1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,960 Keith Lewis: Welcome to Advantage over the podcast for the rugby referee community or 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,560 simply those in rugby who want to know more about refereeing. 3 00:00:06,560 --> 00:00:08,280 Your host today is Keith Lewis. 4 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:09,040 Are you ready? 5 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:10,160 Time on 6 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:17,160 Keith Lewis: so joining me on the podcast today is Andrew Rowland from Rugby Southland 7 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:18,720 down in New Zealand. 8 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:20,840 We'll have a chat about what that means before 9 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,560 but until recently Andrew was chair of Rugby Southland Referees. 10 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,240 But he has just handed the reins over to a new chair down there. 11 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:33,740 But in his time as chair he kind of led and grew the referee organization down there. 12 00:00:34,140 --> 00:00:38,940 And one of the many initiatives that he oversaw is one that I saw not that long ago 13 00:00:38,940 --> 00:00:43,020 and wanted to delve into and that's about the thorny issue or the troublesome issue around 14 00:00:43,020 --> 00:00:45,820 the world of how do we attract and recruit new referees. 15 00:00:46,140 --> 00:00:47,540 So they've done some great stuff down there. 16 00:00:47,540 --> 00:00:48,980 So we'll have a chat with that. 17 00:00:48,980 --> 00:00:50,380 So thanks for joining us, Andrew. 18 00:00:50,860 --> 00:00:52,220 Andrew Rowland: Thanks for the opportunity, Keith. 19 00:00:52,220 --> 00:00:53,100 Much appreciated. 20 00:00:53,420 --> 00:00:58,900 Keith Lewis: Cool. So you guys call it your referee of the future scholarship program and 21 00:00:58,900 --> 00:01:04,390 it's all about attracting and retraining match officials and especially or initially 22 00:01:04,390 --> 00:01:05,750 targeting young match officials. 23 00:01:05,750 --> 00:01:06,870 That's what I want to get into. 24 00:01:07,190 --> 00:01:11,670 But obviously most listeners to the to the Advantage over podcast are probably up north 25 00:01:11,670 --> 00:01:12,190 or elsewhere. 26 00:01:12,190 --> 00:01:14,230 So let's just paint the scene of where you are 27 00:01:14,630 --> 00:01:18,510 and the geography and the rugby landscape of Southland. 28 00:01:18,510 --> 00:01:20,070 So where are we speaking to today? 29 00:01:20,870 --> 00:01:23,350 Andrew Rowland: Okay, so we are probably. 30 00:01:23,590 --> 00:01:25,910 I'd almost hesitate to say that we are 31 00:01:25,910 --> 00:01:31,870 probably the southernmost rugby playing province in the world. 32 00:01:32,430 --> 00:01:39,870 So right at the bottom of the south island of New Zealand and our province, 33 00:01:42,270 --> 00:01:43,870 it's actually reasonably sparse. 34 00:01:45,550 --> 00:01:46,110 Gee, 35 00:01:46,430 --> 00:01:46,790 probably. 36 00:01:46,790 --> 00:01:49,910 I'm probably an hour and a, probably an hour 37 00:01:49,910 --> 00:01:55,150 and a half one way trip to our furthest point and that you could probably draw a circle 38 00:01:55,150 --> 00:01:57,550 around the province and, and that's about where you'd. 39 00:01:57,550 --> 00:01:58,830 Where we'd travel to. 40 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:01,320 Poss. Yeah, that. 41 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:03,080 That would probably be a cover it. 42 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:05,240 Keith Lewis: The big cities down there. 43 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:06,240 Invercargill. 44 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:06,600 Andrew Rowland: No, 45 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,000 no, no. Invercargill is, is the city. 46 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,720 Lots of little rural towns. 47 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:19,120 So the likes of Gore, Tiana, Winton, you know these names probably don't mean anything but 48 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:23,640 these are, you know, towns of, you know they could, there could be 10000 in them. 49 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:29,950 So we have a, we have a, a blend of metro rugby. 50 00:02:30,910 --> 00:02:36,270 Our premier division is made up of predominantly. 51 00:02:36,750 --> 00:02:37,270 Well this. 52 00:02:37,270 --> 00:02:41,830 There's six teams and four of them would be 53 00:02:41,830 --> 00:02:42,710 regarded as metro. 54 00:02:42,710 --> 00:02:43,310 There's probably, 55 00:02:43,710 --> 00:02:46,910 there's one that sits a wee bit in between and then there's definitely a country team. 56 00:02:47,870 --> 00:02:54,240 The majority of our division One and two would be country based. 57 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:56,720 So. Yeah, country footy. 58 00:02:58,000 --> 00:02:59,040 Yeah, so that's. 59 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:00,400 So yeah, we have Premier. 60 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:05,960 We have Premier men's and then Senior woman's and then we have those other two divisions and 61 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:06,880 then we get into our. 62 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,240 We have president's grade and then we get into our age groups. 63 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:11,600 So down to. 64 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:12,800 Yeah. 65 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,400 Keith Lewis: And the number of clubs that you facilitate would be. 66 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:18,560 Andrew Rowland: Oh, good question. 67 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,100 I think there's something like clubs in 68 00:03:22,100 --> 00:03:22,660 southland. 69 00:03:22,660 --> 00:03:24,780 There's probably 30 odd. 70 00:03:25,340 --> 00:03:28,260 Keith Lewis: Yeah. I guess scale into the referee society side as well. 71 00:03:28,260 --> 00:03:31,020 So what's the, what's the, the refereeing approach? 72 00:03:33,020 --> 00:03:39,420 Andrew Rowland: Yeah. So not, not all of those clubs feature in every grade and you know, 73 00:03:39,420 --> 00:03:40,940 there are, there are pockets of. 74 00:03:40,940 --> 00:03:43,300 Pockets of clubs like you'll have the likes of 75 00:03:43,300 --> 00:03:47,180 Gore or Eastern Southland which is, you know, probably a, 76 00:03:48,150 --> 00:03:49,270 almost a subset of. 77 00:03:49,270 --> 00:03:51,510 Of Southland geographically. 78 00:03:51,510 --> 00:03:57,430 And there'll be sort of 12 clubs within that, within that quite condensed radius. 79 00:03:59,110 --> 00:04:03,350 And then for us it's about making sure that we're putting. 80 00:04:04,790 --> 00:04:09,990 That we're putting the best referee that is suited and qualified on, on those games. 81 00:04:10,790 --> 00:04:17,980 And sometimes that means that games whilst there are referees refereeing and grades 82 00:04:17,980 --> 00:04:18,340 below. 83 00:04:19,140 --> 00:04:22,660 The reason why they're referring in those grades is because they're not quite. 84 00:04:22,820 --> 00:04:28,580 It's not the right game for them and we don't want to set people up to fail just to have a 85 00:04:28,580 --> 00:04:32,580 referee on the ground to keep everybody else happy. 86 00:04:32,900 --> 00:04:34,660 That was basically where we got to. 87 00:04:35,380 --> 00:04:37,780 Keith Lewis: And so Rugby south and referees is. 88 00:04:37,860 --> 00:04:39,720 What's your membership level look like? 89 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,560 Andrew Rowland: It's been reasonably steady over the last two or three years. 90 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,240 Just a moment, I got a couple of figures here. 91 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:49,880 So. 92 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,292 Yeah, so 2025, 93 00:04:54,668 --> 00:05:00,760 2025 we had 56 referees of. 94 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:01,600 Sorry. 95 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:07,480 Actually we had 59, 60, 63 referees. 96 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:11,280 Sorry, four of which were females and 57 which were males. 97 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:18,160 And then 2026 we have 61 referees. 98 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,080 55 are male and six are female. 99 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,640 Keith Lewis: And you also run an associate referee program as well? 100 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,640 Andrew Rowland: With what we might, some people up 101 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,480 Keith Lewis: here might call them club referees, I guess. 102 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:31,520 Andrew Rowland: Yeah, 103 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:32,880 sounds like it. 104 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:34,840 Those numbers are included in our. 105 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:36,640 In those numbers that I gave you before. 106 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:38,800 But if I go back to 2025, 107 00:05:39,980 --> 00:05:49,100 we had 49 fully registered referees and 14 associates this year. 108 00:05:49,260 --> 00:05:59,020 Thus far we have 51 fully registered referees and two associate referees. 109 00:06:00,700 --> 00:06:05,020 We have just recently run a series of associate referee courses. 110 00:06:05,020 --> 00:06:10,860 So I would hope that that number increases. 111 00:06:10,860 --> 00:06:11,460 And those, 112 00:06:12,180 --> 00:06:16,980 those associate referees tend to operate more in the age grade, the lower age grade space. 113 00:06:17,300 --> 00:06:19,180 And that's only just kicked off for us. 114 00:06:19,180 --> 00:06:22,660 They had grading day Just sad day, just been 115 00:06:22,660 --> 00:06:23,060 so. 116 00:06:24,500 --> 00:06:24,980 Yeah, 117 00:06:25,540 --> 00:06:26,260 we'll see. 118 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:27,140 Watch this space. 119 00:06:28,180 --> 00:06:31,060 Keith Lewis: So that's, that's, that's kind of sets out this, this, the scale. 120 00:06:31,300 --> 00:06:35,860 And like every referee association around the world, we're kind of always thinking about 121 00:06:35,860 --> 00:06:42,120 where the new talent's coming from and how we get to jump ship into refereeing or to look at 122 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,320 refereeing as a route in. 123 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,960 Tell us a little bit about the thought process that sat behind the scholarship program. 124 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:50,320 Andrew Rowland: Yeah, 125 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:51,840 absolutely, Keith. 126 00:06:53,840 --> 00:06:57,040 So I guess during my tenure as chairman, 127 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:04,480 we always do our post season review and we were finding that our numbers were relatively 128 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:04,880 stable, 129 00:07:07,060 --> 00:07:11,140 yet there were new competitions coming online, which was putting extra pressure. 130 00:07:12,100 --> 00:07:18,900 We were having to shift some competitions or ask for competitions to be shifted from the 131 00:07:18,900 --> 00:07:20,900 traditional Saturday time slots to, 132 00:07:21,379 --> 00:07:21,940 you know, 133 00:07:22,580 --> 00:07:24,660 Thursday nights, Friday nights, 134 00:07:26,180 --> 00:07:30,980 things like that, to help us be able to service these games. 135 00:07:36,500 --> 00:07:41,780 Our recruitment had probably been a little bit hit and miss in the past. 136 00:07:43,060 --> 00:07:45,940 We were just sort of relying upon word of mouth, 137 00:07:46,580 --> 00:07:49,380 you know, tap on the shoulder, that sort of thing. 138 00:07:49,540 --> 00:07:49,940 So, 139 00:07:51,220 --> 00:07:57,260 you know, as we were talking before, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing 140 00:07:57,260 --> 00:08:01,620 over and over again and hoping for a different outcome, which we were probably guilty of. 141 00:08:02,780 --> 00:08:06,340 So yeah, we, we decided to try and do something a little bit different. 142 00:08:06,340 --> 00:08:15,580 And we'd seen a couple of different iterations that New Zealand rugby had, had tried with 143 00:08:16,460 --> 00:08:17,180 some success. 144 00:08:18,540 --> 00:08:23,020 Some of the listeners might have heard of Glenn Jackson, who's currently the Fijian Drua 145 00:08:23,020 --> 00:08:27,260 coach, but he had a quite a decorated playing career both here in New Zealand and, 146 00:08:27,570 --> 00:08:28,370 and over in the uk. 147 00:08:28,370 --> 00:08:30,570 And then when he finished there, he pretty 148 00:08:30,570 --> 00:08:30,850 much, 149 00:08:31,410 --> 00:08:36,450 I think he hung up his playing jersey one year and what might have even been one Saturday 150 00:08:37,490 --> 00:08:38,530 whistle the next Saturday. 151 00:08:39,970 --> 00:08:40,770 Yeah, he did. 152 00:08:40,770 --> 00:08:43,090 And, and within very, very short time, 153 00:08:43,410 --> 00:08:46,770 you know, he was refereeing test rugby and, and doing it very well. 154 00:08:46,850 --> 00:08:52,530 So we sort of thought, looked at that and they're doing it in the female space as well, 155 00:08:52,530 --> 00:08:53,970 as we discussed before, Keith. 156 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:55,920 So we thought, well, 157 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,720 you know, what have we got to lose? 158 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:05,520 Rather have tried something and failed than not to have tried at all. 159 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:09,040 We were also very fortunate that we got a, 160 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,400 we had a funder or a sponsor come on board. 161 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,680 And just through the conversation, 162 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:21,760 the result was that they actually were prepared to do some funding for us and they 163 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:28,400 wanted it tagged specifically for recruitment rather than, you know, just going into the 164 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:29,200 general coffers. 165 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,080 So that was, that was probably the catalyst for, for us to get really serious about these, 166 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,120 these conversations. 167 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,600 And yeah, the, the result. 168 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,000 We're also very lucky that down here we've got 169 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:52,300 another community group that has run sort of scholarship programs in the sporting space 170 00:09:52,540 --> 00:09:56,620 for, for an extended period of time both playing and coaching. 171 00:09:56,620 --> 00:09:59,540 And I was lucky enough to go through that. 172 00:09:59,540 --> 00:10:01,540 So I sort of had a little bit of an insight as 173 00:10:01,540 --> 00:10:03,980 to what these sorts of programs could offer. 174 00:10:05,260 --> 00:10:06,300 And so I said, well, 175 00:10:07,420 --> 00:10:11,100 literally, why don't we give this a crack? What have we got to lose? 176 00:10:11,340 --> 00:10:15,230 Keith Lewis: So what is the offer? What are you offering to Interested? 177 00:10:15,470 --> 00:10:16,030 Andrew Rowland: Yeah, so, 178 00:10:16,590 --> 00:10:23,670 yeah, so what we did, a lot of it was actually more about giving these young athletes, or 179 00:10:23,670 --> 00:10:25,470 giving these athletes, not necessarily young, 180 00:10:26,750 --> 00:10:33,550 the opportunity to go through a selection process because a lot of them haven't. 181 00:10:34,270 --> 00:10:36,430 And so whether they were successful or not, 182 00:10:36,990 --> 00:10:43,320 we hope that they would walk away from, from the process with something, you know, 183 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,040 something that would help them, whether it be in life or on the paddock. 184 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,760 We started off with a focus on young match officials. 185 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:03,200 But coming back to our geography, you know, a lot of down here in Southland, we export a lot 186 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:10,090 of our talent off to university and the odd one drifts back but for the majority and they, 187 00:11:10,090 --> 00:11:13,610 you know, they spread their wings and they keep on going, which is really cool. 188 00:11:14,970 --> 00:11:18,250 So we thought, well, okay, if we're investing in them, we probably want to get something 189 00:11:18,490 --> 00:11:18,890 back. 190 00:11:18,890 --> 00:11:20,610 So that was where we ended up sort of 191 00:11:20,610 --> 00:11:23,290 splitting our, I suppose you could say splitting our votes. 192 00:11:24,570 --> 00:11:27,290 And of our five recipients this year, 193 00:11:28,890 --> 00:11:33,930 we've got two of them are secondary school age, 194 00:11:34,990 --> 00:11:46,590 two of them are ex players and one is still a current player and university age and in the 195 00:11:46,590 --> 00:11:47,230 female space. 196 00:11:48,590 --> 00:12:01,270 So what these successful recipients receive is aside from a financial contribution which it's 197 00:12:01,270 --> 00:12:06,790 encouraged that it is used for rugby purposes, whether that be a new pair of boots or a gym 198 00:12:06,790 --> 00:12:08,870 membership or whatever it might be. 199 00:12:09,830 --> 00:12:18,550 They also get additional tutelage and additional training and development sessions 200 00:12:19,750 --> 00:12:23,910 over and above our weekly, you know, our normal weekly association ones. 201 00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:28,130 And then that's with the likes of mental skills, 202 00:12:29,250 --> 00:12:30,610 sports chaplaincy. 203 00:12:31,650 --> 00:12:33,490 We've got a dietitian coming in, 204 00:12:34,770 --> 00:12:35,570 we've got access, 205 00:12:36,530 --> 00:12:41,090 they will have access to our local npc. 206 00:12:41,330 --> 00:12:41,890 So our. 207 00:12:41,970 --> 00:12:45,330 Sorry, our MPC coaches and training. 208 00:12:45,330 --> 00:12:48,610 So that's our, our Southland Stags they will 209 00:12:48,610 --> 00:12:48,850 get. 210 00:12:49,090 --> 00:12:51,130 Keith Lewis: That's your competition, isn't it? 211 00:12:51,130 --> 00:12:51,410 Andrew Rowland: Really? 212 00:12:51,890 --> 00:12:54,210 Yeah. Yep. That's our national competition team. 213 00:12:54,210 --> 00:12:59,150 So they'll, they'll be able to go along and observe them training and you pick the brains 214 00:12:59,150 --> 00:13:01,030 of, of coaches and bits and pieces. 215 00:13:01,030 --> 00:13:02,910 So that's, that's pretty awesome. 216 00:13:03,710 --> 00:13:11,350 They have one on one coaching and you know, there's an expectation for them that they're 217 00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:16,350 Doing game plans and which you wouldn't necessarily expect a first year referee to be 218 00:13:16,350 --> 00:13:17,190 doing game plans. 219 00:13:17,190 --> 00:13:19,950 But you know, we've, we've selected these, 220 00:13:20,750 --> 00:13:27,020 these said individuals for a reason because we think we can effectively fast track them, you 221 00:13:27,020 --> 00:13:27,300 know, 222 00:13:27,860 --> 00:13:31,500 and that they've shown, you know, the resilience that we're looking for. 223 00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:32,740 So we can sort of, 224 00:13:33,940 --> 00:13:34,500 yeah. 225 00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:38,180 Test their middle a little bit earlier than what we normally would. 226 00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:47,740 So yeah, and, and that's, that's pretty much what, what they get as a result of their 227 00:13:47,740 --> 00:13:48,500 scholarship. 228 00:13:50,180 --> 00:13:51,780 The scholarship is on a, 229 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,520 it's on a year by year basis for a maximum of three years. 230 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,240 Keith Lewis: So just, just if I just pick up on the financial side of things because so 231 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,960 many, many countries up, up here in England and most of the, the northern sides referees, 232 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,360 we don't get any, 233 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,040 we get expenses, but we don't get paid. 234 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:11,880 There's no match fees involved until you get 235 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,080 to the, the sort of national end of the game. 236 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:15,400 Is that the same there? 237 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,920 So is this, is this a different approach to kind of. 238 00:14:18,530 --> 00:14:20,130 And do you think that changes things? 239 00:14:21,090 --> 00:14:22,130 Andrew Rowland: Yeah, good question. 240 00:14:23,090 --> 00:14:24,130 We are the same. 241 00:14:25,650 --> 00:14:30,330 It's funny because over my career I've always joked with people when they say, do you get 242 00:14:30,330 --> 00:14:32,290 paid? It's like, no, I have to pay. 243 00:14:32,370 --> 00:14:36,050 I have to pay a sub for the honor of getting abused every weekend. 244 00:14:37,570 --> 00:14:43,010 So it's interesting because a lot of the sports down here, whether it be basketball, 245 00:14:43,170 --> 00:14:43,810 touch, 246 00:14:44,290 --> 00:14:44,770 netball, 247 00:14:45,490 --> 00:14:48,210 the teams actually pay. 248 00:14:48,850 --> 00:14:49,410 Yeah. 249 00:14:49,890 --> 00:14:50,610 Match officials, 250 00:14:51,410 --> 00:14:55,170 whether it's 10 bucks a game or whatever it is, 251 00:14:55,490 --> 00:14:56,930 both teams contribute. 252 00:14:57,810 --> 00:15:03,130 Rugby is one of very few that don't get paid at club level. 253 00:15:03,130 --> 00:15:05,170 Yes, we get expenses, we get mileage, 254 00:15:06,210 --> 00:15:07,730 but that's all we get. 255 00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:13,020 Yeah, we, we felt we wanted to make this, 256 00:15:14,140 --> 00:15:20,300 you know, we wanted this to, to almost be a little bit elitism. 257 00:15:20,780 --> 00:15:23,980 Yeah. So we wanted people to want to be in that. 258 00:15:26,140 --> 00:15:29,180 You're asking someone that's come through old school, 259 00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:30,540 you know, for me, 260 00:15:31,020 --> 00:15:33,900 no amount of money would change whether I do or don't referee. 261 00:15:34,140 --> 00:15:35,460 I do it for the love of it. 262 00:15:35,460 --> 00:15:38,140 And I would suggest that probably for the 263 00:15:38,140 --> 00:15:41,820 majority of our association that that answer would be exactly the same. 264 00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:43,020 I haven't. 265 00:15:43,980 --> 00:15:48,020 In fact, we had one of our, one of our scholarship recipients, he goes, I don't want 266 00:15:48,020 --> 00:15:48,460 the money. 267 00:15:48,780 --> 00:15:49,260 Keith Lewis: Yeah. 268 00:15:49,740 --> 00:15:50,780 Andrew Rowland: So that was, 269 00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:54,420 Keith Lewis: I did some, that, that is interesting. 270 00:15:54,420 --> 00:15:55,260 I did some study job. 271 00:15:55,260 --> 00:15:56,300 We're not talking about big money, we're 272 00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:59,900 talking about 500 New Zealand, 500 bucks 273 00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:00,940 Andrew Rowland: a year a season. 274 00:16:00,940 --> 00:16:03,100 Keith Lewis: Just to save you reading for your calculated listener. 275 00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:04,540 It's about 200 sterling, 276 00:16:05,180 --> 00:16:07,700 300 US or 400 Australian dollars. 277 00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:10,140 So like it's, it's a decent pair of boots a 278 00:16:10,140 --> 00:16:10,820 couple of times a year. 279 00:16:10,820 --> 00:16:12,500 As you say membership, a gym membership. 280 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:13,020 So it's, 281 00:16:13,580 --> 00:16:16,300 it's not, it's not a semi professional contract or anything? 282 00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:18,540 Andrew Rowland: No, definitely not, no. 283 00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:21,540 Keith Lewis: So that's, that's a really interesting approach. 284 00:16:21,540 --> 00:16:24,220 So how's that going? Is it this is the first time you've run that 285 00:16:24,220 --> 00:16:24,780 or is this. 286 00:16:25,260 --> 00:16:26,940 Andrew Rowland: This is the first time we've run it. 287 00:16:28,220 --> 00:16:38,400 We had 12 applicants and the qualifying criteria is you had to be either. 288 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,160 You could only have refereed a maximum of one year. 289 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:49,440 So two of our recipients are effectively second year referees. 290 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,880 And yeah, aside from that, it was just. 291 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:56,440 They went through quite a rigorous, there was 292 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,120 quite a process where they had to submit an application. 293 00:17:00,670 --> 00:17:04,390 You know, we looked through the applications, we selected a short list, then they had to go 294 00:17:04,390 --> 00:17:06,990 through and they went before an interview panel. 295 00:17:07,790 --> 00:17:10,990 There was three of us on that interview panel. 296 00:17:10,990 --> 00:17:12,630 So there was the chairman of the board, which 297 00:17:12,630 --> 00:17:13,310 was myself, 298 00:17:14,110 --> 00:17:20,510 there was our appointments officer and then there was our referee manager or. 299 00:17:21,310 --> 00:17:22,590 Yeah, referee manager, 300 00:17:24,190 --> 00:17:24,590 yeah. 301 00:17:24,590 --> 00:17:27,350 So. And that was quite an intensive process. 302 00:17:28,070 --> 00:17:29,110 Yeah, we didn't, 303 00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:34,030 we didn't take any prisoners because that was, this is all part of the scholarship. 304 00:17:34,030 --> 00:17:39,510 Like if scholarship is in our eyes, you are effectively the best of the best. 305 00:17:39,830 --> 00:17:43,350 Yeah. So we need to make sure of that. 306 00:17:45,670 --> 00:17:47,350 Yeah. So. And we, 307 00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:50,310 yeah, we settled on, we didn't really. 308 00:17:50,550 --> 00:17:53,350 Well, we had a number based on finances and 309 00:17:53,350 --> 00:17:55,740 that number was clearly higher than 5. 310 00:17:56,700 --> 00:17:57,980 But 5 is what we, 311 00:17:58,780 --> 00:18:03,300 what we decided on because we certainly, we didn't want to just be handing them out to hit 312 00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:03,660 a number. 313 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:12,700 We wanted these to be something special and we wanted people to aspire to that level. 314 00:18:14,060 --> 00:18:15,340 So. And I think, 315 00:18:15,740 --> 00:18:17,100 I think we've achieved that. 316 00:18:18,220 --> 00:18:20,950 Keith Lewis: Can I ask just what about the other seven? 317 00:18:21,190 --> 00:18:23,510 Do, do you think obviously that you had 12 applicants? 318 00:18:23,510 --> 00:18:24,910 Five, five got them. 319 00:18:24,910 --> 00:18:26,430 What of the other do. 320 00:18:26,430 --> 00:18:30,310 Does that mean we lose seven people who are wanting to be the game or have they just. 321 00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:32,550 They go through the normal society process? 322 00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:36,069 Andrew Rowland: They go through the normal association process. 323 00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:39,270 Of those seven, 324 00:18:43,030 --> 00:18:45,370 I would say four, 325 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,680 five of them have gone through the normal association process. 326 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:52,480 Rightly or wrongly, 327 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:58,000 if they didn't get the scholarship and didn't referee as a result, 328 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,360 did they want to referee in the first place? 329 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,480 So are they the type of person that we want or need? 330 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,800 Keith Lewis: Yeah, that's a good provocation, isn't it? 331 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:08,760 But it's an interesting debate. 332 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,440 People think, well, actually, are we therefore 333 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,360 have we lost two People that we could have had via a different route. 334 00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:16,600 But as you said before, we've got to test these things out and, and see with those. 335 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,880 And if they want to, if those seven individuals want to referee, they'll still be 336 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:21,560 refereeing. 337 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:22,640 Andrew Rowland: Yeah, that's right. 338 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,640 If they genuinely, if they had that genuine 339 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:30,320 desire, they would follow through with it regardless of whether they got a scholarship 340 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:30,640 or not. 341 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:31,000 So. 342 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:31,560 Yeah. 343 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,560 Keith Lewis: Have there been any other sort of challenges to the program? 344 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,680 It's still early days in it, I guess, but any, any challenges to share? 345 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,510 Andrew Rowland: I don't think we've run into any just yet and I hope I'm not putting the 346 00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:47,870 commentators curse on things. 347 00:19:48,830 --> 00:19:51,550 I guess just scholarship programs in general. 348 00:19:53,550 --> 00:19:58,390 I've seen sometimes some of these scholarship programs are harder to get out of than they 349 00:19:58,390 --> 00:19:59,150 are to get into. 350 00:20:00,350 --> 00:20:05,670 And that was something that I was really clear and strong on from the beginning that there 351 00:20:05,670 --> 00:20:06,510 needs to be, 352 00:20:07,550 --> 00:20:13,130 they need to be meeting the criteria, otherwise there needs to be exit points. 353 00:20:15,210 --> 00:20:19,770 And I'm not saying they, yeah, they miss one meeting and, you know, you're gone. 354 00:20:21,450 --> 00:20:25,130 But it needs to be mutually beneficial to everybody. 355 00:20:25,290 --> 00:20:30,050 We're committing, not only financially but, you know, investing time in these, in these 356 00:20:30,050 --> 00:20:35,220 individuals and we need to be getting some sort of, we need to be getting payoff and 357 00:20:35,220 --> 00:20:35,940 reward for that. 358 00:20:35,940 --> 00:20:36,700 And if we're not, 359 00:20:37,100 --> 00:20:45,180 well, then, you know, there needs to be a mechanism by which that we can draw a line in 360 00:20:45,180 --> 00:20:47,100 the sand and move on. 361 00:20:47,820 --> 00:20:49,260 So touch wood. 362 00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:50,700 Yeah, touch wood. 363 00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:53,900 We haven't had those, haven't had to have any of those conversations yet. 364 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:59,340 And I'm confident with the individuals that we've selected that it's highly, highly 365 00:20:59,340 --> 00:21:01,490 unlikely that we're going to have to, 366 00:21:02,450 --> 00:21:07,810 hence the rigor of the initial selection process. 367 00:21:07,970 --> 00:21:08,530 Keith Lewis: That's. 368 00:21:09,090 --> 00:21:10,650 It sounds like a really interesting initiative. 369 00:21:10,650 --> 00:21:13,170 So it's certainly one we'll keep an eye on. 370 00:21:13,170 --> 00:21:14,810 So I'd like to check back in with you in maybe 371 00:21:14,810 --> 00:21:18,530 a year or so and even speak to some of the individuals when they, when they get going. 372 00:21:18,530 --> 00:21:19,090 Andrew Rowland: Be good. 373 00:21:19,170 --> 00:21:20,210 Yeah, absolutely. 374 00:21:20,210 --> 00:21:20,730 Absolutely. 375 00:21:20,730 --> 00:21:22,210 I think of those. 376 00:21:23,890 --> 00:21:26,290 Yeah. Of the five we've got, 377 00:21:28,110 --> 00:21:33,310 so two of them were brand new referees and they, 378 00:21:33,870 --> 00:21:42,110 one of those two has refereed his first senior women's game and I, I actually had the other 379 00:21:42,110 --> 00:21:48,830 one running touch for me last weekend and he's not far away. 380 00:21:48,910 --> 00:21:53,270 He's not far away from actually picking up the whistle and, and going solo. 381 00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:53,790 So that's, 382 00:21:54,650 --> 00:21:55,370 that's awesome. 383 00:21:56,170 --> 00:21:57,890 Keith Lewis: Can I just pick you up on something we talked about? 384 00:21:57,890 --> 00:22:02,810 You, you mentioned as part of your offering there was about the sports chaplaincy piece. 385 00:22:03,290 --> 00:22:06,330 I've seen some, some stuff around that which looks really interesting. 386 00:22:06,330 --> 00:22:07,370 Can you just give it. 387 00:22:07,530 --> 00:22:09,730 What, what is it and what's the, what's the 388 00:22:09,730 --> 00:22:10,570 thinking behind it? 389 00:22:11,210 --> 00:22:12,410 Andrew Rowland: How long have you got? 390 00:22:12,730 --> 00:22:15,850 I'm about as passionate about, as I am about refereeing. 391 00:22:15,930 --> 00:22:16,410 All right, 392 00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:17,610 so, 393 00:22:19,130 --> 00:22:24,040 so we have a, we have an organization here, it's called New Zealand Sports Chaplaincy. 394 00:22:24,830 --> 00:22:32,630 And we're lucky enough that down here in Southland we have a husband and wife team and 395 00:22:32,630 --> 00:22:32,870 one. 396 00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:35,150 And the husband actually works for Rugby 397 00:22:35,150 --> 00:22:36,990 Southland as a, as a paid employee. 398 00:22:37,790 --> 00:22:47,910 And this was floated once again just before I stepped out of the chair and I thought it was 399 00:22:47,910 --> 00:22:49,790 a fantastic idea. 400 00:22:50,730 --> 00:22:50,890 We, 401 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:57,840 we all know that we are going to have times in our career where we think we've been stiffed 402 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,720 on selection or someone's, 403 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,560 you know, someone's had a crack at us from the sideline or a coach or whatever. 404 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:11,120 And as tough as we think we are, we're human beings at the end of the day. 405 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:16,400 And these things do, whether you want to admit it or not, they, they do, they do affect you. 406 00:23:17,140 --> 00:23:21,620 And I found, I always found that if I spoke to other referees, 407 00:23:22,420 --> 00:23:23,940 they would always agree with you. 408 00:23:25,140 --> 00:23:25,460 Right. 409 00:23:25,460 --> 00:23:27,140 Which is actually not always helpful. 410 00:23:27,380 --> 00:23:27,860 Yeah, 411 00:23:28,420 --> 00:23:34,180 Sometimes you need someone to say, I think you might be overreacting there or you're, 412 00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:36,420 you're kind of missing the point. 413 00:23:37,060 --> 00:23:40,100 You know, you're blaming this person, this person, this person. 414 00:23:40,820 --> 00:23:42,660 You're blaming the game, all the rest of it. 415 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:43,520 Actually. 416 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:53,280 Is there something perhaps out of kilter in your personal life which has led you to react 417 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:55,040 in this way? 418 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:06,280 And I think the comfort of talking to somebody that has in no way shape or form got any 419 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,600 influence on your career or your pathway. 420 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:11,200 There's a safety in that. 421 00:24:11,980 --> 00:24:17,340 You still get to someone who understands the rugby landscape but is not like, we all have 422 00:24:17,340 --> 00:24:21,100 our reference, we all have our coaches and all the rest of it, but if I go to my coach and 423 00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:21,660 say, oh, 424 00:24:22,540 --> 00:24:27,180 you know, ****, I'm having a hard time at home or whatever, it might look like, 425 00:24:28,220 --> 00:24:29,100 gee, yeah, 426 00:24:30,060 --> 00:24:35,060 my coach might be 65 or 70 or whatever and I know what his response is going to be and it's 427 00:24:35,060 --> 00:24:36,820 probably not a helpful one. 428 00:24:36,820 --> 00:24:37,180 Right. 429 00:24:38,010 --> 00:24:38,250 So, 430 00:24:39,370 --> 00:24:40,810 yeah, so we've got this, 431 00:24:42,570 --> 00:24:45,290 so we've got this lady who is, 432 00:24:46,650 --> 00:24:54,170 is our sports chaplain and she comes along to our meetings and she simply just connects with 433 00:24:54,170 --> 00:24:54,690 people there. 434 00:24:54,690 --> 00:24:57,090 She doesn't, she might do a little two minute 435 00:24:57,090 --> 00:25:00,090 spot up the front about various things. 436 00:25:01,290 --> 00:25:03,130 The one she did recently was about, 437 00:25:03,460 --> 00:25:04,420 you know, negative selft. 438 00:25:04,420 --> 00:25:06,460 Talk and things like that. 439 00:25:06,460 --> 00:25:10,660 So, you know, a lot of our T and D meetings are all about, you know, on field stuff. 440 00:25:10,660 --> 00:25:19,259 But we don't necessarily, I don't think we spend enough time training our referees how to 441 00:25:19,259 --> 00:25:21,220 actually look after themselves mentally. 442 00:25:21,220 --> 00:25:24,180 We train them physically, but we don't train them mentally. 443 00:25:24,180 --> 00:25:27,460 And we all know that if you're not in a good space when you step onto the paddock, 444 00:25:27,860 --> 00:25:30,100 you're going to be in a worse space when you step off. 445 00:25:30,100 --> 00:25:30,500 So. 446 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,360 Keith Lewis: So I think the word chaplaincy was the word that jumped out at me because my 447 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:38,280 dad's in the religious side of things. 448 00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:39,720 He's a vicar, retired vicar. 449 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,520 And I saw the word chaplaincy, thought, is this a religious initiative? 450 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,120 But it sounds the way you've described it, it's a well being offer. 451 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,200 And those things aren't necessarily the same thing. 452 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,800 Andrew Rowland: And I did have the same reservation as you, Keith. 453 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,320 I'm not of the religious persuasion and I'm like, oh, 454 00:26:00,070 --> 00:26:01,030 what's this going to be about? 455 00:26:01,510 --> 00:26:03,110 But I think for us, 456 00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:08,710 the individual that we've got, and she makes it very, very clear that it's not about this. 457 00:26:10,150 --> 00:26:10,950 Ironically, 458 00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:18,310 I think I was probably the first one in our association to utilize the service. 459 00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:19,110 I had a little, 460 00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:21,990 a little mishap recently, 461 00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:29,120 a small accident which could have gone, which could have been a much, much bigger accident. 462 00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:30,320 And it led me to, 463 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:41,200 it led me to some thoughts that I wasn't overly happy with but to have someone to talk 464 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:41,520 to. 465 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,600 And she asked me some, really, 466 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:45,440 she asked me some, 467 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,440 some thought provoking questions, one of which I still can't answer, 468 00:26:50,790 --> 00:26:59,390 which was around okay, if I'm, I'm coaching, I'm coaching referees and if they perhaps make 469 00:26:59,390 --> 00:27:00,630 a mistake or something, 470 00:27:02,470 --> 00:27:07,510 for me that's actually, I should, I do welcome that because it's a learning opportunity, 471 00:27:08,550 --> 00:27:14,630 but yet I won't let myself make mistakes, I won't let myself have those learning 472 00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:15,110 opportunities. 473 00:27:15,110 --> 00:27:16,150 Goes why is that? 474 00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:17,270 And I'm like, 475 00:27:17,910 --> 00:27:18,390 oh, 476 00:27:18,790 --> 00:27:20,310 I have no idea. 477 00:27:20,310 --> 00:27:22,870 So just little things like that. 478 00:27:23,510 --> 00:27:30,230 And I know there's been two or three others that have just sat down over a cup of coffee. 479 00:27:30,870 --> 00:27:32,230 Like she'll just meet, 480 00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:38,710 she'll meet any of our membership anywhere, anytime over a cup of coffee and just have a 481 00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:40,150 bit of, a bit of a chat. 482 00:27:40,150 --> 00:27:43,030 And yeah, there's a couple of, couple of 483 00:27:43,030 --> 00:27:44,950 referees that I've seen that have, 484 00:27:46,790 --> 00:27:52,350 I guess in the past tied their self worth to their refereeing performances and if it 485 00:27:52,350 --> 00:27:54,630 doesn't go well, you kind of see them, 486 00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:57,870 you know, they become a bit withdrawn and all the rest of it. 487 00:27:57,870 --> 00:28:02,790 And I know they've been working with her and I, I can see the difference in them, you know, 488 00:28:02,950 --> 00:28:03,590 100%. 489 00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:06,790 I've had other unions, 490 00:28:07,670 --> 00:28:09,990 other unions ring up and ask about it. 491 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:12,400 I just think, 492 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:13,200 look, 493 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,600 you know, like I do, that refereeing can be extremely, extremely stressful. 494 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,840 Keith Lewis: Yeah. And isolated. 495 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:23,280 Andrew Rowland: And isolated. 496 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:24,880 Keith Lewis: You talked about driving an hour and 497 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:25,600 Andrew Rowland: a half to after. 498 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,480 Keith Lewis: Again, that's a long time for you to be in the car on your own after a potential 499 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:30,000 incident, 500 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,160 potential issue, a thing, 501 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,320 and mulling over the state of your week and your life and all those things as well. 502 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,520 Andrew Rowland: So you can come up with all sorts of weird and wacky scenarios in that 503 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:40,800 time, 504 00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:49,590 you know, but to have somebody who's not indoctrinated in refereeing and can give you a 505 00:28:49,590 --> 00:28:50,870 different perspective, 506 00:28:51,670 --> 00:28:56,870 sometimes that's actually all you need is someone to give you a slightly different 507 00:28:56,950 --> 00:28:57,670 perspective. 508 00:28:58,550 --> 00:29:02,950 You know, we're lucky with Sarah that her personality is perfect. 509 00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:04,550 It's perfect for this job. 510 00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:05,830 It's perfect for our, 511 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:09,360 for our association. 512 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,120 And I think in wider terms, 513 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:21,440 we want people who are considering refereeing to know that we care about them, we care about 514 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,080 them as people before we care about them as referees. 515 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:32,080 So we look, you know, you want that warm, inviting environment and to be known as. 516 00:29:32,420 --> 00:29:33,540 We look after our own. 517 00:29:33,860 --> 00:29:34,500 You know, 518 00:29:34,980 --> 00:29:42,180 we don't hang out to dry, we don't leave you to solve your own problems because invariably 519 00:29:42,340 --> 00:29:45,620 on your journey you will have these moments. 520 00:29:46,980 --> 00:29:51,700 And from an out, from an outsider looking in, that looks ****** scary. 521 00:29:52,820 --> 00:29:54,220 Keith Lewis: I, I, I think that's brilliant. 522 00:29:54,220 --> 00:29:55,780 I'm glad, I'm glad I asked you about that. 523 00:29:56,500 --> 00:30:01,790 I think there's a strap line that I started to use on the rugby referee.net stuff that we are 524 00:30:01,790 --> 00:30:07,350 rugby people who referee and that what you've just described is exactly that. 525 00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:11,350 We want to make sure that we look after each other, we look after ourselves and we are 526 00:30:11,350 --> 00:30:14,550 supported in whatever we do because we are rugby people and that's how rugby people 527 00:30:14,550 --> 00:30:14,950 behave. 528 00:30:15,030 --> 00:30:18,470 We just happen to do it with whistles in our hands rather than balls. 529 00:30:18,550 --> 00:30:19,270 That's really great. 530 00:30:19,270 --> 00:30:24,190 Andrew Rowland: Absolutely. And I think people look at refereeing as a lonely sport, right, 531 00:30:24,190 --> 00:30:26,150 because they only see you out there in the middle. 532 00:30:27,060 --> 00:30:27,700 But we are, 533 00:30:28,420 --> 00:30:34,260 we are one big final, we are one big family and families look after each other. 534 00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:38,180 So it, to me, it goes hand in hand. 535 00:30:38,420 --> 00:30:39,780 And you're not, 536 00:30:40,180 --> 00:30:41,100 you're not alone. 537 00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:42,900 You're not fighting this battle by yourself. 538 00:30:44,180 --> 00:30:47,700 You have got so much support, so much love, 539 00:30:48,180 --> 00:30:54,630 so much Araha around you that you know it's a cool place to be, it's a cool group to 540 00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:59,510 Keith Lewis: be part of that is a perfect place to to end this conversation. 541 00:30:59,510 --> 00:31:04,590 We've covered two really important sub subjects there and really grateful for your 542 00:31:04,590 --> 00:31:05,230 time, Andrew. 543 00:31:05,230 --> 00:31:07,150 It's great to see both those initiatives is 544 00:31:07,150 --> 00:31:11,750 kicking off and hopefully you the listeners taken something out of both both sides of it. 545 00:31:11,750 --> 00:31:14,270 Andrew Rowland: So thanks for awesome. 546 00:31:14,270 --> 00:31:15,550 No appreciate it mate. 547 00:31:15,550 --> 00:31:17,150 And thanks once again for the opportunity 548 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,080 Keith Lewis: that was the Advantage over podcast from rugby referee.net Hope you've 549 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,560 enjoyed what the content that we brought to you on this episode. 550 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,480 So what next? Well there's a few things I'd love 551 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:26,200 Keith Lewis: you to do now. 552 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:27,880 Keith Lewis: Firstly, tell me what you thought. 553 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,040 Drop me an email@keithugbeeruferie.net and it'd be great to hear from you. 554 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,840 Secondly, please tell your rugby or your referee pals about this podcast. 555 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,640 Do that wherever you happen to hang out, whether it's on the Internet or somewhere 556 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:39,960 else. 557 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:41,600 Share the links with your groups or your 558 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:42,320 WhatsApp chats. 559 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,740 That would be great if you leave a rating on the podcast site where you found this pod that 560 00:31:46,740 --> 00:31:48,460 also helps other people to find us. 561 00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:52,140 Finally come and join us in our rugby referee community. 562 00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:55,980 We've got over on Facebook we only let referees and match officials into that space 563 00:31:55,980 --> 00:31:57,180 so you'll be with one, 564 00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:01,020 you'll be one of 5,000 or so other referees where you can chat with them, 565 00:32:01,340 --> 00:32:02,940 ask questions, seek counsel, 566 00:32:03,580 --> 00:32:05,540 get opinions on referee related stuff. 567 00:32:05,540 --> 00:32:06,780 It's a fantastic community. 568 00:32:07,260 --> 00:32:08,980 Worked really hard to make that happen. 569 00:32:08,980 --> 00:32:11,860 So if you you head to refsquad.com that will 570 00:32:11,860 --> 00:32:13,260 bounce you into the route place. 571 00:32:13,660 --> 00:32:16,780 If you've done all that and you appreciate what you've heard so far, you can buy me a 572 00:32:16,780 --> 00:32:20,580 coffee@rugby referee.net Coffee Anything I get through. 573 00:32:20,580 --> 00:32:23,820 That support network helps, keeps all the things up and running. 574 00:32:23,820 --> 00:32:27,780 Rugby referee.net is all about helping you become a better referee and I hope we've done 575 00:32:27,780 --> 00:32:28,860 a little bit of that today. 576 00:32:29,100 --> 00:32:31,420 So for now that is Advantage Over.