Hello and welcome to Left of the Projector.

I am your host, Evan, back again with another film discussion from the left.

You can support the show on Patreon at leftoftheprojectorpod and subscribe on

all platforms at leftoftheprojector.

com.

Our film this week is Stanley Kubrick's final film, Eyes

Wide Shut, released in 1999.

My guest this week is Jonathan Kennedy.

Jonathan is an award winning filmmaker, writer, and shitposter

based out of Hamilton, Ontario.

Hope you enjoy!

Sit back in your seats, get something to eat.

Watch this movie.

Don't let the kiddies see it.

Well, we'll let you hear the movie first.

Alright, we'll get into the conversation this week with Jonathan.

Thank you for joining me today.

Thanks for having me.

Yes.

Yes.

So as I mentioned, we're talking about the 1999 Stanley Kubrick film eyes

wide shut and You know, this was of course Stanley Kubrick's final film

It was released after his death and it had a starring cast of Tom Cruise

Nicole Kidman who play a married couple Who were married at the time?

Sidney Pollack Marie Richardson was actually Stanley Kubrick's most

profitable movie in the box office making 162 million On a 65 million budget.

So, you know, it was definitely a big hit.

I think, uh, it's one of those movies within, I don't know, Kubrick

fandom that is often divisive, people love it or people hate it.

It's their favorite movie.

It's their least favorite movie.

And so I know you mentioned beforehand that it's your favorite Kubrick movie.

I'm wondering what's your sort of memory of this movie was and if.

when you first saw it, you liked it, you know, immediately or if it was one of

those ones that sort of like grew on you?

Yeah, I, I was already kind of into kind of weirder art cinema at that point.

Um, I think the first time I saw it was probably when the, uh, the Kubrick

box set, the DVD box set that had, you know, I don't remember what movies, The

Shining and 2001 and like all the the kind of major later Kubrick films and

it had the Life in Pictures documentary.

Um, and I think at that point Eyes Wide Shut was the only one I hadn't seen.

Um, I have very vivid memories of like the commercials, like the ads for it

being on TV all the time in 99 with the, the like real sexy spot with

like the Chris Isaac music playing.

And it was like, you know, it's like Kubrick Kidman cruise, uh, and being

like, Intrigued just as like, you know, this like sexy movie and I was, you

know, adolescent, just like, What what's all this about but like I didn't end

up seeing it until Probably like 2002.

And, uh, yeah, I, I, I liked it right off the bat.

It was, you know, the kind of weird I was, I've always been really into like

the occult and like weird conspiracy theory secret society shit and stuff.

So this is perfect.

It kinda, yeah.

Yeah, it kinda like spoke to me on that level.

I was like, yeah, this is weird as fuck.

I love it.

. Yeah, it's, um, it is, uh, I, I actually watch, sometimes I try and watch the

trailer for these movies because.

A lot of times movies are the way they're marketed is not necessarily

like the movie that you're getting.

I don't even think that the trailer really does it justice.

It's, it's really weird.

Yeah, it was, uh, while I was like researching for, for this, uh,

for this podcast, I was looking at some like some of the more notable

articles about it that have come out.

And I can't remember who or where they said this, but there was like

one critic who was talking about how it was like really marketed as

like an erotic thriller, which it Isn't and it like a lot of like,

it seems like a lot of the backlash was like, oh, it's not sexy really.

And it's like, it's, I think it was Roger Ebert.

I think I saw that too.

It or wasn't that it was not the one I was thinking of,

but he did say things of that.

Yeah, he said some stuff to that effect as well, but it was.

Like, you know, people, people went in expecting to be titillated

and they were freaked out instead.

It's weird because people going in knowing it's a Stanley Kubrick movie

that always has so many layers and nuance and details of things that he's

not, he doesn't leave anything Nothing is an accident, you know, obviously

not just him, but very much like that.

And so it was a weird, uh, came out again too.

And so, I mean, I'll briefly say when I saw it the first

time and then I'm curious too.

I was thinking about this being 1999 and sort of one of those years that

a lot of people call, you know, one of the best years in the cinema.

But I saw this the year after it came out in 2000.

I was a freshman in college and took a film class and we watched a

bunch of movies, including this one.

I think this might've been the first one we watched.

And so it's a bunch of 18 year olds with the professor in

a room watching this movie.

And it was kind of awkward in a way, and some of the people in the class

were sort of taken aback by maybe hadn't seen a movie like this, maybe never

seen a Stanley Kubrick film before.

And I, I would say I liked it, but didn't really understand it.

Which maybe I still don't.

I don't know.

I guess with any of these kind of things, but over the, over the years,

I feel like it was one of those ones.

I had it on DVD, maybe.

Four or five years later, and I've watched it, you know, maybe six,

seven times all the way through over the years and parts here and there.

Um, but yeah, I've always thought it was top Kubrick movie, not my favorite, but

definitely near the top, uh, top few.

But.

I don't know.

I don't know what you think about the 99 thing with, you know, we

don't have to get into an argument over which year is the best year.

I don't think it's 99, but some people do, but I don't know what

you make of it being part of this.

Um, you know, a big year in Phil, let's say 99 definitely had,

you know, a handful of bangers.

You know, being john Malkovich is probably one of my favorite

movies and came out in 99.

Um, Uh, you know, the, the thing that I find most interesting, interesting

about 99 in film and like, kind of in like pop culture in general, really, or

just culture in general, I guess, you know, we're like almost a decade out from

like the overthrow of the Soviet Union and it's like, there's so much like so

many of the top movies of 1999 are about dudes who are like, Dissatisfied in

their like middle class like ostensibly comfortable lives and it's uh, you

know, like I even saw a meme about this like this week where it's like, oh, you

know, you have this high paying job with benefits and you're fucking miserable.

And it's like, you know, this is.

We still exist under capitalism, like, you know, we're all alienated

from like every aspect of our lives.

Basically, like, of course, you know, working a shitty office job that means

nothing to you is going to bum you out.

Um, you know, but it's like, you know, cold war is over.

So we can't really.

You know, capitalism one, so we can't critique capitalism as the reason

that, you know, everyone's miserable.

So everyone's, you know, kind of struggling to, you know,

pinpoint exactly what it is about this kind of like way of life.

That's Making, you know, people miserable and, you know, whether it's,

you know, fight club, masculinity, office space, uh, yeah, office space.

Like, you know, there's so, so many, like, people just like kind of struggling to,

like, come to terms with the fact that.

You know, capitalism one, but no one's happy about it.

So that, that to me is like the really interesting thing about like 1999 and

how it kind of reflects kind of the Western malaise of, uh, of it all.

Yeah.

One of the, as you were saying, I just wrote down to my, as like a note, it's

sort of like this, um, I think this, this is probably like the, one of the

big speeches in is when he's, when, um, Brad Pitt's character, Um, is kind of in

the basement and they're, maybe they're starting to get the fight club going and

he talks about, you know, basically kind of an anti capitalist anarchist kind of

speech of, you know, You know, we don't need to buy bullshit stuff and all this

and it's kind of like these movies and the way you're describing them It's

sort of like this disillusionment of like the Gen X, you know They've come

out of of the 80s and 90s and still have all of these presumably like good

things They probably all have homes.

So they were able to buy they're all like pretty good jobs and may not

like them But they're doing okay.

And yet, you know, all they're gonna do is complain about it.

I don't want to say that, you know, again, if I worked a job like office

space, I probably would hate it too.

But at the same time, you know, it could be worse.

I don't know.

I mean, that's not to say that there isn't.

I mean, I think that those movies like Fight Club and those do have

that critique that's interesting.

With Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman as kind of the, you know, pretty much

The only the main pieces of this film.

Obviously, there's some other characters that I think are important as the

film goes on, you know, in kind of playing on that 1999 theme, which

I think kind of runs through and you're kind of, uh, I don't know.

I don't call it a thesis, but you're kind of take that, you know, this kind

of disillusionment and these kind of male characters How would you say that that

plays a role in this one because we talked about those other movies you mentioned,

uh, Fight Club and Office Space, but how do you think that theme kind of persists

in Tom Cruise's character in this movie?

Yeah, I guess like with, with Tom Cruise's character, it's, he's, you know, he's,

he's this, you know, successful doctor.

He, you know, works for all of these, like, You know wealthy clients it seems,

uh, you know, he's doing house calls um, you know helping out Ziegler when the sex

worker od's in his bathroom And you know, he he he's got this kind of like lavish

seeming life, but he's like I think like the theme that like runs through it Is

that he just constantly feels inadequate and like, not able to kind of do what he

thinks he, as a man, is supposed to do.

throughout, um, like all of the, all of the strange encounters he has,

like, uh, I don't know if you've read the novel that it's based on.

It's a little, uh, it's a little more, a little more explicit in

the novel, but he's like very uncomfortable in his masculinity.

He's always, uh, you know, the scene where he gets like, Harassed

by the frat boys, uh, in the novel.

He's like seething and like trying to convince himself that he should, you

know, just chase them down and fight them.

And, uh, it's like the, the, it's very much, you know, he's struggling

with like his ideas of masculinity and how he's supposed to be as a man.

And it's, it's less explicit in the movie, I think, but it's still definitely.

Uh, there in subtext, if not text, um, you know, anytime he encounters, you know,

when he has his encounter with Domino, the sex worker, he is, You know, he,

he wants to go through with it, but you know, there's something preventing him.

He, you know, he, uh, he gets really jealous when, or not even he gets, he

doesn't get jealous when, uh, Alice tells him about her fantasy about the,

like, the naval officer or whatever, um, but he has this kind of sense

of You know, he has to be secure in everything and, you know, anything that

kind of seeps in to undermine that as an affront to kind of his masculinity.

Um, And that's just kind of, you know, kind of recurs throughout he,

you know, when he encounters when he goes to visit the, the daughter

of his patient who passed away.

Yeah, he, he, uh, you know, he is.

Throw into kind of the inverse of the situation that Alice

had just described to him.

And so he is constantly in these scenarios where he is, you know, he

wants to do what he thinks is like the masculine thing to do, but is never

quite able to to go through with it.

Yeah, that's um, I, as you mentioned the, the book being more explicit,

I think a lot of the moments in this are more, you know, implicit or just

you're, you're kind of, if you look slightly deeper, you mentioned the

sex worker scene and then, you know, there's a number of different scenes too.

Actually, maybe it's a good moment to actually mention.

So one of the, yeah.

The very opening scene is they're at their house, they're very nice,

multiple, you know, gotta be multi 5, 10 million, I don't know, you know,

brownstone and, uh, or is it apartment?

I don't remember whatever it is.

It's huge.

It's a huge ass apartment in New York City.

And you think, okay, these people are rich.

He's a doctor.

And then they go to this gigantic party, which you alluded to.

There's a, you know, an O.

D.

there, um, of someone who was, you know, was engaged with the, the host

of the party, which is played by Sidney Pollack, who is awesome in this movie.

I just want to throw that out there.

And so, but when you go to his house, it is a fucking mansion.

It is, You know, the like, it's a, you know, capitalist wealth, you know,

we don't ever really know what he does, but he's top of the food chain

and it almost makes Tom Cruise even character feel inadequate to him, right?

Like he's almost poor compared to, you know, the, I mean, maybe not poor

is the right word, but he's, yeah.

On a much lower level than his character, uh, the Sidney Pollack character.

So, you know, immediately he's kind of emasculated by just being at this

party, not knowing anyone, because he doesn't really fit in with this group.

And then the part that I was going to mention is he comes

across these two women, I think models, who he somehow knew.

And he's hit, they're hitting on him and they're, you know, clearly they want to

go take him off to some room somewhere, but he's not able to complete that.

He's not able to go have sex with them, as seemingly he wants to,

while his wife dances with some other rich dude, you know, who

also wants to sleep with his wife.

And so there's immediately these, uh, this dichotomy of like the wealth

disparity and then the inadequacy of him, Tom Cruise, unable to Go through

what's what make him like manly as you're saying, like the being able to go, you

know, have sex with a couple models at a party like you're supposed to.

Yeah.

And I think one of the really, uh, kind of interesting aspects of the way

kind of the disparity and, you know, wealth is shown throughout the film

is like, you know, we, we go through all of these different, you know, very

luxurious houses and, you know, then we.

Yeah, we have

domino, the sex worker, her tiny little apartment and, you know, we

have the mansion later that the, you know, secret society is doing their

ritual orgy thing in and it kind of like, it kind of shows the workings of.

How class isn't just about money because like three layers of that are all wealthy

people, but it's their, uh, you know, they have very different acts, um, access to

power and like the, the levels of control over aspects of their surroundings.

That, you know, uh, a really common misconception that I see whenever,

uh, whenever people talk about class.

You know, in political discussions or whatever, is they equate money with

class specifically and you know, they'll

kind of reduce the concept of like material analysis and class

analysis to who has money and who doesn't, when it's, you know, a lot

less about that than it is, you know, when Sidney Pollack is talking about, you know,

how if Bill didn't know if bill knew who were under those masks at the orgy, he

wouldn't sleep so well at night because they're the powerful people that are like

the people who are really running things.

And like bill, you know, he, like his night out, he, you know, he goes to

buy his or to rent his costume and he pays like 200 bucks over the price.

And then he pays a couple hundred bucks for the cap.

And I saw in one of the articles I was looking at, he spends

about 700 bucks that night.

And, like, I can do that.

I can, like, you know, I wouldn't be, you know, I would be broke for the rest

of the fucking month if I did that, but I could do that, you know, um,

whereas he, like, you know, he thinks that that being able to throw around,

you know, that bit of money to, to, you know, finagle his way into you.

This super secret, uh, you know, group gives him kind of, uh, a certain level

of power that he doesn't actually have.

And, you know, people, when people think of, like, the middle class, they kind of

misunderstand it as, You know, being a little more adjacent to the ruling class

than it is to the working class, but like one of the very first, uh, things I

learned in one of the very first sociology classes I took, uh, during my undergrad.

was we were doing a unit on Marxism and the professor was talking about the

concept of proletarianization, which is, you know, super, super basic concept.

It's like people in the middle class and even like, you know, some people

in the ruling class aren't going, you know, they're more likely to end

up with, you know, being downwardly mobile than they are upwardly.

Of course.

Yeah.

You know, more middle class people.

Are more likely to end up with, you know, lower wages and less power

in their workplace and what have you, then they are being the boss.

And so like.

I feel like the, the class dynamics of the movie kind of are a really interesting

way of kind of highlighting that, um, you know, he, you know, when, when bill

goes to, I'm sorry, I'm like, I know the names here, but, uh, but like, you know,

when he goes the next day back to the mansion, he gets the, the letter saying

like, you know, stop your pursuit, which is, you know, pointless or whatever.

Uh, you know, they, you know, the people who are giving him that

letter have the very real power to, you know, destroy his life.

And he does not have the power to, you know, even if he knew who they

were and tried to expose them, like nothing would ever come of that, you

know, yeah, it's, it's the, yeah, I think it's a, it's a really good point

to point out the, because you see, again, Tom Cruise is Bill's father.

You know, house, he, he believes himself, he, he thinks that he can use

throw around a little bit of money and it's going to get him, you know, get

him some somewhere when he'll never be, you know, it's more likely that

he could lose his job as a doctor.

I don't know, have a stock market.

I'm sure he has lots of stocks or whatever and have some crisis

and he could lose everything.

Whereas Cindy Pollack isn't going to lose everything.

Like the only the worst that could happen to him is maybe he gets, you know,

indicted or, you know, uh, and then he's powerful enough that he won't go to jail.

You know, And it's, it's not even, it's when Tom Cruise goes to, um, Domino's

apartment, I think he refers to it as cozy, like he had never been somewhere.

So he would consider like, it reminds me of that, uh, that Hillary Clinton,

where she's, where she's just standing in this like tiny New York apartment.

It was like, yeah, The plant in the sink and stuff.

And she's just like in awe at what she's seeing.

That's, I mean, I think that's exactly what he, he's never probably known.

You never really get a background of where he came from, but

he went to medical school.

Obviously he had probably parents who could afford it.

Exactly.

And then the other, this is just a completely random note about

it, but you know, you say he spent 700 and that's, you know, a lot.

When he go when Tom Cruise goes to city politics, uh, house at the end towards

the end of the movie and they're like confrontation and, you know, kind of the

resolution, I guess he they've they have a glass of scotch and then he's like,

Oh, do you want me to send you a case?

That's probably like 50, 000 worth of scotch.

And he's just like, I'll just send you a case.

And so like, that's the kind of that's the disparity you see.

I mean, yes, it's technically the money he has to buy that, but He has the power.

You probably just make a call and someone will just give him

this case of scotch, right?

It's it's yeah, he wouldn't right.

It doesn't money doesn't mean anything to him at this point.

It's just a like the room he when in that original party in the the.

The woman ends up ODing in that room like this is like a bathroom and had

a fireplace and a desk and an office like that was like bigger than it.

It took me a few watches to realize that.

I know, right?

You don't think it's a bathroom and then you see the shower kind of

like from a like a when he walks in.

You can see the shower.

I think on the right left hand side and like that's a bathroom

and it's like nicer than Domino's apartment bigger than her apartment.

Yeah, like that bathroom's probably bigger than my apartment.

It was huge.

I mean, they have multiple people in that room And yeah, I mean that's you could go

on about like all the like the design and all that But I think to the whole point

of you know This is that Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman fancy themselves as kind

of this Wealthy big to do thing because he like the big thing is they may he's

a doctor, but he makes house calls He goes to rich people's houses and gives

them You know, personalized service.

And so that's kind of his in to how he even knows Sydney Pollack is that

he does this kind of additional bit to his, you know, regular doctoring

or that's not a real word, but his regular practice that he has.

And so he, he, he fancies himself as wanting to do.

Get a glimpse of the real power, the real wealth.

And so he's doing everything he can along the way to do what he can,

you know, get his friend to give him information to get to that, you

know, the orgy and the the scene.

So all those things like slowly lead there.

But I think along the way, as you've, both of us have mentioned,

he's unable to, he can't.

You can't get yourself there.

No one can go from, I guess you could say he's like bourgeoisie to capitalist level.

If you're just using, I mean, I don't know if you You probably could have a

more detailed analysis on kind of where they kind of fit, but Sydney Pollack

is lives in a mansion in Manhattan and he lives in a nice apartment.

They're not even they're not on the same level.

Never will be.

So I'm feeling I'm just kind of rambling on about that, but I think it's very

much, you know, kind of sets the.

The mood of all the different scenes as we go through.

And I think the very next scene after the little initial party is when Nicole

Kidman and Tom Cruise are back at home.

And I think they're smoking, they smoke some weed, which I

have to say that they're smoking some pretty shitty ass weed.

It looks like for like some, he's a doctor.

You think he could get some like medicinal marijuana or something?

I don't know.

That's I don't know, but yeah, so they get high and then Nicole

Kim is kind of berating him.

Telling him what you mentioned before, this dream that she had of, um, or

wanting to, this fantasy of having sex with this, uh, what did you say

he was a, not a marine, um, air,

or was it a marine?

was a marine or like some, some sort of like, naval, yeah, that's

right, naval officer or something.

They also, by the way, they mentioned that they're at some like country club

or in some fancy place, so a resort.

So clearly they have, you know, they're talking about this and she has this

fantasy, And this is, I feel like, the moment that the entire You can say

like sets off the rest of the events of the movie and Tom Cruise is sort of

attitude and his need to do all of these things because that emasculated him to

he's constantly throughout the movie.

He has this, you know, they show the sort of like the imagery of Nicole

Kidman with this naval officer, and he just can't get it out of his mind.

Everything he does from that point for the rest of the movie

is simply because of this scene.

And then.

It makes me think that the movie is also about marriage and fidelity,

but I think underlying that it's like the mask emasculation that he feels.

Yeah, and I think, like, ultimately, like, it kind of stems from

almost like their inability, like.

In like a heteronormative monogamous like way to like

to really like communicate like how they feel about other people and themselves and

like, because like neither of them is able to really come to terms with the fact that

they can find other people attractive.

Or like fantasize about other people or whatever without it being a threat

to their own relationship and like it sort of like when they're confronted

with that while being apparently stoned.

I'm not sure Kubrick or Tom had ever smoked weed in their lives based on I'm

assuming Nicole had, but she was just following Kubrick's direction, but.

I've never seen anyone high act that way because yeah, it was a

little bit a little over the top.

That's you know, that's that's uh, you know, I digress.

Um, but you know, the.

The like that, like that inability to come to terms with that is kind of like

a bubbling underneath and like, you know, Bill comes across as this like really

like smug detached asshole a lot of the movie, especially in the beginning,

which like would drive anyone nuts and.

I feel like Alice is maybe like struggling with like the guilt of her fantasy about

running away and Bill is, you know, acting like he doesn't have those fantasies

and she like sees clean through that.

Like, of course you fucking do.

Don't be like, don't he just, he just, he just with those two moms at the party.

Exactly.

And you know, she's like, Like there's like this kind of

underlying anxiety that like,

you know, there's there are these like external threats to their relationship

and, uh, you know, bill is just so dismissive that she's like, like, how,

how could that not set her off really?

And then, you know, rather than They kind of like devolve into like some kind of

like proto Jordan Peterson evo site about like, you know, she's just like clearly

just like calling him on his bullshit.

Like, he's like, this is how you think, right?

Like, this is, you know, women just want security and men just want to

fuck and like, it's, it's like, it's such a funny scene, but I think it

has like a lot to say about that.

It's like, That dynamic if that like, I don't know how rambly that

was, but yeah, no, I, I know that the scene is, I like was reading.

There's some articles even just kind of about talking about that scene.

And I think it's like I said, I think it is like a pivotal moment.

But the other thing that kind of underlies it that I wrote in my, my notes was

for them to have this conversation, you know, you never find out how they

met, whether it was some kind of, you know, You know, they, maybe they met

in a, you know, probably met some rich country club or I don't know, something.

It just doesn't seem like they have, well, definitely don't have a good

relationship, but they don't, they have like a pretty, you would probably say

they have a pretty shaky marriage and in some ways kind of superficial in

the sense that, you know, they're not able to even have, this is like the

first time they've had this discussion.

I think they say they've been married for 10 years or more.

I don't know.

At some point they mentioned that, but I think.

They clearly have problems.

And, you know, you hate to say it, like, be that be that stupid thing,

but like, you know, maybe you should go to therapy, Tom Cruise and, you

know, and, uh, work out some of these, uh, clearly issues you have.

And he's takes it all out on Nicole Kidman.

And she, maybe her way of describing this wasn't the best, maybe getting high

and having this argument wasn't the best idea, but I think she's, Generally right

about, you know, him being this, uh, you know, the way he is, I think, um, but

yeah, so I think that the next thing that I think that happens in, I know where I

sort of sometimes say I'm not going to go through a scene by scene, but I think

I think in some ways like it's very, I don't know, like the way that like the

scenes are blocked off and almost, it's like this little web of things going

through, but he gets a phone call on.

He's taken away to some patient who's died.

And actually, this is another moment that I'm curious what

you think, um, about this.

And I have like another theory I came up with today.

So he goes to see this other woman who's also very wealthy and one of

these, you know, at home patients.

And it's a daughter who's, seems to be around his age ish, maybe a little

older, I don't, maybe, maybe older.

And his, her father had died.

He's literally lying there dead on the, on the bed, which is also kind of creepy.

Um, and she comes on to him like kisses him and saying that she loves him

and throughout the movie, many women seem to be attracted to Tom cruise.

They seem to love him.

They all want him now.

I'm wondering if that was intentional or if it's Actually, what Tom Cruise

thinks that people feel about him, like, you know, there is kind of this playing.

You don't ever really get a sense that things aren't real.

But I almost wonder, you know, especially with the movie title Eyes Wide Shut

and dreams and all of the things that are fantasies going through this, like,

do you think that's his fantasy that every woman wants to sleep with him?

Or you think that's actually the reality, or I guess it doesn't really matter.

But I'm curious.

What do you think?

About that, um, I kind of, I mean, even like the book is, you know, the title

of the book is dream story, so like, I kind of view it as so like one of the,

like, if you look up like interpretations of the movie, one of the ones to like

invariably come across as though like, you know, it's all a dream or whatever.

And like, and, you know, implying that like it, it all happens

like completely in Bill's head or whatever, but like, I think I'm more.

Interesting way to look at the kind of dream aspect of it is through Uh,

through more of a, like a surrealist lens, um, like in, uh, in communicating

vessels, Andre Breton kind of talks about, he kind of like sets out the

notion that surrealist kind of view the conscious and the unconscious, not

as like separate realms, but like as a dialectic between one another that

like influence one another, like, you know, your unconscious influences your

consciousness, which, you know, in turn.

Um, Influences your unconscious or whatever.

So I kind of like this, the scene with, uh, Marion, the, the daughter

of the dead patient, uh, like the, I, I kind of see that scene as.

Sort of a an inversion of like bill analysis relationship, you know, he it

happens right after alice tells him about the dream of like seeing this guy and

wanting to run away with him and start a whole new life and what, you know, he

immediately goes off to this, see this patient's daughter after the patient dies

and she he kind of is taking the place of.

The naval officer in, you know, in the dynamic of the relationship and like the

Marion and Carl kind of even look like an off brand version of Tom Cruise and Nicole

Kidman, you know, it's like completely.

It's like a doppelganger.

Yeah, exactly.

So it's like it like plays out in this kind of like dream logic of his

like What his unconscious, uh, kind of conception of what just happened and

like his relationship with Alice is it and like, it's almost like a projection

of his anxieties, um, which like, isn't to say it, you know, like, like I said,

you know, it's, it's not that these are things that are all happening in his

head, but they're almost like, like, I mean, and this is like, you know,

Complete like theory crafting, like not there in the text at all, but it's

almost like, uh, he's like manifesting these as like tulpas, like they're,

they're very real and material, but they're like almost like a thought form

that's like coming from his unconscious.

Yeah, I, that, that's actually, I like that, that reading of it and it does,

um, and actually this, you mentioned the surrealist thing and I didn't,

I, I'll, I'll say there's a really good article, I'll link it in the.

The notes, that's like a, I don't know, it's probably a good 30 page analysis

of the movie, but in, in it, they talk about surrealism and surrealist art.

And there's, I'm not going to go into all the detail, but apparently at a

moment later in the movie, when he leaves the morgue, when he finds out

that the woman from the party had, uh, had died of an overdose, He walks down

a hallway that apparently has a bunch of like surrealist abstract paintings.

Oh, interesting.

I a really weird, I did, I did, I did not know like dozens of

times I've seen this movie.

Well, there's, there's like art plays a really big role in the movie, which

you probably could have a podcast just episode on just the different pieces

of art, but I didn't notice this.

And so it's very strange and very intentional to have those kinds of

paintings in a place that you wouldn't expect there to be like at a You

know, at a morgue at a hospital, why do they have these paintings there?

Who the fuck knows?

But I think it's intentional and that kind of playing with the reality and

this surrealist, um, kind of, you know, things are maybe not what they

seem and he's kind of projecting and all, all these different things.

I think they all come together and makes, it doesn't seem like when you're

watching it, that things are confusing.

It feels very straightforward.

But as you like kind of dig into it, it does kind of seem kind

of complex and, uh, you know.

doesn't really make sense.

There's like, there's like an uncanniness to how everything plays out, especially

you mentioned the, the, this, the other couple looking like them in that article.

There's also a bunch of discussions of different

doppelgangers throughout the movie.

And I think that that makes it, you know, again, playing with your mind

of, you know, which one did I see?

Was that actually Tom Cruise or, you know, did it's kind of

this, it's very, um, very weird.

And I think That after he leaves there, he is, this is when he's sort of like

wandering the city and going on his.

You know, various, uh, escapades.

You mentioned the scene where the, like, the frat boys, you know,

taunt him for being, you know, for being gay and start shouting at him.

And he just kind of moves on in the movie.

And then I think right after that is when the, uh, sex worker, um, Domino

approaches him and they go to his, to her apartment and he's unable to perform.

I mean, You could say he doesn't officially try, but I think this is

like another one of those moments where he can't physically perform and is

emasculated because his wife calls him.

Yeah.

And I think, uh, that kind of even ties into my sort of surrealist interpretation

because like in most of these situations where he's, you know, about to, You know,

engage in like some sort of, uh, you know, he, you know, he's about to have sex with

domino or, you know, he is, you know, being, uh, you know, Embraced by Marion

or whatever, you know, he, the thing that stops him is always external, but it's

almost as if it comes from, you know, he, he doesn't want to go through with it.

So he again manifests sort of like this, this way out for himself.

Um, And again, you know, not that's not, you know, they're in the

text and like I often make fun of people who kind of make leaps that

aren't, you know, text or subtext.

But like, you know, it just kind of like seems like there are always these like

kind of external forces that reinforce is, you know, not wanting to go through with.

You know the thing that he thinks he's supposed to go through with this is

a safe space for uh, you know leaps of Of you know theories and whatnot.

I mean i've I i've been watching a lot of like theory crafting videos for the

remedy video game universe recently like alvin wake 2 and control and the the

like kind of like the leaps that some of these like cube People make infuriate

me, so I'm like, so like I try not to be like, you know, like, like they they'll

make leaps that are like, okay, you're clearly missing some like very obvious

text here, so like, I, I try to make it when I'm like thinking about like what's

going on in a movie, I tried to like, I try to at least make it plausible

that my kind of like headcanon make.

For lack of a better term, I fucking hate that term.

But you know that that kind of goes along with what's actually happening on screen.

Uh, I understand.

But yeah, yeah, I mean, it's um, I think with them, you know, maybe

this is, you know, movies like this.

I mean, you can and sometimes in some cases I would say like, you know,

it's your theory on why a character is doing something as opposed to

You know, I like these, uh, we were, I'm trying to, I lost my track.

Oh, I know.

You're saying, you know, he was, it was almost like him, his

mind telling him not to do this.

And actually the note that I wrote when he was there was, Is this something

like it seemed very obvious that he had never, you know, done this before

and never, you know, gone to a sex worker or had this kind of engagement.

But at the same time, I wondered if this is something he actually, you know, had

fantasized about doing or if it's simply like this fantasy just sort of, you

know, It literally just like comes along.

She just starts hitting on him on the street and it's just kind of all

these things often happen as you say from external things that really are

beyond his control and you know, but but they always kind of like line

up with what's exactly almost to the point where it's like it seems.

You know, uh, I don't want to say like coincidental, but in some ways

or not coincidental is the wrong word.

Um,

yeah, it just like too perfect.

And yes, yeah, that's a better term.

And then I guess especially to when he meets his old friend from medical

school at the very opening party.

You're like, Oh, like what, you know, who, who cares?

He met this guy, but then he of course drops in the line that he is playing

like a residency at a jazz bar.

And it just so happens that where he is downtown, after you've been walking

around, he's now by this jazz bar and he peeks in and he, you know, kind of

has this very weird, superficial kind of conversation with him, which leads him

down, you know, the next like rabbit hole of learning about the exclusive party.

And I think he doesn't know how.

Big it's going to be until he gets there.

He knows it's a costume kind of party or whatever, but he just wants to do

something exclusive and sort of risque and something yet again, that kind of

ups the ante, everything kind of is, you know, upping one, upping itself from each

situation he kind of finds himself in.

I think anyway, I don't know.

I would definitely, yeah, it definitely seems like he's, you know, definitely

like kind of like, Come in his own head, like working himself up, you know, he's

just like getting more and more like.

Just just like, you know, like this is I got to do something here.

I got a you know, I got I got to prove to myself that I'm You can't go home until

like he's pre like he's a man or something like we're we're exactly Finding, you

know new avenues and I'd so I don't know.

I don't know.

Did you say what's your favorite scene?

No, I didn't So I'm gonna tell us so we're at they were actually at my

favorite scene in the movie You When he now has to go to this party and

he convinces his friend to give him the address to where this party is.

Which you know his friend shouldn't have taken the call in front of him to begin

with but I think he also wanted to seem Kind of cool impressing this doctor guy,

but he goes to a costume shop, which apparently it wasn't open But he goes

to this costume shop, which I think also is titled like somewhere at the end of

the rainbow And so, you know kind of also this kind of you know, the entire

movie Wizard of Oz is a dream So again playing with this dream thing, right?

And he goes and he wakes up the, uh, the guy because he knows

someone who used to own the shop, I think, or something to that effect.

I don't remember the exact.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He, uh, he, the, the former owner was one of his patients.

That whole scene, like the play, this is again, where he's using his influence,

where he thinks I'm a big shot.

I can drop some more money.

You mentioned earlier, he pays extra for the cost, but only 200 bucks.

Like, If I was a costume owner, I'd be like, how about 500?

How about a thousand?

Like he's, he just has a, you know, a pocket full of money and you

could have asked whatever you want.

But just the whole way that scene plays out is just, I don't know.

And then they go into the back room, this enormous costume store with

like this weird room with, you know, mannequins kind of all draped around.

And then he finds his daughter in a room with two random other people.

And it's just, yeah.

I don't know that that scene to me just it does.

It's it.

It almost seems like impossible to have come up with that with that scene.

I don't know, deep in the minds of Stanley Kubrick.

Yeah, the, uh, the thing I found I've always found interesting about

that scene, which I never really thought to look into before today.

Actually, uh, when legally CBS keys character is like, Okay.

Standing behind him and she whispers into his ear.

Like it never occurred to me to try and find out what she whispers to him.

Um, but I was watching it today and I had the head subtitles on

because my neighborhood can be a little noisy during the day.

And she, what she whispers is that he should have his cloak lined

with ermine, which is, so I like decided to look up what ermine is.

It's a, like a, a fair type animal and in, uh, Komi folklore, which is

like a, they're the, an indigenous people from, uh, northeast Russia.

Um, which, you know, the, the, uh, the store owner is Russian.

So.

Presumably, the, uh, you know, the kind of like undertone of that is

that, uh, Erminer is symbolic of, uh, beautiful and coveted young women.

So like that kind of, you know, kind of underlines, uh, Yeah.

The entire pursuit of, you know, kind of Bill's night.

Yeah.

Um, that's interesting.

So I, I, I, I found that really interesting.

I, like, I had never thought to, to like, look that up or like, I was always kind

of like fascinated by like, Oh, it's so mysterious that she whispers in his ear.

It's like, I never knew that either.

I could find out.

Yeah.

So that was, uh, Yeah, I found that funny.

I think I watched it the last time the other day with subtitles, but

maybe I just wasn't paying attention.

Like, I sort of have them on just in kind of in case you want to,

you know, same thing with me, like my neighbor can be loud.

So or at night, I don't want to turn up too loud.

But yeah, that's That's a really good interesting thing.

So again, like Kubrick does not leave anything He knew what he

knew what that word meant and he knew how to place it in there.

Yeah Yeah, yeah, and then and then the thing that's even creepier is that when

he brings the costume back So, well, I'm gonna go back one step when he when when

he goes to the costume store He's mad that his daughter and is with these men

and you're thinking like maybe they're taking advantage of him of her in some way

You don't really kind of understand But then the scene later when he returns the

costume, it's very clear that he's using his daughter as, I guess, a sex worker

of some kind, or it's not entirely clear because he's very implicitly saying to Tom

Cruise, like, Oh, you want my daughter?

You know, that's something you can have too.

Yeah, you have to come back for anything you want.

It's like he, yeah, it's, it's gross.

I mean, it's, uh, to say the least, but it's, it's, it's all, it's all these

things in this movie that I, that I think are constantly, you might say are

like taboo or sort of like within the margins as some people, you know, might

think of them as, you know, obviously these things aren't necessarily in

the, you know, are so taboo, but, yeah.

Maybe, um, to someone like Tom Cruise, who also, do you think he seems like

repressed too, especially in the scene with the, with, uh, Davidov.

It seems like that's kind of what prevents him too, is like he's, maybe he's also

thinking about what those men said on the street where he's now questioning

his own masculinity, which, which is, um.

But yeah, like even like in that interaction with Domino, like there's no

like, there's no like lust in anything like there's no libido in what he's doing.

He's like, I suppose we should talk about this transaction.

It's not even like a real.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, acting.

Yeah.

And like, even like that.

That interaction is like interesting too because there's like it doesn't seem like

domino like it doesn't seem like sex work is like dominoes main kind of like the

way she interacts with build to it like it doesn't seem like it's her main kind

of when she when he tries to pay her.

When he has to leave and she's like, no, don't worry about it.

Don't worry about it.

Like if that was her main source of income, like I feel like she wouldn't

be like, and there's like one of the really interesting things that people

often point out about that scene is when tom is bill is on the phone

to alice there right next to him.

There's a textbook on her shelf that says introducing sociology.

Yeah.

And so it's like, you know, she is probably a student using sex work to

like pay the bills while she's, you know, going to university or whatever.

And so like the, like the just like kind of transactional nature, uh, that like

he approaches it with like, it's almost like she doesn't know what to make of it.

You know, she's like, you know, she's probably used to dealing with

guys who are a lot, you know, he's the nicest person because she like

literally tells her roommate when he comes back later to bring her, uh.

A gift or the cookies or something and she was like talking about how like kind

he was, you know, like that's probably, you know, given that she's doing this,

like you're saying, like on the side to pay for school, presumably or potentially,

you know, she's probably not coming across the nicest people walking around.

I don't think they say exactly, but I assume it's probably like

Greenwich Village, West Village.

If it's yeah.

I think it is supposed to be Greenwich Village, uh, because just

because I read that, like, they had a replica of Greenwich Village

built in, like, a London soundstage.

I think I saw that too.

And it also makes sense.

That's where, like, a lot of the jazz clubs and things would be anyway.

But yeah, so like, that's, um, it's funny.

I feel like we've gone a long way and obviously we're kind of going

through a lot of stuff that happens.

This movie is, it's also very long.

You know, as well, but we haven't talked about probably like the, the scene that

if you have only seen this movie one, so you like, don't care for it, you probably

would immediately be drawn to this massive opulent mansion that I think they allude

to is probably like on Long Island, I think they say, or maybe they don't say,

but given like where he drives on the highway in the cab to goes to this massive

party, he's got his fancy ass tuxedo, he's got the cape, he's got his mask.

And he goes in and you now see, you know, what the creme de la creme people at the

top, you know, politicians, presumably, you know, probably, uh, business leaders,

capitalist type people, people who, uh, run the city and run the, run the country

are engaged in this just very odd ritual.

And I guess there's like parts of two parts of this whole thing,

like, number one is like, what do you make of like the ritualistic.

Nature of it.

And then on the other side of it also is I think the like the idea of like

the masks is obviously meant to hide their identity, but I think it also

adds another piece to like the dream surrealist kind of You know, uh, idea.

So I guess there's like, there's tons of stuff that you could probably talk about

in the scene, but I'm not wondering what you maybe just make of it in general.

Yeah.

I think what it reminds me of more than anything is, I don't know how

familiar you are with Bohemian Grove.

Um, it's so in like 2000.

Alex Jones of all people, uh, decided he was going to, you know, infiltrate

this, uh, like secret society that like hosted the, you know, much like, uh,

much like this party, you know, the creme de la creme, you know, uh, you know,

George Bush and Henry Kissinger and like all these like top leaders, uh, they,

you know, Meet, I think it's, I want to say in California, maybe, um, I can't

remember exactly where it is off the top of my head, but, uh, they, it's been

going on since like the 1800s and they do to like kick out, they do it every,

every summer, uh, in July, I believe.

And to kick off the, um, to kick off the week, they do this thing called the

cremation of care, which is like this really elaborate, basically a play.

Um, there is one year where apparently George Bush senior and Clint Eastwood

played frogs in, in this thing, but like, they're, they're all like, you know,

All cloaked and like they have this like giant stone owl that they burn an effigy

of what's supposed to represent like the, uh, kind of like the, the burdens

of the world because, you know, they're all these, you know, big leaders who

are, you know, the ones carrying those burdens, uh, you know, in their minds, at

least, um, and so, like, Alex jones had had this idea to like sneak in and film

it and stuff it was really funny because there was this like british documentary

and that was with them who like follow them on like kind of documented.

They're planning and stuff and based on everyone they spoke to, like

in the town near where it happens, you can just like walk on in.

Basically, if you look kind of like preppy and just like, you know, walk

past the guards and like seem like you belong there, they'll let you go in.

But as they're like approaching, uh, you know, they have this British

documentarian with them and they all of a sudden they're like, We can't trust

these people and like bolt through the woods to get to where they're going.

And the, the documentary is just like, I'm going back through our fucking motel.

Um, but like, then like when they go back, when they come back and they

have their footage, they're showing the footage of like, you know, this

really elaborate performance of like all of these cloaked figures.

And like, they're talking about how like, It looks like, uh, you know, they're

worshiping malloc and, you know, it's, uh, you know, they're probably maybe

they're not actually burning a child right now, but, you know, this is, you

know, representative of child sacrifice and like, uh, like, and then, then,

then after this, which is kind of like brought me to realize, like, you know, how

embedded this kind of thing is in, like, kind of popular culture and, and whatnot

that they interview, you know, uh, Harry Shearer of all people who had been invited

there one year and he was like, honestly, the only conspiracy going on there is

how these people take it seriously.

Um, he was just like, yeah, it was insane and like, just complete nonsense.

Like, I can't remember why he was invited that year, but, but it like made me

think of Stonecutters and the Simpsons.

And like, you know, that kind of like idea of and like things were known

about, uh, Bohemian Grove before that, like there was a journalist.

Uh, in 89 for spy magazine who, uh, who infiltrated and like his quote

was that like the only religion they consecrate is right wing laissez faire

and quintessentially western with some druid tree worship thrown in for fun.

And it's like, that's kind of like, that, that, that was like, and like, when,

when I saw eyes watch up for the first time, I was like, very like familiar

with like, that kind of stuff was like.

You know, when I was a teenager, I was like super, super into like conspiracy

theory and shit and uh, yeah, so like, and like even watching when I was like

rewatching it today, I was kind of thinking, watching it and thinking about

how like it's very clearly like that scene is a performance like, you know, they

have nightingale up there with like the electric piano and he was like, uh, An mpc

sampler next to him and like, you know, they're playing like a, I guess a Romanian

orthodox liturgy backwards as like part of the soundscape and it's like all very much

like a performance that they're putting on to like, kind of like represent they're

like, you know, in, in this instance, I guess, like, they're like sexual virility

with like these, like, you know, all these naked women in masks and stuff.

Yeah, so like that's that was like kind of kind of where that scene always took

me, uh, and then like In like a more like modern day context, uh, it's kind

of like ties in with a weird conspiracy theory about it being unfinished as well.

There's like this like allegation that there was like 20 to 25 minutes cut by

Warner Brothers because it revealed too much about like the nature of the super

society and it's like real life parallels.

They were like, yeah, they were like, uh, apparently they were like.

You know, oh, this is they're they're doing child trafficking here and like

like very like q and on weirdo shit Apparently that theory came from This

conspiracy theorist David Wilcock who's been on like aliens and like a bunch

of really But like the, yeah, like it kind of like it like very clearly like

evokes that kind of imagery, but like it was so it was already so like in the

culture as like representing like as like a metaphor for the kind of like

class power that these people would have.

That like it makes sense to in my intimate to my mind to like, to use

that kind of imagery as like, you know, not as like the conspiracy theory like

expose that like a lot of, you know, these people might think, but like,

you know, it, it works as a metaphor.

Well, it's um, it's interesting.

You mentioned like it being performative and I hadn't really considered.

As you're watching it, it's almost, um, like it, like if you brought people

in that were just, you know, maybe if, like, you could, like, film that scene

and then you showed it to, you know, other wealthy people or maybe even

people like Tom Cruise, they probably would just, like, think it's stupid.

They probably would just laugh.

Like, what the fuck is this?

It's almost like a thing that you do because you can, in a way, almost.

It's just this, it's just to show your Dominance over those women and

dominance over just you have it's uh, yeah, totally I know like a power

play it's like these are just like very very You know cliche terms.

Yeah, and like the rest of the night Yeah, like and like the rest of the

night presumably is that getting blasted and having lots of sex, you know, like

that's probably the only thing that's actually going on at these parties.

Um, but like going back to like the bohemian grove thing, like the after

that, you know, the big cremation of care performance that they do, like basically.

Yeah.

The entire week is just rich people getting drunk together like

apparently lots of public urination.

I could see that.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's, it's like, um, it's like this ritual thing

to make what they do seem special.

Yeah, exactly.

I think that that.

Part of what I, in my notes, writing about the whole, like, orgy thing, it's

very much this just proof that you can do what you want and you just do it because

you can and all of that and it, the, the thing, so this is maybe going beyond, this

is more like a plot thing, so you know, When Tom, when Tom Cruise, like after

this little ritualistic thing, one of the women chooses him to like walk away

with, and she immediately is warning him.

Are you meant to think what we learn later is, is it because, I guess, is it

known as to how she immediately would have known that he was this sort of outsider?

That's another thing that kind of ties into like my like, maybe

his like, maybe his like, kind of general demeanor lets her know that

he's like, not meant to be there.

Like in the book, uh, you know, he like Friedland, the character that's

a bill in the movie, he like, kind of hangs out around the musician

and like, kind of keeps to himself over in the corridor and stuff.

And like, it's, it's a little more obvious in the book that like, You

know he doesn't know anyone right yeah exactly and like doesn't know what the

ceremonies is what like the rituals are what he's supposed to be doing with

himself um but like in the movie that's a little less clear and like kind of

you know the fact that it you know does.

Evidently seem to be you know the sex worker who OD'd in Sydney

Pollock's bathroom and like she does seem to recognize him as.

You know as bill as the doctor that helped her, um, you know earlier It's there's no

like from what I can tell there's no like explicit way that she would know that so

like in my mind that kind of leads back to this like dream logic of just like an

intuitive recognition of who people are even though you don't actually recognize

visually who they are you just kind of like understand who someone is in a dream.

Uh, like that, that's, that's how that's always kind of felt to me.

Yeah, that's, and that's where I sort of briefly mentioned kind of

like the, everyone's wearing a mask and in the scene, obviously you can

only see people's eyes, you know, within their, within their face.

And there is the moment when he comes in, he also like comes in late,

you know, it's also kind of weird.

So maybe that's a weird thing.

And then, but you see one of what seems to be sort of like the leader

of the group kind of gives him a look.

And at first it seems like they're just, you know, nodding,

being like, oh, you know, right.

Good to see you here or something.

But I think it's like he's giving himself as an outsider as well.

I think that that's it.

I think it just maybe also he is like a shittier tuxedo.

He literally got at a costume shop where these people have, you know, like, I

don't know, designer, whatever, some designer you can think of here, tens

of thousands of dollars easily, right?

It easily there just for their, just for their mask is like custom

made or something, who knows?

And so, yeah, so I mean, it's very much that.

And, and I don't, does, does he, does he also realize that it's

the same person from the party?

I mean, You never really officially are said but I just assumed immediately when

you see her that it looks like her I see I don't think that he does really initially

realize until until she like maybe starts, You know, starts to help him.

But even even then like it seems like he's unclear because

like later when later when he.

Is at sydney pollack's house and sydney pollack's like, you know, giving him

reading him the riot act about like how he shouldn't have been there and

stuff he he's like, you know, she, you know, the the one who like offered

herself up to, you know, save you or whatever was the one that you saved

in my, uh, right in my bathroom.

So, like, I don't think he quite realizes, like, Maybe like he has an inkling but

like doesn't quite draw the connection until it's like made explicit uh by sydney

pollack or does he i can't remember if he talks to sydney pollack first or if

he sees the article about her first he's at the he's at like the restaurant where

he's because he's being followed and he's like he sneaks into the restaurant

reads the article and then he i think he goes later and hands it to him you

When he's in his like massive pool room.

Yeah.

I think he, uh, yeah.

Cause I, so I think like when he sees that article, that's when he, like, it kind of

clicks to him that that's who that was.

I, I paused it so I could see, like, to read the whole article.

Cause you know, I'm sure someone probably screenshotted it online, but I paused

and I'm like, Reading the whole article because they very explicitly wrote out.

I mean, it was all about the, you know, about them.

But yeah, I mean, I think the I always took it as he maybe he didn't know, you

know, again, I think you're saying, right?

It's it's one of those things where it's part of this.

You know, Surrealists, you know, kind of, you don't really know what's real,

even though kind of what you see is real and everything and all of that.

And I mean, I guess you kind of talked about maybe sort of like the final

scene of the one of the final scenes, I guess when we're talking about

the very final scene, but the sort of the second to last scene is when

he you mentioned he approaches is.

Um, Sidney Pollack and he kind of goes through this whole thing.

And actually, this is another curiosity thing.

Do you think that all of the, what Sidney Pollack told him was true?

That they actually, you know, that that little ceremony for him was made up to

just kind of get him out of there and he, they didn't actually kill the, the woman.

Like, do you think that's all true?

Or do you think he.

Did all of those things and he's just basically being

like, come on, come on bill.

Yeah, we wouldn't do that.

I that's a tricky one.

Um, like in the is the way it plays out in the book is kind of

interesting because it's like, Yeah.

In the book, Friedland Bill, uh, is like when he gets found out, he kind of like

tries to make a stand and he's like, you know, he, the whole night, uh, he's

been trying to convince this woman under the mask to like run away with him, um,

as like, you know, kind of like acting out what he, you know, what his wife's

fantasy was with, uh, Uh, the other person at the hotel, um, but like that when he

gets caught and like she offers to redeem him, he's like, no, let her come with me.

We'll leave and never come back or whatever.

And like, he's trying to like put on this macho, uh, performance.

And there's, uh, this like sort of undertone that they're like, it does

kind of come across like they're just like putting on a show to like, make

him leave and not want to come back.

They're powerful enough that they could do both things, right?

They could actually do this or they could.

Put on the charade for him.

Yeah.

And like convincingly put on the charade because like everything that's happening

is so like just over the top and out there that like, you know, why wouldn't

you believe that they are willing to, you know, do unspeakable things to this woman,

you know, before killing her, you know?

Um, but also, you know, she very clearly lives a life that, you know, is.

On the edge of, you know, doing, yeah, exactly like, you know, that's.

That's, uh, you know, she loves a risky life as it is.

So it's like, it's, it's so hard to really.

Yeah.

I think it's one of those things you're sort of meant to do as we are

like it could kind of go either way.

I think the one line that.

Makes it less likely.

Although again, it's a, maybe it's a throwaway.

I think that Cindy Pollack says when they found her, the door was locked from the

inside to basically say she was home.

And so you're like, Oh, well, all right, fine.

Yeah.

She, you know, she presumably was home and decided to shoot up and But at the

same time, if you are rich enough and wealthy and powerful enough to have these

incredible events, you could pay off the cop to just say the door was locked.

I mean, it's really not.

Yeah.

And then coming back to the idea that like everything that happens

throughout the movie is a manifestation of like Bill's unconscious, you know,

desires or whatever, like, you know.

Yeah.

In his mind, he, you know, probably wants to have like this notion of like

this grand, you know, deus ex machina coming in to save him and, you know,

like You know almost like a power fantasy of his own like that like a woman would

be willing to sacrifice herself for him You know, right, right Yeah, that

like place that kind of plays into that original like fantasy that his wife had,

you know Nicole Kidman of this someone I guess throughout the oh, I'm actually

more so like throughout the movie every woman Seems to want him constantly.

I mean like you don't know whether it's a projection or actually what it is in this

case I He again has to see that someone is willing to literally what he appears

as, you know, die or whatever for him.

So it's, yeah, it's, uh, it's pretty crazy.

Um, and I think that the final two scenes of the movie and maybe the one

that's kind of the creepiest and, you know, maybe this is, uh, Again, a Sidney

Pollack thing is when he gets home, the mask from the party is on his pillow and

he's can't figure out why you got there.

And I just assumed when I watched this, even the first time was that

Nicole Kidman had gone into the little safe that he had kept the costume

in and stole the mask out of it.

Yeah, that was kind of, uh, kind of what I always assumed was the case

to really interesting thing about that scene that I find unsettling is

the eyes in the mask seem to glow.

So.

Did you notice that?

No, I didn't.

I, I, I don't know if I like, like, I mean, like I've said before, like I've

seen those movies so many times that like, I'm not like I'll probably go back

and watch it like watch that scene again after we're done recording this but like

I feel like they're like, I don't know if I'm like miss seeing it every time

but like it seems to me like there's like a light or something underneath

the mask, which I find very unsettling.

Um, yeah, but like questions reality a little bit too.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And.

You know, then Nicole Kidman's having her nightmare that she

wakes, that he wakes her up from.

And basically, uh, basically her nightmare is kind of, uh,

you know, what his night was.

Exactly.

Like that's, that, that like confused, you know, that's meant to, I guess, really

to put a whole thing of like, was this, was it actually her dream the entire time

of what Tom Cruz might've been doing?

You know, it's very unclear, or is it his fantasy?

And because she's, you know, the way she, you know, it's.

You could go on and on, I guess, on, you know, the, the reality and the dream

sequence, but then when he eventually decides to confess to everything that

happened the whole night, because he either feels guilty or like,

he's not going to be able to explain the mass, like where it came from.

And so, you know, you kind of, the first time I watched it, I

thought that would be, that was it, like, that was the last scene.

He's kind of like crying on the couch or, you know, upset.

And it's over.

But then you have the very final scene where they go to a gigantic toy store for

Christmas and they're buying the daughter, presumably whatever she wants or whatever.

And they kind of have this, you know, what do we do now?

Kind of thing.

And of course, you know, I think people probably all know if they've

seen this sort of like the final line is, you know, what do we Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, what do we do from here?

And she's, you know, the only thing left to do is fuck.

And, uh, you know, it's kind of taking everything back to the very beginning and

kind of maybe another theme of the whole movie is just, you know, this inadequacy,

you know, he, he could never achieve this.

And now, you know, he's finally able to, but then the movie also ends.

And so he again, doesn't actually do it.

So it's almost like one final emasculation in a toy store and, you know, You

know, goes to black and I don't know.

I don't know.

What do you make of the ending?

And I think, uh, one of the things that like, I think the ending really

encapsulates and not just the ending, but like the general Christmas setting,

uh, is kind of like the, the, the, like the function of family, uh, within this

kind of, um, Um, Dynamic and how like he probably like he seems to be both like

stifled by having a family, uh, but also like, you know, Christmas is, you know,

the time of year when, you know, you spend all your time with your family.

If you're fortunate enough to be in, you know, the kind of position where

you Can take vacation time during Christmas or whatever, and, uh, so

like he is probably spending even more time with his family or supposed to be

spending more time with his family, but he's like going through this crisis.

That's like taking that.

He like feels like he needs to escape his family, uh, as as a result of and.

You know, it reflects kind of at the same time, the, the kind of dynamic

he finds himself in with like, you know, these more powerful people where

he's, you know, You know, Christmas has become like obviously a very commercial

like capitalist kind of time of year.

That's much more about these like, you know, financial concerns

than actual family concerns.

So it kind of kind of draws out the kind of like to competing tensions, I think.

Uh, that are making him question everything about his

life, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I see.

Yeah.

I mean, like the, especially being at a toy store where you're literally just.

It's like the ultimate, you know, Christmas capitalist buying,

you know, buying needless toys.

And actually one thing that made me think of as you were talking

about that is it would probably be no surprise to me that Tom Cruise

is sort of a very absent father.

He's probably always at work, you know, he's always has to go see some

patient and does these house calls.

And he probably does that in part to.

Maybe get away from his family and at the same time to, you know, make more

money and accumulate and do the thing he thinks, you know, he's supposed to

do and just keep making money and, you know, have a, have a wife and have 1.

5 kids and, you know, the, the whole like his version of like, uh, I don't

want, I hate to say American dream, but sort of like what his vision of being,

you know, successful in quotation marks in, in, You know, in America and ending

in a toy story also kind of feels, and we actually, it wasn't actually

until right now that we mentioned that this is a Christmas movie, which, you

know, it's a, it is a Christmas movie.

It's takes place during Christmas.

It's, uh, it's probably more of a Christmas movie than die hard for anyone.

Oh yeah, it's totally like, like the, the thing about eyes wide shut is like,

I think Christmas is kind of integral to.

What happens like, you know, if you I'm I mean, I guess the the novel takes

place during Shrove Tide, but, um, you know, that's, you know, a similar kind of

festival period where like, you know, it's very much about, you know, the family and.

And why not, but like, you know, all of these like undercurrents of like family

and and what have you are like draw really like drawn out by Christmas in

a way that like, you know, and die hard that could have happened any time of year

like it happens during Christmas party, but like it could have happened any time

of year during any kind of party like it like Christmas is not essential to the

plot of that movie is like, you know, I, I, I'm a really big Christmas nerd.

Like, I fucking love Christmas.

Like, it's it's a thing.

But like to me, for a movie to be a Christmas movie, it really

needs like Christmas needs to be like kind of at the core of.

Like the, the theme of the, of the movie and like it, I really think it is

in the case of, uh, of Eyes Wide Shut and, uh, I think worth noting that, uh,

we're recording this three days after half Christmas as, uh, that's true,

fought for our rights to celebrate half Christmas were fought for by, uh.

Blake and Adam to the chagrin of Durst, if anyone isn't a workaholics fan.

Yeah.

And as you're saying too about the, uh, like being like an integral part,

you know, when he goes to Domino's apartment, I'm pretty sure they

have a little Christmas tree there.

Yeah.

There's like gifts in the, in the sink because they have

nowhere else to put them.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

And I think there's a couple other places where, when they go to the hospital or

when he goes to the morgue, I'm Maybe I'm misremembering it for some reason.

I seem to remember there being decorations at the hospital.

Maybe I'm not remembering.

I think I was reading earlier today, actually, that like,

and this might be wrong.

I didn't double check or anything, but like the only scene that doesn't have

Christmas decoration, the only scenes that don't have any Christmas decorations

are the scenes that happen at the orgy.

Interesting.

It's kind of like, uh, what you would say secular, uh, I don't

know what the, almost pagan.

Yeah, that, yes, yes.

Very much.

So like this ritualistic thing, like doesn't matter.

They don't care about Christmas.

Like what do they need Christmas to buy a bunch of shit and they

have, they have all the shit, right.

They have.

15, 000 suits and God knows what else.

And yeah, exactly.

The other, the other funny, this is like, just, I forgot to mention this.

I think it's funny when, uh, Sidney Pollack is talking to him and they,

he's like, you know, he's like, how did they figure out who it was me?

And it's like, you left a, you had a cab driver waiting for you at the end of this

hallway when Everyone else came probably in like Bentleys and limos and shits.

That that's kind of the, would be a good dead giveaway, you know, to, uh, to, um,

but yeah, I just, I just thought that was funny, but yeah, I mean, that's, yeah,

again, definitely a Christmas movie.

And, um, I don't think I had, I think I most part, pretty much all the notes

I had, I think I hit, was there any things you had noted that we didn't

touch on or do you want to think?

I think we've hit pretty much everything.

I think.

The only thing I think I, I missed was when I was talking about the,

like the, the, uh, the ritual as sort of like a performance of like, uh,

like a demonstration of, you know, the power of, of class or whatever

in the, in the novel, all of the.

All of the costumes are all of the men are dressed as, uh, monks and

all of the women are dressed as nuns.

So, you know, the time that that was written, you know, those were seen as,

you know, the arbiters of power within, you know, uh, within that society.

So it's.

You know, still, uh, you know, drawing on kind of the imagery, just an

updated version of that imagery to, you know, reinforce the, the, the

way that, you know, this power is, you know, costuming itself, I guess.

But other, other than that, that was the only, I think, point that I really missed.

Yeah, I don't think.

Oh, so this is, so I only have one other note and this is partly from that

article that I've mentioned before this article, I guess you call it article.

That the, um, there's probably again, if you went through this, you could

probably have a whole another couple hours talking about all the things

that he, that this person uncovered.

But one of them is that the daughter's name is Helena, which is,

you know, a very form of the word Helen, which is apparently a Greek

word that means light or bright.

And, you know, you obviously Christmas being like the time of lights and things.

So it's very much that he chose her name as this, you know, very, Likely very,

uh, uh, you know, nothing, nothing.

Kubrick doesn't leave everything to chance.

I mean, it's very, which is why I can't believe that the movie

wasn't finished, considering how much detail is in this movie.

I mean, it's so meticulous that I, I don't believe that it wasn't finished.

And I think, did he make an appearance in the movie?

Did I read that right?

That he's in some scene?

That's a really good question.

I don't know.

Oh, yes.

Um, maybe in one of the like cafe scenes.

I'm not sure.

Yeah, I don't remember.

It's I thought that I had read that, but I can't find can't find that note

now, but maybe I'll maybe I'll find.

But yeah, so I mean, yeah, I don't have anything left on the movie.

Um, but Jonathan, it's been a great to have you on the show.

And, um, Yeah, I don't think I have anything else.

And I don't know if you want to, I guess I should have, this probably

would have been better at the beginning.

I guess I could just move it, but I don't know if there's anything you wanted to,

um, to share anything you're working on or places people can find you on the

internet if you, um, want people to.

Yeah, I'm not sure.

Yeah, I'm not sure when this is going to come out and when the video is going

to come out, but I have a video for the artist Fog Lake coming up soon ish.

So that'll I'm pretty excited about that.

Um, but, uh, you know, that'll eventually make its way to One of

my various corners of the internet.

I'm like, I'm on most social media platforms.

I'm not on Twitter anymore because I was unjustly banned for uh, for I

suspect for trolling Zionists That Twitter tells me it was for gaming

the platform Something like that.

I don't know what the fuck they're talking about, but I Yeah, I've been

suspended for a few months, and it's probably a blessing, um, but I'm on,

like, Blue Sky, Instagram at getratified, um, my website is johnkennedy.

net, j o n kennedy.

net, um, And yeah, a bunch of my short films are up there.

I've got a few short films in the works that may or may not be out this year.

I don't know.

Uh, I'm really bad at finishing projects.

Um, but, uh, Yeah, so like follow me on, I'm, I'm most

active on Instagram probably.

Yeah.

I'll put the, I'll put over all those links down there too.

And I, but yeah, Jonathan, thank you so much for, uh, for coming on.

It's been great.

Yeah.

Thanks for asking me.

This was really fun.

Absolutely.

And so, you know, you can find this podcast on all those same internet

places and, uh, subscribe, like, rate, and we'll catch you next time.