I think many people who dive in have aspirations of climbing that, you know, corporate ladder. And the way that I've thought about it for a very long time, years now, you know, almost 20 years is, it's three phases to a career. Now different people might have different things that they've read about or applied, but for me it's, you go through the first stage is survive. The second stage is to thrive. And these are all emotional, you know, psychological stages. Right. And then the last stage is to create where you get to a point where you so up there that you can put other people on, or you can guide people at that point in time. And that's the Holy grail to me. We'll

discuss race and how it plays a factor and how we didn't even talk about this topic because we were afraid.

A black.

Welcome to a Black Executive Perspective podcast, the safe space where we discuss all matters related to race, especially race in corporate America. I'm your host, Tony Tidbit

and I'm your co host, Chris P. Reed.

And again, we are live at WNHU 88. 7 on the Richter dial University, New Haven's podcast studio. Want to thank them for hosting a black executive perspective podcast. Actually, the students will be back next week. So we've got a lot of people running around here. So we look forward to seeing them go chargers.

We also want to thank and help to appreciate our partners at CODE M Magazine. com CODE M magazine, where the mission is saving the black family by first saving the black man. That's CODE M Magazine to m. com.

Code M. Check them out. So today, Chris and I are going to explore the challenging journey up the corporate ladder. Focusing on personal and widespread hurdles, we'll discuss imposter syndrome and the effect on professionals in corporate America. We're going to debunk myths around corporate hierarchies and the limitations of rigid job roles that stifle creativity. We'll also exam workplace politics, revealing the patterns that influence leadership advancement and how subjective criteria. Often change the standards of success. So my brother, you ready to dive in into the corporate leadership, corporate ladder, uh, topic.

Absolutely. You know, this

is something we both been working in corporate America for a long period of time. So, uh, you ready to tackle it?

And give it our perspective.

All right, buddy. Let's talk about it.

All right. The one thing, you know, I think that when you are going to do something, you want to do your best at it. And that includes your career. And so if you get into this area of corporate America. I think many people who dive in have aspirations of climbing that, you know, corporate ladder. And the way that I've thought about it for a very long time, years now, you know, almost 20 years is, is three phases to a career. Now different people might have different things that they've read about or apply, but for me is you go through the first stage is survive. The second stage is to thrive. And these are all emotional, you know, psychological stages, right? And then the last stage is to create where you get to a point where you so up there that you can put other people on, or you can guide people at that point in time. And that's the Holy grail to me is when you can create lives and opportunities for those who are developing and coming up under you, you know, in the same route, but it's a tough climb and understanding how and when and where to move and position and attack and fall back and all of that. It becomes very tough, especially when you come from a certain environment or you come from a certain personality perspective where you, you know, um, you seem somewhat out of your element depending on how you were raised. You know, I say all the time, Ivy league schools. Teach leaders like you go to, you go to Harvard to become in charge of something. You don't go to Harvard to become an employee. You know what I mean? They don't have that. They don't really have that class, right? You learn how to lead employees. You go to other schools to learn how to fit in and make it work or whatever the case may be. So those of us who didn't have that silver spoon or didn't have that, The education geared at making you in charge of others, you have to find your way. And it's a personality mix. It's a kind of figuring it out. I earlier I was talking to some brothers and talked about it like being double Dutch, right? You learning, you rocking back and forth, knowing when to jump in, you know, without getting hit in the face with the rope. Right. And so in that regard, I think that I know you and I had a candid conversation recently where your personality being, uh, someone just naturally who you are, the military, all these other things kind of helped you go in there with your chest out. And it was like, I can do this. And I came in a different side door, right? You came in the front door. I came in the service. I came in the side door and just wanted to figure it out and survive. And so I think that would be important for us to talk about those two perspectives and how we navigated our careers to end up meeting each other ultimately, which was which was a wonderful thing. But the reality of it is, uh, it's more than one way to skin a cat. And you and I are two, you know, examples of Different perspectives on things as it relates to that corporate hierarchy, that dynamic of gaining or ascending up the ladder. And I think it's a valuable, uh, conversation to be had.

Yeah. Well, number one, thank you for that, my brother. I really appreciate it. So right off the bat, so I'm going to, there's, you said a lot. They kick us off, which I really appreciate, right? Um, some of it I agree with, some of I disagree with, right? But before I get into that, I want, I want to back up because you said there's three levels. You said there's survive,

survive,

what was the second level?

Thrive.

Thrive. And then the third level was what?

Create.

Okay. So just do me a favor, do everybody a favor. When you say survive, like, what do you mean?

So you get into this job. So this is, think about young you, anybody that was a young you, you get into this job and you want to show that you belong. You want to show that you're going to make it past this 90 day probationary period. You want to get vested in the, in the 401k, you know, you want to get vested in the 401k. You just want to make sure that this works for you as much as it works for them. And that's really, you want to survive the, the newness of things. You want to figure it out. You want to understand how things go around here. And you want to see where you could apply your best self to the situation. To me, that's level one. And it depends on if you feel equipped or capable of that role, or if you got hooked up or whatever the case may be to get in there, you might have a little more paranoia as it relates to your survival. But everybody that starts something new should start with a baseline of having something to hang their hat on, prove. Give the first impression, whatever the case may be in that regard.

Yeah. So, so that makes total sense. So I, so the word survive is a tough word. Okay. Just from my perspective, I got a new job. I just want to survive. All right. So, but I like the part where you said, Hey, you want to fit in. You want to come in and prove yourself. You want to learn the landscape because that's really what it's about, right, is learning the landscape. I think the majority of people, when they start a new job at, at Xerox or, you know, uh, Warner media or, uh, CBS or whatever company they're, they're excited. They, they're, they have, their eyes are wide open, right? They're coming in. They feel that they're going to make a mark. They, they, they want to, um, they're ambitious. They want to grow, right? They're not looking to stay stagnant. Right. So I think for the most part, everybody, not everybody, but majority people start that way right now. Yes, you have to, uh, you know, you have to learn the landscape. It reminds me of when I went in the army. Okay. When I went basic training. Okay. And I remember, uh, we were in basic and they took us out to see some movie, some military movie. I can't remember. And because the drill sergeants wasn't all over us, we started acting up a little bit in the theater. Okay, because the lights are out, you know what I'm saying? We got, I mean, trust me up to this point. You have no freedom, right? These guys are all over, right? We get in the theater. We act in the fool. Okay, at least not to the standards of what we were doing. Right? So as soon as the movie is over, they, they. He was in formation, marches back. And I remember the first sergeant saying something. He was like, look, we're not joining you. You're joining us. Okay. So in other words, you're going to follow these rules or you ain't going to be here. And so it's no different when you go to corporate America, there's rules, there's things that you need to learn. All right. For you to become successful going into the military, I couldn't be successful doing my own thing. I had to follow the military a little bit different because a lot more rigid stuff that nature versus going into corporate America. And I just think the majority of people who go in, they're excited. They want to do well, but they need to learn the landscape and sometimes, but not learning the landscape can trip you up. Right. And if we go to today, it's totally different now because a lot of companies are hybrid, right? Young people coming out of college, you know, they're, they're maybe working two, three days from home. So they don't get a chance to go in and learn the landscape, learn the, you know, You know, the etiquette. All right. When I was in the military, I had to learn the etiquette, what to do, what to say, how to stand, how to look all those type things. Take your hat off when you come inside, put your hat, all those things. Right? So same thing in corporate America. You want to come in and you want to learn the etiquette. The landscape, how to deal with your coworkers, how to navigate or communicate with your boss, how you learn stuff, not just, uh, directly, but indirectly how you build your brand. So there's a million things that you need to learn. But at the end of the day, you won't learn. If, um, if, if, if you won't learn in terms of not being there or not being involved. So to me, that's the first part. Now, if you want to say that's part of surviving. It.

Okay.

All right,

Tony. I've seen some people who were capable young and they didn't have any survival skills. And so what happened was, and I can tell you verbatim, I had a leader come to me and say, Hey, why is why are we losing young talent? What is the issue? Well, first of all, it's the young talent and it's how you got to understand them where they are and and how they see things. But more importantly, I sat through an orientation dynamic for new hires and interns and things like that, where a guy that was at a senior vice president position said to these young folks. I see so much talent and it was political, but these kids don't see it that way. I see so much talent in the audience. One day I might be working for you. And they took that more literal than they should have. Right? So they come in and they work two months, three months, and they like, when is the next brass ring? When is the promotion? When is the, you know, I, I, I mentored a guy at a 23 years old making six figures. I'm thinking, He on easy street. He got a good trajectory. He going to work talking about being a billion, a millionaire. And I was like, you in the wrong environment in a fortune 15 company talking about, you need to hurry up and be a millionaire. That, that takes time for that cake to bake. And so these kids come in entitled, so they come in and then they get disenchanted and then they, they leave or they get pushed out because they get mad because I was told by him that within three years I could be his boss.

Why the hell did you believe

that?

I mean, But, but is that surviving? Is that's just the expectations are not setting the right, right. Yeah, because you were, you're right. They, they, there is a different level, you know, uh, of expectations or you, you want to use the word entitlement, right. You know, when I was coming up. You were just happy to have a job, right? You were happy to be there. Um, and at the day, you, uh, you did whatever people told you to do. That's right. And so, because that was part, that was part of, yeah, so, okay. You want to say survive, but at the end of the day, you want to grow in the organization, right? That's correct. So you, you, you were going to be tutored. All right. By people who've been there for a long period of time. So they're going to show you the ropes. And now they don't always tell you, I'm going to show you the ropes, but it's just automatically you learn from people who've been there for a long period of time, right? You had no expectations in terms of you're going to get promoted. You want to get you, your goal is to get promoted, but you didn't, there wasn't a timeframe. There was none of that, right? The goal was I'm going to come in, I'm going to work hard and they're going to know, hopefully they know my name and I'm able to move up. That's as far as you, most people would think. Okay. So, so yeah, it is totally different. I just think that, and, and, and, and just because somebody took it literally. Okay. Cause look, I've been in places before and people said that, Hey, there's great talent here. One of you guys, believe it or not, you guys are gonna. You know, take over and you're going to be leaders. I don't think we took it like, all right, next week. All right. Or in a couple of weeks or in a few months, we're going to do that. We just took it as, I don't even think to be fair. I don't even, and again, I'm speaking for myself. I don't even think that I even took it as, I just remember it was a conversation and I didn't even look at it as this, this is me, or this could be me or whatever the case may be, because you are a hundred percent focus on doing a good job. Right. That's number one. Learning your job and doing a good job. That's it. Okay. And then from there you get visions of grandeur and stuff to that nature. But at the day, you're trying, you're getting a paycheck. You want to get paid. Okay. And you want to come in and you want people to say, Hey, Chris did it. We like Chris. We like Tony. We like Noel. We like Michaela. We like them. Right. That's number one before anything else happens. Right. So, so I just think. So I'm, all I'm saying is that the survive thing, I hear you, right. But I just think it's like learning how to navigate the landscape. All right, because sometimes to your point there, the expectations are out of whack. Okay. And, and to your point, we've seen people want to leave after six months because they didn't get a promotion. Okay. Or this, you know, I, my, I didn't think this was what I thought it was going to be. Right. So I just think that at the end of the day, those are, um, You know, I think that, I think that's more of a society, a generational stand.

I do too. And so one of the things that's showing up in studies is the commitment or the patients that's being exercised by the Gen Z, the, you know, the younger, you know, folks in the idea of the biggest investment that you'll make classically, of course, somebody's going to say a house, right? So that's, that's just no, no big investment as a house, but your house, your car, Your education and your career, like these are significant investments, but people are not looking at their career as an investment. And as you know, by investing in things, you get in early, you continue to put in on it and it grows slowly. It's not hitting the lick. It's not hitting the jackpot is not taking these big wild swings and these big gambles, but people tend to want to do that more and more often. Recently in their career, they want to, they want to come in hot. They want to come in and be the supervisor day one and tell you how they think it should go. And it's like, hold up, have you, we've been around for a hundred years as a company and you come in all these bright ideas and then you get frustrated and upset because we're not taking everything you say verbatim. To the CEO and and that's what I mean by you got to come in and kind of like you said peep the scene. Understand the landscape, see where you can fit in. And make it to the anniversary, make it the two anniversaries. They don't get to the point where your reputation is. So, um, disgruntled because you got all these ideas, they not putting into place and all this net. And you have a lot of these younger entrepreneurs, these, these kids that are free thinkers. Outside the box. Remember that became a thing. We want people to think outside the box and all that. Well, like you said, from a military perspective, y'all can't have a whole bunch of outside the box, people in the army that don't, that's called chaos. It don't work. Here's

the thing though, buddy. So let me ask you this question. How long does a job become a career?

For my and I'll give you my testimony. My testimony was like most people. I think it's, it's in the high seventies now of people who don't have a role in what they got a degree in or what the school for. Right. And it might be higher than that.

I get that point. What I'm saying is, is that how long. Does somebody have to work somewhere where it becomes, they come in and have a job and then after a certain amount of time, they now have a career. What's the, what's the, what's the timeframe on that?

Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't know the timeframe on that. I think that it's a matter of when you get in, it's kind of like a liberal arts education. You get in and figure out what attracts you and what you're good at. But as I was stating, You just want a job to start off with, you just want to get in the door.

But that's the point. So, so that's why we have to understand the majority of people who start off. It's just a job,

just a job, not a career.

Right. Correct. So when it's just a job, okay. You're not, uh, uh, a hundred percent sold on it. You're not a hundred percent committed to it. Correct. So they don't give you what you want. You're willing to come because there's no investment yet. Right. And to be fair, unless you a doctor. Right. Or you a lawyer or something of that nature, the majority of people who come into corporate America, they start off with a job and then after a while navigating and you start liking what you do and you start liking the people around you and then you can see an avenue or where you could go and then it becomes a career, right? And

I believe that's when the thrive hits, but Tony, people aren't even giving it a chance. It's like a relationship with a woman. You got to get a chance. To mature and marinate to get to the point where you're willing to engage, get engaged and get married. But you got people that's just hopping around from like they dating everything because they so

impatient. Let me ask you this stuff. So again, all right. So, you know, it's easy to sit back and be like, they doing this, they doing that. Let me ask you this. Yeah. When you, when you graduated college, how many jobs did you have

when I was in one

place for, and you stayed there for years?

No, I left, I left, I left after a year, a couple of years, a couple of years, about a year, a year and a half. And then what

did you do after that? Was it in the same field?

No, it was in the field. No, exactly. And

then you went, you see my point here, my brother got you is that at the end of the day, when you first come out of school or military, whatever the case may be, when you first, you don't know if this is going to be forever. Okay, you're that's why it's about learning. And navigating, right? The main thing is doing your best,

right?

That's the key. You, I, I've been at places where, you know, I didn't, uh, I remember I was at, I think it was a traveler's insurance company, right?

And I was in,

I was in the accounting. I was NCA accounting, accounting clerk there. So it was back then. Late eighties, right? And I remember the, uh, senior director or VP, somebody, he came to me because again, I I'm telling you, you come in, you work, I came in, worked hard. I wasn't thinking about, I want to go here. I want to go here. This was a job. Okay. It was a job at travelers insurance company. 20, 000 people worked there. It was a job. Okay. And the bottom line is I was doing such a good job. I remember senior director VP, he came by one day. And he sat, he sat, uh, came and sat on my table, my desk. And he said, you know, Tony, you know, you can make a lot of money doing this. Right. Something to that point, he was giving me a pep talk. Right. And I was like, Oh, for real? He was like, yeah, you know, you're doing well, blah, blah, blah. Right. Yeah. Today I wasn't looking for that to be my career. It was a job, you know what I'm saying? So I didn't, wasn't looking to stay at traveler's insurance company for 20 years and some people did. Right. So my point I'm trying to make is that part, the, the, the first thing when you come into corporate America is you're coming in with the mindset. Number one, if you want to do a good job, you want to work hard. You want a good, good job. And then you want to navigate and learn the ropes. You may not stay there for a long period of time, because here's the other caveat to that. What's the other piece to that, that makes it that, um, Decide to somebody who's going to stay in that.

So for me, I can tell you, I started off at the state farm headquarters. And when you say 18 months, I was there for 18 months. And let me tell you why I get there and I'm thinking, man, these people are so smart, they dress so nice, all this, all that. And after about six months, that them rosy glasses had dull. And I realized these people ain't better than me. Like they not smarter than me. So I can compete here. And I ran into a guy who happened to be a director. Yeah. He telling me about his job. Tell me about his role. Tell me about his team. He's giving me all this information. I'm like, this is what I would like to do this. I would like to do this at State Farm headquarters, blah, blah, blah. Everything looks good. And when I said, how long have you been here? And he was like, Oh no. How long have you been director? He said, I just became a director two years ago. And I was like, okay. I like to keep in mind. I'm 20, 24. Right. And I said, how long have you been at the company? He said 22 years. I was like, Oh, I'm not waiting 20 years. Like in my mind, I'm kid. Right. I'm not working 20 years to become just a director. You're like three levels above that. No, I can't even do it. And I ended up moving to another company. Totally that I felt had a greater trajectory for me and my talents at that point in time, because like these kids I'm talking about now, I thought that I had more to offer than to wait around because I felt like he was very talented. I didn't know his whole story in candor, didn't know his whole story, but that's the thing. When you get to these organizations, you got to see your CEO, your executives, your VPs, your directors, managers, and then. Everybody else, right? It's the lower levels. That's just the corporate hierarchy, right? And he was only at the second phase of that. Like me and him was one level apart as far as I was concerned in the pantheon of how corporations run and it took too long for him to get there,

right? Well, and again, those could be personal situations, right? Who knows? He could have been a, you know, somebody that wasn't a high performer and they kept him on and then eventually he turned. Yeah. So there's a million reasons, right? But what I was trying, what I was alluding to was a lot of it also has to do with You know, the, your boss, do you get along with your boss? Are you, do you have a relationship with that person? Right. Do you like working with them? Are there a good manager? Are they, do they have your best interests at heart? Are they helping you grow? Are you learning from them? So those are a lot of the other, the, the other, uh, uh, intangibles and why people either leave or they cut out. Right. And so I think what we should do here, let's, let's, let's, and again, like you said, we, we, um, we've come in, you know, we have different experiences, but we have the same experiences, right? So if somebody new was coming in, they just graduated. Oh, well, let me just say this. I want to, the one area that I disagree with you on was when you said, Hey, If you go to Harvard, they're creating leaders. You go to another school. They, and I disagree with that. Cause that's what

they say, Tony. I didn't say that. Harvard said

that what they want to say, but go to, you could go to university, uh, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and I'm not picking on a school. I'm just, it just came to my head. Right. Right. And graduate there and still come in and be a leader. So one of the things is, so, you know, is that when you go to college and you graduate, uh, uh, With a degree. Okay. Typically you start off depending on the role, depending on, but a lot of times you start off in management. Okay. So, so if you don't have a degree, you ain't starting off in management in the military. If you have a degree, you don't have to go to West Point, but if you, again, you went to university of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, and you have a degree, you can start off as an officer. Okay. All right, which if you don't have a degree, you start off as a private since saying so by going, it doesn't really matter. Um, you can go to any college and still come in and have leadership qualities and stuff to that nature. Or you could go to any college or you could go to Harvard or, or, or, or, uh, uh, Yale, whatever. I don't have no leadership qualities. Okay. I just think that it's, it's, you know, I just think it's based on the individual, right? I, yes. To your point, do certain schools, you know, focus, you know, on the, you're going to lead, you're going to, you're going to be this, you're going to create this, you're going to be an entrepreneur, you're going to be a bit, yes, I, I, I'm not saying that's not the case, but I just think that at the end of the day, you go to school, regardless of what school you got, you have the ability and depending on what field you come in, you can have the ability to start off, you know, and, and be able to move up into management pretty quickly. Okay. That doesn't mean you're going to be successful.

But, but, but it goes back to, you know, life is a confidence game, good, bad, or indifferent life is a confidence game. And there's some institutions that reinforce that confidence. They, they, it comes, if you go to Notre Dame or Stanford or whatever, You come in with a, with a different kind of scarlet letter on your chest of confidence that says they taught me to be better or to be a leader or whatever the case may be. And then you have situations where, like you said, you went to Podunk university, Spoon Valley community college and you have all these intangibles, but you have so much more to prove because your resume doesn't resound. You know what I'm saying? From, from many different factors, even from a, And of course, for us as black professionals, from a pay scale perspective,

see, here's the thing, and this is where we get and we're going to talk about imposter syndrome shortly. Okay, cool. This is where we kind of this right here. This conversation we have right now. This is where, um, this starts off with the imposter syndrome stuff because we think people. Because they went here or they got this, or they have this degree or they have this title that they're set up and they're bad and they're not, because in the day that all those things are great, they're great, but at the end of the day, human beings are human beings. You could, there's people I know went to West point scared to death in terms of, you know, being a leader. Don't even know how to act. Devay, they're, they're faking a funk because they still don't feel it themselves. They don't have confidence in them. It doesn't really. So my point is, and then, so a lot of times when we go to school or when we start a job, we start a job or we're somewhere, and then we see that this person's got a master's degree or this and that, and they went to Dartmouth. Oh man, how I'm going to compete with that. This, you know, I mean, this is where we start piling on stuff that maybe at the end of the day, that's great for them. But that doesn't diminish you. All right. And that doesn't mean that they're, you know, got it all together because that's not true, right? So, so I just think at the end of the day, we all have to, you know, I, and you said the word confidence at the first thing, the first thing you have to obtain. To be successful in anything is confidence, right? Would you agree with that? Absolutely. And then so how does that start? You could, you could start at that. You could be a valedictorian. You could be on the Dean's list. You could be. But then when you start this company. You don't have the confidence yet that you're going to come in. Sometimes you do, but then there could be times that you still feel a little insecure, or you don't think you rate well enough, or even though you went through all this type stuff, right. And which can affect you in terms of you being successful, at least at that organization. So I think one of the major things is, is coming in. And, um, you know, affiliating yourself with the organization, with your boss, with your coworkers, getting confidence in doing the job that they're asking you to do. Right. And then from there. Those qualities and all the other things that was, that you were, that was, you were taught and stuff that nature most likely would come to the forefront. But I think for today, most people today, when they come to corporate America. Right. Either. And you said it, I think entitlement is really the big thing that hamstrings them because they have a sense of, even if they ain't confident, even if they're, you know, trying to hold on or let's use your word survive, right? They still say, well, it's been six months and I still ain't, I didn't go from account executive to senior account executive. All

right.

Well, I didn't go from here to here and that's the wrong attitude to have. The attitude to have is you come in and you work hard, okay? And you, you, you assimilate and you, you meet your coworkers and you make friends and you build your brand that way, right? Where other people in the organization saying that Chris, he's all, is he on your team, Tony? He's great. I love those little things are the things that help you build your brand and help set you up For promotions and opportunities, not some, you know, invisible, uh, timeframe.

I agree, but you, you, and we'll talk about this when we get to the imposter syndrome, some companies have began to acquiesce and create these mid level roles or these tiered structures to give people a vanity title or whatever the case may be. And so what happens is because of social media, because of your network, your alumni network, things of that nature, you was. First, third, fifth in your class. Doesn't matter. Right? And then you graduated with some people and Rob went to this firm and you went to this firm and then Rob eight months later is saying, woo hoo. They gave me the next, you know, keys to the private bathroom. And you're like, hold up, I'm better than Rob. And that starts getting in your head where you, if you don't have anybody, uh, investing in you, or you don't have a corporate dynamic that creates mentorship or that helps you understand how things go here, you're looking at Rob's situation Inappropriately and comparing your climb to Rob's climb or to whoever's climbing. I've had people talk to me about this, uh, a lot where they said, Hey, I went to school with this guy, all the guys I went to school with, they have these places, they make it this kind of bread and they doing this then the third. And I'm like a haircut. Don't look the same on everybody. You have no idea what else is going on there. You don't have no idea. You don't know the whole story. You just know the highlights,

but

unfortunately that starts to chip away. At a psyche of people like a disenfranchised people of people that feel like they had to fight extra Anyway, that starts to chip away at them because they feel like man I got to the point where I had a little bit of confidence, got here and they saying, stay in the corner, stay in the corner, stay, shut up and dribble, stay in the corner. And it chips away at you a little bit.

I, so I hear that, man, but this is where, again, I'm just going by my own experience. All right. You know, I, and I, I, I just came in and just wanted to do a good job. I mean, I, I, I didn't get caught up in all that. Okay. And, and, and don't get me wrong. I've heard other people say those things, right? Oh, I've been here this time and this, you know, I didn't get promoted. All right. And, you know, but it wasn't six months. All right. Well, I'm talking years ago. Right. So I've been a couple of years or they passed me up. I just heard those people and I just, you know, that was their situation. Right. And to be fair. You know, I've been in the ad advertising industry since 1997. Okay. But just to be fair, everything prior to that, it was no career. Those was job. All right. And so when you're working at a job, I'm just being honest with you. You know, now, all that being said. I got promoted at a lot of those jobs. Okay. But I wasn't looking to stay at those companies. Right. And so, you know, I was always looking for the next, better the next thing for making more money and stuff to that nature. But I wasn't looking like, Oh, this person made this and I didn't, I was focused on doing focus on what I can control. And I think that's where people want to be at. What can you control? You can control. Two things, right, your attitude and your work effort, okay, and by approaching that nine times out of 10, what I've always found out in my career, when I focus on my attitude and my work ethic, nine times in everything worked out, right, all those things took care of themselves. But if I'm looking left and I'm looking right, and I'm trying to compare myself. To all these other things then guess what i'm not focused on the things i need to be focused for me to become successful And and here's the thing though, too The other thing where people miss it and you said it a few minutes ago is that success is not linear Okay. Since you came in, did you go straight up like this? But it wasn't sideways backwards,

zigzag,

right? So it's not going to be that way. Now there could be a few people that they go like this, but that doesn't mean it's meant for everyone to go like this. And you never know when they stack stagnate or they go this, that, this, that. So you got to run your own race. You got to focus on you. Right. And look, there's a lot of, uh, uh, uh, Things you can't control this out of your control. Some people may get promoted before you. Some people may, but here's the thing. You don't have to stay at a company forever. Okay. But if you work hard and you build your brand and you focus on that attitude and that work ethic, guess what? Some company will come and say, guess what? We'll take it. We'll, we'll get, you see my point here. And I just think that's where we've kind of gone away from today because like you said, companies are, Hey, we'll give you this. We'll give you this. We'll give you this. And nobody's really worked at it. And then because they're getting stuff that they haven't put the work in, they're not ready. And this is where the imposter syndrome comes

in. Imposter syndrome is something that hooks many of us into an idea that we're not good enough. And by definition, maybe you've heard about it. It basically means it's, you know, it's a situation of an intellectual form of self doubt where we start to really get in our heads. We start to worry that our accomplishments don't really measure up to today's standards. We feel a sense of underperformance. We feel a sense of self scrutiny or worry that maybe we didn't deserve the spot that we have within an academic institution. For example, we didn't deserve our job, that if only people really knew the real us. And they discovered that, that they would just be blown away at how bad we are. And a word sometimes that you could think of is like a wannabe, or a fraud, or a phony. And this is something that is a reality in today's landscape, where it feels like it's never enough. No matter how much we accomplish, there's always going to be more to do.

So I think that that's heavy because I can speak for myself and the idea and it evoked some, some memories for me where coming up and playing sports, it was easy because sports is a meritocracy, right? Either you, you win or you don't and you're talented or you aren't and it shows up on the field on the court or whatever the case may be. When I first got into. You know, corporate America was a situation where I got promoted quick early, like boom, boom, boom. It was, and it was within a matter of 8 months, 1 year. Like, I remember 1 time I got a promotion and I told the guy I haven't even been in this position for a year. He fell out laughing. Right? And so, but when I got to that corporate headquarters, um, I had a boss and you talked about this earlier a little bit. You kind of touched on this. I had a boss that was not supportive in that regard and she was so non supportive and wouldn't, for me, I felt like maybe the VP who put me in that role should have sold me better or, or buddy, like she should have known that I came under his recommendation because I thought she did everything she could to run me off. I thought she did everything she could to make me feel as if I don't belong here. I was the youngest person on the team by 16 years. But my, my acumen, my ability was there until she kept chipping away at like, it would be silly little things, but when you're in it, you don't realize that's what's going on. You think because I've been coached by so many different type of coaches. Oh, this is just her coaching style. I'm just far exceed that. I'm just going to show up and work harder, work harder, work harder. But I didn't realize I was negotiating. Against someone who didn't have the same destination as me. Like we didn't, she didn't want mutual benefit negotiations to come out of it. She, I was negotiating against a bad actor and it took for me in my young twenties to realize at some point, wait a minute. I think that she doesn't have, she would take all my work up to the, it wasn't until she was, I think she was sick or some kind of FMLA or something medical or whatever. And they had a replacement come in or somebody step in and her stead. Yeah. And, and the new person, lady named Nikki, Nikki said, excuse me, you take that contract up to the, to the seniors. You do this, you do that, you did all the work and I was like, Oh, that's, that's never happened. I never was allowed to shine and thrive and get into feeling into that confidence level of my own because this woman rejected everything. It was one point. I'm gonna say this and then we can move on just because it's, it's tough with me. It was one point, Tony, that I purposely created a contract dynamic, presented it to her. She rejected it because that's what she always did and five iterations later gave her the original one and she accepted it.

I was like, what are we doing?

What are we doing here?

Let me, let me ask you this though, bro. So that seems like more of you just had a boss that didn't support you, but did you, from an imposter syndrome standpoint, Did you feel like I can't do this job? Like I, I, I, they, um, they have me here and I don't really fit the bill. I don't, you know, I don't, um, they're going to find out that I really don't belong here. Right. Did you feel that way? Because it sounded like it was something

I must be missing. I felt like she knows she's in a lot of times. Also, when you're young, you believe that these titles and these people have earned these spots. You don't realize how the corporation really works. Right. You think that they got there because they did what they was supposed to do. Once again, that meritocracy, they did enough. They're smart enough. They're capable enough. They're in a leadership role because they're leaders now, because everybody that's an individual contributor is not designed to be a leader. You have doers and leaders. And just because you're a good doer does not make you a good leader. And I found out later by some teammates. And some mentors that was her situation. She was a good doer and then she pushed back and told them she wanted opportunity to lead. And I happened to be one of the Guinea pigs. I happened to get into one of the roles where, Hey, we're going to kick the tires on her. And she, she didn't last longer than me. Let me put it like that. But the fact is it did make me sit back and say, wait a second. I thought that I was this and that based off of, but maybe this isn't for me. Like you said, you, you get in there, you realize what works for you and what does it. And because she was saying so vehemently, this not my, this might not be for you. You're not excelling. And I had always excelled. So think about that too. When you've always excelled and you've always showed up and showed out. And then somebody in charge of you is saying not good enough, not good enough. I thought it was a coaching dynamic where she wanted to bring more out of me, but it was just exhausting me. And that's where the imposter syndrome kicked in.

Yeah, I, again, though, I, so I hear you. I don't, I just think that's more of you just had a bad boss, right? You know, versus you getting up. So look at it this way. There's people who get promoted into a position. Okay. They don't feel like they are adequate to do that. Forget the boss.

Right. Right. Right. Got you. Even if the

boss is supportive. Right. They don't feel like I can do this. Right. They're going to find me out. They're afraid to give reports because they feel that if they give the report, it ain't going to look right. Right. So those type things, even though. They are, have all the capabilities of doing it, right? It's just like, uh, the professor said, and what was her name? Just so we can give her some love, uh, Dr. Kristen, uh, Lee, who's the professor at Northeastern university, just like she said, is that they don't feel. That they can, they belong in this situation and it's in your head, right? Now the boss can make it worse. Right. But it seems like a situation that was probably a person who just didn't like you or might have been threatened by you. And so, you know, so those, and these are all the dynamics that you have to deal with when you're dealing with corporate America, right? If you're dealing with all these personalities and what other people's, Um, um, What their, uh, goals are or lack thereof and their insecurities and all the other things that you got to learn how to deal with and try to figure out. Right. But I think a lot of us, especially, and, and, and let's go to the next clip because she breaks down like what groups or who's mostly affected by imposter syndrome. Let's play the next clip.

Look at who is affected by imposter syndrome. For example, it happens in high achieving, high performing roles for folks. But it also happens to certain groups. It happens to people disproportionately because of race, because of class, because of gender, because of sexual orientation. and age and any of these other kinds of categories where sort of there are this in and out group situation or historic and current tide of marginalization, discrimination, and oppression. So it's sort of this whole thing of like a dominant group kind of came to this decision of what was good or what the metric should be. Or sort of defining it for the whole, even though that doesn't always fit. Or also many times we have barriers to access, um, in our lives and our professional and personal lives.

Yeah. So, so you can see, this is something that obviously high achieving people. And one of the things, when you look into it, you know, people who are perfectionists, all right, have. Impostors can, can be, can, uh, we'll have a posture syndrome or could be infected by it because everything is not going perfect. So they don't think that they rate. Okay. They don't think that they're, you know, on that level, right? I, I just, I, I, I'm, I must not belong here because it didn't come out. Right. Okay. Because they're perfectionists. So that's number 1, but number 2. The other thing is, is that Marge, like she said, marginalized groups, because what you're trying to do is you're assimilating into areas that you may not be familiar with, or you may not have a mentor or sponsor, somebody that's going to show you the ropes. Okay, and then now you got to stand up and you got to do it. And so you're going to, you may have doubt. You may feel like, oh, and then 9 times out of 10, we just talked about it. You know. A lot of times you got to figure stuff out for yourself. So, so let me give you an example. I had worked, I got a job. I was executive vice president of this company. And, um, I had to, uh, executive vice president of sales, I should say. And I had to go once a month to a board meeting out in LA, meet with the investors and stuff of that nature. Talk about, you know, our numbers and projections and all that type stuff. Right. I remember on the airplane. Right? Flying there, going to L. A., scared, because I never did that before, okay, and can I really do this? Am I, you know, they're going to look under the curtain and say, he don't belong here, okay? And so there was a fear, there was a nervousness, right? Because I've never done it before. And then I was there, I wanted to make sure that I said everything right. I wanted to sit a certain way. I wanted, you know, and here's the thing, I'm the only black guy there. Okay. So then, then you have to throw it in as she talked about, you have to throw that into the equation. All right. So, you know, pardon me. And then let's be fair. It was, you know, the cup, the numbers, the company wasn't growing like it should. So it's like, is this because of me? Is this, so these are the things that self doubt. That you start dealing with now, I remember I was working with the life coach at that time and, you know, and I, we would meet once a week and I would tell her what was going on. She was awesome. And she was the 1 saying Tony you're in your head. I'm saying you deserve this job because you are. You, they were, you were the best candidate. You had done a lot of this work. Yes. There's stuff here that you never done before, but those people that sitting around the boardroom, they only know this because they've been doing it longer than you. Not because there's some genius what the case may be. So she was good in terms of pumping up my, my confidence and getting, getting me out of my head. But those are the things that people will deal with when it comes to imposter syndrome. And nine times out of 10, they are adequate enough to To do these roles, but it's a mental thing. And a lot of times because they don't have the sponsorships or the mentorships in terms of people, you know, teaching you about these things and how to deal with and how to do these things. And that's what, that's what can happen.

But a lot of times when you're young, Tony, you don't have the discernment to know the difference between if it's a bad actor. Or if it's your lack of capability. So there's something called a Peter, the Peter principle, right? Where you get promoted to your level of incompetence. And so for me and my situation, I was young to where I didn't realize until I got mentors, sponsors, you know, people that invested in me to tell me it was in my head because what I was going by with what my leader was expressing to me was. Uh, inefficient or incapable. And so I didn't discern that this was her and her inadequacies or her insecurities. I believe what she was saying verbatim because my entire career up to that point, I had overachieved my entire career up to that point. I had been promoted and promoted and promoted. And I felt like, wait a second, did I finally reach my level? Of incompetence. Did I reach the level to where this is it for me? And I thought it, how I saw my trajectory, it was low. It was very low. And I was like, if this is it, I'm a buyer one and that's it. And I did all this damn school and all this other stuff. This is not going to work for me, but it took for me to be vulnerable and speak to people. Cause I didn't grow up around a lot of learned individuals and scholastic, you know, folks that had corporate. That's another thing. I didn't have a lot of corporate people in my family or in my life. And I had a lot of workers, not a lot of leaders that I had, you know, close relationships with. So it took a lot for me when, like I said, when she was out and that woman came in, Nikki Barnes and Nikki put me in her office, it was like, you are extremely defensive. I mean, every time something is said, you got all these emails and receipts that you come in and I was like, I was so, you know, scarred at that point. And she gave me grace and told me, this is what you need to do. This is how you should be approaching it. Talk to this person. This is, you're doing a great job and that's all I needed. You know, just like any athlete, sometimes you just need somebody to believe in you and then you can show up and show out and be who you naturally are. But I had this lady that was dimming my light and I didn't realize that, um, she was so effective at it.

Right. And

so that's when I was like, man, maybe, maybe she knows more than I, maybe, you know, it's something going on. And I tell this story all the time. And so, you know, a year into it, she's my boss. She's the horrible boss. And I'm talking to my teammates and they're telling me that she has a degree in music. And what does we do? And it was, things started to be revealed to me that I was like, Oh, this is her problem with me. This is this. And like you stated, ironically at a corporate headquarters. It was 88 people on the floor. Three of us was black,

right? Right.

Nobody else on my team.

Right.

And so a lot of that was playing. I was young. I was black. I was, I didn't have a life. All I had was that job. So I was doing the hell out of that job. And that was another thing. Cause I was pushing the pace. I was asking for more. I was winning awards and different things like that for the things that I was allowed to do, you know, on a smaller level, but I never got a chance to get into those big projects. And I started thinking. It was me. Once again, as we stated, you have to have someone to pull you out. And luckily you had that life coach to calibrate you and bring you back to reality as opposed to get out of your own head.

Well, here's the thing though, bro. So, so sometimes you're not going to have somebody, right? And so this is one thing I had to learn. Yes, she helped. There's no question, right? But. The thing is, is this, and this is one of the things we want to talk about when we talk about imposter syndrome. What can you do, right? Because yes, you definitely want to have mentors or stuff to that nature, right? You want to have people in your corner. Here's the thing though, and those are great, but one of the things I've learned in my life is what I call reference points. And I'll use you as an example. You just got finished saying, Hey, I had been successful, but I Everywhere I went till I got here. Okay. So think about that for a second. I've always thought of that as well. Well, look, I did this, this, this, this, and this, and I'm coming here. Even when I started struggling in the beginning, because I'm learning something new, but I just knew I always lend on those reference points that guess what? I didn't know this and I kept doing it and I became very good at it. Right. So this is no different, right? So those are the things you got to have your own self talk, right? Yes. It's great to have people around, but you have to look at the things that you've accomplished in your life already up to this point. And those things that you accomplish in the beginning, you didn't, wasn't good at those things either. Okay, you had to learn how to deal with those things and then you did and you overcame them and you, you surpassed them. And then that took you to here. So that's the 1 thing when we talk about imposter syndrome, we have to take a step back. And number 1 knows in our head, and then number 2, look at our prior accomplishments, look at how we were uncomfortable on these other things that we had to deal with the 1st time. And we. Accomplish them. We beat them, right? And if that's the case, you can do it here. And then more importantly, recognize that the people that you think have it all put together, right? That they're on the pedestal and they're this. Well, they have this title and they're that. They don't think nine times out of 10, they're no different than you and me, right. And they got there and you just said it, you know, once you start peeling the onion back, you find out that they, they got their own insecurities or they didn't graduate where they, you thought they were, or, you know, they speak with a lisp or they got one leg, all the things that you may think. Right. So that's where we have to really look at having people in our corner. It's great, but nine times, and I'm gonna say nine times, sometimes you're not gonna have that. You need to be able to speak out of it yourself.

I think for us, especially as, as, as black people, You already have so many other things that you start feeling like this is just one more thing. It's piling on at this point, right? It's a situation where, um, as I stated from my perspective, I was a star everywhere and my teammates thought that I was a up and coming star. And it was, it's happened at this job and another job, but at the other job, praise the Lord, I was more mature and I came out the fog. And so I know exactly what she was doing. Like, yeah, she hated me the whole time and I could give a damn. Like it was, I knew my numbers was this. I let the dot the data speak for itself. And I carried myself in I'm number one on the team. And I knew I was number one on the team, not just from a data perspective, but how the team was approaching me, how the team rallied around me. She didn't like that shine. And so therefore she and I bumped heads in that regard because she just couldn't understand. Why I couldn't humble myself built more, why I couldn't fall back more because I was trying to ascend and I didn't know how to balance that out to be aspirational and humble. Like that's, that's a very strange concoction, right? Like either I'm on the gas or I'm on the brakes, but I can't be on both or else we spend in a circle. And so, so that was a tough situation. When you, when, have you found yourself in a career position where You thought that it was time and the other person didn't want to, you weren't releasable or you were too much of a, of a, uh, uh, integral part for them to let you move on and grow.

Yeah. I mean, I, I, you know, look, we all have situations where everything is not going well. Um, And a lot of them, to be honest, was more personality stuff. It wasn't that I couldn't do the job. I didn't think I could. It was just more of the people that I was dealing with. Right? Because it can become a lot easier if you got somebody to support you. And, um, it can be, uh, horrible if you don't. Right. So that's really what it comes down to, but what we're going to do now, we're going to pick this back up in our next episode, because we got more to talk about when it comes to, you know, navigating corporate America. Um, but final thoughts, my brother.

Uh, I just think that, like you said, it's, it's something that you have to go back and check yourself and make sure that you are really basing this off something tangible, as opposed to something that's just made up, get out of your own head. And speak to people who either work, what you care about you, that you have trust in to make sure that you're just not making these things up and, and, and thinking crazy. Uh, but at the same point in time, um, you have to have realistic, uh, dynamics and goals, and you have to be willing to invest in what you want the ultimate outcome to be. And so that would be, you know, one of the things I think could help as you're navigating these corporate waters.

Absolutely, buddy. Come in, work hard, be ambitious, get your head right in terms of expectations. Okay. You're not going to get promoted in six months. Okay. I mean, if it does happen, I mean, that's great, but focus on really coming in, learning the job, learning your coworkers. Learning who your boss is building that brand and really making your mark in your work and how you do it and how you become an asset for the organization and then you start focusing on the next steps. So, listen. We want to thank everybody for checking out this episode, how to climb the corporate ladder. So I think it's now time for Tony's tidbit. Okay. So today's tidbit is by Robert green and the tidbit is create a ladder of values and priorities in your life. Reminding yourself of what really matters to you. And we kind of spoke of that today in today's episode.

Absolutely. servant leader, Robert Green, but, uh, and also we want to remind you to tune in to need to know what Nsenga don't miss this week's need to know segment by Dr. Nsenga Burton, black executive perspective podcast, where Dr. Burton dives into timely and crucial topics that shape our community and world. Tune in and gain unique insights and deepen your understanding of issues that matter. You don't want to miss it. Trust. Oh,

you don't want to miss it. Right. So again, hope you enjoyed our episode, climbing the corporate ladder, overcoming barriers and embracing, uh, empowerment.

Absolutely. And then we also want to challenge you and invite you to our call of action. Remember to incorporate L E S S less the L is for learn, educate yourself on racial nuances and cultural aspects. And make sure that you learn as much as you can, wherever you can

exactly. And then after you learn is E is empathy. Okay. Now you should be more empathetic to your friends and colleagues about the situations that they go through.

And then the first S is for share, share the things that you learned. Don't hide it. Divide it. Make sure that those around you. Understand what you've just gained and understood.

And then the final S is stop. We want to stop discrimination as it walks in our path. So if grandma says something at the Thanksgiving table, that's inappropriate. You say, grandma, we don't say that. We don't believe that you stop it right then. So if everybody can incorporate less L E S S we'll create a more understanding world and more important, we'll see the change that we want to see. Because less will become more. And

then also we want to remind you to tune into the episodes, but go on to the website, sign up for the newsletter, please leave your reviews and subscribe wherever you're listening to the podcast. And that'll help us scale and reach you where you are.

Exactly. And you can follow a black executive perspective podcast on all of our socials, Tik TOK, X, YouTube, Instagram, and Facebook at a black exec. For the co host with the most, my man, Chris P. Reed. All right, Noel Miller, who's pumping the muscles behind the glass and making this all work out. I'm Tony Tidbit. We talked about it. We love you. And guess what?

We're out.

A black executive perspective.