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potential of your podcast. Very

special guest on the show today, someone who, if you've been

to podcasting events, especially Podfest, you probably know who he is. He's

he's always there, and he's always has a big presence. It is

Glenn Hebert aka Glenn the Geek, founder of the Horse Radio Network,

and host of Horses in the Morning. Glenn, thank

you for joining me tonight. Well, I'm glad to be here. And, you know, I

don't know why we haven't done this sooner. I think we've known each other ten

years at this point. It's a long time. Right. There's no reason why you shouldn't

have been on before. It's funny because I it's a lot of people, they'll

ask me about podcasting and advertising and niches

and I always tell the story, when you and

I first met or, you know, we were we were sitting down chatting at Podfest

one year and you were talking about shows that are successful and

levels of success. And I always remember, you know, horses in the morning, obviously,

massive audience, big download numbers. But I always remember you telling me

that you have that carriage horse racing show or you had that carriage horse

racing show, and that actually had, like, bigger margins or was

technically more profitable even though it was a really tiny audience. And I I took

that to heart, and I always share that with people, you know, as far as,

like, why niches are important. And I definitely wanna come back to that some more.

But first, just real quickly, you have an interesting foray

into podcasting, in particular into

podcasting about all things horses. Tell us how you,

you know, got started with horses in the morning and and eventually launched the

network. Well, I, I was a performer for a long

time. A matter of fact, I have a picture up here above my head that's,

an acting company that I owned for ten years, and we did medieval

feasts. We kinda did a Benny Hill version of a medieval feast. So it

was fun. It was improv. It was we did 450 shows.

And I got out of that, got into doing business stuff. I was

in finance for a long time and, owned some companies and sold some

companies. And then, I just needed an outlet

for for the creative side again, you know, for the performer side.

And my brother said, hey. There's this thing. I listened to Twit. I listened

to Leo Laporte's Twit, and this was back in 02/2006.

And he said, I think they called a podcast. You ought to check it out.

Maybe that's something you could do. And that's and that's how it started.

I, I did my first show in 02/2006, which was an immense

failure because none of us knew what we were doing and nobody knew how to

listen. And it was way ahead of where I should have been in the horse

world. And then in 02/2008, I tried it again. Technology

had caught up a little. Smartphones were just starting. You know, it was a little

easier to listen to a podcast and then started

a Stable Scoop show with my good friend Helena. And I knew I always wanted

a network. So we started one show on the horse radio network.

And I called it radio back then because nobody knew what a podcast was, but

I could tell them it was online radio and they would kind of get it

right. That's why it was radio network and not podcast

network because, you know, back then, nobody knew. We barely

knew. So people struggling today. Yeah. And then we started

more shows. And then I always wanted to be a morning

radio show guy, but I didn't wanna go to work.

So that's when I put out a call for a cohost

to start horses in the morning, which would be a daily show an hour an

hour and a half every day, five days a week. And we started that in

02/2010 with Jamie, my cohost, who came out of morning radio in

Atlanta. She was in top four 40 morning radio in Atlanta. You know how

the morning radio shows always have two guys and the girl, the token

girl? Well, she was the token girl. You know? So, you know, she was that

person, but she had, you know, done very well there and moved and

decided she wanted to talk about horses. So we started horses in the morning,

and now we're at 3,600 episodes fifteen years later.

Incredible. Yeah. I I'm I guess

what what made the show you think

attractive to people? You know, like, you're you're doing this

morning radio thing, but you're also keeping the focus on horses. Do you think

having that focus helped in the success rate finding that

specific niche, that specific filter to go through what's happening in your

lives and what's happening in the world, was, you know, able to

help you grow your audience? No question. I mean, horse people are addicted

to horses. They spend all their time and money on horses, period. There's nothing else

in their lives. So so we had that going for us. So it

was a good niche. And there wasn't really any other podcast out there

for horses. The Daily Show, I think I think

the reason it well, it's what I always say. They come for the content, but

they stay for the host. And that's true for podcasts or YouTube channels.

If you think about all the YouTube channels you watch and subscribe to, subscribe

to, you're subscribed because you like the presenters. You like the host. You like the

people that are doing the show. There's a million travel shows out

there. We subscribe to four or five different YouTube channels because we like

them. So we would watch whatever they did. And, you know,

and that's true of especially true of podcasts. So

I think that, people came, tried out horses in the morning. It's a

commitment to subscribe to a show that's gonna take five hours of your

week. Right? That's a commitment because it's an hour every

day. And they subscribe because they like me. They

like Jamie. They especially like Jamie. She's probably my most popular cohost.

But it's because we're vulnerable. We're out there. We talk about our lives. The show

initially started to be about our guests, and now the biggest complaint we

get is we have too many guests. And it's not enough for us

because the show really has become about us and our lives in the horse world

and how it relates to horses because everybody we're just average horse people. I'm a

horse husband. I wasn't even, you know, a horse guy to start with. She's a

trainer. So it it really we have that kind of I

asked the dumb questions. She asked the intelligent questions. But that

kinda works. Right? And now now fifth you know,

6,000 interviews later, I probably know more about horses

than most horse people, but that's just because of doing the

show. But I think that's why people hung around. They got invested in us, and

I think that's why our Patreon community is there and so addicted. And

it's why it works, is because

we were like them. Now we and we do some good interviews, and, you

know, we have some fun along the way. It's a comedy show, first and foremost.

It's entertainment. And and I think the other thing is I was the first

one to really start the segment instead of doing just

a long interview show. We will have four or five

segments in the show. So our interview is never more than ten to

fifteen minutes, and then we're done with the interview and moving on to a

different segment. So there was all if you weren't interested in that guest, you

just fast forward fifteen minutes, and you were at something else. If you didn't like

the something else, fast forward fifteen minutes, you were at something else. So we always

had segments, in the show, and some of them are recurring

segments every week, some are once a month, you know, and some are

just one offs. But they always knew that there's gonna be something new

in about ten, fifteen minutes. I the

idea of segments is so interesting. One of the shows that I've been listening to

podcasting forever is Wait Wait on Tommy, and that is a highly

structured show. Now, of course, it started as a radio show, so it made

sense where they had to fit to the clock, but they've kept that structure

all along the way. And it's interesting because I I like

listening. I feel like a comfort in listening. And anytime they break

the mold, right, they do a best of show or they do something else. I'm

always just a little bit uncomfortable listening. And so, like, did

you have that thought about the familiarity of segments, or

was it just something that you felt like it worked and you just kept wanting

to come back to it? I stole the none of these are new

ideas. Right? Nothing we do is new. So I stole the idea from

a morning syndicated radio show called Bob and Cherry. And I've become good

friends with them now since then, by the way. But they were

on for years, and I listened to them for years. And I was like, I

wanna do a segmented show like they do because they had regular guests,

one guy that came on did movie reviews, and I so look forward to him

coming on. So I knew if we could get regular guests that would show up

once a month, that people would look forward to that too, and they would look

forward to the segments that we do. The most popular thing we do, hands down,

is on Fridays. The last thing we do on a Friday, and

I knew I needed something that was gonna keep people to the last thing on

a Friday show, right, before they head into the weekend to ride their horse,

is we do something called really bad ads. And that's where listeners

submit bad Craigslist and Facebook ads for horses for sale. And

we just make fun of them. Basically, we just make fun of them.

And it's our most popular thing we do. We get hundreds of people submitting every

month. And then we got sponsors that wanted to give away prizes. So we

give away prizes every month. We randomly pick three of the

people who submitted bad ads, and we give away 4 or $500 worth of

prizes every month for people who submit bad ads. And

so, you know, that was that was just that happened by

accident, and it was one of the all the good segments we do now happen

by accident along the way, and we just followed them. I love that.

Just kinda follow what works, try different things, and you just

gotta kinda trust your gut. And I love that idea that you save

it for the very end. Lots of folks are always, you know, wondering, how do

I get people to listen to the very end of the show? And it's like,

you have to have a hook. You have to have something that people

wait for. And and there are lots of shows that do this really

well, but I think the way you just described it is brilliant that you were

really conscious of that thought. So so what happens next? You, you know, you

did the first show, The Stable Scoop, then you do Horses in the Morning. Where

does it go from there in terms of growing the network? Well, I I

I knew that we had we had identified a ton of niches in the horse

world that we could do shows about. My thing

was always finding the right host. So my first goal was to

find the right host, and I did that usually by doing

interviews on one of the shows. So we'd have them a guest on one of

the shows, and I'd go, that person may would make a good host. And then

we would I'd figure out what niche they really were good in

or competed in or whatever, And then I would approach them, and that we always

started with the host and then built the show. And

so, you know, we built, 20 plus shows over the

years, and I would never start a show unless they

had a sponsor either. So the two things I had to have was a good

host, a good sponsor, and a good marketing partner.

So I'll give you an example. We started a show. There's a there's a very

boring and I'm not everybody knows how I feel about this. There's a very

boring but very popular, competition in the horse world called

dressage. It's kinda like dancing. You know? And it for horse

husbands, it's boring. My wife did it, so I had to watch it. So,

I, you know, I can speak from spirits. But we've the Dressage

Federation in The United States was, we approached them about

being a a media partner for that show. So now and making it the official

podcast for that for, Dressage.

So twelve years ago, we started that show, and they were a marketing

partner. What that got us was an audience. There was no money exchanged

hands, but they promoted the show. So it brought an audience in.

And here we are twelve years later. That show is still one of our most

popular shows, and we're still the official show of the of the federation.

So it was media partners, sponsors, and

the right host. I I'm I'm envisioning you

at these events, you know, sitting at a table almost like dodgeball

with Jason Bateman and what's his face, you know. You know, talking about the

Ocho and, you know, like, just having fun, like, watching people do it is. Do

you go to the events and kind of broadcast from there as well?

Not as much. We've been we get invited to 10 events a month.

And the problem with that is every time you leave the house, it's

$1,500. You know, it's funny because I would I

would tell people that and they don't believe you, but when you figure it out,

if you take everything into consideration, every time I leave the house to go to

an event, it's at least $1,500. So we knew we couldn't cover everything

and be able to afford it and be able to sustain it, so we didn't.

We just didn't. We went to key a couple key events every year to shows

every year. But the one thing we never missed was the

wholesaler show with wholesalers and retailers in the horse world. There

was two of those every year. I've been to almost 40 of them

now. And we went to those, one, to highlight new products that were coming out

because our listeners love hearing about new products, but two was to find sponsors. It's

at those in person events where we found 80% of our

sponsors. Because when you're face to face with someone, you got their

attention. And if you give them something and then approach them

about sponsoring, so we give them an interview where they could highlight their new product,

put it on a show, and follow-up with them, They would see a

result from the interview. They the you know, that talking about that new

product, they see sales coming in, and then we had their attention, and we'd go

after them for sponsors after that. So it was that in person

wholesaler meat retailer show where we and then eventually

by the way, we do their podcast now, the Wholesale Show's

podcast. And we go there now and do shows. We actually

record shows at at the event in Dallas. But, you know, it

was always finding a marketing partner. And I, you know, we we got we

were the first ones to have press passes at an event like this because nobody

ever did that. And then, you know, I just approached them and said, why don't

you do your own show? And that show has a smaller audience,

maybe five to 700 a month, but it's targeted to the

retailers, you know, where the wholesalers meet the retailers. So that's a very

targeted show and very effective that way. But

yeah. So we do their show now too. It's all about partnerships.

It's all about who you meet. And, you know, it it's all about who knows

you, not who you know, but who knows you. That's the most important

thing. Do people know you? I I'm I I

wanna go back to this idea of the wholesalers at the interview

and talking to them. And but real quickly, let's go back to that idea of

the the, you know, the super niche. Right? The CaraTaurus racing or

dressage. Like, what did you find when you

were creating these extremely niche shows

with these wholesalers or, you know, all these very specific topics. Like, how did

those compare to the more general day to day, you

know, talk show format that focused around horses but

wasn't, you know, as super niche as some of these other ones? It was easier

to find sponsors for the niche shows because, you know, a lot of

your sponsors our sponsors in our world are medium to

smaller companies. A lot of them, you know, they have three or four employees,

but they target they target that niche. They have saddles or bridles or

whatever for that specific discipline. So it

was actually easier to target them and have them come

aboard and actually have them do well. So, you know, we're doing this

because we want them to sell stuff. You know, we're our goal is to help

them sell stuff. So we were never looking for the large companies, the

ones with ad agencies, because they weren't looking at us either. Right? They don't wanna

be bothered. So we always we always talk to the

medium to small companies because I can do I could help them grow. Our first

sponsor years ago, fifteen years ago now, is

still our biggest sponsor today. And she says, you

know, over the last fifteen years, she's gotten more direct response from

our shows than any other advertising they do, and they do a lot, like, you

know, well into 6 figure advertising. But she said, I hear more

from your people who say I listened to you know, I heard you on the

show. I I have this question for you about my horse. She

said, that's who I hear from. I don't hear from somebody that says I saw

a magazine ad. You know? Because our advertising is so

personal. It's you know? I I can say, hey. Look. I use Kentucky

performance products with my pony, and this is why. That's

much more personal than seeing a magazine ad. And, you know, I'm owned

now by a company that owns 10 magazines, so they love when I say

this stuff. But I'm sure they do. I

have to imagine too that being part of that magazine, allows them

to sell, like, big bundled advertising. They do. Is right. Like Yeah. And now

and, you know, we sold I sold the network, to

almost three years ago now and to, one of the largest

media companies in the horse world. And they they didn't have an audio

side. They had magazines. They had video. They owned some

companies as well, some production companies, but, they didn't have the audio

side. So they wanted that tripod, and they were missing the audio.

So that's why they took a look at buying us. And, it took about six

months of negotiations. Fortunately, I had a very good lawyer.

And, you know, we made the deal, and, my deal was that I would

continue on for three years after running the network. And that very

seldom works out with principals. They usually last six months, and

either they're fired or they leave. It never works out, actually.

You know that as well as I do. It just doesn't work. People say they're

gonna do it, but here I am because they've been very good to me, and

I've tried to continue doing my job to my best ability. And then

hopefully, continuing on after October, I'll I'll just be hosted

horse hosting horses in the morning, and then somebody else will be running the

network. That's the goal. Very nice. Yeah. I have some experience. I I

stayed on for six months with the company when when it was sold in a

totally consulting role, right, just helping them out as much as I could, very amicable.

But, yeah, a lot of people when I was approached about the sale said, don't

try and stay on. It it never works out, so I understand. Well, you

know, it's different though with podcasting because if you think about it, you know, I

host, you know, one of the most popular show on the network. You

can't do that because that show then goes away. You know?

It was my relationships with these sponsors and all of that that

was built. So I think they were smart enough to realize, hey. This guy can't

go away or we just lose our investment. And in podcasting, that's different

because it is all about the personalities. That's true. People are coming

for you and your co host. One one thing you said earlier that I wanna

just touch on real quickly, you know, you you talk to these

wholesalers and you interview them and then you get them to

sponsor. They need to pitch them to have their own show and you you

help them target their specific audience, which are the retailers.

What is your strategy for real

efficient podcast marketing

targeting something so specific as that? It's the media

partners. It's the partners we have because they have the audience

already. So in this case in this case, it was kinda easy. So when you

have the wholesale show, they already have a you know, they they know who their

clients are. They know who the retailers that come to the show are. So we're

targeting them directly. It becomes a little easier because they're already in communication with them

through social media and email and all of that. With a

more general show like Courses in the Morning, it's word-of-mouth. You know, you

know, you still see the statistics come out. It was more so

years ago that the only way people came to your show is through

word-of-mouth. 70% of people found you through word-of-mouth because search wasn't that

good years ago for podcasting. You know that. That's only gotten better since

COVID, really. And yeah. Yeah. And you're right. It's still not great. Right?

You search horses now and and you'll get all but horse in the morning

doesn't come up first. Depending on what search engine you use.

So we knew word-of-mouth. So we actually did campaigns throughout the year

to encourage our our listeners to tell their friends. You

know, you're at the barn today. Go tell your all your friends at the barn

that you listen to the show. Or better yet, put the if they own the

barn, put the show on and let them listen to it. And a lot of

our listeners actually play the show in the barn, on

speakers. So they listen to it every day because we hear from them all the

time, you know, that they're we do horse whinnies throughout the show occasionally.

And they said, every time that horse whinnies, my horse is whinnying back.

You know? So it's that kind of thing. It was it's word-of-mouth. And

you know as well as I do, for somebody to subscribe to a new

podcast, it's a commitment for them. They're thinking

about, do I have time for this? They're subconsciously going, we do it too when

we subscribe to stuff. We're going, do I have time to listen to this show,

or will I have to take the time to listen to this show?

So it's a real commitment. I think that's become harder over the years.

I think now it's harder for people to commit because there

are they have all this other stuff they can commit to, audiobooks

and, you know, a million podcasts and all of that.

So our our challenge has become, how do we teach people what a

podcast is to how do we now get

people to listen to ours as opposed to the 5,000 others, you know, that are

in our niche? Yeah. I I

it's interesting. I I find that I don't have a problem with, do I have

the time to commit to a different show? Because usually I'm finding something because I'm

getting bored of something else. It's it's the time

to figure out if I'm gonna like it. Right? Because because it

you know, you listen to the first episode, you you have no familiarity with it.

Right? Maybe they're inside jokes or, you know, maybe there's something about the personality that

is just new to you, and it takes a while for you to get so

comfortable with it that you wanna listen. And, you know, that that's usually

my struggle is, you know, I know I'm looking for a show about x, and

I listen to a bunch and I go, Right? Like and then I I

find myself just going back to the shows that I don't like because at least

there's that familiarity with it. Isn't that interesting?

And, you know, we always say, like, with the morning show, with the daily show,

it's even it's a serious commitment, right, for people to subscribe to that.

So we always say it takes them people and our our surveys have

proved this. It takes people about a week to to figure it out

and to go, okay. I really like this. I'm gonna hang around. They almost have

to have to listen for a week. Now I would say, though,

with most podcasts that you try, you determine in the first three minutes whether

you're gonna hang around or not. You determine in the first three minutes that you're

not gonna hang around. Right? You may not commit

to to it for a long term. You may give it more time to do

that, but in the first three minutes, you're determining whether you're gonna you you bugged

out if you're totally not into this. And it why? It's because you

usually don't like the host. Yep. Yep. That that is

true. Well, we do like this house. We're speaking with Glenn Heber to Glenn McGeek,

founder of the Horse Radio Network, host of Horses in the Morning.

Before we let you go, there's three questions that we've been asking everybody about the

podcasting world. And since you've been in it for so long, I think, you know,

the audience is gonna find real value in your answers. The first thing is, is

there a place in podcasting where you would like

to see some improvement, whether it's from production,

distribution, marketing, consumption, right, like discovery? What's that

one thing where you're just like, man, we we still need to fix this?

I would say, and this has been my preaching for the last

several years, is we need Apple and the major podcast

players to segregate out dead shows from active

shows. There's you know, when you take a look at the

4,200,000 shows that are out there, what what do

we see recently? It's almost 400,000 that are active in the last ninety

days. That's a lot of crap just sitting there that's not being

updated. And I know when I go look for shows in a specific topic, the

first thing I look at is, are they still producing? And it's so

frustrating because you'll go through 20 shows that haven't done an

episode in in two years and to find the one that's still

active. So I know we because of,

you know, seasoned shows like Serial, we can't get rid of those

shows. They can't just disappear off the podcast player. So I am

proposing that we have an archived section and an

active section on podcast players. So you can search

specifically for active shows. And maybe that's whatever active is determined to

be. You know, they produced an episode in the last ninety days, six

months, whatever that is, year. And then you can

also search the archive shows. I think that's the solution to that

problem, and I do think it's a problem. It's frustrating. You know,

that's that's a really interesting idea. And as soon as you said that, I was

thinking of a few shows that I listened to that were, like, you know, specialized

niche topics. Like, Rob Reiner did a whole thing on the JFK assassination,

and, you know, there was, one on

Uber or Airbnb, right, the rise and fall of these, you know, tech CEOs,

Jeffrey Epstein kind of stuff. And, like, those are small

series, and, yes, they haven't put out an episode in two, three years,

but they're still interesting and topical. My concern to what

you're saying but I think it's fascinating, interesting, but, you know, what

we will see now are shows that will have done

something like that, right, short series, and then they'll just release

weird stuff every ninety days just to make sure they stay in the good section.

And and that's why I think that if I were to do it, if I

was a Pocket Casts, let's for instance. Right? I

would have the search automatically go to both sections, but then you can

so the default is everybody, all the shows. But

then you can you can go, hey. Look. I just wanna search archived, or I

just wanna search active. So so it's up

to us as the listener then to have control. And I'm always

about listeners having control. So I still think

that's still my biggest pet peeve. Yeah. No. I I like it. I think

you're frustration from being a listener searching for shows. Yeah. I

think you're definitely on to something. I I, you know, I think it the bad

idea needs massaging, but Apple, I know you're listening.

Get on it. Glenn Glenn is asking you. What about tech? Is

there any tech on your list, wish list, whether it's something out there

that you haven't purchased or something that you're like, god, I need somebody to make

this to make my life easier. Again, production or or

consumption. You know, I think it was solved for me

when the Rodecaster, came out and when the

mixers that are specifically made for podcasting came out.

That's what solved it for me. The Zoom p four for going to shows.

So the Zoom p four, I can hook four microphones up to, hook it to

my laptop, show up at somebody's barn, and I don't even need power.

And everything runs off battery. I can do an entire episode right

there in their barn aisle, and I can carry it in

a small case. So, you know, when

we first started, we were using music mixers. And to be honest, I didn't

understand 95% of the buttons on it. Right? I didn't know when any of them

did. I I didn't wanna know. So when the RODECaster Pros

and those came out, that that really solved a lot of the problems that

that I had. So I would say I'm happy with where things are now.

Microphones, we used to have to pick from one, you know, or

two. And now we have, you know, a hundred to pick from. And I bought

a lot of them, and I don't even know what I'm using currently. Yeah. I

have no idea. I don't care, as little as it sounds. You just

cycle through a I'm not really a better if you have a stock. Not a

stuff guy. So it you know, I have content over

stuff. Fair enough. I I like that idea, by the way, because, yeah, you're in

barns. How many barns have power outlets? Probably not very many,

if if not any. So it's a really interesting find. And then with the p

four, right, the batteries, that that works really nicely. Alright. And then the last

question is, what is, what podcasts are you listening to

today? Like, what is that show that when the new episode comes out,

you are going to stop what you're doing, check it out, or what's

that show that you know I'm I will not miss an episode.

I'm still, after thirty years, listening to Bob and Sherry.

That was the syndicated radio show. Of course, that was a podcast now.

And they've started other podcasts. And I know the, the producer of

that show. I've met him at conferences, and we talk all the time. And he

actually asked me about podcasting stuff. So I listened to that. That's one I

will not miss. Ironically, I have two daily shows I listen to all the time,

and that's DT and S, which is the daily tech news show.

That was Tom Merritt. And I listened to him from probably about twenty

years ago doing multiple different shows. He's his own network now. They do very well

with Patreon too. They have about, it was a

16,000 Patreon subscribers at Daily Tech News Show. They're one of the

biggest, and they're completely supported by

Patreon, support. So those two, Bob and Sherry and

the Daily Tech News Show. And then, of course, ask the podcast coach,

one of my favorites. And then, of course, School of Podcasting. Dave

Jackson's been my mentor. He doesn't know it, but he's been my mentor

since day one, you know, years ago, when I met

him. So, yeah, those are the ones I listen to religiously. And then

there are one other two, and I'll mention him because, he's a friend of mine,

and I love the show, was What Was That Like with Scott

Johnson. That's an interesting Yeah. Yeah. He gets the weirdest

stories of people who've been through, like, you know, my parachute didn't open and

I lived. You know? And then they tell the story, that kind of thing. And

some are highly selective about his show because some of the things I

can't listen to. You know? But, he's one of the shows that I can't

listen to every episode because because I my brain don't handle it.

But I like that show too. Yeah. You know, I I I remember his

marketing is so effective because he would put up a a picture or, you

know, a a big post with words on it, and he would say, right. Like,

I, you know, jumped out of a plane and my parachute didn't open and I

lived. You're like, yep. I've got to hear more. Right? Like, it was

just great FOMO marketing. He has done

probably better than anybody I know at marketing and also

creating a community, which we have too, but he's created

community on Facebook of listeners. He provided them a place to

go, which is a mistake that a lot of podcasts make because they don't give

their listeners a place to talk. And he did that, and it's it's

one of the most active I've seen. It's very active.

Ours is too. You know? Ours are a lot alike that way, but, yeah,

we are we've limit our closed group to

Patreon supporters. So I kinda put a paywall in the way of our

closed group because I wanted people who are really serious so I'd keep out

the you know, so there wouldn't be political posts and things like that. Riffraff.

Yeah. Yeah. And and, you know, that that idea

of having a community and having it, a paywall to get

into it is for podcasters who are trying to monetize and don't have

a budget, a free and easy way to start earning

money right away. It costs you nothing to start a private

Facebook group and to just invite people in. Yes, it's a little bit slower,

but, right, somebody somebody will pay you $510 20 for

access to a group that provides value versus hoping that you

get 5,000 downloads and have an advertiser pay you $25 for

every thousand you get. So, great great mention, great callback to,

the power of community and and whatnot, and my god, great advice. We could probably

do this for six days and, still not go through all the knowledge that you

have, but we have been listening to Glenn Hebert, Glenn the Geek,

founder of the Horse Radio Network, host of Horses in the

Morning. And if you have never been to Podfest

in Orlando, I implore you to go. You can

just go. Always there, and he's always doing something to make

the crowd laugh and to put on a good show, and, you know, go there

and say hi to him. He's he's a great great person,

and really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much. Thanks, Matthew. Thanks

for joining us today on Podcasting Tech. There are links to all the

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