So in this week's episode, I'm joined by San Harper and Steph Davis to have a conversation about mindfulness so I'm gonna hand over to each of you to introduce yourself and say a little bit about what you do and your connection with mindfulness or meditation so San can I start with you?

Sure. Yeah. Hi there. Nice to, nice to see you both. So I've been an ADI for 19 years, which I can't quite believe myself. So driving instructor. And I've done various different things along the way. Little bit of fleet training, so training professional drivers, delivering speed awareness courses. But more recently, I found myself, drawn towards mindfulness and meditation. I, I've since qualified to be a mindfulness teacher and, I've integrated that into my work around, learners and full license holders and driving instructors, as well as the general public, little bit of corporate stuff. So yeah, real kind of mixed show with our ADI and mindfulness, kind of slant, but, it all seems to fit quite.

Brilliant, thanks and Steph?.

Hello everyone. My name is Steph. I've been an ADI for just over 10 years. Again, similar journey really. I've done bit and pieces. I've done ADI training, trained this year as an exhale, meditation instructor. And similar to San, I found a way to kind of intertwine it with lessons and, notice people having issues with nerves and stress anxiety more and more and more on the road. So yeah, I wanted to, I wanted to explore how the meditation and the mindfulness side can help learner drivers and experienced drivers well. So yes, that's me.

Fantastic. And of course remembering that I'm not a driving instructor at all, so my background is in mindfulness and I trained as a mindfulness teacher back in 2014, but not being a driving instructor I sort of piggybacked on Kevs driving instructor skills to try and find a way of linking mindfulness and learning to drive together. But I don't have that experience myself of teaching people in cars. So it's fantastic to have two driving instructors on who. You are trained and qualified in mindfulness and meditation, and you give lessons in car. So you've got that real direct experience that lots of other people won't have. So that was why I wanted to get you on and the driving force behind it was this ready to pass campaign that's come out over the summer where mindfulness is being recommended to learner drivers to help them with driving test nerves. And I think within the industry, there's been mixed opinions, depending on how much somebody knows about mindfulness. And one of the things that dawned on me was that there quite possibly will be drivers out there who the ready to pass campaign is recommending speak to your driving instructor about mindfulness techniques. And I'm aware probably the majority of driving instructors maybe don't know how to respond to that or what to say. So I felt that that was a gap we could maybe fill with this podcast episode. So if you are listening and you've asked your driving instructor or you're planning on asking your driving instructor about mindfulness, if they don't know much about it, then hopefully we can fill in some of those gaps here. So, I'm interested in hearing from you two as your direct experience. What do you, Well, I suppose First of all, I know that every mindfulness teacher describes mindfulness in a different way. So how do you describe mindfulness?

So yeah, I mean, Jon Kabat Zinn, who is the man that bought, mindfulness from when he, 1979 I think it was, and he describes it as paying attention in a particular way on purpose, non-judgmentally. And it's, Yeah, I think he adds a line as if your life depends on it as well. Because he says, because it does. This paying attention to it's attending, to it's being attentive to whatever your experience is, good, bad, or indifferent, rather than what we all tend to do as human beings, which is to wanna numb, avoid shut out, stick our fingers in our ears, and go, la, la, la, la, la. This isn't happening because it's difficult when we pay attention to the realities of life. And particularly if we're struggling in any particular area, this, this paying attention to can be quite, quite difficult. And, the other area that I'm particularly interested in is the compassion side of things, because mindfulness is an amazing te, you know, tool and it's great to learn to be more attentive, to things. But the question is then, well, well now do I, Now what do I do? I know it's bad. I know how I feel now what. How, how am I gonna feel better? And it's the, it's the compassion part where we can learn tools and techniques just to help us to feel a bit better, just to help us to feel a bit like we've got, uh, tools to cope, manage a little bit more easily and effectively.

I think that's really pertinent because the idea if somebody is struggling with driving test nerves, then when they're paying attention to that reality of right now, yeah, that is really uncomfortable. So yes, the idea that then you can be compassionate with yourself, so you know what to do with it is. Is great. Yeah, it's, um, compassion isn't always talked about in mindfulness and it's not an area that I cover in great depth myself, so it's great to be able to remember that piece. Fantastic. Steph, I know your exhale techniques are a little bit different. They're quite different to some of the things that we do. So how does yours fit in?

I think. Because with the exhale techniques, the combine, mindful movement and breath work, it's meditation with modern music. I think, see my idea around mindfulness is it's being present within the moment at that time. And I think in terms of people with driving lessons and driving in the car, I think people find that difficult. And I think, raising people's self-awareness to how they feel, the emotions they might feel in the car. If somebody else is maybe feeling angry emotions, are we gonna take those board ourselves? How are we gonna be able to manage those situations? And even for the drive and test, just being aware of ourselves and how we feel and having techniques to be able to. Manage basically just to be able to deal with it.

Yeah, so almost being able to spot it a bit earlier so that you can bring in the techniques to, to help earlier on rather than ignoring it. Ignoring it, and then it just building up and getting bigger and bigger.

For me, one of the big, things was the fact that it was realizing that I had much more control over how I felt, and ultimately what happened Then I realized I always felt like I was looking externally for answers I was looking for somebody else to fix it or to make me feel better. For me that, that realization that actually is, we've got this within all of us, it's just finding ways to help us to learn to do. more

Definitely it's the fact that we have choice. We've got that. That's one of the things that practicing mindfulness gives you, it helps you become more aware of that moment when you can choose how to react and how to respond to somebody. So for me, when I talk about mindfulness, I always talk about. Being aware of the present moment, but being aware of it with a slightly broader perspective. So trying to be aware of different elements instead of being lost in thought or lost in pain, or lost in emotion, that actually you have a slightly. Broader perspective. So you are aware of different elements of the present moment. So you're noticing now in everything that that encompasses and it's that that gives you that moment of choice and not being an autopilot. If somebody's struggling with the idea of mindfulness, I often start with the opposite. So what do they think of as mindlessness? And people often find that much easier. If you ask how would you describe somebody who's being mindless? They're often quite quick to say, somebody's on autopilot. They're lost in thought. And they're being careless. So people often find, Sometimes easier to go backwards, than to come to it from a mindfulness point of view. So how do you both use it in lessons?

I think for me, definitely breathing techniques a hundred percent. Um, I've done it for so long, even before I started doing, me training with exhale. That's what brought me to it, to be honest, was I noticed the power of it. Just something so simple as just breathing. Just regulating your heart rate. Just calm down, not allowing yourself to just become this, ball of panic and stress when something comes up that maybe you wasn't expecting. So for me, always breathing, that's, that's definitely where that started from. It's definitely where we always go to. Do sometimes have music on in the card as well. So we use certain music with different types of frequencies, like calming frequency, so I have been putting that on low in the car, and that seems, people seem to like that.

Mm. Yeah, I use music as well occasionally. Yeah. And I, I use the breath as well, Steph. It, like you say, it's very powerful, because it, it brings people out of that fear response, doesn't it? The way that it actually affects the body. It affects the nervous system on a biochemical level. It's absolutely fascinating. But also what I find with this awareness is it's really useful for them to just, I, I call it like checking the weather. Like what's the weather like? And, and sometimes they're holding their breath or clenching their shoulders and their jaw, or they're holding the steering wheel so tight they, they can't even move. They turned into a robot because, they're so tense. But the trouble is, as you just said, the awareness part is the key part because we so often we're doing these things and we don't realize we're doing it. And I think for us as well as ADIs, it's useful to have the awareness to observe what's happening. And I'll say to them, Oh, you know, we remembering they're, Oh, sorry. Oh yes. I'm holding my breath again. Oh, yes. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I'm clenching again. So, yeah, it's so important, isn't it, the way we feel behind the wheel that, checking the weather, that internal weather pattern, Well, how actually am I feeling today? What has it been like before I got in the car? Because often we, we don't even really realize what we're bringing with us into the car.

I like that. I like that check on the weather reference. So we use, when we get to like traffic lights and stuff we say, Reset. Let's just reset. Just like a little jiggle of the shoulders, like you said, where they're holding the wheel like that really tight, just loosening the fingers. So yeah, but I like checking the weather. That's nice. I like that, I'm going to steal that,

go for it. Go for it. I mean, I thought about you guys as well, but even for myself and as an adi, Steph, you know, I have days where I have to check my own weather pattern and the way I feel, what I'm bringing into the car massively affects the lesson. And I think this is why ADIs would be so well to learn about this, because obviously there's reference to it for their own knowledge and information. It's a good thing. It's been so massive for me as an adi I'm a much calmer and a much more compassionate driving instructor with mindfulness. I notice when I'm starting to get a little bit tense or I'm starting to get a little bit frazzled. My patience maybe start to, we thin when I'm starting to feel like that I might be a bit more shorter than I maybe would wanna be. And that's not good either. So I think if we. Have this awareness with this as well that we can, We almost, And the energy you feel it, you know, it comes off, doesn't it? I know with myself, it permeates the atmosphere in the car, if one of you is a little bit off,

I would imagine that's quite strong actually, that you pick up somebody's mood or weather pattern as soon as they get in the car, and it is really important to acknowledge that that works both ways. So students are gonna pick up their driving instructor's mood and driving instructors are gonna pick up their student's mood. So I would imagine that's a really good way to start any lesson actually, is to, before a lesson check in, how am I, how am I feeling, and how is that gonna affect my moods, my emotions, and my driving behavior? And my driving decisions?

Yeah, absolutely.

Definitely, I think has, we're in such a small confined space as well in a car. In some of my training we learned that the nervous system actually does connect with others that close to you. So I think if we get in the car like in that state, it's definitely gonna transfer to other people.

Oh Oh yeah.

Yeah, definitely. And they won't even know why necessarily, and think, why am I having an off. Yeah.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, I say ADIs, I teach, It's like you almost filter this through like by osmosis. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Teaching mindfulness, it's very experiential. You have to do it, don't you? It's bit like yoga. You can't really teach it in a technical sense that you've gotta do it to really appreciate it. And I think as it filters through by osmosis, definitely the way we feel. It's act like you say, it is a very confined space and it's very you. I can feel it and I, I'm very sensitive to, to energies and stuff and when people get in the car, I, I can feel it and I'll. Wow. You know, it's, I can feel when the energy's gone softened, you know? And I said, That feels, that's better, isn't it? And they said, Oh, yeah, yeah, that's better

so it was great to hear some of these things because I remember when I first started talking about mindfulness in relation to driving, I did have a driving instructor say to me, Oh, I don't want my students daydreaming and staring at clouds, and we, we can't be having meditation in the car. And, and I, I had a real. I will say the majority of driving instructors I spoke to were much more like, Ooh, tell me more. And were much more curious, actually. They were quite, quite mindful about it. But yeah, I do remember this one reaction of being really dismissive and I remember them. Going on about clouds. I don't know where these clouds came into it all, but yeah, they kept going on about clouds. So have you had experiences of that, of either students or driving instructors talking about how do you combine, how can you do mindfulness without meditation? Is that something people get confused about?

I think people don't understand. They don't know what it is. I, I'd say, I actually did a meditation session this morning and she, she actually would said to me she would never have tried meditation. It was only because we'd been coaching. So I coached her, um, for a number of months and then it transferred through into meditation sessions and she said, it's just not. What I expected it to be. I thought it was gonna be, she said hippy dippy. She said it was gonna be like this with the fingers and, she just didn't think it was for her. So I think there's just a, a lack of understanding about it.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And that's the funny thing, isn't it? I, I actually shared a thing recently on Facebook, and it was a load of sports people and pop stars talking about mindfulness there. 50 cent or 50 cent, if I get it right. Um, saying to Oprah, I meditate. She went, What? You, you, me, you meditate? And he said, Yeah, yeah, I, I always meditate. And there was Jay-Z and I think Hugh Jackman, there was a reference on there, but a lot of people do it. And I think it is coming more into the mainstream. I think the tides are turning. Because it, I think historically there was this very old fashioned idea that you had to wear beads and Jesus sandals and tie dye clothes to practice mindfulness. And a lot of people would think, Oh, that's not for me. Um, the, the tides are changing, you know?

Definitely and the, And the truth is, is that you can be mindful about every single thing that you do when you come back to those descriptions that you both gave about paying attention, being, having an awareness of what you are doing. Well, you can do that with absolutely everyth.

Yeah, I dunno about you find Steph, but I find, with a lot of my pupils, any reference to sports psychology is helpful. Because like, you know, some of them will sort of maybe bit, bit suspicious about mindfulness or don't really understand what it is, and yet you'll talk to 'em about if they, if they play sport. Where I live in Gloucester, we've got a lot of rugby players. And they totally relate to mindset training. They totally get it. And the pep talks they have before they go out on the pitch and that they're present. And whatever routines they do, they get it. And I'm like, Well, that's mindfulness. You are just being, you know, you are just stepping back and you are observing how it is. You are present. You're not getting caught up with worries and stories of the past. You're not projecting stories of the future. You're just grounded, you're centered, you're present, ready to perform. And that's it.

And it is as simple as that isn't.

it is. Yeah. I think pe like she mentioned something this morning, like I, I didn't realize you could meditate and you did not to sit crosslegged it's like, well of course you can meditate, you could be walking down the street, and you could be mindful, you could be your car, you could be shopping. It doesn't, you don't have to just be sitting there crosslegged and empty your mind of all thoughts all together and that's what you need to do. Cause it just isn't that. But yeah, I think it's just trying to relate it to something like, you say something, people are interested in something that makes sense to them. I finding a way. For them to go, Oh, okay. Maybe I can't be mindful. Maybe I'm already.

Yeah. Yeah.

And they are skills that everybody has. They are. It is just part of being human, being mindful. It's just I guess with mindfulness, what we, we are doing is we're trying to encourage people to do it on purpose, whereas the actual skill of it is something that people do naturally every day at certain points during their day anyway, that the, the point of this is we're just practicing it. We're doing it on purpose a little bit more.

It's funny, isn't it? Because we as adults, we are so caught up in concepts because I teach a bit mindful photography as well, which I love. And I say to people, you know, when you give a bunch of keys to a baby, the baby sees shiny shapes, texture, cold, jangly. That's literally it. They're in the present moment. They see the keys for exactly what they are. They haven't got like an internal narrative going on about what the keys are for, what they might need to do with them. What was the past history of them, what they're. That doesn't exist because babies we're born with this innate ability to be mindful and present. But over the years, we start, we build up we are basically, we get conditioned, don't we? We get this conditioning where we start to have a, We start to create stories around everything. And sometimes with drive, we create a story of, I'm a rubbish driver. I'll never be any good at it. It's really scary, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And we tell ourselves these stories. Rather than just being present to actually, what am I actually doing right here in this present moment? The reality of actually operating the controls and you know, the reality of actually driving the car is one thing. The stories we tell ourselves about that experience is completely separate. Once they start to understand story, I'm making up, Oh, I go again making up that story again.

That's it. Thoughts are not facts. Stories are just stories. And yeah, because I'm not in the car with people, I'm sort of imagining certain things, but I imagine that, the people that we talk to quite a lot come out with these, what if stories? What if this happens? What if that happens? Completely ignoring the fact that at that moment in time they are safe, they are driving, they are controlling the car. So it's sort of, it's almost as if their present moment, they can't feel safe and satisfied with their present moment. They have to add in what if this happens and what if that happens?

That's what we do, isn't it? In life, rumination was one of my, um, if I could get an A level in rumination, I would've had one.

Yeah.

I used to be really great ruminating so I'd, you know, I'd always be playing back stories of he said this or she said that, and what did they mean by it? And it's hard work.

Yeah. And I wish I'd said that.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

just been able to just park that, put that, put that bag down is something in itself. So I know a lot of people.

Definitely. So is there anybody that mindfulness would not be suitable for when it comes to driving. I know that, for example, when you're running a mindfulness course, then there are certain people that we might say to them, This course isn't for you right now at this moment in time. But how about when we are trying to apply mindfulness, you know, for people who are listening, if they're interested in using some mindfulness to help them. Is there anybody that that wouldn't be suitable for? What do you think?

Um, for me, the depth that I go into with mindfulness is so light with regards to introspection. It's not, I don't think it's problematic. However, I am mindful to ask people if they have any difficulties around the breath. Because if somebody's got asthma or prone to panic attacks, where we're focused on the breath just isn't helpful. I think it's wise just to check that. And we can also, those, there's variations that we can do, so we can invite them to bring awareness to the sensations of the corners at the nostrils. They're not focusing on the actual inhalation into the lungs. Noticing the feeling of the wheel under their hands, the ground, under their feet. So we can bring attention to all the senses, but just maybe, if there's difficulties with, with breath awareness, just maybe, tailoring that to suit that client, I think.

And it is quite easy to steer clear, and in my, my background is in cancer care, and so when I was delivering mindfulness with patients, predominantly we would avoid. Breath work. So I did get into the habit of doing far less mindful breathing than other mindfulness practices just because it could be a trigger for some people. So yeah, it is easy to, if so, if breathing exercises aren't for you, there are still other types of mindfulness practices that you can give a try without going anywhere near the breath. So it doesn't have to be about breath. Yeah. How about you, Steph? Is there anybody that you sort of think, Oh, maybe mindfulness isn't for them?

Um, I don't think so. I think unless it's, you know, on a medical level, where it would cause any type of problem for them. I know when we would in training, we had like a list of contraindications, so sometimes as well with meditation because it, maybe this is more meditation rather than mindfulness in the car or people maybe with mental health Problems. If you've got, um, anything like that going on, sometimes you, and just speak to a gp, just to make sure that everythings ok to continue. But yeah, like, like Sam said, and just anyone who's issues with breath, be mindful of that, you know.

We can't help using the mindful word to just when we're talking can we,

I use odd lessons all the time. I always just be mindful of this and

Yeah.

it's so, isn't it?

That's it. So once you get the hang of mindfulness and the idea of it, it just sort of like per me,

It

I can't say that word. It just

it does.

That's it. It just permeates into your language and into everything that you do. Yeah, definitely. I think, is there anything that we haven't covered that you think would be really good to get out there?

I think for me, a big part of my mindfulness and part is being, being able to manage other people's issues on the road. See, I, I seem to experience a lot of, aggression and impatience and that kind of thing on the road. So I've found, for me personally, on a personal level, I found that really helpful. Cause I used to take it all on board. Um, and maybe still do, as you know, sometimes I'll go home and I'll get a bit upset or, you know, but. I feel that the way that I'm able to handle the things that I deal with on a daily basis in the car and I'm able to handle it better, makes me a better driver in myself. But then I've been able to pass that on to learner drivers as well because it is quite intimidating being a learner driver that are a lot of people who. Don't have patience who just don't wanna give learner drivers this space to just learn like they should be able to. There just, there's just a bit of a lack of respect. So I've felt that I've been able to help pupils with that side of things quite a lot with mindfulness.

Yeah, I could really relate to that stuff. Definitely. And I, I posted something today actually, cuz this week is the Break Charities Road Safety week. And I posted a things I've. I took a picture of one of my learners with the little banner thing and I said, let's be kind to, or let's be, patient with learner drivers because they are the ambulance, police, bus, taxi drivers of the future. And when you can no longer drive. You're gonna need somebody to drive you. And these are the drivers of tomorrow. So with, let's just let them get on with learning, you know, and not kind of get in the way of that. But everything you've said, I, I relate to, it's helping people to actually understand that it's got zero to do with them.

Yeah.

Whatever, what anyone else is, is, uh, doing, or the behaviors that they're displaying is they're just projecting and it's got nothing, It's not personal. And when you talk, you can walk 'em through a story, can't you? I sort of say, Well, let's just, I pull over if it's something been a bit challenging, and I'll say, Okay, what, what could be going on for them when you make up a story? And I said, But this is the thing. It's a story we don't know. Let's make up a story and then make up the difficult story. And I said, Well, thing is, it could be that, or maybe it could be this. This is how it's playing out for them. But we are just a couple of people in a box who are in their way. That's it. We're just in their way.

that's it. I love that.

Yeah, I, I mean, I used to suffer with anxiety myself, and I had a motorway phobia funny enough, which I had to get over to become a driving instructor little bit inconvenient. Um, so, uh, I managed to get over it, but the funny thing was it came up to bite me on the backside again. And how many, back by four years ago, I was coming back from somewhere and I felt this panic coming up, this, this thing I hadn't had for like, nearly 20 years. Thought, my goodness. Where, what, where's this come from? What's this about? That, this time I had the, the tools to deal with it and I was able to support myself and I was absolutely fine. It's just knowing kind of how to sort of be with the breath. Breathe into the, abdomen. Managing, you know, might calm my nervous system down. Giving myself a bit of, compassion triggering that oxytocin, dopamine words of, support being my own best friend and all that. And, um, yeah, I was fine and I haven't had it since. It was very strange, but I did put it down to being, maybe that was a good thing. Maybe it was reminding me of what it's like to be in that situation. Maybe these things kind of happen for a reason, sometimes don't.

Definitely, and a bit like you were saying about with, when you're teaching mindfulness, you can't just go through the motions. You have to experience it. And I think it is really useful to every now and again when we can notice. When we are anxious or nervous or panicky about something, doesn't have to be related to driving, but just noticing those feelings in ourselves gives us that, that bridge, that ability to remember and put ourselves in the shoes of the people that we're helping with nerves and anxiety to remember what it's like.

Definitely. And I think if you've ever suffered with anxiety yourself, you can, you have a lot of empathy. I know, I found it really hard to learn, to drive, to be three attempts. I didn't find learning easy at all. And I, like I said, I suffered with anxiety. That's why I just, I've managed to find mindfulness and I can, I can relate to what people are going through because I've been there myself and I think it is lovely when you feel that you can share your story with people and they can see that you are human too. You have difficult days and even in the car you can I sometimes say, I've had a bit of a day to day and you know how you feel. And we kind of share how we're both feeling. Cause we're, we're human too, aren't. And Steph

you I remember last time when we were speaking, you didn't have an easy route into driving either, did you?

Did not pass. I was the surgeon muscle. Third time, it took me forever. Failed to test when I was heavily pregnant, and then I passed. Two weeks after giving birth. Um, my mom was the same. My mom didn't pass until fourth or fifth time. I don't think anyone in my family passed first time, but my mom actually stopped driving cause of nerves and anxiety. She just doesn't like being in the car. There's so many people and it, you know, I feel bad for me mom as well. I don't think she'll ever go back now. I think it's been too long. But if she'd have been able to find something like this back then, it would've been a completely different story for.

And I think that's one of the really important things that we are trying to get across all the time is, and um, and I didn't know that about you San, I didn't know that you'd had those experiences, but it's trying to share the fact that people aren't alone. know, It is a really common problem for lots of people, but also that it is possible to overcome it. So both of you have had those experiences and have gone on to become driving instructors and then have gone on to. Develop extra skills to be able to help anxious and nervous drivers because you both have your experiences and a lot of empathy for other people in the same situation. And like you say, Steph for your mum, you don't think she'll ever go back to it. But it is possible for somebody who wants to move forward and to change.

Absolut.

I just think, I just think it's so important that people do know that they're not, and you San will see the same so many people in the car. Who feel nervous and anxious and get stressed about situations, and they do think it's just them. Why do I feel like this? No one else feels like, but I say to them all the time, nobody posts them's their failures on social media. People will only post the good stuff.

Yeah, and also I think it's useful for them to know that. It's the survivor mechanism doing its job. When, when they start getting really nervous, I say, Actually, it's your body, your nervous system's trying to protect you. There's nothing wrong with you. Cause they think there's something wrong with them. I said, There's absolutely nothing wrong with you. It's doing its job too. Well, you know, this anxiety cuz you are in a metal box. That's not normal. When were we ever born, when we were cavemen then we were meant to be driving around in metal boxes, So as human beings, it's a bit of a bizarre thing to be going around at high speed in a metal box. Um, and it's a normal thing to be experiencing. This nervous, response to these things, this fight, flight, freeze response, but it's understanding that we can recognize it, but then we can manage it. That's the thing. We can manage it. It doesn't have to then kind of spiral outta control, I think it's useful for them to know that it's, it's a normal response.

Definitely, and like you say, it means that their survival system is spot on. It's doing a brilliant job. It's just a bit unhelpful really.

Yeah. Because people can be in a very vulnerable position when due to whatever reason, can be age or other health issues where people lose that and they can get hurt because that nervous system hasn't kicked in because you know that one system's not there.

We've actually did done something in the part just clicked into my, I haven't done this for a while, but we used to name, so we used to talk about, Like when this response happens, we used to call it a name like, like it was almost something inside the brain. I haven't done that for a while. Maybe I'll go back to that. But a few people found helpful by name and what it was in their head response.

Do you ever use that phrase, If you can name it, you contain it?

I.

There's another one for you,

That as well. No, I think, cause I, I add to what you call it, Let's just say John, you say there's John again. so she would recognize when this feeling was coming up and she could just kind of push it to the side or push John to the sides, you know, And she was able to deal with nerves in that way.

And cuz when somebody's doing that, what they're doing is they're observing the way their brain is working. So instead of being lost in the thought or lost in the feeling, they're taking that. Observe a view they're taking, a balcony view? So it's almost like they're just taking a step back, slightly different perspective. So when you can label it and go, Oh, here we go again. Yeah, thank you very much, Brain. I know you're trying to keep me safe, or naming it or labeling it. Whenever you do that, you're just getting a slightly different perspective, taking a slight step back and all of a sudden, more in control.

Yeah, i's, see, it's. Of, um, stepping out of your own way sometimes, isn't it? Cause our egoic brains, we make everything about us, don't we?

Is there anything else you wanted to say that you wanted to share with anyone listening? Anybody who's interested in mindfulness driving nerves, anything else that you wanted to say?

Well, I'll say thank you very much Tracy, this opportunity to, um, join you today. It's been lovely to meet Steph as well and it's been lovely to talk to people who are. Kind of on the same page with this. And I just think it's great. I think the more people that we can reach, to help people to at least kind of be curious about what mindfulness is, it might not be, it's not for everybody, but I think it's good to at least be curious. And I think podcasts like this are really good to help raise awareness. Um, and as for my part, people can find me. I'm in Gloucester, so if anybody's local to me, San Harper, sure, you can find me if you Google me. Um, happy to help. Anybody would like to know a bit.

Lovely. And obviously we'll have links in the show notes so that people can find you, San, and you as well, Steph.

thank you again for having me on again. I really, I'm really pleased. I really appreciate it and it was lovely to meet you as well, San. I think, like San said, it's just getting the words out to more and more people. Just letting them know that there's help out there if you need it, and you are not alone.

Yeah, definitely. And. the final message really being that there is no one size fits all technique to stress, nerves and anxiety. So mindfulness we've talked about how it overlaps with breathing. We've talked about how it overlaps with our thought processes, and so it overlaps into lots of. Other techniques, so it might be mindfulness or it might be another technique that actually you might be doing mindfully without even realize it.

That's a really good point actually. I think mindfulness is a really good, It opens a doorway. I think to new possibilities. I know a lot of people that I've introduced to mindfulness have then gone on to explore aromatherapy, for example, reiki, other techniques I think it kind of becomes a bit of a journey of exploration, finding what works for you and mindfulness techniques can then certainly lead to, uh, wanting to explore all kinds of things that can be supportive.

Yeah, definitely lots of other things. And then if you are interested in mindfulness, that there are different types of mindfulness that there's meditation, there's music, there's breathing, there's no one size fits all technique, but even within an individual technique, there's no one size fits all way of doing that technique. So there are lots of possibilities and opportunities for everybody. Well, It's been lovely having you both on. I'm sure that we will talk again on a future episode. If we get some questions or we'll, maybe pick up on the subject again at a later date. So thank you very much for joining me.

So a big, thank you once again, to son and to Steph for joining me. And we hope that you enjoyed that podcast episode. Head to the show notes. If you would like to work with either sun or Steph, Steph runs workshops for driving test nerves. And San runs, the mindfulness courses, especially for driving instructors. And so she has a directory of instructors. Who've been through her training. So why not have a look and see if there's an instructor near you? Um, seven to next time. Have a great day, whatever you're doing.