Well, hello there, dear listener.

This is the iron fist and the velvet glove podcast.

It is Tuesday 17th of August, 2021.

And I think we're up to episode 300 night.

Not quite sure.

I just checked.

It is 3 0 9.

Thank you, Joe.

The tech guy.

So anyway, episode 309, the iron fist and the velvet glove podcast,

where we talk about news and politics and sex and religion.

I of course am Trevor AKA, the iron fist with me with a new microphone that you

gathered today and the sound's great.

The video's great.

Shea.

Welcome back again.

Good evening.

Hi everybody.

And Joe, the tech guy is there as well evening all so, oh yes.

In the chat room, say hello so that we know you're there and

we'll try and get to you comments.

We don't have a whole heap of.

Topics that I normally have.

So we'll probably be looking for some comments from the chat room.

So by all means, make a comment, say, hello, it'd be great.

And well, what are we going to be talking about tonight?

I think we have to talk about new south Wales and lockdowns and Gladys

Berejiklian and probably a bit about Afghanistan and Shay, you found something

interesting about legalization of prostitution and thoughts about that

and a whole bunch of different topics.

So we'll kick them off and see what rabbit holes we end up going down.

Thanks to dire straits.

He says a lot on the chat room and well, shall he got any friends

in new south Wales in Sydney?

Do you have any friends in bemoaning their situation?

I have a bunch of cousins in Newcastle and I have a couple in rave SPE.

So yeah.

Unhappy my cousins in new console, we're planning to get, this is the, the

time they've rescheduled their wedding.

So that's been just canned as well.

Cause it was what happened in Brisbane.

And do you think they're bitter bit, I mean, anecdote isn't, you know, a number

of anecdotes isn't the plural of anecdote isn't data, but we'll do it anyway.

Your friends, are they like so pissed with Berejiklian that they can't

wait to vote her out next time?

Or you think it's got no, right.

No, I don't think it's connected.

They seem to be just like pissed off at their circumstance, but like,

get that it's a pandemic and they just they're pretty fair about it.

They just say, you know, like we're in new territory all the time and we don't know.

Right?

Like you can tell that, you know, the premiers off kind of

fumbling their way through it.

Yes.

And that's what I find with, with, you know, anecdotally with

Australians, they are quite gracious.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Well, I'm not the health report today.

They said for every week you take to go into lockdown, you get five times as many

cases for every week you go into lockdown or that you don't go into lockdown.

Yeah.

You get fired.

Okay.

Yup.

That wouldn't surprise me.

And that was before Delta, but at one level I could be sympathetic

for any political leader that some of this happens beyond your

control and you can be just online.

But in the case of Berejiklian, she really annoyed me with her comments

in relation to dictate a day in.

And she was so cocky about how different they were in new south Wales.

So my son sent me a link to a YouTube video, which goes for about seven

minutes and I've condensed it down to about two minutes, which is.

Highlights the hypocrisy of Gladys.

So I'm going to play that.

It's going to go for two minutes and 11 seconds and have listened to this new

south Wales is the gold standard and new south Wales is the gold standard.

I'm very proud of your time.

The prime minister regards new south Wales as the gold standard.

And I fear for Victoria and I worry about what the government may do.

And we made sure that we had the systems in place to be able to weather, whatever

came our way so that we wouldn't ever go into lockdown again from 6:00 PM

today, lockdown, lockdown, lockdown, lockdown, lockdown, lockdown, so that

we wouldn't ever go into lockdown again, greater Sydney will be in lockdown and

locked in, locked down for a further four weeks to the 28th of August.

So I talked about good management being critical during a, during

a crisis, but so is trust.

And we trusted our public.

We trusted our community when we gave them advice to do the right thing.

The crowd grew so fast with hardly a mask inside onwards.

They marched from Broadway to town hall.

Once at town hall, they took every vantage spot from high above the

numbers were staggering, south Wales.

We didn't make up lists of who was an essential worker.

Nobody can work outside of that local government area unless, unless

they're a health or aged care worker or on the list of critical workers.

Can I make it very clear that new south Wales, unlike other states has

never determined what is essential and what is not essential, but from

midnight tonight, we will also.

Make sure that only critical retail remains open.

We have a list of what is critical retails and in new south Wales, we didn't

make up lists of who was an essential worker on the list of critical workers.

We didn't make up lists.

We have a list.

We didn't make up lists.

Now we have a list.

We didn't make up lists.

We've considered carefully what is on that critical lessons.

And I hope we've demonstrated in new south Wales.

There is an alternate turn it way to heavy handed lockdowns

and heavy handed approaches.

Will we have harsher restrictions in place than any other state has ever had?

Even during the lockdown, our construction sites, we're still going

until July 30 until midnight on July 30.

There will be a pause on all construction, large or small.

We know that when S when you're in a lockdown, it's easy to control the virus.

It's much easier to look down because you don't have to worry about anything.

We're very courageous when it comes to the virus.

A lot of those comments have not aged very well.

No, there's no admission.

Okay.

We got it wrong.

There's none of the Peter beady.

Whoops, made a mistake just to keep charging on.

And boy, you know, she's really had to backtrack on so much of what she said.

So it had to happen to somebody and then happening to her was probably the best.

I think might've taught her some humility, thinks time, something happens to

another state and she just gets lucky.

Then hold my breath on the humility, Joe, th there was also the clip of

her OS being asked if she realized now she, she felt how the other states

felt when she asked, when she refused earlier on to give them vaccines

when Victoria was in a similar state.

And she couldn't understand that her asking for vaccines now, Yes, indeed.

Hello in the chat room to Brahman Dawn James, Jack whoever's

making comments in there.

Good on you.

Keep making those comments.

So obviously now new south Wales is really given in, on ever getting back to zero.

It seems from the comments that she's making and just as an outside observer,

looking at the state, it's hard to imagine them getting back to zero.

So this is really the next step in the whole process, Shea, where it's

about at what level of vaccination do we just open up again and,

and say, okay, that's enough.

And, and start getting back to normal trade relying on a certain vaccination

level, got any thoughts that you're comfortable with as a number?

Yeah, I think the national strategies 80%.

So I'd be satisfied with that.

Eligible adults.

Is that, is that what it would be?

Right.

So, so really it's 60% of the population, or even 50% of the

population and give them a lot of kids have got this Delta virus.

Now you really probably need to be 80% of kids as well.

Like that sort of teenagers, at least.

Yeah, I would say so.

Yeah.

It's going to be tricky to get to that level.

And there is going to be a point there, you know, it has to come at

some point where we say enough's enough and we just can't keep locking down.

And, and there will be a day where we just open up and say, you're going

to have to rely on your vaccination.

And there will be a spike in cases and a spike in deaths on that day of people

who either didn't want the vaccination or as Joe points out, often people who

couldn't get it because of different reasons that they're unable to.

It's just, what's going to happen at some point.

And it is possible to get back to zero, which would buy some more time.

Victoria did it from 700 cases a day.

Yeah.

But that was, but they got, they were serious about it.

Weren't they joke exactly.

That's the difference you have to go in seriously, you have to

look down and there will be pain.

And I don't think they have the political willpower to do that.

Yeah.

Yep.

So Julia, in the chat room says you have 80%, doesn't include kids and they

need to be included in the figures now.

Yes.

So so just, yeah, that's the next part of this whole discussion is, is where

we head to with vaccination rights and, and of course they will be.

Probably business people on the one hand wanting to make decisions that

are less concerned with public health.

And there will be people who are concerned with public health and

not so concerned with business.

And we will be bound to see the the fighting between the two

forces and how it plays out.

I think the evidence is fairly good that it's not neither all

that just concentrating on business and not worrying about health is

actually detrimental to business because people, people get scared.

And if the virus is left on it to run its course, people still won't go out.

You know, a minority will.

But you, you won't have the same level of business that you would, that we

were enjoying having got to zero cases, but the people like, ah, screw Turner

in charge of flight center and other groups Em, I think of really, they're

just going to be pushing forward and they don't see that argument.

They just want to be able to operate their businesses at full steam and local cafes

and restaurant groups going to say, we want to be open and we just don't care.

We need were going broke.

We need the money.

And that is one of the problems that you have to have sympathy for these people.

They're not getting the same money that they got at the beginning of the pandemic

with the money that was handed out.

I know in the art supply will that when the lockdowns first happened back last

year, there was a lot of money, a wash, a lot of struggling artists actually

had more money than they had previously.

And there was a lot of art supplies being bought, but that's not the case.

This time round it's sort of consumer sentiment is a lot slower.

It's a lot weaker this time.

Well, because job seeker and job keeper are gone.

Yes.

And there are small handouts from the government, but nothing like we need.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Why aren't people complaining about this more and I don't get it.

Yeah.

Anyway I've been listening to the chaser podcast.

Anybody else out there listening to that?

It's fantastic.

Those guys are logged down, so they've got nothing else to do, but turn

out really funny podcast every week.

It's very, very good.

You should listen to it.

And anyway, Charles Firth he wrote an article he's from the chaser and

he talked about how Morrison gets things wrong all the time in, in this.

And he said Scott Morrison unveiled an all new four-stage plan out of COVID

endorsed by the national cabinet.

This is not to be confused with the three-stage plan that Morrison announced

in may or the COVID vaccination allocations horizon plan that he

unveiled in June or the COVID 19 vaccine and treatment strategy plan.

Revealed a year ago when he proudly announced he'd secured enough vaccine

for everyone with so many worldwide planes and say little achieve.

We have now more than enough evidence to introduce a new iron law into the very

scientific field of political science.

Scott Morrison has been so wrong about every single aspect of the pandemic that

his wrongness now has predictive powers.

If Scott Morrison says something is going to happen, it is possible to say with

absolute certainty using the and law.

But whatever he said is definitely not going to happen.

If Scott Morrison thinks something is a good idea, then it is

definitely not a good idea.

If Scott Morrison says we don't need purpose-built quarantine facilities.

And even if you lack any other data point or expertise, you can be

absolutely assured that we fucking need purpose-built quarantine

facilities in the Italy entails first.

It says, this is the Morrison certainty principle, and I loved it.

So.

Yeah.

If he says it, it's probably wrong Morrison, certainty, principle, what a

mess we're in having that guy in charge.

So, ah, okay.

Or then is aiming for 80% as our target.

Does that even seem likely, then I saw her at Powell, the essential poll came

out, talking about people's reluctance to get the vaccine, you know, are you

likely to get soon or sometime or never?

And they never figured dropped a lot.

So that was good.

It had been back to sort of, it went back to like single figures of people

saying they would never get it.

So I think 80% is possible.

Yeah, I think so.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Okay.

Let's move on from COVID for a little while.

And the national sec.

Well, we had the census.

Shay and Joe seemed to filled it in.

It was if he didn't don't tell me, cause it's illegal, not to where

all the libertarians, by the way, complaining about being forced to

fill in the census form, you know, forced to wear a mask forced to stay

at home and see any protests about having to divulge personal info.

But anyway at the census.

So of course for us, the big question was the religious question.

And the way it's been phrased is particularly annoying for

pro secular groups, because it says, what is your religion?

And that's kind of like a leaning question where people will think rather

than stopping to think, do I have a religion they'll sort of nominate one

that they were brought up in, in secular groups have for years been saying that

if the question was rephrased to say something like what is your religion.

Instead of what is your religion to say something like a two-part question?

Do you currently have a religion followed by what is your religion?

And the thinking was that that would give a more accurate result.

So I actually mentioned this to the national secular lobby.

A couple of months ago, said you guys should conduct proper poll where

you question people two different groups with this, with the, the way

the census has currently structured.

And with a question in a two-part and see what difference you get.

And then you'll have proof to say to the IBS that there is a real problem here,

because they'd been making representations to the Australian bureau of statistics

who basically ignoring them and saying, we don't see a problem with the question.

So this is an exercise in trying to provide proof.

So, so they went to essential pole.

So where we often in this podcast talk about the essential poll in terms of

People's opinions about lockdowns and who they're going, gonna vote for and stuff.

So essentially we're a really reputable organization and they

did it over two different polls.

So our roughly 1100 people were questioned in each of the two days.

And on the first day one group or half of them were asked

the census type of question.

And the other half were asked the two-part question.

And then a week later, or two weeks later, when they did the poll again, they did

the same thing with another group where they asked them the census type question.

Then I asked them the two-part question.

And so then they amalgamated it altogether and they roughly had about

1100 people answering the census style question and about 1100 people

answering the two part question, which is a good number of people to have.

So.

Let me just see if I can read this a bit better in terms of era effective samples.

The, the margin of error is 3.1%.

So a 95% confidence level.

So a good number to use like proper, proper sample was done.

So a big question and I'll put it on the screen for those watching the

live stream is what was the result and looking at the no religion response.

So when people will ask the current census question, what is your religion?

Doing it with this poll 41% said no religion, but when asked, do

you currently have a religion followed by what is your religion?

Then 52% said that they have no religion.

So there's an 11% difference.

Make sense, Joe.

Yeah.

I think it is, if you prime people, we know you get a difference

between how they answer question.

Yep.

So it's interesting.

I saw some of the correspondence between the national secular lobby and

the Australian bureau of statistics.

And it's kind of funny where the bureau was kind of saying, we're

not that interested in what people's religion is as to what they consider

their religious heritage to be like.

It's a very funny sort of response from the Australian bureau of statistics about

what they thought they were looking for.

So anyway, good job by the national secular lobby to get that done.

And that'll give him plenty of ammunition over the years to lobby and

suggest to the statisticians that I should stop asking leading questions.

What else was in there?

If you basically then look at a two-part question and look at the

figures, the most popular religion would be a Catholic, which would be 16%

and then the next would be Anglicans 8% and then it really drops away.

Uniting church, 3% Islam, Buddhism Presbyterian Hinduism, 2% Greek

Orthodox, 1% Baptist, 1%, other 5%.

So say Chris, so Catholics at 16% only 16% of our population.

But when you think of all of the Catholics education facilities,

hospitals, it's amazing.

Amazing number of institutions that are Catholic, given the

representation in our community.

An amazing amount of power given the low representation, but that's how,

that's how it's turned out for us.

Unfortunately, what else was in these statistics?

And that it's critically important that we give them taxpayer money

to fund all this infrastructure.

Yes, indeed.

How much housework do you do at Trevor?

How much do housework do I do?

Yeah, I'm from the census question.

Yeah.

Well it asked me for last week and I have to sign my house yet for the

week that it asked, I have to say my household duties were quite low.

I was busy with other things.

It's not difficult.

So you're saying it's not, not representative, but it wasn't a

normal week, but I had to look to say what it was for that week.

Yeah.

Typically what would I say typically?

I often wash, I would regularly.

Do the washing up stack the dishwasher for example, and unstack

the dishwasher during the day.

And I make all the coffees in this house.

Does that count as coffee making like you're reaching, but yeah,

I used to ha how's this.

I used to have to mow the lawn.

So I was in charge of the lawn and my wife was in charge of the gardening.

And what I did is I managed to convince her that we should rip up

the lawn and replace it with a garden.

I haven't fired up.

It was, you do realize she listens to the podcast.

I only have to go the foot part.

I don't really care about it.

Very good.

Yeah.

At the household duties now, Well, no, sir.

I would usually put my mother's washing on and hang my mother's washing out.

So there you go.

That's something I do do a lot of carriers.

I put me down to for carer activities as well.

So with taking her shopping, taking her to the doctors, other

things saying we'll be down for that fairly modern, I might think.

Yeah.

Okay, look, I've got enough of an inquisition from justice burns last week.

I don't need one from you.

Sure.

Well, it wasn't, it didn't seem like there was outrage about religion, but it, it

seems to be some outrage around pronouns.

And I was personally a bit mad because the way they'd framed the question

about whether you were on job K-pop or had found other work, like it, wasn't

an opportunity to really describe your situation in the past year.

And I thought considering, you know, the level of insecure work and all

of the, you know, things that have transpired in the past year, that that

was, that was a shame, frankly, right?

Yep.

Yeah.

The odd one, there was a question asking if you'd been

a member of the defense force.

Oh, and yeah.

And really shouldn't they shouldn't, they have that information.

Shouldn't there be?

Yes.

Shouldn't there be a book somewhere with a name, rank serial number, date of birth.

Couldn't possibly work that out through other means.

If they'd been asking for overseas service, as in people who'd served in

other armies, I could understand that.

I can't remember how it was phrased and it was just assuming that ADF I did it right.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

That's a strange question for, Hmm.

Yeah.

When I migrated, they asked me what military service I'd done as part

of my migration fees or application.

Okay.

Yeah.

Look, maybe the census people had sort of been looking at it at

Afghanistan and thought these guys are responsible for a cock-up there.

They probably can't even keep track of their own members.

We better do it for them.

That could be, it could be what's happening there, I guess, is

that it's around veteran funding.

Okay.

Okay.

19.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But even then that's going to be misleading because my mother was

not, but she gets veteran funding cause she's a widow of an month.

So I might get a really good picture from that.

Hm.

Okay.

Shai, you sent through something about the Victorian government has endorsed,

oh, let's decriminalized prostitution.

Yeah.

So I had a bit of a Gladys moment because of the last podcast I'd been.

I basically did a shout out to this campaign group called

collective shout, who am I thought?

We're quite good at campaigning for an exploitation to women.

But I have to disagree with them on their position.

So they are really angry at the Victorian government for decriminalizing sex

work and have said that basically it's just opening the doors to

more pimping and more problems.

And of course, commodifying a woman's body is, you know, taking us back on.

You're actually disagreeing with them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I did an assignment on the, this last semester around

the subject was Davey ants.

And I did determine how David's sex work was.

And while I appreciate that commodifying, a woman's body is like

a pretty backward and unpleasant.

The way I see it is actually decriminalizing sex work is the

simplest way to actually get sex workers, some rights and some agency.

Yeah.

So I just want it to say what God thought I was.

I, yeah, everything that I saw was that sex work is flourishing.

It's moving online.

I think if you took any other issue, issue like voluntary assisted dying

that actually regulating it does provide us with Yeah, options.

It's not the, it's not the ultimate solution.

It's, it's not going to fix the problem, but it gives sex workers the opportunity

to go to the police now and not have to worry about being prosecuted themselves.

Okay.

So let me just explain for the deal listener that I think it was

decriminalized previously in relation to the women as participants in

offering the service, but that it wasn't decriminalized in relation to the

pimps and which is a, really the term for the, for the organizers, I guess.

And so I think the argument was that they were agreeing that, of course it should

be decriminalized for women who are offering the service, but the, I didn't

want to decriminalize for the pimps.

And they were signing that.

And they were referring to what had happened in New Zealand, I think.

And, and they were saying that women were getting treated

worse once the laws changed.

And so they support the Nordic model or the Swedish model, which is where it's

illegal to buy sex, but not to sell sex.

Yeah.

And this, the ACL also support this.

It seems to be a very Christian shaming thing.

And from the countries that have implemented the sex workers say

that as soon as you make it illegal you, yeah, it doesn't matter

whether it's legal for the girls.

It's still a seedy shady activity.

They get surveilled by the police to catch the boat, the guys who are buying it.

And it actually, they get pushed to do risky or work because.

One of these women said when the law changed in a decriminalized,

the, the other participants, she said, I'd never heard someone say

I paid fuel body and I can do what I want until decriminalization.

And she, one of the other their submission to the review was we amplified the voices

of sex trade survivors who had worked both prior to and after decriminalization

was implemented in New Zealand.

These women described worse conditions for prostituted women who had less power to

negotiate, but none of the rights of an employee, they said decriminalizing, the

purchase of sex emboldened, the misogynist men who paid to use them, and that it

increased their sense of entitlement and led to greater violence against.

Now, remember the what are the, what's their name?

Collective shout is run by some very committed Catholics seems

to be a Catholic lobby group.

And we know how they misreported the data.

Yes.

Is that right?

It's run by a bunch of Catholics.

Look up

what it says at the bottom that they're nonpolitical their website and

nonpolitical and non-religious okay.

Well the CEO is definitely a committed Catholic who is all about what was it

right to live for whatever they call themselves false birth, basically sneaky.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

It seems to be a Catholic the fact that the ACL support

decriminalization, sorry, the Nordic model, the same as these guys do.

And the fact that they slate Fiona pattern as, as being a member of the porn lobby

rather than as a former sex worker.

Yes.

So Fiona pattern who actually introduced the bill knows of, and has many friends

who still are what it's like to.

To do sex work.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

Not his thing.

Isn't it?

They have a guy collective shout not to be trusted.

It's seen.

Yeah.

Cause I just thought like, cause even some of the comments on the thing was

just like, go and go and see what's happening in Germany and Germany's

decriminalize sex work seems fine.

I check the legislation provided by the Victorian government and it, yeah.

It's seems very sensible.

I don't think they're just letting, well, there you go.

Your instincts were right.

Che.

It's saying it's amnesty support decriminalization and a couple

of other major NGOs also support.

Yeah, just guys to show.

When you, when you hear of a lobby group, you need to know who's paying them.

What is the agenda?

Yeah, the problem with the anti pimp laws is people are saying you can't be

in rented accommodation because your landlord might be charged as a pimp

for living off the illegal process.

And girls can't band together collectively.

So I think in Queensland, they can hire a receptionist, but that's it right?

And I think there can be no more than two of them working together.

Otherwise they have to apply for a brothel license.

So there's a whole load of restrictions that make it very difficult.

So Shea, you've handed in this assignment and you've done that.

All right.

Well, if you had your chance, you would have put a little footnote

in about who this group is, but

I didn't have this at hand.

Yeah.

So yeah.

Bronwyn mentioned traffic to people whilst it is.

It definitely does happen.

The vast majority of traffic people are actually traffic Dale

to work on farms and in factories.

Right.

Because despite all the, oh my God, we need to save the traffic to people.

It tends to be a moralistic religious argument.

Because if you actually look at the people who deal with

Trafficked and enslaved people.

The vast majority of it is domestic work.

Quite often families bringing people over from India or China are the two

big places factories and farms, other places where people are mistreated.

And I think it's something like 90% of people are in that.

Hmm.

Interesting.

So there we go.

That was a good one, Joe, to find the background and those

guys let's have, we need to, we couldn't possibly pass by this week.

They are referring to what's happened in Afghanistan and those scenes of the

airplanes, leaving the airport with people, literally hanging on to the,

to the bits and whatever they could on the outside of the plane and then

falling off mid air and plummeting to the ground around people sharing the video.

And it's like, I don't need to see the video.

Thank you very much.

So amazing scenes.

And you know, the thing that strikes me with all of this is nobody's looked at

any of the modern history as to why this country is in the mess it's in to start

with and how it got to this situation.

And you know, why is America well, well, it's, isn't it terrible.

America is leaving and the Taliban again to come in.

Sorry.

And it all went wrong at the Khyber pass, I think.

Right.

Okay.

Whatever right.

Or, oh, sorry, the brush.

And when it owned India was taking over neighboring countries and came

up and tried to invade Afghanistan.

Yes.

And got bogged down back then.

Yes.

And Western incursions into Afghanistan have been going on ever since then.

Yeah.

I mean, I mean, people look at these countries and.

I'll say the Taliban and, and they'll go, what is it that these countries

bunch of savages, like, why can't they just get their act together?

Why are they, why are we bothering the Weiss tail?

You know, military lives over there, we should just let

these people get on with it.

Well, the answer is we should just let them get on with it.

The problem, the reason why they're part of the reason these guys are in

a mess is because of the interference that has gone on by the U S 50, 60 years

ago, that is coming home to roost to die, like the incessant interference,

stopping these countries from actually having the governments that they

wanted to back then is leading to, you know, the cause of the problems now.

So, so just a little recap on some middle Eastern history.

And so . Afghanistan is tied up with Iran in many ways.

And to understand Afghanistan, a little bit of understanding of

Iran is sort of required here.

So back in 1953, Iran had Julia elected Masa Dick, and by all accounts, he was a

decent man who looked at the oil revenue.

The British petroleum was taking out of the country and they were basically paying

a peppercorn rent and taking all of the profits from oil and it was leaving Iran.

And he said, you can't do that.

We've got to renegotiate this contract.

It's just simply not fair.

And even America said to the British, Hey, that's a, of course that's an unfair deal.

You just can't let that continue.

Anyway, the British of course, backed British petroleum and.

Eventually the Americans came around to their point of view.

Can't remember the exact details wide, but essentially they had a CIA

operative called Kermit Roosevelt.

Like it's a great name Kermit, as in Kermit the frog and Roosevelt, as in

the president, isn't really related.

And he single, almost single-handedly engineered the

coup that overthrew Masa Dick.

And they, you know, he hired thugs to walk the streets and he hired

people to do a propaganda campaign.

And the Giulia elected leftish wing government of Masa DEC was overthrown

and in its place was the Shah of Iran.

And what happened with the Shah was that he at times tried to, to sort of

modernize the country to some extent.

But he came up with the problem where he was clashing with the the Islamis.

So the Ayatollah Khamenei was exiled by the Shah for 14 years.

And the Ayatollah basically created this new force in politics, which was Islamic

political activity up until then America only had one enemy and that was communism,

but by interfering in Iran, in refusing to help the left, they, they enabled

what became this Islamic political force.

So that didn't exist without American interference in Iran, in the first place.

And of course there was a revolution and and the Islamist one, and, and

that was a watershed moment where political Islam became a force

for the first time in the world.

So.

So that was back in 1979 that that, that I overthrow happen by the Ayatollah.

And in Afghanistan, it was, you have a similar character in the 1970s.

I'm a Hammad day dude who was kind of a little bit like the shy in

that he was wanting to modernize.

But whereas the shower was a, a I'm in cahoots with the USI.

This Muhammad dyad was more or less in cahoots with the Soviet union.

Yeah.

And he was worried about urban communists and also this growing

Islamist movement in his country.

So he basically started killing people and, and and routing

through different elitist groups.

And the Islam has fled.

And I went to Pakistan where they were welcomed with open arms

and it ended up then there was some communists to Rakhi and.

Who took over.

And they had a thing called the people's democratic party of Afghanistan,

which was a left, you know, communist Soviet sympathizing group, who

specifically were extremely secular.

Like they banned people attending mosque.

They told men they had to shave their beards.

They had you know polo policies about empowering women in education.

You know, when people are looking at Afghanistan to die

and going, ah, it's terrible.

What's going to happen with this Islamist force, the Taliban now, and

what's going to happen to women will.

Why?

Back in the late seventies, there was a group who trying to secularize

the country, but because they were allied with the Soviets, the Americans

wanted nothing to do with them.

Anyway.

What happened was that the Soviets became worried about the guy who was in charge.

I thought he was starting to side up with the USI.

The Soviets executed him, different guy took over and it was the Islamist who

provided the opposition to that sort of Soviet how that had been put in place.

And of course, when the Soviets then entered the country, decide shore up

their man it was the Islamists in the form of the Mujahideen who provided the

the opposition to these Soviet forces.

And of course the USA helped the Islamist.

Would your Hardin and that more jihad Dean kind of morphed into not exactly.

Some of them went into the Taliban and the Taliban was created through

other means, but certainly had a major Hardeen element to it.

So.

Yeah, the USA is, is again, got a big finger in the pie in

terms of, of the creation of the Taliban as a force in the area.

So, you know, arguably, if these countries had just been allowed to

have their left leaning governments and just left alone for a while, okay.

They weren't the nicest of groups and they were killing elites

and doing all sorts of things.

But in the long term scheme of things you wouldn't have created

this extra Islamic political force.

That's ended up being such a big problem for America saying.

So when people look at the Taliban, riding into town and saying, oh,

well the Americans did their best, but they shouldn't be spending any

more men in defending the place.

You just have to remember it's all a consequence of what's happened

over the last 40 or 50 years.

Well, a lot of American weapons were left leftover indeed.

And I don't.

Do you remember the living daylights, James Bond?

No.

So he ended up in Afghanistan, helping the majority and against

the Soviets and spies like us.

I seem to remember what was also, which was Chevy chase.

Right?

John Joel, Joel in the chat room says in Rambo, I forget Rambo.

Yeah.

I think I've only ever seen the first one, which of course was set on your soil.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sorry.

I've interrupted.

Sorry, Joe.

No, no, no.

But yeah, it was very much a anything against the filthy Soviets.

Yes.

So so anyway a lot of the problems in these countries comes about because

of the interference that meant I couldn't just go through the processes

they wanted to, when they thought about having a left wing government.

And if, if the U S had a loud or even helped him forgive heaven forbid at that

point, then history could have been a lot different, but I was just thinking.

Sadly insane.

San of Husayn was also funded by the Americans.

Noriega was funded by the Americans.

Noriega was allegedly a CIA bye.

Yep.

In a shy in July, under by the Americans, they just allow these thugs

they'll allow anybody to come in.

Who's just not slightly left.

And and then because they don't allow the left to operate them in the

middle east, we've had this political Islamic group being the only group

that can provide an opposition.

And that's what people center around saying.

So they've only got themselves to blind is the short answer.

Yeah.

Okay.

So that was a bit about Afghanistan.

We didn't mention previously Shai, what did you think about the labor

party capitulating on tax reform and.

The liberals have passed all of these laws that provide tax relief

for middle and upper income earners.

People are 200,000 a year in libraries said, well, we're not

going to change it if we get in.

Did you have any thoughts about that?

Yes.

I I guess part of me was like, oh, and I also think we don't have the

might to, to sell an alternate view.

It's not an election losing slash winning type situation.

In fact, kind of letting this one throw to what's the, thank you.

I guess what I'm saying is it's two seats.

We have to, we have to win two seats, maybe three to get a

majority in federal government.

We balance, we have to balance Al fights around that.

I write elbows, but I really hate these guys.

And that seems to be like the game playing.

And I'm at a point now where I just kind of have to like, trust the strategy and

hope they know more about it than me.

slogans.

Hey, you know, you just, you know, jobs and growth.

Yeah.

So labor needs a three word slogan.

They just keep repeating over and over whether it makes sense or not.

And eventually they'll get the votes.

Yeah.

So basically that they're going to stay with is what labor can be counted on.

Has a reputation for being counted on is health and infrastructure.

And that's what they're going to look at.

And that's what they're going to sell.

And people will buy that because they do have, they do have a reputation for that.

They have the state labor premiers who've done.

Don, just this provided infrastructure done health.

So, so it's a vote loser to try and to, to go into the election sign beginning

to get rid of those concessions.

And we're going to put them back on the tax brackets are on before it'd be a

vote loser and we can't afford to risk and I'll let them have something don't

give them any ammunition, small target.

So in Australia, make sure you don't make core promises.

Yes.

Yep.

Just non-verbal.

Yeah, because if you say we are incapable of selling anything therefore even

try is kind of me admission isn't it.

But if I've got this article from crikey, which says that if you look at

live as internal review of its loss at the last election, when shortened law.

And the review was led by Craig Emison and former south Australian

premier GI where the role, and for example, it didn't single out negative

gearing aligned for losing it, found they were let me just see here.

I'm wondering if this has to do with negative gearing and I

might've got the wrong one here.

Yeah.

Well, here's the argument at what they found in this report?

Was it wasn't the fact that labor had proposed taxes on

people that cost them votes.

It was that labor using the money that had got from the tax cuts or from

the, the introduction of these texts.

But that generated a revenue for labor and labor said, we're going

to use that money in spended on a, B, C, D E F G H I J K items.

And people looked at the spending and said, you guys are just spending too much.

You're not you're not fiscally responsible.

Yes.

So it wasn't so much that they were taking money away from people in terms of

taxes or in terms of things like negative gearing, you know, if they were to remove

negative gearing, it, it was that the money that they got from these proposed

programs, the spending that they were going to do was what actually cost them

votes, ironically, according to this.

So so yeah In the areas where people would be worse off, because that

would be slugged by the labor taxes, their vote increased in those areas.

So the people who were kind of subject to it knew it was a good idea.

So anyway, I'm not a hundred percent convinced that labor shouldn't have

given it a go and just try to explain it.

I think labor is not seen as supporting the worker, the

average worker in the street.

And that's the problem is the liberals, you know, with all

the bullshit about, oh yeah.

W we're supporting you the, the tradies, the hard workers when in fact they

screw them over every chance they can.

And I think labor has lost the chances lost the trust.

Okay.

So there's another article from Crocky, which this leads what

you're saying leads onto this, Joe.

So.

Like who is a typical labor constituent.

So employees in the traditional blue collar occupations technicians and tri

workers, libraries, machinery operators, and drivers, that sort of people, that's

your typical blue collar occupation.

So that worker now accounts for about 23% of all workers that can

pay is two 28% for service workers.

22% for professionals, 9% for managers, contractors in Iona operators, 16%.

So the call for a return to blue collar base ignores the demographic realities.

It focuses attention on a subset of blue collar workers, least likely to support

progressive politics in Australia and elsewhere support for the left is stronger

among women than men among young people than among the old among employees than

among contractors and business owners.

And among the urban, rather than the rural voters, and this is all

from the Australian election stuff.

So it's an interesting relationship between education and income because

education is correlated with income.

It's tricky.

So holding education, constant high income voters are more likely to be

conserved while income is constant.

Let me just say that again, higher income voters are more likely to be

conservative while holding income constant high education is associated

with the strongest support for the lift.

Mostly these effects work in opposite directions with income predominating,

but where they work together, the effects of strong voters with low education.

And high-income thinking small business owners for example, are strongly

conservative by contrast workers in professional occupations with

relatively low pay and status support.

So what does it say about the aspirational blue collar workers

represented as the labor base?

It typically classed as mild breadwinners, typically of middle age and older in

regional areas rather than the inner city they're either self-employed

or they work in the private sector.

The word aspirational is code for high incomes in a focus on less

progressive taxes in every respect.

These characteristics are those associated with the conservative parties.

So what kind of worker would you represent would represent the act are

archetypical member of the labor base?

The analysis above suggests a young woman in a stereotypically female public

sector, occupation requiring post-school education, but with an income well

below the average for full-time work.

So that typical voter would be a gen Zed enrolled nurse

working in a major city hospital.

That would be a typical labor.

So I thought that was interesting, this sort of the way that it applies

between income and education, high income, low education, likely to be

conservative, lowish income, but high education, very likely to be labor.

And what would you consider inherited wealth?

Oh, it's to the I don't know, Joe.

I have to think about it, but if you if you do, if you inherited a

lot and you had a low income, you could still be that conservative.

Oh no, no.

I'm thinking of, sorry.

Millionaires billionaires, whatever they are.

Right.

Son of the Turnbull's for example, is that what you thinking of?

Like, oh, I was thinking more in terms of mining wealth, right?

The, that you would consider well-educated, but also very rich and

very, very right-leaning in terms of almost libertarian talking about bringing

in skilled workers, cheap labor, almost because it states that business interests.

Absolutely.

Yes.

So I I'd say, I, I think the biggest left vote of the middle class.

Yes.

Particularly, according to this, it would be an educated middle-class as opposed

to the middle-class of a tradie or a small business person, small business.

Yeah.

Would not be to be more conservative.

Yep.

So so yeah, I, I think that's, yeah, I think that's a useful analogy.

The Y it's sort of saying that the well-educated professional people in the

side of law nursing range of teaching, you know, they're on an okay-ish wage,

but they're not particularly wealthy by any means, but they're well educated.

That's you live out of there and your blue collar, regional guy may be running

a small business, less educated might be on a same similar income level,

but Less likely to be conservative.

So I think the labor party has real issues.

There's, there's obviously this changes occurred in our politics from the

sixties and seventies as to easily identifying who they're pitching at.

And that was the genius of John Howard in that he managed to grab those tradies

and convinced them that, that he was that, you know, that they shouldn't be

labor, that they were small business people and that they would really be

better off voting for the liberals.

That was the sort of the turning point in the genius of, of Howard.

But to be fair, that sort of has happened around the world.

That's not just an Australia, that's, that's a phenomenon around the world.

The us in particular, but union membership has definitely dropped off.

Yes.

And I think there were a lot of clerical workers who could well be.

Served by a union and they, they just, I don't know unions over here

seem to have a very bad reputation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well that leads under the next article as well.

Do you remember the air traffic control?

Where were you when the air traffic control strikes were happening, Joe?

Probably in the UK.

Right.

I might ask you Shay, you probably weren't even 1981.

What were you doing?

Shape 81.

I was still at primary school.

Okay.

There you go.

So I can remember it.

I was just sort of finishing university and I can actually remember as an

article clock at law firm and one of the lawyers needed to go to

Cannes and because of the strike.

She had to get in some audibly if trip, carrier type airplane, and be

strapped on, in a Hercules to get up to Cannes because they were running

the flights because of the air traffic control strikes at the time.

So, so it used to be a thing shy that around holiday times the air traffic

controllers would go on strike and demand pay increases, and they would

always do it around that time because it was when people really wanted to

use them and go away on a holiday.

And, and so they were particularly well known as a well-paid group,

the air traffic controllers.

So I've got a link to an article here that the murder of the middle class in

the U S began 40 years ago this week, which was on the August, the fifth,

1981 when president Ronald Reagan fired 11,345 air traffic controllers

who were on strike at the time.

Can you imagine.

11,345 and sat.

And they were, you know, like the Australian version,

very militant and strong.

And he borrowed them from ever working again.

And by a few months later, the union in control of them had been had been broken.

De-certified laid in ruins.

And well, bill Clinton lifted Reagan's ban on strikers fewer

than 10% were ever rehired by the federal aviation administration.

So I know in Australia, a very similar thing happened and really most of them

ended up having to work overseas because the Australian government employed a

bunch of overseas air traffic controllers.

And these guys had to end up going over to Dubai and places

like that to, to get a job.

So that was all 40 years ago.

And this article is saying that was really a pivotal moment in labor relations

around the world that a really strong, powerful union just got crunched.

And so up until that time the previous 30 years productivity in America had grown by

a hundred percent and workers pay during that time had grown by a hundred percent.

But after that time productivity grew four times faster than what the pay has grown.

So the link between productivity and worker pay was broken.

So in terms of strikes, generally in the 30 years prior to that event, there were

between 200 and 400 large scale strikes.

And by the time you got to 2008 that's each year, and by the

time we got to 2017, there was.

So unions and people recognized that they, that the government, if, if a

union like the air traffic controllers could be crunched like that, then

what I did anybody else had, because they really had an advantage there.

So so so yeah, a pivotal moment in labor relations.

And I guess if you can't strike and you can't enforce things, then why be a

member of the union then Joe, like you said, union membership has dropped off.

They game of mates, book talks about the neutering of the unions and

argues that, giving them super what's the membership super component.

No, no, no.

Come on industry, super industry, super giving them control of the industry super

has made them part of the establishment.

Now they're less willing to upset the apple cart, right?

Because it affects their bottom line.

Okay.

Suddenly had their powers whittled away, though.

I got a cat actually strike in Australia, Kenya and you're

protected action is somewhat limited.

I don't know the exact details on striking, but I think you're right.

That it's not as nearly as easy as it used to be.

And of course they used to be like one strike by one group and

then there'll be these sympathy strikes by other groups in support.

And that sort of was banned to a large extent where you couldn't have

a sort of a sympathy strike that, you know, sort of, it wasn't a real

strike mentality at different times.

Like You ever heard of a singer called Frank Sinatra Shea.

It came to Australia and it was just in a bad mood.

And in some, in some press conference, he referred to Australian female

journalists as like hookers and broads or something like that.

And and basically the union movement said, well, until you apologize,

you're not getting on a plane to go to any of your concerts.

And they, and the whole union movement basically forced him into a situation

where he had to negotiate with Bob Hawke and do some sort of apology.

But yeah, they basically the transport workers supported the

journalist union and that sort of thing was quite common in those days.

Sad.

The power has gone out of the system for the worker.

That's for sure.

I remember Maggie and Kinnock.

In parliament trading blows, especially about the minors, verbal

blows, but yeah Maggie basically killed the mining industry in the UK.

Some would say that it was actually a good thing.

Moving, moving away from coal.

She was actually a scientist and she believed in the science of global warming.

Was that, and her reason for cracking down on them though.

I don't know.

That was the reason why but I think it didn't help or was,

was another blow against them.

So I certainly remember the, the end of the seventies, the early eighties,

very much being the conservatives cracking down on the power of the unions.

So anyway, this article makes a good case that it was the Was the firing

of the air traffic control was 5th of August, 1991, nearly 40 years ago.

That basically was now in the coffin for the union movement as a powerful force.

And I think there's solid argument for that, but even in the you

know, in the industry of aviation, there is a history of that, Alan

Joyce grounded the flight as well.

Right now the only people that are holding, holding the Fort

for Quantis workers are unions.

There's still a fight to be had.

Definitely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I asked will send me a purpose.

Yeah.

So so yeah, so that's that do you watch much of the Olympics?

Oh, Shay's disappeared.

She's I dunno.

She's yeah.

Her internal links to dropped out.

I must've dropped down.

So Charlie, did you watch much of the Olympics or the sports fan?

Right.

Fair enough.

There was some interesting moments because I subscribed to the New York

times the, there was some strange things going on in the New York times

in terms of coverage of the Olympics.

And one of the really strange things was the way they were obsessed with

China and the U S in terms of the metal race and to zoom that in a bit.

Yeah.

No, hang on.

I've done enough.

I can, essentially, in every metal count I've ever seen for Olympic

games, you would always count countries by rank them by the

number of gold medals that they had.

But the New York times insisted on doing an overall metal count

as what would count, put you in the top number one position.

So they were putting the U S.

As, as on top of the metal count with 73 metals, as opposed to China on 69.

But at that stage, China had 32 gold medals in the USA, only 24.

Like it was just a ridiculous way of, of, of showing the metal count.

And and the other thing that they were doing over there was even when I was doing

a little graph, showing the middles as circles and they would actually make the

Chinese circles smaller so that it didn't look like their lead was as big as it was.

All sorts of strange auntie like just something as simple as the Olympics, anti

China stuff that they were doing, there was a young gymnast and you know, say with

news Corp, it would say China's Hong Chan Kwan who had 14 years old was top of the

competition on Thursday has not cracked a smile despite her impeccable performance.

So this was sort of referring to.

That's sort of the Chinese is just almost robots without emotion.

And, but meanwhile, you didn't have to look too far and you could find a

lovely photo of her smiling beautifully.

Like it was just the why they wanted to portray the Chinese

as, as unemotional robots.

And then also they would say, you know, the same magazine the New York times

would say the Chinese sports machine, single goal, the most goals at any cost

basically criticizing the Chinese for just being a, a sports machine just

trying to accumulate gold medals then.

But at the same time, they would run an article on Britain.

Britain's huge investment in summer Olympics sports pays off and that was a

positive one because but like the Brits.

So just shameless sort of misrepresentation of China.

Remember whichever one of those.

Seventies, eighties Olympics where the whole Russian team

basically were caught doping.

Yes.

Yeah.

If you remember the Soviets they had a huge machine to get their teams to

the Olympics and win at all costs.

Yes.

Because they were all in the army.

Yeah.

Yes, indeed.

Yep.

So, and, and, you know, obviously cheating, but it's just let's

just kind of help themselves the American price in bagging, China,

even when it came to the Olympics.

So, so that was that article he where gold, giant new Mount corporation.

So big gun, gold miner, exed, one of its most senior executives for

refusing to abide by the company's COVID-19 vaccination policy.

So he was an American guy and an anti-vaxxer and.

He was a very senior executive.

And I said, well, if you're not going to get the VAX nation, then your

set, anybody disagree with that as a policy or SPC did that as well.

Who's SPC the fruit cannery.

Oh, okay.

Yes.

For, well, for all of them.

Yeah.

They, he gives him, yeah.

If you come into the factory, you, I think it's not only production line workers.

I think it was even visitors, contractors.

You need to be vaccinated to come onsite.

Yep.

So that'll be interesting.

Telstra have said they're giving $200 to every employee who gets vaccinated.

Right.

So they've said we're not going to mandate it, but here's some strong encouragement.

Okay.

And what if you've already been vaccinated, right?

Yeah.

As long as you've got a vaccination certificate, they'll give that and they're

keeping it open until the end of December.

Because they said they recognize that there is a shortage

of vaccines at the moment.

Right.

Okay.

And obviously this is what's happening in Europe with people wanting to get into

clubs and festivals and things, having some proof wonder what they can create.

That's actually sort of fraud proof.

Yes.

Short of a, a government website where you could look, somebody

up, see a photograph of them.

The second you have a document on the person's phone, it's four doable.

Yes.

Have you had heard about the forged Cove in check-in app?

Shies Chamie.

Okay.

So for people who don't like the idea of letting the government know where

they've been, they actually able to get this app that looks like the COVID

check-in app, and they will use it as they enter a premise and scan the QR code.

And on the screen, it will come up with the normal, congratulations, shy.

You've checked in at XYZ ed bakery or supermarket or wherever you

happen to be looks exactly like the real thing, but it's a fake app.

So you'll could flash it to anybody there who wanted to check that you had been

doing the right thing, but in fact, none of the data is going to the government.

So that's, what's going on out there in terms of fake checking apps.

Cause they like some of the code on stuff I've been looking at.

They've already had a look at how they're going to get around

the vaccination thing as well.

And it seems pretty amateur to may, but obviously they've

developed their skills since then.

So that's a worry.

Yeah.

So be interesting to see how it happens.

Like in Queensland, we can't even get our driver's license electronically.

I've got to still carry a physical card.

I know in new south Wales is I can do it electronically.

That's the problem is the government hasn't made a law that says it's

illegal to ask for the information.

And I believe the police have actually asked for COVID tracking information.

Yep.

And this is the problem.

If they wanted, if they were being serious about it, if they said this

is purely for health reasons, there's no reason for them not to introduce

a law that makes it illegal for those records to be used for anything else.

And I understand the police always want assistance and your

lives are going to be saved by.

We always draw a balance between the two.

And I think this is one case where we have to say this database is not for mining.

It's purely to be used for public health and nothing else.

And that at least would restore some trust.

Yes.

McGowan did it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hey, brought in.

Cause they liked it to the press.

The police used the data for catching a crook and it got late to the presser, a

gown really swiftly just put a new laws to say our lay our life, a health raisins.

Yeah.

I think it's critically important that we do that.

You know, you're not going to assign it to everybody, but I think a lot of

people it's, it's it sends a sign that the government is willing to tolerate it.

And do you remember me talking about sort of, ah, Casual.

Well, part-time casual workers who are on regular shifts being treated as full-time

workers and being entitled to the sort of Menulog tri-fold delivery was a, yeah,

there was the dev deliver route one.

And there's also beans, some mining workers as well.

Who, so basically, if you had an employee who wasn't called a full-time employee,

but basically was given the shot the same shift every week, quite often, Monday to

Friday nine to five, and really treated otherwise like a full-time employee.

Then there was a decision by the full court of the federal court that

said, okay, that sort of employee needs to be treated as a full-time

employee and is therefore entitled to the same SIG PI the same.

Superannuation the same long service leave, et cetera.

And, and this is why I tell people don't, you know, mamas, don't let your babies

grow up to be lawyers because a full court of the federal court says treat them like

a full-time worker, what the guys are getting into that position and not dummy.

It's like, and they've really thought really hard when

they've made the decision.

Then it goes to the high court and the high court overturns.

It says, now you got that wrong.

You've got Lauren.

It was so tough as a lawyer to try and working out with any confidence,

whether you're gonna win or not.

And it's just tough.

Don't do it.

Don't be, don't become a lawyer if you think about it.

I, I think, you know, historically workers had no rights.

And the rights were brought in to protect the workers and then suddenly we've gone.

Well, they're not really a worker.

They're this special class of worker, which gets no rights again.

Yes.

And so what's the point of having rights for any workers.

If now you have this class of workers who have no rights.

Yes.

Can you just, if you can just get around it by saying, are you an independent

contractor or something like that?

So we don't have to abide by all these rules.

It just seems to be a loophole that needs to be closed.

Yeah.

So anyway, labor, industrial relations, spokesman, tiny Berg.

So the judgment's effect was limited.

As the government had teamed up with one nation to pass changes that

extinguished the rights of casual workers.

The good news shy is that alive, a government will actually do something.

It seems it will overturn the government scheme, ending the roads and

restoring rights to work as according to Tony Burke, there's something,

but it weren't scared on that one.

They were happy to go to an election with that.

Not scared off secure works, secure work.

That's all about and good for them.

Cause can I make it just completely baseless assertion?

It does seem to be a patent of winning days, industrial relation court

cases, and then losing them on appeal.

It happened at Quantas with the mismanagement of job caper.

I went through for other examples, but ran out of time.

And I just don't think like between the fair work commission and some of the court

systems that they really have any taste.

Yep.

We have made wage theft illegal here in Queensland and I, in my line of work,

I regularly get follow-up calls around young workers who are still waiting

on orders for their employers to pay them back in excess of like 18 grand.

And that's from two years ago.

So we have a wage theft law, but we still haven't worked out how

to enforce it at work commission.

In the meantime is just like, when are you 10 grand?

If you're 21, actually.

And granted is a huge amount of money.

You can buy a lot of avocado on toast.

Yeah.

So anyway, that's my little rant.

This is one of my things I get most ragey a bit.

Yep.

Good point in the chat room.

I think stopping them, standing outside with a sandwich board going this person

was found to have stolen 18,000 in wages.

Well a lot of these businesses banned them.

So there's a few news reports of people who are seriously pissed off and didn't

get as good outcome or consequently are still Whiting, try to try to shame them.

But when you're going in individually and not with your union there is no going into

the shop, just standing outside the shop.

Yeah.

Well I might suggest that next time, but yeah, I don't think you would.

Well, the customer's going, oh, oh, I don't know that I want to support

a business that does that to their workers, but if you've got it wrong,

then you're in, you've got a problem.

I think if, I think if a tribunal has found that they owe you the weight.

Yeah.

And then a high court says actually they don't, meanwhile, you'd been

out the shop sort of defining them, then you've got a problem.

So that's one of the problems.

Hey, in the chat room, just scrolling back as we're getting towards the

end Bronwyn said, how about the waterfront dispute in the nineties?

That was an example of business effectively attempting to replace

its unionized workforce with a, non-union not unionized one.

That's true.

Patrick stevedoring.

Back in the day, I'm just thinking fleet street and then move out to whopping.

Was it London?

Yes.

Essentially built up factory in secret, which is more or

less almost fully automated.

Yes.

Yeah.

And the same with the warfees really, it was about changing to a system which

used those giant cranes and less in even more automated crimes, I think.

And a lot less people involved.

So.

So that was an example as well of unions losing their power.

What else do we got here?

Can't get through all the comments, but thank you for your

comments in the chat room guys.

I reckon that might sort of do us shy.

You'll be in danger of the shark tank if Landon hard bottom finds out that we've

finished nine minutes early, but I think it can be excused given my workload.

Now next week, COVID lockdowns permitting.

I'm going to be in Cairns in.

So if I've managed to pre-record something, I will

upload it if there's there.

But there's a good chance.

There won't be anything.

I don't know, D listener.

So I don't know if there'll be a show next week, but the definitely

be something the week after.

So yeah, not sure.

If you want us to talk about something sent through some suggestions actually

next week I'm supposed to be doing would, it would be normally an interview

or a book view type thing anyway.

So you guys will see in two weeks time, whatever happens next week and dear

listener, if if there's not a show next week, it's just because I'm relaxing

on a beach somewhere off cans and Mrs.

Fister and I are enjoying life.

Isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lockdowns permitting.

All right.

Well, thank you in the chat room.

Thank you for the people who sent support about ER, strange

things that I'd been up to lately.

We won't know a result on that for a few weeks, most likely.

And the whole satanic thing.

We'll see how much notice do you get when he's ready?

Reveal the judgment.

I have no idea.

Like so many of these things about this whole thing, I have no idea.

So I actually sent them an email today to the associates saying, I'm not

going to be around during this period.

If a decision comes out and you're expecting me there, I'm sorry.

I won't be there.

I'm apologizing in advance.

So I don't know.

It depends because if, for example, he decides in our favor on the

declaration, then his judgment will be relatively short and easy.

But if he decides against us, then he's got to deal with a whole bunch

of judicial review questions, which will be quite complicated and lengthy.

So so yeah, it just, who knows, who knows?

I don't know.

I've sort of like, I, it was not, how long is it going to take him, but just,

are they going to warn you two days in advance that I don't even know.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I just I'll let you know, as soon as I know something.

Okay.

Delist now we're out of here.

Thanks in the chat room for watching and maybe next week, if

not, definitely two weeks time.

Talk to you then.

Bye for now.

Bye.

That is a good night from him.