Lauryn: [00:00:00] all right, Jill, well, welcome to the podcast. So when I was doing research on you and by research, I usually mean about like three minutes of like scanning who the heck did I say? Yes. Cause like all requests for interviews go through me.

Like I don't have a VA. Not that fancy yet, because I'm just really picky about, like, I want to have good conversations

and a lot of people just seem like they're going to be boring. So I said yes, and then, like, usually about five minutes before the interview, I'm like, okay, who did I say yes to? So Jill, you are a, I saw, among many things, a happiness

Jill: Hmm.

Lauryn: Okay, how did you get to that point? And what is that?

Jill: Yeah, what is that? Is there even such a thing? Can you become a scientist who's an expert in happiness? And the answer is yes. I think anyone who gets in my line of work, so it, the field is called positive [00:01:00] psychology, which is the

Lauryn: Do you consider yourself a positive person?

Jill: Um, yeah, yes,

Lauryn: I kind of assumed, like, I don't think I ever would have entered positive psychology. I would have, like, self selected out of that. I'd have been like, that's not a strength of mine.

Jill: Well, we, oh, we can dive into it because I'm going to, I'm going to get you to come over to the side. But I think part of the reason why a lot of people, including myself, like you, you end up studying and taking a deep dive sometimes in what you need. Right? So instead of just saying like, Oh, I'm so happy.

I'm so happy. Let me like, I think you really become curious about what you want to learn. Um, so I ended up going down that road because, um, You know, in my journey, my career, the last 10 years, um, I've had a business and I do leadership development for large organizations, fortune 100 companies. And I just coming back and I teach a lot of different things to my clients on how to create the best culture and be the best leaders.

But I just kept stumbling upon. some research from other like leadership people on the power of, you know, um, [00:02:00] positive like leadership and how creating like, you know, fun and happiness in the workday is a key to achieving results. And I'm like, really? Cause I, I'm the one who cracks the whip. I am the, I was the person, I mean, cause I used to be a United States Marine and you can ask my teenage daughters.

They're like, yeah. Mom, you are the crack, the whip, like we're not having fun, we're getting stuff done. And I'm like, wait a second, can you really be like positive and having fun and performing at the best? Like I gotta, I gotta like understand this. So that's what kind of led me on my journey to study this is let me really understand the science.

Like, you know, do you, do you have to decide to be. You know, the drill sergeant cracking the whip to get results, or are you like the nice fluffy person that lets everyone slack off and is there, is there these two things that come together? So

Lauryn: I was gonna say, it kind of feels like that, those are your options. So, like, positive leadership is that, Basically a leader that inspires [00:03:00] and leads from a place of positivity.

Jill: yeah, I mean, really that is absolutely yes. And just a quick confirming yes leads from a positive place. But what I have learned. And this is now what I teach is that you don't have to choice. You don't have to choose between these two extreme options, like am I going to be a jerk and drive results or am I going to be nice and we're going to have a team of happy losers?

It's just not. If you think that you have to choose between those, you're probably going to really struggle as a leader. So this is having the mindset that. I am here. I care enough about my people and I believe enough in my people that I know they can achieve their potential and they can perform at a level that is the highest.

And because I care so much and I believe in them, I am not going to accept anything but them getting to that level. So it's really this belief. Like I believe that you can [00:04:00] perform at the highest level and meet the high expectations and achieve this crazy goal that you've set. And I'm going to do all the things that I can because I care about you.

I'm going to coach you. I'm going to guide you. I'm going to give you feedback because I believe in your potential. So that's where you can both like, Yeah. Set very high expectations, but really like lead with positivity or if you really want to get a little fluffy, and I will say this in front of audiences, I talk on stages across the world.

You can also lead with love, you know, and that's what needs to be in your heart. You need to like go into your heart and go, why, what are you really trying to do for this person? You know? And so you can, you can have, you can have both high standards lead with love. And when you do, that's where you get extraordinary results.

Lauryn: So is the notion that, cause I feel like we as a society for years, you know, are you a glass half full or glass half empty kind of person?

Um, and like, we like to categorize people as either optimists or pessimists. And [00:05:00] I've always said. I'm definitely not an optimist, but I'm not a pessimist. I, I feel like I've always just like kind of bowed out of that. Um, I've gone like, well. Did you just drink half the glass? I would then say it's now half empty. If you took an empty glass and filled it up from a sink, but only filled it halfway, I would say it's half full. So I've kind of always identified as like a pragmatist. But like, what's your opinion on this concept of there are optimistic people and there are pessimistic people.

Is this like true when we look at the research or science?

Jill: Yeah, yeah. Um, I think when we have those two, those two extremes, what we think an optimist is, is that these are people who are Pollyanna. These are the people that can't see the reality. They're just the people that are happyology, like everything's going to be okay. And that drives me freaking crazy.

Lauryn: those people do exist. I mean, maybe they don't inside their own [00:06:00] head, but

like, I have met a couple of them. That's just like, will you just have a shit day for once, please? It's okay. It kind of feels good to vent.

Jill: Yeah. Like, so, so if we look at the research, what does the research say? And so I'm going to cite Dr. Marty Seligman is really the father of positive psychology. So he is, I mean, he is the expert in this and he like literally did his research on pessimism and then what he wrote a book called learned optimism.

And so he is one of my mentors. He, I went to school at, you know, at UPenn where he still is. And so I just want to share with you, like, I mean, Sometimes we just think, what is your opinion? But let's really look at the research. And that's where I'm kind of a geek at heart because I sometimes just kind of have my knee jerk reaction, but then I want to look at like, okay, so what is, what is true, what is right.

And let me be open to changing my point of view. So, um, you know, being overly. Pessimistic. Pessimistic is usually defined as, um, as when something happens, right? People [00:07:00] just say like, the sky is falling, it's never going to work, so we shouldn't even try. And obviously that mindset every time you encounter adversity is not very good.

Because if you're saying like, the sky is falling and it's never going to change and we're never going to overcome it, what does that do? It makes you stop trying, right? So, so, so being. And that's really the way the literature defines pessimism is, you know, it's, it's never going to change. It's going to ruin everything.

So learned optimism is not happyology. It is not like, Oh, everything's going to be okay. We're going to pretend like there's no challenges. Like that's just stupid. Um, but optimism is both realism. Like what is the challenge that we're facing? Like it today really sucks because we have a huge setback and let's just take a moment and acknowledge that this really sucks.

So you can do that as an, as someone who's. can be optimistic, but then you have to just take that next step and say, okay, this hurdle was out of left field. It really [00:08:00] sucks. I believe that we can figure out a way to overcome it. It's not going to be easy. It's not going to be fun, but I believe that we can.

We overcome this. We can get past it. So let's now start thinking about how we can overcome it. So that's where that, um, optimism is very, very important for business success because when people are running into challenges, it really gets into

Lauryn: even, I can't even imagine. I, I've never heard somebody actually explain what optimism versus pessimism

Jill: Mm hmm.

Lauryn: there are pessimists, like I've also met pessimistic. people that are just like, damn, you have thrown the towel in. Like, it's just like, well, what are you going to do? Life sucks, then you die.

Jill: Yeah. And then, and then think about.

Lauryn: being in a leadership role.

Jill: Yeah. And then think about how happy that person is, like in their life in general, their life, like outside of work, really like [00:09:00] sometimes when people are pessimists, they don't have agency. And what I mean by agency is they don't feel like they have control over their life.

They're just victims. Life sucks. There's nothing I can do about it. Right. And that's kind of sad. Like, you know, we, we have more power than we think. And I, you know, that. Learning how to be optimistic just, you know, it's a skill that you can learn and some people are more naturally pessimistic and for anyone who thinks like I'm a pessimist, oh, like, am I doomed?

Um, the way that our

Lauryn: Jill says no.

Jill: yeah, no, it's not, you're not. You can learn and, and, and in, in one way, it's not your fault because our many times our brain is wired to be more, more motivated by risk and fear than it is, you know, the things that you can have. Um, but there's ways that we can train our brain to like amplify the potential of, you know, what could be instead of just letting our, you know, so for anyone who.

Maybe is a little bit more of like, maybe I'm more, [00:10:00] um, you know, pessimistic, you know, there's things we can do to literally like when you start doing the work to move into this, like learned optimism. I mean, it's called learn optimism for a reason because you can learn how to do it. But when you start trying to do that, you, you start.

Literally rewiring your brain. I miss the crazy thing about, oh my gosh, like our brains and neurology and plasticity. When you start kind of doing these little workouts in your brain to be more optimistic, it's kind of like a muscle, you know, the first time you try to like lift really heavy weights, cause you have like, would be like biceps at like, it's like, oh my God, it's so hard.

And it's so sore. Like, you know, but the more you keep doing it, you, you can, you can work out that part of your brain and then it gets, as it gets stronger, it becomes easier. So yes, there's hope.

Lauryn: can we talk about some of these?

Like, how do you become? And honestly, I mean, where do worriers fall into this? Like, because I feel like in the past, you know, where I've been like, oh, I'm not, I would say like, oh, no, I'm not an optimistic person is because I thought, Like I. [00:11:00] Um, I'm not analytical, but like, I'm definitely like, all right, these are the facts.

This is what is, and that really just doesn't seem like it plays into whether you are optimistic or pessimistic. It's just kind of your belief that whatever your situation is, you can improve upon it

Jill: You can improve upon it. Yeah. You know, and this, this leads into like, you know, you talk about a practical strategy, like this, we're going to go deep here. I hope you're, it's okay that we're going to go deep, you know, psychology, right? Um, and that is, it's, it's what is the voice inside of our head telling us?

So, so the pessimists are the ones saying like, Uh, this is never going to work. I'm never going to be able to do this. I can't overcome this. They're saying things like that. And what you tell yourself consistently becomes reality. If you think you can, or if you think you can't, you're going to be right either way.

So this is [00:12:00] so important for, for us to learn the skill, which is. learning how to take charge of what we tell ourself and the easiest strategy. Cause I mean, we could spend four hours getting really into this and I know we don't have that much time, but I'm going to just give a really simple strategy. So when you catch yourself.

When you catch yourself saying any type of pessimistic thoughts, especially about you or your situation, the easiest tactic, and I got this from Dr. Karen Rivek at UPenn. She's the one who taught me this and it was like so simple. I'm like, ah, this is gold. Um, when you catch yourself saying that, imagine That your best friend or someone you really care about just said whatever you're saying to yourself out loud.

Think of it as your child. I think of, I always think of like, what if my teenage daughter is saying this, which is like, I'm never going to be able to do this. Everything is ruined and the sky is falling. If what would you say to that loved one? What would you say to that friend?

Lauryn: Are they saying it to you about [00:13:00] you or are they saying it about themselves?

Jill: If they're saying it about themselves.

Lauryn: Oh, well, I mean, I feel like you got to be like, of course not

Jill: Well, but what would you say, like, genuinely to a friend? You would say, like, if they go, like, everything is ruined. I'm never going to be able to do it. You would, I think you, you would tell them truth and say, this is really hard. I know this really sucks. I'm here for you. Right. Let's acknowledge it. But then you're going to say, you know, get up and try again.

Like it's. It's you, you, you made a mistake, you know, you learn from it. Like you're going to tell them things like you are, you can do this. You just have to keep trying. Like, don't let this hold you back. Right. So usually the natural thing that we're going to want to tell, like this loved one is, is the same thing we should be telling to ourselves.

So it's a really easy way to think about how to change. Yeah. That voice in your head to take control of the self talk and what Marty Seligman, you know, teaches is you need to almost argue with yourself, but bring in the facts back to what you said. The facts like this went wrong, it [00:14:00] ruined everything.

I'm never going to be able to do it like that is, that is ridiculous. That's not a fact. This one bad thing happened. It's a setback, but the reality is it's one thing. It's not ruining everything. I have an ability to move forward. It's a, you almost need a. Do this little like exercise in your head where you're you're you're using facts to argue with yourself to say that I You know, I can do these things and I have a choice.

It's, this is isolated. It's a one time thing. It's not ruining everything. And I have the ability to control what I do next. So if you can tell yourself that, then you can get, you can shift from being, you know, pessimistic to optimistic. And the reason why this is so important is whatever you're thinking in your head.

Impacts your actions and your actions impact your results. And these are things in business and in life. So it's such an important skill. Um, and you know, I, there are people that are much [00:15:00] smarter than me in terms of like talking about your internal voice. There's Ethan cross who wrote a book called chatter.

Like, I mean, I read that and I'm like, do like, so that's a really great resource for people to learn. And he gives some really great strategies, you know, there, but. Um, yeah. Like, I mean, it's, it's just so important that we can believe that we can take control and we can take action. And if you really believe that and tell yourself that, then you're gonna be off to the races and you're gonna be resilient.

Lauryn: Okay. So you, it's kind of in steps towards becoming that optimistic. or positive leadership. Step one, kind of looking at where you at personally, like how are you talking to yourself? And I would imagine that tackling that first is most like more important. Um, and so you're going to do this through. Arguing with yourself. Um,

Jill: People are going to think they're crazy.

Lauryn: so what's really funny is I don't know if there's something wrong with me, there [00:16:00] definitely is multiple, but like when you were saying, like, what would you say if your friend said, like, the thoughts that you were saying? Like, it's almost like reverse psychology. Um, where when my brain went to, like, you know, if I'm like, oh my god, you're such a piece of crap, you are an absolute imposter, you can't do anything. If, if that was my thought, and then like, in my, when you said that I was like, picturing a friend saying that to me, and I'd be like, The hell is wrong with like, so, I think you could also reverse psychology, of like, what would you say if somebody was saying those thoughts to you, and you'd be like,

Jill: Oh my gosh. Maybe that would be it. Like, yeah, you're right. You are a loser. You're never going to be able to do it. Right.

Lauryn: And I'd be like, wait, wait, I didn't explode everything here. Okay, like I do have some things, so like, if maybe, both different mental exercises. So, okay, so you start there. So now, now let's kind of branch into how does this show up in leadership? And I would imagine that this [00:17:00] is a lot easier done when you are hitting all of your goals and KPIs in clinic and it's just like,

Jill: Happy.

Lauryn: our goals where you get a, you get a bonus and you get a bonus and like, I'm proud of you. So I'm assuming that's easier. So like when this really needs to show up as often when we're not hitting. those goals and employees are not living to their potential and you kind of just want to fire everyone and burn it down.

Jill: What, what do you do there? Ah,

Lauryn: do you do there?

Jill: Well, I, I think you start with, you got to get your own head on straight and, and find that optimism. Like it, again, it's acknowledging like where we are right now is not to goal and this is not good, but then you've got to imagine, like, what is the future That you want to get to, like, [00:18:00] what would it look like if you achieved the goal or if you overcame this?

So it, the most important thing is you got to start by leading yourself. I, I often say sometimes the hardest person to lead is to lead yourself. And if you can't lead yourself, you're going to have a hard time leading your team. So you've got to acknowledge, you know, the challenges that you have and then become that learned optimism.

Like, okay. I have to believe that myself and my team, that we can overcome these challenges and we can accomplish the goals. It's not going to be easy, but we can get there. And when you get to that place inside, and then you can go to your team and start leading them. But imagine if a leader is just like having a pity party, their, their lip is hanging out and they feel like, There's no way we're going to be able to do this.

We're all a bunch of losers. And that is not leadership. Leadership is about motivating and inspiring people to do, um, the things that are going to lead to goal accomplishment. Right. So how do you

Lauryn: exhausting though. [00:19:00] It's

Jill: you think it's exhausting? Yeah,

Lauryn: So like, yeah, and this is where like maybe I need to flex the muscle more, but like Yeah, I do think that, so like, I can come in and give like, a keynote, and like, I can go to somebody else's team that I've never talked to before and be like, Hey, you guys!

Yay! Hooray! Rah! This is great! But then like, I don't know, six months later, I'm looking at the same people on my team. And I'm like, fuck, I have to give you another inspirational talk. I gave you one last quarter.

Jill: that should have lasted

Lauryn: Yeah.

it really showed up.

Jill: Okay. Um,

Lauryn: unpack this.

Jill: of all, if you're a leader, It's not about you. It's about them. Like, to be a great leader, I strongly believe in the concept of servant leadership. As you get to, as you get up each day and you go to work, [00:20:00] I mean, you got to realize that The way we achieve results is not by what you do.

It's if the team is successful, then you're successful. So your whole job is not to drive results as a leader. Your job is to lead the people who are driving results, right? So your job is to, how do you best serve your people so that they can succeed and win? So first thing is like, we need to stop thinking about like, what do I want to do?

Like, I don't want to like give a pep talk. Well, you know what? It's not about you. You're in a leadership position. You got to do what's needed to make the team successful. Um, so that's, that's one thing. Um, and then, and there's, there's a lot of different. Leadership styles, we've got to use and flex in order to be effective in the right situation.

So like Daniel Goleman, the father of emotional intelligence, you know, he did a lot of writing on this and saying like, you know, we have to be really looking like leader, our leadership style shouldn't be a function of [00:21:00] our personality. It should be a strategic choice based on what the team and the business needs.

So I might say, you know what? We had a little bit of a setback. I am not a woo woo girl, and this is really hard, but what the team needs for me is visionary leadership. And I need to go and say, Hey guys, this is what we're seeking to achieve. Here's why it really matters. We've got, you know, an obstacle in our way.

And But, you know, we're going to be able to get there, right? So, you know, even if you don't feel like it, well, if you, if you really only care about doing what you want to do, then I'd say like, just don't be a leader, be an individual contributor. So servant leadership, I would say number one. And then, you know, two is, you know, one of the ways.

To get your team fired up to, to achieve goals and to overcome challenges is involve them in the problem solving. So Neil Doshi, Lindsay McGregor wrote that wrote this book that I love called prime to perform the science of total motivation. And one of the strategies they have in their book is throw the challenge at your team, let them.

Come up [00:22:00] with ways they're going to achieve it and that is the way to get them fired up. So if you, if you, if there's a huge challenge, don't, don't just go to your team and say we can do it. Like don't do like the, the, the, the motivation that's like, that doesn't work, which is just like a, like a bunch of like woo woo rainbows and butterflies.

Like it's got to be substantial, you know? So go to the team and say, we've got a huge challenge ahead of us, but here is what we're trying to achieve, why it matters. I would. Let's talk about the meaning and say, I need all of us to come up with the solution on what we're going to do to overcome it. When you involve people in problem solving, you're going to light them up and then they're going to take ownership for the solutions instead of being used.

So like sometimes we just, you know, instead of being the director style, like. Do this, do this, do this because we're behind goal. Sometimes that's what we want to do is like, we just need to like start giving more orders and yell at people more because they're not reaching the goal. No, no, no, no. The reason is they're not [00:23:00] invested, engaged.

They, they need to take ownership for their actions. So we need to let them come up with a solution. So there's, you know, these. These different strategies. But when you do that, then, then they're actually going to care about, be motivated and actually follow through on the plans because you empower them to come up with, or be part of the solution.

Lauryn: Is this when you talk about the difference between managing and coaching?

Jill: Yeah. Yes, exactly. I mean, managing is, I mean, we, we do have to manage like KPIs and, you know, all these things. There's things that have to be managed, but you know, what is coaching? I mean, if you look at the definition of coaching by the international coaching federation, it's um, oh my gosh, now I'm blanking on the actual definition.

Google it for me. Someone Google it for me. Um, but it's. what is it? She's looking it up. Thank you so much. It's not. Hmm.

Lauryn: Coaching is a process where a coach helps a client achieve a [00:24:00] goal by providing guidance and training. Was that not the definition you

Jill: It's not probably the ICF one, but let, let me just, even though I don't know the word per word, but I'm just going to tell you like what I know in my heart. So coaching isn't telling people what to do and giving them direction. The International Coaching Federation, the most widely respected like body that.

That certifies coaches, they say it's a, it's a collaborative process where we, we help people understand what are their goals. And then we hold space so that they can create the path to achieve it. So we have to believe this is a key one

Lauryn: Okay, I found another definition

Jill: Okay. Okay. I'm going to Google it on

Lauryn: All right, ICF defines coaching as partnering with clients

in a thought provoking and creative process that inspires them to maximize their personal and professional potential.

Jill: Yes, that is it. That that is the one that I usually have my slides and I have this work. So let's just unpack that partnering with [00:25:00] individuals. So now if you're

Lauryn: not just telling someone what to do.

Jill: not telling them what to do, you have to, you have to say, here's what our team needs to achieve to make the biggest impact in our company.

Right. Here's what the team needs to achieve. Now, you know, you need to help people define like what let's partner with them so that they can, they can come up with how they're going to bring the most impact to the company. And then, you know, we're going to help them maximize their potential and and that is by asking questions.

Getting them to answer. So like, sometimes we need to stop doing so much talking. Right. So I love, I love the I grow model of coaching. So a real quick one is that you ask questions and I grow as an acronym that comes originally from Tim Galloway, the famous tennis coach, but, um, what Tim Galloway, you know, teaches is he goes, there's so I, I love sometimes sports analogies and I think they're overused, but in this one, I love it.

So like, you know, we're trying to help our people [00:26:00] perform at their best. Right. That's what we're trying to do as leaders. Like, like, can you just perform better? Like, oh my gosh, I, we get so frustrated. So Tim Galloway was talking about, um, what he discovered as a professional tennis coach is he discovered that there's what he calls the outer game and the inner game.

The outer game is giving people advice on like, you know, how to put more top spin on your, you know, on your. Yeah. on your serve or how, when to run

Lauryn: thingy.

Jill: Yeah. Do like all the like technical skills, right? Like, like how to do the job better, the technical skills. But he said, then there's the other side, which is the inner game.

And there's obstacles, like maybe anxiety, self doubt, or maybe just not given a shit because people don't care. Like we got to care about the. inner game. Like how do we help people be more confident, more invested? And you, you can unlock all that with the skill of coaching. And anyone can Google like I grow, but I grow stands for, you know, it's, it, it's just a five step step process, or [00:27:00] it's a conversation roadmap to ask person like what let's identify the goal that we're going to have a conversation on.

So we got to align with the goal. What is one of your goals? That you have at our company to bring the biggest impact and to be the most successful. So you have them identify the goal. And then, so that's the, you know, identifies the topic G is the goal. So let's talk about what is the topic you want to talk about.

Let's talk about what your goal is. What is your goal? Instead of saying, here's what your goal is, right? What is your goal? It's pretty, pretty powerful when you ask them, what is, what do you want to achieve here? Then, um, the R is what is the reality right now? So here's like, I'm not meeting my goal. I'm not hitting my KPIs.

I want to be. So now in the mind of your coachee, they've got this gap between where they are now and where they want to be. And they're the ones who are, have articulated it. So now they've talked about where are they now, reality, that's R is reality. Then O is options. And you ask them, what are different things?

Ideas or ways that you can move from where you are now, [00:28:00] not hitting your KPIs and not being on track to achieve the goal, to being able to. Achieve your goal or overachieve your goal. So you ask for options. So you're you're pulling it out of them This is where as leaders we sometimes want to just go into like telling them what to do Let me tell you how to be successful But just say I want you to really think about this and I want you to come up with what?

The path that you feel confidence gonna get to your goal and it's so hard as leaders because we'd have to zip it

Lauryn: Yeah,

Jill: Hmm. And then, and then they come up with a lot of options. And at this point you can even let 'em know like, Hey, do you wanna take a day to think about it? And come back to

Lauryn: that's what you say. If they're coming up with bad options, right?

Jill: if they're, or if, if they're say, I don't know, just tell me what to do.

And then you tell the person. I would say, Lauren, I hired you for a reason. You're smart, you're capable. I have faith that you're gonna be able to come up. Really great strategies to achieve your goal, but take some time to think about it. Feel free to use resources. Is there anyone else on the team that's really great at this?

Talk to them. [00:29:00] I just, I want, I really want you to put some thought into this and let's come back and I want to see what you come up with. and then they'll come back and now it's their plan. Right? That they came up with. Um, so that's the options phase and then you get to the final thing, which is what will you do?

The W is will. So based on everything, these are options of what you could do. What will you do? And then that's where they commit and say, as your coach, as your leader, Let's follow up in a week and, and let's talk about what you've done, right? Um, and then you hold them accountable for what they will do.

so that is what coaching is. Coaching is appropriate when people have enough competence and knowledge of what to do. Now that's different. If someone's new on the job on day two and you try to do it. I grow coaching like that's stupid. Like they don't even know what to do. But when they've got enough time and you're really, they're not really invested or motivated, like just using that coaching, um, it just really gets them invested [00:30:00] and, and gets them more motivated to do the work.

Lauryn: So one of the most common things that I know anybody listening will say is just like, this sounds time consuming.

Jill: It does. Yes,

Lauryn: just sounds energetically a little draining, and it's just easier. For me, like, it's fine. This works fine with my employees. They want me to tell them what to do, and I say, Here's your problem.

Here's how you respond to the email. Okay? Here's how you handle this problem. Here's how you handle this problem. So, like, for someone who's really stuck in that, Like, because I get it, you know, this is the teach Amanda Fish right? Like, you are Teaching someone how to become solution oriented and long term,

they're going to be more fulfilled. They're going to, because they are, you know, you're going to retain them longer [00:31:00] and they're going to be a much higher productive and quality employee. So like, we get this long term. How do you get someone over that like hurdle of just like, it's, it's just easier. It's

just easy.

hard versus hard, easy.

Jill: So this is where I say, it's, is it, it's not about you as a leader. You got to do the hard thing. You got to do the right thing, the hard thing, because when you take time to do that, you're going to have, don't just think of like, what are the results today? I need to be, as a leader, you've got to be more strategic.

I need to do the right things that are going to lead to long term success, right? And so I would say it's not about you, it's about them. What are the leadership actions that are the best leadership actions for this employee and for the business long term? Now there's a caveat. Like if there is an emergency, like the biggest client is unhappy and we're going to lose them.

You know, and, and I mean, the research supports this, like when there's an emergency or a [00:32:00] safety issue, then you have to go into drill sergeant mode and you have to let you know, you got to let your team know, like, you know what, right now I just need to give direction and I need, and here's why, because we have an emergency and this is really important.

So today, we just have to operate this way to get through this crisis, right? So if there's a reason for it, Then you can get into that directive mode where you can just be kind of giving orders, but we got to think of long term success. And let's go back to just where you started. And you said, Jill, you're a happy, you're a happy scientist.

if your people are not happy in their job, they're not going to perform as well. And that is really what we're trying to do. And if you become a great coach and you do it this way, you're, you're really demonstrating to the person you're, you're demonstrating respect. I mean, if I go to you, Lauren, and say like, okay, let's spend some time, right.

And I'm coaching you. You're going to feel like, wow, like You, you, you care about my opinion. You think I can come up with solutions. Wow. Like now I [00:33:00] feel like, God, I feel important. I feel smart. I feel valued. Um, wow. And then, and then I'm going to, my self efficacy, my self confidence goes up. The, when you spend your time coaching, these are the, these are the moments where it's the best moments as a leader, because that person makes, maybe works for you for five years, but goes on and does something else.

And they, they're going to keep in touch with you for the next, you know, 50 years, because they're going to be like, you are the best leader. You like really helped me grow. So it's just worth it. It's the right way to lead all the evidence and like even developmental psychology. Like, you know, think of like things as a, as a spectrum when people just first get started, like you need to give them direction.

Like, well, here's how you respond. Here's an appropriate response. You know, like you got to give them direction as they're getting started, but once they know the why of the company and they have been trained on the skills you need to pull back. and go into coaching mode. And that will help them perform better, be more invested, and happier.

And that is the key to success. If people are disgruntled, you know, like, what are they going to do when you're [00:34:00] not watching and you're on vacation for a week? Right. Yeah.

Lauryn: Can, do you really believe that a hundred percent of people when coached like this can handle it from an employee perspective? Cause like I picture a good amount of, you know, I'm just thinking about like a front desk person that's like, I just. I thought I was hired to answer the phones and schedule people and like, do this. Like, I wasn't looking to become management CEO, this or that, although I'm sure they want more money, but like, um, gotta be a good percentage of people who kind of just opt out when you start to coach.

Jill: And, um, I would say just in general, can everyone Become a great employee. Is everything going to work out? No. Like sometimes some employees you're going to set [00:35:00] clear expectations. You're going to onboard them, train them. You're going to give them your very best leadership styles and they just don't care or they just aren't going to perform that well.

And when that happens, We need to do the hard thing and you need to let them go because they're not good for the business. And I would say too, even when you're hiring for people, like let's say someone is, is going to be working the front desk. It doesn't pay that well. Still, when you do your hiring, just say, here's what we're looking for.

Here's what the job description is, but here is our culture. I want people to understand the mission of our company, what we're trying to do. everyone needs to grow and develop in every role. I believe in, um, you know, servant leadership and really helping people, you know, um, maximize their potential in anything.

Like, so you just gotta kind of like let them know when they come in, like, this is going to be a job where I'm going to expect you just, you know, not, I, I'm not hiring you just for your hands and your feet to do things. I'm hiring you for your brain. And, [00:36:00] um, and I'm going to challenge you to, to solve problems on your own.

And is that a job that you want, because I don't want people just coming in and doing the bare minimum because that's not our culture and you're not going to be happy here. So just, just make sure you're kind of filtering, not for like people that can just answer the phone, but that people really, they hear that.

And they're like, Oh, that sounds great. I want that.

Lauryn: Right. Yeah. And like, I don't know how much you've looked at like generational differences, but like the newest workforce, like Gen Z, they, they say, I don't know, I'm a millennial, they say is not inspired necessarily by the dollar, but by feeling

Jill: Oh

Lauryn: a part of it. Now, hold on though. I've also heard kind of an opposite thing. All right. So on one hand, I've heard that Gen Z is like. I want to feel a part of the vision and mission and like I'm a valuable contribution to something. I've also heard that they're like, through an [00:37:00] identity, they're like, no, this, a job is a job, like, I don't need. So, like, what have you heard

Jill: Ah, okay. So I'll tell you what I know, but then, um, I can give you the name of someone, Karen McCullough, she is like the expert in the generations and she's a friend of mine, so I will like connect you and she can tell you more about, cause she's an expert in it. but, um. Um, what I've learned from Simon Sinek, who is an author that I love, he says, people are people.

So humans are humans. So you know, and, and I, he's such an amazing gifted speaker, so I can just let, I can listen to him speak all the time, but he's like, there's been every generation, you know, back when there was like baby boomers are like, Oh, these young whippersnappers, they don't really care. He was, it's just, it's, we always say that about our younger generation, but at the end of the day, if you connect humans to the why.

They're going to be more motivated. So I would say that that is universal. It's not going to stop. So we need to tell them about the why. And the more we can tell people about the [00:38:00] why of our company, then they're going to start caring about it. So we need to, as a regular basis on a regular basis, as leaders talk about the why of our company.

Like what is the why of our company? What is the impact we're trying to make for our people, our customers? And you need to keep, it's kind of like a pastor, you know, doing a, doing their sermon. Like, you don't, a pastor doesn't just. Tell you a lesson, a sermon, and just expect people to believe it. They keep preaching the same thing over and over again.

So when it comes to our purpose, our mission, our why as a company, like you have to be an evangelist all the time talking about the why. And when you're sick of talking about it, you need to keep going. It's not about you. So, um, so universally you need to be talking about the why for every single demographic, whatever generation.

And then the other thing, and I really find this in the younger generation because I have Again, like teenage daughters, um, I have a 17 year old and a 19 year old and what I know is if you need to make them feel respected, if you make them feel disrespected, whoo, they're going to be like, I'm out. [00:39:00] Like I, I am out.

I'm, I, you know, they, they're a little bit, I think. Maybe a little bit entitled. I don't know. I feel that a little bit like, like, I'm, I don't mean to offend anyone, but this has been my experience, but maybe it's just like all young people. Um, so how do you make people feel respected? You tell them I'm counting on you.

You've got a really important job here. Um, I'm not going to just bark orders. I'm going to tell you what your role is, what your responsibilities tell you about our mission. And I'm going to, okay. Um, and I'm going to be counting on you to deliver to the best of your ability. And that's why I'm going to be coaching, right?

So if you use that, the skills of coaching, it's going to help them feel more respected. And when they feel respected, I think they come back with a genuine engagement And an effort in the job versus if you make them feel disrespected by just telling them what to do and barking orders, then when you turn around, they're just going to be giving you the finger and, and maybe being disengaged or actively disengaged.

Lauryn: Or quiet [00:40:00] quitting is their term they like to use.

Jill: Quiet quitting. Yeah.

Lauryn: Um, so you wrote a book on bravery. How did these topics interweave?

Jill: Yeah. Because we've been, um, I mean, I have spent the last 15 years dedicated to like helping leaders be the best leader. So we spent most of our talk, time talking about that. But after I went back to school and studied positive psychology, I, I ended up. Getting really interested in this character strength of bravery and realizing that so many people in life, but especially in business, the reason why people don't achieve higher levels of success and happiness and well being is because fear prevents them or holds them back.

And I just realized like, wow, this is so interesting. So I did a deep dive in my research, my capstone on the science of bravery. And that's kind of my [00:41:00] new focus moving forward. And, um, and I do bring it to organizations as well, but it's, it's really teaching leaders, like, how do you help increase that self confidence and self belief so that people can be brave, which is setting challenging goals, believing that they can.

at a higher level. A lot of people just think like, I could never do that. Like I could just, I could never do that. and they have fear of even trying. So it really goes back to the individual. Like how do you teach individuals to be brave? And I'm not talking about. Running into burning buildings or enlisting in the Marine Corps or becoming like, like I, I was in the military, right.

I'm not talking about the bravado of like, you know, saving, you know, saving lives. I'm talking about the, like the everyday bravery of believing that I can do more. And it's scary, but you know, bravery is defined as taking action in the presence of fear. It's not eliminating fear. It's not waiting [00:42:00] until you feel ready.

It's taking a step in the presence of fear or despite fear. And, you know, fear holds people back from sharing an idea. Um, maybe.

Lauryn: What do they, in your research, like, what's the root there? Like, okay, so it's like, what, fear of looking stupid? Like, fear, like, Because fear of failure is like what everyone says of like, oh, but what if it doesn't work out? But like, that doesn't feel like enough of a root. Is it like, is it fear of embarrassment? That's really the root for a lot of people of why

Jill: It, there's many layers to it. It's whatever the risk is. So if you think of like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which anyone took, so you know that psychology one on one, it could be simply security. Someone that thinks of, what I really want is to do this career, but I have a job It pays [00:43:00] well, and I, and so from a security perspective, like I just need to, the right thing to do is to just keep earning a paycheck because it's a risk to try something different, you know, so it could be down in that the first labor, labor layer, just like, you know, what are

Lauryn: I could, I could lose my job, or I could not have enough money to pay my mortgage, and I

now lose my house. Like,

literally

Jill: Yeah. So if we look at all the layers, or sometimes it is, I'm, I'm afraid of, of, of failing, you know, and that's a risk that I'm scared of, or I'm really scared of that, the social implications. Like what if I, what if I speak up with an idea and it gets rejected, I'm going to be embarrassed.

Some people are scared of just being vulnerable, right? Of admitting. You know, that they've made a mistake or that, or that they don't know what to do. There's a lot of different layers to what people are scared of. And, um, and we got to unpack all of those, you know, so, so I think what, [00:44:00] I think that's the core thing that holds people back from getting the life that they want.

You know, like we're trying to avoid a life of regret. and. It's understanding what we're scared of, right? Like, what do you really want? What is the fear holding you back? And then how do you overcome those fears? And anyone can become brave. They just don't know how Ryan Nemec from the via strengths lab.

Um, so he's a researcher on, do you know him?

Lauryn: Not him, but I know the via strengths, yeah.

Jill: The via strengths. Yeah. So Ryan Emick is the one who runs via strengths. I mean, Chris Peterson started it, the original guy, but, um, now Ryan runs it and Ryan just published a paper and said that out of all the character strengths, bravery is one of the two that people want more of.

They want to elevate that character strength. They just don't know how, right. And then when I started digging into the research. there's not a lot of research on how to, how to build it. Like, it's like, everyone knows what, what bravery is and people that are brave can look back and say, here's what I did, but [00:45:00] like, how do you build bravery?

And that's kind of where I'm coming in is like, what are the things that we know that we can do to build more bravery really? So if people can just get whatever they want, do they want a better relationship? Do they want a better career? Do they want to maybe move up, you know, within their company? Do they, do they want to see the world, but they're scared to fly?

And there's so many. Aspects of, of fear, but it's, um, I'm just on a mission now to, I mean, I still do leadership stuff, my company, and I have other facilitators that deliver, but I really am just interested in helping people, be brave to take steps because when they do, Lauren, when they do, it is the most exhilarating thing ever.

The best moments in life are on the other side of something really hard.

Lauryn: Oh, but people have, like, but people are so comfortable being comfortable. Like, so, okay, so if you had to, because I know you wrote a book on this, if you had to give, like, one sentence, or like, in less than one minute, what's the [00:46:00] key piece of advice on helping someone starting to become more brave?

Jill: First of all, realizing that comfort does not bring you happiness. Comfort is a trap. The more you choose comfort, the more you get stuck in that rut and you're not going to take on those challenges. Marcus Aurelius, um, stoic philosopher, you

Lauryn: you just, like, quote all my favorite

Jill: I know, this is why we got to have another conversation. One of his quotes that I love is he goes, comfort is the worst addiction.

So staying comfortable and like removing challenges is, is the certain path to not a life well lived and a life of unfulfillment. So just start there and then there are things you can do to get comfortable stepping into discomfort. And I promise you that's the path to greater success, happiness, and well being, and it's mindset, actions, and relationships.

And that's what, um, that's what I teach is I teach people like the practical [00:47:00] things, right? Instead of just saying like, don't be, you know, don't, don't be uncomfortable. Just do the uncomfortable thing. Like I realize

Lauryn: Or just responding to your kids, but did you die? That's like, let's like, uh, example number one, right? Of exactly what you do. You just yell at them, but did you die?

Jill: Yeah. Did you die? Right. Exactly. And I have a, I have a, there's a little, there's a little like saying we have in the Marine Corps and my, my girls are really sick of hearing it, but I really believe it. and that is, um, in, in the Marine Corps, like people have it on their shirts, they have a tattoo on their body and it is pain is weakness leaving the body, which is a little like over the top, but just in general, like discomfort, like, you know, stepping in being uncomfortable.

Um, makes, you know, you stronger. So just, I want people to not choose the easy path. I want them to choose the uncomfortable path, the challenging path. That is the road. And that's the road to higher levels of success, happiness, and wellbeing. And this is not my opinion. Like I can back every one of these things up with, with research, [00:48:00] empirical evidence.

And so I just want to get that message out there because I think, I think we're getting too soft, Lauren. People are.

Lauryn: I'm not going to disagree with you there. I completely agree. I see entrepreneurs joining, starting a business and they're looking for work life harmony year one. And I'm like, Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry.

Jill: It's not reality.

Lauryn: are we talking about, and they're just like, and this is at multiple ages. This isn't, you know, um, cause I see hustle at multiple ages and I see like, wait, what?

You're starting a business. No, you gotta, you gotta go. You

Jill: You gotta grind.

Lauryn: Like it's okay. There is a time and place for that. But like, yeah, I

think,

Jill: They don't take the action. Like in, and in, in my framework, in my brave framework, which is my model, I talk about like first step is mindset. You got to believe that you can, but how many people do you know? This drives me crazy. These are the dreamers. These are the people that have vision boards and visions and goals.

They talk about it, but they don't do shit. You cannot stop at step [00:49:00] one, which is believing that you can, you got to grind. Right. And how do you get up, you know, each day and maybe do something you don't want to do to achieve your goals. Like there's, there's things that people can learn ways to develop that discipline.

to do those things. So you're right. Let's just give everyone a reality. You can't just, this is not, this is not someone who's a happiness scientist. You can't just dream something and manifest it and it's going to happen. You, you, that's, that's a start. You need to grind. It's going to be hard. It's not going to be easy, but it doesn't mean that you're doing it wrong.

And in fact, that's why it feels so damn good when you accomplish it because it was hard. If it's just easy. Then it's not going to lead to as much satisfaction, right? So yeah, let's choose a hard path. Stop being comfortable. Comfort is the worst

Lauryn: think, I think society's figuring it out. I think like the rise of Jordan Peterson and things like that. Like, I think that there is, I think we're starting [00:50:00] to go like, Oh, actually, I think we kind of came maybe a little hard on like alpha energy and toxic masculinity. And like, I think we like went a little anti and like, yes, there are some aspects that we can evolve out of, but like, let's not, I think we threw the baby out with the bathwater.

So I think.

The baby's coming back inside. So,

Jill: Yes. We're trying to swing that

Lauryn: Bringing the baby back inside. Okay. So, where can people find more of you?

Jill: Oh, um, well just go to my website, it's probably the best way. Um, my website is just my name, so it's, it's jillschulman. com, J I L L S C H U L M A N. com. You can sign up for my newsletter. You can take an assessment. Really understanding, like. How brave am I? And you're going to get a result in the three areas, brave mindset, brave action, brave relationships.

And then you just get a free guide to give you tips on how to work in those areas. So I have that as a resource or follow me on, [00:51:00] on LinkedIn, on Instagram. I'm always giving like little blurbs to sometimes we just need the. the little reminders day in and day out. Like, um, I personally have my daily reminders.

Like, I have a different quote I look at each day because I'm a big fan of stoic philosophy. So I like, I get my little quotes from the people I look up to and, and those reminders every day really helped me live my brave life. So if people follow me, like I just do like little things to keep people, you know, move it in that direction and reminding them, cause we all need the reminders, especially on those tough days.

So, yep, they can follow me in all those ways. Um, and then I've got my book coming out. The book is, is written. I've written it as a parable. I love reading stories. Instead of boring business books, um, I love parables. So this is an entertaining parable teaching the science of bravery in an entertaining way.

It only takes two hours to read. So, um, it will be coming out in late May of 2025. So if they, if you just get on my website and sign up for my [00:52:00] newsletter, um, we'll be having like, you know, information about the book coming out. Um, but hopefully that can help people as well.

Lauryn: Awesome. Thank you so much. This was really, really enjoyable. Um, okay, She Slayers, we'll have those links for you below. go take your bravery assessment. Uh, if you like topics like this, make sure that you are subscribed to the podcast. That helps the podcast even more than reviews, but Absolutely leave a review and then make sure you are signed up for our weekly newsletter to make sure you're getting all the downloads on things.

Jill, thank you so much again and I hope you, I wish you all the success in talking about bravery because we as a society definitely need it.

Jill: We need it. We need it. Well, thank you, Lauren. I had so much fun being on the podcast and chatting with you. Like I feel like. Um, you're my new bff. I had so much fun

Lauryn: on a weekly basis I'm just getting new BFFs. Bearing my soul of like being a selfish leader. I'm like, oh shit, that was my takeaway takeaway of like, oh, I'm a

Jill: [00:53:00] Oh, you're like, oh shit. You know what? I was that way too if there was hope for me There's hope for everyone because I did it wrong before I did it, right? So

Lauryn: Good. All right. She slayers until next week. Bye.