I would like to acknowledge the Dharawal people, the Aboriginal people of Australia, whose country I live and work on. I would like to pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and thank them for sharing their cultural knowledge and awareness with us.

[00:00:39] Trisha: Hi there, everyone. I'm Trisha Carter, an organizational psychologist and explorer of cultural intelligence. I'm on a quest to discover what enables us to see things from different perspectives. especially different cultural perspectives, and why sometimes it's easier than others to experience those moments of awareness, the shifts in thinking. As those of you who have listened to some of our earlier episodes will be aware, cultural intelligence, CQ, the capability to be effective in situations of diversity, is made up of four areas. There's Motivational, CQ Drive, Cognitive, CQ Knowledge, Metacognitive, CQ Strategy, and Behavioral, CQ Action. And all four of these can help us operate better in situations of diversity.

[00:01:26] Trisha: In this podcast, we're focusing more on the metacognitive aspect, thinking about our thinking, it's CQ strategy. Today I'm speaking with a friend and colleague who is the global director of culture and employee experience for us corporation Wahl Clipper. And it has over 3, 300 employees spread across 24 countries.

[00:01:50] Trisha: But he is also a university professor and where I met him, he's a CQ fellow. He is a friend and colleague from my CQ fellows group in 2023. He's based in Sterling, Illinois in the USA and his spare time, he's writing a book as well. Welcome, Marc so good to see you.

[00:02:09] Marc: Thank you. It's really good to see you too, Trisha. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:12] Trisha: it's, it's good to be able to reconnect and hear how things are going. And of course, before we talk about your work, I want to unpack the questions that we ask all of our guests. So Marc, what is a culture, other than the culture you grew up in, that you have learned to love and appreciate?

[00:02:30] Marc: I mean, as I, as I was looking through this, I said, all of them, right. I love every culture I've ever experienced, but, you know, in all seriousness, the Japanese culture is probably, the first that I grew to love and appreciate. I was a Rotary Youth Exchange student, when I was 15, till 16.

[00:02:46] Trisha: such a good scheme, isn't it?

[00:02:48] Marc: Yeah, and it was a completely transformative part of my life, and it was in all my years of, of experiences later that I realized those first, that first experience was what was really so transformative in how I see and view the world.

[00:03:04] Trisha: And so then when you're thinking about shifts, can you tell me about a time you experienced the shift when you suddenly became aware of a new perspective?

[00:03:13] Marc: Yeah, during that time in Japan, For the first part of being there, I was, in an immersive language camp for a month, but then the rest of my year, I spent in Okinawa, Japan, which is the southernmost island, of the country. And, I mean, Tokyo in general was a vast shift from where I grew up.

[00:03:30] Marc: I grew up in a town of 15, 000 people in rural, Illinois and the United States, and all of a sudden I was thrust into Tokyo. And then from there I went to an island and, which was again, completely unlike anything I had had grown up with. so there were big shifts just in, in the location of where I was.

[00:03:49] Marc: But then to, to start recognizing that even within the country of Japan, there was this sub dimension or this sub culture of Okinawa, which had its own unique customs and its own unique, language and, and those sorts of things. And, all of a sudden I realized. The, the difference there, but then also the sameness of looking back at the United States and realizing we might be one country, but based upon the location that you are in the United States, there's this subcultures that exist.

[00:04:20] Marc: And for me, at the age of 15, 16, that recognition, again, I'm so blessed to have had that at such a young age, that now I, I, you know, As I went into the world, then I started to see those things in a much different way.

[00:04:35] Trisha: That's amazing. and that recognition of, looking back and going, Oh, well, actually we like that too. Yeah. So you see the commonality and then you would have gone home to see much more of the difference, between the areas around you. Were there cultural aspects that stood out in Japan as well?

[00:04:51] Marc: I mean, I was a student, right? And when I was there, and one of the things that stood out to me. was the dynamics in the classroom and how the students really own the classroom in Japan and the teachers rotated. And that was something that struck me because, uh, you know, in the U S here, we, it's the teachers own the classroom and the students rotate, to the different classes.

[00:05:12] Marc: So it was a, it was. That was one of the little learnings, right? but one thing that really stood out to me was the hierarchical differences, that, that existed, you know, recognizing that, that power distance was in play. And of course I didn't understand the term power distance when

[00:05:29] Marc: I was 16 years old.

[00:05:30] Marc: but learning those things at a young age and, and seeing that Around the world, people interact in a much different way. And, and that was something, again, I took back on that moment. It's a big aha.

[00:05:42] Trisha: And it wasn't something that you were, looking down on or disagreeing with.

[00:05:47] Marc: No, not at all.

[00:05:48] Trisha: You were just in it and experiencing it as, Oh, this is how they do it. This is what they do.

[00:05:55] Marc: yeah, I, I had one great thing about the, the Rotary program was the, training they kind of gave you as a student going into a new place you know, being prepared that everything you were going to see, everything you were going to taste, everything you were going to smell was going to be probably different than what you grew up with, and being open to all of that.

[00:06:16] Marc: Um, I think the, The most difficult part was honestly, when I came back to the United States and that reverse culture and, you're thrust back into the culture that you grew up in and thinking, Oh, it's fine. I'll just drop back in. And and then all of a sudden you're not the same anymore. And. what was once one little culture that you were that you were part of right in a national culture, let's say, all of a sudden that's been expanded and you're not, you don't fit anymore, necessarily. And, and I, again, that was something that as I, in later life, started to work and travel around the world was something that was a lesson learned for me on how to flex, right? In, in going, okay, I've gone into this place.

[00:07:06] Marc: I can flex and use these cultural sort of, uh, dimensions. Um, and, but when I come back to the United States, I have to remember where I'm at and flex again, and, and almost treat, Coming back to the United States as going someplace new, and and thinking about it as I just have all of this cultural knowledge now that I can can use as my tools.

[00:07:28] Trisha: You and I have, spoken about being on aeroplanes and international flights and how it's this space often between, you're not in one culture, you're not in another. And you've got a moment often to look back. and to look forward, and do some reflection. Do you think that's part of your process for, because as a global business traveler, you would have done this lots of times, was that airplane part of the process for getting back into the right space?

[00:07:56] Trisha: That you needed to

[00:07:57] Trisha: be.

[00:07:57] Marc: Yeah, maybe I never really thought about that way, but probably, yeah, it was those moments where I could say, okay, I need to, I can debrief on where I just was and kind of have that what we call CQ strategy, right? And how am I going to get ready for, Getting home. And how am I going to get ready, whether it be both directions, right?

[00:08:18] Marc: Be having that CQ strategy to prepare for who, what I was going to encounter when I landed, on either end. And, and you're right, the metacognitive part has always been my kind of favorite part of the CQ strategy. And I think, those who are intrinsically motivated, you're going to go out and seek the knowledge, but then really using that strat, that knowledge and being strategic in how you're, engaging with others.

[00:08:41] Marc: That to me has always been one of the most, important or probably the most important aspect of the model for me.

[00:08:47] Trisha: I sort of jumped ahead a bit there because we haven't really told the listeners about your work. So for many years you were probably on a plane. Or between cultures, uh, more than you were at home, so to speak. So tell us a little bit about, you know, that role and what you were doing.

[00:09:04] Marc: Sure. For most of my career, I worked in international marketing and business development and probably for a good, I don't know, dozen, 12, 13, 14 years, I was on a plane probably once a month.

[00:09:17] Marc: Somewhere in The world and I was always based at our headquarters in the United States, but would frequently travel to either our subsidiaries or to our customers around the world.

[00:09:26] Marc: Most of my work was always internal, which again was, more about how we, developed our internal processes, how we, engage with others, how we built our marketing programs, have for consistency, which was always, something of a, challenging, work experience, but also very rewarding to, to get a group of.

[00:09:43] Marc: Folks and colleagues from, you know, 10 different countries. And how do we, put something forward that is going to work in all of these different places? And so that was a big part of my work for a long time. And it wasn't until the last probably, five or so years that my focus shifted to Really more of the, how do we continue to build, our experience for our employees within the organization?

[00:10:09] Marc: We obviously have our teams to continue to go out into the market and meet with our customers. My focus really shifted on how are we making the experience the best it can be for our employees within the organization?

[00:10:20] Trisha: And. Great to bring CQ cultural intelligence to both of those aspects from, the, international marketing and then to the employee experience, given that, you're reaching out to markets. I mean, listeners at the beginning of this conversation, I clarified with Marc, how I should pronounce Wahl.

[00:10:40] Trisha: And it's not really how it would be pronounced in other parts of the world, but this is probably the Australian pronunciation of the corporation name. And so, you know, if you, if, if a name sounds different in different cultures, and in other languages, Then how much must marketing need to change to adapt to that as well.

[00:11:00] Trisha: And I was just speaking with, another CQ facilitator. Who's a colleague, Sarah Black. And she has an episode earlier on the podcast people. But she is also doing her own podcast at the moment, diving deeper into this. And she is. She comes from a comms background. So I was very much thinking about how an organization speaks to its people and to its clients.

[00:11:21] Trisha: And so you think about that and that CQ is so important in that area. And then you think about employee experience and engagement and all of those things. You're also responsible for learning and development in some ways. And so all of that is so important because you're dealing with the employees around the world who also have, very different perspectives on what it means to come to work for an organization.

I think about, making a lot of those shifts and, you know, , you said you were highly motivated, so we know you read a lot, we know you're always learning, , but what else did you do to help yourself as you're making those shifts around the world?

[00:11:58] Marc: Yeah, thank goodness for David Livermore. I mean, he's a, he's a friend and mentor to us. Right. And, I, I think I just naturally gravitated towards always wanting to learn and How can I better connect with, with our team members around the world? How can I be more effective in the communications?

[00:12:16] Marc: And ultimately more impactful , in the programs that we needed to do. And David's books really spoke to me when I first found them about, How to take what I naturally was discovering was something I was really, in tune with, the CQ model and apply that in my business practices. And, so I really dove headfirst into everything that, that he was putting out because all of a sudden the the things that were still, predominantly based in theory.

[00:12:44] Marc: , David was making practical and, and I think, he really helped make it something tangible for everybody to grab onto. So there was a lot of that with the shifts and I, and for me then it was. Constantly looking at how can I take those tools and apply them in my everyday work? So for me, that was probably the biggest thing I was doing in order to help navigate those shifts, between wherever I was working.

[00:13:11] Trisha: And, very successfully, I think, you know, you would have had colleagues who were friends around the world. You would have been meeting up with people. You would have been sharing ideas, but what were some of the challenges?

[00:13:21] Marc: I kind of put it here, you know, we can recognize it as a challenge, but for me, it was also a large part of fulfillment. And, I often felt like I was this Conduit, between, home office , and a subsidiary or between one subsidiary and another subsidiary. And, whether it was those internal connections or even external in how we were, communicating with our customers.

[00:13:41] Marc: But making those connections between individuals, making those connections between groups was Challenging at times, but also so rewarding. When I would see the aha moments in somebody else's eye or those moments of going, oh, they're thinking about this differently.

[00:14:01] Marc: And seeing them change their perspective, then as a result of that, that was always the most rewarding thing.

[00:14:07] Marc: So challenging at times in order to how do we build consensus? How do we have, a consistent sort of, program go out, for, to reach our business results. But, in doing so, how are we connecting with each other as people? And when I had a, small team of young professionals, that were working for me years ago.

[00:14:30] Marc: And we were traveling to one of our subsidiaries or a customer. I said, we're always going to build in a day for a cultural day. And I want you to experience. And one of the biggest things and my favorite things to do is to take people to grocery stores. I've done this with my employees. I've done this or my team members.

[00:14:47] Marc: I've done this with, my family and my, my kids often say, dad, not another grocery store. But I think there's so much to be learned from a grocery store. And especially when you work in a consumer products company, right? Where are things placed? What, how are people engaging with the products? You know, all those things.

[00:15:05] Marc: And, and so there would be those sort of moments that were just so rewarding to me then when I saw folks. Kind of click into what it's like for somebody in another part of the world.

[00:15:18] Trisha: And I remember going to a grocery store in the U. S. and going, So many breakfast cereals.

[00:15:25] Marc: Yes. Yeah. So many of everything.

[00:15:27] Trisha: Well, that too. Yeah. So many different types of toilet paper. I remember that coming back from

[00:15:33] Trisha: China, that I just felt that some of the things in the shops were just ridiculous. Um, this sense of, did we really need all this? Yeah.

[00:15:42] Marc: Right.

[00:15:43] Trisha: So, you moved into the global director, which we've spoken about that role. That's like an internal career shift and a number of the people that I've spoken to have, have gone through those shifts as well. And what was that like? You know, how did you manage that?

[00:15:58] Marc: Yeah. It was, the shift was just a shift from our customers and what we were doing external facing, right. To, to our employees. And the work was still constantly to bridge the gaps in understanding of perspective, right. Between our employees and from culturally different diverse backgrounds, but now also get, I also get to focus my attention on developing our talent through the organization. But all with that lens of cultural awareness. So when I bring in my leadership, when I, when I'm training the leadership development program, for example, I, often try and make it relevant, right? So I have some, I was mentioning to you earlier, I have some upcoming ones where I'm going to be with our team in Europe and.

[00:16:37] Marc: And I'm so excited to be taking everyone through a leadership model when you are, when I am going to have this very diverse perspective about even what leadership means right in the room and here again, to me, it's just that shift as you mentioned, Of instead of in this case of let's, for example, look at how are we taking this marketing program?

[00:17:00] Marc: How are we taking this product and putting it out globally and making sure that it fits in all of our global landscape to how are we now going to build this? this model of leadership in the whole global organization that we want everyone to follow, but make sure that all of our culturally diverse employees, can see themselves using it, can see themselves adopting it.

[00:17:24] Marc: And so it's, that's been the shift for me, right, of Of how are we taking, what is at our core as a business and putting out to the world to the, our customers versus how are we taking what we want to be core to our organizational culture and make sure that that's being reflected in, in our people.

[00:17:43] Trisha: And so not forcing people to become the ideal American manager, um, or, but making a model that fits with people around the world.

[00:17:55] Marc: Yeah. And I think the big shift for me too, Trisha has been, you know, when, when I was first, when I first found the CQ model, um, all those and, and to me it was, it became alive in the work I was doing as, as. working internationally, right? To me, the other shift has been, to now recognize that with all my work and my focus on our organizational culture, recognizing that the CQ model is still applicable.

[00:18:25] Marc: That the CQ model isn't just about international culture. And for me, for the longest time, that's just what it was because that's what I could relate to. And, and now because of my work on organizational culture and making sure that we just build the strongest organization we can around the world. I, and then also in my CQ fellow, being with all of you in the CQ fellows program, I was really, I guess I was really, my eyes were open to the fact that the model is, it can be applied to any cultural group, right?

[00:18:54] Marc: It doesn't have to be a country. It doesn't have to be, , it doesn't have to be your state. It doesn't have to be your company even, right? It can be, a gender or ethnic group. And you and I have talked a lot about, ethnic diversity even there in Australia, right? And, it's been so good for me to be kind of renewed and, and refreshed in how we can now take the CQ model, and apply it in any diverse group.

[00:19:20] Marc: And, and now in my work in the organization, I'm saying how can we use our cq, the CQ model as we talk about organizational culture? How can we do it as we talk about, this. Team in the organization versus this team in the organization. How do we bring your team dynamics closer together and understanding by even having, that motivation to understand, right?

[00:19:42] Marc: The, the knowledge to know how that team works, pulling in the strategy so that we can have action that's more productive, and so that's been, I think, one of the bigger shifts for me as well is how that model can even be applied.

[00:19:57] Trisha: I was speaking with Jennifer, one of our colleagues in a couple of episodes previously, and she shared that one of her big shifts was recognizing how the model applied to generations and how it applied to her and her daughter. And so I think, you know, when we look at generations, when we look at workplaces, we're seeing four or five generations together, which is, you know, not something that's happened previously.

[00:20:20] Trisha: And, again, like, different cultural, different ethnic cultures, there are similarities, there are differences, and we can't assume that somebody from another generation is going to act in a certain way. But there may be things that we need to learn about them, and there may be things we need to adapt to.

[00:20:37] Trisha: So, yeah, it's,

[00:20:38] Marc: For all of us with children, right? We, we recognize it's not the same as when we were children.

[00:20:43] Trisha: yep, that's right, life is different.

[00:20:46] Marc: Yes, for sure.

[00:20:47] Trisha: yeah, so there's, so there's always learning to be done. There's always people to, build bridges towards and yeah, to become part of our new, circle, if you like. I know as part of your work with CQ fellows, you've been working on a book. Slowly. Yes.

[00:21:03] Trisha: yeah, And I also know that you're also a college professor. So you've got lots of these things that you're doing as well as being the global director.

[00:21:13] Marc: Working full time.

[00:21:15] Trisha: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, you know, how are things going with all of that?

[00:21:19] Marc: So I've been an adjunct for, for a long time, and, it's rewarding to stay a bit connected to, academia, after I spent so long in academia myself and, and doing that all on the side of my, regular everyday job. And so one of my favorite things is to teach is strategic management.

[00:21:36] Marc: So I've done some international business. And as I've mentioned in the past, one of my favorite things is to use case study in, in strategic management. I think there's so much to learn from examples and being a marketing guy, I'm very visual, right? So. It's always good to see those examples of how others have done things and build that bit of a template.

[00:21:55] Marc: So, yep, I, I did start a book, , in 2023 when we were first in our CQ Fellows program and, and I was all excited and gung ho for it and, I hit a little bit of a stall though this year. So I've, I've got about 50 percent written. And I really started to question some of it. I've had some really good opportunities to, to chat with some fellow CQ fellows, and kind of bounce some ideas around and I have some new clarity.

[00:22:21] Marc: So I'm hopeful to get back at it and, with a renewed sense of how we might use a bit of my Love of a case study and bring that into the book on how we can take and use the human experience and all these pieces of engagement that we have with one another. And, those times where not just about business, or it's not just about the university life, or it's not just about, you know, results at the end of the day.

[00:22:53] Marc: I've always been fascinated with how we as, we just connect with other people. And, that's really going to be the focus of the book, of, of how we take those real human experiences and look at them almost as a case study. And, Recognize, how we might apply the CQ model in these everyday human interactions.

[00:23:14] Marc: I think all of us are on this journey, right, to create a more culturally intelligent world. And, I joke oftentimes that, you know, if someone were to ask me, like, what I want for the world. You know, I'm kind of like that pageant contestant who says, Oh, I want world peace. And, there is a part of me deep down that does want world peace. Right. But, to do so, I think it really takes. all of us having the courage to recognize that not everything's the same, and that it's okay to question and wonder and to ask why, and to, engage with each other and, , to be motivated to, to just seek out some clarity and some understanding before rushing to judgments.

[00:24:00] Trisha: . I love that. Yeah. It is so real and true. Fantastic. So Marc, if people who are listening to this want to connect with you and want to follow up with you, how is it best to do that?

[00:24:11] Marc: LinkedIn is always a good spot.

[00:24:12] Trisha: Okay

[00:24:13] Marc: I can be found on LinkedIn as Marc Geil.

[00:24:16] Trisha: And when you eventually publish that book, I'm sure we'll, we'll hear about it from that spot. And also don't worry, listeners, I will let you know as well.

[00:24:24] Marc: Thank you so much.

[00:24:25] Trisha: so for our final questions, Marc, what advice would you give someone who's going to follow in your footsteps?

[00:24:33] Marc: Oh, wow. Um, every day is a gift,

[00:24:36] Trisha: Every, I love that.

[00:24:37] Marc: right? And whether you are traversing the globe to make the next business deal or, working with a colleague virtually, because so we do so much of that today. You know, separated by distance or maybe meeting a friend at a local coffee shop, right? There exists within each of us, I think, an opportunity to shift our perspective and recognize that we all carry with us experiences and knowledge that's unique to our cultural identity.

[00:25:03] Marc: In my opinion, as members of shared collective called humanity. We have the shared obligation to seek deeper connectedness to one another and to, to seek an understanding of each other.

[00:25:17] Trisha: Mm.

[00:25:17] Marc: I think it takes real intentional acts to recognize, our neighbor and to seek knowledge and offer a hand, say hello, open that door to building a more collectively and culturally intelligent world.

[00:25:30] Trisha: I love that. Thank you. That is great. And as you look at your life, the people you've worked with, colleagues, clients, and your family and community, as you look at the future, what are you hoping for, Marc?

[00:25:43] Marc: I hope that someday looking back at my life, I'll have done my little part to bring people closer together, to be that bridge in building deeper understanding and helping everyone, myself included, to recognize that we all come from different places, that we all hold unique values and cultural identities. And that there's much more that lies beyond the surface. , we need only activate that CQ, knowledge or CQ to ride the wave of exploration and, and together, you know, just, just build a better place.

[00:26:15] Marc: Thank

[00:26:16] Trisha: you.

[00:26:16] Marc: Thank you.

[00:26:17] Trisha: That is very encouraging.

[00:26:19] Marc: Thank you for the work you're doing to spread the word.

[00:26:23] Trisha: Thanks. And thank you listeners for joining us on this, on this journey and exploration. And we hope that you will push that follow button so that you can listen to the next episode of The Shift.

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