Speaker: 00:00:00

That's the other thing about this movement

is that they're not oversimplifying it

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anymore, like where it used to be like,

oh, you're having panic attacks.

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Take this pill.

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Take this pill.

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The trauma informed movement

is actually saying, actually,

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there's a relational aspect

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that is so needed

for people who have experienced trauma.

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And so I wonder if the corollary

for that in our church setting,

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maybe the lesson for us is that respect

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and humility in our relationships

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is more healing for trauma

than prescribing a Bible verse

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is more healing for trauma

than prescribing a Bible verse

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or thinking that because I prayed for you,

you should be better now.

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Janelle,

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thank you for joining us for this episode.

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We're here to talk about trauma

informed churches.

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So to begin.

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How did you become interested

in helping churches

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become trauma informed?

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Well, little by little,

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again, birthed in my own experience,

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of sitting with people who were clearly

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their bodies

were under distress in the moment.

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So sitting with someone who,

who was trying to talk but couldn't

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Early on in my coaching experience,

I had a client

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who who had a complete freeze response,

like in their body.

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They weren't able to speak.

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They weren't able to move.

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And thankfully,

I had had enough training that I knew

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what to do

to help with that response in the body.

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so recognizing that it's real,

that the brain and the nervous system

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actually can be so activated

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by a memory or something from the past

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that in the present we're not functioning

well or barely functioning at all.

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So first of all, actually encountering

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what trauma can do to a person's body

and to their health,

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and then also bridging that

into the life of the church,

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realizing how quickly, how easy it can be

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to make judgments of that

when we don't understand what it is

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like when we see someone who's not able,

to speak in the way that they would

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want to, or a very opposite

response is a fight response, right?

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So like just the lashing out

that can happen when we're afraid.

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so when I headed into studies to learn

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better how to support and care for people

with the more difficult

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experiences, I actually didn't have a word

for what I was looking for.

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I just I knew there was more to learn.

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And I think that the word

that what I found in this idea

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of being trauma informed

kind of encapsulates

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the thing that I was seeing a need

for in our communities.

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I didn't realize yet

that people in mainstream communities,

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like schools and businesses and hospitals

were also asking a similar question.

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Like they were saying,

we're trying to help, but

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there's something we're not understanding

that sometimes gets in the way.

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And awareness was growing at large

about the impacts of traumatic life

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events on human beings long term

emotional health or mental health

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and the ways that it was interfering

with healthy functioning at work

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or in families or in any kind of community

trying to come together.

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So this phrase, trauma informed care

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is now it is a mainstream idea,

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but I think it has a lot of, again,

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it has a lot to call us

to even in our church settings.

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So when we talk about being trauma

informed, we're not saying

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we should all go out and get like

we shouldn't be able to treat the trauma.

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It's different than that. We're not.

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When we're talking about being trauma

informed, it's more understanding

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that it exists and what it can look like

and how it can interfere.

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And then

and then what are the resources for help?

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Because we don't want to we don't want

to add more into that picture.

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so I've become interested

in how trauma informed

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churches could better extend grace

and light of Jesus.

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for the people who are joining us

from any place in their lives,

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if we actually understood more

about the threat responses in the body,

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which is essentially

what trauma or PTSD is,

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so it's threat responses in our bodies.

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if we could

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understand

a little more of the physicality of that,

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might we be able to make more space inside

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our churches

for more compassion and less fear?

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And would we be able to actually be able

to have more presence

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to people who are in trauma experiences

and less pressure?

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And could we have more learning

and less judgment?

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So where we're actually curious

to understand

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rather than just being like something's

terribly wrong.

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And we, you know, rather than the shaming

and the judgment.

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Before we go further

into this conversation,

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I think it would be helpful

to define terms.

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So you began to define trauma

a small bit already.

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But I understand that trauma is a term

that can be used technically.

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So when used technically,

what does trauma mean? Yes.

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What is trauma? Well,

I went to find the definition.

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To serve this purpose.

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So this is the definition

that's understood and accepted.

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it may not be as defined

as people wish, but

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it can be defined as any experience

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which causes a person to feel terror

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or powerlessness or overwhelmed,

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and that challenges their capacity

to cope.

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it leaves an imprint.

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So this is more like the

the body research now language.

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It leaves an imprint on the person's

nervous system,

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their emotions, their body,

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their learning and their relationships.

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So one thing I think that's really helpful

to note here is that

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I think sometimes we think, well, only

certain experiences qualify as traumatic.

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We just have this list and then that's it.

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But actually it's the way

the person responds

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that tells us more about

if it was trauma or not.

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So like if it was overwhelming for them,

if they felt powerless.

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if there was terror involved for them

and it kept them

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from being able to function in the way

that they would have wanted to function.

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That's when we're talking

about trauma being at play.

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So if

we're looking at it from the perspective

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of how the person experiences it,

would it be possible

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that you could have two people

in a similar situation?

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And for one, they would experience it

as trauma for the other person.

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They would not experience it

as trauma. Yes.

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That's right.

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and if people want more understanding

of why that is, it's multiple factors.

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Again, it can be related to everything

that's come in their life before.

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Right?

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So if it's a first encounter

with being feeling powerless,

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then it may not have near as big

an impact.

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But if that person has had

lots of experiences where they have felt

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powerless leading up to this one,

then it brings in a whole it.

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It brings in a whole,

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It's like a bigger sense of that

because it,

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it brings an accumulated effect,

I think, into that moment.

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So my husband and I were talking

about this recently and he said, is it

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possible, for someone

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to be deeply wounded,

even if it wasn't the intent of the person

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in who was, who they would say

did the wounding?

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And I say, absolutely,

because we are always interacting,

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not just in the moment,

but with moments that have come before,

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like it's present in the way

we're responding to each other.

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Yeah,

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and that's true with trauma, too.

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Adverse

life experiences in childhood are one.

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That's one of the things once people start

reading about trauma experienced,

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the way a person responds to trauma later

in life has a lot to do with

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some of the adverse

life experiences that came before.

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How widespread is trauma

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and how is it

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expressed

by those who have experienced it?

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Very good questions.

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so again I, I went to see kind of

what research is showing for that

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because I don't have a way

of answering that for the world at large.

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The National Council for Mental

Well-Being states that 70% of adults in

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the US have experienced at least one

traumatic event in their lifetime.

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Okay, so that sounds big, right?

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70% of us are going to be we're going to

feel powerless at least once in our life.

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We're going to feel overwhelmed

and powerless at least once.

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This doesn't

mean that they're going to continue

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to carry

that sense of trauma with them, though.

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there was another government study

done on PTSD in the US that states that

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8% of women and 4% of men will experience,

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like post-traumatic stress disorder

at some point in their lives.

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And that's more what we're looking at

when we're talking about this,

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these trauma interactions

that show up in our lives and communities.

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Because.

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Because it means that we're still

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we're still responding in our bodies

and in our thinking and in our

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relationships, as if that trauma

was still happening, even if it isn't.

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So when we're talking about PTSD, it's

as if we're living it again

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now, even if it's not happening now.

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So many of us can experience

a traumatic event, and then we keep living

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and we know it's in the past

and we're not living out of it now.

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But the PTSD

when we're talking about PTSD,

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we're talking about it's still

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impeding us now,

even if it's not happening now.

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some examples of

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what people experience.

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That's what you had asked about, what

people are experiencing in the moment,

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even when the difficult thing

is no longer happening,

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they might think about it

and still have panic attacks, right?

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Like their heart rate will get,

their heart rate will go fast

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and their breathing will get heavy

or and short of breath.

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so it might be panic attacks.

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It might be the shutdown that I told you

about earlier where someone

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we're talking about an event

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that happened in their past and,

and they start talking slower and,

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and then if it's a complete freeze,

they actually stop talking.

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They can't they can't talk about it.

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That's a trauma response.

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recurring flashbacks

that bring the event back

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and all of those symptoms in the present,

debilitating shame.

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And also,

I think a lot of addictions, are fueled

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by this sense of unresolved trauma

from somewhere before the addiction.

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But we're often

trying to soothe and comfort

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something that's overwhelming for us.

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And this helps us cope.

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So addictions are another, flag

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for unresolved trauma.

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You have quoted somebody else as stating

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that trauma is perhaps the most avoided,

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ignored, belittled, denied,

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misunderstood,

and untreated cause of human suffering.

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Do you think that this assessment is true?

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And if so,

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why is it that way?

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well,

I think there's truth in the statement.

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though there are many other ways

to suffer too, right?

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So of course, my brain is like,

well, is it at the most?

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And, you know, there'd be something

about that to talk about.

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But so there are many ways to suffer

that are not all that.

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But so there are many ways to suffer

that are not all that.

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It's not all trauma related

when someone is suffering.

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But I think that other forms of suffering,

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maybe we understand better

or we know how to show up better.

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Like you think about when someone dies,

the community knows about it.

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The community shows up for it.

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The community contributes

food and contributes care.

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And there's these understood

ways of marking that.

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But usually the things that are

in the realm of trauma experiences.

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Those are not things that we easily share

with other people, partly

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because it can be triggering

for us to talk about it.

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Right?

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If someone is experiencing abuse,

they don't want to like,

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talk about that everywhere

or if they have experienced it.

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There isn't.

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There isn't a way for community

to gather around and mark it.

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And that's why

I think it is often the most.

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That's why I would say,

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untreated and ignored and avoided.

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Right.

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We don't know how to mark things that

caused this level of trauma for people.

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So trauma is less understood

and it is less supported.

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And we are so prone

to focus on behavior modifications

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when we're seeing the different responses

of trauma,

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instead of sourcing

the trauma that might lie underneath it.

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That's really common

with addiction treatment.

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we see the addiction and of course

we want the addictive behavior to stop,

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but sometimes we're failing

to consider that.

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It's like there's a pain, there's a pain

that's bringing that behavior around.

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And I hope we're getting better

at learning

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about what

that pain is and caring about that, too.

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But there are other reasons.

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I think, too, that we might tend to ignore

or avoid

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or belittle and misunderstand trauma.

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one of it is that there.

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It's complicated.

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There's a lot to understand about trauma.

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and so and how it affects the body.

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And I think some of us, we just prefer

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to think about these behaviors

more in a spiritual lens.

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It's simpler for us bad behavior.

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Well, okay.

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So we

decide what to do about your behavior.

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But to start to understand,

trauma in the body

249

00:14:37,626 --> 00:14:40,629

does take time and it will take education.

250

00:14:41,088 --> 00:14:44,216

We prefer staying in a spiritual lens

for our humanity,

251

00:14:44,216 --> 00:14:47,219

then also including a physical one.

252

00:14:47,386 --> 00:14:51,891

We might be uncomfortable

thinking about how our brain

253

00:14:51,891 --> 00:14:55,352

and body can inform our understanding

of emotional health.

254

00:14:55,936 --> 00:14:58,898

It just feels too complicated

or too dangerous.

255

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And so we avoid that.

256

00:15:02,151 --> 00:15:06,405

But I think another thing is that

it's easy to lose hope when we're walking

257

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with someone who is experiencing trauma,

because we pray for them

258

00:15:10,993 --> 00:15:15,831

and they still feel the trauma,

and we speak truth to them

259

00:15:15,831 --> 00:15:18,834

and their body

is still experiencing the trauma.

260

00:15:18,834 --> 00:15:22,671

So the things that we're used

to bringing comfort to ourselves

261

00:15:23,255 --> 00:15:25,883

don't always stop

262

00:15:25,883 --> 00:15:28,469

the responses

that someone in trauma is having.

263

00:15:28,469 --> 00:15:32,056

And so we if we don't understand

what's happening,

264

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we think that's all we have to offer

and we can lose hope.

265

00:15:35,893 --> 00:15:38,896

And that's the one thing

they really need us not to do.

266

00:15:39,229 --> 00:15:43,233

People who are experiencing trauma

in their bodies and in their minds,

267

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they really need people

who hold hope for them

268

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and who stay with them in that process.

269

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So when we're out of our

270

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known resources for helping,

we easily lose hope for them.

271

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And even worse,

we can start to blame them.

272

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We can start to say things like,

well, you're just not.

273

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You're not trying hard enough.

274

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Or you need to do more of this

or more of that.

275

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And then that is retraumatizing

276

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for that person because it's added shame.

277

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So yes, I think we do avoid

278

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and we do ignore and we do belittle

and we do misunderstand.

279

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And sometimes we add suffering.

280

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Shouldn't be this way.

281

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No, but learning about it helps.

282

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That's what this is.

283

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That's why I come back to I think if

we understood it more, we would live.

284

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We would live better.

285

00:16:35,619 --> 00:16:38,956

As institutions, churches, schools

286

00:16:38,956 --> 00:16:43,711

or other organizations,

how can they respond well

287

00:16:44,878 --> 00:16:46,296

and lovingly,

288

00:16:46,296 --> 00:16:49,675

to individuals who have experienced

trauma?

289

00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,055

Well, I think that one of the things is

we need to know

290

00:16:55,055 --> 00:16:58,475

when we don't have everything

that that individual is needing.

291

00:16:58,642 --> 00:17:01,645

So being willing to source out,

292

00:17:02,563 --> 00:17:05,566

I think sometimes we

293

00:17:05,733 --> 00:17:08,736

hear about a need

and we realize it's really big.

294

00:17:08,736 --> 00:17:11,697

And our assumption is that, well,

295

00:17:11,739 --> 00:17:14,742

the Lord will give us everything we need.

296

00:17:14,950 --> 00:17:17,036

And I think that he does

give us what we need.

297

00:17:17,036 --> 00:17:20,205

But sometimes that giving to us is

298

00:17:20,205 --> 00:17:23,208

an awareness of someone else

who can help meet the need.

299

00:17:23,667 --> 00:17:28,130

So when it comes to significant trauma,

I do recommend that churches

300

00:17:28,130 --> 00:17:31,425

find a Christian counseling center

to partner with.

301

00:17:32,009 --> 00:17:35,637

And that was something

that our congregation did in Ontario.

302

00:17:36,180 --> 00:17:37,681

partnership simply meant that

303

00:17:38,766 --> 00:17:39,308

pastors

304

00:17:39,308 --> 00:17:42,603

met with some people from a counseling

agency,

305

00:17:42,603 --> 00:17:45,939

asked questions about how they would

handle different situations.

306

00:17:45,939 --> 00:17:49,276

It was like a mutual it was a conversation

to get to know each other.

307

00:17:49,985 --> 00:17:53,072

And after feeling comfortable

with the approaches

308

00:17:53,072 --> 00:17:57,034

that they were talking about,

and their understanding of Scripture

309

00:17:57,034 --> 00:18:01,330

and where counseling was,

in light of that, it was a place that,

310

00:18:01,997 --> 00:18:04,416

our pastors felt comfortable

311

00:18:04,416 --> 00:18:07,336

recommending

to members in our congregation

312

00:18:07,336 --> 00:18:13,175

and then provided the funding for it,

so paid for members who needed counseling.

313

00:18:13,175 --> 00:18:14,301

Now that payment.

314

00:18:14,301 --> 00:18:16,261

I'm not saying that that has to be done,

315

00:18:16,261 --> 00:18:20,224

but that is a beautiful way to support

someone who's needing some care

316

00:18:20,599 --> 00:18:24,269

for their significant dysregulation

that comes with trauma

317

00:18:24,770 --> 00:18:28,607

is to source out a place

where they can receive good care,

318

00:18:28,941 --> 00:18:33,362

and then to help fund that for them,

because it's usually doesn't come cheap.

319

00:18:34,822 --> 00:18:37,157

so I think that,

320

00:18:37,157 --> 00:18:40,285

being willing to pull in

321

00:18:41,453 --> 00:18:44,665

the resources

and I think it's usually very, it's

322

00:18:44,665 --> 00:18:47,668

very possible to find believers

323

00:18:48,085 --> 00:18:50,129

who understand trauma

324

00:18:50,129 --> 00:18:53,132

and who are actually trained

in the treatment of it.

325

00:18:53,340 --> 00:18:55,801

That's pretty important to do.

326

00:18:55,801 --> 00:18:57,970

I, I don't do trauma treatment.

327

00:18:57,970 --> 00:19:00,973

That's when someone needs treatment

for actual trauma.

328

00:19:01,431 --> 00:19:05,018

Then we talk together about who

that who could provide that for them.

329

00:19:05,477 --> 00:19:09,106

And I would encourage,

pastors and churches to do the same,

330

00:19:09,356 --> 00:19:12,234

to seek resources for them.

331

00:19:12,234 --> 00:19:16,905

another thing I would recommend

is that congregations consider

332

00:19:16,905 --> 00:19:20,742

having a speaker

come and do a much more in-depth talk

333

00:19:20,742 --> 00:19:25,080

than what I, I'm not actually talking much

about the impacts

334

00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,876

of trauma on a person

in this in our discussion today,

335

00:19:29,209 --> 00:19:33,255

but I would recommend that

if a congregation is ready and interested,

336

00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:38,343

that having someone inviting someone

to come and do an educational

337

00:19:39,344 --> 00:19:41,722

workshop on trauma and how it

338

00:19:41,722 --> 00:19:45,225

impacts the brain

and the body and relationships,

339

00:19:46,810 --> 00:19:49,813

would be really helpful

for congregation members to hear.

340

00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,567

And then if there is anyone

341

00:19:53,567 --> 00:19:57,279

in the congregation who would like to,

I think it would be lovely to

342

00:19:57,279 --> 00:20:02,159

if there was someone in our congregations

that we could again, support

343

00:20:02,201 --> 00:20:07,289

to learn more about it and be able

to at least provide supportive listening,

344

00:20:07,289 --> 00:20:11,126

even if they're not doing

the trauma treatment with the individual.

345

00:20:12,085 --> 00:20:12,711

Yeah.

346

00:20:12,711 --> 00:20:15,714

So honestly, recognizing our limitations,

347

00:20:16,715 --> 00:20:19,092

being willing to do that,

348

00:20:19,092 --> 00:20:22,095

I think that's an act of love in this.

349

00:20:22,638 --> 00:20:25,015

And how would you answer the question

for individuals,

350

00:20:25,015 --> 00:20:28,518

like I asked what institutions, churches

or otherwise can do?

351

00:20:29,269 --> 00:20:33,649

But what would you say to individuals

352

00:20:34,191 --> 00:20:37,736

who wish to care for or love,

353

00:20:37,778 --> 00:20:41,573

respond lovingly to individuals

who have experienced trauma?

354

00:20:41,782 --> 00:20:44,159

Yes, I have a few things about that.

355

00:20:44,159 --> 00:20:46,745

first of all, encourage

356

00:20:46,745 --> 00:20:50,707

compassion over like management or fixing.

357

00:20:51,250 --> 00:20:55,379

So first of all, it's about

can you be present with them

358

00:20:55,796 --> 00:20:58,799

with compassion

and love for exactly where they're at?

359

00:20:59,174 --> 00:21:02,678

And this comes down to, notice them.

360

00:21:03,053 --> 00:21:07,057

So yes, they're you're going to notice

that they're going to look more fearful

361

00:21:07,057 --> 00:21:10,060

and more anxious,

probably in a community setting.

362

00:21:10,602 --> 00:21:13,605

But notice them and then move toward them

363

00:21:13,605 --> 00:21:16,650

relationally at a pace

that is right for them.

364

00:21:16,817 --> 00:21:19,444

Be very aware of what they can handle.

365

00:21:19,444 --> 00:21:21,613

Be pleased to see them.

366

00:21:21,613 --> 00:21:25,450

make eye contact with them, express

interest in their lives,

367

00:21:25,575 --> 00:21:29,288

not in the trauma actually at all,

but just in this moment.

368

00:21:29,288 --> 00:21:32,833

Be with them in this moment

in a way that is safe for them.

369

00:21:33,667 --> 00:21:37,754

Being concerned about them

when they're not there, like

370

00:21:37,754 --> 00:21:41,883

checking in with them, maybe calling them

from time to time during the week.

371

00:21:41,883 --> 00:21:45,637

If there's something that they're

celebrating, celebrate with them.

372

00:21:46,638 --> 00:21:48,265

showing up in ways

373

00:21:48,265 --> 00:21:51,268

that help them know

that they are safe here and now.

374

00:21:51,268 --> 00:21:53,895

Because, remember, trauma

375

00:21:53,895 --> 00:21:57,316

leaves them with a sense

of not being safe here and now.

376

00:21:57,316 --> 00:22:01,194

So we do what we can in relationship

to provide a sense of safety

377

00:22:02,654 --> 00:22:06,908

and let them take the lead

in talking about their difficulties.

378

00:22:06,908 --> 00:22:10,912

It's not good to pressure

someone when the body is already

379

00:22:10,996 --> 00:22:15,959

kind of in a threat response, pressure

just exacerbates that threat response.

380

00:22:16,543 --> 00:22:19,463

So instead, stay close.

381

00:22:19,463 --> 00:22:22,716

Be ready to listen to their story

in their words,

382

00:22:23,425 --> 00:22:28,722

but be aware that talking

about their experiences at a time

383

00:22:28,722 --> 00:22:33,393

when they don't feel

safe is actually retraumatizing for them.

384

00:22:34,019 --> 00:22:37,022

And that's the other thing

to be very aware of here.

385

00:22:37,397 --> 00:22:40,942

traumatized

people will struggle to trust everyone,

386

00:22:41,902 --> 00:22:43,111

and they will struggle to

387

00:22:43,111 --> 00:22:46,323

accept love and care from people.

388

00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,453

But as we try and work out how to care

for them, they'll be really grateful

389

00:22:51,912 --> 00:22:55,332

that we took the time to understand

and to stay close by.

390

00:22:56,750 --> 00:22:58,543

So the other thing is to know

391

00:22:58,543 --> 00:23:01,546

that retraumatization is very possible,

392

00:23:02,422 --> 00:23:05,842

and this is a special time

and relationship

393

00:23:05,842 --> 00:23:07,886

to practice the message of Jesus.

394

00:23:07,886 --> 00:23:10,639

So we speak good news

395

00:23:10,639 --> 00:23:12,849

and we heal the heartbroken

396

00:23:12,849 --> 00:23:15,644

and we proclaim freedom

397

00:23:15,644 --> 00:23:17,896

and comfort.

398

00:23:17,896 --> 00:23:19,398

And from Galatians six,

399

00:23:19,398 --> 00:23:22,984

we come alongside in a spirit of meekness.

400

00:23:23,485 --> 00:23:28,448

And I have to share this because the word

in Galatians six to restore

401

00:23:28,448 --> 00:23:32,661

in a spirit of meekness

the word restore is the same Greek word

402

00:23:32,661 --> 00:23:37,457

that's used when Jesus talks

about his disciples mending, mending nets.

403

00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:40,919

So when I look at that now,

I always think about

404

00:23:41,044 --> 00:23:43,630

I see it as mend, mend

405

00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:46,633

each other in a spirit of meekness

406

00:23:47,092 --> 00:23:51,680

and net mending

is not just one kind of knot.

407

00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,015

It was actually a very intricate business.

408

00:23:54,015 --> 00:23:57,102

I read that it was like hundreds of knots,

hundreds

409

00:23:57,102 --> 00:24:00,897

of different kinds of knots

that go into truly mending.

410

00:24:01,481 --> 00:24:04,901

Like anybody could pull some things

together and tie a knot.

411

00:24:05,318 --> 00:24:07,904

But to really restore and mend,

412

00:24:07,904 --> 00:24:11,241

there is a

we have to be willing to go slow.

413

00:24:11,241 --> 00:24:13,660

We have to be willing to stay close,

414

00:24:13,660 --> 00:24:16,580

and we have to be willing to do

more than one thing.

415

00:24:16,580 --> 00:24:20,876

We're going to have to use a variety

of things in a relationship like this.

416

00:24:23,044 --> 00:24:24,004

So I don't know very

417

00:24:24,004 --> 00:24:27,716

much about trauma informed care,

but from what I understand,

418

00:24:29,301 --> 00:24:32,429

in trauma informed care,

the question is more likely to be

419

00:24:32,846 --> 00:24:36,433

what has happened to you

rather than what's wrong with you?

420

00:24:38,059 --> 00:24:40,312

in Christianity,

421

00:24:40,312 --> 00:24:44,316

we believe something about sin

or depravity.

422

00:24:44,316 --> 00:24:47,110

Some people call it bentness,

some people call it original sin.

423

00:24:47,110 --> 00:24:52,365

But whatever the case, we believe

that there is something wrong inside us

424

00:24:52,866 --> 00:24:56,119

that asking that only asking

what's happened to

425

00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,623

you won't actually address.

426

00:24:59,873 --> 00:25:03,793

So I'm curious

if you could comment on, the way in which

427

00:25:03,793 --> 00:25:07,297

a Christian practitioner of trauma

informed care

428

00:25:07,756 --> 00:25:10,759

can think about the

429

00:25:11,009 --> 00:25:13,720

where we look for what's wrong,

you know, outside

430

00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,723

something that's happened to us versus

what's happened

431

00:25:17,182 --> 00:25:18,975

or what's going on inside of us.

432

00:25:18,975 --> 00:25:20,227

Yes. Yeah.

433

00:25:22,103 --> 00:25:25,565

Well,

with someone who's experienced trauma,

434

00:25:26,399 --> 00:25:30,111

something actually did happen to them

that was outside of themselves.

435

00:25:30,111 --> 00:25:32,739

That's actually.

That's part of the definition of trauma.

436

00:25:32,739 --> 00:25:36,368

So is that something

actually did happen to them

437

00:25:37,244 --> 00:25:39,788

that wasn't about something

being wrong within them.

438

00:25:39,788 --> 00:25:42,332

But I still understand your question.

439

00:25:42,332 --> 00:25:47,170

So as a Christian practitioner,

I do when I'm sitting with anybody

440

00:25:47,170 --> 00:25:50,590

and I would even view myself this way,

there is

441

00:25:51,675 --> 00:25:56,346

this innate brokenness that is a

part of us and something is wrong, right?

442

00:25:56,596 --> 00:25:58,390

We feel it every day.

443

00:25:58,390 --> 00:25:59,891

None of us gets to the end of the day

444

00:25:59,891 --> 00:26:02,894

and is like,

wow, I really did everything perfectly.

445

00:26:03,144 --> 00:26:05,647

Like, we,

we have these regrets and these things

446

00:26:05,647 --> 00:26:08,650

that we can feel are wrong inside of us.

447

00:26:09,484 --> 00:26:13,196

But I think about it

always in healing work.

448

00:26:13,780 --> 00:26:18,410

If I would only fixate on

what is wrong in this individual.

449

00:26:20,704 --> 00:26:22,372

I would be missing so much

450

00:26:22,372 --> 00:26:25,458

because at the same time

that things are wrong.

451

00:26:26,626 --> 00:26:29,254

through Christ, so much is also made.

452

00:26:29,254 --> 00:26:32,257

There's also so much right about us.

453

00:26:32,382 --> 00:26:35,927

And in my work,

at least with Christian women,

454

00:26:35,927 --> 00:26:40,015

I always want to keep that in line

too like, yes, there's a lot of brokenness

455

00:26:40,015 --> 00:26:44,519

and the the mind and the body

are going through so much here.

456

00:26:46,021 --> 00:26:47,314

But God, right.

457

00:26:47,314 --> 00:26:49,733

And in his great mercy.

458

00:26:49,733 --> 00:26:54,904

So keeping,

it's always the two hands open. Yes.

459

00:26:54,904 --> 00:27:00,160

I want to be able to see where we are

doing wrong and where we are causing harm,

460

00:27:00,535 --> 00:27:03,538

and where we are not living out of Christ,

461

00:27:03,580 --> 00:27:06,416

but always also

462

00:27:06,416 --> 00:27:07,459

alongside of it.

463

00:27:07,459 --> 00:27:10,462

What is possible with him?

464

00:27:10,503 --> 00:27:14,966

What is still right, what is still

actually very functionally good.

465

00:27:14,966 --> 00:27:15,967

And right here.

466

00:27:17,927 --> 00:27:20,639

There is a trauma informed movement.

467

00:27:20,639 --> 00:27:23,892

From what I understand,

that's still somewhat new.

468

00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:25,977

I think

469

00:27:25,977 --> 00:27:28,480

from what I understand,

470

00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,274

trauma informed

care was first articulated in 2001.

471

00:27:31,274 --> 00:27:34,986

So about 23 years past that.

472

00:27:35,612 --> 00:27:38,782

So I'm curious,

do you see it as a necessary corrective?

473

00:27:39,324 --> 00:27:41,826

or what does this movement,

being a mainstream movement,

474

00:27:41,826 --> 00:27:44,829

have to offer to Christians

475

00:27:45,330 --> 00:27:49,584

and are there any cautions

that you would offer with it?

476

00:27:50,210 --> 00:27:52,504

Sure, I did some reflecting on this.

477

00:27:52,504 --> 00:27:56,424

the principles in the mainstream movement

478

00:27:56,549 --> 00:27:59,552

are I think they're important

for Christians in that

479

00:27:59,552 --> 00:28:03,390

they and it's almost a mirror

in some ways for who we,

480

00:28:03,932 --> 00:28:06,810

I think for who

Christ wants us to be ideally.

481

00:28:06,810 --> 00:28:09,354

Maybe the difference

is that in the mainstream movement,

482

00:28:09,354 --> 00:28:13,525

they would see it as sort of something

they can learn and do all by themselves.

483

00:28:13,525 --> 00:28:16,695

And as Christians,

we think about how it is

484

00:28:16,695 --> 00:28:20,865

Christ and His Spirit in us

that enables us to do this kind of care.

485

00:28:21,241 --> 00:28:24,202

But it's still good,

I think, for us to hear

486

00:28:24,202 --> 00:28:27,247

what the trauma informed

movement is saying and kind of say,

487

00:28:27,622 --> 00:28:30,875

well,

how are we doing with that then, is this

488

00:28:31,209 --> 00:28:36,089

it aligns with our teachings, and

are we actually doing it in our churches?

489

00:28:36,464 --> 00:28:40,677

So here's what here's

what they're calling for,

490

00:28:40,844 --> 00:28:44,556

helping people to feel physically

and psychologically safe.

491

00:28:45,390 --> 00:28:47,392

So is that happening in our churches?

492

00:28:47,392 --> 00:28:52,021

When people come to us,

are we helping them to know that here

493

00:28:52,647 --> 00:28:55,650

they are going to receive

respect and care,

494

00:28:55,692 --> 00:28:58,445

and we're going to view them

the way Christ would view them?

495

00:28:58,445 --> 00:29:02,031

To me, that's the essence of helping

people feel psychologically safe.

496

00:29:03,491 --> 00:29:06,411

another part of

what they are looking at in the model is

497

00:29:06,411 --> 00:29:10,290

are we making decisions with the goal

of transparency and building trust?

498

00:29:10,707 --> 00:29:13,710

So less of a, much

less of a top down approach

499

00:29:13,835 --> 00:29:17,839

where a patient comes in or an employee

comes in, and then somebody up above them

500

00:29:17,839 --> 00:29:21,009

makes all these decisions

about what they're needing.

501

00:29:21,426 --> 00:29:23,720

It's more of,

we're going to have conversations

502

00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,556

that build an element of trust.

503

00:29:26,556 --> 00:29:29,559

are we doing that in our churches?

504

00:29:30,268 --> 00:29:34,564

another thing they stress is integrating

those with trauma experience

505

00:29:34,564 --> 00:29:39,611

into the community in ways that offer what

they've learned to support other people.

506

00:29:40,195 --> 00:29:45,742

And so are we willing to, like I think

sometimes what happens in our communities.

507

00:29:45,742 --> 00:29:49,537

And I would hear this in people's stories

so easily in our churches.

508

00:29:49,996 --> 00:29:52,999

There's the group

that's trusted and the group that's not

509

00:29:53,416 --> 00:29:54,876

and I don't know, I think

510

00:29:54,876 --> 00:29:58,213

sometimes the people who are not trusted

are the ones who have some,

511

00:29:58,713 --> 00:30:03,301

maybe some traumatic things that make it

difficult for them to communicate well.

512

00:30:04,052 --> 00:30:08,181

But could we actually be giving more

and more opportunities for them to give

513

00:30:08,765 --> 00:30:09,724

in our communities?

514

00:30:11,267 --> 00:30:12,185

Power differences

515

00:30:12,185 --> 00:30:15,939

are leveled to support shared decision

making wherever possible.

516

00:30:15,939 --> 00:30:18,900

I think we try to do that

in our communities.

517

00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:21,903

we're not always doing it well,

518

00:30:23,947 --> 00:30:28,243

all people are validated in ways

that increase their hope for healing.

519

00:30:28,243 --> 00:30:32,038

So that's again, that's saying

we're aware that we could respond

520

00:30:32,038 --> 00:30:36,793

to someone with trauma

in ways that actually drive them

521

00:30:37,210 --> 00:30:40,630

further into the shame,

rather than facilitating their healing.

522

00:30:42,549 --> 00:30:46,094

And, another thing

that this movement talks about is

523

00:30:46,094 --> 00:30:50,390

that caregivers are aware of their biases

and they lay them down.

524

00:30:51,182 --> 00:30:53,935

And I think that's a great definition

for humility,

525

00:30:53,935 --> 00:30:55,645

even for Christians in the church.

526

00:30:55,645 --> 00:30:58,815

We're aware of where we tend

527

00:30:58,815 --> 00:31:02,318

to be really strong at the

at the cost of something else.

528

00:31:02,318 --> 00:31:03,278

And we're willing

529

00:31:04,487 --> 00:31:05,446

to set that to the

530

00:31:05,446 --> 00:31:09,659

side while we're while we're listening

to what this other person

531

00:31:09,659 --> 00:31:12,704

is really experiencing

and really asking for.

532

00:31:13,913 --> 00:31:15,748

you asked about a caution.

533

00:31:15,748 --> 00:31:18,751

I do think one caution is that

534

00:31:20,169 --> 00:31:21,671

we have to be careful that we don't

535

00:31:21,671 --> 00:31:26,175

emphasize trauma so much that we end up

getting overwhelmed by the

536

00:31:26,968 --> 00:31:29,345

by it, like just the fact that it exists.

537

00:31:29,345 --> 00:31:30,889

So when people first start

538

00:31:30,889 --> 00:31:34,475

studying trauma,

it can be pretty overwhelming, actually.

539

00:31:34,851 --> 00:31:37,854

And so we might lose hope

in relation to it.

540

00:31:38,396 --> 00:31:42,442

Or we might think that, oh,

now I understand how the brain works.

541

00:31:42,442 --> 00:31:44,652

So now I can heal it all.

542

00:31:44,652 --> 00:31:46,321

And it's not that either.

543

00:31:46,321 --> 00:31:49,324

So be careful of how.

544

00:31:51,034 --> 00:31:54,037

Of the pendulum swing,

I guess, in our responses.

545

00:31:54,287 --> 00:32:00,668

if we're to do well in acknowledging it,

we must also remember that it's Christ

546

00:32:00,668 --> 00:32:06,299

presence that gives strength to heal,

and he opens up the way,

547

00:32:07,300 --> 00:32:09,969

and then we bear with humility the scars

548

00:32:09,969 --> 00:32:12,972

that remain, because that is something

true about trauma, too.

549

00:32:13,222 --> 00:32:18,102

Though there it is common for people

who have experienced significant traumas,

550

00:32:19,020 --> 00:32:21,773

they will experience great healing,

551

00:32:21,773 --> 00:32:23,900

but there will still often be scars.

552

00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:26,903

There will still be places

where they're aware

553

00:32:27,695 --> 00:32:30,031

that the memories

554

00:32:30,031 --> 00:32:32,283

are coming into play in the present.

555

00:32:32,283 --> 00:32:35,954

And so can we be loving

even when that's at play.

556

00:32:37,622 --> 00:32:40,625

So we must learn how to love deep

557

00:32:40,750 --> 00:32:44,712

and long in relationships

that are not always easy.

558

00:32:45,630 --> 00:32:47,840

We need to be committed to minister

559

00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,843

out of the love of Jesus Christ

560

00:32:50,969 --> 00:32:53,096

and out of his great love.

561

00:32:53,096 --> 00:32:57,725

We support trauma survivors in

doing the next thing that they're able to.

562

00:32:57,976 --> 00:33:01,354

We don't just hand them a list and say,

okay, you got to be able to do all this,

563

00:33:01,729 --> 00:33:02,563

this, this, this, this.

564

00:33:02,563 --> 00:33:05,316

Because we're not in charge of

their healing process anyway.

565

00:33:06,401 --> 00:33:06,943

We really

566

00:33:06,943 --> 00:33:09,946

do believe that Jesus is going to be

the one who guides them.

567

00:33:10,863 --> 00:33:16,035

so we come alongside and support the next

thing that they are feeling ready to do.

568

00:33:17,036 --> 00:33:20,164

And we need to be hope carriers

for these individuals

569

00:33:20,164 --> 00:33:24,043

because they endure so many tough things

every day.

570

00:33:25,169 --> 00:33:28,172

People who are experiencing PTSD,

571

00:33:28,756 --> 00:33:31,759

they exercise courage every single day

572

00:33:32,135 --> 00:33:35,054

in order to live their life well.

573

00:33:35,054 --> 00:33:39,600

So the trauma informed health care

movement recognizes that respect

574

00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,646

and humility in relationships

is as healing

575

00:33:43,646 --> 00:33:46,649

for trauma as medications.

576

00:33:47,108 --> 00:33:50,820

That's the other thing about this movement

is that they're not oversimplifying it

577

00:33:50,820 --> 00:33:53,948

anymore, like where it used to be like,

oh, you're having panic attacks.

578

00:33:53,948 --> 00:33:55,658

Take this pill.

579

00:33:55,658 --> 00:33:57,994

The trauma informed movement

is actually saying, actually,

580

00:33:57,994 --> 00:33:59,537

there's a relational aspect

581

00:33:59,537 --> 00:34:02,749

that is so needed

for people who have experienced trauma.

582

00:34:03,499 --> 00:34:07,795

And so I wonder if the corollary

for that in our church setting,

583

00:34:08,296 --> 00:34:11,507

maybe the lesson for us is that respect

584

00:34:11,507 --> 00:34:14,510

and humility in our relationships

585

00:34:14,635 --> 00:34:19,223

is more healing for trauma

than prescribing a Bible verse

586

00:34:19,515 --> 00:34:22,894

or thinking that because I prayed for you,

you should be better now.

587

00:34:23,895 --> 00:34:24,645

because we do our

588

00:34:24,645 --> 00:34:27,690

own kinds of religious prescribing,

sometimes.

589

00:34:28,608 --> 00:34:32,403

and I think it would,

I think it would be good for us to know

590

00:34:33,029 --> 00:34:36,032

that walking alongside

relationally with respect

591

00:34:36,574 --> 00:34:39,118

and humility will go a long way

592

00:34:39,118 --> 00:34:42,121

for the healing process and trauma.

593

00:34:43,539 --> 00:34:44,999

That sounds to me like wisdom.

594

00:34:44,999 --> 00:34:48,336

Thank you for what

you've shared here in this episode.

595

00:34:48,669 --> 00:34:51,672

Thank you for talking with us about trauma

and how our churches

596

00:34:51,672 --> 00:34:54,675

can be more trauma informed.

597

00:34:55,384 --> 00:34:56,761

If we're willing to learn.

598

00:34:56,761 --> 00:34:58,679

There's much to be learned.

599

00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:00,640

Definitely!

600

00:35:01,474 --> 00:35:04,602

Thank you for watching this episode

of Anabaptist Perspectives.

601

00:35:05,061 --> 00:35:08,648

This is the second episode

that we have recorded with Janelle Glick.

602

00:35:09,607 --> 00:35:10,900

You can find the link to her

603

00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:14,070

first episode with us about peace

and relationships below.

604

00:35:14,695 --> 00:35:18,407

For the complete library of blog posts

and episodes that we have published,

605

00:35:18,699 --> 00:35:21,702

visit anabaptistperspectives.org

606

00:36:55,588 --> 00:36:56,380

Do you think the iPad is

607

00:36:56,380 --> 00:36:58,466

distracting to have it vertically

rather than laying down.

608

00:36:58,466 --> 00:36:59,425

On this camera?

609

00:36:59,425 --> 00:37:02,261

So I think, oh, okay. Good.

610

00:37:02,261 --> 00:37:05,973

So Carl,

this is the intro for the first episode,

611

00:37:06,140 --> 00:37:09,310

which is about peaceful relationships.

612

00:37:15,566 --> 00:37:18,152

What does peace within oneself

613

00:37:18,152 --> 00:37:20,988

and with others have to do with the peace

614

00:37:20,988 --> 00:37:23,991

and well-being of the community?

615

00:37:30,748 --> 00:37:33,417

What does peace within oneself

616

00:37:33,417 --> 00:37:37,338

and with others have to do with the peace

and well-being

617

00:37:37,505 --> 00:37:40,508

of the larger community?

618

00:37:52,603 --> 00:37:52,853

Okay.

619

00:37:52,853 --> 00:37:54,814

You're good. Okay.

620

00:37:54,814 --> 00:37:59,318

And this is the intro

for the second episode with Janelle Glick.

621

00:37:59,986 --> 00:38:02,947

it's the one about

622

00:38:02,947 --> 00:38:05,908

trauma and trauma informed churches.

623

00:38:12,331 --> 00:38:14,583

For those looking on,

624

00:38:14,583 --> 00:38:18,629

those who have experienced

trauma may be suffering unnecessarily.

625

00:38:19,588 --> 00:38:21,966

How can Christians support

those who have experienced

626

00:38:21,966 --> 00:38:25,344

trauma rather

than driving their suffering deeper?

627

00:38:27,179 --> 00:38:30,182

How can churches offer a loving care?

628

00:38:34,478 --> 00:38:37,481

How does that wording

turn on the first sentence?

629

00:38:38,649 --> 00:38:39,692

For those looking.

630

00:38:39,692 --> 00:38:40,401

For those looking

631

00:38:40,401 --> 00:38:44,864

on, those who have experienced trauma

may appear to be suffering unnecessarily.

632

00:38:44,947 --> 00:38:47,199

Yeah. Is there a way

we can frame that more clearly?

633

00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:48,576

No. That was that was good.

634

00:38:48,576 --> 00:38:52,038

I mean, I didn't hear

you say the word appear, so I was,

635

00:38:53,289 --> 00:38:56,167

was oh,

636

00:38:56,167 --> 00:38:56,625

okay.

637

00:38:56,625 --> 00:38:59,462

I mean, that would be bad news

to leave that out. Yeah.

638

00:38:59,462 --> 00:39:02,590

so, Carl, make sure that the word appears

in the first sentence,

639

00:39:02,590 --> 00:39:04,759

and I'll try again

and try to get the words right.

640

00:39:04,759 --> 00:39:09,597

And maybe start with to those looking

on, rather than for those looking,

641

00:39:10,139 --> 00:39:13,225

okay, I think I might be

a little more clear and less.

642

00:39:13,225 --> 00:39:14,435

That's not chromatically.

643

00:39:14,435 --> 00:39:18,064

No, that's grammatically good

and I think probably clear.

644

00:39:18,606 --> 00:39:19,815

So I will try again.

645

00:39:22,860 --> 00:39:24,779

To those looking on,

646

00:39:24,779 --> 00:39:28,949

those who have experienced trauma

may appear to be suffering unnecessarily.

647

00:39:29,992 --> 00:39:33,454

How can Christians support

those who have experienced trauma

648

00:39:33,704 --> 00:39:36,707

rather than driving the suffering deeper?

649

00:39:36,999 --> 00:39:39,960

How can churches respond?

650

00:39:41,295 --> 00:39:42,880

That sound good?

651

00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:44,340

Okay,

652

00:39:44,340 --> 00:39:47,343

you go one more, run your good.

653

00:39:50,388 --> 00:39:52,264

To those looking on,

654

00:39:52,264 --> 00:39:55,267

those who have experienced

trauma may appear

655

00:39:55,393 --> 00:39:58,396

to be suffering unnecessarily.

656

00:39:58,813 --> 00:40:00,272

How can

657

00:40:00,272 --> 00:40:03,275

how can Christian support

those who have experienced trauma

658

00:40:04,068 --> 00:40:07,029

rather than driving the suffering deeper?

659

00:40:07,029 --> 00:40:10,032

How can churches respond?

660

00:40:30,177 --> 00:40:33,180

so, Carl, this is the outro for our

661

00:40:33,931 --> 00:40:36,892

episode one about peace and relationships.

662

00:40:42,898 --> 00:40:45,901

Thank you for watching this episode

of Anabaptist Perspectives.

663

00:40:46,152 --> 00:40:49,613

For the complete library of the blog posts

and episodes that we have published,

664

00:40:49,947 --> 00:40:53,033

visit Anabaptist perspectives.org.

665

00:40:59,081 --> 00:41:01,459

Thank you for watching this episode

with Janelle.

666

00:41:01,459 --> 00:41:05,754

Click for the complete collection

of episodes and blog posts

667

00:41:05,754 --> 00:41:06,922

that we have published.

668

00:41:06,922 --> 00:41:09,800

Visit and a Baptist perspectives.org.

669

00:41:33,699 --> 00:41:36,702

And Carl,

this is the outro for the second episode

670

00:41:36,702 --> 00:41:39,705

with Janelle Glick about trauma.

671

00:41:40,998 --> 00:41:44,210

Thank you for watching this episode

of Anabaptist Perspectives.

672

00:41:44,668 --> 00:41:48,255

This is the second episode

that we have recorded with Janelle Glick.

673

00:41:49,215 --> 00:41:50,508

You can find the link to her

674

00:41:50,508 --> 00:41:53,677

first episode with us about peace

and relationships below.

675

00:41:54,303 --> 00:41:58,015

For the complete library of blog posts

and episodes that we have published,

676

00:41:58,307 --> 00:42:01,310

visit anabaptistperspectives.org

677

00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,142

Maybe the difference

is that in the mainstream movement,

678

00:42:42,142 --> 00:42:46,313

they would see it as sort of something

they can learn and do all by themselves.

679

00:42:46,313 --> 00:42:49,483

And as Christians,

we think about how it is

680

00:42:49,483 --> 00:42:53,654

Christ and His Spirit in us

that enables us to do this kind of care.

681

00:42:54,029 --> 00:42:58,284

But it's still good, I think, for us

to hear what the trauma informed

682

00:42:58,284 --> 00:43:02,246

movement is saying and kind of say, well,

how are we doing with that then,

683

00:44:22,159 --> 00:44:23,077

Tell me that you want.