Speaker: 00:00:00

Yes. I think Mennonites have affirmed

the Apostle's Creed.

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But there's things we tend to get

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fuzzy

on, and church tends to get fuzzy on.

00:00:09,718 --> 00:00:12,053

So one of the items of the creed, like,

00:00:12,053 --> 00:00:14,806

you know,

I believe in the resurrection of the body.

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Okay, that's pretty fundamental

to Christianity. But.

00:00:19,060 --> 00:00:22,939

You know, it has not been uncommon

to talk about resurrection or,

00:00:23,565 --> 00:00:27,402

you know, the future life in ways

that you almost don't

00:00:27,402 --> 00:00:30,739

need to raise the body because, you know,

you go to heaven when you die.

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And that's the Christian hope,

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you know, would we have struggled less

with that, downplaying the resurrection

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if, you know, we were routinely saying,

I believe in the resurrection of the body,

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like this is fundamental,

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So on this podcast,

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we get a fair amount of interaction

from the audience,

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people sending us emails,

leaving comments and things like that.

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And there is one question

that actually you and I did on a partners

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episode,

which people can go to the website

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to see the partner program,

but we're going to dive into that a bit.

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Here on the main channel

and a few other things as well,

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because feel it has a lot of relevance

for our audience.

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And someone named Travis

left us this comment.

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I'll just read this

and then, you can respond says,

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which of the early church

creeds can Anabaptists affirm?

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And that got us thinking

a bit of the Anabaptists and the creeds,

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and how, at least in my own experience,

I just haven't thought about it that much.

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So you did a little bit of digging on

that, and, I'd be.

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Yeah.

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Interested in what you have to share

with us here, Jaran?

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Yeah.

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This question brings to mind,

the episode that we did with David Bercot.

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It was actually a lecture

that he presented where he spoke

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about the Trinity.

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I think it's a lecture

that we can recommend to our audience

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sometime in the course of that episode,

he asked the audience of,

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presumably Mennonites, how many people

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he asked how many are familiar

with the Apostle's Creed.

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And you were there, I believe I wasn't.

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Did you see how many hands went up?

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It wasn't many.

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I wish I could remember percentages.

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It was about 40 people there,

and they were all Mennonites.

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Yeah, And that was the Apostle's Creed

or the Nicene Creed

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or both?

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Did go down

even lower with the Nicene Creed.

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I think he asked both.

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We might have to

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I might have to dig up some old footage

and see if I can find, like,

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how many people

actually raise their hands.

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But it was not many, No.

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Well, whichever the case,

I think that it's sad and too bad

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that we are not

more cognizant of the creeds

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because they matter and we do affirm them.

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We are Orthodox Christians.

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There's a blog post that I would.

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Oh, we should read the Creed first,

shouldn't we?

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I was going to say yes.

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So, This is interesting that you mentioned

this, that it feels like there

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isn't that much familiarity.

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That would be in my own

personal experience.

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I honestly, I wasn't familiar

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with the Apostle's Creed

and the Nicene Creed,

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a lot of these things

until I went looking for it.

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And it's talking

to different people in my life,

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and they're like, Apostle's Creed,

I don't know.

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I've never, never read that. Like,

I don't I don't know what that even is.

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And, so yeah, why don't we actually,

just before we launch too deep,

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just read this.

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The Apostle's Creed,

I have the Apostle's Creed in front of me.

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It is. It is brief.

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I believe in

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God, the Father Almighty,

creator of heaven and earth.

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I believe in Jesus Christ,

his only son, our Lord,

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who was conceived by the Holy Spirit

and born of the Virgin Mary.

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He suffered under Pontius Pilate,

was crucified, died, and was buried.

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He descended to hell.

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The third day he rose again from the dead.

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He ascended to heaven and is seated at the

right hand of God the Father Almighty.

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From there he will come to judge

the living and the dead.

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I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy Catholic Church,

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the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,

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the resurrection of the body,

and the life everlasting.

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Amen.

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That is the Apostle's Creed.

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And we affirm it.

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There is a blog post written by Christina

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Moss on anabaptisthistorians.org.

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She posted this in 2020.

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I think she summarizes things quite well.

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In the four years since I first began

attending a Mennonite church.

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I have sometimes heard Anabaptist

referred to as non creedal Christians.

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It is certainly true

that when asked to describe what it means

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to be Anabaptist, most Anabaptist

will understandably give an answer

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that prioritizes doctrines and practices

that are not common

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to the majority of Christian churches,

particularly pacifism or creedo baptism.

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Similarly, when drawing doctrinal

boundaries around their churches,

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something they were as ready to do

as the state churches,

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though not at the point of the sword.

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Anabaptists have tended to appeal

to Scripture directly since it,

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since its authority superseded any creeds

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and confessions, however valuable.

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Nevertheless, insofar

as the Apostle’s and Nicene Creeds

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can be said to summarize the essentials

of the Christian faith.

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The earliest Anabaptists upheld these

teachings, with only a few exceptions.

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What she says resonates with my experience

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about how Anabaptists

tend to talk about things.

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But I do believe that

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she is right that the earliest,

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the earliest Anabaptists

upheld the teachings

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of the creeds

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and made explicit references

to them in their writings.

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So we still uphold the teachings

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of the Apostle's Creed

and the Nicene Creed.

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But yeah,

we don't tend to reference them as much,

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which I think might be where you're going,

like they did reference them.

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Fortunately, I did learn the Apostle's

Creed in school as a school assignment.

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But yeah, yeah, not

all of us have experienced that.

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Well and I think

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Christina Moss in that

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article does raise a point that I would

resonate from my own experience of

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we're pretty quick to point out,

oh, yeah, as Anabaptists, we believe in,

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you know, radical and b

love and separation from the world and two

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kingdoms and, you know,

saying all those things which are true.

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But not going to say the Apostles Creed

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or some of those fundamentals of

this is Orthodox Christianity.

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Not that we don't believe those things.

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It's just it isn't really part

of the experience for many of our people.

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And when I say that, I'm,

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I'm saying to American Mennonites,

because that's my own experience.

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I'm, you know, maybe it's different

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in other places,

but I never really thought about that

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until I started looking into this

a little more, you know, a few years ago

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and was just like, That this is something

I'm not even aware of.

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You know, and so here we are.

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And maybe that's be worth digging into

with some people of, like. Why?

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Why is that?

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But anyway,

I think you were going to take us down

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the history lane,

a little bit of the early Anabaptists

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and what they would have said

about the creeds. Yeah.

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A little bit with a few quotes.

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Starting with the complete writings

about assignments.

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You’re going to read the complete writings

of Menno Simons to us one, one piece.

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Menno Simons is

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responding to somebody named.

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I wish I knew German.

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It looks to me like Julius Faber, although

it feels wrong to say it that way.

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Anyways, he's

responding to this individual,

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and he says, therefore, observe that

which I write, and let it be unto you.

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A certain rule, namely,

where the spirit, word,

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sacraments,

and life of Christ are found there.

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The Nicene article is pertinent.

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I believe in one holy Christian church,

the communion of saints, etc.

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but where the spirit, word, sacraments,

and life of Christ are not found, but

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where the spirit doctrines, sacraments,

and life of Antichrist are found there.

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The church of Antichrist is,

and not the Church of Christ.

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Although we might boast a thousand times,

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I believe in one

Holy Christian church, etc.,

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for without

or against the Spirit of Christ, His word,

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sacraments, and life, there can

in all eternity be no Christian church.

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Twist the matter as you please.

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The word stands immutable.

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Whosoever transgresses and abideth not in

the doctrine of Christ hath not God.

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Obviously he was aware of the creed.

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He was affirming the Creed.

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In this instance,

the Nicene Creed, not the Apostle's Creed.

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It's interesting though,

because he's saying.

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Even if you don't, if you have this, this

then the creed is pertinent.

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But if you don't you can say this

a thousand times and it doesn't matter.

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Which is interesting

because isn't that a lot of the things

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the early Anabaptists would have

emphasized is you have to live it.

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You have to walk this thing out.

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Even if you affirm this creed and you're

not living, your life doesn't align.

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And how your your churches

aren't aligning with it doesn't matter.

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You can say it a thousand times.

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It doesn't doesn't apply.

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I don't know if that's part of the story

there.

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That emphasis on how we live.

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Seems pretty significant to me.

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Yeah. That does seem to be a part of it.

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So we go on to my next primary source.

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Yeah. Go ahead. Okay.

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Next primary source is from Anabaptism

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in Outline

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edited by

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Walter Clauson,

currently published by Plow.

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Though many editions in circulation

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are published by another publisher, so.

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On page 25 of Anabaptism in Outline.

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Balthasar Hubmaier, Elaborates

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on the Apostles Creed

and kind of paraphrases it.

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Makes it more personal to his experience.

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I'm not going to read the whole thing,

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but I'll read enough to give you a feel

for how he treats it.

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I believe also in Jesus Christ,

your only son, our Lord.

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I believe that he has made atonement

to you, my father, for the fall,

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that he has made peace

between you and me, who am a poor sinner.

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Skipping out to the next paragraph.

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Also, I believe and confess,

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my Lord Jesus Christ, that you were

conceived through the Holy Spirit

200

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without human need and born of Mary,

pure and eternally chaste Virgin.

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Another paragraph down.

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I believe and confess that you suffered

under the judge, Pontius Pilate,

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that you were crucified, dead, and buried.

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All this you did on account of my sins,

in order that you might save me

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from eternal suffering,

torment, and death.

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So it's not just a direct,

literal quotation recitation of the Creed,

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but he takes each point

and elaborates on it,

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which is fascinating,

that that personalization, turning it

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into a direct prayer.

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Do you know what year he is writing this.

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1526 through 27 is what it says

at the top of the page

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within the first year

or two of the Anabaptist movement starting

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appears to be, yes.

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And the

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third, the third primary source

that I would like to mention

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that unfortunately we don't have here.

217

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Do we have an Ausbund nearby.

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We don't have one nearby.

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So I can't quote it exactly.

220

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But for those who have it available

look at the second psalm,

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the second song in it.

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It is a

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I believe, it’s the Apostle's Creed

set to music is it word for word

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or it has been somewhat modified

for their purposes?

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I believe it's been modified.

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I can't say exactly how,

since I don't have it in front of me.

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How about that?

I that's that's interesting.

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Do you know what year

that would have been done?

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I mean, that's very early Anabaptist.

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I don’t remember. Yeah.

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And maybe somebody listening to this,

would also know

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is that still used like the Ausbund is

still used by all these churches.

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Is that particular song commonly used?

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Yeah.

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Somebody should let us know.

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That would. Yeah.

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That would be really interesting

to know. So,

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so the early Anabaptist

clearly had an awareness of these creeds.

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I mean yeah,

that's pretty straightforward.

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Any thought on why we don't

talk about them that much anymore?

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And when I say that,

I mean, at least from my own experience

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in the American Mennonite scene.

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Any any thought on what's happening there?

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I could only conjecture.

245

00:12:50,394 --> 00:12:53,439

I can't do much more than conjecture

either.

246

00:12:54,482 --> 00:12:57,359

I think it's a little wider

than Mennonites, though.

247

00:12:57,359 --> 00:12:59,653

I think it's been

248

00:12:59,653 --> 00:13:02,656

low church Protestantism as well.

249

00:13:03,407 --> 00:13:06,660

I don't think it's

been uniquely Mennonites

250

00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:10,581

that have paid less attention

to them recently.

251

00:13:11,582 --> 00:13:14,376

In recent years,

the Southern Baptist Convention

252

00:13:14,376 --> 00:13:16,921

was making the creeds

a matter of discussion.

253

00:13:16,921 --> 00:13:17,671

Interesting.

254

00:13:18,631 --> 00:13:19,840

I wonder what triggered that.

255

00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,384

And I say recently

256

00:13:22,384 --> 00:13:25,387

I'm thinking,

you know, the last 50 to 100 years,

257

00:13:26,013 --> 00:13:29,016

I think there's a

maybe an uptick in interest,

258

00:13:30,184 --> 00:13:33,896

low church becoming more interested

in creedal formulations,

259

00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,775

along with other things that low both,

you know, low church

260

00:13:37,775 --> 00:13:40,903

Protestants and low church Anabaptists

becoming more interested in

261

00:13:42,404 --> 00:13:44,615

other things

that come from the early centuries

262

00:13:44,615 --> 00:13:47,618

of Christianity,

like liturgical calendars and

263

00:13:48,327 --> 00:13:51,330

the seasons of the church year,

and things like that.

264

00:13:51,747 --> 00:13:54,542

But yeah,

why don't we use the Apostle's Creed?

265

00:13:54,542 --> 00:13:57,044

I don't know,

266

00:13:57,044 --> 00:14:01,048

In, in some church context

it would be used on a very routine

267

00:14:01,048 --> 00:14:04,802

basis within the service

I assume, and other interactions.

268

00:14:04,802 --> 00:14:06,929

Like I don't have much familiarity

with that.

269

00:14:06,929 --> 00:14:09,932

Do you have input there.

270

00:14:10,474 --> 00:14:14,478

And I believe it would be

routine in a lot of churches

271

00:14:15,521 --> 00:14:18,524

as a structured part of what we do.

272

00:14:18,899 --> 00:14:21,443

On a Sunday morning.

273

00:14:21,443 --> 00:14:24,446

But those are churches

that are very different from,

274

00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:27,324

from the experiences I've had.

275

00:14:27,324 --> 00:14:27,533

Yeah.

276

00:14:27,533 --> 00:14:30,661

Most of my experience with liturgical

churches is from the Episcopal Church.

277

00:14:30,661 --> 00:14:33,914

And I do believe that it's a somewhat

routine part of their liturgy.

278

00:14:35,583 --> 00:14:38,544

Yeah I think,

I think there could be a lot of value in

279

00:14:39,420 --> 00:14:41,338

in raising the awareness level of this

280

00:14:41,338 --> 00:14:44,800

or bringing it into church

setting somehow.

281

00:14:44,884 --> 00:14:46,427

I'm not quite

sure what that would look like.

282

00:14:46,427 --> 00:14:48,512

I feel like I need to get my head

around it a bit more.

283

00:14:48,512 --> 00:14:51,515

But I found it valuable in my own life.

284

00:14:52,308 --> 00:14:55,102

You know, the Apostle's Creed

and the Nicene Creed

285

00:14:55,102 --> 00:14:57,855

and just at least

having a good awareness of it

286

00:14:57,855 --> 00:15:00,774

and the background

of where it comes from it’s

287

00:15:00,774 --> 00:15:03,652

been you know, with the church

for a very long time, you know,

288

00:15:03,652 --> 00:15:06,947

and I think there's there's value

in these declarations of faith.

289

00:15:07,072 --> 00:15:07,364

Yeah.

290

00:15:07,364 --> 00:15:09,491

And I mean you can recite it and you can,

291

00:15:09,491 --> 00:15:12,494

you know, no longer think about what

you're reciting and so on.

292

00:15:13,245 --> 00:15:15,789

But I do have to think about how,

293

00:15:17,249 --> 00:15:17,625

you know,

294

00:15:17,625 --> 00:15:20,628

just regular attention

to the Apostle's Creed,

295

00:15:21,462 --> 00:15:23,047

could help with some things

296

00:15:23,047 --> 00:15:26,050

we've struggled with.

297

00:15:26,884 --> 00:15:29,887

Yes. I think Mennonites have affirmed

the Apostle's Creed.

298

00:15:30,512 --> 00:15:33,515

But there's things we tend to get

299

00:15:34,183 --> 00:15:37,186

fuzzy

on, and church tends to get fuzzy on.

300

00:15:37,394 --> 00:15:39,730

So one of the items of the creed, like,

301

00:15:39,730 --> 00:15:42,483

you know,

I believe in the resurrection of the body.

302

00:15:42,483 --> 00:15:46,028

Okay, that's pretty fundamental

to Christianity. But.

303

00:15:47,321 --> 00:15:51,200

You know, it has not been uncommon

to talk about resurrection or,

304

00:15:51,825 --> 00:15:55,663

you know, the future life in ways

that you almost don't

305

00:15:55,663 --> 00:15:58,999

need to raise the body because, you know,

you go to heaven when you die.

306

00:15:58,999 --> 00:16:01,835

And that's the Christian hope,

307

00:16:01,835 --> 00:16:05,297

you know, would we have struggled less

with that, downplaying the resurrection

308

00:16:05,297 --> 00:16:07,216

if, you know, we were routinely saying,

309

00:16:07,216 --> 00:16:11,220

I believe in the resurrection of the body,

like this is fundamental,

310

00:16:12,179 --> 00:16:16,934

or. the centrality of

311

00:16:16,976 --> 00:16:19,979

the kingdom of God in the gospel.

312

00:16:20,938 --> 00:16:22,815

Well, right there in the Creed, like,

you know,

313

00:16:22,815 --> 00:16:25,818

Jesus ascended and is seated

at the right hand of the father, like

314

00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:29,780

just tremendously important.

315

00:16:29,780 --> 00:16:31,365

And, you know, just

316

00:16:31,365 --> 00:16:35,703

hammering that in a more regular

use of a creed, I think would be helpful

317

00:16:35,703 --> 00:16:38,706

because it is one of those things

that tends to get missed.

318

00:16:39,623 --> 00:16:42,167

Or, tends to be under

319

00:16:42,167 --> 00:16:45,170

emphasized, underappreciated,

I should say.

320

00:16:46,547 --> 00:16:46,922

Yeah.

321

00:16:46,922 --> 00:16:50,634

Jaran is there more you had on the Creed

that you'd like to add.

322

00:16:52,428 --> 00:16:55,431

No, I don't believe so,

323

00:16:55,472 --> 00:16:58,475

Other than just the fact that

324

00:16:58,809 --> 00:17:01,812

it's important for how we see ourselves,

325

00:17:02,896 --> 00:17:05,899

how we see ourselves in relation to

326

00:17:07,026 --> 00:17:08,944

the church

327

00:17:08,944 --> 00:17:11,947

and history and so on.

328

00:17:12,823 --> 00:17:13,866

A couple angles.

329

00:17:13,866 --> 00:17:15,617

One, we can get fixated in our moment.

330

00:17:15,617 --> 00:17:18,537

You know, we read the New Testament,

and then there's us,

331

00:17:20,122 --> 00:17:20,914

and we can miss

332

00:17:20,914 --> 00:17:23,917

some of the connections in between

something like the Apostles Creed.

333

00:17:24,752 --> 00:17:26,628

You know, it's developed

very early in the church.

334

00:17:26,628 --> 00:17:29,465

Nicene Creed, not much later.

335

00:17:29,465 --> 00:17:32,468

And was where a lot of things were,

336

00:17:33,469 --> 00:17:36,472

you know, the Nicene Creed is

what really put a stake in the ground

337

00:17:36,555 --> 00:17:39,641

in terms of a orthodox

understanding of the Trinity.

338

00:17:40,893 --> 00:17:43,645

Didn't solve all the

339

00:17:43,645 --> 00:17:46,648

all the questions or problems, but,

you know,

340

00:17:47,066 --> 00:17:50,069

one God, three persons.

341

00:17:50,069 --> 00:17:52,988

The stake was really put there.

342

00:17:52,988 --> 00:17:57,743

And, you know, it's really important

just to say yes.

343

00:17:57,743 --> 00:18:00,746

Like,

we are in continuity with the church.

344

00:18:01,622 --> 00:18:04,625

And probably especially

345

00:18:05,959 --> 00:18:06,460

okay.

346

00:18:06,460 --> 00:18:09,463

So especially as Anabaptists,

347

00:18:10,172 --> 00:18:12,549

important to put that stake in.

348

00:18:12,549 --> 00:18:15,135

And I'm just thinking back,

349

00:18:15,135 --> 00:18:18,722

the Reformation 500 years ago. So,

350

00:18:20,307 --> 00:18:23,310

you know, for a lot of Protestants,

351

00:18:23,894 --> 00:18:26,897

they were making a significant break,

352

00:18:27,231 --> 00:18:30,776

with the Catholic Church,

while also, of course,

353

00:18:30,776 --> 00:18:34,404

wanting to affirm, no, you know,

we're correcting things that went wrong.

354

00:18:34,404 --> 00:18:37,116

We're not cutting ourselves off

from the church.

355

00:18:37,116 --> 00:18:39,243

We're reforming things.

356

00:18:39,243 --> 00:18:43,455

Anabaptists in many ways took.

357

00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:48,377

Took some changes further,

358

00:18:48,377 --> 00:18:51,421

than the official Protestant Reformation.

359

00:18:52,339 --> 00:18:55,092

You know, including things like

360

00:18:55,092 --> 00:18:56,969

believer's baptism

361

00:18:56,969 --> 00:19:01,223

and really repudiating the

the infant baptism model and so on.

362

00:19:01,223 --> 00:19:04,226

This, you know, this big break.

363

00:19:04,810 --> 00:19:06,645

But it could be

364

00:19:06,645 --> 00:19:09,648

could be very easy

for us to overemphasize the break

365

00:19:10,816 --> 00:19:13,443

and, you know, act

like we're cut off or whatever.

366

00:19:13,443 --> 00:19:16,405

And I think.

367

00:19:17,447 --> 00:19:17,698

You know,

368

00:19:17,698 --> 00:19:20,701

some use of the creeds

and similar things to say,

369

00:19:21,827 --> 00:19:23,704

look, now, this is fundamental.

370

00:19:23,704 --> 00:19:25,497

This is Christian like, we're not

371

00:19:26,832 --> 00:19:27,291

we're not the

372

00:19:27,291 --> 00:19:30,294

29th chapter of acts here. Like

373

00:19:30,377 --> 00:19:31,712

there's a lot more to the story.

374

00:19:31,712 --> 00:19:34,756

And we are

we're not breaking away like, yes,

375

00:19:35,841 --> 00:19:38,594

we think we had some important things

to correct

376

00:19:38,594 --> 00:19:40,137

that had developed over the centuries.

377

00:19:40,137 --> 00:19:45,350

But we confess one holy

Catholic church and continuity over,

378

00:19:45,934 --> 00:19:50,814

over the centuries

and so on Dig into the the one holy

379

00:19:50,814 --> 00:19:53,942

Catholic Church in the Apostle's Creed,

that terminology, it's used.

380

00:19:54,318 --> 00:19:57,321

Because now people are going to be like,

oh, the Roman Catholic Church.

381

00:19:57,654 --> 00:20:00,073

That's not what it's referring to there.

382

00:20:00,073 --> 00:20:01,408

Do you want to unpack that just a bit

383

00:20:01,408 --> 00:20:03,702

to make sure that's not confusing

for people to be like,

384

00:20:03,702 --> 00:20:05,537

wait a minute,

I thought y'all were Anabaptists.

385

00:20:05,537 --> 00:20:08,498

And what's this with the Catholic?

386

00:20:08,498 --> 00:20:11,210

Yeah.

Explain that. So the term Catholic is

387

00:20:12,252 --> 00:20:14,671

much older.

388

00:20:14,671 --> 00:20:17,341

Obviously you got the Apostles Creed,

389

00:20:17,341 --> 00:20:21,261

you know, the whole church,

the universal church.

390

00:20:21,637 --> 00:20:24,932

You know, it did become.

391

00:20:26,934 --> 00:20:28,143

It did become a term

392

00:20:28,143 --> 00:20:33,065

that was used kind of in definition

with, again, some of the struggles

393

00:20:33,065 --> 00:20:37,152

with heresy, things that needed

to be defined, with some schisms.

394

00:20:39,071 --> 00:20:41,490

You know,

I can't say it was used perfectly.

395

00:20:41,490 --> 00:20:43,283

But that sense of,

396

00:20:43,283 --> 00:20:46,286

you know, one church I think goes along

with the communion of the saints,

397

00:20:46,828 --> 00:20:49,831

there is a connection

among Christ's people.

398

00:20:50,415 --> 00:20:54,795

Christ has one body and.

399

00:20:55,837 --> 00:20:56,088

Yeah.

400

00:20:56,088 --> 00:20:59,967

I think that is a profoundly important

term to retain.

401

00:21:01,176 --> 00:21:04,763

And now it's not a monopoly of the Roman

Catholic Church or

402

00:21:05,681 --> 00:21:08,684

or the Pope or whatever.

403

00:21:09,184 --> 00:21:10,978

It's a theological affirmation.

404

00:21:11,979 --> 00:21:12,229

And I

405

00:21:12,229 --> 00:21:15,232

think it's actually it's one

that's good for.

406

00:21:16,316 --> 00:21:17,818

it's I think a really good reminder,

407

00:21:17,818 --> 00:21:21,863

maybe particularly for our Anabaptist

or other

408

00:21:22,572 --> 00:21:25,575

low church tendencies,

409

00:21:25,784 --> 00:21:28,787

we tend to be very congregational

about church,

410

00:21:28,912 --> 00:21:31,415

you know, churches

where believers are gathered together

411

00:21:31,415 --> 00:21:34,418

and you have a church,

a church here, a church there.

412

00:21:35,210 --> 00:21:37,671

And I agree with that.

413

00:21:37,671 --> 00:21:40,966

The vast majority of the time that the

term church is used in the new Testament,

414

00:21:41,508 --> 00:21:45,512

it's like talking about specific churches,

specific gatherings, like, you know,

415

00:21:46,179 --> 00:21:49,433

there's one in the city, one in that city,

there's one in this person's house,

416

00:21:49,641 --> 00:21:53,478

I guess, talking about, you know, concrete

gathering, not some not,

417

00:21:53,812 --> 00:21:56,315

you know, a broad universal thing.

418

00:21:56,315 --> 00:22:00,819

But at the same time, there is the real thread there that it's one church and that,

419

00:22:02,237 --> 00:22:05,240

you know, all these little churches aren't

just like

420

00:22:05,574 --> 00:22:07,701

independent things.

421

00:22:07,701 --> 00:22:10,287

And I'm not talking

about church government structure there.

422

00:22:10,287 --> 00:22:13,290

I'm talking about just,

you know, realizing,

423

00:22:14,416 --> 00:22:16,710

you know, Jesus church is bigger

424

00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:20,505

than it's exemplified in particular bodies

in particular gatherings.

425

00:22:20,505 --> 00:22:23,508

It is bigger, it is global.

426

00:22:24,009 --> 00:22:26,094

It is across time and place.

427

00:22:26,094 --> 00:22:29,097

I think,

428

00:22:29,431 --> 00:22:32,434

and, you know, this is

maybe taking it a little bit further, but

429

00:22:32,726 --> 00:22:36,605

there's the one song we sing

sometimes speaks about the church in earth

430

00:22:36,605 --> 00:22:38,273

and heaven.

431

00:22:38,273 --> 00:22:42,652

And I think, you know, language

of the communion of saints

432

00:22:42,652 --> 00:22:45,947

and the one holy Catholic Church

can help us to appreciate

433

00:22:45,947 --> 00:22:48,950

that as well.

434

00:22:48,992 --> 00:22:50,160

Yeah, that's

435

00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,122

some pretty interesting context

that you all have added here.

436

00:22:54,122 --> 00:22:57,084

And I think it's important pieces

to keep in mind.

437

00:22:57,084 --> 00:23:00,170

I guess I want to also say

to the person who left the comment,

438

00:23:00,212 --> 00:23:02,547

we appreciate that

we we enjoy the engagement

439

00:23:02,547 --> 00:23:05,759

and feedback that we get from people,

and we encourage that in the future.

440

00:23:05,759 --> 00:23:08,637

People have more input or something.

441

00:23:08,637 --> 00:23:12,391

Perhaps on this topic that they want to

add, some, some thoughts to.

442

00:23:12,391 --> 00:23:15,936

And also thanks to Jaran

for compiling these, different sources.

443

00:23:16,395 --> 00:23:17,854

Yes.

444

00:23:17,854 --> 00:23:21,817

As we wrap this episode to a close,

I think one thing we could

445

00:23:21,817 --> 00:23:24,903

agree on is

we would encourage people after this.

446

00:23:24,903 --> 00:23:27,864

Go look up the Nicene Creed,

go read the Apostle's Creed.

447

00:23:27,864 --> 00:23:29,533

And make yourself familiar with it.

448

00:23:29,533 --> 00:23:32,369

I think that'd be a good thing

people could do.

449

00:23:32,369 --> 00:23:32,702

And is.

450

00:23:32,702 --> 00:23:32,911

Yeah.

451

00:23:32,911 --> 00:23:34,454

Is there anything else you'd like to add?

452

00:23:34,454 --> 00:23:37,124

For the listeners as we bring it

to a close that's a great starting point.

453

00:23:37,124 --> 00:23:38,375

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well,

454

00:23:39,835 --> 00:23:41,795

yeah, I think I think we'll end it there

then.

455

00:23:42,754 --> 00:23:44,631

Thanks for listening to this episode.

456

00:23:44,631 --> 00:23:45,841

If you found this interesting,

457

00:23:45,841 --> 00:23:49,177

you might want to check out

this other episode we did with Kyle

458

00:23:49,177 --> 00:23:52,764

Stoltzfus

and Stephen Russell on The great tradition

459

00:23:52,764 --> 00:23:55,767

and how that applies to us

as Christians today.

460

00:23:55,809 --> 00:23:58,687

And you can find that

linked in the description down below.

461

00:23:58,687 --> 00:24:01,356

Thanks again for listening,

and we'll catch you in the next episode.