Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G, and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today, this is Episode Three of our Season One series, State of Ohio versus Steffen Baldwin. And this episode is named "Who is Steffen Baldwin", because some of our followers may know some things about him. But I don't know that anybody really knows who Steffen was or is. So today we're gonna learn a little bit about him. Uh, just a reminder for our listeners, the series talks about sensitive topics such as animal abuse and domestic violence. So take care of yourself if there's a part of this podcast that is hard for you to listen, take a break, hit the fast forward button, and, you know, come back when, come back where you're ready. Um, today we have a really special guest. We have author James Renner here to discuss with us about Steffen. Thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the Junction.

Yeah, no, thank you very much for having me. It's, it's interesting, I, I met you in court and, uh, I remember giving you a card and, um, it, I did not know the kind of tornado of activity that would follow that, that, that meeting. And then, you know, here, here we are talking about it, you know, a couple months later and it's still one of the most bizarre stories I've ever heard.

Yeah. Right. And, and it's like the last episode was "The Rabbit Hole" because, I mean it is a rabbit hole and, and you could not ask for more different types of scams in one individual. Yes. As all the things that, that Steffen has done.

That's for sure. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, as I feel kind of like an archeologist digging into his past and trying to figure out like what's, what's authentic and, and what's not, what's stuff that he just made up and it's been very difficult. But I do have a, a little insight into, you know, who he was and, and where he came from.

For members of our audience that may not know who you are, can you let them know who you are and what you normally do?

Um, my name's James Renner. Uh, I'm a native Ohioan. I live here in, uh, Akron, Ohio. And, uh, I am mostly known for, uh, my true crime books. Um, I started out as a reporter, uh, at a place up here called Scene, kind of like our village voice, uh, newspaper. And after, uh, Scene I be, I wrote books full time. I've written a couple novels, but mostly true crime. Books. I'm mostly known for my book on the disappearance of Maura Murray. Uh, it's called True Crime Addict, and it came out in 2016. And this is about, uh, a young woman who, um, was a student at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. And, in February of 2004, she emailed her professors and said, there's been a death in the family. Hold my work till the end of the week. And that was a lie. Nobody died in her family. She went to the bank, emptied out her bank account, which was only about 280 bucks or something, bought a bunch of liquor, way more liquor than like one person would need. Then drove up into the White Mountains of New Hampshire and around 7:30 that night, she crashed into a snowbank in front of like three houses on a country road. And so the people living in those homes heard the crash. They called 911. Between the time of the accident and when the first officer responded to the scene, it's a window of about five to seven minutes. And sometime in that span of five to seven minutes more disappears, never to be seen again. They never found a body. Uh, they don't know what happened to her. They don't even know why she was up in the MO mountains to begin with. But of course, uh, Maura, um, one thing you should know about her is before she became a student at University of Massachusetts Amherst, she was a cadet at West Point. And that becomes important in this story. Uh, so, um, yeah, I'm a journalist, I'm a writer. I've, I've a storyteller. That's, that's what I do.

Yeah. And you bringing this up, because that's kind of why we met, right? Like you, you were not at Steffen's sentencing necessarily because of the crimes that he had done about the animals, but it's because he is somewhat related to the Maura Murray story.

Correct, yes. So again, the book came out in 2016, and I still get tips sometimes about the case. I've got a website about the case, so people find me pretty easily. But over the years, those tips have kind of died off, uh, quite a bit. But I was in, in March, um, one day. It's a Thursday. I'm, I'm sitting, uh, working on my podcast and planning to have just a normal day. I got my cup of coffee. I sat down nine o'clock, I think it was 9:00 AM on the nose. My phone rings. And on the other end is, um, a, uh, a person who knows about the case and, uh, you know, it was a, became a source for the story. And they, they said, Hey, uh, do you want to, um. Can I tell you a story? And I, I'm always, you know, sure. You, you called me, you know, I, I'm assuming it's about a crime. Let's, let's talk. And they, they started telling me the story about Steffen Baldwin and, you know, everything that happened with these, these animals. And, you know, it was a terrible story, but I had no idea what it had to do with me. And, you know, we talked for about 20 minutes and finally I'm like. You know, um, I, you know, I had this thought even like, oh, I'm, you know, I gotta find a way to get out of this conversation 'cause you know, this doesn't have anything to do with what I'm doing. And then this person tells me that, um, after they happened to know that after, uh, Baldwin was arrested, the police entered his fingerprints into aphis, which is the database that the FBI keeps for fingerprints, and the next day. The New Hampshire State Police called police here in Ohio and said, Hey, uh, we got a match to this fingerprint that you just put up in our database, and it's a match to the unsolved disappearance of Maura Murray. And so suddenly my ears perked up. I'm like, oh, okay. I know why this person is calling me now. So when Maura Murray got into that accident, they processed the car and they dusted it for prints. Somewhere inside the car, and I've been told by, by Steffen himself that it was found on a CD or CD case that that's where they found his fingerprint. I have not been able to confirm that with with police, so I don't know for sure if that's where his fingerprint was, but they found his fingerprint connected to the case. And the lead detective at the time for the Maura Murray case was a man named Chuck West. And when he spoke to police here in Ohio, he told them Steffen had become his number one suspect in the case. And so suddenly I'm like, wow, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta see if I can, what's going on with Steffen. I gotta see if I can talk to this guy. And I was told that his sentencing was that very day. And uh, you know, coincidentally it's here in Ohio, you know, I think it was about a two hour drive from me, so. I jumped in the car right away and I drove down to the courthouse. I'm not gonna pass up that opportunity. And so I get to the courthouse about a half an hour before the sentencing, and I walk into the courthouse and, uh, you know, it's a, a Union County right? Is where it was. Yeah. And it's a, yeah. Correct. I mean, it's a very small courthouse. It's a, um, and so there, there's not a lot of places to go anyways. I, I walk into the courthouse. Walk upstairs and there's Steffen standing outside the courtroom doors next to his lawyer. And I go up and introduce myself and uh, and I realized this is probably the only opportunity I'm gonna get to talk to this guy. So I started asking him questions right away. I said, you, do you remember Maura Murray? And he said, yes. He said they met at West Point when they were both cadets there. This would've been back in 2001, 2000, 2001. Maura Murray was a cadet, Steffen was there, and, uh, he said they met there and he was very, very fond of her. He, he cared a lot for her. And, I then learned that when they kind of met when she got in trouble at West Point. Uh, one of the times she got in trouble at West Point, and according to Steffen, and I'd heard this rumor before, but Maura was found, uh, after a night of partying, found passed out on the lawn, uh, on, on campus. And that's a big, that's a, that's a big deal. That's a big infraction. So she had to go in front of the judicial review board. And Steffen was one of the students that was helping with that, that process, and helped her through the process of the judicial review board. And they, for whatever reason, connected, um, you know, that's kind of a pattern in Steffen's life, you know, these, these women that, that he meets and quickly becomes, um, closer with, uh, and. Uh, that's what, that's what happened there. He, um, you know, they, he said that he was in a relationship with Maura for a little while and, uh, there is a little bit of proof of that, uh, because, um, they both got in trouble one day when another cadet walked into Steffen's room and discovered Maura and Steffen in bed. At West Point, it's a big deal. If you're caught, the, the way they refer to it is if you're on the same horizontal surface as a member of the opposite sex, that's, that's a big infraction. So, uh, Steffen got into some trouble for that and, and so did Maura. Um, and, you know, so they, uh, essentially they were kind of hooking up, you know, as, as young people do. And he wanted, wanted it to be a little bit more, and thought that maybe it was, but then one day they're on a bus traveling somewhere and he asks her to sit with him and she, she says, no, I've, I'm kind of seeing this other guy. And that's when she went over and sat next to this guy named Bill Roush, who she ends up in a very, um, long-term relationship with. And he was her boyfriend at the time of the disappearance. So, um, you know, he has this interaction with Maura and I, you know, I said, well, hey, you know, how'd your fingerprint get in her car when she went missing? Because you knew her in 2001 and she went missing in 2004. Um, and he, and he said, that's when he said that the FBI who talked to him just a year ago, by the way, he was, you know, so he is still interesting to the investigation. Um, they, he says that they told him his fingerprint was found on a cd and he's like, yeah, we used to, you know. When we were hanging out, I'd make CDs for her, I'd burn CDs, and I'd give it to her. Um, you know, it as kind of like a mix tape, and he says, so that's, that's why my CD's on the car, uh, in the car. Or why my fingerprint's in the car. But, you know, I have a lot of questions about that, you know, the least of which is like, how long does a fingerprint, uh, stay on a cd? Uh, especially one that, you know, more of a, if you're listening to those CDs a lot, my biggest question is, was it on the CD that was actually in the player at the time of the accident? That would be very interesting to me, but the police have been very quiet about that. Um, oh, one other thing about West Point that I found interesting is that Steffen, neither Steffen nor Maura actually completed West Point, and they both left this institution that you fight really hard to get into. They both left within like a week or two of each other. Steffen left in December of 2001 and Maura left in January of 2002. Um, the reason she, she left is she was, uh, she got caught stealing from the commissary at Fort Knox and they were going to remove her from the Corps of Cadets. Uh, but they allowed her to withdraw before her, you know, quote unquote sentencing. So she had to leave. Um, he, it was kind of his choice to leave. And, and for somebody like Steffen who really doesn't like to fail in anything, um, there's, that's a big question for me. Like, why did Steffen leave West Point when he only had two years to, to go? Um. So, and, and maybe he even had less, he might have been three years into it, I don't know. Um, so yeah, so that's, that's his intersection with the Maura Murray case. And so since I've learned that, I've been doing a, a lot of research into who this guy is and where he comes from, and, you know, I can, I'm happy to go into that a little bit.

No, absolutely. I mean, and you know, people. Ask me about, this is really interesting, do you think that he could have hurt a person or whatever. But I do veterinary forensics and I know that there's a link between animal cruelty and interpersonal violence, and somebody that's cruel to animals can be violent to people as well. So we'll see how, how this develop and hopefully we can have a bonus episode at the end of the series about, yeah, Steffen and and Maura, so. Sure. Guess what I let, let's start at the beginning, like, who was Steffen, uh, as a child? Like what was his upbringing?

So it's my understanding that, um, and I have talked to Steffen's father. I had a, I had a short interview with him. Um, so it's coming from that. It's also coming from Steffen's autobiography, which I was able to get a copy of. He was, he had written like more than a hundred pages of this. Autobiography that he was keeping in on his computer. And that became a part of discovery in this whole case. It was part of what they swiped from the computer. So I was able to read that and that gave some insight too. But, um, so, you know, he comes from a, um, a big family, but at the beginning it was just him and his older brother and they both had the same mom and dad, uh, lived in New Jersey at the time. And his parents went through a very contentious divorce when Steffen was still young. And, um, uh, he and his brother and his mom kind of disappeared for a while. Uh, his mom kind of absconded with the boys and his father didn't know where she was for, for a while. And then he gets a call one day and it's from the mother, Barbara. His mom's name is Barbara and she calls him from California and says, we've moved to California. Um, you know, the boys need you. Uh, and so to his credit, he was living in New York at the time, I believe upstate. He moves to California, upends his life, and, and moves to be closer to the boys. Uh, and, coincidentally, he was in the animal, uh, care business. You know, he's running a, um, a, a, a non, I believe it was a nonprofit too. But he was, he was working with animal care, uh, out there, and he ends up taking custody of the brother and Steffen stays with his mother. And that ends up having a big impact on his life. Because according to him, his mother was very abusive, would often hit him, would always yell at him. They lived in dirt poor neighborhoods, uh, around LA, so it was also dangerous. He said, uh, you know, in his autobiography he talks about just reading books at home. And because he, there's, it was too dangerous to go outside to play. That's kind of, but you know, because of all that reading, he excelled at school, which is how he eventually gets on the track of getting into the West Point Academy that feeds in, or the west. It's kind of a West Point prep school that feeds into, that's how he gets into the West Point, um, academy. So, uh, he, you know, he, he's very, very intelligent. Um. He had definitely been abused in his childhood. He has a very contentious relationship with his mother. Um, and it was a rough, you know, no doubt about it. He had a very rough childhood and, um, you know, there were, it sounds like there were times that if they weren't homeless, they were pretty darn close to it. Uh, he was homeless for a time as an adult around the time that Maura went missing. Um, there is a chunk of time, from when he leaves West Point in December of 2001 to when he, he starts popping up again like around 2005. And by then he's living in California again. There's, there's chunk of like three years where it's really hard to find anything out about the guy. Um, but he eventually marries a, a woman out in California. That's how, in a way, he comes to Ohio because she was originally from Ohio. They started having trouble in their relationship. Um, he claims that she was abusive to him, um, just like his mother. Um, and they end up moving to ohio to try to save the marriage. They get to Ohio, they, they get, they break up, they get divorced. And that's, that's kind of what leads him here. And that's when he starts getting involved with the animals here in Ohio. Um, there are a couple weird things about his, his family. His mother's missing. Um, which when I first heard that, I'm like, really like, and, but I looked into it and sure enough, nobody's really heard from the mom since about 2007. I. Uh, you know, it's strange. Uh, when I talked to his father, he said, you know, he said something strange too. He said, yeah, nobody's heard from her since 2007. As far as I know, she could be dead and buried in the desert, which is very, you know, that's kind of an odd, very specific jump to make. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I don't know what's up with that. Steffen, from what I understand, turned down some offers from people that, uh, offered to try to find her. Um, and then here's another odd thing about Steffen and the timing around the Maura Murray case. He so in Maura disappears in February, 2004. About, so that happens in February. In, I think August, later that summer, he starts applying to change his name because when he was at West Point and all the way up until, uh, the end of 2004, he was known as Steffen Finkelstein, and everybody at West Point remembers him as, as Finkelstein or Fink, you know, they called him. And so, but then just a couple months after Maura disappears, he, this adult man is like, I gotta change my name. And that's when he becomes Steffen Baldwin. Uh, Baldwin was his mother's maiden name, and when somebody asks him, he's like, well, I did that to honor my mother, you know, the mother who's now missing. And, you know, he doesn't really seem too interested in trying to track her path. Uh, yeah. So it's, it's very strange the timing of that name change. It's very rare for a man to change their name, you know? Um, especially at that age. I've seen it with like teens and, and children who, you know, wanna honor their, like, adopted father or something. But, you know, the dude's like, what, 24 years old at the time? Um, 23, somewhere around there. So, yeah. It's, you know, everything about this guy's strange. But, so to sum it up, he, he, he had an abusive background. In his autobiography, he talks a lot about how he puts on this mask of being this happy, easy to like type of guy, but inside, you know, it's, it's dark and he doesn't really understand himself. Um, and he judges people and thinks he's smarter than everybody else. And, uh, you know, he, in his autobiography says that he always thought he'd end up either homeless or dead or in prison, and he just has this sense of doom that that's where his life is gonna lead. Like. Why do you think that, you know, why, what is it that's happened that you think that that's the, the outcome of your life? And I guess now, you know, he, he was right. You know, he's in prison.

Yeah. And I know that he, he often mentioned about her, his mom having mental health problems. I think he even said that she was bipolar and then she was either into drugs and or alcohol. So that was part of the, part of the problem that he had with her growing up. And I remember him being on a, on a podcast. Um. That he was talking about how he enrolled in the military because he needed to get away from his mom.

Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah. And, but

then you're gonna change your name to your mother's name, right. Why do you do that?

It's, yeah, exactly. It's like this person is abusing me and, uh, you know, has made my life miserable. And I ran away from her. And, and he changed his name before he, she disappeared.

Yeah. Yeah. Very bizarre.

The, the other thing that that is of interest is like you see patterns repeating, right? When people have traumas in childhood, then they can potentially bring those traumas into adulthood and either be a victim or victimized. And it feels like his relationships with women, uh, I mean, he talks about himself being a victim with his wife, whether that's true or not. We don't know, but his relationships with other girlfriends, it's almost like he was making them into his mother.

Oh yeah. I could definitely see that. I don't think that's a big leap at all. I've talked to a couple of his former girlfriends and he was abusive. You know, he was a very scary individual. He lived with a woman out in California for a while. I think, I think it was even like after he knew he was under investigation here in Ohio, um, and that he probably knew this indictment was coming down. He entered into this relationship and kind of tricked this woman into thinking he was somebody he was not. And uh, she is so upset, she was very nice, but she cannot talk about it yet. You know, she can't talk about anything that happened yet because she's still processing the, what he put her through. Um, there was a, a girlfriend here in Ohio that I spoke to that says he pulled a gun on her. Um, and that, you know, was, was same thing, just a scary guy when he'd, when he'd take that mask off and show them who he really was. So, um, yeah. Uh, and, but, so I don't think it's a big leap that he was, you, you know, that these women were in some way, like a substitute for his mother and trying to act out like how in his mind he, he should have acted to her back in the day. I can definitely see that.

Yeah. Kind of like he was, uh, you know, he was a child and he was. Unable to defend himself from his mom and now he's, you know, getting, getting women who are vulnerable, who are young and then getting them in this path of destruction and you know, to a point then standing up to them. Yeah. And, you know, taking it out on them the way that maybe he wishes that he had done to his mom, or, I mean, his mom is missing maybe what he did to his mom.

Well, you know, he also has two former girlfriends who are dead. I, I, strike that. You know, maybe three. You know, we don't know what happened to Maura. Um, but the two here in Ohio, although, you know, very unlikely he had anything directly to do with it. You know, the police believe it was the way he treated these women that led them to, you know, one had a, a, an a car accident. She was, she had, um, drugs in her system, the other, you know, overdosed. And she was sober before Steffen pulled her into his, um, influence and it messed her up. And, you know, you know the story better than I do, but you know, it's one guy who is the common link to three, you know, to, to two dead women and two missing women. Uh, you know, you at some point you have to like, ask yourself like, what are the, you know, what are the odds? For, for all that to be innocent. Um, you know, who, who else is connected to that, that much, you know, just bad things. And, and Carmen, and we haven't even talked about the animals, you know, and this guy left a path of destruction in his wake. I.

And, you know, again, that's where I, I wouldn't doubt if he's related to anything with Maura or his mom or anything like that, just because it, it follows a pattern. And, and he was very good at showing, like, he even says his mask, you know, he would go in front of of people and be very well spoken and listen and process and understand what you wanted. And then. That was what he wanted as well. Yeah. Right. So your goals were his goals, and that's how he got, you know, the trust of a lot of people. But on the inside he was a, a very dark person.

Yeah. I also think, you know, he talks in his autobiography a little bit about how he, he doesn't really even know, you know who he is. You know, that I, I think whatever, like the, the original Steffen that was in there, I think got lost through all the abuse and everything else that happened, and I think he was becoming aware of that. I don't think Steffen knew who he was. Um, and I, I think that was a, a major source of, of conflict inside his mind. Um, it's, it's certainly interesting, uh, so you know whether or not he, is it, what I'm interested in is trying to figure out if I can link him to Maura after they left West Point and I asked him, when we talked that day at the courthouse, I said, did you, you know, did, did you ever see Maura again after West Point? And he said, no, no, no, no, no. That was the last time I saw her. He said, uh, in fact, I've never been north of Connecticut. But in his, uh, in some of his text messages, he's talking about places that he'd loved to live, and one of them is New Hampshire, where more Murray disappeared. And that's a weird thing to say, like if you haven't ever been there, like how would you know you'd like it enough to wanna live there? But that's not proof. Um, but he did lie when he said he is never been north of Connecticut. I did find out that he was at a party with some West Point cadets in Boston, but that might be, you know, maybe he didn't count that because it was just a weekend and not too far north anyways. Um, but, you know, he, he definitely was.

Another of the things is like the relationship with his dad, right? Mm. Like there's, there's a lot with that, including the fact that he hired somebody to find his dad. Is that, is that correct?

I. I never found anything about him trying to track down his dad. I think I remember hearing that rumor, but as far as like the stuff on his computer from, I mean, I was able to find his dad in about five minutes. You know, he's not that difficult to track down, so it's a weird thing for him to say. Um, and uh, I did, when I did talk to his dad, I could tell that his dad does care for Steffen, because I was, I was the one that told his dad that Steffen was in prison. He, he didn't know that. And I talked to him, I think, uh, Baldwin was sentenced on a Thursday. And then I talked to, I think I talked to the dad on a Saturday. Um, so it was still pretty new. And when I told him that his son was in prison, you know, for maybe 15 years, uh, you could, it took the wind out of him, you know? Which is weird when put next to Steffen's autobiography because there are stories in there about his father. He claims that his father was abusive. Um, and there's a letter that he wrote to his father that's just scathing. But, uh, I, other than like him not adopting Steffen, um, and from my understanding it was Steffen's choice to stay with his mother. But, um, I can't find anything that suggests that the father was actually abusive or dangerous the way that Steffen makes him out to be.

I mean, if Steffen made the choice, why did he made the choice to stay with his mom versus go with his dad and is it like a regret that he made the wrong decision. Mm-hmm. And he has to say, well, I didn't go with him because he was abusive.

Yes. You know? Yeah. My hunch is that, that he made that decision because there was, you know, his father would've supervised him, you know, that, but with his mother, there, there was no supervision. You know, there was, there was no money and, you know, hard to get food, but at least she wasn't telling him, you know? Um, she wasn't, I don't know, he could pretty much do what he wanted as long as he stayed inside and, and read his books.

In some of the future episodes we're gonna be talking to people from, um, Top of Ohio Shelter, TOPS which is somewhere that he worked for a bit of time. And one of the, one of the issues that they were having was about how he, like he wouldn't show up to work or he came into work and would disappear, uh, for hours and, and not clock in. And he admits to some of that in his biography, right?

Yeah. In his biography, he very clear about what he was doing. He's like, "yeah, I was supposed to be at work. And, you know, uh, I instead I'd blow off, you know, these, these people that were counting on me and go home and spend the day watching porn and masturbating and getting high", you know, and, uh, there was a part of him very clearly that not entirely in control of his compulsions. And I'm, I'm, I'm glad you mentioned this too, you know that the times that he isn't where he is supposed to be because his girlfriends too, Talk about how he would take these trips and disappear for sometimes a week at a time. Didn't know where, where they were. There was one girlfriend he had in here in Ohio where he took off on a trip and you know, it three or four days into it, you know, he left her to take care of the dogs, and you know, she's having a hard time. So she calls him and he yells at her for interrupting his "me time", you know, for, for his alone time. And, and he's traveling the country. He's just like driving around the country. Um, and the, when I heard about that, of course my mind goes to Israel Keys, you know, this, this famous serial killer who would just, uh, same thing. You know, he had kind of a normal life, but he would just disappear sometimes and he would disappear and take these, he would take a flight and then he'd rent a car from wherever he landed, and he'd drive a thousand miles and commit these crimes and then drive back. And like he was trying to cover his tracks. I'm not saying that, that that's, that's who Steffen is. I don't know. But these actions are the actions of a sociopath, you know, and, and somebody capable of being that type of person.

I think that sociopath is the, is the right word for him because, you know, sociopaths lack empathy. They take advantage of people and they have no cares for the harm that they're causing to people. Yeah. Um, and those are some of the things that we're gonna discuss as well is like, you know, some of the people that he harmed, like he stole money from a homeless person, like. Who does that, right? And, and he just moves on and doesn't care like the people that he was taking the animals and he's doing these things and he's hurting them and he doesn't care. His girlfriends, you know, and, and he, he talks about how he was so affected by, uh, his one girlfriend's death in particular, but he never showed that actual, you know, being upset. It's again, just telling people what he feels that they wanna hear or they need to hear to believe him. Yeah,

I don't think he understands what the emotions are, or empathy is. Like, it's, it's even more than like, lacking it. I don't think he understands what it is. Um, and you know, I, I'm sure a lot of that can be attributed to the abuse in, in childhood, but, um. He's definitely a, a very interesting psychological study for somebody. You know, even the, how he drifted into the field of caring for these dangerous, potentially dangerous animals is interesting to me because one, it's what his dad did and, you know, according to him, he hated, his dad. Never wanted to be like him, but he, he did the exact same thing his dad did. But also like, does he feel some sort of kinship with these, with these animals? Because he knows like, is that what he is? You know, is he a dangerous animal that is trying to be rehabilitated, trying to be better? Um, I think there's a very interesting parallel with, with that. But I don't know. Yeah. Well, I'm not a psychologist. Right.

And and the scary part of that though is that if that's what he was doing, you know, he was ending up giving these happy stories of adoption and rehabilitation, but in reality, he was killing these dogs. Yeah. So what, you know, if he's looking at it that way, what was his end game like? You know, is, was he just trying to, to find the happy place? And if not, then that was the end.

I always wonder that is the, for as a true crime writer, that is the most fascinating question for me. I'm always wondering about what these men's end games are. Um, any, any serial killer, but any conman too, they get so deep into it, there's no way it can end well and. So, and that had to be going through his mind at some point. He passed a point of no return and, you know, had to know that it was gonna catch up to him. And, um, you know, I was thinking about this the other day and somebody had a quote from a movie I. And I'm trying to remember what movie it is and I, I, I'm drawing a blank, but the, the quote, you know, this person went up to, oh, I know what it was. It was, uh, the, the movie was Children of Men. Have you ever seen it?

Yes, I have

very good sci-fi, but like grounded in reality movie. And there's this, uh, businessman, you know, dealer who, you know, the world is falling apart. He's gathered like priceless art in his, in his house, and he's still like conning people. And the the main character goes up to him and says, you know, how do you think this ends? Like, aren't you, you know, don't you know that like you, you shouldn't be having a good time, that this is not gonna end well for you. And what he says in response is, I just don't think about it. I think that's, that's what these people are like. They just don't think about it. Um, and if you can put those blinders on, you can pretend that the end is not gonna come.

And I mean, for him, he got away with things for such a long period of time. Right. That if you can get away with it and then you step it up. You get away with that and you step it up and you get away with it. I mean, it's never ending. Like he's, he's getting reinforced by those around him that he can do whatever he wants with zero consequence to his actions.

Yeah. I wonder like if we could peak five years into the future, like how much more we, we will know, you know, about what he's responsible for and how long he is gotten away with that stuff.

No. Absolutely. Do you think, you know, like he, he talks about the reasons that he moved, um, or he stayed in Ohio was because of his kid, but then he went to California. Like, is there anything on his autobiography or anything that talks about him as a father, how he sees himself as a father?

Yeah, he talks about that a little bit, um, in that like the first time he felt any sort of empathy and emotion was when his son was born. But I gotta tell you, I don't know that I believe that either. And, and here's, here's why. Because there's, um, evidence from other witnesses and his texts and emails where, um, you know, he's driving around in the, in his car with his son completely high out of his mind. And, um, but he has a rule that like, he won't get high if there's, there's somebody else's kid is in there with him. But he doesn't care if it's his own kid, you know? So maybe he felt a little something, but, you know, even with his own kid, you know, he's putting his, his son in danger without really caring about it. And he is, you know, when somebody questions him about it, he's like, no, it's my kid. What, you know, I can do whatever I want.

Yeah. And well, and when he, when he. Fled to California thinking that he was gonna be able to avoid the investigation and the charges here in Ohio, you, I, I have a kid that is about his son's age, and to me, I would not move. I don't care about the job. I don't care about what I. Waits for me on the other end if I'm so attached to my child that I wanna stay with them. Right? Yeah. I either take my kid with me or I stick around until my kid is an adult and then he can make his own decisions and then I can, I can move on. So that was kind of out of character for somebody that says that he loves his kids so much.

Yeah, you don't, yeah, you don't abandon your kid, you know, no matter what. Um, I think that's very telling.

Yeah. And, and for somebody who feels that he himself was abandoned or he was not treated well, right, yeah. You would think that he more than anybody would wanna shelter if he truly feels that way.

You know, something else that I noticed, um, you know, especially after reading all this stuff, uh, that he even says in his own words, you know, he's, so, even after all of this, I know he's a dangerous person. Um, I know he's done terrible things, but when I met him outside the courtroom that day, he's charming. You know, he has a way of talking to you and looking in your eyes that puts you, at least at me, at that moment when he wants to, puts you at ease. And I find found myself like, feeling a little sorry for him for a moment. Um, and because he, you know, one reason is he was acting like he was walking out of the courtroom that day. You know, I'm like, you know, have you made plans? Are you, you know, taking care of yourself? He's like, oh yeah, it'll be fine. You know, I'm not worried. And then he, you know, he goes in there and he's not getting out for, you know, 15, 15 and a half years. Um, so he, even with all that turmoil inside, he has a way to mask and present as if he's done nothing wrong and it's believable. He's got some sort of magic charisma, you know,

I mean, some of the, well-known serial killers. That's how they got their victims, right.

Ted Bundy. Yeah. You know, handsome and could convince you to do anything.

Exactly. And you know, he has the, the whole, his charisma and then he picked the right, the right field animals. Because that's where, you know, a lot of people, people that, that care about animals, like care about animals. Yeah. And it's, and sadly, it's easy to take advantage of somebody that, that wants to see the best for these animals.

It ended up working out very poorly for him too, because that community is also very, like when you do something wrong to an animal, they will unite and burn the world down to come after you, you know, which is what he found out in the in the end there.

Does he talk at any point in his autobiography or anywhere that you have listened about his real feelings as far as animals and the, you know, the taking care of animals, sheltering training, that kind of stuff?

Not that I've seen, no. Um, which is odd now that you mention it. Um, I don't know that he is. It, it, I don't know if he feels that or, or processes. I, I, I wish I could take a peek inside his mind, but it seemed very transactional to him. Um, but you would, you would know that better than me. I mean, it, I, I think the way he defended some of these, um, some of these animals that, that died at, you know, uh, because of his influence, um, at the very least. Um, you know, oh, they were, you know, um, they were dangerous anyways, or, you know, they, you know, it's a dog, you know, it's a, I don't know. It was very odd.

Yeah. That was, I know what to

make of it.

I know that was something really interesting in that podcast that, that he spoke with. That, you know, he, he talks about how animals need rehabilitated, and how he can learn about a dog and all that stuff. But then later on during it, he says like that, like, it's just a dog. Like it's, it's what they do. Like, you know, you can't, you can't change them, you can't fix them. And he talks about how the best predictor of an animal's future actions is their past actions.

Mm-hmm.

But he also is trying to say that this dog bit, but that doesn't mean that it's gonna bite again. So like all this contradiction of things.

Yeah. Yeah. That's why I don't think there's, it's almost like there's, there's no like core to, to, to his psyche. You know? It just kind of like pivots to like whoever he's talking to or whatever he needs to get out of the situation. But somewhere deep down they're, they're, you know, I don't know what that person is. Um, yeah. Yeah. Again, a very interesting psychological study, at the very least.

Yeah. Knowing him and, you know, knowing all the, all the lies that he, that he said and all the things that he did, and how he got away with things, that, that was the first time that I really kind had a good look into him was during that podcast. Even though I don't feel that he was telling the truth, I could see how he had analyzed. Oh yeah, the host. Sure. And he was telling the host, I mean, he was one with the host, right? Yeah. Like every, every experience that the host had, he had, yeah. And it's like, yeah, man, me too. Me too, me too. And he bonded with this guy and he just read him perfectly and he just told him everything that he wanted to hear. And that's where, you know, like some of the things that. In one place he says is not okay. And that interview was okay because that's where he felt that he needed to go. So really, really good at reading people. Absolutely. And that's why he was able to get away with things for so long.

Absolutely. I, I think, um, when I met him, you know, there was, this has happened just a couple times in my life with, with true crime reporting, where I meet a suspect. And, he was like this where I could tell he knew more about me within 10 seconds of meeting me and talking to me than I would ever know about him. Like it's a supernatural, almost way that these people have of reading another human being. To know like, what buttons to push, what things to say, what this person needs to hear. Um, I, I run into that just a couple times and it's always creeped me out. Um, but I never realized it until later. I'm like, oh. Oh, okay. Um. But was there ever a moment where you got like a, just a red flag or, or just a creepy feeling, a vibe or anything?

Yeah, I mean, when, like, to start with, when I met Steffen, I was giving a presentation on, I. I say like, like signs of animal neglect and I believe it was primarily in puppy mill dogs. And then he was presenting at that same, uh, that same day. And he was talking about like the, the role of the animal control officer and what people can do and. He, he saw that I was interested in animal cruelty and neglect. Like back then forensics was not a huge field and there wasn't a lot for me to do. I had started, uh, well actually not even at the, at that time I started working with, uh, Humane World for Animals, that was HSUS, years later. But he picked up on the fact that that's what I wanted to do, and I think he figured, Hey, I, I. I got this. Right? Yeah. Like he, he came to me and he's like, yeah, we can do this and boots on the ground and I can do the investigation and you can do the vetting. And in my eyes it was like perfect. Right? Like I met the, almost like the Mulder to the Scully, right? Yeah. Like that, that combination of people that have a same goal and they bring different things into that, that partnership.

Yeah.

And he, you know, and that's how he was able to take advantage of it. Now the, the thing with me is that I'm, I'm personally not a super trusting person. Like that's just the, the way I am. Uh, and I'm not also a very emotional person. So. He knows what to say or whatever. I never thought that he was cute. I was never attracted to him. I was never like, you know, into that. So he, he didn't have that over me that he had over other people

Yeah.

That wanted to be with him. Yeah. Like, I truly wanted a working relationship and a partnership. Sure. Um, so as we started working in different things, he started not, not doing the things that he was responsible for. And, and at first it's like, well, he's just, you know, scattered or irresponsible. Yeah. But it became a pattern.

Ah, so

little by little I started doing less and less with him. And then with money, it looked like he was not utilizing money properly. Yeah. And that he was spending money that was supposed to be for the nonprofit on personal stuff. Yeah. So I started distancing myself from it. Uh, I can say that I never in my wildest dreams thought or knew that he was doing the scam that he was doing as far as saying that the animals were adopted or that they were trained and rehabilitated and euthanizing them.

Ugh. Yeah.

Um, you know, like that was, that was a big hit for me because we euthanized some of these dogs. You know, there were a lot of other veterinarians that, that, that did it, and some other dogs died under unknown conditions.

Yeah. But.

It's the being used a weapon to kill, kill these dogs for him, right? Yeah. Um, so, you know, the, the manipulation to that point. Um, but yeah, I, it, it was, I would say I. It probably took a good year, and I feel like I worked with him for years. I worked with him for almost, for only about two years. Wow. And to me, it felt like an eternity. Sure. Right. Um, and, and yeah, it's, you know, as I said on my, uh, victim statement is, I have to admit that he had me con too. Yeah. He knew how to, he knew what I, what I needed and what I wanted. He pretended to be able to, to offer that to me. Yeah. Um, and you know, by the time we, we found out it was a little bit too late.

I wonder how he's doing, um, how a personality like that does in prison. Like sometimes, you know, that's the best place for them, the structure, the routine of it. Uh, but other times, like, it just, you know, they just can't handle it. And I, I like, I'm really wondering like, which, which, which, how that shakes out for him, you know?

Yeah. And it's, yeah, it'll, it'll take time to see how things go and if he is able to get off early or if he has to do his full sentencing. And even if he, or when he gets out, gonna be, it's gonna be interesting to see how that, how that goes for him.

And, and since he's incarcerated now, they, they do have his DNA on file, you know, if, if that were to ever, you know, have any sort of match, I mean, fingerprint and Maura Murray's car maybe can be explained away, but, you know, if, if they get, uh, in any sort of DNA, but again, we don't know what happened to Maura. We don't know that it's a murder. Um, we, you know, there's all sorts of possibilities on the table. All we know, you know, just like his mother, all we know is she's missing. Which again, is, you know, when you think about it, it's very hard. Um, people go missing, but usually they, they're found or their body is found and Maura has been missing since 2004. His mother's been missing since 2007. Nobody's found either body, which is very rare. Um, so yeah, that's something I wonder about too.

Yeah, it, it's, I mean, as you said, he is a very interesting psychological case. Yeah. And it would be, it would be very interesting if somebody decided to take that on and try to figure out what's going inside of, inside of his head, if anybody can get it in there.

Yeah.

Yeah, thank you for being here and, and again, hopefully we can have an update as far as your findings and let people catch up on, on Maura's story.

That'd be great. Uh, in the meantime, I am continuing to research into Steffen. I'm reaching out to former cadets at West Point. Um. If you knew him from West Point as Steffen Finkelstein, I'd be very happy to talk, to talk to you if you're listening to this. And, um, so there, there are a couple things that I'm trying to, to trace down still. Um, and, uh, you know, I, if I find anything, I'll, I'll absolutely let you know.

Excellent. And how can people get ahold of you? It's like if somebody has information, how can they get that information to you?

Yeah, all my contact and anything you wanna know about this is, um, at james renner.com.

Excellent. Well, so

that's the best place,

right? Well, again, thank you for spending this time for with us and going over this. I think that it gives, especially people that don't know who we're talking about, and it'll give him a good idea. And this sets a good base to start talking about all the things that he did.

Yeah. Well, good luck with it. I'm, I'm glad you're doing this and, and it's important and I'm sure it'll, um, kick up some new leads. So, so keep doing what you're doing.

Excellent. Thank you for being here and for everybody that's listening. Thank you for listening, and thank you for caring.