Well, hello, my name is Matt Edmundson

and you are listening to the E-commerce podcast.

I've been in e-commerce since 2002, and these days I partner

with e-com brands to help them grow, scale and exit.

And if you'd like to know more about that, just

head over to the website, e-commerce podcast.net.

And if this is your first time listening.

Come follow me on LinkedIn.

It'd be great to connect.

In fact, if it's not your first time listening and

we're still not connect on LinkedIn, come find me.

Uh, it's a great place.

Just get over to LinkedIn.

Search, search there.

Search Matt Edmundson.

Uh, and you'll find me there.

Now.

That's enough about me.

Let's talk about Paul.

Paul Chambers, uh, the legend who is on our show

today, all the way from the other side of the ocean.

Uh, Paul, it's great to have you, man.

I've been looking forward to this because.

Um, well, lemme just read out your bio here.

It says that, uh, you are the co-founder of SubSumit,

the world's largest conference exclusively.

Exclusively note the word, uh, dedicated to direct to consumer

subscription businesses.

We're gonna be diving into what might be the most

misunderstood balancing act in subscription commerce today.

Retaining subscribers whilst creating a

frictionless customer.

Experience.

Paul's smiling already.

Uh, I wonder if we've all been a bit guilty.

I love this.

Uh, have we all been a bit guilty, uh, of this at some

point where we secretly hope customers forget about their

subscription renewals to squeeze out an extra month of revenue?

Yet Paul has built an entire movement around the opposite

philosophy, creating so much value that customers

never want to leave.

Paul, welcome to the show, man.

Paul Chambers: Great to have you.

Thanks so much, Matt.

Thanks for having me.

And that that wild rollercoaster ride introduction.

Holy cow.

Holy cow.

I've set the bar high.

I've set it high.

Yeah, yeah.

No, no, no pressure.

You know, one, one, I'll give you a fun fact.

I don't think I've ever revealed before.

I always like to reveal something new on, on

different podcast I do.

I maintain the title of co-founder.

Because I have it, it just doesn't behoove me to have

any other title because the things I do change so much

sometimes on a daily basis.

My job around SubSumit is to, you know, my main focus

is to help build out content and find amazing speakers

and, and bring amazing minds.

But, um.

You know, I'm, I'm always just helping with operations,

helping, you know, Chris, Chris George is our CEO,

helping him kind of guide us in the right direction.

Um, keeping an eye on the finances, whatever it may be.

So, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh, when, when he shared that, uh, I finally, I'm like,

just don't gimme me a title.

I don't want COOI don't want president.

I don't want CEO, just, just, I'm just here to clean up and

keep things running around with the net catching things as they

fall, putting 'em back, tidy up.

Yeah.

It's, uh, I I love that.

I love that.

If you're a regular to this show, you'll, you'll

recognize the Chris George.

'cause Chris has been on, um, he's been on, I've spoke to

Chris on quite a few occasions on the podcast, but, um,

it's good to have, uh, the, the, maybe the better half

of the equation on the show.

Just the better face

I.

Yeah.

Always got something going for me.

Yeah.

You know, we compliment each other well, we really do.

Um, and you know, that's from a standpoint of just having

different minds, different ways of looking at things.

Um, yeah, I've had a number of co-founders

in my business journey.

Different businesses, different co-founders, and,

um, Chris is one of the better ones and if not the best,

and, um, it's just 'cause.

Our, our brains both click at a fast rate, but in just

different ways and looking at different details.

So works out.

Yeah.

Nah.

Cool man.

Cool.

Matt Edmundson: Legends a pair of you.

Uh, before we get into it, let's just do a

quick plug for SubSumit.

Why don't you tell us a little bit about what's

going on this year?

I.

Yeah, so sub Summit, um, as you kind of

aply described in the beginning is the event dedicated to

$3 trillion subscription, membership and loyalty industry.

So this is what we found in our decade of doing this now

is more and more subscription and membership are, and, and

loyalty especially are the core.

Hmm.

Of most businesses.

It's where that relationship starts and, and forms and really

engages customers and creates a long lasting relationship.

So Sub Summit is a place where brands come together?

Yeah.

To learn how they continue to scale their, their programs

continue, how to invest in them.

If they're not already doing something great, they

learn how to, to grow it.

We've got sessions, we've got an expo hall, we've got networking,

we've got one-to-one business, uh, to supplier meetings.

Uh, you name it, it's over the course of two and a half days.

Um, just a, a massive absorption of knowledge.

Yeah,

it is a, it's a huge event.

Um,

I. When you go and I, I've, I've been

there fortunate to have been there the last two years,

going again this year, which I'm looking forward to.

So, uh, if you are in SubSumit, uh, this year, come say, how's

it, I would love to meet you if we've not Al Met, already met

and, um, some great friendships actually have started there

over the last few years.

So I'm quite looking forward to catching up with folks, uh,

and seeing crazy things happen.

Cool program too, where brands can get there for,

uh, little to no investment.

We've, they can get a free ticket and seven 50 in travel

and hotel reimbursement through a hosted program,

um, which I'm sure we can talk about later, but it's

just a great frictionless way to get people to the event

and to, to learn and grow.

Yeah.

I was, when Chris mentioned this, the first time that

you guys were doing this, I thought that's actually.

I'm used to going shows in the UK where I think

budgets are different.

Chris, I'm, uh, Paul, I'm not gonna lie, I, I, I

think the budgets are very different on occasions.

And so when I heard that you guys were paying or offering

free tickets and subsidized travel to go to the show,

I'm like, you've obviously figured out a way to make

that work for you guys.

And I, I think that's really, really clever.

Yeah.

Um, really clever.

So yeah, if you're listening and you want to go to

sub submit, do check.

Where would they go to to find out more about that?

The, the grid starting point is always

the website, sub summit.com, and from there you can click

on the, the tickets button, get more details on that

program if you're interested.

Yeah, if you're interested in sponsoring,

there's link to that.

I can show you, you know, venue.

Everything's, everything's right there from the homepage

and lots of great details.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

Fantastic.

Okay, so let's get into it.

Uh, what made you, uh, I mean your, your, I have here a very

long list of your history, Paul.

Um, I went to perplexity.

Do you use perplexity by the way?

I haven't, no perplexity, I've ai.

It's, uh, it's, it's, so, it's AI meets Google search.

It's really clever.

Yeah.

And boy, what did it uncover?

They've got this, yeah, they've got this new feature

called Deep Dive, I think called Deep, deep something

or other Deep Research.

So I, I clicked that link and it's where it just spends.

Quite a bit of time doing some research and I said, tell me

a bit about Paul Chambers.

Yeah.

Did it label me as a jazz musician?

'cause there is a famous Paul Chambers jazz musician.

No, no, no.

Not

at

all.

The things

that I learned about you

that I didn't know, uh.

I mean, obviously I know your connection with the

subscription commerce industry, but where was it?

Um, you exit, you had a company, gentleman's

Box, you exited that.

You joined forces with Chris, you've got subter, which is a

subscription trade association.

You co-founded that.

Now we've got Sub Summit, um, uh, which you are involved with.

And then there was some other, what did it come up with?

I thought it was phenomenal.

I wanted to check to see if it was true.

That was my thing.

Um.

Let me tell you this while you're

checking your notes.

I built my first E-Commerce website, fifth grade.

But, well, I started, I started selling in the back

coat room in fifth grade.

Okay.

But I built my first actual e-commerce website,

I think it was 1997.

Wow.

It was for a company in Detroit here on Woodward Avenue

called Nathan Camera Shop.

It was this guy who had a little camera shop on Woodward

Avenue, and he wanted to, he had so much inventory.

He heard about this internet thing, and he wanted to start

selling his cameras and his spare parts online and the.

The hand coding of everything back in that day was

remarkable compared to what we, what we have today.

Yeah.

Our whole inventory systems.

Yeah.

Syn up with his point of sale system.

Um, so is it still going?

Is he still online?

No, he retired.

He eventually retired and, and shut down his shop.

You know, didn't really sell it off or do anything with it,

but, um, you know, this being the e-commerce, you know, an

e-commerce focused podcast, just thought that'd be a

fun little tidbit to share.

Yeah,

yeah.

Yeah.

Wells certainly than me.

I was 2002, so you definitely beat me.

By four years, you know,

and I, not saying you, you might've had a better,

2002 might've been a much better website compared to my 19,

no, no.

Yeah.

Um, it certainly has grown over the years, but that's,

you know, my history, my background, I've had a marketing

website agency that I've had for 25 plus years now.

Yeah.

Um, that's been the catalyst for, for kinda spinning

everything off and that's what I'm doing my full focus.

My main focus in time goes towards sub summit

nowadays, but, uh, certainly.

Tell me about, and this

is if it's true, right?

I'm curious to, to check this out.

The popcorn and franchise location in metro Detroit

and the Capri Pizza in Southfield, Michigan, I.

Yeah.

Um, in 2004, stumbled across a newspaper article about Isaiah

Thomas rolling out a chain of gourmet popcorn stores.

Isaiah Thomas is a former Detroit Piston and NBA All Star

and, you know, admirable in the i the eyes of many basketball

fans across the world, but a lot, especially in Detroit here.

And so I was like, well, that sounds interesting.

I better look into that some more.

Long story short ended up, um, becoming a franchise

in the popcorn chain, Dale and Thomas Popcorn.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, opened up, uh, up to, at one point I had

five stores were on Metro Detroit retail stores.

There was an online porn I. Part to it as well, but

as a franchise franchisee, franchisor relationship mm-hmm.

It's actually one of the important things that I worked

with them to help learn and grow about is how you do online

sales, but contribute that back to franchisees in the

system, um, grew that nicely.

Ultimately, 2008 came along, ended up really affecting

the business and, and.

Hurting it.

And when most disposable income went away for people.

Yeah.

Um, they stopped buying gourmet popcorn as well.

Um, but it was definitely an interesting adventure and,

and certainly learned a lot about retail that led the foray

years, decades later into, um, buying a distressed pizza

shop here in metro Detroit.

Uh, and that's where, you know, my branding marketing

agency comes along and mm-hmm.

We did almost like, um.

A bar, bar rescue type situation with it, where it was really

distressed, needed new life, breathed into it, did like a

really just paint and touch up makeover on it, put new branding

to it and really elevated it.

Um, unfortunately our operating partner as part of that business

ended up leaving and we ended up finding a new happy home to,

to run that pizza shop for us.

Right.

Um, but you know, retail is one of those

businesses that, um, I have a love hate relationship with.

Where.

I love, I love having a business on Main Street and connecting

with people and you know, you get such fast, instant insights.

Yeah.

Into the minds of people.

One of the craziest things I learned of in my gourmet popcorn

store was when I would be low on an item on the shelf, if there's

just one thing left on the shelf, it would sit for weeks

untouched as soon as I would load another item behind it.

So there were two of that sitting on the shelf.

Sales would pick back up again.

Crazy, and it's just like instant consumer psychology

that you can't see oftentimes in the digital space.

Yeah, you start running heat maps and you look at it and

you watch green recordings and those kind of things, but I.

It's just, you know, when you're sitting there talking

face to face with somebody, you know, the upsell, I, you

know, we'd, we'd have a, a bag, you could get a bag of

popcorn for this price, but a dollar more, you get a bag and

a half is what we'd call it.

And, and it was so fun to experiment with the way I'd

present it to people and the way I'd talk to people about it.

And so you, you look, you take those things and you can apply

'em to online space, but it was like, you know, for a dollar

more, only a dollar more, you can get 50% more popcorn.

Yeah.

You sure you don't wanna do that?

And so it's always, it's always fun and fascinating to, to play

with those kind of experiments.

And then I take them and apply 'em to the websites we were

building and stuff like that.

Matt Edmundson: That's fascinating,

man.

Fascinating.

I could talk about popcorn all day long,

but I, I probably should.

Uh, and, and the pizza shop is my daughter's

idea of, of heaven.

Mm-hmm.

I, I feel, um, but let's get into subscription, right?

Because obviously this is your bread and butter now, isn't it?

This is where your genius lies.

Um, and I, I follow you on LinkedIn.

We're in a WhatsApp group.

I see some of the videos you post, which are very funny, I

have to say, uh, a great, and I'm one of the things which

has come out through that.

Um, one of the things I've learned from you

guys is this traditional approach, approach of making

cancellation of subscriptions difficult, how that actually

harms your subscription business in the long run.

Do you wanna comment on that?

Oh gosh.

I can't tell you the number of conversations I've had

with brands where they've had that realization.

Mm-hmm.

And, and because, you know, the position, position we're

in, a lot of big brands come to us and, and want to, to

chat about what's going on, how they can continue to improve.

And um, the number of times I've heard from them where

it's like, as soon as we change the cancellation

process, as soon as we reduce the friction or allowed

them to cancel much easier.

We saw immediate uptick in our customer lifetime value

and long-term retention.

Um, and they say immediate because you

would see people would.

Cancel and be like, oh, you know, and they'd

want to come back later.

That's the biggest challenge that we face in the industry

of, yeah, kind of that bad reputation that people get

that companies get from subscription or membership.

They feel like, gosh, if I commit to this, I'm one

gonna have a challenge of canceling or two, I'm

gonna forget about it and.

You know, we take the position that one, never

hide the cancel button.

Robbie Kelman Baxter, who you know as well often.

Yeah, yeah.

She's great.

Robbie, she on the stage, she's stood on the show as well.

Yeah.

She stood on the stage two years ago and made everybody hold

their hand off and do a pledge to not hide the cancel button.

I remember.

It's that important.

Yeah.

And you know, we, we see that time and time again.

When you give people the ability to pause, skip, find ways to

make them more comfortable in their relationship with you

as a brand, it immediately will show that that.

The, the benefit to the business from that side.

So we, you know, we really focus on that.

And then, you know, the other challenge sometimes is a

lot of companies will build subscription for the sake of

building subscription and not give enough thought into like,

the real value to the customer.

At the end of the day, you see a lot of these

membership programs popping up from different retailers

or different online, um.

Sales places that are building a membership program just

to kind of maybe capture some additional revenue

or engage their customers.

Yeah.

But it really has to be done right.

And one of my favorite examples is Panera Bread.

Uh, they're famous here in the United States for fast

casual food and eateries.

And they, when we, we talked to them and they talked

about this at Sub Summit as well, so this isn't

anything special proprietary.

They realize that.

Just really start at a low friction, easy

point with the customer.

That's that free loyalty program.

Yeah, bring 'em in, show 'em the benefits, build that

relationship, and then over time introduce 'em to other options.

Hey, by the way, we have this SIP club, which gives

you unlimited coffee, gives you free delivery, it gives

you ongoing specials, and it's only 10 to $12 a month.

And you get, you're, you're getting into this membership

where it's creating tremendous value on top of the value you're

already feeling from that, that retailer or that website.

And so that's where, you know, we talk a lot about

building the right subscription program or membership program.

That's for your audience.

Yeah, no, I love that.

I, I,

because I, I think the default.

Um, Paul, which I, we've mentioned on the show

before, certainly in the uk.

I, I, I think, um, things are changing, but certainly

with a lot of e-comm sites, um, if e-comm is their

primary driver, right?

The subscription thing is something that they add on

because that's what Amazon did.

You know, with a subscriber, save, you know, buy this

and save 5% every month if you buy it on subscription.

That then became the default model.

Subscribe and save.

Including some of my own, uh, e-comm businesses.

That's what we did the whole subscribe and save thing.

And I think if there's one thing that I've learned

from you guys other than don't hide the cancellation

button, uh, it's probably don't do, subscribe and save.

Um, I think it has to be, uh, more than that.

And so I, I love this example that you're talking about,

about almost like a, a subscription funnel, isn't it?

And at every level, you're increasing the value and taking

people further and further in.

Yeah.

And there's um, oh man, I wish we could talk about

already, there's gonna be a really fun announcement at

Sub Summit from a, a big brand about some, some cool stuff

happening in this space here, what you just talked about.

Um, but.

You'll, you'll hear about it in just a few months.

One of the things that, um, I can talk about that I've

really enjoyed is, um, there's a brand that met at SubSumit

last year called Bottomless.

Mm-hmm.

Have you heard of these guys or seen them yet?

It's not what you think it would be.

Um, bottomless created this scale for coffee companies

that they'd put underneath their coffee grounds, and

it would, uh, when it would.

You know, you'd put it in a little container and it would

get down to a certain level.

It would recognize it, and then it would auto-ship you your

next bit of coffee that you needed to refill that container.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely brilliant.

Mm-hmm.

I've been talking about this for the longest time of the way,

you know, I've got a dog and you know, I've got dog food,

but I also have like poop bags.

How many were we using a day?

The, the, the goal of the company should be to understand

the customer's mindset and give them the replenishment

exactly when they need it, right at the right time,

without worry or concern.

So I actually got into Biola's dog food trial and I put,

I have a scale that sits under our dog food container.

And I will tell you it works flawlessly.

Wow.

As soon as it's starting to get down the next I I get a shit.

I see a shipment notification in my email, and just a couple days

later, I have the next bag of dog food that's on my doorstep.

The, the, the point of friction I would always have with

Chewy, who, by the way, 70% of their revenue is autoship,

chewy dog food, massive multimillion dollar brand.

70% is subscribe and save as autoship.

The friction point I would always have with them, uh, I

love 'em to death 'cause their customer service is amazing.

Their products are amazing, like things are doing are great.

It always like, it always show up like a week, two earlier

or a week too late or Yeah.

You know, I'd be worried like, oh shoot, the

dog food's getting low.

Is it gonna show up on time?

And so, you know, it's about understanding the,

what the cus customer needs Right at the right time.

Bottomless, one of the challenges with it is you

gotta have like this scale and we gotta set it out.

It needs to be near an outlet and so I think

there's some things to be worked through on that.

Yeah.

But that idea and that mentality of how you can meet the

customer at that right point.

I'll never like.

Why would ever cancel that?

Why would, unless my dog stops eating that food.

It's just going to keep coming.

It, it, it is fascinating.

While you're talking, I'm thinking about, um.

Something that Amazon did a few years ago, but it never really

seems to, I dunno if it's taken off or whether I just don't see

it anymore, was you could, you could buy little buttons that

when you were running mm-hmm.

Running low, you would just push them and it would

just sort of just turn up.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I remember that too.

Um, I forget what it was called, but I missed that and

I never tried it 'cause it was before I really got into.

This space.

It was, it was a while ago.

They stopped those and I don't know why.

I think they probably realized maybe subscribing

Save was better.

There's had to maintain the buttons.

Who knows?

I. Do you know why they stopped that?

I have

no idea.

I've, I'd like you, I've forgotten about it.

I, I, I, I, I will find out because I, I'm intrigued as to

why that I wonder sometimes I think technology is too early.

Um, true.

And I, I just wonder whether that was, was too early.

Um, I'm, I'm less one, one of the things that I'm

thinking about as you're talking, I'm like, I, I love

this idea of the scales.

'cause the scales actually, they're just.

They're quite easy to produce.

Once you've got the technology, they're not gonna be a, a,

a high barrier to entry.

It's kind of like the Nespresso thing, isn't it?

Where you buy the machine for next to no money really,

and the money's in the pods.

Right.

Well

that's,

and that's exactly like what I'm saying.

You know, one of my.

Things I'm saying the bottom list is just providing

they're, they're the conduit for all these things.

But if you find somebody that can create an attractive dog

food container, 'cause the one I have in my kitchen's, not

good looking, but an attractive dog food container like

that in itself is a product.

And now people, you give them that for free or whatever you

wanna charge for a small amount of money, and now they're

getting your dog food nonstop and very rarely gonna cancel.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, no.

Fascinating.

Listen, if you are listening to this, uh,

conversation that Paul and I are having and you're enjoying

it, well, why not come join my little free membership?

Did you like how I did that there, Paul?

Uh, it's called Cohorts.

Uh, we have a cohort in New Zealand, Australia.

We have just started a brand new one in the uk.

We've got another one now going in the uk.

This is where we just jump on Zoom once a month and

have catch up calls and we just chat about e-commerce

and all that sort of stuff.

So if you wanna know more, just check out the website

eCommerce podcast.net.

Paul, I'm curious, right, if you were, um.

If you were in Eco, because I know that there are a

lot of pure subscription businesses, right?

I think of our friend John Roman and Battle Box and the

cool stuff he's doing there, and you kind of go, this is

really fabulous, you know?

Um, but I, a lot of people listening to the show will

have e-commerce businesses.

How do you see those two things colliding and mixing?

Yeah.

Well, a couple things.

Um, you know, I mentioned earlier and talked about

membership programs and loyalty programs.

Mm-hmm.

And that's where, you know, it's an.

A lot of what we talk about at Sub Summit as well, it's

not just subscription and pure play where you think, subscribe

and save or you think mm-hmm.

Subscription boxes or things like that.

Um, membership programs are a really big part of that, and

that's where, you know, we see a lot of retailers doing and

trying different things and some are successful and some

are, are not so successful.

Uh, three brands that come to mind.

One vie Avi's played with their membership program

for a lot of different ways.

A lot of different times.

They're a collagen.

Product here in the States and, um, they've been successful

with it in introducing different things along the way.

They do, if you're a member, you have free shipping, you're

gonna get access to products early and special discounts.

And they followed a similar model to True Classic, which

is a, a great clothing brand.

Yeah.

Done very similar things.

I've seen True Classic play with their membership

programs over time.

Um, and find different ways to do it and offer

different benefits.

Um, I. Some will do, uh, you know, just $25 annually and

some will do a $400 annually.

I think I, I haven't gotten any feedback on which

price point works the best.

I think it all depends on your market and what you're offering,

um, because I don't think there is a true, like, perfect

price point for any of this.

It all depends on your brand.

Um, the other brand that that comes to mind, which is,

uh, a really good reference point is Uncommon Goods.

I joined the membership program because I want free shipping.

So it's no different than Amazon Prime.

Mm-hmm.

You're gonna join Amazon Prime for, you know, the,

the benefit or Walmart plus.

Yeah.

For the benefit of the free shipping, of the

fast shipping, of the different things like that.

So e-commerce retailers, if you find your customers are

coming back to you time and time again, introducing a membership

program like that would be a phenomenal way to continue

to engage your customers.

And, you know, if they're.

If they know they already have that membership, like every,

every holiday season comes around and it's like, oh, I

should go look at Uncommon Goods because I know I get

free shipping with them.

That should be one of my first places to shop if I'm looking

for unique gifts outside of Amazon or other places.

Yeah, I first heard about this concept from

Jay Meyers, who I, we both know, in fact, you were on Jay's

podcast recently, weren't you?

Uh, which I'll come to him in a a second.

Do, came on my

podcast recently, actually.

Oh, he came on your podcast

or, or quick 10 minute interview.

Whatcha are you

doing?

I just, just, I saw your post and stuff on LinkedIn about it.

Um, yeah.

And Jay's a legend from Bold Commerce and, um, I heard

him, he did a talk at some, something about memberships.

Um, and the using this, you know, the psychology of the

sunk cost fallacy, so I've paid whatever it is, 80 bucks for

my Amazon Prime membership.

So even though it might not be cheaper on Amazon Prime, I've,

I've paid this membership, so I'm going to use it, you

know, and that, um, and how.

In some respects, memberships can be more

valuable than subscription, uh, was what he said.

Depending on, I guess how you separate the definitions.

Um, but this idea of introducing a membership for your e-comm

site, I think it's totally true.

I think it's totally right.

I think in the UK it's funny listening to you talk about free

shipping because I think free shipping's important, but in the

UK, shipping is a lot less, uh, the fees are a lot less 'cause

it's a much smaller country.

Uh, and things get around much quicker.

Everything's overnight.

Right.

And, um, and so, uh, but I think if you are it, we played

around with a membership where you got free shipping with

the beauty company we had here in the uk, it was Okay.

Um, I think we needed to do more than just that to

add value from the, from the shipping point of view.

Yeah.

I mean, look, it, that's, that's the, the

thing that, to, to think about free shipping is one

element of a program like that that can be successful.

I always say, and I I should stop saying it because they've

been raising the prices lately.

Like Amazon doesn't charge me enough.

I get so much value from it.

And same thing from, from Walmart plus, like Jeff Bezos

watches me talk somewhere.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's that price.

Paul's not paying enough.

Yeah.

I'd be behind AI's listening

in, you know, that's what it is.

Yeah.

I'd be, I'd be willing to pay more just if

it's because of Joe.

Listen, because he needs more money.

Yeah, I know.

But you know, to that point, you know, so they keep layering

in more and more offerings.

And one of the things they just did recently too,

they introduced Alexa Plus.

Mm-hmm.

Which is this new AI agent built into Alexa that you

can buy standalone for 1999 a month, but if you have

Amazon Prime, it's included.

You're like, well that's a no brainer.

Why don't I just, you know.

Get Amazon Prime if I don't, if I'm one of the few

people on this planet that doesn't have it already.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh, Walmart Plus does great with this, say layer in, you get a

Paramount plus subscription, you get discounts on gas at the

pump, at Walmart stores and.

You know, if you're an eCommerce store and sitting

here listening like, well I'm not Amazon or Walmart, I'm

not gonna, I can't go out and make a deal with Paramount

Plus and I can't do this.

Then find ways you can add value.

Yeah.

Is it, is it a complimentary eCommerce website where you

could partner up and put your memberships together

under a bundled membership where as a member here

you're gonna get access Here.

Here.

Mm-hmm.

Sure.

You can talk about share wallet and things like that,

but you know, looking the ideas to look at unique and

creative ways, understanding your audience and adding value.

The more you can add value, the more likely they are to

come back and stay loyal to you as a brand, thus increasing

your, your overall value.

And if you're looking to sell it someday or do

more with it then mm-hmm.

It's only gonna work out for you.

Matt Edmundson: No, that's so true.

And value, uh, just again to reiterate, uh, from what you're

saying Paul, and because this is something you guys have,

have hammered quite rightly.

Value is not discount value is a whole bunch

of, uh, other things.

Having a really fascinating conversation with my, I. With

my family on the family WhatsApp group the other day because

within like three days I get an email from Netflix and I get an

email from Disney Plus, both of which I'm subscribed to, both of

which are subscription services.

Netflix has put up their prices massively as have Disney plus I.

And so I'm like, well, neither of you're really giving

me any increased value.

You're just charging me more money.

Um, there's a few shows I like, but there's always

a few shows that I like.

It's not like I've, I, a diehard show like Amazon have done

well, I think with the Reacher series, but that's just me.

It's a personal thing.

Um, but I think, so the conversation in

the WhatsApp group now.

This is not an affordability thing.

I just want to put, I mean, you know, if you want to pay

for my Netflix subscription, if anyone's listening and feel the

freedom, I'm not gonna stop you.

It's not an affordability thing, but it is a, I'm

really annoyed thing.

And um, so now in the WhatsApp, we've got this family poll

thing going on, going, well, which one do we cancel guys?

Yeah.

And you know, we're seeing that more and more in the

marketplace as the streamers continue to rise prices.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I think they're gonna find there's an upper

limit that they can go to.

And it, I almost wonder like, are they testing it?

Do they have data that suggests it?

I mean, it could be d all the above.

Um, but you know, we had Truebill on our stage, uh, a

number of years ago at SubSumit, and Truebill is the app that.

And now it's called Rocket Money.

Mm-hmm.

Um, the app that's out there screaming from the rooftop,

download this app so you can cancel your unto unwanted

subscriptions and they get into your credit cards and they see

like, you're using this, using this, and then we'll cancel

it for you and all that stuff.

But one of the things that, um, haru, the founder of Truebill

set on stage and shared on stage was we're finally, uh,

and this is like two years ago.

Hit the threshold where the number of subscriptions people

are adding kind of cross with the cancellations basically kind

of found what that upper limit is on number of subscriptions.

People will keep now over time as things like this happen.

You know, I'm like you, I have Netflix, Disney

Plus, Hulu, Amazon, all the streamers just 'cause

whatever makes my kids happy.

Mm-hmm.

But I'm at that same point now saying, if we're not

watching Netflix as much.

Why are we continuing to pay for it every month?

And I think some of this is being combated or helped,

I should say, by bundling.

We're seeing more and more bundling where like,

yeah, you can get Netflix, Uber, like Hulu, Disney

Plus and ESPN mm-hmm.

Are together and different things like that.

Um, yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna.

Price themselves out, but then it just becomes a numbers game.

Are you capturing more revenue from those

subscribers that stay?

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Interesting to see.

Well, they

definitely don't care about it all me,

but I do think it's interesting the mindset that I'm in now.

Yeah.

Where I'm, I'm like that.

I, I feel like I've got enough subscriptions, man.

I, I, I'm, I'm really guarded about which ones I take on.

Yeah.

And I'm quite happy to get rid of a few of them.

Now.

My, I don't know if you're.

Worried about my hesitancy used to be for canceling,

let's say something like Netflix was like, oh man.

Then all my episodes I was midstream on or recommendations

when I go to sign back up again, those will be gone and lost.

Um, I'm going to cancel Netflix soon, I think to look at the

flow and see what happens there.

Yeah,

because it's a hesitancy in my

mind like, ah gosh, I gotta rebuild the profiles.

Maybe that's a good thing.

Maybe it's good to start fresh.

'cause you know.

You know what's super interesting?

There's a tweet out there from me somewhere that vowed I

would never go back to Netflix.

I was like this, I'm done.

I'm tearing it up.

Um, and it was when they first raised their prices

and rolled their DVD out separate from their streaming.

Okay.

That's how long ago this was.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was like, this, this company's done.

They're toast.

Um, I ate my words on that and I, I went back to it.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but it was because again, they just.

You know, there's content, you know, there's

value and things like

that.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, well, at some point I might be the same.

I might, I, to be fair, I think we're gonna cancel Disney Plus.

'cause I think the, the output of Disney Plus has been useless

the last year when you've watched the Marvel movies and

there's nothing else really to, well, there was that Shogun

TV show, but I, I think the, um, I think that at some point

the value may well increase past the price, but at the

moment it isn't, and this is just to your point, isn't it?

With our e-com sites, with our subscriptions, with our

memberships, the value has gotta far outweigh the price.

And I think I heard at SubSumit, uh, again, it may

be Jay that says actually the value has to be at least three

times the price or the three times the perceived price.

Or no, the perceived value has to be three times the cost of

whatever it is they're buying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's done a lot of, Jay, by the way, I've had to kick

Jay off the stage so many times because he's like,

he'll go in a good way.

In a good way.

Um.

He'll go up and he'll give a talk and then he'll get

so many questions, question, question real quick because

he's driven so much value and knowledge to a room where

people just have to, like, they have so many more questions,

what he's talking about.

Um, but the, the fascinating thing is, you know, he's

right in, in in that number.

There's a talk he gave in Orlando in 2022.

I'm trying to remember exactly what it was, but it was like,

it was the subscription death curve and, and talked about,

you know, just kind of that point of where if you're not.

Providing new, you know, value and giving people things to

talk about and talk to others, um, then you'll eventually,

you're gonna plateau.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So true, so true.

I mean, don't download Jay's brain.

Yeah.

Just, just download that into ai.

That would be a whole LLM in itself.

There we go.

Um, well let's give it a try Jay, if you're up for it.

Let's do it man.

I'm sure, uh, I'm sure Musk's got a tr some kind

of chip we can borrow that would allow us to

think about Jay.

He's Canadian.

He is so nice.

He would of course say yes.

They're so nice Canadian, like, yeah, sure.

No, that sounds great.

Oh

God, love the Canadians.

Um, the part, the part of the empire, you know.

Anyway, let's not go there.

The, um,

which one?

Are we gonna have them sooner or you keep it up?

Yeah, I, well, I dunno.

Let's talk to Donald to see what he says.

All of the Donald

Oh, brilliant.

Absolutely brilliant.

What, I know you've given some examples of sites that you're

really liking at the moment, but thinking about the, where

it's all going, and I I'm, you're gonna talk a lot about

this at Sub Summit, I know, but where it's all going 20,

25, 26, what are some of the things that you are seeing that

you find the most promising, uh, for the sort of foreseeable

future of subscription commerce?

Yeah.

Um, you know, when we, we look at, you know, what's promising

is a lot of, uh, a lot of brands we're talking to are,

are looking at bundling options.

You know, how are, are they coming together to, um, help

give more to the customers?

Yeah.

So we're seeing a lot of promise there.

Um, you know, we talked about earlier about easing the

cancellation flow, um, and seeing a lot of promise there.

Um.

You know, it's, and the other part, you know, the

ecosystems continuing to grow and expand Shopify.

Um, for better or for worse, sometimes I get a little

frustrated with Shopify's kind of hold on their ecosystem.

Um, but.

They're building a great product.

They're leaning into subscription.

And so from that, one of the really promising things

we're seeing is more and more, uh, apps are being

developed, more partners, which creates more opportunity.

When I launched, when we launched Gentleman's Box, we

built it on WooCommerce and we had to, and there was a

subscription add-on at the time, and we had to hack the crap

out of that to get it to work the way we want it to work.

And, um.

At the time, Recho was just spinning up and

recharge was just an idea.

And O Sheen's and his partner's heads and.

Since then, obviously more and more you've got stay,

you've got lube, you've got, uh, Yapo got into it for a

hot minute, but they realize that they wanna stay, focus

on their core, uh, charge bee and recharge and bold.

And so there's so many great options out there for

focusing on recurring billing.

And then the things they add in, layer in there.

So, you know, this investment from Shopify of lightly

dipping their toes into.

Native subscription and what they're seeing there

is creating more and more opportunity on top of that.

So it's, it's easier than ever to build this out, but again,

i, I just continue to encourage these businesses, just make

sure you're doing it right, taking some time and focusing

on how you build out the program and everything behind it.

Um, we talked earlier about, uh, subscribe and save,

and one of the things I want to kind of loop back

around to is if you can.

Find a way to ask customers questions that will make it

less frictionless for 'em, then that'll be, um, a better

off experience as a whole.

So the example I provide from time to time, and I started

to get into here was dog poop bags, for lack of a better term,

if you know you're gonna be using these bags twice a day,

you take your dog on two walks and you're using twice a day.

Um, you know, if, if the brand that's selling those were to

ask me that question, like.

How often do you use these refuse bags for your dog?

Okay, we notice you're using 'em three times a

day and we sell this many.

Our default shipment's gonna be this often for you.

So really just kind of easing the customer's

minds from the get go.

You know, seeing things like that of better ways to connect

with customers, whether it be the, like I talked about

earlier, the Panera $0 loyalty is a starting point or asking

questions to get to answers.

Those are where we're seeing success.

That's,

Paul Chambers: that's really cool.

Uh, and it, again, it comes

old school principles.

Just talk to your customers.

Right.

Figure out what it is they want and figure out a really

easy way for them to get it.

I mean, it's, it's not rocket science, but sometimes I

think we're overcomplicate it.

Yeah.

And you know, look, in fairness, I'm a business owner operator.

If you're in the weeds, sometimes it's, it's hard to

see, you know, out beyond them.

You're, you're in the day to day, you're doing things.

Mm-hmm.

And you think you built what people want.

And, and sometimes we just have to encourage ourselves,

and that's why people listen to content like this.

'cause they wanna.

Maybe get the opportunity to think outside the box or

think, you know, work on the business, not in the business.

And so, you know, just taking a step back and, and not being

too hypercritical of yourself.

Like, man, I failed.

I didn't think about this.

It's just this is an opportunity to open your mind up to

look at it in other ways.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

Fantastic.

Um, if you've, uh, been enjoying this and you've made it this

far and you haven't already done, so, why not sign up to the

newsletter called E-commerce?

So that's the newsletter we send out.

Every single week, we're going to feature all the

links to Paul, all the tidbits that you've shared in here,

and probably add one or two extra bits in there as well.

So do come, uh, and check it out.

Paul.

Listen, man, uh, it's always wonderful to talk to you.

Uh, it always feels like it was just yesterday

and, but it wasn't.

It was probably a SubSumit.

To be fair, when you handed me some very delicious

e-commerce podcast socks, yay.

I Hopefully you didn't eat them.

Yeah, no, no.

I just, I just thought they, they just looked amazing.

You handed me these branded

e-commerce podcast socks, which I thought was great.

It was fun.

One of that's, so that's where I, I dip my toes in

the water from time to time.

One of the brands we support is Custom Sock Shop.

Um, my, mark, my agency supports, and I've worked

with them for a decade, and so they're great partners of

ours, um, and, and friends of ours and, and I. I kind of

lend my knowledge to them on the, the side here and there.

Hmm.

Because it's, uh, it's, it's fun to just kind of stay in tune

with things and, and keep in it.

And so, uh, custom Socks shop, I give them all the credit.

They, they made those awesome socks for you and the

Oh no, they did designed.

Brilliant.

And um, we, uh, I've, I've given the link to that shop,

uh, that does the socks to many, many people go there and buy

some really funky socks because this is such a cool thing.

Yeah, yeah.

It's a good group.

They're based outta Detroit here.

Uh, they manufacturing here.

They have some overseas manufacturing as well, but

just a good, good family operation and they do

good work and they care.

Fantastic.

Paul, listen, how do people reach you?

How do they contact you if they want to do that?

LinkedIn is a great place to find me.

Uh, so I just search for Paul Chambers and look for my

beautiful headshot that you might see on the podcast here.

And then, um, I'm, I'm active on x, formerly known as

Twitter, uh, x.com/paulchambers.

And then, uh, you can always email me paul@subsummit.com.

And always happy to help.

Mm-hmm.

It's a better one.

If you email info@subsummit or letstalk@subsummit.com,

there are multiple people that check that, so you get

a much faster answer than.

I say that to people all the time.

Yeah, you can have my email if you like, but

you really don't want it.

Uh, you really want this person in the team's

email 'cause they're gonna be much more helpful.

Actually, if you email the team,

it gets to me faster.

Often times it really does.

Like I'll try to reach Paul and then Lauren comes over to

my desk and starts pounding.

Oh, brilliant.

Absolutely brilliant.

Uh, Paul, listen, thank you so much man.

And just again, just to plug subs, Sumit, I will be there.

If you want to find out more about it, go to SubSumit.com.

We will of course link to that, uh, website.

We will link to, uh, Paul's LinkedIn to his.

No, not Twitter, X. Uh, we'll put all of those, uh,

in the show notes as well.

Uh, which you can just scroll down in your podcast app

or you can head over to the website ecommercepodcast.net.

So, Paul, listen, I like to save the best tool less.

I should have told you this before we hit record, right?

It's okay.

Um, but I, I completely forgot.

So for those people that have made it this far that haven't

quit, uh, listening to the show, we just like to, we've started

throwing this thing, it's called Save the Best or Last In There.

So my question, after decades in the subscription business and

selling successful companies, um, and helping countless

entrepreneurs through sub to and sub summit, what's

the one counterintuitive piece of advice?

That you would offer e-commerce entrepreneurs that has

consistently proven true for you, yet most business owners

struggle to accept or implement.

I appreciate that's the world's longest question.

Uh,

ooh.

So, oh man.

Um, there's a variety of things that come to mind on that.

Um, the, the thing that I've found is best is to oftentimes.

Second, guess what I think is right?

You know, the piece of advice I got from an entrepreneur

one time and I'll, I'll make it a little more pg, is is

sometimes you have to look in the mirror and, and.

Don't believe your own bs.

Um, yes, so true.

Yeah.

I, I was sitting across from him at a table and saying

like, I think this can work and I wanna make it work.

And he was a truly successful entrepreneur.

I really admired, also sold me a bad business at the time.

And, um, you know, his choice advice when I asked him for

my hundreds of thousands of dollars back, uh, was sometimes

you gotta look in the mirror, not believe you're on bs.

Um, and it was true the number of times I've had

to stop and, and be like.

Am I trying to talk myself into this and where this applies

to the e-commerce businesses.

If you're an operator, if you're a marketer, if you're,

no matter what your role is, uh, if something's not

working, you're sitting there like just beating your head

against the wall trying to say like, I know this should work.

Maybe it isn't.

Or, you know, mm-hmm.

Maybe you need to take a step back and, and take a reevaluate

and take a look at it.

Find better ways, more efficient.

We're constantly finding ways to be more efficient in what we do.

We've run events for 10 years.

We're still like finding every single day, finding ways,

like, why didn't we do this?

Why didn't we do this?

So, you know, I think that's, that's really some of the

best advice I ever received.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I love that.

Absolutely love that.

'cause, uh, you're right, the banging your head against a

brick wall, was it Einstein that said, uh, the definition

of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again,

but expecting different results or something like

that, that yeah, giving the same result, like, okay, well

you the same, you know, and expecting

something different to happen.

Yeah.

It's um, you drive, you insane.

Yeah, it will.

Absolutely.

I butchered the quote, but you know, you get what I mean.

It's that whole insanity thing.

Just stop doing the same thing.

Yeah.

It just, the results won't change if you do the same thing.

And there was that other phrase, is it Marshall?

What's the face?

What got you here won't get you there.

That's great.

Have you read that book?

It's a great book.

What got you here won't get you there.

It's a really interesting title, Marshall, I can't

remember his name now.

It'll come back to me as soon as I hit the stop record button.

I'll

find out.

I'll, I'll type those first words in the word Marshall.

Amazon.

It'll find it for me.

Yeah, where?

Just tell ai.

There should be a button.

Just push the button and the buck will turn up tomorrow.

Amazon.

Jeff's listening.

Jeff, send him a complimentary compli.

Yeah, that's my ad that's coming next

you.

They aren't

listening.

Don't lie to me.

You're listening.

You'll be amazed what might happen.

Uh, but listen, Paul, awesome.

Uh, thank you so much my friend.

It's been an absolute treat, an honor.

Thank you, Matt.

Appreciate it.

Wow.

That's it from me.

That's it from Paul.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.

I'll see you next time.

Bye for now.