If you're not out there as a missionary, if you

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just live a simple life at home,

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even these lives, they can be a beautiful flower

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for Jesus when you try and

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fight for obedience to God's Word,

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because it's His Word. It's just true from

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beginning to end and we need to

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follow it and He will bless that.

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Till now I don't understand everything and that's

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fine, that's fine, because

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I'm a human being. I'm not God.

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But just understand, just read, understand and

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try with the Holy Spirit

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to do what you understand.

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Heiko, Sabine, welcome to the podcast. We're

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sitting here in Switzerland,

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but you all are from Germany.

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It's great we're able to meet here and capture

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some of your story. So I

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want to start at the beginning.

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For each of you, were you raised in a religious

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setting? Tell us a bit of your backstory,

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anything else you want to

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say by way of introduction.

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I was raised in a typically German

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middle-class family, I would say.

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I would say this as a Lutheran atheist. So we are

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part of a Lutheran church,

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member of a Lutheran church,

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so pay the church tax like common in Germany. But

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we have nothing to do with the Bible, nothing to

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do with Christ, nothing to do with God.

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Maybe join the church service once in a year, so

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Christmas or something like this.

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So it was just on the paper that we were members of

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the church. So I had no contact to believers.

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I can't remember anybody who was a true believer.

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So I would say there was nothing against

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religion, I would say, but

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it was not part of our life.

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And how about you, Sabina?

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I grew up in a broken home and my mother used to

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go to an evangelical church. And I was there for

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children's lessons and stuff.

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I was exposed to Bible stories, but my father was

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an atheist and he left our

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family when I was a teenager.

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And things crumbled down then and I went away

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from everything concerning Christianity when I

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moved out for my nurse's training.

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So when I lived on my own, I

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didn't go to a church anymore.

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You say you moved out to... What

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kind of training were you going to?

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Nurse's. I'm a nurse.

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So it sounds like for both of you, have you said

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you were atheist then? Like you didn't believe in

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God or you just didn't think about God?

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From my point of view, I would say I wouldn't

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think about God. That was not a

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topic in my life, nothing about God.

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I wouldn't say, yeah, nothing against, but there

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was no reason to think about God in my life.

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And I clearly rebelled against God.

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Why?

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See, my mother said that she is a Christian, but

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she had asked things of me that were

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contradictory to the Bible,

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like hating someone that she hated.

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And I just wanted to go away from this.

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You had a reaction against Christianity because

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of what you had seen. Is that fair to say?

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Yes.

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So you're going through life, religion is not a

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big part of the story

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really for you all at this point.

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So how did you two meet and eventually got

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married? Yeah, tell me about that process.

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Okay, I don't know the right English word, but in

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German we would say contact Anzeige, so it was an

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advertisement in a newspaper like...

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In these times newspapers were just common. And

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so, yeah, that's how we got in contact.

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We met, we somehow fell in love. And yeah, that's

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how life starts, like in a worldly surrounding.

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So yeah, we get... after a while our first son

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was born and then we get married.

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And then our second son was

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born, yeah. Typical German life.

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And you had said you were on paper at least, a

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member in the Lutheran

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church. Did you maintain that or...

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No. At one point I said, okay, I have to pay

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church taxes for what reason?

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I didn't serve the church, the church didn't help

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me in any way, so I quit being

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a member of the Lutheran church.

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But only for financial reasons, as simple as it

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is. So that I was rid of all

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religious things, I would say.

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This might sound funny to an American listener,

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but in Germany you pay church tax, like you do

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pay tax to the state or government.

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Okay, is it because it's a state church? Is the

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state and church together?

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Somehow yeah.

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The Catholic and Protestant

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churches, they can raise or ask for taxes.

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And some other churches as well,

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yeah. But these are the major...

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That is a bit odd. For our listeners

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in America, they'd be like, "What?"

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Yeah, as an American I can imagine if they would

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try to do that, that would probably not work,

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because that's not how churches operate there.

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But again, it's this church as, in your

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experience, as more of a tradition.

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Institutional, building, whatever you call it.

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And it was never a reality for either of you all

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in your lives at that point.

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So do you want to give me a general picture of

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what was life like then?

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At this point in your lives, you're married,

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you're starting a family.

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Anything you want to add on, yeah,

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what was your life at that point?

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Okay, just to explain what life was in this time.

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So I had long hair, jewelry,

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and was used to hear heavy metal music,

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alternative music. We voted

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for the left-wing Green Party and

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drink a lot of alcohol. So this is, I would say,

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typical German life. Nothing really bad

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from this point, but it was just

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a sinful life, yeah, I would say.

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And actually, I think I was the one leading out.

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This is something that is very

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important in our relationship.

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I have a personality that is kind of, I like to

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make decisions quickly. I

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like to talk fast and stuff.

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And I think this is one of the things that

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brought us, I don't know,

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into trouble, into difficulties.

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Because I led out in most of the decisions that

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we made. We had been traveling to India,

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and I turned towards Buddhism. I was searching

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for something deeper in Buddhism.

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Then we had contact to a Catholic church in our

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village, and I was searching there. But all these

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points, and there were several more points in our

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lives, in my life, it just looked dead to me.

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And especially with Buddhism, I knew enough that

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maybe demons might be involved. From my childhood

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teaching, I knew that some dark spirits might be

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involved in that belief,

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especially in the Tibetan

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Buddhism, that we kind of, I

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wouldn't say followed, but searched.

Getting contact.

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So there was interest in spirituality.

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For me, yeah.

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Yeah. Not as much for you as for Heiko. Okay, so

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there was something there then for you in your

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life that says, "I'm interested in this spiritual

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thing, religion, but it sounds a bit vague."

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I was always on a quest for truth.

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Why did you think spirituality had truth for you

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at that point in your life?

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I don't know. It's difficult to answer. I just

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felt like without some deeper meaning in life,

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my life is just void. It's

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without sense. Why live on? Yeah.

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I think I gave my life to Christ when I was a

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child, but this kind of got buried.

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And maybe this was the little

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flame that was burning in my heart.

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And Jesus says to those who seek, they will find.

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And I was always on a quest. Even when I left the

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church, when I was a nurse,

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it was just like, I was always looking for more.

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Yeah. There's something there like you're

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searching for meaning.

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Meaning in life or purpose.

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Is that the right way of saying it?

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And a goal to pursue.

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A goal. Yeah.

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Someone to worship also. Someone to admire.

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So, at what point then does Christianity start

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coming back into the story? Because

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you're talking Buddhism, going to India, interest

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in spirituality. Somewhere Christianity comes in.

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And where did that start and how?

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Actually, we were on a vacation in northern

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Italy. And accidentally, we

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were in a valley where the

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former Hutterites, the early Anabaptists in the

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1600s, met in 1534-36 or something.

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We didn't know that, but we planned a small

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hiking trip. Our two boys were already born,

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so we packed our stuff and hiked to this place

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that we found on the spot that was called

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Luther [indistinct]. It sounded like, I don't

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know, an altar for Martin Luther.

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Martin Luther. And we said, it's funny to go

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there. Let's just check what that is.

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Out of curiosity.

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Yeah. It was back in the valley, just a very

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remote place in the valley. And it turned out

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to be the secret worship place for the early

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Anabaptists. And there was a huge rock standing

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saying that the early Anabaptists met there

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secretly for prayer and worship meetings.

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And I had been in contact with a Beachy Amish Mennonite

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pen pal when I was a teenager.

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So I knew something about

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Anabaptism. Actually, I knew a lot about the

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martyrdom? How do you

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say that? They were martyrs?

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Oh, yeah. Yeah, martyrs.

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Martyrs. Yeah, sorry. And standing there,

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I just knew it was just like someone was telling

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me, this is what you're

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looking for in every place

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that you are seeking in or looking into. Yeah,

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that was the turning point. And when we went home

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from the vacation, I started reading the Bible

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again, I prayed and we were looking for my former

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pen pal. She now lives in Australia with her

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husband. They had tried to plant a church there.

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It didn't work out over at that time. They were

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still in the process of working with the people

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in Australia. And then I got in contact with her

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two weeks after we tried

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to find her. And then she

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helped me do my first steps with

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Christ to repent from so many things.

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Wow, that's incredible. You'd had this pen pal

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before. What was the first

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connection to this person?

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Actually, one of her friends was visiting a

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friend of mine in Germany.

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And the friend of mine brought

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this girl to our school and I needed to improve

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my English. And I just asked her, would you know

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of a girl that would like to write letters back

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and forth? And so we got connected and I visited

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her once and I saw something in her life that I

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had not seen before in the

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church that I grew up in.

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So you had some of that background coming

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into this. That's

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significant. So there's all these

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little, maybe even not little, but other pieces

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of your life coming together, building into,

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strangely enough, this hiking trip. That is

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incredible. That must have been quite the

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surprise. You go on this hike and you see this

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monument or whatever you want to call it back

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there. Did you notice anything about that

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situation or you are still,

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religion is irrelevant to me?

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I don't care. I don't care about God. Yeah. Where

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00:13:07,661 --> 00:13:09,288

are you at this point? I think it's just,

264

00:13:09,538 --> 00:13:13,167

it was just curiosity from my point of view

265

00:13:13,167 --> 00:13:15,544

because I didn't know anything about all these

266

00:13:15,836 --> 00:13:18,923

things about Anabaptism. And Sabine told me some

267

00:13:18,923 --> 00:13:23,010

stories, but it was just, I was curious about all

268

00:13:23,010 --> 00:13:25,262

these things. What's happening? We had one funny

269

00:13:25,262 --> 00:13:27,723

thing, situation in India when we were hiking.

270

00:13:28,224 --> 00:13:31,268

We did a hike in India and going down the

271

00:13:31,268 --> 00:13:33,854

mountains, I, all of a sudden, I don't know

272

00:13:33,854 --> 00:13:36,774

why, but I sang a Christian song and he was

273

00:13:36,774 --> 00:13:39,109

asking me, Hey, what are you singing now?

274

00:13:40,152 --> 00:13:42,488

Yeah. So, and maybe, so you knew something about

275

00:13:42,488 --> 00:13:46,367

the story. I was not against Christianity or

276

00:13:46,367 --> 00:13:49,537

religion, but it was not part of my life. So I

277

00:13:49,537 --> 00:13:52,289

was not, had no contact. So it was,

278

00:13:52,331 --> 00:13:57,294

it was, I was curious about what, what does it

279

00:13:57,294 --> 00:14:00,089

mean? So yeah, that was, I

280

00:14:00,089 --> 00:14:01,298

think the starting point.

281

00:14:01,465 --> 00:14:04,009

And he even helped me to find my pen pal.

282

00:14:04,009 --> 00:14:05,678

Yeah- knows somebody in Australia- I know,

283

00:14:05,678 --> 00:14:10,015

but it sounds like adventure. Yeah.

284

00:14:11,392 --> 00:14:12,685

Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I

285

00:14:12,685 --> 00:14:13,394

think that's an important

286

00:14:13,394 --> 00:14:16,522

piece. It's not that you were angry against

287

00:14:16,522 --> 00:14:19,400

religion or God. It's just, maybe the word would

288

00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:22,319

be indifferent. Yeah. Yeah. It just wasn't

289

00:14:22,319 --> 00:14:26,073

important really. No. Yeah. But it sounds like

290

00:14:26,073 --> 00:14:27,616

you're starting on a journey at this point.

291

00:14:27,825 --> 00:14:28,784

You're definitely starting

292

00:14:28,784 --> 00:14:29,451

on a journey. You're starting

293

00:14:29,451 --> 00:14:31,537

to read the Bible again. Tell me about that

294

00:14:31,537 --> 00:14:34,039

process. It sounds like you're beginning the

295

00:14:34,039 --> 00:14:36,375

process of coming back into Christianity or

296

00:14:36,375 --> 00:14:39,211

coming to Christianity. Actually, it was like,

297

00:14:39,211 --> 00:14:42,298

God had opened my eyes or has opened my eyes.

298

00:14:42,881 --> 00:14:45,551

I saw so many things that were wrong in my life.

299

00:14:46,093 --> 00:14:51,223

And I tried to, how'd you say that? Like, do it

300

00:14:51,223 --> 00:14:54,643

well again? How'd you say that? Like, I

301

00:14:55,936 --> 00:14:57,938

went to people and said, I'm sorry for what I

302

00:14:57,938 --> 00:15:01,567

did. And a lot of changes also happened. Like we

303

00:15:01,775 --> 00:15:04,862

raised our boys at that point, until that point,

304

00:15:05,154 --> 00:15:08,949

anti-authoritarian. Because we were left wing

305

00:15:09,283 --> 00:15:13,996

Green party, all this. Ah, okay. And our boys

306

00:15:13,996 --> 00:15:16,498

were five and two at that point.

307

00:15:16,498 --> 00:15:17,916

So for our older boy,

308

00:15:17,916 --> 00:15:21,170

Felix, it was kind of hard that all of a sudden

309

00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:25,674

there was a wrong and a right and stuff. So I had

310

00:15:25,674 --> 00:15:29,386

to really adjust to many new things that I found

311

00:15:29,386 --> 00:15:34,016

in the Bible. Also, we had occult things in our

312

00:15:34,099 --> 00:15:37,144

house, like Tibetan prayer flags, like these are

313

00:15:37,144 --> 00:15:39,897

Buddhist prayers that we had around the house and

314

00:15:39,897 --> 00:15:44,151

stuff. Yeah, I prayed about a lot of things and I

315

00:15:44,151 --> 00:15:45,277

threw away a lot of

316

00:15:45,277 --> 00:15:47,404

things. I put some things into

317

00:15:48,656 --> 00:15:52,660

the stove to burn some books, many, many, many,

318

00:15:52,660 --> 00:15:53,661

many adjustments. But

319

00:15:53,661 --> 00:15:55,329

what was really nice is that

320

00:15:55,996 --> 00:15:58,957

my pen, my former pen pal, she's Melody Kaufman.

321

00:15:59,208 --> 00:16:02,127

That's her name. She got us in contact with

322

00:16:03,379 --> 00:16:07,216

a mission in Ireland, Dunmore East. And they

323

00:16:07,216 --> 00:16:09,760

got us in contact with a couple in Indiana.

324

00:16:11,011 --> 00:16:14,306

They are about 15 years older than us and they

325

00:16:14,306 --> 00:16:17,142

kind of adopted us and they came over and

326

00:16:18,227 --> 00:16:22,022

helped me a lot. I really appreciate they poured

327

00:16:22,022 --> 00:16:25,150

their heart into our lives. And what an adventure

328

00:16:25,150 --> 00:16:27,903

they came to our house. He was not a Christian

329

00:16:27,903 --> 00:16:30,614

yet, but I was. And they

330

00:16:30,614 --> 00:16:31,740

didn't know us. They just

331

00:16:31,782 --> 00:16:35,536

came over and lived with us for three weeks. Then

332

00:16:35,536 --> 00:16:36,745

they came twice a year

333

00:16:36,745 --> 00:16:38,622

and really helped us a lot,

334

00:16:38,622 --> 00:16:42,084

teaching a lot. Now we know it was a really

335

00:16:42,084 --> 00:16:45,671

adventure for them. Yeah, it was just very,

336

00:16:46,338 --> 00:16:49,425

because now we are in their age. So just think

337

00:16:49,425 --> 00:16:52,720

about that we could do the same.

338

00:16:53,011 --> 00:16:55,472

That we would travel to Mexico, for example,

339

00:16:55,472 --> 00:16:57,808

to a family living there. An unknown family.

340

00:16:57,850 --> 00:17:03,188

Wow. They really cared. Yeah, they really cared.

341

00:17:03,772 --> 00:17:06,400

So how long were you a Christian before,

342

00:17:07,735 --> 00:17:11,447

while you were still not a Christian? No, I was

343

00:17:11,447 --> 00:17:14,658

just, "Oh, that's interesting. What's going on?"

344

00:17:15,117 --> 00:17:18,328

Because I was never in contact with real

345

00:17:18,328 --> 00:17:21,290

believers before. That was the first time.

346

00:17:21,999 --> 00:17:23,333

So when they came and visited,

347

00:17:23,333 --> 00:17:24,209

that would have been the first... Yeah.

348

00:17:25,252 --> 00:17:27,629

But you became a believer three years later. And

349

00:17:27,629 --> 00:17:31,967

I had also to adjust to what my role in marriage

350

00:17:31,967 --> 00:17:34,636

would be. I think our marriage would have been

351

00:17:34,636 --> 00:17:37,639

broken if Jesus wouldn't have come in our life.

352

00:17:39,183 --> 00:17:41,810

Because the question how to submit and that I

353

00:17:41,810 --> 00:17:44,146

have to submit just came up immediately.

354

00:17:45,564 --> 00:17:48,358

My parents are divorced and my father is

355

00:17:48,358 --> 00:17:51,111

currently living with his third wife. And so

356

00:17:51,695 --> 00:17:56,158

divorce is nothing strange to me. So at some

357

00:17:56,158 --> 00:17:59,870

point, I think I would have wanted to divorce

358

00:17:59,870 --> 00:18:04,666

Heiko. But Jesus changed that. And I wouldn't say

359

00:18:04,666 --> 00:18:07,169

that I really submit. I'm really fighting for it

360

00:18:07,169 --> 00:18:11,340

still. It's just not in my nature. It really

361

00:18:11,340 --> 00:18:14,343

helped our marriage. And just think about we have

362

00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,139

no other example in our bigger family, because

363

00:18:19,139 --> 00:18:22,267

most of the couples are divorced. Most.

364

00:18:22,810 --> 00:18:25,103

I mean, our family is only us that are still

365

00:18:25,103 --> 00:18:26,730

married in the first marriage.

366

00:18:28,398 --> 00:18:31,777

My brother, her brother, my aunt, everybody is

367

00:18:31,777 --> 00:18:35,364

divorced. So this is normal. So this is not an

368

00:18:35,364 --> 00:18:39,660

example you would like to follow. So there was no

369

00:18:39,660 --> 00:18:41,703

example. Tell me more

370

00:18:41,703 --> 00:18:43,413

about this with your marriage,

371

00:18:43,914 --> 00:18:49,294

especially before you all are Christians, where,

372

00:18:49,378 --> 00:18:51,046

oh, maybe this isn't going very well,

373

00:18:51,255 --> 00:18:54,383

we can just get divorced. Talk me through that.

374

00:18:54,383 --> 00:18:58,262

And then you said, Heiko, really in the end,

375

00:18:59,596 --> 00:19:00,180

Christ saves your

376

00:19:00,180 --> 00:19:03,225

marriage. What did that look like?

377

00:19:04,017 --> 00:19:07,479

If you grew up in such a surrounding, the

378

00:19:07,479 --> 00:19:09,231

solution of divorce is just

379

00:19:09,231 --> 00:19:11,650

one solution. It's just one of

380

00:19:12,401 --> 00:19:15,571

several solutions you can have if you get into

381

00:19:15,571 --> 00:19:19,324

trouble in your marriage. So this is not special,

382

00:19:19,324 --> 00:19:23,579

I would say. We got really into trouble. We got

383

00:19:23,579 --> 00:19:27,291

situations where I have to admire that I thought

384

00:19:27,666 --> 00:19:32,254

I had everything under control. Because I'm just

385

00:19:32,254 --> 00:19:36,717

from a other point, I

386

00:19:36,717 --> 00:19:37,759

would say, oh, at this point,

387

00:19:37,759 --> 00:19:43,140

I was fine. I- nice, friendly woman, two

388

00:19:43,140 --> 00:19:46,351

healthy boys, a good job, a

389

00:19:46,351 --> 00:19:48,645

nice house. So everything is

390

00:19:48,812 --> 00:19:50,981

everything's good. Everything is fine. Everything

391

00:19:50,981 --> 00:19:54,026

is under control. That's the way it should be. So

392

00:19:54,026 --> 00:19:56,862

everything is fine.

393

00:19:56,862 --> 00:19:58,572

But then I came to a point

394

00:19:58,572 --> 00:20:03,410

where I just have to understand that no, it's not

395

00:20:03,535 --> 00:20:06,330

me. I'm not the one who have everything under

396

00:20:06,330 --> 00:20:08,624

control, because I have to learn that I have

397

00:20:08,624 --> 00:20:11,668

nothing under control.

398

00:20:11,668 --> 00:20:12,920

This was one point when I

399

00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,633

was just, look, I said, okay, you are not the

400

00:20:17,633 --> 00:20:21,136

good one. You are not this as perfect as you

401

00:20:22,221 --> 00:20:25,223

would like to be. I think

402

00:20:25,223 --> 00:20:27,809

this was one point. And on the

403

00:20:27,851 --> 00:20:30,854

other side, it was the first time in contact with

404

00:20:30,854 --> 00:20:33,065

real believers. And I thought that

405

00:20:35,651 --> 00:20:36,568

the example of

406

00:20:36,568 --> 00:20:38,487

the power of Jesus Christ in their lives.

407

00:20:40,530 --> 00:20:43,992

So I thought this was a turning point for my life.

408

00:20:45,410 --> 00:20:47,955

The witness that you saw from those people.

409

00:20:49,998 --> 00:20:53,001

One thing I had to add, because this seems to be,

410

00:20:55,545 --> 00:20:58,507

from my perspective, this was very important,

411

00:20:58,966 --> 00:21:02,844

just to understand. I had long hair, all the

412

00:21:02,844 --> 00:21:07,182

jewelry, everything was a worldly style, I would say.

413

00:21:08,684 --> 00:21:11,561

And we had contact with quite conservative

414

00:21:11,853 --> 00:21:14,856

conservative, Beachy Amish Mennonites.

415

00:21:16,066 --> 00:21:18,360

And from my point of view, it was very important

416

00:21:23,490 --> 00:21:25,909

that they never talk about my appearance.

417

00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,454

They never talk about, oh, you have to cut your hair

418

00:21:29,454 --> 00:21:32,874

because this is unbiblical or you just have to do it like this.

419

00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:37,254

Because looking back,

420

00:21:37,504 --> 00:21:43,093

I would think that if they appear like this, to

421

00:21:43,093 --> 00:21:45,303

me, I would just rebel. I would say, okay,

422

00:21:46,304 --> 00:21:46,805

I'm done.

423

00:21:47,681 --> 00:21:49,141

It's not up to you to

424

00:21:49,141 --> 00:21:51,143

decide whether I cut my hair or not.

425

00:21:53,020 --> 00:21:54,104

He was very impressed by

426

00:21:54,104 --> 00:21:55,188

the love that they showed

427

00:21:57,065 --> 00:22:00,444

to us, especially the family that came over. It's

428

00:22:00,444 --> 00:22:02,446

a couple, Bill and Pauline Miller.

429

00:22:03,780 --> 00:22:05,866

They've become really like parents for us, right?

430

00:22:08,493 --> 00:22:10,078

And at one point, I just

431

00:22:10,871 --> 00:22:14,958

saw that, okay, I have to

432

00:22:17,044 --> 00:22:19,588

agree that I'm a sinner. I

433

00:22:19,588 --> 00:22:22,549

was full of selfishness, full of

434

00:22:24,301 --> 00:22:25,886

bad habits, whatever you call it.

435

00:22:26,261 --> 00:22:27,429

And I had to say, okay,

436

00:22:29,056 --> 00:22:32,768

I have nothing under control. So I have to say,

437

00:22:32,768 --> 00:22:34,186

okay, who is the one who's

438

00:22:34,311 --> 00:22:36,480

everything under control? The God will have

439

00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,398

everything under control, not me.

440

00:22:39,399 --> 00:22:42,319

And that was the point where I had to just say, okay,

441

00:22:44,071 --> 00:22:47,115

if you can help us with the marriage,

442

00:22:47,115 --> 00:22:49,451

if you can figure out how to do this, okay,

443

00:22:49,451 --> 00:22:50,077

that's you.

444

00:22:50,952 --> 00:22:51,745

I'm not able.

445

00:22:53,997 --> 00:22:55,999

Yeah, [indistinct] my life just cries. Yeah.

446

00:22:57,125 --> 00:23:00,212

And then many things changed in our life.

447

00:23:01,046 --> 00:23:04,132

Not immediately, not like this, but step by step.

448

00:23:05,050 --> 00:23:08,887

We had to figure out what does it mean to be a

449

00:23:08,887 --> 00:23:13,350

husband for me and a wife and how to raise

450

00:23:13,350 --> 00:23:15,894

your children. And what about money? What about

451

00:23:15,894 --> 00:23:18,522

alcohol? What about music? And what about your

452

00:23:19,856 --> 00:23:23,485

style of clothing and all these things. Although

453

00:23:23,485 --> 00:23:25,779

many things changed at this point.

454

00:23:27,155 --> 00:23:30,408

But we don't have a church in our area. So this

455

00:23:30,408 --> 00:23:33,036

was a little bit difficult for our situation,

456

00:23:33,036 --> 00:23:36,706

I would say. There were men several times to

457

00:23:36,706 --> 00:23:40,460

Indiana and had good fellowship with the people

458

00:23:40,460 --> 00:23:44,047

there. And at one time I was on the porch, just

459

00:23:44,047 --> 00:23:46,633

like a tourist looking around, nothing to do,

460

00:23:46,633 --> 00:23:50,137

just scenery, people coming and going. So and

461

00:23:50,137 --> 00:23:52,764

then they were all because the neighbors were,

462

00:23:52,806 --> 00:23:57,185

many of them were Amish. So the old Amish men

463

00:23:57,185 --> 00:23:59,813

with a huge hat with

464

00:23:59,813 --> 00:24:01,857

their bikes coming and going.

465

00:24:02,816 --> 00:24:03,900

And I was wondering, okay,

466

00:24:04,901 --> 00:24:05,861

what about these men

467

00:24:05,861 --> 00:24:08,321

about the hats? Okay, is it biblical to wear a

468

00:24:08,321 --> 00:24:09,531

hat on a bike? I don't know.

469

00:24:10,615 --> 00:24:11,700

So I just was

470

00:24:11,700 --> 00:24:14,202

wondering, okay, maybe I missed something. Okay.

471

00:24:15,245 --> 00:24:18,456

So I just tried to figure out what about a hat and a man.

472

00:24:19,708 --> 00:24:22,127

And I said, okay,

473

00:24:22,169 --> 00:24:24,921

I don't find anything like this, but I stumbled

474

00:24:25,589 --> 00:24:27,674

about the verse where it is about.

475

00:24:29,176 --> 00:24:30,093

It's against the nature

476

00:24:30,093 --> 00:24:32,179

that a man has long hair.

477

00:24:33,638 --> 00:24:34,431

I said, okay.

478

00:24:35,849 --> 00:24:38,518

I'm sitting here making fun of all these Amish men,

479

00:24:39,227 --> 00:24:40,353

but that's about you.

480

00:24:43,064 --> 00:24:45,400

So I thought about, okay, what does it mean?

481

00:24:46,776 --> 00:24:50,780

I said, okay, I think it's the point where I have

482

00:24:50,780 --> 00:24:53,992

to cut my hair because it's written down

483

00:24:53,992 --> 00:24:56,286

that it's against the nature.

484

00:24:56,286 --> 00:24:57,412

So I asked my wife

485

00:24:57,412 --> 00:24:59,164

about, oh, what do you think about this?

486

00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,875

And she had been praying for

487

00:25:01,875 --> 00:25:05,086

five months. I didn't say a word.

488

00:25:05,253 --> 00:25:06,796

So yeah, that was very important. Just looking

489

00:25:06,796 --> 00:25:07,505

back, that's very

490

00:25:07,505 --> 00:25:10,175

important because you can easily

491

00:25:10,258 --> 00:25:13,303

rebel against somebody who just, you have to, you

492

00:25:13,303 --> 00:25:14,638

have to, you have to, that's easily.

493

00:25:15,931 --> 00:25:18,516

And it's not good to be rebellious. So it's, that's

494

00:25:19,726 --> 00:25:22,479

I know now, but I just ask her, oh,

495

00:25:22,479 --> 00:25:24,397

what about cutting my hair now? And I said, okay,

496

00:25:24,940 --> 00:25:27,400

this might be a good idea, but because she's a

497

00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,654

wise lady said, okay, we should sleep a night and

498

00:25:31,947 --> 00:25:35,242

and then we'll see tomorrow. Not, not immediately,

499

00:25:35,283 --> 00:25:38,578

not in an emotional situation. Just do it. So just

500

00:25:40,580 --> 00:25:42,874

but next day I still have the desire to,

501

00:25:42,916 --> 00:25:45,543

okay, that's, that's the point now. Now it's,

502

00:25:45,543 --> 00:25:47,796

it's time to say goodbye to my long hair. And

503

00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:51,299

we did it. So that was very, very, I think one,

504

00:25:51,299 --> 00:25:53,969

one very important point for me.

505

00:25:54,928 --> 00:25:56,304

Our boys were like,

506

00:25:56,304 --> 00:25:57,305

where's dad?

507

00:25:58,598 --> 00:25:59,432

They had never seen you with short hair?

508

00:25:59,432 --> 00:26:00,600

No, never, never before.

509

00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:01,351

Never before.

510

00:26:01,643 --> 00:26:05,021

They were quite long, nice, long hair. So, so

511

00:26:05,021 --> 00:26:06,564

this was a turning point, I would say.

512

00:26:06,898 --> 00:26:07,065

Yeah.

513

00:26:07,274 --> 00:26:08,525

They ended up in the trash bin.

514

00:26:08,566 --> 00:26:09,276

Yeah.

515

00:26:09,442 --> 00:26:12,570

And our host Pauline, she called people. Guess

516

00:26:12,570 --> 00:26:14,698

what happened? She was so excited.

517

00:26:15,865 --> 00:26:16,825

I think everybody was

518

00:26:16,825 --> 00:26:18,618

waiting for that moment, kind of.

519

00:26:19,035 --> 00:26:21,705

Wow. But it's, there's a point you had made

520

00:26:21,705 --> 00:26:24,457

earlier where you had to come to the realization

521

00:26:24,541 --> 00:26:28,670

you were not in control anymore, as in not, not

522

00:26:28,670 --> 00:26:30,380

chaos, but as in God is

523

00:26:30,380 --> 00:26:32,007

in control. And I think I,

524

00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:33,717

I have everything perfect

525

00:26:33,717 --> 00:26:35,510

in life and that's not true.

526

00:26:35,510 --> 00:26:36,219

That's not true.

527

00:26:37,554 --> 00:26:41,266

And letting that go. And that was a process. I'm

528

00:26:41,266 --> 00:26:43,143

sure it didn't happen immediately. But even this

529

00:26:43,435 --> 00:26:48,231

change in how you dress and what kind of hair you

530

00:26:48,231 --> 00:26:49,607

have and like these things,

531

00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,236

how long of process was that? That you were in

532

00:26:53,236 --> 00:26:56,531

that stage of realizing, I don't have everything

533

00:26:56,531 --> 00:26:58,366

under control. I have to submit.

534

00:26:58,366 --> 00:26:59,034

Maybe a year.

535

00:26:59,951 --> 00:27:00,535

Maybe a year.

536

00:27:01,870 --> 00:27:05,332

That must have been hard at different times.

537

00:27:05,457 --> 00:27:10,628

No, it was not hard because as an atheist, you

538

00:27:10,628 --> 00:27:12,756

know that some things are wrong.

539

00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:19,846

But you still do them. And now I know, okay,

540

00:27:19,846 --> 00:27:21,056

there are more things that

541

00:27:21,056 --> 00:27:22,599

are wrong. And I try to stop

542

00:27:22,599 --> 00:27:25,560

it. I think this is the difference.

543

00:27:26,144 --> 00:27:29,314

You know that it's not good to be drunk coming at home at

544

00:27:29,814 --> 00:27:32,734

3am in the morning. And you know that it's not

545

00:27:32,734 --> 00:27:35,320

good, but you just do it

546

00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:36,780

because everybody did it.

547

00:27:37,030 --> 00:27:40,909

So this is the point. But so that these things

548

00:27:40,909 --> 00:27:43,411

were quite easily to stop immediately.

549

00:27:43,411 --> 00:27:45,747

So we stopped drinking alcohol and something like this.

550

00:27:46,373 --> 00:27:48,249

But it's more the habits,

551

00:27:48,875 --> 00:27:50,919

more the what is, what is,

552

00:27:52,587 --> 00:27:54,756

what does have a priority? These are

553

00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:57,884

difficult to readjust, I would say.

554

00:27:59,427 --> 00:28:04,265

And before Heiko became a Christian, we had major

555

00:28:04,265 --> 00:28:08,269

problems with one part of the extended family

556

00:28:08,895 --> 00:28:09,938

that really

557

00:28:11,231 --> 00:28:12,065

troubled us.

558

00:28:12,941 --> 00:28:14,359

And this, I think, added

559

00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,819

to this feeling that I

560

00:28:15,819 --> 00:28:17,529

don't have it under control.

561

00:28:17,529 --> 00:28:21,741

That I'm not the one controlling the situation. And

562

00:28:21,741 --> 00:28:23,076

there was a lot of pain

563

00:28:23,076 --> 00:28:24,452

involved in that situation.

564

00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:29,332

And it maybe kind of, yeah, I mean, it's hard to

565

00:28:29,332 --> 00:28:30,542

separate these feelings.

566

00:28:30,542 --> 00:28:31,251

Yeah.

567

00:28:32,919 --> 00:28:36,840

So because I was not against religion, for me, it

568

00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,718

was quite nice to find out, okay, there's some

569

00:28:40,969 --> 00:28:46,891

more. There is a framework of how a

570

00:28:48,810 --> 00:28:50,019

[healthy], holy

571

00:28:50,019 --> 00:28:54,065

family can be. That was quite nice for me,

572

00:28:54,107 --> 00:28:55,483

to understand this.

573

00:28:57,402 --> 00:28:59,863

And I could see that in other

574

00:28:59,863 --> 00:29:04,868

families, with all their smaller or bigger

575

00:29:05,034 --> 00:29:08,830

problems, I would say that, yeah, this was a good

576

00:29:08,830 --> 00:29:13,126

way. It was much, much better than I thought

577

00:29:13,585 --> 00:29:18,506

that my worldly way could be.

578

00:29:19,299 --> 00:29:22,969

And by example, but it's not about

579

00:29:25,346 --> 00:29:30,143

high theological constructions.

580

00:29:30,226 --> 00:29:33,771

That's later, I would say. It's more about,

581

00:29:35,106 --> 00:29:38,109

yeah, practical. What does it mean? What does it

582

00:29:38,109 --> 00:29:41,112

mean in your life? How do you deal with your

583

00:29:41,154 --> 00:29:43,156

problems, with your financial problems, with

584

00:29:43,156 --> 00:29:46,201

anger? What does it mean in your daily life?

585

00:29:46,534 --> 00:29:50,705

These things I think, if you have an example, you

586

00:29:50,705 --> 00:29:55,043

can see it. That's what helps you. Not all the

587

00:29:55,585 --> 00:30:00,882

high theological issues. No, that's second.

588

00:30:03,134 --> 00:30:06,179

That lived experience, especially when you're

589

00:30:06,179 --> 00:30:08,264

starting to read the scriptures for the first

590

00:30:08,348 --> 00:30:13,186

time again, and hearing these teachings and

591

00:30:13,186 --> 00:30:14,687

starting to say, "How do I live this?"

592

00:30:15,647 --> 00:30:18,650

I think that's an important piece for both of you

593

00:30:18,650 --> 00:30:20,109

that you've been outlining here,

594

00:30:20,401 --> 00:30:22,487

and how that affected everything from your

595

00:30:22,487 --> 00:30:25,073

appearance to bringing

596

00:30:25,073 --> 00:30:26,282

your marriage back together.

597

00:30:27,659 --> 00:30:29,744

I have to ask, there are probably people

598

00:30:29,744 --> 00:30:31,120

listening to this that maybe

599

00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:31,788

they're struggling in their

600

00:30:31,788 --> 00:30:35,542

marriage, or they've seen broken relationships,

601

00:30:35,833 --> 00:30:38,127

broken marriages in families. What would you like

602

00:30:38,169 --> 00:30:40,588

to say to those people from your own experience,

603

00:30:40,588 --> 00:30:44,884

and what God's done in you all's relationship

604

00:30:45,260 --> 00:30:47,095

through what you've been describing here? What

605

00:30:47,095 --> 00:30:48,221

would you like to say to those people?

606

00:30:49,264 --> 00:30:51,683

Fight to be obedient to what you find in the Word.

607

00:30:52,892 --> 00:30:53,726

It's sometimes so

608

00:30:53,726 --> 00:30:55,311

hard, but I studied the women

609

00:30:55,436 --> 00:31:00,191

in scripture, and I always came back to my good

610

00:31:00,191 --> 00:31:03,319

friend Pauline and asked her, "Try to be obedient

611

00:31:03,528 --> 00:31:05,780

in what you fight in the Word. Be submissive."

612

00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,368

Also, I don't know how the wording is in English,

613

00:31:11,494 --> 00:31:15,498

everything turns out to be good for those who

614

00:31:15,498 --> 00:31:17,792

love God. It's in Romans 8.28.

615

00:31:19,335 --> 00:31:22,880

Just believe in that even if things are bad. Not

616

00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,799

every situation can be solved.

617

00:31:26,301 --> 00:31:29,304

This major family trouble that I was talking about,

618

00:31:29,304 --> 00:31:30,305

it's not solved yet.

619

00:31:31,389 --> 00:31:34,601

It's still ongoing. It's an ongoing battle, but

620

00:31:34,601 --> 00:31:37,812

God wants to use even the deepest pain in our

621

00:31:37,854 --> 00:31:42,609

life in order to let us grow and, do you say,

622

00:31:42,609 --> 00:31:45,820

blossom? Become a flower for God, for His.

623

00:31:46,404 --> 00:31:48,740

So even if it costs your life, in your daily

624

00:31:48,740 --> 00:31:51,075

life, if you're not out there as a missionary,

625

00:31:51,075 --> 00:31:54,037

if you just live a simple life at home, have

626

00:31:54,037 --> 00:31:57,248

children, raise children, even these lives,

627

00:31:57,290 --> 00:32:00,543

they can be a beautiful flower for Jesus when you

628

00:32:00,543 --> 00:32:02,920

try and fight for obedience to God's Word,

629

00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:04,922

because it's His Word. It's just true from

630

00:32:04,922 --> 00:32:08,259

beginning to end, and we need to follow it,

631

00:32:08,259 --> 00:32:09,260

and He will bless that.

632

00:32:09,844 --> 00:32:10,720

For me, it was very

633

00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,222

important, and I think this is a good advice.

634

00:32:14,140 --> 00:32:16,059

I saw it at the beginning, "Oh, I have to

635

00:32:16,059 --> 00:32:19,354

understand 120% of the Bible, because I want

636

00:32:19,354 --> 00:32:21,522

to be a follower of Jesus Christ, and without

637

00:32:21,522 --> 00:32:23,524

knowing 100% of the Bible,

638

00:32:24,734 --> 00:32:25,568

who should I follow?"

639

00:32:26,486 --> 00:32:30,156

So, think about this, because I studied computer

640

00:32:30,156 --> 00:32:32,867

science, so there's a right and a wrong, and I

641

00:32:32,867 --> 00:32:35,244

have to understand everything. So I thought, "Oh,

642

00:32:35,620 --> 00:32:38,373

this will take a while." But at one point,

643

00:32:38,373 --> 00:32:40,750

I said, "Okay, no, there is no need to, because this is

644

00:32:41,626 --> 00:32:43,961

this is God's Word." And who I am,

645

00:32:45,213 --> 00:32:49,175

that I understand immediately everything,

646

00:32:52,804 --> 00:32:56,140

it is in the Bible. So I have to quit this

647

00:32:56,140 --> 00:32:59,394

thought, and just think, "Okay, I read,

648

00:33:00,478 --> 00:33:04,107

and what I understand, I try to do, step by step.

649

00:33:04,774 --> 00:33:06,859

Till now, I don't understand everything."

650

00:33:06,859 --> 00:33:08,695

And that's fine, that's fine, because I'm a human

651

00:33:08,695 --> 00:33:11,948

being, I'm not God. But just understand,

652

00:33:12,490 --> 00:33:15,660

just read, understand, and try with the Holy

653

00:33:15,660 --> 00:33:18,955

Spirit to do what you understand, step by step,

654

00:33:18,955 --> 00:33:22,542

not everything at one, not just go into deep and

655

00:33:22,542 --> 00:33:25,795

dig and dig and dig until you know, if you

656

00:33:26,087 --> 00:33:29,257

understand 80%, and you know that's right, and

657

00:33:29,257 --> 00:33:32,218

there's 20% missing, just try to do it.

658

00:33:33,428 --> 00:33:35,680

I think he came up with the question, Sabine, do

659

00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,434

you really believe that there were people living

660

00:33:39,559 --> 00:33:43,104

on this earth being close to 1000 years old?

661

00:33:43,104 --> 00:33:45,356

That's crazy, I don't want to believe that.

662

00:33:46,065 --> 00:33:49,819

So he had to let go these questions. Yes definitely.

663

00:33:49,819 --> 00:33:53,281

I think these can be relevant for somebody,

664

00:33:53,281 --> 00:33:57,076

and they were relevant for me. And I still don't

665

00:33:57,076 --> 00:33:59,871

understand how this could

666

00:33:59,871 --> 00:34:01,456

be. So there are theories

667

00:34:01,706 --> 00:34:07,003

why, but is it so important? That's always the

668

00:34:07,003 --> 00:34:10,381

question. What is important? I just figure out,

669

00:34:10,381 --> 00:34:14,635

okay, you on a daily basis, you go into your car

670

00:34:14,635 --> 00:34:16,554

and start your engine.

671

00:34:16,554 --> 00:34:18,514

So do you understand

672

00:34:18,556 --> 00:34:21,934

everything about your engine? No, you don't. But

673

00:34:21,934 --> 00:34:26,063

it starts, it runs, that's fine. So just,

674

00:34:27,023 --> 00:34:29,734

that's the way it's just, it's God's word, and

675

00:34:29,734 --> 00:34:33,112

it's true. Just read it,

676

00:34:33,112 --> 00:34:34,614

and do what you understand,

677

00:34:35,156 --> 00:34:39,452

and go on. And maybe you have to at one point to

678

00:34:39,452 --> 00:34:43,664

skip a part and go back a year later, go back,

679

00:34:43,664 --> 00:34:46,209

maybe have you more understanding of this special

680

00:34:46,209 --> 00:34:48,920

part, but go on, just do what you understand.

681

00:34:50,755 --> 00:34:53,508

This sounds similar to what you were

682

00:34:53,508 --> 00:34:57,178

saying about how you felt like you had to be in

683

00:34:57,178 --> 00:34:58,930

control, like you were in control of everything,

684

00:34:59,180 --> 00:35:02,600

and everything's okay. And when it comes to,

685

00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,686

say, Christianity or the Bible, well, I'm not

686

00:35:05,686 --> 00:35:07,855

going to be, until I

687

00:35:07,855 --> 00:35:09,607

understand it all, it's felt like

688

00:35:09,607 --> 00:35:14,111

I have to understand it before. It seems to me

689

00:35:14,111 --> 00:35:16,697

those are a similar thing. Those are maybe even

690

00:35:16,739 --> 00:35:19,158

the same thing for you, and having to let that

691

00:35:19,158 --> 00:35:20,993

go. Yeah, let it go. Just,

692

00:35:21,369 --> 00:35:24,038

it's, I'm not so important.

693

00:35:25,498 --> 00:35:30,670

My emotions are not so important. It's there from

694

00:35:30,670 --> 00:35:32,672

God, and that's good, that's good. But they are

695

00:35:32,672 --> 00:35:36,509

not so important. My understanding is not so

696

00:35:36,509 --> 00:35:38,594

important. Just what I understand I would try

697

00:35:38,594 --> 00:35:42,139

to do, and just to give up, to just do that,

698

00:35:42,139 --> 00:35:44,016

okay, God is under control.

699

00:35:44,559 --> 00:35:46,477

He's the one who knows what

700

00:35:46,519 --> 00:35:47,478

is best for me.

701

00:35:49,647 --> 00:35:50,982

So I'm going to do a slight pivot

702

00:35:50,982 --> 00:35:52,859

here on the, in the

703

00:35:52,859 --> 00:35:54,360

story. You've mentioned how you

704

00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,696

had interactions with different Mennonites and

705

00:35:56,696 --> 00:35:59,699

things, Indiana, your pen pal, and so forth.

706

00:36:00,533 --> 00:36:04,495

But you all live in Germany. There aren't, if I

707

00:36:04,495 --> 00:36:06,706

understand correctly, many Anabaptists or any

708

00:36:06,706 --> 00:36:09,500

Anabaptists in the area where you live, right? So

709

00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:12,128

talk to me about that and the challenges of

710

00:36:12,879 --> 00:36:15,047

where do we go to church? How do we find a

711

00:36:15,047 --> 00:36:16,883

community of believers to be a part of?

712

00:36:17,925 --> 00:36:20,428

I think we would like to see

713

00:36:22,138 --> 00:36:24,682

more churches on a

714

00:36:24,682 --> 00:36:26,893

biblical standard with true believers.

715

00:36:28,269 --> 00:36:32,231

And this is, I think this is, this should be the

716

00:36:32,231 --> 00:36:36,694

goal. And it's not easy to, because we,

717

00:36:37,695 --> 00:36:40,990

there's a lot of influence from the world,

718

00:36:41,949 --> 00:36:45,661

a lot of influence, a lot of how to think about

719

00:36:45,661 --> 00:36:48,414

situations, how to deal with the situation, how

720

00:36:48,414 --> 00:36:51,083

to deal with family problems. There are many,

721

00:36:51,584 --> 00:36:53,252

a lot of influence out of the world.

722

00:36:54,921 --> 00:36:58,132

Yeah, we would long for, how would you say that,

723

00:36:58,382 --> 00:37:01,969

revival in all German churches. Yeah. There's a

724

00:37:01,969 --> 00:37:05,264

lot of influence coming from psychology, I think.

725

00:37:06,641 --> 00:37:09,018

I'm just reading a book about that, that was

726

00:37:09,018 --> 00:37:11,520

written in 1993 and it's

727

00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,898

just an eye opener to what

728

00:37:14,732 --> 00:37:17,485

we as German churches practice at. Sometimes it

729

00:37:17,485 --> 00:37:20,655

just comes back from thinking in terms of

730

00:37:20,738 --> 00:37:24,158

psychology, like solving problems through

731

00:37:24,158 --> 00:37:26,452

counseling and stuff and not to,

732

00:37:27,745 --> 00:37:31,290

yeah, I have to repent for my sin and I have to change wrong

733

00:37:31,290 --> 00:37:34,377

attitudes and stuff. It's really a struggle for

734

00:37:34,418 --> 00:37:37,546

us. It seems to be kind of dark over here in

735

00:37:37,546 --> 00:37:39,215

Europe, like spiritually speaking.

736

00:37:40,925 --> 00:37:42,718

And I don't have the numbers in front of me, but

737

00:37:42,718 --> 00:37:44,971

I had done some research on the decline of the

738

00:37:44,971 --> 00:37:48,307

church in Europe from the last hundred years. And

739

00:37:48,307 --> 00:37:51,227

it's shocking. You look at something like

740

00:37:51,227 --> 00:37:53,771

the Netherlands, it was 95% a hundred years ago,

741

00:37:53,771 --> 00:37:56,065

we're Christians. And you know, okay, you could

742

00:37:56,065 --> 00:37:58,150

argue how many of them were real, of course, but

743

00:37:58,150 --> 00:38:02,405

the number today would be only 35%. And that's a

744

00:38:03,114 --> 00:38:05,866

pretty sharp decline in a hundred years for a

745

00:38:05,866 --> 00:38:08,869

demographic. And now they're at the point where

746

00:38:08,869 --> 00:38:12,248

the majority would claim atheism of the

747

00:38:12,248 --> 00:38:13,624

population. I don't know what

748

00:38:13,624 --> 00:38:14,542

the numbers are for Germany,

749

00:38:14,542 --> 00:38:16,877

but I know it's probably be some similarities there.

750

00:38:17,420 --> 00:38:19,964

And that's a hard thing to wrestle with.

751

00:38:20,256 --> 00:38:21,841

I'm hearing what you're saying there. And then

752

00:38:21,841 --> 00:38:23,509

what you were describing, you may have

753

00:38:24,385 --> 00:38:26,262

people like that were in your situation who were

754

00:38:26,262 --> 00:38:28,139

registered in the church, but you only go once a

755

00:38:28,139 --> 00:38:30,099

year. And it's, I mean, none of it's real anyway.

756

00:38:30,766 --> 00:38:35,104

I think in former times, like in the times of my

757

00:38:35,104 --> 00:38:38,149

parents, there was some Christian values in the

758

00:38:38,149 --> 00:38:39,317

daily life.

759

00:38:39,317 --> 00:38:42,778

Like when I grew up, if you get divorced,

760

00:38:42,778 --> 00:38:46,032

oh, this was bad. If you was a child with only

761

00:38:46,032 --> 00:38:48,492

one with us, with a father

762

00:38:48,492 --> 00:38:51,495

or the mother, this was bad.

763

00:38:51,537 --> 00:38:55,499

So this was just an awful situation for a child.

764

00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,754

But nowadays this is normal. So these things

765

00:38:59,837 --> 00:39:03,841

changed as well. So the cultural Christianity and

766

00:39:03,841 --> 00:39:05,009

the values, they changed.

767

00:39:05,259 --> 00:39:06,427

They are no longer there.

768

00:39:06,927 --> 00:39:09,221

And they come into the churches. I mean, in more

769

00:39:09,221 --> 00:39:11,307

liberal churches, it's kind of normal to be

770

00:39:11,307 --> 00:39:15,311

divorced by now. Also, we see pop culture coming

771

00:39:15,311 --> 00:39:20,191

into many of the churches. Yeah, it's many things

772

00:39:20,357 --> 00:39:23,569

that add to the decline of the churches here.

773

00:39:24,445 --> 00:39:27,823

So what you all experienced of saving your marriage

774

00:39:27,823 --> 00:39:29,950

and holding your marriage together would actually

775

00:39:29,950 --> 00:39:31,952

be unusual in some ways.

776

00:39:32,745 --> 00:39:34,413

You did something that was almost

777

00:39:34,413 --> 00:39:36,540

counter-cultural, if that makes sense.

778

00:39:36,832 --> 00:39:38,667

Yeah, Jesus said, Jesus did it, not me.

779

00:39:38,918 --> 00:39:40,961

Yeah, well, okay. Sorry, I should reframe that.

780

00:39:41,378 --> 00:39:43,964

Yeah, and how Christ saves your marriage and

781

00:39:43,964 --> 00:39:45,091

brings you back together,

782

00:39:45,925 --> 00:39:48,302

that's an unusual thing. You actually went

783

00:39:48,803 --> 00:39:50,596

the different direction, whereas maybe in the past, that

784

00:39:50,596 --> 00:39:51,347

wouldn't have been so unusual.

785

00:39:52,139 --> 00:39:57,561

Yeah, and we face that people in our area, in our

786

00:39:57,561 --> 00:39:59,814

surrounding, like our family,

787

00:40:01,649 --> 00:40:04,568

many don't understand the way we did it. They

788

00:40:04,568 --> 00:40:06,821

don't understand because they think, "Oh,

789

00:40:07,279 --> 00:40:09,448

that's not good. That's

790

00:40:09,448 --> 00:40:10,616

just the wrong way." Yeah.

791

00:40:12,368 --> 00:40:16,288

And I'm going to guess that is a large part

792

00:40:16,288 --> 00:40:20,126

of your experience is living in a way that is

793

00:40:20,251 --> 00:40:23,254

counter to the culture around you. You're doing

794

00:40:23,254 --> 00:40:24,296

things that are different.

795

00:40:25,131 --> 00:40:27,550

Has that been hard over the years?

796

00:40:28,008 --> 00:40:30,010

Sometimes, yeah. So we are

797

00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:35,266

grateful that in our time without Jesus Christ,

798

00:40:35,266 --> 00:40:37,268

we were used to have to make decisions that are

799

00:40:37,309 --> 00:40:42,940

not popular. So we are somehow used to be not

800

00:40:43,816 --> 00:40:50,030

mainstream. So that was a good thing we know.

801

00:40:50,614 --> 00:40:54,118

But nowadays, it's sometimes quite hard to be

802

00:40:54,535 --> 00:40:56,704

different. Yeah, definitely.

803

00:40:57,705 --> 00:41:00,416

Like me wearing the head covering. Sometimes I

804

00:41:00,416 --> 00:41:02,543

feel that our boys will get mocked because they

805

00:41:02,543 --> 00:41:03,419

have a mom that wears

806

00:41:03,419 --> 00:41:04,920

something on her head. Yeah.

807

00:41:05,045 --> 00:41:06,463

For what, and especially, but

808

00:41:06,463 --> 00:41:07,673

nobody knows for what reason.

809

00:41:07,882 --> 00:41:10,676

Yeah, people don't understand it in our country.

810

00:41:10,968 --> 00:41:12,511

Yeah, I was getting, do you want to talk more

811

00:41:12,511 --> 00:41:15,014

about that? Like, yeah, I was wondering how

812

00:41:15,055 --> 00:41:18,100

does society look at that in where you live?

813

00:41:18,642 --> 00:41:20,019

Would it just be so unusual

814

00:41:20,019 --> 00:41:21,520

they don't even know how to...

815

00:41:21,896 --> 00:41:22,438

They don't ask.

816

00:41:22,438 --> 00:41:22,813

...process.

817

00:41:23,063 --> 00:41:24,523

They just stare at me.

818

00:41:25,524 --> 00:41:28,652

I mean, I'm guessing they would assume that you

819

00:41:28,652 --> 00:41:30,362

are some kind of religious person and that's

820

00:41:30,404 --> 00:41:32,948

why you do it or would they? Yeah.

821

00:41:33,073 --> 00:41:36,410

I would assume so. And I sometimes have the

822

00:41:36,410 --> 00:41:38,370

impression that they might be thinking that

823

00:41:38,370 --> 00:41:41,540

I'm a Muslim or something. I don't know. But I

824

00:41:41,540 --> 00:41:44,668

really don't know. I don't have many

825

00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,922

questions concerning that. Sometimes there is a

826

00:41:47,922 --> 00:41:51,008

person who would ask and then I would explain and

827

00:41:51,008 --> 00:41:54,595

then, oh, yeah, you do it like this. And I do it

828

00:41:54,595 --> 00:41:56,764

like that. And that's fine. So we are very

829

00:41:56,805 --> 00:42:00,309

tolerant here in Europe. But it feels very

830

00:42:00,309 --> 00:42:04,230

lonely, especially actually in the churches

831

00:42:05,981 --> 00:42:11,028

because they know more about 1st Corinthians

832

00:42:11,028 --> 00:42:13,656

11 than the normal German

833

00:42:13,656 --> 00:42:16,158

person that would meet me.

834

00:42:17,117 --> 00:42:20,287

Yeah. And yeah, in the churches, I face kind of

835

00:42:20,287 --> 00:42:21,580

that, okay, you are ultra

836

00:42:21,580 --> 00:42:22,873

conservative and you are

837

00:42:22,915 --> 00:42:27,378

legalistic and we are not. We are free. We are

838

00:42:27,378 --> 00:42:31,423

more free. We don't have to do this. And yeah,

839

00:42:32,174 --> 00:42:36,470

right in the beginning of my walk with Jesus, I

840

00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:39,556

had found a church in our area and we went to the

841

00:42:39,556 --> 00:42:42,559

church and Heiko was not a believer at that time.

842

00:42:42,851 --> 00:42:43,894

And the boys, of course,

843

00:42:43,894 --> 00:42:44,687

weren't believers because

844

00:42:44,728 --> 00:42:50,234

they were still small. And after a while in this

845

00:42:50,234 --> 00:42:52,319

church, it happened to be that a woman

846

00:42:52,820 --> 00:42:56,740

preached and they allowed women to preach in

847

00:42:56,740 --> 00:42:59,576

general. There wasn't a female preacher, but

848

00:42:59,576 --> 00:43:03,497

when the pastor was, I don't know, on vacation or

849

00:43:03,497 --> 00:43:05,666

something, they asked random people also,

850

00:43:06,625 --> 00:43:11,088

including women. Then I addressed the pastor and

851

00:43:11,088 --> 00:43:16,927

I asked him why, as it is in the Bible, that we

852

00:43:16,927 --> 00:43:20,681

as women shouldn't teach and preaching is

853

00:43:20,681 --> 00:43:26,228

teaching. And I couldn't

854

00:43:27,271 --> 00:43:28,856

stay in a church where women are

855

00:43:28,897 --> 00:43:33,402

preaching as it is against the scripture. And to

856

00:43:33,402 --> 00:43:36,905

make it short, he said, okay, if you would leave

857

00:43:36,905 --> 00:43:40,034

our church and go to a more conservative church,

858

00:43:41,660 --> 00:43:43,495

your husband and your children will not become

859

00:43:43,537 --> 00:43:46,081

Christian because they are too strict. It's

860

00:43:46,081 --> 00:43:51,128

legalistic and don't do that. And I was just like

861

00:43:51,378 --> 00:43:54,840

crying and crying and I said, well, I'm in a

862

00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,761

conflict here. My conscience says it's not right

863

00:43:58,761 --> 00:44:04,391

and I cannot agree with it. And yeah, I then left

864

00:44:04,391 --> 00:44:08,103

the situation and prayed and I praise God that

865

00:44:08,479 --> 00:44:10,898

they became Christians despite extremely

866

00:44:10,898 --> 00:44:12,775

conservative Christians in our lives.

867

00:44:13,108 --> 00:44:16,820

And on the other side, as an unbelieving husband

868

00:44:16,820 --> 00:44:20,616

following a believing wife into a church service,

869

00:44:21,283 --> 00:44:26,455

it's very interesting to look from a different

870

00:44:26,455 --> 00:44:27,498

point of view from

871

00:44:27,498 --> 00:44:29,917

outside or just what's going on.

872

00:44:30,459 --> 00:44:33,545

And it's very interesting and just I think that's

873

00:44:33,545 --> 00:44:35,631

very important for us believers now

874

00:44:36,173 --> 00:44:39,843

that somebody from outside can quite easily

875

00:44:39,843 --> 00:44:45,682

identify who you are following easily, very easy.

876

00:44:46,308 --> 00:44:48,936

Just understand if you if they have the church

877

00:44:48,936 --> 00:44:51,605

service and at the end of the church service,

878

00:44:51,605 --> 00:44:55,359

you're gathering maybe a cup of tea and having a

879

00:44:55,359 --> 00:44:57,986

small talk and just you just stay there and

880

00:44:57,986 --> 00:45:01,698

hear what they're talking about. When you are a

881

00:45:01,698 --> 00:45:05,994

part of a football club, so and after the game,

882

00:45:06,620 --> 00:45:11,375

what do you talk about? About football. So after

883

00:45:11,375 --> 00:45:14,670

the church service, what do you talk about?

884

00:45:16,171 --> 00:45:19,967

If you talk about football or your vacation or

885

00:45:19,967 --> 00:45:24,221

your new car, that sounds from an outside

886

00:45:24,221 --> 00:45:28,142

perspective. Interesting, I would say. And then

887

00:45:28,142 --> 00:45:30,436

you easily can see, okay, they talk about the

888

00:45:30,436 --> 00:45:33,564

sermon. They talk about, oh, what, what does it

889

00:45:33,564 --> 00:45:35,816

for me? What's going on?

890

00:45:35,816 --> 00:45:36,984

Or what the scripture says?

891

00:45:37,359 --> 00:45:41,113

Or I had, I had a situation in my life doing this

892

00:45:41,113 --> 00:45:44,700

and that. So it's, it's, it's, you see what's

893

00:45:44,741 --> 00:45:48,370

going on in their lives by just, it was so

894

00:45:48,370 --> 00:45:50,372

interesting. The first church was really kind

895

00:45:50,372 --> 00:45:54,293

of liberal. They also had a band playing with

896

00:45:54,293 --> 00:45:57,045

worship songs and stuff. And you and Heiko wasn't

897

00:45:57,045 --> 00:45:59,381

very impressed. He went along. He was just

898

00:45:59,381 --> 00:46:02,634

curious, but he wasn't very impressed. And then

899

00:46:02,801 --> 00:46:05,220

during that time, sometime we got in connection

900

00:46:05,220 --> 00:46:09,433

with a mission in Ireland and we made a trip to

901

00:46:09,433 --> 00:46:12,769

Ireland just as a family trip. And I asked him, I

902

00:46:12,769 --> 00:46:14,521

would like if we go to Ireland, I would like

903

00:46:14,563 --> 00:46:16,815

to just visit the Mennonites there. I would just

904

00:46:16,815 --> 00:46:18,859

be there on a Sunday and

905

00:46:18,859 --> 00:46:19,985

visit the church service.

906

00:46:20,861 --> 00:46:23,989

And so we, we planned the trip according to that

907

00:46:23,989 --> 00:46:26,408

and we stayed in Waterford and I went on the

908

00:46:26,408 --> 00:46:28,911

Sunday morning to the church service. And then

909

00:46:28,911 --> 00:46:31,747

Dan Yoder, he was the bishop at that time of the

910

00:46:31,747 --> 00:46:35,209

church. He said, well Sabine, you would like to

911

00:46:35,209 --> 00:46:38,462

invite your family. And I was like, oh my, Heiko,

912

00:46:38,754 --> 00:46:42,841

he just looks so hippy like. But anyway, I said,

913

00:46:43,383 --> 00:46:46,053

yes, I'll ask my husband and then if we can,

914

00:46:46,053 --> 00:46:49,556

if we can, if we can go come, we'll come. And

915

00:46:49,556 --> 00:46:51,433

then I asked him, he said, yes, why not?

916

00:46:51,433 --> 00:46:52,226

I was curious.

917

00:46:52,226 --> 00:46:52,518

He was curious.

918

00:46:53,352 --> 00:46:55,812

Interesting. And then we came back from, I'm

919

00:46:55,812 --> 00:46:58,065

sorry. We came back from, from that,

920

00:46:58,357 --> 00:47:00,901

I don't know, was it a tea break, coffee break,

921

00:47:00,901 --> 00:47:03,570

whatever. I don't remember that. But we came home

922

00:47:03,612 --> 00:47:06,156

to the apartment that we had rented for the

923

00:47:06,156 --> 00:47:09,034

vacation and he said, well, this is different.

924

00:47:09,535 --> 00:47:12,246

I really appreciate these people. They, they

925

00:47:12,246 --> 00:47:15,874

follow, they follow Jesus and I can see that.

926

00:47:15,874 --> 00:47:16,625

That's what he said.

927

00:47:17,292 --> 00:47:22,047

Wow. And so you did go then to, to their home, I

928

00:47:22,047 --> 00:47:23,632

think, I guess, like for a meal or something.

929

00:47:24,007 --> 00:47:26,009

That's so interesting because I interviewed Dan,

930

00:47:26,593 --> 00:47:29,555

you know, last year that was lovely, you know,

931

00:47:29,638 --> 00:47:31,390

to hear his, his story.

932

00:47:31,807 --> 00:47:34,601

And he even said being not a believer, this is

933

00:47:34,601 --> 00:47:38,522

really a humble man. He really appreciated

934

00:47:39,189 --> 00:47:40,315

Dan's attitude.

935

00:47:41,608 --> 00:47:43,318

That's so interesting because you'd been told

936

00:47:43,318 --> 00:47:45,320

previously that, oh, if,

937

00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,114

if you go this direction,

938

00:47:47,114 --> 00:47:49,700

that'll be legalistic and you'll, and the rest of

939

00:47:49,700 --> 00:47:51,451

your family won't come to Jesus, which,

940

00:47:52,119 --> 00:47:55,038

oof, that's a heavy thing for someone to, to tell

941

00:47:55,038 --> 00:47:58,208

a new believer for starters. But also it,

942

00:47:59,001 --> 00:48:00,752

that wasn't the point, it sounds like.

943

00:48:00,961 --> 00:48:01,295

No, it was not.

944

00:48:01,295 --> 00:48:03,839

You know, the legalism and the rules and all of

945

00:48:03,839 --> 00:48:06,341

that, it was the love that you saw, right?

946

00:48:06,675 --> 00:48:09,803

That the way people interacted with you, it feels

947

00:48:09,803 --> 00:48:12,431

like that's, that's the real point here.

948

00:48:13,265 --> 00:48:16,476

Yes. If you, if you want to do something, just do

949

00:48:16,476 --> 00:48:18,020

it. Don't talk about it.

950

00:48:23,066 --> 00:48:25,193

You should see it in your life.

951

00:48:25,402 --> 00:48:26,320

It needs to be authentic.

952

00:48:26,653 --> 00:48:27,779

It needs to be authentic.

953

00:48:28,322 --> 00:48:32,826

And it's, yeah. And we, we met different

954

00:48:32,826 --> 00:48:36,330

other, we were in different church services and,

955

00:48:36,330 --> 00:48:41,209

and I could easily, easily understand what's

956

00:48:41,209 --> 00:48:42,294

going on in this church

957

00:48:42,294 --> 00:48:43,503

and what's going on in this

958

00:48:43,503 --> 00:48:45,756

church. And just think about if you, if you

959

00:48:45,756 --> 00:48:46,715

invite some, some

960

00:48:46,715 --> 00:48:48,383

unbelieving neighbor, they would see

961

00:48:48,383 --> 00:48:49,760

what's going on at the church.

962

00:48:50,010 --> 00:48:51,595

They definitely would understand.

963

00:48:52,179 --> 00:48:54,556

And the pastor and our first church even praised

964

00:48:54,556 --> 00:48:57,309

his long, beautiful hair from the pulpit.

965

00:48:58,810 --> 00:49:02,064

So, yeah, he wanted to win him, like, yeah.

966

00:49:02,522 --> 00:49:03,482

Of course.

967

00:49:03,774 --> 00:49:06,526

And Dan never addressed, Dan Yoder never addressed

968

00:49:06,526 --> 00:49:08,737

the issue of his long hair, but he just

969

00:49:09,446 --> 00:49:12,658

invited him, was friendly, took interest, talked

970

00:49:12,658 --> 00:49:16,787

about his beliefs and stuff and was more winning.

971

00:49:17,663 --> 00:49:21,458

It sounds like a theme in this story is

972

00:49:21,458 --> 00:49:24,378

hospitality as well. Like the way people

973

00:49:25,212 --> 00:49:28,298

had you all into their lives and

974

00:49:28,298 --> 00:49:31,510

their homes and cared about you, right?

975

00:49:32,427 --> 00:49:37,683

In a way, it's authentic. It's not, it's not to

976

00:49:37,683 --> 00:49:41,770

just please you to, to, to be especially loving

977

00:49:41,937 --> 00:49:45,899

or whatever. And so just the way it is, just it's

978

00:49:45,899 --> 00:49:48,527

authentic. It's just the way they live.

979

00:49:50,195 --> 00:49:52,656

It's not something to do something special, just

980

00:49:52,656 --> 00:49:55,283

an extra meal, extra cake or whatever.

981

00:49:55,867 --> 00:49:58,578

Nothing like this is just the way it is the way

982

00:49:58,578 --> 00:50:00,122

that's the way I live.

983

00:50:00,747 --> 00:50:01,540

Sharing the life.

984

00:50:01,873 --> 00:50:03,375

Yeah, sharing the life. Yeah.

985

00:50:04,751 --> 00:50:06,503

There's a real lesson there, I think,

986

00:50:07,087 --> 00:50:09,840

for all of us, because it's

987

00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:11,133

easy to forget how powerful

988

00:50:11,133 --> 00:50:13,927

that can be. So both of you have shared a

989

00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:16,263

powerful story of the power

990

00:50:16,263 --> 00:50:17,431

of Christ in your lives and how

991

00:50:18,098 --> 00:50:20,934

that is not just brought you back to

992

00:50:20,934 --> 00:50:22,269

Christianity, but deeply

993

00:50:22,269 --> 00:50:24,980

impacted how you live and how you raise

994

00:50:24,980 --> 00:50:27,482

your family, how you do marriage, all of these things.

995

00:50:28,650 --> 00:50:30,277

There's probably people listening to this

996

00:50:30,277 --> 00:50:33,155

that are maybe questioning the power of Christ in

997

00:50:33,155 --> 00:50:34,823

their lives and saying, is this really,

998

00:50:35,782 --> 00:50:38,368

will it make a difference? It doesn't matter that much.

999

00:50:38,910 --> 00:50:41,455

I'm not really sure. And so forth.

00:50:42,748 --> 00:50:44,332

What would you like to say to those people that

00:50:44,332 --> 00:50:45,250

are questioning the power

00:50:45,250 --> 00:50:46,126

of Christ in their lives?

00:50:47,043 --> 00:50:48,545

Try it. Try it.

00:50:50,046 --> 00:50:53,175

Try it out. Jesus is faithful. Yeah. And it's

00:50:53,175 --> 00:50:56,553

powerful. And it starts with small things.

00:50:57,596 --> 00:51:01,183

Just try it out. Don't think about, oh, could

00:51:01,183 --> 00:51:02,601

this be real or is it

00:51:02,601 --> 00:51:04,311

really working or what does it

00:51:04,311 --> 00:51:05,604

mean? Just do it.

00:51:06,938 --> 00:51:11,526

And be humble and be open to correction.

00:51:12,944 --> 00:51:14,529

I think one important thing is,

00:51:14,571 --> 00:51:18,658

it's, you are not so important. Yourself, your

00:51:18,658 --> 00:51:21,077

wishes, your, whatever you think your desires

00:51:21,203 --> 00:51:22,829

are not so important.

00:51:23,079 --> 00:51:25,540

Just, I would say humble

00:51:25,540 --> 00:51:29,878

yourself and just find out what's right. Just,

00:51:30,629 --> 00:51:33,673

it's not so important to drink beer every evening.

00:51:34,341 --> 00:51:35,425

What does it mean?

00:51:36,009 --> 00:51:37,886

It's not so important to go to

00:51:37,928 --> 00:51:43,266

a soccer match every Sunday morning. It's not so important.

00:51:43,683 --> 00:51:45,894

Think about eternity. Think about

00:51:45,894 --> 00:51:49,189

what is really important in your life and not

00:51:49,189 --> 00:51:54,110

these entertainment stuff and things. Yeah.

00:51:55,987 --> 00:51:59,783

Well, Heiko, Sabine, thank you so much for

00:51:59,783 --> 00:52:01,868

sharing your story. You've

00:52:01,868 --> 00:52:02,786

given us a lot to think about

00:52:02,869 --> 00:52:06,248

today. Actually, it's not our story. It's God's

00:52:06,248 --> 00:52:09,334

story. Jesus is a storyteller. That's so true.

00:52:09,876 --> 00:52:12,963

Yeah. That's so true. And just those lessons of,

00:52:14,256 --> 00:52:16,842

like you're saying, humility, but also that piece of

00:52:18,051 --> 00:52:20,262

we're not in control. God is in control and

00:52:20,262 --> 00:52:23,181

letting go of that. Yeah. That's a lot to think

00:52:23,181 --> 00:52:26,309

about. Wow. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for

00:52:26,309 --> 00:52:27,310

sharing today. Thank you.

00:52:28,311 --> 00:52:29,271

Thanks for listening to this

00:52:29,271 --> 00:52:32,899

episode with Heiko and Sabine. In that story,

00:52:32,899 --> 00:52:34,901

they mentioned Dan Yoder and the church there

00:52:34,901 --> 00:52:37,028

in Ireland. We had actually been in Ireland last

00:52:37,028 --> 00:52:39,447

year and I had the privilege of interviewing Dan,

00:52:39,447 --> 00:52:41,408

so you can find that episode linked in the

00:52:41,408 --> 00:52:44,327

description down below. Thanks again for

00:52:44,327 --> 00:52:46,830

listening. You can find all our content over on

00:52:46,830 --> 00:52:49,624

our website at anabaptistperspectives.org.

00:52:49,958 --> 00:52:52,419

And make sure to subscribe or follow us on your

00:52:52,419 --> 00:52:56,006

favorite podcast app. And we'll catch you in the next episode.