Speaker: 00:00:00

Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the world

become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.

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My name is George Benoka and I am joined by Jeff Musgrave, the author and founder of The

Exchange.

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And we're so excited to be with you guys.

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We're looking forward to this week's episode where we're going to talk about one of the

most outrageous deals ever thought of and ever conceived of, the outrageous exchange that

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the exchange Bible study is named after and it's the thing that you get to in the middle

of all of it that is like the turning point.

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It is the climax of the whole introduction to Jesus Christ and what he did for you.

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And so really excited to talk with Jeff about that today.

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So Jeff, why not put this amazing, amazing exchange in the chart that you used to

illustrate?

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Why not put it at the beginning?

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mean, should it?

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Yeah.

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Wouldn't that be a lot easier for people to kind of go through it?

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It is it is one of those things where you know how powerful it is and you'd like to get it

in as soon as possible.

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So I definitely understand the question.

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The reality is though, that the reason that it's such a light bulb moment is because of

the pre knowledge of God's holiness and justice that is that is set the table for the

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understanding now that comes with

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that's what Jesus did.

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So I really feel like it is a light bulb moment.

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It's one of those things where you just watch people over and over and over.

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It's almost you, you know, you can almost just watch the Holy Spirit just, you know, click

that cord and watch the lights shine.

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but but I really do believe that when a person recognizes because God is holy, he cannot

tolerate my sin.

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And because God is just, he cannot overlook my sin.

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I'm not only alienated from God, but I have condemned myself through my own sinfulness.

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And then when we see a graphic that helps us to visualize that Jesus took that penalty

that I have earned on himself and has

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literally allowed me to go stand in his place and have his righteousness so that this holy

God can embrace me because of the change that Jesus has given to me through the gospel.

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That's what makes that exchange moment so powerful because they've understood that

alienation and condemnation that we've earned for ourselves.

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You know, uh it's amazing how our world really wants us to give the good news without the

bad news.

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Why do you think, especially in modern-day America, why do think that is such a temptation

for churches to present the gospel that way, you know, just to present that good aspect of

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it and not that the bad news aspect of it?

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Why do think we as humans kind of gravitate towards that?

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You know, I'm, I read through the Bible every year and right now in the new Testament, I'm

in the middle of Galatians.

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So it just so happens that your question is laying on the backdrop of that.

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Having just read that and Paul literally says this, if I used works of any kind, he was

talking specifically about circumcision, but he's talking about if I allowed for works, I

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would remove

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the offense of the cross.

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And he uses that little phrase, the offense of the cross.

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And the offense of the cross is that I deserve what Jesus got.

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That's what I earned.

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My sin demands that.

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And it really shows the oftenness of my own condition.

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And I think that we as humans are

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aren't naturally humble.

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mean, we don't, want to genuinely believe.

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I think, I mean, I know I'm not perfect, but I think I could be good enough to get to

heaven.

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You know, those, those sorts of thoughts.

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And when we have to come to the conclusion that I, I, I not only can I not make it to

heaven, but I'm not even worth God rescuing.

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mean, that's, that's really literally what we have to come to.

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Repentance is recognizing, I deserve that and I need mercy and grace.

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so getting to that humble place of needing mercy and grace is a long ways down.

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human nature does not want to go there.

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I will say this,

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That's why we need the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit brings us to that point.

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I think as a disciple maker, we need to recognize that we work together with the Holy

Spirit by allowing the law, again in the book of Galatians, to be a schoolmaster to bring

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us to this understanding.

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When we set ourselves up next to the perfection of God's nature displayed to us through

the law, we all have to acknowledge, cannot, please God by myself, I need a rescue.

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Yeah, and not to mention that you really can't help somebody until they know they need to

be helped.

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You can't help somebody that doesn't want to be helped.

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And so if somebody doesn't believe they need to change, if they don't believe in the

solution, if they don't believe that there's a problem, mean, all of it falls on deaf

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ears.

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And I don't think anybody in the world at this moment, you know, at this moment when we're

recording this right now,

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on a Friday, in the last week and a half, I don't think anybody would argue with you that

the world is really messed up in comparison to God's and that the world needs God's

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justice.

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It needs His judgment even.

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It needs Him to intercede in what is going on in the world.

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And I'm sure in your experience, you've come across lots of stories that are great

examples of why somebody needs to hear the bad news.

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before the good news.

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Yeah.

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I, know, if when you were talking about that and in the, in the context of where we live

right now, the, the,

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plea for justice is is real.

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We have watched evil perpetrate life stealing evil.

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And so we really do I mean, the human soul calls out, we want justice.

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And I think that at the bottom of justice and the bottom of genuine holiness and

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righteousness in our own hearts is the plea for God to rid the world of sin.

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And that's really what the exchange is.

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It's an individual God ridding the soul of sin through that exchange in which Jesus Christ

takes that place.

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we long, those of us who know Jesus, long for the day when God will do that from

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the world and the world will no longer have sin.

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There'll be no more pain, no more tears.

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you know, that that's, those are going to be unbelievably great days.

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the way God does that is through justice and the exchange is God pouring out that justice

on Jesus.

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That's, that's, and we either are going to be standing in that justice at the end of the

world, or we have to go stand at the foot of the cross.

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and participate in what Jesus Christ did on our behalf.

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So, you know, you were talking about calling for justice.

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I just feel like these are moments of clarity that we can look at it and say, Oh, I think

I understand justice in a way maybe I didn't last week.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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Yeah, it's clearer than ever.

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the need to talk about this exchange is more prevalent than ever at this moment in our

country and in the world even, as the world teeters on the edge of absolute chaos.

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I was actually talking with somebody who ordered some exchange Bible studies for the first

time.

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And um I called her this week and she said, well,

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My only feedback for you guys is the first two chapters are definitely bad news.

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And I told her what you've told me, what we've said before on this podcast.

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If you can get through chapters one and two of the exchange, if you can get to chapter

three about God's love, if your relationship can survive those first two chapters, you can

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survive almost anything.

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You know, because that is as—and we're not being extra blunt.

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We're just—we're telling you exactly what the Bible says without removing any of God's

words.

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Yeah.

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And I think that that's really critical.

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We have to lovingly hold someone's hand and figuratively sometimes and put our arm around

them and kind of walk with them through this truth because it is devastating truth.

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But the Bible tells us the Holy Spirit is in the world convincing the world of sin and of

judgment and of righteousness.

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And so we have to understand the

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the sin and judgment so that the righteousness of Jesus kind of, Oh, I understand that.

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So, you know, you asked the question and I kind of interrupted the thought with, the plea

for justice.

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If, if I know of a, of a time where, know, someone kind of came to this, we have a little

path or a track called my path to God.

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And I, I love this little track because I was

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I was in the room when the birth that is talked about inside of this track happened.

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A friend of mine, Mary Ellen Norwood, it was in 2007 and on May 17th of that year, she

understood for the very first time that she had earned eternal death and that hell was

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genuinely where she not only

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was headed but deserved.

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And so if you don't mind, George, I'd like to read just a uh cut from her story because I

think helping people recognize what she was thinking helps us understand the power of the

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of, of, of showing the exchange.

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So, it, she says, I have to tell you that it was inconceivable to me that God would ever

condemn me to hell.

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We had a special relationship, not only that, but

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I'm a good person.

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I'm full of good works." And then she goes on literally for a paragraph talking about how

good she is and she ends with, am full of good works.

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I'm a good person.

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How could God even think about sending me to hell?

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And then she says, yeah, back to that justice thing again, and God's inability to go

against his just nature.

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Bottom line, sin must be judged and the penalty for sin is death.

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Okay?

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With that realization,

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My human brain is racing.

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How do I escape death?

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I'm looking for a way out.

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And it was that evening that Mary Ellen understood that God had provided a substitute,

someone to take her place to die in her, to die in her place and, and give the

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righteousness that they earned to her.

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And so it was, it was, it was actually when we were studying the exchange, you know, you

were talking about that.

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that light bulb moment, it was when we were studying that exchange that it all began to

make sense to

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Yeah, that's, it's one of the reasons we believe in a full treatment of the gospel.

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It's one of the reasons to have, it's one of the strategic advantages to having a

relational way to meet for several times to go through the word of God.

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And you don't have to memorize, you don't have to, you know, have this in your mind

forward and backwards.

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You don't need a seminary degree.

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You just go through it.

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And the study does the heavy lifting.

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Bible verses do the heavy lifting.

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think it's so important.

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And I think when we say this is an outrageous deal, we're not bragging on the fact that

the illustration that the exchange makes out of the exchange that's already in the Bible,

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the real thing that is amazing is the exchange itself.

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But the illustration is so helpful in capturing it.

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And I don't know where that came from, but I don't know how you got the idea, but I mean,

it is a light bulb moment.

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Yeah, I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase that God is more than enough.

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That phrase was just really going through my mind.

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And I started thinking about this record that we have and that God not only took care of

that record through the exchange, but that he literally gave to us the beautiful, perfect

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righteousness of Jesus.

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And so that little phrase that God's character, God, is more than enough is what kind of

made me think through the process of Jesus literally, not just taking care of our sin, but

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making us holy like God is holy so that God can embrace me, not in my sin, but in the

holiness of Jesus Christ.

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Right, right.

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I think that's amazing.

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And the chart is great for concrete thinkers.

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And filling it out is where I see people kind of, it clicks for them because it's like you

actually cross out your name.

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And so I don't know if you can show them an example of this chart, but I believe you told

me earlier, it's in every one of our resources, which is amazing.

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That's what a great.

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Great thing it is.

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Yeah, I got to thinking about it and I actually picked up a couple of books that kind of

feature it.

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And then I realized, it's in every single one of our books.

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I do have a copy of the Exchange Bible study right here.

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And you'll have to tell me because I can't see it if that's clear enough for everybody.

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Can you see that?

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It's, yep, yep, it's in focus.

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It's that cross image right there on the left page.

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Yes, exactly.

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And so the idea is the grade in area is what represents my sin record.

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And then over on the other side, we see the perfect record of Jesus Christ.

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Literally, he lived that perfect life here on earth.

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And that when we make the exchange with him, we cross out our name and put Jesus in his

place.

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He died as a sinner.

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literally a lying coveting thief because that's my guilt in my place and then he lets me

go over and cross out his name and write my name in there and have his record so that when

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God sees me he doesn't see my sinfulness he sees the perfect righteousness of Jesus

Christ.

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So that's the beauty of the exchange.

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I love what Charles Spurgeon said illustrations are windows into the truth.

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So the chart is only a visual reality of the exchange that Jesus made for us.

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And we just, we just want people to be able to see it, visualize it.

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There is something about that inductive style of the exchange Bible study where a person

is doing this Bible study on themselves, discovering the truth for themselves, crossing

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out their name.

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I heard one person say, you know, when I did that, I got goosebumps all over.

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I've never watched anybody fill it out, even people who already knew Jesus, that didn't

recognize the gravity of the moment in which they're crossing out Jesus name and writing

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their own name in that place that that it's just something very, very uh graphic,

literally, about what you're seeing there in front of us.

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Yep.

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And I've never seen the illustration break under any circumstances.

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I'm not saying it couldn't, but it was never lost on a child.

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It was never lost on somebody whose first language was in English, in my experience.

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Everybody that I've ever done that illustration with, it works because it's simple.

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It's not just simple.

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It is just maybe a very clear reflection of 2 Corinthians 521.

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The verse itself is really clear.

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and the illustration just takes that clarity and puts it on paper in artistic form.

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Yeah.

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And what we're doing here is we're taking those pronouns from 2 Corinthians 521 and we're

putting the individual that's doing the Bible study into that verse.

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So when God says, our sake, God made Jesus to be sin for us who knew no sin, that in him

we might be made the righteousness of God in him, that plural pronoun there does include

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the whole world, but because it includes the whole world,

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it we can individualize that.

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So we could say for Jeff's sake, God made Jesus to be sin that in him, Jeff might be made

the righteousness of God.

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So we just basically are taking that pronoun and individualizing it to every single

person.

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and the illustration allows that to happen.

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Yeah, I think that's wonderful.

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And it is a very personal thing.

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What's amazing is um when I've done this with people, I sometimes ask them, hey, these are

general sins that are put on the list on your side.

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Is there anything else you'd add?

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I know some things I'd add.

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It's amazing to me the power of transparency when you sit down and do a study with

somebody and...

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you yourself willing to be transparent about the things Jesus saved you from, and then

when somebody else is willing to be transparent of their own accord, of their own will,

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you know, when they're comfortable to do so, that is a very, very powerful thing because

it just lowers some of the guard, and then it shows people, if Jesus could save me, he

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could save you.

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I'm not a better person than you.

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I'm not...

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The ground at the foot of the cross is level.

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We are all equally depraved.

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And so I think that's a very, very important thing that I've seen just as I've worked with

people.

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Yeah.

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And, and I always tell people, put these particular sins because I'm guilty of all of

them.

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And then I, I, I, this is not really a joke.

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This is really true.

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I said, there are other sins that it didn't right there.

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Cause I don't want you to know about them, but God knows about them.

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And I say that for a couple of reasons because it's true, but it's also true about the

person I'm talking to.

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And they, they recognize that.

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Is there any other stories that stand out in your mind that where you've had opportunity

to share or anything like that?

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I was going to ask you if you've ever gotten to the place where a person balked and didn't

want to cross out their name and write Jesus above it.

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I just have watched people realize, this is, this is what I did.

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It's one person literally said, I am so ashamed.

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Jesus did this in place of me.

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And they're just, that right as she was getting ready to cross it out, it was like the

grief of recognizing I, I did this, that was really powerful.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, probably the instance that stands out in my mind is most recently did it with this

illustration that took them through the exchange website with Zahra and Milad are Iranian

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friends.

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And I can say their name now on the podcast because for those of you that were praying for

them, they were granted asylum in the United States because they were baptized publicly in

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our church and they became members and

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you know, they've become Christians and genuine Christians.

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The judge said, you know, we need to protect you guys and so granted asylum.

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But I digress when Zahra and Milad, when I explained the exchange to them, I mean, they

just, I mean, they could not believe they had what you're describing that level of such

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incredible gratitude that like it's almost unthinkable.

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It just begs the question.

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The new mystery doesn't become, you know,

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Why does God send people to hell and how could Christ save?

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The new ministry is, or the new mystery is of our life is why does God love us so much?

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Why did he choose me?

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Why would he do this for me?

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Now that was the question out of their lips and that's when I could look at them genuinely

and say, unlike Calvinism and Arminianism and all the other Trinitarianism, all the other

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theological conundrums that Christians deal with.

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That's when I'm happy to say I have no idea why God bothers with us.

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I have no idea.

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I have no answer for you.

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All I can just say is thank you Jesus.

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You know, that's it.

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So I think that's important.

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that in the context of second Corinthians chapter five, verse 21, second Corinthians

chapter five, verse 14, which is kind of the beginning of the, the, the word

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reconciliation as he's, as he's showing that through the passage and the word

reconciliation just simply means bringing us back to God, that, that we, we had been

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alienated from him and through what Jesus did in the exchange.

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He reconciled us.

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He brought us back to God.

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And the verse that I'm talking about, verse 14 says the love of Christ controls us.

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And the word control literally is the word for being put between a rock and a hard place

that when I see what God did for me in the exchange, that, that truth controls me.

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And I,

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I have to remind myself of that rather than trying to be good.

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Cause I don't know whether you are or not, but I have this flesh that constantly calls to

me and I want to tell somebody off and I want to get, ugly.

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And what all I have to do is not, you know, kind of dial Jeff down and control him.

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All I have to do is focus on the beauty of the exchange and the wonder that God loved even

me.

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And that love controls me.

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Yep, yeah, and I think that's an extremely powerful thing.

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So many people make a caricature out of God or want God to be something like a character.

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Of course, if you've ever been to a fair carnival, you've seen a character.

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It's a rendering of somebody, but it totally takes certain features and blows them out of

proportion.

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Well, you know, if you just want God to only be loving and gracious and not hear about His

judgment and holiness, you're asking for a caricature.

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Or if all you focus on is His holiness and His justice, then that is a character as well.

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And so what we have to do is look at God and look at Jesus the way the Bible gives Him to

us, the way the Bible presents Him to us.

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And that is the only way to see Him.

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And so that's, now that will lead to eternal life.

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That truth will change your life and lead to eternal life.

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You know the psalmist when he recognized that God's hand was upon him in Psalm 139 and

that's really what we're all discovering at the cross is that Jesus did this for me, that

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he loves me and that he has his hand on me.

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He's actually calling me to himself.

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David's response was such knowledge is too wonderful for me.

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It is high.

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I cannot attain to it.

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mean, so you were talking a while ago about you have to actually say, I don't know, you

know, why God would love me that much.

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The, the, the Psalmist said the exact same thing.

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I can't attain to that.

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I don't, it's outrageous.

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There's just no way.

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That's why we call it the outrageous exchange because what Jesus did for us is just

outrageous that he would do that.

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Yeah, yep.

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And that's why we serve Him.

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That's why we go out into the harvest.

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That's why we labor.

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That's why we give our life.

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We give everything for Jesus because He saved us, gave everything for us.

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And so it's a better deal for us than Him, but He loves us and wants to be with us.

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And so He wants the relationship and that's why we do what

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you made a statement that I know you made it a little bit jokingly.

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It's a better deal for us than it is for him, but God loves us so much that he is so

satisfied that he has redeemed us and brought us to him.

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So I think, you know, when we, the, the song blessed the Lord, my soul with all that is

within me bless his Holy name.

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the, fact is that I bless him.

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Hmm.

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by receiving him got every single time someone makes that exchange with him.

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God is blessed and it and it he's he's he's satisfied.

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We're his gift to himself and and and it I totally get it from my perspective.

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It's a better deal for me than it is for him.

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But he is he loves me so much.

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It is it really genuinely is a good deal for him because he wants to be with me.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Amen.

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It is amazing.

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It is amazing.

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It's absolutely incredible and mystery and we'll spend eternity living it out.

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So, well, thank you guys so much for listening.

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We appreciate all of you.

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Thank you for praying.

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Love our supporters.

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I mean, I am just so thankful to the Lord for how many orders I see coming through on the

website.

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That's not, that has nothing to do with money.

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mean, we...

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The amount of money that we make on these books is laughable.

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But we do what we need to do to keep the lights on and to keep the mission going.

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But at the same time, is just so encouraging to see people so passionate about getting the

word out there, getting the gospel out there, being relational, reaching their neighbors,

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reaching their community or in the nations with the gospel.

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so...

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single, every single time we see a book go out the door, we see another soul touched with

Jesus.

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And that's, that's why we get so excited about it is because when books go out the door,

we know that, that someone is going to be touched with the gospel.

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And that's why it's so exciting to us.

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And, it is thrilling.

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I, we, this morning we had someone come over to the house and get a couple of Bible

studies because they had someone that they needed to go do it with right now.

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Wow.

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just think a lot of us are sensing the urgency that that at least if not the urgency time

is short at least we see this.

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The world is bad and people need hope.

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They need the hope of the gospel.

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Right, right, exactly right.

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So, that being said, pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest that he would send

forth laborers.

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And you guys who are out there in the harvest, keep doing what you're doing until Jesus

comes home or takes us home.

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And so, we'll be praying for you.

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We love you guys and we'll see you next week.

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Thank you.