That's the other thing about this movement is that they're not oversimplifying it
anymore, like where it used to be like, oh, you're having panic attacks.
Take this pill.
The trauma informed movement is actually saying, actually,
there's a relational aspect
that is so needed for people who have experienced trauma.
And so I wonder if the corollary for that in our church setting,
maybe the lesson for us is that respect
and humility in our relationships
is more healing for trauma than prescribing a Bible verse
or thinking that because I prayed for you, you should be better now.
Janelle,
thank you for joining us for this episode.
We're here to talk about trauma informed churches.
So to begin.
How did you become interested in helping churches
become trauma informed?
Well, little by little,
again, birthed in my own experience,
of sitting with people who were clearly
their bodies were under distress in the moment.
So sitting with someone who, who was trying to talk but couldn't
Early on in my coaching experience, I had a client
who who had a complete freeze response, like in their body.
They weren't able to speak.
They weren't able to move.
And thankfully, I had had enough training that I knew
what to do to help with that response in the body.
so recognizing that it's real, that the brain and the nervous system
actually can be so activated
by a memory or something from the past
that in the present we're not functioning well or barely functioning at all.
So first of all, actually encountering
what trauma can do to a person's body and to their health,
and then also bridging that into the life of the church,
realizing how quickly, how easy it can be
to make judgments of that when we don't understand what it is
like when we see someone who's not able, to speak in the way that they would
want to, or a very opposite response is a fight response, right?
So like just the lashing out that can happen when we're afraid.
so when I headed into studies to learn
better how to support and care for people with the more difficult
experiences, I actually didn't have a word for what I was looking for.
I just I knew there was more to learn.
And I think that the word that what I found in this idea
of being trauma informed kind of encapsulates
the thing that I was seeing a need for in our communities.
I didn't realize yet that people in mainstream communities,
like schools and businesses and hospitals were also asking a similar question.
Like they were saying, we're trying to help, but
there's something we're not understanding that sometimes gets in the way.
And awareness was growing at large about the impacts of traumatic life
events on human beings long term emotional health or mental health
and the ways that it was interfering with healthy functioning at work
or in families or in any kind of community trying to come together.
So this phrase, trauma informed care
is now it is a mainstream idea,
but I think it has a lot of, again,
it has a lot to call us to even in our church settings.
So when we talk about being trauma informed, we're not saying
we should all go out and get like we shouldn't be able to treat the trauma.
It's different than that. We're not.
When we're talking about being trauma informed, it's more understanding
that it exists and what it can look like and how it can interfere.
And then and then what are the resources for help?
Because we don't want to we don't want to add more into that picture.
so I've become interested in how trauma informed
churches could better extend grace and light of Jesus.
for the people who are joining us from any place in their lives,
if we actually understood more about the threat responses in the body,
which is essentially what trauma or PTSD is,
so it's threat responses in our bodies.
if we could
understand a little more of the physicality of that,
might we be able to make more space inside
our churches for more compassion and less fear?
And would we be able to actually be able to have more presence
to people who are in trauma experiences and less pressure?
And could we have more learning and less judgment?
So where we're actually curious to understand
rather than just being like something's terribly wrong.
And we, you know, rather than the shaming and the judgment.
Before we go further into this conversation,
I think it would be helpful to define terms.
So you began to define trauma a small bit already.
But I understand that trauma is a term that can be used technically.
So when used technically, what does trauma mean? Yes.
What is trauma? Well, I went to find the definition.
To serve this purpose.
So this is the definition that's understood and accepted.
it may not be as defined as people wish, but
it can be defined as any experience
which causes a person to feel terror
or powerlessness or overwhelmed,
and that challenges their capacity to cope.
it leaves an imprint.
So this is more like the the body research now language.
It leaves an imprint on the person's nervous system,
their emotions, their body,
their learning and their relationships.
So one thing I think that's really helpful to note here is that
I think sometimes we think, well, only certain experiences qualify as traumatic.
We just have this list and then that's it.
But actually it's the way the person responds
that tells us more about if it was trauma or not.
So like if it was overwhelming for them, if they felt powerless.
if there was terror involved for them and it kept them
from being able to function in the way that they would have wanted to function.
That's when we're talking about trauma being at play.
So if we're looking at it from the perspective
of how the person experiences it, would it be possible
that you could have two people in a similar situation?
And for one, they would experience it as trauma for the other person.
They would not experience it as trauma. Yes.
That's right.
and if people want more understanding of why that is, it's multiple factors.
Again, it can be related to everything that's come in their life before.
Right?
So if it's a first encounter with being feeling powerless,
then it may not have near as big an impact.
But if that person has had lots of experiences where they have felt
powerless leading up to this one, then it brings in a whole it.
It brings in a whole,
It's like a bigger sense of that because it,
it brings an accumulated effect, I think, into that moment.
So my husband and I were talking about this recently and he said, is it
possible, for someone
to be deeply wounded, even if it wasn't the intent of the person
in who was, who they would say did the wounding?
And I say, absolutely, because we are always interacting,
not just in the moment, but with moments that have come before,
like it's present in the way we're responding to each other.
Yeah,
and that's true with trauma, too.
Adverse life experiences in childhood are one.
That's one of the things once people start reading about trauma experienced,
the way a person responds to trauma later in life has a lot to do with
some of the adverse life experiences that came before.
How widespread is trauma
and how is it
expressed by those who have experienced it?
Very good questions.
so again I, I went to see kind of what research is showing for that
because I don't have a way of answering that for the world at large.
The National Council for Mental Well-Being states that 70% of adults in
the US have experienced at least one traumatic event in their lifetime.
Okay, so that sounds big, right?
70% of us are going to be we're going to feel powerless at least once in our life.
We're going to feel overwhelmed and powerless at least once.
This doesn't mean that they're going to continue
to carry that sense of trauma with them, though.
there was another government study done on PTSD in the US that states that
8% of women and 4% of men will experience,
like post-traumatic stress disorder at some point in their lives.
And that's more what we're looking at when we're talking about this,
these trauma interactions that show up in our lives and communities.
Because.
Because it means that we're still
we're still responding in our bodies and in our thinking and in our
relationships, as if that trauma was still happening, even if it isn't.
So when we're talking about PTSD, it's as if we're living it again
now, even if it's not happening now.
So many of us can experience a traumatic event, and then we keep living
and we know it's in the past and we're not living out of it now.
But the PTSD when we're talking about PTSD,
we're talking about it's still
impeding us now, even if it's not happening now.
some examples of
what people experience.
That's what you had asked about, what people are experiencing in the moment,
even when the difficult thing is no longer happening,
they might think about it and still have panic attacks, right?
Like their heart rate will get, their heart rate will go fast
and their breathing will get heavy or and short of breath.
so it might be panic attacks.
It might be the shutdown that I told you about earlier where someone
we're talking about an event
that happened in their past and, and they start talking slower and,
and then if it's a complete freeze, they actually stop talking.
They can't they can't talk about it.
That's a trauma response.
recurring flashbacks that bring the event back
and all of those symptoms in the present, debilitating shame.
And also, I think a lot of addictions, are fueled
by this sense of unresolved trauma from somewhere before the addiction.
But we're often trying to soothe and comfort
something that's overwhelming for us.
And this helps us cope.
So addictions are another, flag
for unresolved trauma.
You have quoted somebody else as stating
that trauma is perhaps the most avoided,
ignored, belittled, denied,
misunderstood, and untreated cause of human suffering.
Do you think that this assessment is true?
And if so,
why is it that way?
well, I think there's truth in the statement.
though there are many other ways to suffer too, right?
So of course, my brain is like, well, is it at the most?
And, you know, there'd be something about that to talk about.
But so there are many ways to suffer that are not all that.
It's not all trauma related when someone is suffering.
But I think that other forms of suffering,
maybe we understand better or we know how to show up better.
Like you think about when someone dies, the community knows about it.
The community shows up for it.
The community contributes food and contributes care.
And there's these understood ways of marking that.
But usually the things that are in the realm of trauma experiences.
Those are not things that we easily share with other people, partly
because it can be triggering for us to talk about it.
Right?
If someone is experiencing abuse, they don't want to like,
talk about that everywhere or if they have experienced it.
There isn't.
There isn't a way for community to gather around and mark it.
And that's why I think it is often the most.
That's why I would say,
untreated and ignored and avoided.
Right.
We don't know how to mark things that caused this level of trauma for people.
So trauma is less understood and it is less supported.
And we are so prone to focus on behavior modifications
when we're seeing the different responses of trauma,
instead of sourcing the trauma that might lie underneath it.
That's really common with addiction treatment.
we see the addiction and of course we want the addictive behavior to stop,
but sometimes we're failing to consider that.
It's like there's a pain, there's a pain that's bringing that behavior around.
And I hope we're getting better at learning
about what that pain is and caring about that, too.
But there are other reasons.
I think, too, that we might tend to ignore or avoid
or belittle and misunderstand trauma.
one of it is that there.
It's complicated.
There's a lot to understand about trauma.
and so and how it affects the body.
And I think some of us, we just prefer
to think about these behaviors more in a spiritual lens.
It's simpler for us bad behavior.
Well, okay.
So we decide what to do about your behavior.
But to start to understand, trauma in the body
does take time and it will take education.
We prefer staying in a spiritual lens for our humanity,
then also including a physical one.
We might be uncomfortable thinking about how our brain
and body can inform our understanding of emotional health.
It just feels too complicated or too dangerous.
And so we avoid that.
But I think another thing is that it's easy to lose hope when we're walking
with someone who is experiencing trauma, because we pray for them
and they still feel the trauma, and we speak truth to them
and their body is still experiencing the trauma.
So the things that we're used to bringing comfort to ourselves
don't always stop
the responses that someone in trauma is having.
And so we if we don't understand what's happening,
we think that's all we have to offer and we can lose hope.
And that's the one thing they really need us not to do.
People who are experiencing trauma in their bodies and in their minds,
they really need people who hold hope for them
and who stay with them in that process.
So when we're out of our
known resources for helping, we easily lose hope for them.
And even worse, we can start to blame them.
We can start to say things like, well, you're just not.
You're not trying hard enough.
Or you need to do more of this or more of that.
And then that is retraumatizing
for that person because it's added shame.
So yes, I think we do avoid
and we do ignore and we do belittle and we do misunderstand.
And sometimes we add suffering.
Shouldn't be this way.
No, but learning about it helps.
That's what this is.
That's why I come back to I think if we understood it more, we would live.
We would live better.
As institutions, churches, schools
or other organizations, how can they respond well
and lovingly,
to individuals who have experienced trauma?
Well, I think that one of the things is we need to know
when we don't have everything that that individual is needing.
So being willing to source out,
I think sometimes we
hear about a need and we realize it's really big.
And our assumption is that, well,
the Lord will give us everything we need.
And I think that he does give us what we need.
But sometimes that giving to us is
an awareness of someone else who can help meet the need.
So when it comes to significant trauma, I do recommend that churches
find a Christian counseling center to partner with.
And that was something that our congregation did in Ontario.
partnership simply meant that
pastors
met with some people from a counseling agency,
asked questions about how they would handle different situations.
It was like a mutual it was a conversation to get to know each other.
And after feeling comfortable with the approaches
that they were talking about, and their understanding of Scripture
and where counseling was, in light of that, it was a place that,
our pastors felt comfortable
recommending to members in our congregation
and then provided the funding for it, so paid for members who needed counseling.
Now that payment.
I'm not saying that that has to be done,
but that is a beautiful way to support someone who's needing some care
for their significant dysregulation that comes with trauma
is to source out a place where they can receive good care,
and then to help fund that for them, because it's usually doesn't come cheap.
so I think that,
being willing to pull in
the resources and I think it's usually very, it's
very possible to find believers
who understand trauma
and who are actually trained in the treatment of it.
That's pretty important to do.
I, I don't do trauma treatment.
That's when someone needs treatment for actual trauma.
Then we talk together about who that who could provide that for them.
And I would encourage, pastors and churches to do the same,
to seek resources for them.
another thing I would recommend is that congregations consider
having a speaker come and do a much more in-depth talk
than what I, I'm not actually talking much about the impacts
of trauma on a person in this in our discussion today,
but I would recommend that if a congregation is ready and interested,
that having someone inviting someone to come and do an educational
workshop on trauma and how it
impacts the brain and the body and relationships,
would be really helpful for congregation members to hear.
And then if there is anyone
in the congregation who would like to, I think it would be lovely to
if there was someone in our congregations that we could again, support
to learn more about it and be able to at least provide supportive listening,
even if they're not doing the trauma treatment with the individual.
Yeah.
So honestly, recognizing our limitations,
being willing to do that,
I think that's an act of love in this.
And how would you answer the question for individuals,
like I asked what institutions, churches or otherwise can do?
But what would you say to individuals
who wish to care for or love,
respond lovingly to individuals who have experienced trauma?
Yes, I have a few things about that.
first of all, encourage
compassion over like management or fixing.
So first of all, it's about can you be present with them
with compassion and love for exactly where they're at?
And this comes down to, notice them.
So yes, they're you're going to notice that they're going to look more fearful
and more anxious, probably in a community setting.
But notice them and then move toward them
relationally at a pace that is right for them.
Be very aware of what they can handle.
Be pleased to see them.
make eye contact with them, express interest in their lives,
not in the trauma actually at all, but just in this moment.
Be with them in this moment in a way that is safe for them.
Being concerned about them when they're not there, like
checking in with them, maybe calling them from time to time during the week.
If there's something that they're celebrating, celebrate with them.
showing up in ways
that help them know that they are safe here and now.
Because, remember, trauma
leaves them with a sense of not being safe here and now.
So we do what we can in relationship to provide a sense of safety
and let them take the lead in talking about their difficulties.
It's not good to pressure someone when the body is already
kind of in a threat response, pressure just exacerbates that threat response.
So instead, stay close.
Be ready to listen to their story in their words,
but be aware that talking about their experiences at a time
when they don't feel safe is actually retraumatizing for them.
And that's the other thing to be very aware of here.
traumatized people will struggle to trust everyone,
and they will struggle to
accept love and care from people.
But as we try and work out how to care for them, they'll be really grateful
that we took the time to understand and to stay close by.
So the other thing is to know
that retraumatization is very possible,
and this is a special time and relationship
to practice the message of Jesus.
So we speak good news
and we heal the heartbroken
and we proclaim freedom
and comfort.
And from Galatians six,
we come alongside in a spirit of meekness.
And I have to share this because the word in Galatians six to restore
in a spirit of meekness the word restore is the same Greek word
that's used when Jesus talks about his disciples mending, mending nets.
So when I look at that now, I always think about
I see it as mend, mend
each other in a spirit of meekness
and net mending is not just one kind of knot.
It was actually a very intricate business.
I read that it was like hundreds of knots, hundreds
of different kinds of knots that go into truly mending.
Like anybody could pull some things together and tie a knot.
But to really restore and mend,
there is a we have to be willing to go slow.
We have to be willing to stay close,
and we have to be willing to do more than one thing.
We're going to have to use a variety of things in a relationship like this.
So I don't know very
much about trauma informed care, but from what I understand,
in trauma informed care, the question is more likely to be
what has happened to you rather than what's wrong with you?
in Christianity,
we believe something about sin or depravity.
Some people call it bentness, some people call it original sin.
But whatever the case, we believe that there is something wrong inside us
that asking that only asking what's happened to
you won't actually address.
So I'm curious if you could comment on, the way in which
a Christian practitioner of trauma informed care
can think about the
where we look for what's wrong, you know, outside
something that's happened to us versus what's happened
or what's going on inside of us.
Yes. Yeah.
Well, with someone who's experienced trauma,
something actually did happen to them that was outside of themselves.
That's actually. That's part of the definition of trauma.
So is that something actually did happen to them
that wasn't about something being wrong within them.
But I still understand your question.
So as a Christian practitioner, I do when I'm sitting with anybody
and I would even view myself this way, there is
this innate brokenness that is a part of us and something is wrong, right?
We feel it every day.
None of us gets to the end of the day
and is like, wow, I really did everything perfectly.
Like, we, we have these regrets and these things
that we can feel are wrong inside of us.
But I think about it always in healing work.
If I would only fixate on what is wrong in this individual.
I would be missing so much
because at the same time that things are wrong.
through Christ, so much is also made.
There's also so much right about us.
And in my work, at least with Christian women,
I always want to keep that in line too like, yes, there's a lot of brokenness
and the the mind and the body are going through so much here.
But God, right.
And in his great mercy.
So keeping, it's always the two hands open. Yes.
I want to be able to see where we are doing wrong and where we are causing harm,
and where we are not living out of Christ,
but always also
alongside of it.
What is possible with him?
What is still right, what is still actually very functionally good.
And right here.
There is a trauma informed movement.
From what I understand, that's still somewhat new.
I think
from what I understand,
trauma informed care was first articulated in 2001.
So about 23 years past that.
So I'm curious, do you see it as a necessary corrective?
or what does this movement, being a mainstream movement,
have to offer to Christians
and are there any cautions that you would offer with it?
Sure, I did some reflecting on this.
the principles in the mainstream movement
are I think they're important for Christians in that
they and it's almost a mirror in some ways for who we,
I think for who Christ wants us to be ideally.
Maybe the difference is that in the mainstream movement,
they would see it as sort of something they can learn and do all by themselves.
And as Christians, we think about how it is
Christ and His Spirit in us that enables us to do this kind of care.
But it's still good, I think, for us to hear
what the trauma informed movement is saying and kind of say,
well, how are we doing with that then, is this
it aligns with our teachings, and are we actually doing it in our churches?
So here's what here's what they're calling for,
helping people to feel physically and psychologically safe.
So is that happening in our churches?
When people come to us, are we helping them to know that here
they are going to receive respect and care,
and we're going to view them the way Christ would view them?
To me, that's the essence of helping people feel psychologically safe.
another part of what they are looking at in the model is
are we making decisions with the goal of transparency and building trust?
So less of a, much less of a top down approach
where a patient comes in or an employee comes in, and then somebody up above them
makes all these decisions about what they're needing.
It's more of, we're going to have conversations
that build an element of trust.
are we doing that in our churches?
another thing they stress is integrating those with trauma experience
into the community in ways that offer what they've learned to support other people.
And so are we willing to, like I think sometimes what happens in our communities.
And I would hear this in people's stories so easily in our churches.
There's the group that's trusted and the group that's not
and I don't know, I think
sometimes the people who are not trusted are the ones who have some,
maybe some traumatic things that make it difficult for them to communicate well.
But could we actually be giving more and more opportunities for them to give
in our communities?
Power differences
are leveled to support shared decision making wherever possible.
I think we try to do that in our communities.
we're not always doing it well,
all people are validated in ways that increase their hope for healing.
So that's again, that's saying we're aware that we could respond
to someone with trauma in ways that actually drive them
further into the shame, rather than facilitating their healing.
And, another thing that this movement talks about is
that caregivers are aware of their biases and they lay them down.
And I think that's a great definition for humility,
even for Christians in the church.
We're aware of where we tend
to be really strong at the at the cost of something else.
And we're willing
to set that to the
side while we're while we're listening to what this other person
is really experiencing and really asking for.
you asked about a caution.
I do think one caution is that
we have to be careful that we don't
emphasize trauma so much that we end up getting overwhelmed by the
by it, like just the fact that it exists.
So when people first start
studying trauma, it can be pretty overwhelming, actually.
And so we might lose hope in relation to it.
Or we might think that, oh, now I understand how the brain works.
So now I can heal it all.
And it's not that either.
So be careful of how.
Of the pendulum swing, I guess, in our responses.
if we're to do well in acknowledging it, we must also remember that it's Christ
presence that gives strength to heal, and he opens up the way,
and then we bear with humility the scars
that remain, because that is something true about trauma, too.
Though there it is common for people who have experienced significant traumas,
they will experience great healing,
but there will still often be scars.
There will still be places where they're aware
that the memories
are coming into play in the present.
And so can we be loving even when that's at play.
So we must learn how to love deep
and long in relationships that are not always easy.
We need to be committed to minister
out of the love of Jesus Christ
and out of his great love.
We support trauma survivors in doing the next thing that they're able to.
We don't just hand them a list and say, okay, you got to be able to do all this,
this, this, this, this.
Because we're not in charge of their healing process anyway.
We really
do believe that Jesus is going to be the one who guides them.
so we come alongside and support the next thing that they are feeling ready to do.
And we need to be hope carriers for these individuals
because they endure so many tough things every day.
People who are experiencing PTSD,
they exercise courage every single day
in order to live their life well.
So the trauma informed health care movement recognizes that respect
and humility in relationships is as healing
for trauma as medications.
That's the other thing about this movement is that they're not oversimplifying it
anymore, like where it used to be like, oh, you're having panic attacks.
Take this pill.
The trauma informed movement is actually saying, actually,
there's a relational aspect
that is so needed for people who have experienced trauma.
And so I wonder if the corollary for that in our church setting,
maybe the lesson for us is that respect
and humility in our relationships
is more healing for trauma than prescribing a Bible verse
or thinking that because I prayed for you, you should be better now.
because we do our
own kinds of religious prescribing, sometimes.
and I think it would, I think it would be good for us to know
that walking alongside relationally with respect
and humility will go a long way
for the healing process and trauma.
That sounds to me like wisdom.
Thank you for what you've shared here in this episode.
Thank you for talking with us about trauma and how our churches
can be more trauma informed.
If we're willing to learn.
There's much to be learned.
Definitely!
Thank you for watching this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives.
This is the second episode that we have recorded with Janelle Glick.
You can find the link to her
first episode with us about peace and relationships below.
For the complete library of blog posts and episodes that we have published,
visit anabaptistperspectives.org
Do you think the iPad is
distracting to have it vertically rather than laying down.
On this camera?
So I think, oh, okay. Good.
So Carl, this is the intro for the first episode,
which is about peaceful relationships.
What does peace within oneself
and with others have to do with the peace
and well-being of the community?
What does peace within oneself
and with others have to do with the peace and well-being
of the larger community?
Okay.
You're good. Okay.
And this is the intro for the second episode with Janelle Glick.
it's the one about
trauma and trauma informed churches.
For those looking on,
those who have experienced trauma may be suffering unnecessarily.
How can Christians support those who have experienced
trauma rather than driving their suffering deeper?
How can churches offer a loving care?
How does that wording turn on the first sentence?
For those looking.
For those looking
on, those who have experienced trauma may appear to be suffering unnecessarily.
Yeah. Is there a way we can frame that more clearly?
No. That was that was good.
I mean, I didn't hear you say the word appear, so I was,
was oh,
okay.
I mean, that would be bad news to leave that out. Yeah.
so, Carl, make sure that the word appears in the first sentence,
and I'll try again and try to get the words right.
And maybe start with to those looking on, rather than for those looking,
okay, I think I might be a little more clear and less.
That's not chromatically.
No, that's grammatically good and I think probably clear.
So I will try again.
To those looking on,
those who have experienced trauma may appear to be suffering unnecessarily.
How can Christians support those who have experienced trauma
rather than driving the suffering deeper?
How can churches respond?
That sound good?
Okay,
you go one more, run your good.
To those looking on,
those who have experienced trauma may appear
to be suffering unnecessarily.
How can
how can Christian support those who have experienced trauma
rather than driving the suffering deeper?
How can churches respond?
so, Carl, this is the outro for our
episode one about peace and relationships.
Thank you for watching this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives.
For the complete library of the blog posts and episodes that we have published,
visit Anabaptist perspectives.org.
Thank you for watching this episode with Janelle.
Click for the complete collection of episodes and blog posts
that we have published.
Visit and a Baptist perspectives.org.
And Carl, this is the outro for the second episode
with Janelle Glick about trauma.
Thank you for watching this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives.
This is the second episode that we have recorded with Janelle Glick.
You can find the link to her
first episode with us about peace and relationships below.
For the complete library of blog posts and episodes that we have published,
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Maybe the difference is that in the mainstream movement,
they would see it as sort of something they can learn and do all by themselves.
And as Christians, we think about how it is
Christ and His Spirit in us that enables us to do this kind of care.
But it's still good, I think, for us to hear what the trauma informed
movement is saying and kind of say, well, how are we doing with that then,
Tell me that you want.