Yes. I think Mennonites have affirmed the Apostle's Creed.
But there's things we tend to get
fuzzy on, and church tends to get fuzzy on.
So one of the items of the creed, like,
you know, I believe in the resurrection of the body.
Okay, that's pretty fundamental to Christianity. But.
You know, it has not been uncommon to talk about resurrection or,
you know, the future life in ways that you almost don't
need to raise the body because, you know, you go to heaven when you die.
And that's the Christian hope,
you know, would we have struggled less with that, downplaying the resurrection
if, you know, we were routinely saying, I believe in the resurrection of the body,
like this is fundamental,
So on this podcast,
we get a fair amount of interaction from the audience,
people sending us emails, leaving comments and things like that.
And there is one question that actually you and I did on a partners
episode, which people can go to the website
to see the partner program, but we're going to dive into that a bit.
Here on the main channel and a few other things as well,
because feel it has a lot of relevance for our audience.
And someone named Travis left us this comment.
I'll just read this and then, you can respond says,
which of the early church creeds can Anabaptists affirm?
And that got us thinking a bit of the Anabaptists and the creeds,
and how, at least in my own experience, I just haven't thought about it that much.
So you did a little bit of digging on that, and, I'd be.
Yeah.
Interested in what you have to share with us here, Jaran?
Yeah.
This question brings to mind, the episode that we did with David Bercot.
It was actually a lecture that he presented where he spoke
about the Trinity.
I think it's a lecture that we can recommend to our audience
sometime in the course of that episode, he asked the audience of,
presumably Mennonites, how many people
he asked how many are familiar with the Apostle's Creed.
And you were there, I believe I wasn't.
Did you see how many hands went up?
It wasn't many.
I wish I could remember percentages.
It was about 40 people there, and they were all Mennonites.
Yeah, And that was the Apostle's Creed or the Nicene Creed
or both?
Did go down even lower with the Nicene Creed.
I think he asked both.
We might have to
I might have to dig up some old footage and see if I can find, like,
how many people actually raise their hands.
But it was not many, No.
Well, whichever the case, I think that it's sad and too bad
that we are not more cognizant of the creeds
because they matter and we do affirm them.
We are Orthodox Christians.
There's a blog post that I would.
Oh, we should read the Creed first, shouldn't we?
I was going to say yes.
So, This is interesting that you mentioned this, that it feels like there
isn't that much familiarity.
That would be in my own personal experience.
I honestly, I wasn't familiar
with the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed,
a lot of these things until I went looking for it.
And it's talking to different people in my life,
and they're like, Apostle's Creed, I don't know.
I've never, never read that. Like, I don't I don't know what that even is.
And, so yeah, why don't we actually, just before we launch too deep,
just read this.
The Apostle's Creed, I have the Apostle's Creed in front of me.
It is. It is brief.
I believe in
God, the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
From there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.
Amen.
That is the Apostle's Creed.
And we affirm it.
There is a blog post written by Christina
Moss on anabaptisthistorians.org.
She posted this in 2020.
I think she summarizes things quite well.
In the four years since I first began attending a Mennonite church.
I have sometimes heard Anabaptist referred to as non creedal Christians.
It is certainly true that when asked to describe what it means
to be Anabaptist, most Anabaptist will understandably give an answer
that prioritizes doctrines and practices that are not common
to the majority of Christian churches, particularly pacifism or creedo baptism.
Similarly, when drawing doctrinal boundaries around their churches,
something they were as ready to do as the state churches,
though not at the point of the sword.
Anabaptists have tended to appeal to Scripture directly since it,
since its authority superseded any creeds
and confessions, however valuable.
Nevertheless, insofar as the Apostle’s and Nicene Creeds
can be said to summarize the essentials of the Christian faith.
The earliest Anabaptists upheld these teachings, with only a few exceptions.
What she says resonates with my experience
about how Anabaptists tend to talk about things.
But I do believe that
she is right that the earliest,
the earliest Anabaptists upheld the teachings
of the creeds
and made explicit references to them in their writings.
So we still uphold the teachings
of the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed.
But yeah, we don't tend to reference them as much,
which I think might be where you're going, like they did reference them.
Fortunately, I did learn the Apostle's Creed in school as a school assignment.
But yeah, yeah, not all of us have experienced that.
Well and I think
Christina Moss in that
article does raise a point that I would resonate from my own experience of
we're pretty quick to point out, oh, yeah, as Anabaptists, we believe in,
you know, radical and b love and separation from the world and two
kingdoms and, you know, saying all those things which are true.
But not going to say the Apostles Creed
or some of those fundamentals of this is Orthodox Christianity.
Not that we don't believe those things.
It's just it isn't really part of the experience for many of our people.
And when I say that, I'm,
I'm saying to American Mennonites, because that's my own experience.
I'm, you know, maybe it's different
in other places, but I never really thought about that
until I started looking into this a little more, you know, a few years ago
and was just like, That this is something I'm not even aware of.
You know, and so here we are.
And maybe that's be worth digging into with some people of, like. Why?
Why is that?
But anyway, I think you were going to take us down
the history lane, a little bit of the early Anabaptists
and what they would have said about the creeds. Yeah.
A little bit with a few quotes.
Starting with the complete writings about assignments.
You’re going to read the complete writings of Menno Simons to us one, one piece.
Menno Simons is
responding to somebody named.
I wish I knew German.
It looks to me like Julius Faber, although it feels wrong to say it that way.
Anyways, he's responding to this individual,
and he says, therefore, observe that which I write, and let it be unto you.
A certain rule, namely, where the spirit, word,
sacraments, and life of Christ are found there.
The Nicene article is pertinent.
I believe in one holy Christian church, the communion of saints, etc.
but where the spirit, word, sacraments, and life of Christ are not found, but
where the spirit doctrines, sacraments, and life of Antichrist are found there.
The church of Antichrist is, and not the Church of Christ.
Although we might boast a thousand times,
I believe in one Holy Christian church, etc.,
for without or against the Spirit of Christ, His word,
sacraments, and life, there can in all eternity be no Christian church.
Twist the matter as you please.
The word stands immutable.
Whosoever transgresses and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God.
Obviously he was aware of the creed.
He was affirming the Creed.
In this instance, the Nicene Creed, not the Apostle's Creed.
It's interesting though, because he's saying.
Even if you don't, if you have this, this then the creed is pertinent.
But if you don't you can say this a thousand times and it doesn't matter.
Which is interesting because isn't that a lot of the things
the early Anabaptists would have emphasized is you have to live it.
You have to walk this thing out.
Even if you affirm this creed and you're not living, your life doesn't align.
And how your your churches aren't aligning with it doesn't matter.
You can say it a thousand times.
It doesn't doesn't apply.
I don't know if that's part of the story there.
That emphasis on how we live.
Seems pretty significant to me.
Yeah. That does seem to be a part of it.
So we go on to my next primary source.
Yeah. Go ahead. Okay.
Next primary source is from Anabaptism
in Outline
edited by
Walter Clauson, currently published by Plow.
Though many editions in circulation
are published by another publisher, so.
On page 25 of Anabaptism in Outline.
Balthasar Hubmaier, Elaborates
on the Apostles Creed and kind of paraphrases it.
Makes it more personal to his experience.
I'm not going to read the whole thing,
but I'll read enough to give you a feel for how he treats it.
I believe also in Jesus Christ, your only son, our Lord.
I believe that he has made atonement to you, my father, for the fall,
that he has made peace between you and me, who am a poor sinner.
Skipping out to the next paragraph.
Also, I believe and confess,
my Lord Jesus Christ, that you were conceived through the Holy Spirit
without human need and born of Mary, pure and eternally chaste Virgin.
Another paragraph down.
I believe and confess that you suffered under the judge, Pontius Pilate,
that you were crucified, dead, and buried.
All this you did on account of my sins, in order that you might save me
from eternal suffering, torment, and death.
So it's not just a direct, literal quotation recitation of the Creed,
but he takes each point and elaborates on it,
which is fascinating, that that personalization, turning it
into a direct prayer.
Do you know what year he is writing this.
1526 through 27 is what it says at the top of the page
within the first year or two of the Anabaptist movement starting
appears to be, yes.
And the
third, the third primary source that I would like to mention
that unfortunately we don't have here.
Do we have an Ausbund nearby.
We don't have one nearby.
So I can't quote it exactly.
But for those who have it available look at the second psalm,
the second song in it.
It is a
I believe, it’s the Apostle's Creed set to music is it word for word
or it has been somewhat modified for their purposes?
I believe it's been modified.
I can't say exactly how, since I don't have it in front of me.
How about that? I that's that's interesting.
Do you know what year that would have been done?
I mean, that's very early Anabaptist.
I don’t remember. Yeah.
And maybe somebody listening to this, would also know
is that still used like the Ausbund is still used by all these churches.
Is that particular song commonly used?
Yeah.
Somebody should let us know.
That would. Yeah.
That would be really interesting to know. So,
so the early Anabaptist clearly had an awareness of these creeds.
I mean yeah, that's pretty straightforward.
Any thought on why we don't talk about them that much anymore?
And when I say that, I mean, at least from my own experience
in the American Mennonite scene.
Any any thought on what's happening there?
I could only conjecture.
I can't do much more than conjecture either.
I think it's a little wider than Mennonites, though.
I think it's been
low church Protestantism as well.
I don't think it's been uniquely Mennonites
that have paid less attention to them recently.
In recent years, the Southern Baptist Convention
was making the creeds a matter of discussion.
Interesting.
I wonder what triggered that.
And I say recently
I'm thinking, you know, the last 50 to 100 years,
I think there's a maybe an uptick in interest,
low church becoming more interested in creedal formulations,
along with other things that low both, you know, low church
Protestants and low church Anabaptists becoming more interested in
other things that come from the early centuries
of Christianity, like liturgical calendars and
the seasons of the church year, and things like that.
But yeah, why don't we use the Apostle's Creed?
I don't know,
In, in some church context it would be used on a very routine
basis within the service I assume, and other interactions.
Like I don't have much familiarity with that.
Do you have input there.
And I believe it would be routine in a lot of churches
as a structured part of what we do.
On a Sunday morning.
But those are churches that are very different from,
from the experiences I've had.
Yeah.
Most of my experience with liturgical churches is from the Episcopal Church.
And I do believe that it's a somewhat routine part of their liturgy.
Yeah I think, I think there could be a lot of value in
in raising the awareness level of this
or bringing it into church setting somehow.
I'm not quite sure what that would look like.
I feel like I need to get my head around it a bit more.
But I found it valuable in my own life.
You know, the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed
and just at least having a good awareness of it
and the background of where it comes from it’s
been you know, with the church for a very long time, you know,
and I think there's there's value in these declarations of faith.
Yeah.
And I mean you can recite it and you can,
you know, no longer think about what you're reciting and so on.
But I do have to think about how,
you know,
just regular attention to the Apostle's Creed,
could help with some things
we've struggled with.
Yes. I think Mennonites have affirmed the Apostle's Creed.
But there's things we tend to get
fuzzy on, and church tends to get fuzzy on.
So one of the items of the creed, like,
you know, I believe in the resurrection of the body.
Okay, that's pretty fundamental to Christianity. But.
You know, it has not been uncommon to talk about resurrection or,
you know, the future life in ways that you almost don't
need to raise the body because, you know, you go to heaven when you die.
And that's the Christian hope,
you know, would we have struggled less with that, downplaying the resurrection
if, you know, we were routinely saying,
I believe in the resurrection of the body, like this is fundamental,
or. the centrality of
the kingdom of God in the gospel.
Well, right there in the Creed, like, you know,
Jesus ascended and is seated at the right hand of the father, like
just tremendously important.
And, you know, just
hammering that in a more regular use of a creed, I think would be helpful
because it is one of those things that tends to get missed.
Or, tends to be under
emphasized, underappreciated, I should say.
Yeah.
Jaran is there more you had on the Creed that you'd like to add.
No, I don't believe so,
Other than just the fact that
it's important for how we see ourselves,
how we see ourselves in relation to
the church
and history and so on.
A couple angles.
One, we can get fixated in our moment.
You know, we read the New Testament, and then there's us,
and we can miss
some of the connections in between something like the Apostles Creed.
You know, it's developed very early in the church.
Nicene Creed, not much later.
And was where a lot of things were,
you know, the Nicene Creed is what really put a stake in the ground
in terms of a orthodox understanding of the Trinity.
Didn't solve all the
all the questions or problems, but, you know,
one God, three persons.
The stake was really put there.
And, you know, it's really important just to say yes.
Like, we are in continuity with the church.
And probably especially
okay.
So especially as Anabaptists,
important to put that stake in.
And I'm just thinking back,
the Reformation 500 years ago. So,
you know, for a lot of Protestants,
they were making a significant break,
with the Catholic Church, while also, of course,
wanting to affirm, no, you know, we're correcting things that went wrong.
We're not cutting ourselves off from the church.
We're reforming things.
Anabaptists in many ways took.
Took some changes further,
than the official Protestant Reformation.
You know, including things like
believer's baptism
and really repudiating the the infant baptism model and so on.
This, you know, this big break.
But it could be
could be very easy for us to overemphasize the break
and, you know, act like we're cut off or whatever.
And I think.
You know,
some use of the creeds and similar things to say,
look, now, this is fundamental.
This is Christian like, we're not
we're not the
29th chapter of acts here. Like
there's a lot more to the story.
And we are we're not breaking away like, yes,
we think we had some important things to correct
that had developed over the centuries.
But we confess one holy Catholic church and continuity over,
over the centuries and so on Dig into the the one holy
Catholic Church in the Apostle's Creed, that terminology, it's used.
Because now people are going to be like, oh, the Roman Catholic Church.
That's not what it's referring to there.
Do you want to unpack that just a bit
to make sure that's not confusing for people to be like,
wait a minute, I thought y'all were Anabaptists.
And what's this with the Catholic?
Yeah. Explain that. So the term Catholic is
much older.
Obviously you got the Apostles Creed,
you know, the whole church, the universal church.
You know, it did become.
It did become a term
that was used kind of in definition with, again, some of the struggles
with heresy, things that needed to be defined, with some schisms.
You know, I can't say it was used perfectly.
But that sense of,
you know, one church I think goes along with the communion of the saints,
there is a connection among Christ's people.
Christ has one body and.
Yeah.
I think that is a profoundly important term to retain.
And now it's not a monopoly of the Roman Catholic Church or
or the Pope or whatever.
It's a theological affirmation.
And I
think it's actually it's one that's good for.
it's I think a really good reminder,
maybe particularly for our Anabaptist or other
low church tendencies,
we tend to be very congregational about church,
you know, churches where believers are gathered together
and you have a church, a church here, a church there.
And I agree with that.
The vast majority of the time that the term church is used in the new Testament,
it's like talking about specific churches, specific gatherings, like, you know,
there's one in the city, one in that city, there's one in this person's house,
I guess, talking about, you know, concrete gathering, not some not,
you know, a broad universal thing.
But at the same time, there is the real thread there that it's one church and that,
you know, all these little churches aren't just like
independent things.
And I'm not talking about church government structure there.
I'm talking about just, you know, realizing,
you know, Jesus church is bigger
than it's exemplified in particular bodies in particular gatherings.
It is bigger, it is global.
It is across time and place.
I think,
and, you know, this is maybe taking it a little bit further, but
there's the one song we sing sometimes speaks about the church in earth
and heaven.
And I think, you know, language of the communion of saints
and the one holy Catholic Church can help us to appreciate
that as well.
Yeah, that's
some pretty interesting context that you all have added here.
And I think it's important pieces to keep in mind.
I guess I want to also say to the person who left the comment,
we appreciate that we we enjoy the engagement
and feedback that we get from people, and we encourage that in the future.
People have more input or something.
Perhaps on this topic that they want to add, some, some thoughts to.
And also thanks to Jaran for compiling these, different sources.
Yes.
As we wrap this episode to a close, I think one thing we could
agree on is we would encourage people after this.
Go look up the Nicene Creed, go read the Apostle's Creed.
And make yourself familiar with it.
I think that'd be a good thing people could do.
And is.
Yeah.
Is there anything else you'd like to add?
For the listeners as we bring it to a close that's a great starting point.
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well,
yeah, I think I think we'll end it there then.
Thanks for listening to this episode.
If you found this interesting,
you might want to check out this other episode we did with Kyle
Stoltzfus and Stephen Russell on The great tradition
and how that applies to us as Christians today.
And you can find that linked in the description down below.
Thanks again for listening, and we'll catch you in the next episode.