Steve Palmer [00:00:00]:

Alright. Here we are. Lawyer Talk podcast. They don't teach you that in law school. Sort of a they don't teach you that in law school. Sort of a breakdown. Sort of a let's talk about Luigi, and I'm not talking about Mario and Luigi. We're talking about the assassin.

Steve Palmer [00:00:12]:

I I couldn't you know, I I can't stress that enough. But, look, first, lawyer talk podcast.com is where you can check us out. We have a series here. They don't teach you at law school. Troy Henriksen working with me at my law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. Look. I I I am a lawyer. If you need help, give us a shout.

Steve Palmer [00:00:27]:

In Ohio, elsewhere, I consult all over the country at times. But the purpose of this is to sort of discuss stuff for folks who are, maybe in law school, thinking about law school, or just curious about the law. You don't have to be a law student to enjoy this because the idea is to take this legal nonsense that people talk about out in the real world and then maybe translate it and explain what's really going on, in a way that everybody can understand it, and this is a great platform to do it. So, Troy, we've been following this Luigi homicide case. Of course. And this is for those who haven't watched the news in the last 2 weeks, the the I mean, this is the guy who assassinated the president of UnitedHealthcare or the CEO of the UnitedHealthcare Insurance Company.

Troy Hendrickson [00:01:08]:

Allegedly?

Steve Palmer [00:01:09]:

I think it's yeah. Allegedly. I think he did, though. I think it's I think he's confessed to it. I think he is, on tape doing it. So look. The I represent folks charged with crimes, and if I only represented innocent people, I'd be broke because very you know? That's fair. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:01:23]:

So this idea on on Matlock where you only represent innocent people, it's it's nonsense. You just you couldn't earn a living doing what I'm doing. So then you would say, well, what do you do for these people? Well, sometimes the idea is if the government can't prove it, we go to court and we fight the case. Sometimes I've had clients who were wrongfully accused and just maybe got the wrong guy or didn't do what he was accused of doing. Sometimes, my client is guilty as the day is long, and my job is to get them through the system fairly and efficiently as we can and minimize the backside. What's the sentence? How much what's what's the outcome gonna be? So all those things come into play. And and so your criminal defense lawyer does a lot more than go to court like Matlock and only represent innocent people. In fact, I have good long term referral sources who will tell them, look, I'm they've told me this, and I I'm just like, because they say, look, there's this high publicity case.

Steve Palmer [00:02:13]:

I, you know, I know the guy, but, you know, I'm not gonna send somebody like that to you. You know, he's such a dirt ball. And I'm like, alright. Well, fair enough. I appreciate your your, your stance on it. I represent dirtballs sometimes.

Troy Hendrickson [00:02:25]:

I I feel like what I've noticed at least in the last year is maybe these people aren't innocent, but I do see a lot of potential overreach maybe. And that kinda pulls us into here where I was noticing on the indictment that came out, I believe, yesterday Mhmm. Was he was charged with first degree murder, with, like, regards to terrorism. And, like, I believe it's, like, the language used intended to intimidate or or worse, a civilian or government population.

Steve Palmer [00:02:50]:

Yeah. We'll get to that. Mhmm.

Troy Hendrickson [00:02:52]:

And that But

Steve Palmer [00:02:52]:

you're right. So overreach me so if look. A lot of times, there's a public figure who's accused of a crime, and he maybe I I just said I represent dirtballs. But for the most part, I like my clients. I like even the guys who have done the worst of the worst things. There's, like, there's redemption in almost everybody. There's redeeming qualities in almost everybody. There have been a few over the years I've represented that I thought were just genuinely bad people, and I would say only a few maybe 2 or 3 in 30 years who I just thought, this dude's a psychopath.

Steve Palmer [00:03:18]:

This dude's just a bad guy. I've had a I've had 2 or 3 of those, and, you know, I've represented thousands of people probably. And most people are good people. Most people are good folks who have had a problem. They maybe they've got a psychological or mental health problem. Maybe they got a narcotics or a drug problem or a substance problem of some sort, or maybe they just made a mistake. You know, it's like there's been one perfect in this world if if according to my religious beliefs, and and it ain't any of us. Right? So it's, most of us are not perfect.

Steve Palmer [00:03:48]:

Most of us have our flaws, and most of us have dumb stuff that we regret. And if you haven't, you're probably lying to yourself and you're lying to others. And, you know, that that may be some of the problems with the culture of these days is that it's so unforgiving. And, you know, this is a good transition into Luigi because, you know, I know Luigi. Luigi.

Troy Hendrickson [00:04:08]:

Yeah. Did you get

Steve Palmer [00:04:09]:

that wrong? Oh, Luigi. Luigi. So look. You know, you you said something here that was, I think, interesting, and that is there's overreach. And you probably experienced that upstairs working for me. We've got guys who are clearly guilty of something, but they're charged with more than what they did. Absolutely. We're we're gonna try a case in a local county at the in January where it's like that.

Steve Palmer [00:04:29]:

Guy did something, but come on. It's an overreach. So why is there an overreach? Sometimes there's an overreach because, in Ohio, particularly now, we have something called the victims rights amendment where victims of crime get a say so. Now that on its face sounds great, but sometimes the then the the tails wagging the dog a little bit where maybe that results in an overreach because you got people who are emotionally hurt, psychologically hurt. And they don't want, you know, they don't quite understand exactly the system and how it should work, and prosecutors end up having to bow to that a little bit more than than their discretion would normally permit. This is not to take away from victims of crime. I I have been a victim of crime at various times in my life, and, you know, that sucks. But it it is, the system is designed to give everybody a fair shake, even the guilty people.

Steve Palmer [00:05:19]:

And by that, I mean, punish people accordingly in the system, but not more than accordingly. Now I'm not suggesting for a second that this indictment for Luigi is an overreach. It in fact, it doesn't appear to be at all. I mean, I I I don't know New York law. I I know Ohio law on murder, and you have basically degrees of murder. And I'm I'm gonna sort of summarize this from a common law standpoint. Like, the worst kind of murder is typically one that you do on purpose. And by purpose, I mean, technically, it's it's a purposeful killing.

Steve Palmer [00:05:50]:

You you are acting with the kind of mental element where you wanted to. You set out to. You did it because you were doing it on purpose. I I always explain this this way. Anybody who's watched 2 kids argue, like, you I I used to argue with my brother, and we'd go to my parents, and I'd be like, yeah. And he did that on purpose. And somehow that makes it worse. Like, when when when you do it on purpose.

Steve Palmer [00:06:12]:

In other words, it wasn't an accident. It wasn't a mistake. It wasn't like a quick reckless act. It was like, you intended to hurt me. And that's what the most serious murders typically are. In Ohio, we might call that aggravated murder. And, you know, there are even degrees of aggravated murder depending upon how you do it, or what the and and that can alter what the punishment is. Something less than aggravated murder might be what we'll call hot blood.

Steve Palmer [00:06:38]:

This in law school, they would teach you this. This is something they do teach you in law school where you walk in on your wife or your girlfriend or your husband or your boyfriend in bed with another, and, you sort of flip out and you beat the crap out of them or maybe even you kill them. So that's a classic law school example of hot blood. And what it really means is there is enough provocation. You're not innocent, but you're provoked by circumstances that would reasonably provoke almost anybody, into this fit of rage. Below that, you have what we'll call sort of negligent murders or rec we'll start with actually reckless murders. So you're driving your car. You're texting.

Steve Palmer [00:07:18]:

Because you're texting, that's pretty reckless behavior. You get in a crash, and you kill somebody. That's reckless. You didn't do it on purpose. You weren't upset with some sort of hot blood rage when you did it. You just were acting sort of stupidly and recklessly. And below that, you have what I'll call sort of accidental murder, negligent murders, which are maybe where you, you're not doing anything wrong, but you just missed the red light. Or you fell asleep at the wheel because you didn't get enough sleep last night and somebody died, or you swung an ax and let go of it and it flew across and hit somebody in the head.

Steve Palmer [00:07:50]:

And you didn't do it on purpose, but you're pretty negligent because you didn't have gloves on or whatever the negligence theory would be. Those are sort of the levels. Now the the result on all those is the same if somebody dies. But how it's treated is, based on what the person did and what they were thinking when they did it. And here, in Luigi's case, we've got what appears to be, by all rights, a very purposeful execution.

Troy Hendrickson [00:08:17]:

Yeah. And that's very clear from the video. Like, he whoever did it intentionally, which I understand would we're we're leaning towards Luigi here.

Steve Palmer [00:08:25]:

So what's the evidence?

Troy Hendrickson [00:08:26]:

The I mean, as of right now, from what I've seen online is the evidence is he he was caught with money, fake IDs, and then a 3 d printed, silencer.

Steve Palmer [00:08:37]:

And he matches the person who's on video doing it? Yes.

Troy Hendrickson [00:08:40]:

Or at

Steve Palmer [00:08:40]:

least the ordinary person looking at this and saying, well, that sure his hell looks like Luigi. And then did Luigi confess?

Troy Hendrickson [00:08:46]:

Not to my not his to confess. Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:08:47]:

So he hasn't made any statements to confess. Alright. So the first thing's first. The government's gonna have to prove that Luigi did this. Yes. And the evidence will be what we're talking about. I don't know the case well enough. We we haven't seen what's called discovery, meaning what are the witness statements, who's saying what.

Steve Palmer [00:09:01]:

But what's the evidence of going against Luigi? We know that he looks a lot like the guy on video, so this is, like, your classic video. And by the way, it's really hard to commit a crime these days and not be on tape somewhere or on video somewhere.

Troy Hendrickson [00:09:12]:

Like like, even ring cameras, they can, like, track you from, like imagine, like, New York City where there's a camera on, like, every single corner.

Steve Palmer [00:09:18]:

Every door. Right? They can

Troy Hendrickson [00:09:19]:

track you the minute you from the minute you saw them all the way until you leave the city.

Steve Palmer [00:09:22]:

And then most people have mine's over there. Most people have what I call their digital DNA in their pocket, which is their cell phone. And I've worked on cases where literally, play by play by step by step through location analysis, your cell phone use, clients are basically or defendants or the accused are basically tracked almost down to the second. It's not like the old days where the only thing you had was like a tower analysis. We still have that, but now it's even it's even more detailed. So it's really difficult to get away with anything these days. Now it's a little aside, and they probably do teach you that in law school. But in in practicum, it's hard to commit a crime like this without being on Front Street literally.

Troy Hendrickson [00:10:06]:

Mhmm. But I think the more alarming thing in this indictment that I'm trying to get on was the the terrorism count. It's I I understand whoever killed him obviously did it intentionally. Like, I I totally agree with that. However, I just I just struggle to try and grasp what this was an act of terrorism, how New York, like, defines it. I just

Steve Palmer [00:10:26]:

Well, look. So you're on to something. We're gonna read the indictment. I've got it up. But you're on to something before I go there. You said how New York defines it. So you're starting to think like a lawyer. I like it because lawyer being a lawyer is a lot about learning a different language and understanding logic.

Steve Palmer [00:10:40]:

And this is why I get so upset about, I call it, wokeness or, undefining terms. And by undefining or redefining what terms mean, it matters. Language matters. And in law, it's like this logical scientific approach to abstract human behavior. And what you have to do is we have to have, we have a definition of a crime. And the idea is if the general assembly in Ohio or your legislative branch, if Congress and federal and the federal system is gonna say, you're not allowed to do something. And if you do that, it's a crime. That the law has to be defined in such a way that an ordinary person can understand it.

Steve Palmer [00:11:22]:

And not just an ordinary person, but, like, somebody it's gotta be somebody who's distracted doing 10 things at once should be able to understand it. You have to make it simple. Because if you can't make it simple, if you can't write a law that prohibits conduct and normal people can't read it and understand what they're allowed to do and what they're not allowed to do, well, then it's not fair. It violates due process. It's called vague. It's overly vague. And a reasonable person looking at is gonna say, I don't know what the hell this says, so I can't do it. Or I I so they then it's unconstitutional.

Steve Palmer [00:11:54]:

So the idea here is defining terrorism. Now we all operate day in and day out with some understanding of what we think terrorism is. And you may think, well, a terrorist is somebody who blew up the World Trade Center. A terrorist is somebody who crashed their plane into the Twin Towers. Those are terrorists. But in law, we have to go farther than that. Like, if you're gonna say, you're not allowed to commit terrorism, and if you do, that's a felony. What does that mean? You know? I don't know.

Steve Palmer [00:12:21]:

It all depends. Ironically worked on a case recently in Ohio where somebody was accused of a crime that included a definition of terrorism. So I'd never had it. And, like, how many terrorism cases are gonna knock on your door as a criminal defense lawyer? Very few over the years, but this one was. And and I I'm not gonna go into detail because I can't remember off the top of my head, but it was something like this. Terrorism means that you were this was a threat of terrorism, but it means that there was a threat that was designed to influence a governmental entity to do something or not do something, sort of like a, an ultimatum. So release this prisoner or else I'm gonna blow something up. Yep.

Steve Palmer [00:13:04]:

That would be terrorism or a terrorist threat in my case. And it turns out it didn't fit. Right? Now I don't know what I don't know how terrorism is defined in New York law, but it matters. Here's what the indictment says. Luigi is charged with murder in the second degree as a crime of terrorism in violation of penal law 125 dot or 0.251 and 490.25. The defendant in the County of New York on or about December 4th with intent to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policy of a unit of government by intimidation or coercion, and affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder, assassination, or kidnapping committed to specified offense of murder in the second degree. That defendant with the intent to looks like there might be a mistake. Especially if it's a murder of 2nd degree in that defendant with intent to the death of an cause the death of another or intent to the death of another person caused the death of Brian Thompson.

Steve Palmer [00:14:04]:

I think there's a typo in the indictment. That's ironic.

Troy Hendrickson [00:14:07]:

They're real people. You know, they're law clerks. You know, they're they're just trying to type above.

Steve Palmer [00:14:09]:

You know? This is one you get right. Right? The world's gonna see this one. Yeah. And, anyway, this is what this this sort of tracks with Ohio's understanding of terrorism. Now look, you can charge somebody with this, but I don't know that they can prove it. I you know, this means we deal in law and particularly criminal law all the time. The the the accused or the suspects or the defendant's intent matters, But it's not like a minority report with Tom Cruise where we can look at the future and understand what somebody's thinking or what they will do or what their intent really is. We don't we can't yet look into people's minds and say, oh, he did that on purpose.

Troy Hendrickson [00:14:48]:

I I just I think it's gonna be hard to show that the intent was to influence people because, like, how do you know for for all we know, he just wanted to kill the guy, and he didn't and he didn't think that he maybe he didn't think the world was gonna, like, know about or care about it.

Steve Palmer [00:15:00]:

Maybe he didn't know

Troy Hendrickson [00:15:01]:

there's gonna be a camera maybe.

Steve Palmer [00:15:02]:

There is one word I will throw at you in response to that. Manifesto.

Troy Hendrickson [00:15:08]:

Yeah. But does it say in there exactly, you know, like, I want the whole world to

Steve Palmer [00:15:11]:

know that. I don't know. Good questions.

Troy Hendrickson [00:15:12]:

I don't know.

Steve Palmer [00:15:13]:

Good questions. We have the same I understand the manifesto. Use language like the insurance industry is horrible, rotten, unfair. It doesn't work. It's broken. I I think at one point, Luigi even admitted that I don't know anything about it. This is beyond my expertise, ironically, but he knew enough apparently to kill somebody over. So look.

Steve Palmer [00:15:34]:

The evidence of this in Luigi's case is his manifesto. So how often do you get you like I just said, so we don't you don't often get a chance to look into somebody's mind and understand what they were thinking, what their intent was unless they write a manifesto and tell us. And this is where Luigi has provided some evidence that may amount to terrorism. Now, again, it's not what we think. It's not like a crashing planes into the Twin Towers. The definition only requires intimidation or coercion affect the conduct of a unit of government by murder, assassination, or kidnapping, you know, or the policy of a unit of government, or intimidate or coerce a civilian population. So, look, let's let's take this at its broadest on behalf of the people of New York. They're arguing that Luigi's intent was to change the government's approach at health care, and I'm gonna do that by killing somebody.

Steve Palmer [00:16:32]:

You know, the the problem is, let's see. Let me read this again. You know, the problem is he kills somebody. Was the intent to kill to kill? Was the intent to kill not to you know, it it's it's dicey, but that's gonna be their argument. I'm not seeing a quid pro quo, and that's the difference between this law and Ohio. It's like, I don't I don't see a quid pro quo where if you don't do this, I will do that. Or Mhmm. The the the act has already happened, and then we find the manifesto.

Steve Palmer [00:17:01]:

I don't know. So proving Luigi's intent will be probably, by and large, reliant upon the manifesto. I think that and that's a lesser crime, it seems like. That's murder in the second degree as a crime of terrorism. The lead charge here is murder in the first degree, which basically said now let's read it. The defendant in the county of New York, being more than 18 years old at the time of the commission of the crime with the intent to cause the death of another person, caused the death of Brian Thompson, and said person was killed in furtherance of an act of terrorism involving a violent act and acts dangerous to human life that were in violation of the criminal laws of the state and were intended to intimidate forces. So they've incorporated terrorism into this one as well. What's what's interesting here to me is I'm not seeing and then he's got a bunch of weapons crimes because you're not allowed to have a gun in New York.

Steve Palmer [00:17:54]:

Are you

Troy Hendrickson [00:17:54]:

not allowed to have a gun in New York?

Steve Palmer [00:17:56]:

You gotta have a license or something to have a gun, Stuff like that. Are you not allowed to use a gun to commit a crime?

Troy Hendrickson [00:18:03]:

I think the one in Pennsylvania is, like, having the 3 d printed silencer. I know there's, like, a law against that.

Steve Palmer [00:18:10]:

What I'm surprised about here, now here's here's the 3rd count is just murder in the second degree. The defendant in the county of New York on about December 4th with intent to cause the death of another person caused the death of Brian Thompson. So I don't know. Look. In Ohio, there this has all the trimmings of a case that would be aggravated murder, the most serious type of murder. You've got an obvious, purposeful, intentional we use the terms lying in wait where you're you're sort of ambushing somebody to kill them. I don't know if a similar charge exists in New York. If it doesn't, why they've only charged this as murder in the second degree and only made it murder in the first degree by terrorism.

Steve Palmer [00:18:50]:

I don't know New York law. I didn't know if that was intentional. If that was only because the law doesn't permit it, we could do some research and figure it out. Maybe if you're interested in us doing the research, let us know. Leave me a comment, and I'll I'll zero in on we can you can employ your lock working skills upstairs.

Troy Hendrickson [00:19:04]:

And I just I I I totally agree with the 3rd count here. It was just the first and second. That's where I just started. That's where my overreach bug started itching me, and I was like I was like, I don't know. I I

Steve Palmer [00:19:13]:

I just I look. I I don't have a problem necessarily with these charges, but I I might have a problem if he's not also charged with some sort of intentional murder that would be in the first degree because it seems sort of obvious. I I would be shocked. I will be shocked if we if New York does not have some crime that actually is the most serious on the levels of crimes in New York, that was committed here. Because, look, you you what isn't first degree murder if you don't do it intentionally or if you don't, if this isn't rather? You know, you you you plan to kill somebody. You actually do kill somebody. You ambush that individual. And this was an execution style murder.

Steve Palmer [00:19:52]:

And I people ask me all the time questions like this. Would I represent this guy? Yeah. I would. I absolutely would. Do I think that this is one of the most horrible crimes we've ever seen? Yes. I do. I absolutely do. I I find it, you know, socially intriguing that people give this guy a pass because he happened to execute somebody in an industry that they don't like, But it's still an execution.

Steve Palmer [00:20:17]:

A father is still dead. A husband is still dead. A human life was taken. This is what criminal laws are designed to deal with. There is no excuse for this type of execution in our society, and I still would represent them. So, like, go to sleep at night with that one, folks.

Troy Hendrickson [00:20:34]:

Yeah. I mean, I would too. I I still just gonna keep hammering in on this. I just think the the word terrorism gets overused, and I just don't think this was an applicable situation where it should be done. And I we're watering down the word, and it's losing value.

Steve Palmer [00:20:50]:

Well, look. Terrorism means you're intending to coerce a civilian population, influence the policies of a unit of government by intimidation or coercion, and affect the conduct of a unit government of a unit of government by murder, assassination, or kidnapping. So look, it fits the definition on some level. Now you don't like it because your notion of terrorism is something different. I'll give you another perfect example, and you're working on a case with me upstairs. We have a client charged with kidnapping. And I think your first reaction was, well, where's the kidnapping?

Troy Hendrickson [00:21:22]:

Yeah.

Steve Palmer [00:21:23]:

I have and this I had the first reaction. The first kidnapping case I had, I expected. Alright. So somebody threw a a pillowcase over somebody's head, tied their hands behind their back, and took them across state lines and asked for ransom. Actually, I had that case. But then I get lots of kidnapping cases where it's a rape. I'm like, well, hold on. It's a rape, not a kidnapping.

Steve Palmer [00:21:44]:

The kidnapping comes into play by definition. Again, you gotta look at the definitions of the terms. If I, through force or threat of force, prevent somebody from moving or leaving, that can be kidnapping. It can also be abduction. What's abduction? Well, it's almost kidnapping. You know? It's like the all the terms matter. And it what are one of the things that you have to do when you become a lawyer is let go of our old world, not completely because you still have to translate. But you gotta let go of that and understand that you have to enter this new world where everything has its own definition and everything has its own meaning.

Steve Palmer [00:22:21]:

And, every now and then, you run into a situation where the law says, well, this has the common meaning that we all understand. You're like, alright. I know what that is then. But you really don't because everybody's got a little bit different understanding. We love definitions in law because it gives us something concrete that we can build upon, rely upon, and understand. And just because it's a term that we use in in our civilian lives a little bit differently, like terrorism, doesn't mean that it can't be charged as a crime for conduct that you don't necessarily foresee in your head when you hear the term.

Troy Hendrickson [00:22:55]:

When I was thinking kidnapping, I was thinking old school when Will Ferrell's driving me around

Steve Palmer [00:23:00]:

Yeah. They know. In

Troy Hendrickson [00:23:00]:

the van.

Steve Palmer [00:23:01]:

You're my boy, Blue. Yeah. That's right. So look. That's that's the kidnapping we all think of, but, you know, it doesn't have to be that. That might be the worst form of kidnapping. Not that movie, but, you know, taking somebody, moving them across state lines or whatever, you know, that becomes a kidnapping offense in its own right. But in Ohio, for you can you can commit kidnapping without ever taking anybody anywhere.

Steve Palmer [00:23:26]:

If I just say, if you move anywhere, if you leave this room, I'm going to shoot you, and I mean it, and I'm displaying a show of force with a firearm or something else, that could be kidnapping. Alright. Well, look, there's probably lots more we're gonna do on the Luigi case as this thing unfolds. I like your question. I was like, is this is this terrorism? Do you guys think it's terrorism? Leave us a comment. I'll be happy to kick this around some more, and then we're gonna do some additional research on exactly what is first degree murder other than a terrorism type of act associated with murder in New York. I've got a buddy up there, maybe a prosecutor buddy I I know I know from long ago. I can probably get him and, get some answers.

Steve Palmer [00:24:02]:

But, this is lawyer talk podcast. They don't teach you that in law school. We love it when you interact with that, interact with us. You can do that in the comments of our social media sites. You can go to lawyer talk podcast.com. There's a place you can leave us a question. Send us a topic. We'll be happy to cover it.

Steve Palmer [00:24:16]:

You wanna be a guest on the show? We do that periodically. Go ahead and send us a note, and we'll see if we can get something scheduled. If it if you got the chops and it's worthy of discussion, I look. I I harbor no prejudice. I I talked to almost everybody. Whether we can work it into an episode, that's different story, but we'll do our best. Until then, Lawyer Talk podcast off the record on the air. Till next time.