1 00:00:08,430 --> 00:00:12,330 Welcome to the eCommerce podcast with me, your host, Matt Edmundson, 2 00:00:12,690 --> 00:00:17,560 the eCommerce podcast is all about helping you deliver eCommerce. 3 00:00:17,820 --> 00:00:18,090 Wow. 4 00:00:18,990 --> 00:00:24,680 Now I am super excited with today's guest, who is Daniel Budai from Budai Media. 5 00:00:25,020 --> 00:00:28,650 And we are gonna be talking about the secrets to retaining 6 00:00:28,650 --> 00:00:31,470 customers with email marketing. 7 00:00:31,950 --> 00:00:36,810 But before we jump into that, let me suggest a few, the eCommerce 8 00:00:36,815 --> 00:00:40,800 podcast episodes to listen to that are also gonna hit. 9 00:00:41,055 --> 00:00:47,835 This amazing topic of email marketing, try Gabrielle Rapone's, why everything you 10 00:00:47,835 --> 00:00:50,595 know about email marketing can be wrong. 11 00:00:50,625 --> 00:00:53,955 That was a great conversation with Gabby, uh, and another one, 12 00:00:53,955 --> 00:00:58,965 my, fantastic conversation with Jessica Totillo uh, about how to 13 00:00:58,965 --> 00:01:04,995 convince customers to buy from you instead of your competition. 14 00:01:05,444 --> 00:01:09,195 Now, this episode is brought to you by the eCommerce Cohort. 15 00:01:09,990 --> 00:01:14,130 which helps you to deliver eCommerce Wow to your customers? 16 00:01:14,310 --> 00:01:15,149 Yes, it does. 17 00:01:15,539 --> 00:01:15,720 Now. 18 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,020 I'm sure you've come across a bunch of folks stuck with their eCommerce 19 00:01:19,020 --> 00:01:24,119 business, or they've got siloed into working on just one or two 20 00:01:24,179 --> 00:01:26,310 areas of their business and miss. 21 00:01:26,530 --> 00:01:32,470 The big picture, well, enter the eCommerce cohort to solve this particular problem. 22 00:01:32,979 --> 00:01:36,550 Uh, the eCommerce cohort is a lightweight membership group with 23 00:01:36,550 --> 00:01:42,190 guided monthly sprints, that cycle through all the key areas of eCommerce. 24 00:01:42,490 --> 00:01:45,640 The sole purpose of cohort is to provide you with clear, 25 00:01:45,669 --> 00:01:47,350 actionable jobs to be done. 26 00:01:47,590 --> 00:01:52,895 So you'll know what to work on and get the support you need to get done. 27 00:01:52,895 --> 00:01:56,914 So whether you are just starting out an eCommerce or if like me, you're, 28 00:01:57,425 --> 00:02:02,405 you're a bit of a dinosaur or maybe a more professional way to say that is 29 00:02:02,405 --> 00:02:07,714 a more well established eCommerce then can I encourage you to check it out at 30 00:02:07,744 --> 00:02:15,109 eCommercecohort.com uh, it is gearing up for its founding member launch. 31 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:20,900 So you're gonna want to get in early doors and get these fantastic rates. 32 00:02:20,900 --> 00:02:22,609 I mean, the cohort is gonna be fantastic. 33 00:02:22,609 --> 00:02:26,450 You are definitely, if you are involved in e-commerce, uh, at all in any 34 00:02:26,450 --> 00:02:30,019 way, you should check out e-commerce cohort, you're gonna learn loads. 35 00:02:30,025 --> 00:02:32,960 You're gonna meet great people, et cetera, etcetera. 36 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:33,600 And it's all online. 37 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:34,925 It's an absolute doddle. 38 00:02:35,145 --> 00:02:35,655 Yes, it is. 39 00:02:35,895 --> 00:02:38,255 Uh, but if you've got any questions, email me directly at 40 00:02:38,255 --> 00:02:42,675 matt@ecommercepodcast.net, uh, because let me tell you it's, it's awesome. 41 00:02:43,455 --> 00:02:47,535 Now all of that said, and without further ado, let's jump into this. 42 00:02:47,540 --> 00:02:50,085 Here is my conversation with Daniel. 43 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,880 Well, I am here with the amazing Daniel Budai. 44 00:02:54,930 --> 00:02:58,109 Daniel always has a knack for business. 45 00:02:58,109 --> 00:02:58,950 He's always had it. 46 00:02:58,954 --> 00:03:03,959 It's it's always been there, but it wasn't until he started learning about marketing 47 00:03:03,959 --> 00:03:06,329 and eCommerce that he truly found. 48 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:11,290 His calling now as a former geology student, can you believe it? 49 00:03:11,290 --> 00:03:11,620 Right? 50 00:03:11,890 --> 00:03:17,140 Uh, he never would've guessed that he would've ended up owning a seven figure 51 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,920 marketing agency, Budai Media now, Daniel 52 00:03:21,765 --> 00:03:26,625 realized early on that most e-commerce business professionals lacked the skills 53 00:03:26,625 --> 00:03:28,605 to implement emails professionally. 54 00:03:29,145 --> 00:03:30,165 Can I get an amen? 55 00:03:30,195 --> 00:03:32,235 We all know what he's talking about, right? 56 00:03:32,295 --> 00:03:35,955 And that's why he founded his agency Budai Media with the sole purpose 57 00:03:36,580 --> 00:03:40,690 of helping eCommerce brands build strong relationships with customers. 58 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,530 So these days Daniel spends most of his time drinking 59 00:03:44,590 --> 00:03:48,790 Americanos , which I, I don't do. 60 00:03:48,910 --> 00:03:51,550 I'm not gonna lie, uh, and running Budai Media. 61 00:03:51,820 --> 00:03:56,114 Uh, but when he is not working, you can find him playing, guess what of 62 00:03:56,114 --> 00:03:59,745 all sports, basketball and spending time with his wife and two kids. 63 00:03:59,745 --> 00:04:04,935 He is a family man, but he also loves his coffee as well 64 00:04:04,935 --> 00:04:06,345 as traveling around the globe. 65 00:04:06,350 --> 00:04:06,765 Daniel. 66 00:04:06,765 --> 00:04:07,965 Great to have you on the show. 67 00:04:07,970 --> 00:04:08,924 Thanks for joining us. 68 00:04:08,930 --> 00:04:09,405 Great that you are 69 00:04:09,405 --> 00:04:09,795 here. 70 00:04:11,430 --> 00:04:12,870 Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. 71 00:04:12,870 --> 00:04:17,100 And I love the introduction and I love the energy that you really, 72 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:18,540 you know, everyone can feel. 73 00:04:18,540 --> 00:04:20,040 So, yeah, I'm really happy to be here. 74 00:04:20,220 --> 00:04:20,579 Oh, good. 75 00:04:20,579 --> 00:04:21,180 Thanks man. 76 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,600 Yeah, I, I, uh, I dunno what I'd be like if I drank 77 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:30,150 coffee, maybe it's be a bit too much for the world to handle. 78 00:04:30,510 --> 00:04:31,710 So where are you? 79 00:04:31,710 --> 00:04:32,550 Whereabouts in the world? 80 00:04:32,550 --> 00:04:32,850 Are you. 81 00:04:34,155 --> 00:04:38,505 so at the moment I'm in, uh, Hungary, Budapest mm-hmm . And since COVID, you 82 00:04:38,505 --> 00:04:44,115 know, in the last two years, I was mostly here before I traveled a lot in the US 83 00:04:44,355 --> 00:04:49,625 and, uh, in Asia and actually I'm planning to move to Poland for one month because 84 00:04:49,965 --> 00:04:52,245 I'm really interested in their culture. 85 00:04:52,245 --> 00:04:57,165 And, um, yeah, I just want to see Krakow, Warsaw and those cities. 86 00:04:57,165 --> 00:04:59,025 So that's my next plan this summer. 87 00:04:59,145 --> 00:04:59,475 Oh, wow. 88 00:04:59,595 --> 00:04:59,775 So 89 00:04:59,775 --> 00:05:01,605 you, you do like to travel, you do like to get. 90 00:05:03,165 --> 00:05:08,295 um, I would say I'm not like a, you know, crazy digital nomad mm-hmm when 91 00:05:08,295 --> 00:05:11,025 I stopped being the geologist guy. 92 00:05:11,025 --> 00:05:15,075 As you said, when I finished the university, I had around half a year 93 00:05:15,075 --> 00:05:18,915 when I traveled like crazy, you know, every week I moved to a different 94 00:05:18,915 --> 00:05:21,825 place, but I realized after six months 95 00:05:22,425 --> 00:05:24,615 it's really hard to focus on your business. 96 00:05:24,620 --> 00:05:24,955 Yeah. 97 00:05:25,035 --> 00:05:28,485 And of course you don't have to, if you don't want to do it, but 98 00:05:28,515 --> 00:05:30,165 I wanted to scale this business. 99 00:05:30,165 --> 00:05:36,675 And nowadays I spend at least three, four months in one city in the last 100 00:05:36,675 --> 00:05:38,155 two years, actually here in Budapest. 101 00:05:38,805 --> 00:05:42,345 And, uh, yeah, but I still like traveling I'm and I'm 102 00:05:42,345 --> 00:05:43,815 planning to do it in the future. 103 00:05:43,905 --> 00:05:44,145 Yeah. 104 00:05:44,235 --> 00:05:44,895 Very good. 105 00:05:45,015 --> 00:05:45,555 Very good. 106 00:05:45,855 --> 00:05:49,665 So how did you go from being a geologist to a email expert? 107 00:05:49,670 --> 00:05:50,565 What was that journey? 108 00:05:50,595 --> 00:05:53,085 Cuz that's not, that's not standard textbook, is it? 109 00:05:53,085 --> 00:05:56,745 It's not written in any sort of career progress manual that I've come across! 110 00:05:57,535 --> 00:05:58,025 Yeah. 111 00:05:58,030 --> 00:05:58,185 Yeah. 112 00:05:58,185 --> 00:06:01,725 So I also have my podcast, the e-comm show, and I always ask 113 00:06:01,725 --> 00:06:03,315 these questions from the guests. 114 00:06:04,169 --> 00:06:08,789 From older guests, because I can hear so many interesting stories and here's mine. 115 00:06:08,789 --> 00:06:13,680 So I studied geology and earth sciences here in Budapest, in 116 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,599 Hungary for almost six years. 117 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:17,940 And I finished my Master. 118 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:23,220 And back then, around 2016, the oil prices dropped mm-hmm and 119 00:06:23,220 --> 00:06:24,630 quite the opposite then now. 120 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:28,470 And, uh, it was really hard to find a job with geology and 121 00:06:28,475 --> 00:06:30,060 find a job in the oil industry. 122 00:06:30,065 --> 00:06:30,990 So, okay. 123 00:06:30,990 --> 00:06:37,860 I was like, let's try to, you know, make some money and let's enjoy what I do. 124 00:06:38,220 --> 00:06:44,730 Um, so actually my first job after university was a call center job. 125 00:06:44,730 --> 00:06:49,409 I was a customer support agent and I oh, wow, really hated that work, you know? 126 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:49,560 Yeah. 127 00:06:50,100 --> 00:06:55,290 So I spent there seven months, but at the same time, in my spare time, I, 128 00:06:55,290 --> 00:07:01,409 uh, started learning copywriting and I got a few small clients through Upwork. 129 00:07:01,710 --> 00:07:03,270 This is how I started out. 130 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:09,375 And then I was lucky enough to quit my job after seven months and I 131 00:07:09,375 --> 00:07:11,325 could get bigger and bigger projects. 132 00:07:11,325 --> 00:07:16,305 And at some point I realized that copywriting is fun. 133 00:07:16,310 --> 00:07:17,265 I really like it. 134 00:07:17,270 --> 00:07:21,645 I think it's the core of marketing and understanding psychology and, you 135 00:07:21,645 --> 00:07:27,104 know, marketing, but ultimately just not for me, I prefer building a team 136 00:07:27,135 --> 00:07:30,465 or, uh, thinking about strategy also. 137 00:07:30,465 --> 00:07:32,505 I'm not a natively speaker, so. 138 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,560 You know, it would take a lot of my time to pick up all of those skills. 139 00:07:38,130 --> 00:07:43,350 And I just decided to hire copywriters and I started delegating the job and 140 00:07:43,350 --> 00:07:45,960 focusing on sales and managing my people. 141 00:07:45,965 --> 00:07:52,410 Mm-hmm and then I think this was around 2017 and what I also realized 142 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:57,765 is, what if instead of just copywriting, we create the whole strategy. 143 00:07:57,765 --> 00:08:00,465 We build the whole strategy for businesses. 144 00:08:00,465 --> 00:08:07,155 Mm-hmm . At the same time, I got contacted with a really big eCommerce business. 145 00:08:07,605 --> 00:08:11,385 It, I think, I think nowadays it's a mid eight figure eCommerce business. 146 00:08:11,805 --> 00:08:13,985 And back then it was huge for me. 147 00:08:14,595 --> 00:08:21,135 And we started working together and just naturally I started, you know, 148 00:08:21,725 --> 00:08:23,775 emerging into eCommerce more and more. 149 00:08:24,525 --> 00:08:28,695 And yeah, I, I, you know, after like one, two years, I could see 150 00:08:28,695 --> 00:08:30,315 that, okay, I can hire people. 151 00:08:30,315 --> 00:08:31,455 I can manage them. 152 00:08:31,815 --> 00:08:36,585 Um, eCommerce is fun and it's a really profitable business 153 00:08:36,585 --> 00:08:38,775 for, for everyone basically. 154 00:08:39,705 --> 00:08:41,835 Uh, you, you know, you can scale it quickly. 155 00:08:42,330 --> 00:08:43,650 If you have the right people. 156 00:08:43,650 --> 00:08:47,130 So just naturally I niche down into eCommerce. 157 00:08:47,250 --> 00:08:51,330 I hired 26 people in like two years. 158 00:08:51,390 --> 00:08:51,720 Oh, wow. 159 00:08:51,990 --> 00:08:59,590 And by 2020, I think we had almost 25 people, few people left and 160 00:09:00,570 --> 00:09:04,800 yeah, now we are actually, at some point we had more than 30 people. 161 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:12,225 Now we scaled a bit back to 26 mm-hmm and 25 clients around 25 clients. 162 00:09:12,225 --> 00:09:13,515 And that's where we are now. 163 00:09:13,515 --> 00:09:14,685 So fantastic. 164 00:09:14,685 --> 00:09:19,155 Still, e-commerce not just email marketing, but retention, marketing. 165 00:09:19,155 --> 00:09:23,775 So we help clients with loyalty programs, SMS marketing, 166 00:09:24,315 --> 00:09:27,045 even physical mail sometimes. 167 00:09:27,050 --> 00:09:28,635 So that's what we do nowadays. 168 00:09:28,765 --> 00:09:28,965 Yeah. 169 00:09:28,965 --> 00:09:29,125 Yeah. 170 00:09:29,385 --> 00:09:29,985 Fantastic. 171 00:09:30,255 --> 00:09:31,365 Well, I, I. 172 00:09:32,220 --> 00:09:36,540 That's quite coincidental because the two topics we are gonna be talking about 173 00:09:36,540 --> 00:09:41,220 today, uh, we're gonna get deep dive into this, um, retention marketing. 174 00:09:41,220 --> 00:09:44,580 I think the title of the podcast this week is the secrets of retaining 175 00:09:44,580 --> 00:09:46,020 customers with email marketing. 176 00:09:46,025 --> 00:09:47,280 So we're gonna get into all of that. 177 00:09:47,700 --> 00:09:56,220 I also want to grill you a little bit, uh, um, Daniel, about how, you know, uh, 178 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,400 how you grew your business and the lessons that you've learned, I guess, in that. 179 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:04,439 Um, because I think scaling rapidly scaling is something that I think a 180 00:10:04,439 --> 00:10:07,589 lot of our listeners are gonna, you know, if they're in eCommerce and 181 00:10:07,589 --> 00:10:10,229 their business rapidly grows, I think there's some something to learn there. 182 00:10:10,229 --> 00:10:14,040 So we're gonna get into that, but first let's get into this whole, uh, 183 00:10:14,069 --> 00:10:16,770 retention, uh, retaining customers. 184 00:10:16,775 --> 00:10:19,260 So you talked about doing that with email, with SMS. 185 00:10:19,890 --> 00:10:25,180 Um, is that something then that you've evolved into over the years. 186 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:29,145 Um, that your agency has been growing, that you've sort of got more and more 187 00:10:29,145 --> 00:10:32,474 into this whole retention, uh, specialty. 188 00:10:33,584 --> 00:10:34,155 Definitely. 189 00:10:34,155 --> 00:10:37,964 So at the beginning I started with email copywriting mm-hmm and for 190 00:10:37,964 --> 00:10:40,214 mostly for eCommerce businesses. 191 00:10:40,905 --> 00:10:45,584 And then, uh, what I also realized is that, okay, email is, is a great 192 00:10:45,584 --> 00:10:50,985 marketing channel, but what if we go maybe one level higher and we think a bit 193 00:10:50,985 --> 00:10:52,785 more holistically about the eCommerce. 194 00:10:54,150 --> 00:11:00,285 and that's why we started doing, uh, SMS marketing messenger marketing. 195 00:11:00,315 --> 00:11:04,935 And I think the logic behind those channels is really similar to email 196 00:11:04,995 --> 00:11:11,385 mm-hmm and direct response marketing ultimately, and also loyalty programs. 197 00:11:11,385 --> 00:11:13,995 So we focus on retaining the customers. 198 00:11:14,955 --> 00:11:19,695 And also we just recently we started measuring metrics such as 199 00:11:19,695 --> 00:11:21,975 average time between two orders. 200 00:11:22,980 --> 00:11:29,130 Customer lifetime value, historic lifetime value, and future certain 201 00:11:29,130 --> 00:11:30,780 tools can help you with this. 202 00:11:31,260 --> 00:11:35,520 Um, for example, Klayvio and really measuring these metrics 203 00:11:35,550 --> 00:11:37,380 and reporting to the businesses. 204 00:11:37,385 --> 00:11:42,720 So they will know how much they can spend on ads on the front 205 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,240 end side to acquire one customer. 206 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:45,690 Yeah. 207 00:11:45,695 --> 00:11:45,810 Yeah. 208 00:11:46,420 --> 00:11:46,490 Yeah. 209 00:11:46,490 --> 00:11:51,795 And I think, especially small e-commerce businesses, they ignore these numbers 210 00:11:52,095 --> 00:11:55,875 and they don't have this mindset and that's where we come in place 211 00:11:55,875 --> 00:11:57,465 and we can educate them and help 212 00:11:57,465 --> 00:11:57,645 them. 213 00:11:58,275 --> 00:12:01,695 So the customer lifetime value, the historic lifetime value. 214 00:12:01,695 --> 00:12:08,070 And another one you mentioned there was the average time between transactions. 215 00:12:08,190 --> 00:12:11,760 Um, mm-hmm and, uh, different people call this different things, don't they? 216 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,300 But one of the things that interests me about this is, um, this is 217 00:12:15,300 --> 00:12:18,900 one of those metrics that I think has been hidden for a while. 218 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,900 Uh, people have not really talked about the average time 219 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:24,000 between transaction that much. 220 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:29,500 Uh, but if you're in a business that, that thrives on repeat customers, 221 00:12:30,870 --> 00:12:33,660 Yeah, which fundamentally is a great eCommerce business to be in 222 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,680 then tracking this metric, I think, starts to become quite important. 223 00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:39,630 What is the average time between transactions? 224 00:12:39,990 --> 00:12:41,070 What have you noticed? 225 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:45,720 Um, or what insights have you gained, I guess from just looking at that single 226 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,900 metric, what does it tell us when we, when we do start to measure it? 227 00:12:48,905 --> 00:12:48,990 Hmm. 228 00:12:50,020 --> 00:12:50,510 Yeah. 229 00:12:50,550 --> 00:12:54,690 So, as I said, we are still in the early phases, but just yesterday we had a 230 00:12:54,690 --> 00:12:56,820 call with our account management team. 231 00:12:57,375 --> 00:13:00,165 They ask the same question, like, okay, Danielle, we are measuring 232 00:13:00,165 --> 00:13:02,985 it, but why, how should we use it? 233 00:13:03,015 --> 00:13:07,215 I think one guy asked this in the team because you know, reporting is, 234 00:13:07,220 --> 00:13:11,625 is good and, you know, sometimes we can have a big ego on numbers like 235 00:13:11,805 --> 00:13:15,855 I'm able to measure this pretty cool, but why should we measure this? 236 00:13:15,885 --> 00:13:16,125 Yeah. 237 00:13:16,575 --> 00:13:19,725 Um, what decisions can we make based on these numbers? 238 00:13:19,725 --> 00:13:21,075 That's the ultimate question. 239 00:13:21,075 --> 00:13:23,555 And we went through these numbers. 240 00:13:23,775 --> 00:13:28,890 I think customer lifetime value is crucial to know how much you 241 00:13:28,895 --> 00:13:31,530 can spend on your, on traffic. 242 00:13:32,100 --> 00:13:33,990 Sorry, customer acquisition. 243 00:13:34,020 --> 00:13:34,200 Yeah. 244 00:13:34,890 --> 00:13:39,870 I think the prime example is Starbucks where one coffee is, I don't know, 245 00:13:39,870 --> 00:13:44,970 four, $5, something like that, but there customer lifetime value 246 00:13:44,970 --> 00:13:51,870 is more than $10,000 so, Wow, I did not know that that's insane. 247 00:13:51,870 --> 00:13:53,850 I think that's a prime example and. 248 00:13:54,645 --> 00:13:59,505 I think that, um, returning customer rate is, you know, close 249 00:13:59,505 --> 00:14:05,595 to 100%, like 90%, or once you go to Starbucks, you will come back. 250 00:14:05,805 --> 00:14:10,095 Even if you hate Starbucks, because sometimes you just need a coffee quickly. 251 00:14:10,095 --> 00:14:16,905 So, um, you know, but, um, I would say if it's an extreme 252 00:14:16,905 --> 00:14:21,255 example, but AOV is like $4, $5. 253 00:14:21,255 --> 00:14:25,364 Lifetime value is $10,000 and Starbucks really knows this. 254 00:14:25,369 --> 00:14:30,675 So they know that they can spend one, two K to acquire one customer. 255 00:14:30,675 --> 00:14:33,425 That's totally fine because they will get this money back later. 256 00:14:33,545 --> 00:14:37,334 Mm-hmm so I think that's the ultimate example. 257 00:14:37,740 --> 00:14:42,930 And, uh, I think most people, they would be happy to have a brand like Starbucks, 258 00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:46,140 um, smaller businesses, smaller brands 259 00:14:46,140 --> 00:14:50,430 they don't have this huge difference between the AOV and the lifetime value. 260 00:14:50,430 --> 00:14:53,949 Mm-hmm but still, uh, let's say your AOV is 20 bucks. 261 00:14:54,900 --> 00:15:00,480 Your lifetime value is $100, then that's five times more and you become 262 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,390 more confident to spend more on ads. 263 00:15:03,449 --> 00:15:03,750 Yeah, 264 00:15:04,530 --> 00:15:06,270 customer, let me just clarify. 265 00:15:06,270 --> 00:15:10,350 Actually, if you're listening to the podcast and you're like, what is AOV? 266 00:15:10,350 --> 00:15:14,310 If you're new to eCommerce, AOV just stands for average order value. 267 00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:17,490 That's the amount that an average person typically spends 268 00:15:17,490 --> 00:15:18,990 when they're on your website. 269 00:15:18,990 --> 00:15:21,210 So, um, sorry to interject there. 270 00:15:21,210 --> 00:15:22,980 Daniel, just clarifying terminology. 271 00:15:24,390 --> 00:15:25,590 I think it's important. 272 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:26,310 Yeah. 273 00:15:26,940 --> 00:15:28,560 Um, yeah. 274 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,460 So that's lifetime value and then average days between orders. 275 00:15:32,940 --> 00:15:36,690 I think it's really interesting to see different segments, 276 00:15:36,695 --> 00:15:38,430 especially on an email list. 277 00:15:38,940 --> 00:15:48,270 For example, I think yesterday we checked the US pet brands, um, and the whole 278 00:15:48,270 --> 00:15:51,120 list they had something like 200 days. 279 00:15:52,065 --> 00:15:55,815 Between two orders on the average, the whole email list, which was 280 00:15:55,815 --> 00:15:58,395 more than two hun 200,000 people. 281 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:03,135 Mm-hmm but the VIP list, which was only a few thousand people, 282 00:16:03,375 --> 00:16:08,055 the average days between two orders, it was like 15, 20 days. 283 00:16:08,085 --> 00:16:08,175 Yeah. 284 00:16:08,175 --> 00:16:14,055 Which is 10 times different and that's, you know, huge difference. 285 00:16:14,055 --> 00:16:18,105 And, uh, if the business really needs money quickly, then they 286 00:16:18,105 --> 00:16:19,815 should target the VIPs first. 287 00:16:19,815 --> 00:16:19,935 Yeah. 288 00:16:21,075 --> 00:16:23,235 They buy really frequently. 289 00:16:23,295 --> 00:16:23,745 So yeah, 290 00:16:24,015 --> 00:16:24,795 no, that's very true. 291 00:16:25,065 --> 00:16:27,905 And actually, I think it informs your marketing efforts. 292 00:16:27,905 --> 00:16:32,055 Not just that, I mean, I I understand that customer lifetime value helps 293 00:16:32,055 --> 00:16:36,975 inform how much I can spend on customer acquisition or CAC, the cost 294 00:16:36,980 --> 00:16:38,085 of customer acquisition, isn't it. 295 00:16:38,355 --> 00:16:39,585 Or customer acquisition costs. 296 00:16:39,945 --> 00:16:42,885 Uh, if you're new to e-commerce, you'll find there's a lot of three letter, three 297 00:16:42,890 --> 00:16:44,805 letter acronym, just all over the place. 298 00:16:44,805 --> 00:16:46,575 We just like to use them all over the place. 299 00:16:47,205 --> 00:16:50,805 Um, and CAC is probably my favorite one, given what it means here in the UK. 300 00:16:51,285 --> 00:16:56,265 Um, but, um, but yeah, you, you know, you've got these sort of these, 301 00:16:56,270 --> 00:16:57,555 these metrics over here, but this. 302 00:16:58,665 --> 00:17:03,314 Uh, days between transactions, I think is a really interesting metric from a 303 00:17:03,314 --> 00:17:08,054 marketing point of view, because actually, if you go, if you're a business and you're 304 00:17:08,054 --> 00:17:12,075 saying, well, typically it takes 200 days to get someone to buy a second order. 305 00:17:12,855 --> 00:17:15,585 What can I do to get that to be 190 days? 306 00:17:15,615 --> 00:17:17,984 What can I do to get that to be 180 days? 307 00:17:18,435 --> 00:17:21,794 Um, because you're selling to existing customers and you're trying to increase 308 00:17:21,794 --> 00:17:24,464 the frequency, uh, at which they buy. 309 00:17:24,464 --> 00:17:27,825 And I remember, I remember sitting down in a meeting. 310 00:17:28,815 --> 00:17:32,895 Well, I was in a conference led by the copyright genius 311 00:17:32,895 --> 00:17:34,784 actually, uh, called Jay Abrams. 312 00:17:34,784 --> 00:17:35,835 This was a long time ago. 313 00:17:35,835 --> 00:17:39,014 This was maybe 30, 40 year, not 40 years ago. 314 00:17:39,020 --> 00:17:39,585 I'm not that old. 315 00:17:39,585 --> 00:17:39,885 Geez. 316 00:17:40,365 --> 00:17:41,925 Um, but it was 30. 317 00:17:41,930 --> 00:17:43,065 This was 30 years ago. 318 00:17:43,245 --> 00:17:43,455 Right. 319 00:17:43,455 --> 00:17:47,355 And I'm setting in this conference and he said, there's only three ways that 320 00:17:47,355 --> 00:17:51,105 you can grow your business and it's always stuck with me said, number one, 321 00:17:51,105 --> 00:17:54,705 you can increase the amount of customers that you have customer acquisition. 322 00:17:54,735 --> 00:17:59,325 We like to call it now, number two, you can increase the amount each customer 323 00:17:59,325 --> 00:18:01,635 buys from you, average order value. 324 00:18:02,115 --> 00:18:06,375 And number three, you can increase the frequency with which they buy from you. 325 00:18:06,375 --> 00:18:10,335 As in, you know, you can increase the, uh, you can reduce your 200 326 00:18:10,335 --> 00:18:12,285 days down to the 10, 12 days. 327 00:18:12,285 --> 00:18:12,795 And I think. 328 00:18:14,445 --> 00:18:17,745 it's for me, it's one of those untapped marketing potentials. 329 00:18:17,745 --> 00:18:21,555 Isn't it just to look at that number and segment customers and go, well, these 330 00:18:21,555 --> 00:18:25,815 guys order between 10 and 20 days, but these guys order between 50 and a hundred 331 00:18:25,820 --> 00:18:29,595 days, what, what do I need to do to get them to be within the 10, 20 days guys? 332 00:18:29,805 --> 00:18:33,315 And thinking about that, I think is a really interesting idea. 333 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,685 And it opens up some really interesting opportunities. 334 00:18:35,685 --> 00:18:37,155 Is that what you guys were doing yesterday? 335 00:18:38,955 --> 00:18:45,495 um, yeah, so actually let's introduce one more, uh, acronym, which is, uh, RFM. 336 00:18:45,585 --> 00:18:45,885 Yeah. 337 00:18:46,455 --> 00:18:49,605 Because you just, I think you just talk about it, like, uh, 338 00:18:49,665 --> 00:18:52,335 recency frequency and monetary. 339 00:18:52,335 --> 00:18:52,395 Yeah. 340 00:18:53,625 --> 00:18:54,405 These three. 341 00:18:54,465 --> 00:18:54,735 Yeah. 342 00:18:54,785 --> 00:18:56,775 And I think that's huge. 343 00:18:56,775 --> 00:19:02,715 It's really powerful, but I talked to a few industry experts on this and 344 00:19:04,170 --> 00:19:08,879 I think it's useful about 100, 200,000 subscribers. 345 00:19:08,879 --> 00:19:15,570 So if you have a big list and smaller brands, I think they don't need this kind. 346 00:19:15,570 --> 00:19:17,070 I, I, the mindset is good. 347 00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:17,790 Definitely. 348 00:19:17,790 --> 00:19:20,190 They should think about it, but they shouldn't measure 349 00:19:20,190 --> 00:19:22,170 it too, too much, you know? 350 00:19:22,530 --> 00:19:26,879 Um, it's just enough to know the lifetime value or start calculating 351 00:19:26,879 --> 00:19:29,100 that maybe average days between orders. 352 00:19:29,129 --> 00:19:29,340 Yeah. 353 00:19:29,550 --> 00:19:30,780 But I think that's enough. 354 00:19:31,020 --> 00:19:35,700 And once they get to you know, higher level, let's say they have 355 00:19:35,850 --> 00:19:40,740 multiple hundreds of thousands of subscribers, even millions., Then they 356 00:19:40,740 --> 00:19:43,440 definitely need this RFM segmentation. 357 00:19:43,530 --> 00:19:49,020 That's you just mentioned, I know tools that can measure it quite well, and 358 00:19:49,020 --> 00:19:54,840 they can segment the customers based on this, like people who buy not frequently 359 00:19:54,840 --> 00:20:00,780 once a year, but then they buy, I don't know, $1,000 worth of product. 360 00:20:01,365 --> 00:20:03,525 Which is a high number for most stores. 361 00:20:03,675 --> 00:20:10,125 So, or, or people who buy frequently, but low value or maybe the window shopper. 362 00:20:10,125 --> 00:20:13,095 So you can create a lot of segments. 363 00:20:13,605 --> 00:20:18,345 But the other side of the equation is don't over complicate things. 364 00:20:18,705 --> 00:20:19,185 and, uh, 365 00:20:19,225 --> 00:20:21,225 which we have a tendency to do. 366 00:20:21,225 --> 00:20:21,525 I, 367 00:20:21,525 --> 00:20:22,635 I, I have to exactly. 368 00:20:24,285 --> 00:20:29,565 I know because we tried it with a few clients, this RFM segmentation, and I 369 00:20:29,565 --> 00:20:31,845 could see it's just too early for them. 370 00:20:32,295 --> 00:20:37,995 So yeah, we, we tried to still, you know, keep things simple. 371 00:20:37,995 --> 00:20:38,415 Mm-hmm so. 372 00:20:39,330 --> 00:20:40,980 That's my 2 cents on this. 373 00:20:41,310 --> 00:20:41,910 No, it's good. 374 00:20:41,910 --> 00:20:43,380 I mean, I, I have to be honest with you. 375 00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:45,630 We use RFM segmentation with our customers. 376 00:20:45,660 --> 00:20:48,150 Mm-hmm um, on our eCommerce websites. 377 00:20:48,150 --> 00:20:51,540 And I think it's really insightful, uh, the information it gives you, but we, 378 00:20:51,540 --> 00:20:55,560 we have a lot of customers and we can, you know, we can extract some meaningful 379 00:20:55,565 --> 00:21:01,110 data, but I, I do think the principles of grow your customers grow the average 380 00:21:01,110 --> 00:21:06,950 order value and increase the frequency in which they buy as marketing ideas are, 381 00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:09,149 are sound, Do you know what I mean? 382 00:21:09,149 --> 00:21:12,750 And, and, and they, they do make sense and you can track those three things. 383 00:21:12,750 --> 00:21:17,790 You don't have to go to the expense of some, uh, RFM segmentation software yet, 384 00:21:18,419 --> 00:21:22,710 but you should be aware of them, uh, I think, and, and, and, and track them. 385 00:21:22,980 --> 00:21:27,389 So what tools can we use to track things like customer lifetime value, 386 00:21:27,389 --> 00:21:30,990 average order between average time between orders and stuff like that? 387 00:21:32,639 --> 00:21:35,850 So we use, we used reveal before. 388 00:21:36,780 --> 00:21:43,679 and I think we already discussed this earlier, uh, and is really good. 389 00:21:43,679 --> 00:21:44,760 We are really happy with it. 390 00:21:44,764 --> 00:21:50,310 And I also know that, uh, they use it with a few big like enterprise 391 00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:55,110 level companies, like DACA loan in Romania and those companies, 392 00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:56,639 they have millions of subscribers. 393 00:21:56,639 --> 00:22:00,389 Mm-hmm so it's, it's a really solid tool to use. 394 00:22:00,959 --> 00:22:05,610 We use Metrio or Metrilo with one skincare company. 395 00:22:06,165 --> 00:22:09,315 They are smaller on Shopify, but they are big on Amazon. 396 00:22:09,405 --> 00:22:09,645 Yeah. 397 00:22:09,705 --> 00:22:13,065 So I think that email list is a few tens of thousands of people. 398 00:22:13,095 --> 00:22:17,925 Mm-hmm , but these guys, since they already have a big Amazon business, they, 399 00:22:18,345 --> 00:22:22,575 they are, uh, they are new on Shopify, but they are not new to eCommerce. 400 00:22:22,575 --> 00:22:26,895 So they really started the business, the Shopify business 401 00:22:27,045 --> 00:22:28,245 with a really good mindset. 402 00:22:28,245 --> 00:22:33,014 And they wanted to measure these metrics, uh, from the first day. 403 00:22:33,075 --> 00:22:33,254 Yeah. 404 00:22:33,285 --> 00:22:34,274 So we use these. 405 00:22:34,979 --> 00:22:41,879 I would say these two, and then we also use Google analytics to get certain data. 406 00:22:42,060 --> 00:22:49,169 We can get cohorts from analytics, but, um, honestly to it, it took a lot of time 407 00:22:49,175 --> 00:22:56,040 to get the right data up from analytics and also analytics will change soon. 408 00:22:56,250 --> 00:22:56,489 Yeah. 409 00:22:56,489 --> 00:22:57,409 So change it again. 410 00:22:57,419 --> 00:22:57,659 Yeah. 411 00:22:57,959 --> 00:22:58,260 Yeah. 412 00:22:59,399 --> 00:23:03,210 I would say this to and material, if you want to get started with 413 00:23:03,780 --> 00:23:04,199 RFM. 414 00:23:04,409 --> 00:23:04,760 No. 415 00:23:04,764 --> 00:23:05,639 Great, great. 416 00:23:05,639 --> 00:23:08,159 And we will, of course link to both of those in the show notes. 417 00:23:08,159 --> 00:23:13,980 If you wanna get hold of them, um, we are gonna, I tell you what I'm gonna do now. 418 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:15,060 Don't go anywhere. 419 00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:18,090 We're gonna be right back in just a few seconds where Daniel, I gonna 420 00:23:18,449 --> 00:23:21,840 carry on our conversation and get into some of the specifics about what 421 00:23:21,845 --> 00:23:24,360 we can do to build customer loyalty. 422 00:23:24,689 --> 00:23:25,500 Uh, don't go anywhere. 423 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:26,970 We'll be back in just a few. 424 00:23:28,305 --> 00:23:28,485 Hey 425 00:23:28,485 --> 00:23:31,815 there are you a business owner here at Orion digital? 426 00:23:31,815 --> 00:23:34,785 We know firsthand that running an e-commerce business 427 00:23:34,785 --> 00:23:36,285 can be really hard work. 428 00:23:36,764 --> 00:23:39,105 As the online space gets more competitive. 429 00:23:39,135 --> 00:23:42,285 It is becoming even more challenging to stay ahead of the curve. 430 00:23:42,495 --> 00:23:43,695 We totally get it. 431 00:23:43,875 --> 00:23:48,014 So we wanna help you succeed by offering a wide range of services from 432 00:23:48,014 --> 00:23:52,215 fulfillment marketing, customer service, and even coaching and consulting, 433 00:23:52,635 --> 00:23:54,524 just so that you can do what matters. 434 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,610 Save yourself the time and the money and let us handle the day to day tasks. 435 00:23:59,939 --> 00:24:03,629 This way you can run your business without having to worry about the boring stuff. 436 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:05,010 So what do you say? 437 00:24:05,070 --> 00:24:06,600 Are we a good fit for each other? 438 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,770 Come check us out@oriondigital.com and let us know what you think. 439 00:24:20,025 --> 00:24:24,015 We were talking before the little break there that, um, you know, about RFM 440 00:24:24,015 --> 00:24:28,845 segmentation, about tracking certain, uh, ideals and metrics, which is great. 441 00:24:28,845 --> 00:24:32,955 And what, so we've, we've got our metrics in place, which we are tracking those. 442 00:24:33,345 --> 00:24:38,835 What are some of the things that I can do then to implement, um, using, you know, 443 00:24:39,419 --> 00:24:43,350 The strategies, which you use day in, day out with email, SMS and messenger. 444 00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:46,860 I think the three you mentioned mm-hmm what are some of the insights 445 00:24:46,860 --> 00:24:53,209 and strategies we can use then to, um, build, uh, customer loyalty, 446 00:24:53,610 --> 00:24:54,899 increase our customer attention? 447 00:24:57,209 --> 00:24:57,360 Yeah. 448 00:24:57,360 --> 00:24:58,260 Great question. 449 00:24:58,260 --> 00:25:03,239 So I think it also depends on the, a AOV for sure. 450 00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:05,399 And also what niche you are in. 451 00:25:05,399 --> 00:25:08,919 So there are certain industries, but, but it's really hard to 452 00:25:09,550 --> 00:25:10,695 build on loyalty. 453 00:25:10,695 --> 00:25:16,875 So let's say expensive jewelry or furniture companies that, uh, the average 454 00:25:16,875 --> 00:25:19,215 days between two orders, it's really high. 455 00:25:19,245 --> 00:25:20,085 It's a high number. 456 00:25:20,085 --> 00:25:25,754 You know, you don't buy a 5k, um, necklace every second week, obviously. 457 00:25:25,754 --> 00:25:30,074 So, um, first week, you know, we have to take this into account. 458 00:25:30,105 --> 00:25:33,794 I think where's crucial is, uh, consumable. 459 00:25:34,725 --> 00:25:40,725 And, uh, I think around 60% of our clients, they also sell consumables. 460 00:25:40,725 --> 00:25:45,645 So baby products, pet products, food, uh, fashion, skincare, 461 00:25:45,675 --> 00:25:47,415 beauty brands, hair care. 462 00:25:47,475 --> 00:25:47,595 Yeah. 463 00:25:47,595 --> 00:25:48,285 All of these. 464 00:25:49,005 --> 00:25:52,545 And, uh, I think their loyalty is crucial. 465 00:25:52,755 --> 00:25:55,080 So first of all. 466 00:25:55,139 --> 00:25:59,730 I think everyone should think about using less discounts because , I think 467 00:25:59,730 --> 00:26:05,040 it's just so you know, it's, it's so mainstream and in a negative way. 468 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,550 So yeah, nowadays consumers, they are smart. 469 00:26:08,550 --> 00:26:15,870 So not just marketers, but many people they know if they just abandon 470 00:26:15,870 --> 00:26:18,149 the cart, they will get a discount. 471 00:26:18,270 --> 00:26:18,389 Yeah. 472 00:26:18,389 --> 00:26:19,230 Within one day. 473 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:19,560 Yeah. 474 00:26:20,385 --> 00:26:21,375 People are smart. 475 00:26:22,035 --> 00:26:27,885 And, um, there are much better ways to, you know, to either get 476 00:26:27,885 --> 00:26:32,685 more subscribers or get, uh, more loyal customers and subscribers. 477 00:26:32,690 --> 00:26:36,405 So you can try something like a free sample product. 478 00:26:36,495 --> 00:26:38,415 Mm-hmm, , I'm a really big fan of it. 479 00:26:38,535 --> 00:26:45,795 And what I can see is that, uh, pop-up subscription rates are almost double, 480 00:26:45,795 --> 00:26:50,310 sometimes triple if you have a free sample mm-hmm and I know it takes some 481 00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:54,870 investments, so maybe a new business cannot afford this, but once you 482 00:26:54,870 --> 00:26:58,620 get some traction and the good cash flow, then you can think about it. 483 00:26:58,919 --> 00:27:02,399 My, uh, favorite example is, uh, Lumin skincare. 484 00:27:02,730 --> 00:27:04,139 It's an Australian company. 485 00:27:04,145 --> 00:27:09,840 I also use the product and if you go to the website, you will, you can get 486 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,800 a free product sample mm-hmm . And I think you can even pick from. 487 00:27:14,564 --> 00:27:15,675 Different products. 488 00:27:15,764 --> 00:27:16,064 Yeah. 489 00:27:17,084 --> 00:27:18,705 Based on your skin type, I think. 490 00:27:18,885 --> 00:27:19,034 Yeah. 491 00:27:19,064 --> 00:27:20,385 So that's really smart. 492 00:27:20,385 --> 00:27:21,435 People love those. 493 00:27:22,004 --> 00:27:24,975 Um, yeah. 494 00:27:24,975 --> 00:27:25,635 So yeah. 495 00:27:25,635 --> 00:27:26,745 Free, free sample. 496 00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:28,365 I would say that's the best really? 497 00:27:28,604 --> 00:27:29,895 Um, yeah, we 498 00:27:29,895 --> 00:27:30,195 did that. 499 00:27:31,544 --> 00:27:33,195 We did that with Jersey company. 500 00:27:33,375 --> 00:27:33,645 The. 501 00:27:34,395 --> 00:27:35,415 Which was a website. 502 00:27:35,415 --> 00:27:39,014 I sold one of my e-commerce businesses I sold, but we did that. 503 00:27:39,014 --> 00:27:42,195 If you, if you came to our website, you could just order free samples. 504 00:27:42,254 --> 00:27:43,635 You didn't even need to order a product. 505 00:27:43,875 --> 00:27:48,764 We did charge I think, a minimal fee for shipping and handling, but it was 506 00:27:48,764 --> 00:27:51,975 really interesting, you know, the people that came and ordered the free samples, 507 00:27:51,979 --> 00:27:53,594 half of them were a waste of time. 508 00:27:53,594 --> 00:27:54,885 And I mean, this would all due respect. 509 00:27:55,125 --> 00:27:59,115 A lot of them were just freebie hunters, uh, which is why we actually started 510 00:27:59,115 --> 00:28:01,935 to charge for shipping and handling to just reduce the freebie hunters. 511 00:28:01,935 --> 00:28:01,995 Yeah. 512 00:28:02,834 --> 00:28:08,730 Um, Then the other thing we started to do was the sort of, um, the 513 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,850 tester packs where you paid, like, I don't know, a minimal fee, like five 514 00:28:11,850 --> 00:28:14,100 bucks for, you know, a tester pack. 515 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,540 But if you ordered from us, um, you got the $5, you know, we gave you a five pound 516 00:28:18,540 --> 00:28:20,430 gift voucher to spend on the website. 517 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,940 Um, and we, we tested both those things and the free sample 518 00:28:23,940 --> 00:28:24,930 thing worked really, really. 519 00:28:25,754 --> 00:28:27,554 Really well, yeah, very high converting. 520 00:28:27,735 --> 00:28:30,345 And then as long as your email sequence afterwards was good, 521 00:28:30,345 --> 00:28:33,824 which we'll get into, you know, um, they, they converted quite well. 522 00:28:35,235 --> 00:28:40,004 And how did you recognize the, the hunters, the gift hunters? 523 00:28:41,745 --> 00:28:41,925 You 524 00:28:41,925 --> 00:28:43,814 just, it's one of those, isn't it? 525 00:28:43,875 --> 00:28:48,074 You J because somebody's purchased from you a sample pack, a purchase from you 526 00:28:48,074 --> 00:28:49,605 or ordered from you, a sample pack. 527 00:28:49,605 --> 00:28:57,300 You just have no idea about that person, what you could tell um, uh, was you 528 00:28:57,300 --> 00:29:03,510 could, you could track say, uh, let's say you were running paid media, a paid 529 00:29:03,515 --> 00:29:09,060 media campaign, like a Facebook ad to that free sample to generate new leads. 530 00:29:09,690 --> 00:29:13,560 Um, you could test which ads brought in the best customers, you 531 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,410 know, and which, which audiences bought in the best customers. 532 00:29:16,410 --> 00:29:19,470 And so you could track those kind of things, which was really helpful. 533 00:29:20,220 --> 00:29:24,885 Um, and we found that actually, if somebody put, um, Somebody came across 534 00:29:24,885 --> 00:29:30,675 it and they would share their, the link to, um, I don't know, like mum's 535 00:29:30,675 --> 00:29:33,105 net or some kind of forum like that. 536 00:29:33,825 --> 00:29:37,725 Um, then depending on the forum that they posted it on would also depend 537 00:29:37,725 --> 00:29:40,575 on the quality of customer that you would get as a, as a result of it. 538 00:29:40,575 --> 00:29:44,024 But we just solved the problem by just charging a fee of like, I 539 00:29:44,024 --> 00:29:46,875 think it was like three pounds, two pounds, 53 pounds, something like 540 00:29:47,024 --> 00:29:48,975 that for a shipping and packaging. 541 00:29:49,305 --> 00:29:51,645 And so that solved most of the issues right there. 542 00:29:53,370 --> 00:29:54,899 That's a good tactic, indeed. 543 00:29:55,710 --> 00:29:56,010 Yeah. 544 00:29:56,159 --> 00:29:57,899 So not completely free, but 545 00:29:58,530 --> 00:29:58,770 almost. 546 00:29:58,770 --> 00:30:02,610 Yeah, but almost, you know, the product itself was free. 547 00:30:03,030 --> 00:30:06,120 We just decided to pay shipping and handling, but we didn't charge 548 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,260 like 10 bucks shipping and handling because that would just be outrageous. 549 00:30:10,260 --> 00:30:10,770 Do you know what I mean? 550 00:30:10,770 --> 00:30:14,730 It was like a minimal fee, but enough to stop the, and we tested 551 00:30:14,730 --> 00:30:17,699 different levels to stop the, you know, the freebie hunters. 552 00:30:19,515 --> 00:30:19,725 yeah. 553 00:30:19,725 --> 00:30:23,895 Speaking about loyalty because this, this is just a small part of it. 554 00:30:23,895 --> 00:30:27,585 So I really recommend the book to everyone, which is 555 00:30:27,585 --> 00:30:29,235 never lose a customer again. 556 00:30:29,475 --> 00:30:29,925 Okay. 557 00:30:29,930 --> 00:30:33,885 I just, I just had the author, Joey Coleman in our, uh, podcast 558 00:30:34,485 --> 00:30:37,875 and more, more will come with him. 559 00:30:37,875 --> 00:30:40,575 But I think I should keep that secret now. 560 00:30:40,575 --> 00:30:43,245 So yeah. 561 00:30:43,335 --> 00:30:44,235 He's a great guy. 562 00:30:44,325 --> 00:30:44,655 Yeah. 563 00:30:44,815 --> 00:30:46,725 He, he is really, I think. 564 00:30:47,655 --> 00:30:50,355 Probably he's the, one of the best in the world when it comes 565 00:30:50,355 --> 00:30:52,095 to loyalty, customer loyalty. 566 00:30:52,635 --> 00:30:57,135 Um, and it's not just about software or whatever, but psychology, 567 00:30:57,165 --> 00:31:01,575 like how this works and yeah. 568 00:31:01,580 --> 00:31:02,534 So check out that book. 569 00:31:02,534 --> 00:31:03,524 I really recommend that. 570 00:31:03,524 --> 00:31:08,325 And besides you can use tools such as JPO stem Dota. 571 00:31:08,355 --> 00:31:12,165 My favorite is loyalty lion, which is actually a UK company. 572 00:31:13,190 --> 00:31:20,085 and those are all great to create VIP tiers for, for your most loyal customers. 573 00:31:20,295 --> 00:31:25,275 They can, uh, you know, collect their points and they can use them 574 00:31:25,275 --> 00:31:27,675 in a, in different creative ways. 575 00:31:27,915 --> 00:31:31,275 You can also connect this with SMS and play view. 576 00:31:31,275 --> 00:31:36,315 Mm-hmm with email marketing, so you can set up different smart flows to 577 00:31:36,375 --> 00:31:39,195 communicate with your loyalty members. 578 00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:45,750 And yeah, so about tracking, you can also track the numbers that actually 579 00:31:45,750 --> 00:31:47,520 these guys, they are really valuable. 580 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,690 They are 10 times more valuable than your average customer, and 581 00:31:51,690 --> 00:31:53,460 you can see why it's so important. 582 00:31:53,490 --> 00:31:56,820 So these are the best tools that we use. 583 00:31:56,940 --> 00:32:01,890 And I would say, try to come up with creative ideas, how to 584 00:32:02,820 --> 00:32:04,680 retain those loyal customers. 585 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,600 And don't just use discounts, but. 586 00:32:07,350 --> 00:32:10,380 , you know, I think big brands are actually pretty good at this 587 00:32:10,380 --> 00:32:12,360 like Nike Adidas. 588 00:32:12,810 --> 00:32:16,920 They offer you even live meetings. 589 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:20,760 Uh, if you hit certain points, I know brands who, who do it. 590 00:32:20,790 --> 00:32:23,640 I think Jim shark is going into this direction as well. 591 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:25,200 So. 592 00:32:25,875 --> 00:32:30,885 Try to be creative and, uh, come up with great offers and you can 593 00:32:30,885 --> 00:32:33,075 steal ideas from these big brands. 594 00:32:33,585 --> 00:32:33,765 So 595 00:32:33,765 --> 00:32:35,265 what are some of the things that you, I mean, you've 596 00:32:35,265 --> 00:32:37,335 mentioned the free samples thing. 597 00:32:37,545 --> 00:32:41,925 Um, what are some of the other ideas that you've seen work really well? 598 00:32:41,925 --> 00:32:42,915 That are what you'd call. 599 00:32:42,975 --> 00:32:44,535 Well, they're just not discounted basically. 600 00:32:44,535 --> 00:32:45,075 They're a bit more 601 00:32:45,075 --> 00:32:45,525 creative. 602 00:32:45,555 --> 00:32:48,165 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 603 00:32:48,165 --> 00:32:48,945 I will be honest. 604 00:32:48,945 --> 00:32:51,135 So actually my team know, knows it better. 605 00:32:51,225 --> 00:32:58,215 Um, yeah, if you want, I can send you a short list, uh, of, of the best 606 00:32:58,215 --> 00:33:04,334 ideas, but I think everyone should be really conscious about their brand and 607 00:33:04,334 --> 00:33:06,225 their audience and what they offer. 608 00:33:06,495 --> 00:33:06,705 Yeah. 609 00:33:06,735 --> 00:33:10,284 So, yeah, and even can work out pretty well. 610 00:33:11,054 --> 00:33:19,770 If you can manage that, uh, we mentioned free sample and, uh, Yeah. 611 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:26,490 I know someone who holds, uh, Facebook lives mm-hmm and uh, people can 612 00:33:26,490 --> 00:33:28,830 participate in the Facebook live. 613 00:33:28,890 --> 00:33:29,100 Yeah. 614 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:30,300 Or even ask questions. 615 00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:31,560 It's a keto brand. 616 00:33:31,860 --> 00:33:32,130 Yeah. 617 00:33:32,550 --> 00:33:34,740 So these are just a few ideas. 618 00:33:34,745 --> 00:33:35,110 Yeah. 619 00:33:35,115 --> 00:33:35,430 Yeah. 620 00:33:35,490 --> 00:33:36,240 That's fascinating. 621 00:33:36,510 --> 00:33:40,230 I'm seeing this live streaming thing more and more, and they're starting 622 00:33:40,230 --> 00:33:45,690 to call it live selling now, which is, or live commerce, which, it's gonna 623 00:33:45,690 --> 00:33:47,040 be an interesting thing coming out. 624 00:33:47,700 --> 00:33:56,220 So, um, what sort of, what sort of things could I use, um, with emails, for example? 625 00:33:56,220 --> 00:34:00,060 So how do I can, how can I use my emails to build customer loyalty? 626 00:34:00,060 --> 00:34:01,050 Mm-hmm 627 00:34:02,415 --> 00:34:02,595 . . Yeah. 628 00:34:02,595 --> 00:34:07,335 So first of all, I would, uh, recommend everyone that you should have solid 629 00:34:07,335 --> 00:34:12,705 email flows cause automations, they usually have higher revenue 630 00:34:13,065 --> 00:34:15,255 per recipient than campaigns. 631 00:34:15,255 --> 00:34:19,425 Mm-hmm because flows are triggered by certain behaviors. 632 00:34:19,455 --> 00:34:24,045 So it's not just automated, but the targeting is solid. 633 00:34:24,045 --> 00:34:28,155 Like, yeah, it it's, it's hard to achieve something similar with 634 00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:29,525 campaigns within my campaign. 635 00:34:30,315 --> 00:34:33,284 And, uh, build the right type of flow. 636 00:34:33,284 --> 00:34:39,135 So everyone needs a new customer flow, have a separate flow for new customers, 637 00:34:39,465 --> 00:34:44,864 make it long with many emails and just try to introduce your brand to them. 638 00:34:45,135 --> 00:34:50,145 Um, you can also send them some instructions how to use the product, 639 00:34:50,475 --> 00:34:53,745 especially if it's a more complex product, maybe furniture mm-hmm 640 00:34:54,405 --> 00:34:56,505 If it's a t-shirt probably you shouldn't do it. 641 00:34:56,864 --> 00:34:58,365 And then to put in a T. 642 00:35:00,330 --> 00:35:00,509 Yeah. 643 00:35:00,509 --> 00:35:02,910 Maybe how, how to wash the t-shirt. 644 00:35:02,970 --> 00:35:04,170 Yeah, maybe that's a better one. 645 00:35:04,259 --> 00:35:04,420 Yeah. 646 00:35:04,424 --> 00:35:04,710 Yeah. 647 00:35:05,940 --> 00:35:07,799 so, yeah, you never know. 648 00:35:08,279 --> 00:35:13,799 Um, what we also do once they get the product, then, uh, we send them 649 00:35:13,799 --> 00:35:17,220 a survey and we try to upsell more. 650 00:35:18,180 --> 00:35:21,840 Uh, and then we collect the fresh customer reviews and you can 651 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,670 send it out as an email campaign. 652 00:35:23,790 --> 00:35:26,910 Mm-hmm and actually it converts really well in most. 653 00:35:28,334 --> 00:35:34,154 And then have separate flows for your VIP customers where, you know, 654 00:35:34,154 --> 00:35:37,334 it's more warm hearted, let's say. 655 00:35:37,904 --> 00:35:41,745 And, uh, you can even ask their opinion about your products. 656 00:35:41,834 --> 00:35:46,365 Like what do you think about our products and not just product, but okay. 657 00:35:46,370 --> 00:35:47,024 What do you think? 658 00:35:47,024 --> 00:35:51,285 How should we become an even better business brand? 659 00:35:51,495 --> 00:35:56,745 Uh, how, what direction should we set, uh, with our product development? 660 00:35:57,165 --> 00:36:03,555 So, uh, VIP flow and then you can set up different flows for, for, you know, in 661 00:36:03,555 --> 00:36:07,365 connected with your, with your loyalty program, like redeem your points. 662 00:36:07,605 --> 00:36:11,294 This is how you can use them or refer us to a friend. 663 00:36:11,805 --> 00:36:16,154 Um, so there are different flows for, for loyalty as well. 664 00:36:16,535 --> 00:36:17,024 Yeah. 665 00:36:17,805 --> 00:36:18,075 Yeah. 666 00:36:18,075 --> 00:36:18,944 That's very good. 667 00:36:19,065 --> 00:36:19,875 I mean, and they're all. 668 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,640 I mean, all the stuff you've mentioned, there is all fairly straightforward setup. 669 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:23,940 Isn't it? 670 00:36:23,940 --> 00:36:29,040 In systems like Klayvio or active campaign or, um, you know, whatever platform you 671 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,870 use, I think MailChimp do them as well. 672 00:36:31,379 --> 00:36:36,060 Um, but there, do you have an email platform of choice? 673 00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:37,649 I mean, you've mentioned Klayvio a couple times. 674 00:36:37,649 --> 00:36:38,100 Is that the one 675 00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:38,759 that you use? 676 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,029 Yeah, Klayvio 100%. 677 00:36:42,029 --> 00:36:44,069 In the past, we worked with some merchant. 678 00:36:45,134 --> 00:36:48,945 We tried, I think at least five other platforms. 679 00:36:49,035 --> 00:36:51,645 Mm-hmm we tried drip internally. 680 00:36:51,645 --> 00:36:58,275 We use HubSpot for B2B and then sand grid, I think. 681 00:36:58,485 --> 00:36:58,755 Yeah. 682 00:36:58,785 --> 00:37:02,174 But still Klayvio is our go to choice. 683 00:37:02,235 --> 00:37:02,505 Yeah. 684 00:37:02,575 --> 00:37:05,924 So if youre an e-commerce then Klayvio yeah, yeah, 685 00:37:06,404 --> 00:37:06,674 yeah. 686 00:37:06,674 --> 00:37:09,615 It's actually, we're using Klayvio at the moment. 687 00:37:09,705 --> 00:37:12,615 Um, and it's, I've just got my through my first. 688 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:15,299 little while of using them. 689 00:37:15,299 --> 00:37:18,149 We we've tried a whole bunch of other ones and I, and the other one I like 690 00:37:18,149 --> 00:37:21,330 is Omni send we've had, we have Omni send on the podcast, actually the 691 00:37:21,330 --> 00:37:22,710 guys from there and they, they do it. 692 00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:22,890 Great. 693 00:37:22,890 --> 00:37:22,950 Yeah. 694 00:37:22,955 --> 00:37:25,290 Cause they integrate also with SMS messaging don't they? 695 00:37:25,290 --> 00:37:25,799 Omni send. 696 00:37:26,069 --> 00:37:26,460 Yeah. 697 00:37:26,759 --> 00:37:31,109 Um, does Klayvio integrate with SMS or is it just email 698 00:37:31,115 --> 00:37:32,259 only for those that don't know, 699 00:37:33,970 --> 00:37:36,690 So Klayvio can do SMS as well. 700 00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:39,210 However, we tend not to use it. 701 00:37:39,214 --> 00:37:39,540 Mm. 702 00:37:40,589 --> 00:37:46,799 And we use other tools like SMS bump, pre card post, because 703 00:37:46,799 --> 00:37:48,359 there are certain limitations. 704 00:37:48,359 --> 00:37:53,580 So I think it's still only available in, uh, English speaking countries. 705 00:37:53,580 --> 00:37:55,620 So not in France, Germany, right. 706 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,779 Or, you know, other European countries. 707 00:37:58,609 --> 00:38:02,009 Um, that's one limitation also. 708 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,799 I think campaigns could be better. 709 00:38:05,549 --> 00:38:11,625 Um, Yeah, I, my go to choice would be recard now, but this landscape 710 00:38:11,625 --> 00:38:13,125 changes almost every month. 711 00:38:13,125 --> 00:38:17,505 So before we use SMS bump with most clients, now we prefer recard. 712 00:38:18,045 --> 00:38:22,545 So yeah, it's, it's always about the features, I would say. 713 00:38:22,815 --> 00:38:27,795 Yeah, I'm not envy of these guys to be honest because they, they, 714 00:38:27,795 --> 00:38:29,655 it's a kind of rat race, you know, 715 00:38:30,795 --> 00:38:31,305 Yeah, it is. 716 00:38:31,515 --> 00:38:33,855 And they're always trying to like out do each other on features aren't they 717 00:38:33,855 --> 00:38:35,955 and the latest thing and, um, yeah. 718 00:38:35,955 --> 00:38:37,005 And what happens. 719 00:38:37,095 --> 00:38:39,345 And then of course, apple come along and screw everything up 720 00:38:39,375 --> 00:38:40,875 with some latest iOS change. 721 00:38:40,875 --> 00:38:42,555 And then it's like, oh, back to drawing board again. 722 00:38:42,555 --> 00:38:43,005 Thanks guys. 723 00:38:43,005 --> 00:38:43,245 Yeah. 724 00:38:43,755 --> 00:38:46,485 Um, , we've seen that. 725 00:38:46,545 --> 00:38:47,745 Uh, we've seen that a lot. 726 00:38:47,745 --> 00:38:51,645 So, um, so that's, I mean, there's some top tool tips there and we 727 00:38:51,645 --> 00:38:54,735 will, of course put the links to those tools in the show notes. 728 00:38:54,735 --> 00:39:00,680 If you want to know those in terms of, um, I get that, that you 729 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:05,720 know, that we need to, in terms of customer loyalty, we, we, we want 730 00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:07,370 to increase our average order value. 731 00:39:07,370 --> 00:39:08,960 We want to increase our lifetime value. 732 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,730 We want to increase the, or decrease the amount of days between transactions 733 00:39:13,879 --> 00:39:15,009 increase their order frequency. 734 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,299 Uh, and we want to be creative in doing this. 735 00:39:18,299 --> 00:39:20,640 We don't just wanna keep giving discount after discount after discount, 736 00:39:20,645 --> 00:39:23,759 because that's just never a great way to win long term with e-commerce. 737 00:39:24,210 --> 00:39:28,319 So I've gotta set up my email sequences and my, um, or flows as you 738 00:39:28,319 --> 00:39:31,440 called them where a certain action is gonna trigger a certain event. 739 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,720 And I've got, I've got these different, uh, emails, uh, all set up, um, 740 00:39:36,779 --> 00:39:38,250 all the different flows working. 741 00:39:38,250 --> 00:39:41,310 And there's, you know, we've talked about flows a lot on the podcast. 742 00:39:41,670 --> 00:39:45,060 Um, And a flow could be anywhere from probably three 743 00:39:45,060 --> 00:39:46,740 emails up to maybe about seven. 744 00:39:46,830 --> 00:39:49,169 I think it depends on you and your brand, I suppose. 745 00:39:49,799 --> 00:39:58,335 Um, what sort of things, should I be thinking about in terms 746 00:39:58,335 --> 00:40:00,285 of design of those emails? 747 00:40:00,285 --> 00:40:04,335 Because I tell you what, um, the flows I get, like we've got 748 00:40:04,335 --> 00:40:06,165 a, a, a vegan supplement brand. 749 00:40:06,165 --> 00:40:08,265 Vegetology one of our, our websites. 750 00:40:08,775 --> 00:40:12,884 I understand the, the flows that I have to send to customers to make that work. 751 00:40:12,884 --> 00:40:13,095 Right. 752 00:40:13,095 --> 00:40:15,375 I I've got my head around it, I guess. 753 00:40:15,375 --> 00:40:18,375 What sort of, how should I lay it out? 754 00:40:18,375 --> 00:40:19,305 How should I design it? 755 00:40:19,305 --> 00:40:20,710 I dunno if you've got any thoughts on that? 756 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,290 Yeah, that's a really important question. 757 00:40:25,290 --> 00:40:31,530 And, uh, I can see people fighting over this topic , you know? 758 00:40:32,310 --> 00:40:32,520 Yeah. 759 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:33,690 We should definitely. 760 00:40:33,990 --> 00:40:34,350 Yeah. 761 00:40:34,355 --> 00:40:34,470 Yeah. 762 00:40:34,860 --> 00:40:38,040 Especially when it comes to designers and copywriters. 763 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:38,790 So yeah. 764 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:44,220 Um, I would say it really depends, and I know everyone has this answer, but 765 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,350 let me give you some insights on this. 766 00:40:47,730 --> 00:40:52,350 You know, what we can see is that many times plain text emails, without 767 00:40:52,350 --> 00:40:54,360 any design, they convert amazing 768 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,820 especially if it's a warmhearted email. 769 00:40:56,910 --> 00:40:57,060 Yeah. 770 00:40:57,090 --> 00:41:02,280 From the CEO when I started my career, I used these emails a lot, you know, 771 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:08,520 um, I made up some story that I'm traveling to a conference now and I have 772 00:41:08,850 --> 00:41:11,070 half an hour to give you a discount. 773 00:41:11,490 --> 00:41:15,240 mm-hmm I remember those emails in the early days and they converted really well. 774 00:41:17,745 --> 00:41:20,355 Yeah, but what we realized after a while. 775 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:26,295 So, you know, there are fashion brands, skincare brands, all of these gym brands, 776 00:41:26,295 --> 00:41:31,695 let's say where design gym shark is a really good example, I think, or Nike. 777 00:41:31,995 --> 00:41:35,355 So their design is crucial because this is what sells. 778 00:41:35,355 --> 00:41:36,735 It's not about the copy. 779 00:41:36,945 --> 00:41:39,165 It's not about how you write the email. 780 00:41:39,315 --> 00:41:42,405 Of course it's important, but that's a really small part of it. 781 00:41:42,585 --> 00:41:43,985 Design is the most, I. 782 00:41:44,595 --> 00:41:50,415 So I think the business owner and the, the marketers in the team should know, 783 00:41:50,654 --> 00:41:53,234 okay, what really sells these products? 784 00:41:53,745 --> 00:41:56,865 Are we design focused or more like copywriting focus? 785 00:41:57,134 --> 00:42:00,795 And probably, I would say most brands, they should be copywriting focused 786 00:42:00,825 --> 00:42:03,825 because direct response just works. 787 00:42:03,830 --> 00:42:07,065 You know, if you are a good copywriter, you will sell your products. 788 00:42:07,234 --> 00:42:11,745 Yeah, but there are those cases when it's a lifestyle brand or there is 789 00:42:11,745 --> 00:42:15,975 some reason for that, then design becomes much more important than copy. 790 00:42:16,275 --> 00:42:20,565 So you just, maybe let's, uh, talk about an example. 791 00:42:20,565 --> 00:42:25,875 So you just mentioned this, uh, vegan brand that you have, and, uh, I'm curious, 792 00:42:25,875 --> 00:42:27,705 what do you think about this brand? 793 00:42:27,705 --> 00:42:32,055 Like, is it design focused or more like, you know, good offers. 794 00:42:32,175 --> 00:42:32,985 Good copy. 795 00:42:35,009 --> 00:42:37,590 Uh, if I'm honest with you, Daniel, I'm trying to do all of it. 796 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,690 Uh, I'm trying to, what I've, what I can tell you is we do the emails 797 00:42:42,690 --> 00:42:44,160 where they're very well designed. 798 00:42:44,460 --> 00:42:50,040 Um, And it's, it's hard to make, um, a tablet look pretty right. 799 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,710 Is, is so, you know, you have to do the lifestyle shots and 800 00:42:52,710 --> 00:42:53,790 the lifestyle photography. 801 00:42:54,510 --> 00:42:59,250 Um, but one of the things that I do like to do, although I, I, I 802 00:42:59,255 --> 00:43:00,630 don't actually make up the stories. 803 00:43:00,630 --> 00:43:07,230 I, as the MD of that company, I do like to email just a plain text email. 804 00:43:07,530 --> 00:43:07,560 Okay. 805 00:43:08,220 --> 00:43:12,090 And, um, or at least a minimal email, you know, like a, a with 806 00:43:12,090 --> 00:43:13,560 very minimal graphics, like. 807 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:19,680 Here's an update or here's something, you know, and, um, whenever 808 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,100 I've sent those out, certainly with our existing customers, you 809 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:27,650 always always get an overwhelming response in terms of, because it 810 00:43:28,110 --> 00:43:30,210 it feels like a normal email. 811 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:30,570 Yeah. 812 00:43:30,570 --> 00:43:30,779 Normal. 813 00:43:30,779 --> 00:43:33,990 As in, it's not a promotional email, there's no real heavy graphics in there. 814 00:43:34,380 --> 00:43:37,529 People respond, people just hit the reply button and they, they 815 00:43:37,535 --> 00:43:40,259 answer you, whatever question you've asked, Do you know what I mean? 816 00:43:40,259 --> 00:43:40,890 And they, yeah. 817 00:43:40,890 --> 00:43:43,020 And it starts to engage them in a conversation. 818 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,850 Um, and I actually really like that to the point where, um, I've said to the 819 00:43:47,850 --> 00:43:49,620 team, I'm like, how do we do that more? 820 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:50,460 Really? 821 00:43:51,330 --> 00:43:51,810 Yeah. 822 00:43:52,140 --> 00:43:55,140 But if you, but if you did only. 823 00:43:56,294 --> 00:43:57,015 It's a good question. 824 00:43:57,015 --> 00:43:57,404 Isn't it? 825 00:43:57,645 --> 00:43:58,845 It is a really good question. 826 00:43:58,845 --> 00:44:00,855 Could we do just something like that? 827 00:44:01,365 --> 00:44:03,524 Uh, I dunno if I'm that brave, if I'm honest with you. 828 00:44:04,785 --> 00:44:05,634 yeah, yeah, yeah. 829 00:44:05,774 --> 00:44:09,165 Or, or let's let, let me ask you differently. 830 00:44:09,165 --> 00:44:11,674 So, uh, why do you do the nice design emails? 831 00:44:13,740 --> 00:44:13,890 I 832 00:44:13,890 --> 00:44:16,380 think it's I, again, I like to mix it up. 833 00:44:16,470 --> 00:44:21,960 And so, um, if we have, for example, a new product, uh, which comes out on, 834 00:44:22,050 --> 00:44:27,360 uh, so we're just about to launch, um, a sleep tablet, for example, mm-hmm, 835 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:28,590 , it's something that helps with sleep. 836 00:44:29,190 --> 00:44:29,400 Yeah. 837 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:35,235 And so, um, You want something that is well, you know, good copyright, 838 00:44:35,235 --> 00:44:39,015 but I think also your, your showing as well as telling aren't you, and 839 00:44:39,015 --> 00:44:41,955 I think a picture paints a thousand words in situations like that. 840 00:44:41,955 --> 00:44:46,545 And so for me, some kind of lifestyle photography, even just somebody sleeping 841 00:44:46,545 --> 00:44:52,365 in a bed soundly, it implies so much that just from that single picture, you 842 00:44:52,365 --> 00:44:56,565 know, so, um, we would, we would use 843 00:44:57,885 --> 00:45:01,335 uh, images when, when we feel like it helps enhance the 844 00:45:01,335 --> 00:45:01,845 story. 845 00:45:02,235 --> 00:45:02,865 Makes sense. 846 00:45:02,955 --> 00:45:03,255 Yeah. 847 00:45:03,495 --> 00:45:05,055 Yeah, yeah. 848 00:45:05,445 --> 00:45:09,225 Actually then, uh, I think what you're talking about this, you 849 00:45:09,230 --> 00:45:12,885 know, picturing how the product works, what, what's the benefit. 850 00:45:12,885 --> 00:45:18,375 That's also quite direct response because if you think about even the old direct 851 00:45:18,375 --> 00:45:20,715 response ads, they had images or yeah. 852 00:45:20,715 --> 00:45:24,285 Or drawings, they were really similar, but they had a purpose, which. 853 00:45:25,725 --> 00:45:27,825 Showing how the product is used. 854 00:45:27,825 --> 00:45:29,505 Why, why it's good to use it. 855 00:45:29,655 --> 00:45:31,755 It's not because it's nice or whatever. 856 00:45:31,995 --> 00:45:37,635 So, yeah, I think, uh, you know, if you can see this, then maybe you 857 00:45:37,635 --> 00:45:41,805 could try that, okay, this month we will send more plain text emails. 858 00:45:41,810 --> 00:45:46,035 Next month we will try more design emails and then just 859 00:45:46,035 --> 00:45:49,005 change the ratio, um, of those. 860 00:45:49,065 --> 00:45:49,545 And. 861 00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:51,569 Yeah. 862 00:45:51,569 --> 00:45:53,160 After five minutes for me. 863 00:45:53,250 --> 00:45:58,470 Uh it's it sounds like you should try more, um, copy based and you can use 864 00:45:58,475 --> 00:46:00,569 images, but it's not a bad, nice design. 865 00:46:00,575 --> 00:46:01,770 It's not like Gym shark. 866 00:46:01,770 --> 00:46:04,020 So yeah, that's what I would try for. 867 00:46:04,020 --> 00:46:04,080 Yeah, 868 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:05,670 no, I, I totally agree. 869 00:46:05,730 --> 00:46:08,880 And it's something on our, on our roadmap to do, because I think, 870 00:46:08,970 --> 00:46:13,259 um, the simplicity of those emails just encourages conversation and, 871 00:46:13,259 --> 00:46:14,880 and that's actually quite nice. 872 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:15,520 Mm-hmm and so. 873 00:46:16,390 --> 00:46:18,555 um, yeah, that's all, it's funny. 874 00:46:18,555 --> 00:46:18,855 Isn't it? 875 00:46:18,855 --> 00:46:21,885 How these things come and go, you know, right at the beginning, I remember all 876 00:46:21,885 --> 00:46:23,475 you could do was plain text emails. 877 00:46:23,575 --> 00:46:24,065 Yeah. 878 00:46:24,255 --> 00:46:27,495 And then we started doing HTML emails and they became all graphic 879 00:46:27,495 --> 00:46:28,815 space and everyone loved them. 880 00:46:28,815 --> 00:46:32,085 And then we could put video and emails and, and now it's coming back round. 881 00:46:32,085 --> 00:46:35,625 So it's like, actually it's understanding the right tool for the right job. 882 00:46:36,005 --> 00:46:36,845 At the right time. 883 00:46:36,845 --> 00:46:37,115 Right? 884 00:46:37,115 --> 00:46:41,795 So, uh, listen, I, I think we could keep talking about this, but one 885 00:46:41,795 --> 00:46:46,085 thing that I did say we would touch on, um, that I, I, I wanted touch on 886 00:46:46,085 --> 00:46:48,275 because I'm aware of time is just. 887 00:46:49,140 --> 00:46:54,480 the fact that you built an agency quite rapidly to, um, you know, and had to hire 888 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:55,950 a whole bunch of people quite quickly. 889 00:46:56,549 --> 00:46:59,810 Um, and you know, you started yourself as a freelancer on Upwork. 890 00:47:00,330 --> 00:47:04,049 Uh you've I'm guessing you have gone and recruited people from 891 00:47:04,055 --> 00:47:06,060 places like Upwork in your agency. 892 00:47:06,630 --> 00:47:09,299 Um, so what is somebody's listening to the show? 893 00:47:09,299 --> 00:47:10,620 Their business has grown in scale. 894 00:47:10,620 --> 00:47:12,450 And what are some of the key lessons that you've learned? 895 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:14,490 sure. 896 00:47:14,490 --> 00:47:18,690 So first of all, hiring is, is crucial. 897 00:47:19,379 --> 00:47:23,700 Hiring is a kind of inverted sales or inverse sales. 898 00:47:24,420 --> 00:47:26,160 Many people say not many, but. 899 00:47:26,924 --> 00:47:29,384 Think Alex homos said this, actually. 900 00:47:29,384 --> 00:47:34,814 And I really like this quote because you are hiring clients as an agency, 901 00:47:34,814 --> 00:47:37,154 but you are so, or sorry you are. 902 00:47:37,305 --> 00:47:41,805 Yeah, you are acquiring clients basically to increase your business, but also 903 00:47:41,805 --> 00:47:44,955 on the other side, you need people who deliver the work and you also. 904 00:47:45,975 --> 00:47:46,845 Acquire them. 905 00:47:47,025 --> 00:47:50,535 So it's, it's, you know, and it's also about people. 906 00:47:50,540 --> 00:47:53,654 So sales and hiring is pretty close to each other. 907 00:47:54,315 --> 00:47:57,944 Um, always look for talent people. 908 00:47:57,950 --> 00:48:01,185 They always look for clients, but they don't always look for talent. 909 00:48:01,185 --> 00:48:02,775 And I think that's a huge mistake. 910 00:48:03,464 --> 00:48:09,585 Um, and what I just realized recently, and yeah, I think this is huge. 911 00:48:09,585 --> 00:48:15,210 So people come first, like it's not about strategy, not about marketing, 912 00:48:15,210 --> 00:48:18,930 not about copywriting, but people because good people, they can create 913 00:48:18,930 --> 00:48:21,060 good strategy marketing copywriting. 914 00:48:21,060 --> 00:48:26,160 So, you know, it's really about people in your team and get being connected 915 00:48:26,165 --> 00:48:28,330 with good people, talented people. 916 00:48:29,260 --> 00:48:32,850 Um, I, I think those are my recent. 917 00:48:34,260 --> 00:48:38,070 Learnings, but of course along the way, I learned a lot of things. 918 00:48:38,130 --> 00:48:44,850 Um, I, I learned, um, I, I read a lot of books about management and leadership. 919 00:48:44,910 --> 00:48:47,460 I think I read more than 40 books on this topic. 920 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:47,940 Wow. 921 00:48:47,940 --> 00:48:51,480 So I, I really like this topic, actually. 922 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,380 I'm thinking about, uh, making a course or some kind of 923 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,270 mentorship program or whatever. 924 00:48:57,270 --> 00:48:59,670 I really enjoy teaching this. 925 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:00,180 Yeah. 926 00:49:00,750 --> 00:49:01,500 Uh, topic. 927 00:49:02,549 --> 00:49:07,470 Also, I think it's undervalued, you know, like you can find a lot of marketing 928 00:49:07,470 --> 00:49:11,730 courses everywhere, but you cannot find any about creative management 929 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:13,950 or good leadership in eCommerce. 930 00:49:13,950 --> 00:49:16,020 So, yeah. 931 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:20,595 Um, I would say, yeah, these, these are the few takeaways. 932 00:49:20,714 --> 00:49:23,654 Um, I can get more specific if you want. 933 00:49:24,134 --> 00:49:24,404 No, 934 00:49:24,404 --> 00:49:25,395 I think it's interesting. 935 00:49:25,395 --> 00:49:25,754 Isn't it? 936 00:49:25,754 --> 00:49:28,904 Because I, um, I know you've got your podcast, the ecom podcast, 937 00:49:28,904 --> 00:49:31,395 which is a great podcast and everyone should go and subscribe to it. 938 00:49:31,455 --> 00:49:32,714 And again, we'll link to that and show. 939 00:49:32,805 --> 00:49:35,645 And in fact, uh, it's, I've been on your podcast. 940 00:49:36,044 --> 00:49:37,544 It's not great because I've been on it. 941 00:49:37,544 --> 00:49:40,875 I irrespective , it's a, it's a great show. 942 00:49:41,415 --> 00:49:45,085 One of the things that I found Daniel, and I dunno if again you found the same 943 00:49:45,085 --> 00:49:50,520 thing, when you go onto other people's shows, right, and they interview on 944 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:54,330 their podcast, they want to know things like, we want to know, like, how do 945 00:49:54,330 --> 00:49:57,629 I do emails that increase customer loyalty, but as I've done today, 946 00:49:57,629 --> 00:49:58,440 I'm like, well, hang on a minute. 947 00:49:58,444 --> 00:49:59,879 There's also this other side. 948 00:49:59,879 --> 00:50:01,560 There's also this other story. 949 00:50:02,384 --> 00:50:07,065 Um, in terms of your you've had to rapidly scale and grow your business. 950 00:50:07,065 --> 00:50:11,055 Well, that's not really eCommerce, but that's stuff we definitely want to know 951 00:50:11,055 --> 00:50:16,634 about because yeah, we're facing similar sort of stuff in our own business. 952 00:50:16,634 --> 00:50:20,835 And so, um, I find it fascinating, know this whole idea of leadership and 953 00:50:20,835 --> 00:50:25,125 challenges and how you deal with them and like you, the whole thing intrigues me. 954 00:50:25,125 --> 00:50:26,595 And I'm, I'm not doing a course on it. 955 00:50:26,774 --> 00:50:28,455 We're actually starting a second podcast. 956 00:50:29,005 --> 00:50:31,795 But by the time this episode comes up, that may well be started. 957 00:50:31,795 --> 00:50:32,245 I don't know. 958 00:50:32,665 --> 00:50:38,425 Um, but where do you go to find good people? 959 00:50:38,425 --> 00:50:41,455 Because that, I think that's one of the key questions people have is like, how 960 00:50:41,455 --> 00:50:44,365 do I go and hire group, it's great to go and get talent, but where do I find? 961 00:50:45,055 --> 00:50:45,445 Sure. 962 00:50:45,445 --> 00:50:50,425 So as you mentioned, I started hiring on upward because that's how 963 00:50:50,425 --> 00:50:52,105 I got hired as well at the really. 964 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:58,320 and then we had the chance to work with, uh, I will mention her name. 965 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:03,900 So, so Angela Muong she's from South Africa, but she lives in California or? 966 00:51:04,230 --> 00:51:05,520 Yeah, I think she lives there now. 967 00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:10,120 Mm-hmm, , she's a big traveler and, uh, she's amazing with, uh, with hiring. 968 00:51:10,410 --> 00:51:15,690 So I think her professor was, uh, cheeks and MI high and he 969 00:51:15,690 --> 00:51:19,800 wrote the book flow, which is a really well known psychological. 970 00:51:20,130 --> 00:51:25,350 So she, she is, you know, she's really good with hiring and with, with people. 971 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,080 And she helped us at the, at the beginning. 972 00:51:28,350 --> 00:51:32,200 And then we started using LinkedIn ads to find good talent. 973 00:51:33,105 --> 00:51:39,075 Just recently last year we started looking into more niche platforms 974 00:51:39,075 --> 00:51:43,755 like designers, B hands and dribble mm-hmm and then developers. 975 00:51:44,655 --> 00:51:48,355 I think that is a Shopify platform just for Shopify devs. 976 00:51:49,005 --> 00:51:53,895 And, uh, yeah, we just, you know, indeed I think in the us it's huge. 977 00:51:53,895 --> 00:51:57,465 So we just started looking into more platforms and uh, 978 00:51:57,465 --> 00:51:59,675 now we use all of them and our 979 00:52:00,150 --> 00:52:03,300 HR guy, uh, our head of culture. 980 00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:04,980 That's how we call him. 981 00:52:04,980 --> 00:52:07,500 So he takes care of the whole process. 982 00:52:07,770 --> 00:52:13,680 But what I would recommend to everyone is that try to have a person in your 983 00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:18,200 team who is your head of culture, your HR person, and, uh, someone 984 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:23,190 who really takes care of the teams, mental health a bit as well, not just 985 00:52:23,430 --> 00:52:28,770 hiring and, uh, yeah, I think that's, that's really, really important area. 986 00:52:29,550 --> 00:52:32,850 That's actually really, really important, uh, who looks after the 987 00:52:32,850 --> 00:52:35,940 team's mental health, because it's, it is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. 988 00:52:36,150 --> 00:52:39,960 Um, and definitely one, we need to get involved with one of the things that I 989 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,520 like about what you've said, and it's kind of like a bit of an under current you've, 990 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,510 you've mentioned it a couple of times is whenever you want to know 991 00:52:45,515 --> 00:52:49,980 something, you tend to go and find an expert in that field and either 992 00:52:49,980 --> 00:52:53,880 get them onto your podcast or work with them in some kind of mentorship. 993 00:52:55,904 --> 00:52:58,395 um, is that kind of one of your life philosophers? 994 00:52:58,395 --> 00:53:00,884 Like, let me go and learn from other people. 995 00:53:02,055 --> 00:53:04,544 Yeah, I think that's really important because it can 996 00:53:04,544 --> 00:53:06,225 speeds up the learning process. 997 00:53:06,225 --> 00:53:11,504 So if you have to learn everything by yourself, it it'll take a lot of time. 998 00:53:11,504 --> 00:53:16,455 And, uh, it's interesting because I just talk to a guy who, who is more 999 00:53:16,455 --> 00:53:20,774 successful than me in business, let's say, and he learns everything by himself. 1000 00:53:21,645 --> 00:53:24,615 And I'm really curious where we'll, we will be in 15. 1001 00:53:25,290 --> 00:53:30,660 Yeah, so it's possible, but it's really hard and you must be smart. 1002 00:53:30,899 --> 00:53:32,040 Learn quickly, all of that. 1003 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:37,560 So I'm a bigger fan of, uh, hiring people or if you cannot hire at least 1004 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:42,330 to hire a consult and then that person will tell you the 80 20 of that area. 1005 00:53:43,169 --> 00:53:43,290 Yeah. 1006 00:53:43,290 --> 00:53:47,939 Because if you have to dig out the information yourself and learn it by 1007 00:53:47,939 --> 00:53:49,649 yourself, that takes the most time. 1008 00:53:49,830 --> 00:53:50,370 So. 1009 00:53:50,924 --> 00:53:51,345 Yeah, 1010 00:53:51,645 --> 00:53:52,305 no brilliant. 1011 00:53:52,365 --> 00:53:52,935 I like it. 1012 00:53:53,235 --> 00:53:57,015 I like the, uh, you, you come across Daniel as a very humble guy, actually. 1013 00:53:57,015 --> 00:53:57,884 And I quite like that. 1014 00:53:57,884 --> 00:54:01,214 And, and the willingness to learn from other people is a, is a good sign of that. 1015 00:54:01,214 --> 00:54:04,904 So, um, listen, thank you for being on the show. 1016 00:54:04,904 --> 00:54:08,085 Thank you for sharing your wisdom and insight. 1017 00:54:08,089 --> 00:54:09,435 If people wanna reach out to you. 1018 00:54:09,910 --> 00:54:11,410 People want to connect with you? 1019 00:54:11,589 --> 00:54:12,609 How do they do that? 1020 00:54:12,670 --> 00:54:13,330 What's the best way. 1021 00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:14,440 Yeah. 1022 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,759 So check out our website, the budaimedia.com. 1023 00:54:17,950 --> 00:54:22,299 And I ask you to put the link into the description because Budai is my name and 1024 00:54:22,305 --> 00:54:24,190 I know it's difficult for some people. 1025 00:54:24,670 --> 00:54:28,960 We also have our Facebook group it's, uh, top written top 1026 00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:30,549 eCommerce retention, marketing. 1027 00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:32,130 You can find it. 1028 00:54:32,130 --> 00:54:34,770 And I think these, these two are the main channels, 1029 00:54:35,220 --> 00:54:36,060 the two main ways. 1030 00:54:36,060 --> 00:54:40,860 So the, the website, Budai the Budai Media group, which is B U D A I, if 1031 00:54:40,860 --> 00:54:44,970 you wanna know how to spell it and the, the Facebook group and like dang 1032 00:54:44,970 --> 00:54:48,870 requested, we will, of course put all of those links in the chat, man. 1033 00:54:48,875 --> 00:54:50,700 Our show notes, just gonna be full of links this week. 1034 00:54:50,700 --> 00:54:51,210 It's just one. 1035 00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:54,830 Uh, of links, but you can get that, uh, full free at the 1036 00:54:54,830 --> 00:54:57,940 website, uh, eCommercepodcast.net. 1037 00:54:58,490 --> 00:55:01,910 Um, Daniel just quickly tell folks about your podcast. 1038 00:55:03,170 --> 00:55:03,500 Sure. 1039 00:55:03,500 --> 00:55:07,370 So the e-com show and I launched it almost two years ago. 1040 00:55:07,370 --> 00:55:13,220 I think we will have the second, the third year we have started next month 1041 00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:19,965 and, and, uh, we just had our 100 episode with Ezra Firestone and, uh, Basically, 1042 00:55:19,965 --> 00:55:25,545 I invite eCommerce business owners, agencies, marketers in this field. 1043 00:55:25,545 --> 00:55:31,365 And I ask them to talk about their, uh, you know, mindset, how they 1044 00:55:31,370 --> 00:55:33,735 started their journey in eCommerce. 1045 00:55:33,915 --> 00:55:39,255 And we also share valuable tactics strategies, what to implement 1046 00:55:39,375 --> 00:55:41,505 tips and hacks, all of that. 1047 00:55:41,850 --> 00:55:45,779 And, uh, make sure you check it out if you want to learn more. 1048 00:55:46,090 --> 00:55:48,450 Yeah the income show do check it out is a great show. 1049 00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:50,700 Uh, and very helpful. 1050 00:55:51,009 --> 00:55:51,299 I. 1051 00:55:52,005 --> 00:55:53,055 eCommerce entrepreneurs. 1052 00:55:53,055 --> 00:55:55,545 And like, we talked about the best way to learn something is to go and learn 1053 00:55:55,545 --> 00:55:56,685 from somebody who's done it before. 1054 00:55:56,835 --> 00:55:58,545 Uh, just, you know, putting that out there. 1055 00:55:58,545 --> 00:56:02,955 And this is why I love this show because I get to talk to people who have expertise 1056 00:56:02,955 --> 00:56:04,845 and insight in these areas like Daniel. 1057 00:56:04,850 --> 00:56:08,055 And, uh, I've got again, pages and pages of notes, uh, to talk to the 1058 00:56:08,055 --> 00:56:09,285 team about, which is wonderful. 1059 00:56:09,975 --> 00:56:10,545 So. 1060 00:56:10,884 --> 00:56:11,275 Daniel. 1061 00:56:11,279 --> 00:56:15,384 Thank you so much, uh, for being with us really appreciate it, but, and 1062 00:56:15,505 --> 00:56:17,694 always great to reconnect with you. 1063 00:56:18,025 --> 00:56:19,645 Uh, yeah, appreciate it. 1064 00:56:19,765 --> 00:56:22,255 Uh, have a, have a fantastic day in, in Hungary. 1065 00:56:23,065 --> 00:56:23,665 Thank you. 1066 00:56:23,815 --> 00:56:26,154 I wish the same two of you and to every listeners. 1067 00:56:27,465 --> 00:56:28,815 So there you have it. 1068 00:56:28,845 --> 00:56:31,215 What a phenomenal conversation. 1069 00:56:31,215 --> 00:56:31,545 Huge. 1070 00:56:31,545 --> 00:56:34,185 Thanks again to Daniel for joining me today. 1071 00:56:34,485 --> 00:56:37,455 Uh, and also a big shout out to today's sponsor-. 1072 00:56:37,455 --> 00:56:43,305 the eCommerce cohort do head over to eCommercecohort.com for more information 1073 00:56:43,575 --> 00:56:49,155 about this new type of community, which you can join at amazing rates. 1074 00:56:49,155 --> 00:56:52,125 Now be sure to subscribe where you get your podcast. 1075 00:56:52,580 --> 00:56:56,509 Because as always, we've got some great episodes, uh, some great 1076 00:56:56,509 --> 00:56:59,630 conversations lined up, uh, and I don't want you to miss any of them. 1077 00:57:00,319 --> 00:57:00,470 And. 1078 00:57:01,815 --> 00:57:03,884 In case no one has told you yet today. 1079 00:57:04,035 --> 00:57:06,525 You, my friend are awesome. 1080 00:57:06,675 --> 00:57:07,515 Yes, you are. 1081 00:57:07,995 --> 00:57:12,134 Now the eCommerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media you can 1082 00:57:12,140 --> 00:57:15,945 find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app. 1083 00:57:16,005 --> 00:57:16,665 The team. 1084 00:57:17,165 --> 00:57:21,705 The fabulous team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon Josh Catchpole, 1085 00:57:21,725 --> 00:57:23,645 Estella Robin, and Tim Johnson. 1086 00:57:24,005 --> 00:57:28,085 A theme song is written by me and my son, Josh Edmundson. 1087 00:57:28,415 --> 00:57:32,615 Uh, and if you would like to read the transcript, all show notes, head over to 1088 00:57:32,615 --> 00:57:38,345 the website, ecommercepodcast.net where you can also sign up for our newsletter. 1089 00:57:38,945 --> 00:57:40,235 So that's it from me. 1090 00:57:40,235 --> 00:57:42,605 Thank you so much for joining us. 1091 00:57:42,605 --> 00:57:44,315 Have a fantastic week. 1092 00:57:44,375 --> 00:57:45,245 See you next time. 1093 00:57:45,605 --> 00:57:45,785 Bye for.