Anabaptists upheld these teachings, with only a few exceptions. 105 00:05:28,369 --> 00:05:30,747 What she says resonates with my experience 106 00:05:30,747 --> 00:05:33,750 about how Anabaptists tend to talk about things. 107 00:05:35,501 --> 00:05:36,377 But I do believe that 108 00:05:36,377 --> 00:05:39,547 she is right that the earliest, 109 00:05:39,547 --> 00:05:42,550 the earliest Anabaptists upheld the teachings 110 00:05:43,009 --> 00:05:44,886 of the creeds 111 00:05:44,886 --> 00:05:48,514 and made explicit references to them in their writings. 112 00:05:49,682 --> 00:05:52,060 So we still uphold the teachings 113 00:05:52,060 --> 00:05:55,063 of the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. 114 00:05:55,188 --> 00:05:58,399 But yeah, we don't tend to reference them as much, 115 00:05:58,524 --> 00:06:02,528 which I think might be where you're going, like they did reference them. 116 00:06:02,695 --> 00:06:06,324 Fortunately, I did learn the Apostle's Creed in school as a school assignment. 117 00:06:06,324 --> 00:06:09,243 But yeah, yeah, not all of us have experienced that. 118 00:06:09,243 --> 00:06:11,579 Well and I think 119 00:06:11,579 --> 00:06:13,289 Christina Moss in that 120 00:06:13,289 --> 00:06:17,085 article does raise a point that I would resonate from my own experience of 121 00:06:17,877 --> 00:06:20,922 we're pretty quick to point out, oh, yeah, as Anabaptists, we believe in, 122 00:06:20,922 --> 00:06:24,008 you know, radical and b love and separation from the world and two 123 00:06:24,008 --> 00:06:27,011 kingdoms and, you know, saying all those things which are true. 124 00:06:27,136 --> 00:06:30,556 But not going to say the Apostles Creed 125 00:06:30,556 --> 00:06:35,978 or some of those fundamentals of this is Orthodox Christianity. 126 00:06:36,187 --> 00:06:37,939 Not that we don't believe those things. 127 00:06:37,939 --> 00:06:43,111 It's just it isn't really part of the experience for many of our people. 128 00:06:43,111 --> 00:06:44,112 And when I say that, I'm, 129 00:06:44,112 --> 00:06:46,322 I'm saying to American Mennonites, because that's my own experience. 130 00:06:46,322 --> 00:06:47,448 I'm, you know, maybe it's different 131 00:06:47,448 --> 00:06:50,493 in other places, but I never really thought about that 132 00:06:50,493 --> 00:06:53,704 until I started looking into this a little more, you know, a few years ago 133 00:06:53,704 --> 00:06:57,417 and was just like, That this is something I'm not even aware of. 134 00:06:57,792 --> 00:06:59,877 You know, and so here we are. 135 00:06:59,877 --> 00:07:05,591 And maybe that's be worth digging into with some people of, like. Why? 136 00:07:05,591 --> 00:07:06,551 Why is that? 137 00:07:06,551 --> 00:07:09,512 But anyway, I think you were going to take us down 138 00:07:09,512 --> 00:07:11,806 the history lane, a little bit of the early Anabaptists 139 00:07:11,806 --> 00:07:14,642 and what they would have said about the creeds. Yeah. 140 00:07:14,642 --> 00:07:16,644 A little bit with a few quotes. 141 00:07:16,644 --> 00:07:19,647 Starting with the complete writings about assignments. 142 00:07:19,939 --> 00:07:23,734 You’re going to read the complete writings of Menno Simons to us one, one piece. 143 00:07:24,402 --> 00:07:26,821 Menno Simons is 144 00:07:26,821 --> 00:07:30,283 responding to somebody named. 145 00:07:33,244 --> 00:07:34,287 I wish I knew German. 146 00:07:34,287 --> 00:07:37,957 It looks to me like Julius Faber, although it feels wrong to say it that way. 147 00:07:38,958 --> 00:07:41,544 Anyways, he's responding to this individual, 148 00:07:41,544 --> 00:07:46,507 and he says, therefore, observe that which I write, and let it be unto you. 149 00:07:46,507 --> 00:07:50,261 A certain rule, namely, where the spirit, word, 150 00:07:50,470 --> 00:07:53,848 sacraments, and life of Christ are found there. 151 00:07:53,890 --> 00:07:56,893 The Nicene article is pertinent. 152 00:07:56,934 --> 00:08:00,730 I believe in one holy Christian church, the communion of saints, etc. 153 00:08:01,355 --> 00:08:05,359 but where the spirit, word, sacraments, and life of Christ are not found, but 154 00:08:05,359 --> 00:08:09,489 where the spirit doctrines, sacraments, and life of Antichrist are found there. 155 00:08:09,489 --> 00:08:12,575 The church of Antichrist is, and not the Church of Christ. 156 00:08:12,992 --> 00:08:15,995 Although we might boast a thousand times, 157 00:08:15,995 --> 00:08:18,998 I believe in one Holy Christian church, etc., 158 00:08:19,207 --> 00:08:22,877 for without or against the Spirit of Christ, His word, 159 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:27,757 sacraments, and life, there can in all eternity be no Christian church. 160 00:08:28,299 --> 00:08:30,301 Twist the matter as you please. 161 00:08:30,301 --> 00:08:32,345 The word stands immutable. 162 00:08:32,345 --> 00:08:37,475 Whosoever transgresses and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God. 163 00:08:39,477 --> 00:08:42,480 Obviously he was aware of the creed. 164 00:08:43,314 --> 00:08:45,691 He was affirming the Creed. 165 00:08:45,691 --> 00:08:49,278 In this instance, the Nicene Creed, not the Apostle's Creed. 166 00:08:49,904 --> 00:08:53,199 It's interesting though, because he's saying. 167 00:08:54,784 --> 00:08:59,580 Even if you don't, if you have this, this then the creed is pertinent. 168 00:08:59,789 --> 00:09:04,168 But if you don't you can say this a thousand times and it doesn't matter. 169 00:09:05,044 --> 00:09:08,047 Which is interesting because isn't that a lot of the things 170 00:09:08,130 --> 00:09:11,133 the early Anabaptists would have emphasized is you have to live it. 171 00:09:11,133 --> 00:09:12,885 You have to walk this thing out. 172 00:09:12,885 --> 00:09:16,222 Even if you affirm this creed and you're not living, your life doesn't align. 173 00:09:16,222 --> 00:09:18,975 And how your your churches aren't aligning with it doesn't matter. 174 00:09:18,975 --> 00:09:20,142 You can say it a thousand times. 175 00:09:20,142 --> 00:09:23,145 It doesn't doesn't apply. 176 00:09:23,145 --> 00:09:24,647 I don't know if that's part of the story there. 177 00:09:24,647 --> 00:09:26,148 That emphasis on how we live. 178 00:09:27,316 --> 00:09:28,693 Seems pretty significant to me. 179 00:09:28,693 --> 00:09:31,696 Yeah. That does seem to be a part of it. 180 00:09:32,029 --> 00:09:33,948 So we go on to my next primary source. 181 00:09:33,948 --> 00:09:35,283 Yeah. Go ahead. Okay. 182 00:09:35,283 --> 00:09:38,703 Next primary source is from Anabaptism 183 00:09:38,703 --> 00:09:41,706 in Outline 184 00:09:42,039 --> 00:09:44,917 edited by 185 00:09:44,917 --> 00:09:48,087 Walter Clauson, currently published by Plow. 186 00:09:48,087 --> 00:09:51,090 Though many editions in circulation 187 00:09:51,299 --> 00:09:54,719 are published by another publisher, so. 188 00:09:55,511 --> 00:09:59,974 On page 25 of Anabaptism in Outline. 189 00:09:59,974 --> 00:10:04,812 Balthasar Hubmaier, Elaborates 190 00:10:05,187 --> 00:10:09,442 on the Apostles Creed and kind of paraphrases it. 191 00:10:09,442 --> 00:10:11,736 Makes it more personal to his experience. 192 00:10:11,736 --> 00:10:13,112 I'm not going to read the whole thing, 193 00:10:13,112 --> 00:10:16,115 but I'll read enough to give you a feel for how he treats it. 194 00:10:16,907 --> 00:10:20,536 I believe also in Jesus Christ, your only son, our Lord. 195 00:10:20,911 --> 00:10:25,416 I believe that he has made atonement to you, my father, for the fall, 196 00:10:25,958 --> 00:10:29,920 that he has made peace between you and me, who am a poor sinner. 197 00:10:31,297 --> 00:10:33,507 Skipping out to the next paragraph. 198 00:10:33,507 --> 00:10:35,635 Also, I believe and confess, 199 00:10:35,635 --> 00:10:39,013 my Lord Jesus Christ, that you were conceived through the Holy Spirit 200 00:10:39,013 --> 00:10:42,224 without human need and born of Mary, pure and eternally chaste Virgin. 201 00:10:42,933 --> 00:10:44,435 Another paragraph down. 202 00:10:44,435 --> 00:10:47,647 I believe and confess that you suffered under the judge, Pontius Pilate, 203 00:10:48,648 --> 00:10:51,192 that you were crucified, dead, and buried. 204 00:10:51,192 --> 00:10:54,028 All this you did on account of my sins, in order that you might save me 205 00:10:54,028 --> 00:10:55,905 from eternal suffering, torment, and death. 206 00:10:55,905 --> 00:11:01,202 So it's not just a direct, literal quotation recitation of the Creed, 207 00:11:01,535 --> 00:11:03,621 but he takes each point and elaborates on it, 208 00:11:03,621 --> 00:11:06,957 which is fascinating, that that personalization, turning it 209 00:11:06,957 --> 00:11:09,710 into a direct prayer. 210 00:11:09,710 --> 00:11:12,713 Do you know what year he is writing this. 211 00:11:12,963 --> 00:11:17,301 1526 through 27 is what it says at the top of the page 212 00:11:17,593 --> 00:11:20,596 within the first year or two of the Anabaptist movement starting 213 00:11:20,596 --> 00:11:21,347 appears to be, yes. 214 00:11:23,557 --> 00:11:24,600 And the 215 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,603 third, the third primary source that I would like to mention 216 00:11:27,853 --> 00:11:31,065 that unfortunately we don't have here. 217 00:11:31,399 --> 00:11:32,900 Do we have an Ausbund nearby. 218 00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:34,360 We don't have one nearby. 219 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,612 So I can't quote it exactly. 220 00:11:36,612 --> 00:11:40,282 But for those who have it available look at the second psalm, 221 00:11:40,574 --> 00:11:42,618 the second song in it. 222 00:11:42,618 --> 00:11:45,621 It is a 223 00:11:45,663 --> 00:11:49,500 I believe, it’s the Apostle's Creed set to music is it word for word 224 00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:53,087 or it has been somewhat modified for their purposes? 225 00:11:53,379 --> 00:11:55,297 I believe it's been modified. 226 00:11:55,297 --> 00:11:57,717 I can't say exactly how, since I don't have it in front of me. 227 00:11:57,717 --> 00:12:00,386 How about that? I that's that's interesting. 228 00:12:00,386 --> 00:12:02,346 Do you know what year that would have been done? 229 00:12:02,346 --> 00:12:04,014 I mean, that's very early Anabaptist. 230 00:12:04,014 --> 00:12:06,475 I don’t remember. Yeah. 231 00:12:06,475 --> 00:12:09,478 And maybe somebody listening to this, would also know 232 00:12:10,020 --> 00:12:14,233 is that still used like the Ausbund is still used by all these churches. 233 00:12:14,859 --> 00:12:16,777 Is that particular song commonly used? 234 00:12:18,279 --> 00:12:18,529 Yeah. 235 00:12:18,529 --> 00:12:19,697 Somebody should let us know. 236 00:12:19,697 --> 00:12:20,364 That would. Yeah. 237 00:12:20,364 --> 00:12:23,367 That would be really interesting to know. So, 238 00:12:23,993 --> 00:12:28,205 so the early Anabaptist clearly had an awareness of these creeds. 239 00:12:28,205 --> 00:12:31,208 I mean yeah, that's pretty straightforward. 240 00:12:31,917 --> 00:12:36,756 Any thought on why we don't talk about them that much anymore? 241 00:12:36,797 --> 00:12:39,925 And when I say that, I mean, at least from my own experience 242 00:12:40,342 --> 00:12:43,304 in the American Mennonite scene. 243 00:12:44,889 --> 00:12:47,892 Any any thought on what's happening there? 244 00:12:47,975 --> 00:12:50,394 I could only conjecture. 245 00:12:50,394 --> 00:12:53,439 I can't do much more than conjecture either. 246 00:12:54,482 --> 00:12:57,359 I think it's a little wider than Mennonites, though. 247 00:12:57,359 --> 00:12:59,653 I think it's been 248 00:12:59,653 --> 00:13:02,656 low church Protestantism as well. 249 00:13:03,407 --> 00:13:06,660 I don't think it's been uniquely Mennonites 250 00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:10,581 that have paid less attention to them recently. 251 00:13:11,582 --> 00:13:14,376 In recent years, the Southern Baptist Convention 252 00:13:14,376 --> 00:13:16,921 was making the creeds a matter of discussion. 253 00:13:16,921 --> 00:13:17,671 Interesting. 254 00:13:18,631 --> 00:13:19,840 I wonder what triggered that. 255 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,384 And I say recently 256 00:13:22,384 --> 00:13:25,387 I'm thinking, you know, the last 50 to 100 years, 257 00:13:26,013 --> 00:13:29,016 I think there's a maybe an uptick in interest, 258 00:13:30,184 --> 00:13:33,896 low church becoming more interested in creedal formulations, 259 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,775 along with other things that low both, you know, low church 260 00:13:37,775 --> 00:13:40,903 Protestants and low church Anabaptists becoming more interested in 261 00:13:42,404 --> 00:13:44,615 other things that come from the early centuries 262 00:13:44,615 --> 00:13:47,618 of Christianity, like liturgical calendars and 263 00:13:48,327 --> 00:13:51,330 the seasons of the church year, and things like that. 264 00:13:51,747 --> 00:13:54,542 But yeah, why don't we use the Apostle's Creed? 265 00:13:54,542 --> 00:13:57,044 I don't know, 266 00:13:57,044 --> 00:14:01,048 In, in some church context it would be used on a very routine 267 00:14:01,048 --> 00:14:04,802 basis within the service I assume, and other interactions. 268 00:14:04,802 --> 00:14:06,929 Like I don't have much familiarity with that. 269 00:14:06,929 --> 00:14:09,932 Do you have input there. 270 00:14:10,474 --> 00:14:14,478 And I believe it would be routine in a lot of churches 271 00:14:15,521 --> 00:14:18,524 as a structured part of what we do. 272 00:14:18,899 --> 00:14:21,443 On a Sunday morning. 273 00:14:21,443 --> 00:14:24,446 But those are churches that are very different from, 274 00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:27,324 from the experiences I've had. 275 00:14:27,324 --> 00:14:27,533 Yeah. 276 00:14:27,533 --> 00:14:30,661 Most of my experience with liturgical churches is from the Episcopal Church. 277 00:14:30,661 --> 00:14:33,914 And I do believe that it's a somewhat routine part of their liturgy. 278 00:14:35,583 --> 00:14:38,544 Yeah I think, I think there could be a lot of value in 279 00:14:39,420 --> 00:14:41,338 in raising the awareness level of this 280 00:14:41,338 --> 00:14:44,800 or bringing it into church setting somehow. 281 00:14:44,884 --> 00:14:46,427 I'm not quite sure what that would look like. 282 00:14:46,427 --> 00:14:48,512 I feel like I need to get my head around it a bit more. 283 00:14:48,512 --> 00:14:51,515 But I found it valuable in my own life. 284 00:14:52,308 --> 00:14:55,102 You know, the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed 285 00:14:55,102 --> 00:14:57,855 and just at least having a good awareness of it 286 00:14:57,855 --> 00:15:00,774 and the background of where it comes from it’s 287 00:15:00,774 --> 00:15:03,652 been you know, with the church for a very long time, you know, 288 00:15:03,652 --> 00:15:06,947 and I think there's there's value in these declarations of faith. 289 00:15:07,072 --> 00:15:07,364 Yeah. 290 00:15:07,364 --> 00:15:09,491 And I mean you can recite it and you can, 291 00:15:09,491 --> 00:15:12,494 you know, no longer think about what you're reciting and so on. 292 00:15:13,245 --> 00:15:15,789 But I do have to think about how, 293 00:15:17,249 --> 00:15:17,625 you know, 294 00:15:17,625 --> 00:15:20,628 just regular attention to the Apostle's Creed, 295 00:15:21,462 --> 00:15:23,047 could help with some things 296 00:15:23,047 --> 00:15:26,050 we've struggled with. 297 00:15:26,884 --> 00:15:29,887 Yes. I think Mennonites have affirmed the Apostle's Creed. 298 00:15:30,512 --> 00:15:33,515 But there's things we tend to get 299 00:15:34,183 --> 00:15:37,186 fuzzy on, and church tends to get fuzzy on. 300 00:15:37,394 --> 00:15:39,730 So one of the items of the creed, like, 301 00:15:39,730 --> 00:15:42,483 you know, I believe in the resurrection of the body. 302 00:15:42,483 --> 00:15:46,028 Okay, that's pretty fundamental to Christianity. But. 303 00:15:47,321 --> 00:15:51,200 You know, it has not been uncommon to talk about resurrection or, 304 00:15:51,825 --> 00:15:55,663 you know, the future life in ways that you almost don't 305 00:15:55,663 --> 00:15:58,999 need to raise the body because, you know, you go to heaven when you die. 306 00:15:58,999 --> 00:16:01,835 And that's the Christian hope, 307 00:16:01,835 --> 00:16:05,297 you know, would we have struggled less with that, downplaying the resurrection 308 00:16:05,297 --> 00:16:07,216 if, you know, we were routinely saying, 309 00:16:07,216 --> 00:16:11,220 I believe in the resurrection of the body, like this is fundamental, 310 00:16:12,179 --> 00:16:16,934 or. the centrality of 311 00:16:16,976 --> 00:16:19,979 the kingdom of God in the gospel. 312 00:16:20,938 --> 00:16:22,815 Well, right there in the Creed, like, you know, 313 00:16:22,815 --> 00:16:25,818 Jesus ascended and is seated at the right hand of the father, like 314 00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:29,780 just tremendously important. 315 00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:31,365 And, you know, just 316 00:16:31,365 --> 00:16:35,703 hammering that in a more regular use of a creed, I think would be helpful 317 00:16:35,703 --> 00:16:38,706 because it is one of those things that tends to get missed. 318 00:16:39,623 --> 00:16:42,167 Or, tends to be under 319 00:16:42,167 --> 00:16:45,170 emphasized, underappreciated, I should say. 320 00:16:46,547 --> 00:16:46,922 Yeah. 321 00:16:46,922 --> 00:16:50,634 Jaran is there more you had on the Creed that you'd like to add. 322 00:16:52,428 --> 00:16:55,431 No, I don't believe so, 323 00:16:55,472 --> 00:16:58,475 Other than just the fact that 324 00:16:58,809 --> 00:17:01,812 it's important for how we see ourselves, 325 00:17:02,896 --> 00:17:05,899 how we see ourselves in relation to 326 00:17:07,026 --> 00:17:08,944 the church 327 00:17:08,944 --> 00:17:11,947 and history and so on. 328 00:17:12,823 --> 00:17:13,866 A couple angles. 329 00:17:13,866 --> 00:17:15,617 One, we can get fixated in our moment. 330 00:17:15,617 --> 00:17:18,537 You know, we read the New Testament, and then there's us, 331 00:17:20,122 --> 00:17:20,914 and we can miss 332 00:17:20,914 --> 00:17:23,917 some of the connections in between something like the Apostles Creed. 333 00:17:24,752 --> 00:17:26,628 You know, it's developed very early in the church. 334 00:17:26,628 --> 00:17:29,465 Nicene Creed, not much later. 335 00:17:29,465 --> 00:17:32,468 And was where a lot of things were, 336 00:17:33,469 --> 00:17:36,472 you know, the Nicene Creed is what really put a stake in the ground 337 00:17:36,555 --> 00:17:39,641 in terms of a orthodox understanding of the Trinity. 338 00:17:40,893 --> 00:17:43,645 Didn't solve all the 339 00:17:43,645 --> 00:17:46,648 all the questions or problems, but, you know, 340 00:17:47,066 --> 00:17:50,069 one God, three persons. 341 00:17:50,069 --> 00:17:52,988 The stake was really put there. 342 00:17:52,988 --> 00:17:57,743 And, you know, it's really important just to say yes. 343 00:17:57,743 --> 00:18:00,746 Like, we are in continuity with the church. 344 00:18:01,622 --> 00:18:04,625 And probably especially 345 00:18:05,959 --> 00:18:06,460 okay. 346 00:18:06,460 --> 00:18:09,463 So especially as Anabaptists, 347 00:18:10,172 --> 00:18:12,549 important to put that stake in. 348 00:18:12,549 --> 00:18:15,135 And I'm just thinking back, 349 00:18:15,135 --> 00:18:18,722 the Reformation 500 years ago. So, 350 00:18:20,307 --> 00:18:23,310 you know, for a lot of Protestants, 351 00:18:23,894 --> 00:18:26,897 they were making a significant break, 352 00:18:27,231 --> 00:18:30,776 with the Catholic Church, while also, of course, 353 00:18:30,776 --> 00:18:34,404 wanting to affirm, no, you know, we're correcting things that went wrong. 354 00:18:34,404 --> 00:18:37,116 We're not cutting ourselves off from the church. 355 00:18:37,116 --> 00:18:39,243 We're reforming things. 356 00:18:39,243 --> 00:18:43,455 Anabaptists in many ways took. 357 00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:48,377 Took some changes further, 358 00:18:48,377 --> 00:18:51,421 than the official Protestant Reformation. 359 00:18:52,339 --> 00:18:55,092 You know, including things like 360 00:18:55,092 --> 00:18:56,969 believer's baptism 361 00:18:56,969 --> 00:19:01,223 and really repudiating the the infant baptism model and so on. 362 00:19:01,223 --> 00:19:04,226 This, you know, this big break. 363 00:19:04,810 --> 00:19:06,645 But it could be 364 00:19:06,645 --> 00:19:09,648 could be very easy for us to overemphasize the break 365 00:19:10,816 --> 00:19:13,443 and, you know, act like we're cut off or whatever. 366 00:19:13,443 --> 00:19:16,405 And I think. 367 00:19:17,447 --> 00:19:17,698 You know, 368 00:19:17,698 --> 00:19:20,701 some use of the creeds and similar things to say, 369 00:19:21,827 --> 00:19:23,704 look, now, this is fundamental. 370 00:19:23,704 --> 00:19:25,497 This is Christian like, we're not 371 00:19:26,832 --> 00:19:27,291 we're not the 372 00:19:27,291 --> 00:19:30,294 29th chapter of acts here. Like 373 00:19:30,377 --> 00:19:31,712 there's a lot more to the story. 374 00:19:31,712 --> 00:19:34,756 And we are we're not breaking away like, yes, 375 00:19:35,841 --> 00:19:38,594 we think we had some important things to correct 376 00:19:38,594 --> 00:19:40,137 that had developed over the centuries. 377 00:19:40,137 --> 00:19:45,350 But we confess one holy Catholic church and continuity over, 378 00:19:45,934 --> 00:19:50,814 over the centuries and so on Dig into the the one holy 379 00:19:50,814 --> 00:19:53,942 Catholic Church in the Apostle's Creed, that terminology, it's used. 380 00:19:54,318 --> 00:19:57,321 Because now people are going to be like, oh, the Roman Catholic Church. 381 00:19:57,654 --> 00:20:00,073 That's not what it's referring to there. 382 00:20:00,073 --> 00:20:01,408 Do you want to unpack that just a bit 383 00:20:01,408 --> 00:20:03,702 to make sure that's not confusing for people to be like, 384 00:20:03,702 --> 00:20:05,537 wait a minute, I thought y'all were Anabaptists. 385 00:20:05,537 --> 00:20:08,498 And what's this with the Catholic? 386 00:20:08,498 --> 00:20:11,210 Yeah. Explain that. So the term Catholic is 387 00:20:12,252 --> 00:20:14,671 much older. 388 00:20:14,671 --> 00:20:17,341 Obviously you got the Apostles Creed, 389 00:20:17,341 --> 00:20:21,261 you know, the whole church, the universal church. 390 00:20:21,637 --> 00:20:24,932 You know, it did become. 391 00:20:26,934 --> 00:20:28,143 It did become a term 392 00:20:28,143 --> 00:20:33,065 that was used kind of in definition with, again, some of the struggles 393 00:20:33,065 --> 00:20:37,152 with heresy, things that needed to be defined, with some schisms. 394 00:20:39,071 --> 00:20:41,490 You know, I can't say it was used perfectly. 395 00:20:41,490 --> 00:20:43,283 But that sense of, 396 00:20:43,283 --> 00:20:46,286 you know, one church I think goes along with the communion of the saints, 397 00:20:46,828 --> 00:20:49,831 there is a connection among Christ's people. 398 00:20:50,415 --> 00:20:54,795 Christ has one body and. 399 00:20:55,837 --> 00:20:56,088 Yeah. 400 00:20:56,088 --> 00:20:59,967 I think that is a profoundly important term to retain. 401 00:21:01,176 --> 00:21:04,763 And now it's not a monopoly of the Roman Catholic Church or 402 00:21:05,681 --> 00:21:08,684 or the Pope or whatever. 403 00:21:09,184 --> 00:21:10,978 It's a theological affirmation. 404 00:21:11,979 --> 00:21:12,229 And I 405 00:21:12,229 --> 00:21:15,232 think it's actually it's one that's good for. 406 00:21:16,316 --> 00:21:17,818 it's I think a really good reminder, 407 00:21:17,818 --> 00:21:21,863 maybe particularly for our Anabaptist or other 408 00:21:22,572 --> 00:21:25,575 low church tendencies, 409 00:21:25,784 --> 00:21:28,787 we tend to be very congregational about church, 410 00:21:28,912 --> 00:21:31,415 you know, churches where believers are gathered together 411 00:21:31,415 --> 00:21:34,418 and you have a church, a church here, a church there. 412 00:21:35,210 --> 00:21:37,671 And I agree with that. 413 00:21:37,671 --> 00:21:40,966 The vast majority of the time that the term church is used in the new Testament, 414 00:21:41,508 --> 00:21:45,512 it's like talking about specific churches, specific gatherings, like, you know, 415 00:21:46,179 --> 00:21:49,433 there's one in the city, one in that city, there's one in this person's house, 416 00:21:49,641 --> 00:21:53,478 I guess, talking about, you know, concrete gathering, not some not, 417 00:21:53,812 --> 00:21:56,315 you know, a broad universal thing. 418 00:21:56,315 --> 00:22:00,819 But at the same time, there is the real thread there that it's one church and that, 419 00:22:02,237 --> 00:22:05,240 you know, all these little churches aren't just like 420 00:22:05,574 --> 00:22:07,701 independent things. 421 00:22:07,701 --> 00:22:10,287 And I'm not talking about church government structure there. 422 00:22:10,287 --> 00:22:13,290 I'm talking about just, you know, realizing, 423 00:22:14,416 --> 00:22:16,710 you know, Jesus church is bigger 424 00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:20,505 than it's exemplified in particular bodies in particular gatherings. 425 00:22:20,505 --> 00:22:23,508 It is bigger, it is global. 426 00:22:24,009 --> 00:22:26,094 It is across time and place. 427 00:22:26,094 --> 00:22:29,097 I think, 428 00:22:29,431 --> 00:22:32,434 and, you know, this is maybe taking it a little bit further, but 429 00:22:32,726 --> 00:22:36,605 there's the one song we sing sometimes speaks about the church in earth 430 00:22:36,605 --> 00:22:38,273 and heaven. 431 00:22:38,273 --> 00:22:42,652 And I think, you know, language of the communion of saints 432 00:22:42,652 --> 00:22:45,947 and the one holy Catholic Church can help us to appreciate 433 00:22:45,947 --> 00:22:48,950 that as well. 434 00:22:48,992 --> 00:22:50,160 Yeah, that's 435 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,122 some pretty interesting context that you all have added here. 436 00:22:54,122 --> 00:22:57,084 And I think it's important pieces to keep in mind. 437 00:22:57,084 --> 00:23:00,170 I guess I want to also say to the person who left the comment, 438 00:23:00,212 --> 00:23:02,547 we appreciate that we we enjoy the engagement 439 00:23:02,547 --> 00:23:05,759 and feedback that we get from people, and we encourage that in the future. 440 00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:08,637 People have more input or something. 441 00:23:08,637 --> 00:23:12,391 Perhaps on this topic that they want to add, some, some thoughts to. 442 00:23:12,391 --> 00:23:15,936 And also thanks to Jaran for compiling these, different sources. 443 00:23:16,395 --> 00:23:17,854 Yes. 444 00:23:17,854 --> 00:23:21,817 As we wrap this episode to a close, I think one thing we could 445 00:23:21,817 --> 00:23:24,903 agree on is we would encourage people after this. 446 00:23:24,903 --> 00:23:27,864 Go look up the Nicene Creed, go read the Apostle's Creed. 447 00:23:27,864 --> 00:23:29,533 And make yourself familiar with it. 448 00:23:29,533 --> 00:23:32,369 I think that'd be a good thing people could do. 449 00:23:32,369 --> 00:23:32,702 And is. 450 00:23:32,702 --> 00:23:32,911 Yeah. 451 00:23:32,911 --> 00:23:34,454 Is there anything else you'd like to add? 452 00:23:34,454 --> 00:23:37,124 For the listeners as we bring it to a close that's a great starting point. 453 00:23:37,124 --> 00:23:38,375 Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, 454 00:23:39,835 --> 00:23:41,795 yeah, I think I think we'll end it there then. 455 00:23:42,754 --> 00:23:44,631 Thanks for listening to this episode. 456 00:23:44,631 --> 00:23:45,841 If you found this interesting, 457 00:23:45,841 --> 00:23:49,177 you might want to check out this other episode we did with Kyle 458 00:23:49,177 --> 00:23:52,764 Stoltzfus and Stephen Russell on The great tradition 459 00:23:52,764 --> 00:23:55,767 and how that applies to us as Christians today. 460 00:23:55,809 --> 00:23:58,687 And you can find that linked in the description down below. 461 00:23:58,687 --> 00:24:01,356 Thanks again for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.