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Bill: So you must be about
82 years old then to fit

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Eammon: all of that in.

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I am, I am 97.

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Oh,

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Bill: 97.

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Okay.

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Eammon: Uh, yeah, 97.

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All right.

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Yeah, currently,

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Bill: That's Eamon Powers.

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He's not 97.

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He's an airline pilot, an A&P, and he
has a PhD, and he runs training for

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a company that has at last count had
302 saves with their parachute system.

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How Cirrus actually did that, in
episode 95 of the Student Pilot Cast

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Welcome back to the Student Pilot Cast.

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I'm Bill.

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Back in the previous episode, I told
you I'd sat down with a couple of

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people at AirVenture who have pointed
their entire professional lives

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at making pilots better trained.

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This is the first of those conversations.

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So I'm at the Cirrus booth, and really,
as you're gonna see in here, it's

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really a compound, with Eamon Powers.

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Eamon is the director of Cirrus
Approach, which is also, in his words,

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the director of training development.

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It's an internal title, external
title, same job type of thing.

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he owns all the training content
for Cirrus products, all that they

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produce for pilots and maintainers.

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He's been there for about 18 months.

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Before that, he was at FlightSafety,
where he started as an instructor

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and then ended up building the
curriculum for the Legacy 500.

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And then he took the course that he
wrote and finished as their director

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of courseware design, doing R&D and
immersive training for maintenance.

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Before that, he owned a flight school.

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He flew volcano tours in Hawaii.

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He's an A&P.

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He's got an ATP certificate, and he
has a PhD in instructional design.

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I wanted to tell you why I wanted
this conversation specifically, and

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it has a lot to do with his background
and, and the things that he's

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studying and working on all the time.

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But Cirrus is a little unusual.

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Most manufacturers build you an
airplane, and they hand you the keys.

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Cirrus builds you an airplane
and then has opinions about how

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you're gonna be trained in it.

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Uh, they have a standardized
instructor corps and a purpose-built

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learning system and free courses
that they give to people who might

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never even buy anything from them.

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And there's a story underneath that.

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12 or 14 years ago, the fatal accident
rate in the Cirrus fleet was, and

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this is being generous, unremarkable.

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And there was a real argument in
the industry about whether the

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parachute was helping at all.

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That number has moved
dramatically since, though.

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And I wanted to know what actually
moved it, how they know what

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moved it, and how much of it is
transferable to the rest of us,

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Because most of you listening,
and me included, are not flying

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a Cirrus on day-to-day basis.

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I mean, I teach in Warriors,
Cherokees, and Cessnas.

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So that's the conversation here, how
you build training that works, how you

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measure whether it worked, and what a
company with real data behind them has

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figured out that the rest of general
aviation can steal or use from them.

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Two housekeeping notes here.

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First, about two-thirds of the
way into the interview, we got

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kicked out of the room we were in.

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Somebody needed the bigger room,
so the room tone and the backdrop

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changes a little bit mid-episode.

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That's not you, it was us.

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Second, there's a lot of Cirrus-specific
vocabulary in here, like CAPS, COPA,

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CSIP, Cirrus IQ, stuff like that.

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I tried to catch him and stop him
during the interview and have him define

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those things so that, uh, everyone
would know what he's talking about.

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So hopefully I didn't miss anything.

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So here's Eamonn Powers

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Welcome back, SPC listeners.

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Uh, I'm sitting here at the Cirrus booth.

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Uh, I should call it a compound.

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Eammon: Yeah, yeah.

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Bill: Uh, the Cirrus compound at OSH,
uh, And I'm here with Eamon Powers.

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who- why don't you tell us a little
bit about yourself and your role at

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and how long you've been working here?

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Eammon: Sure, yeah.

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So, uh, my name is Eamon Powers.

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uh, I've been with Cirrus
for about 18 months.

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I'm the, uh, director of Cirrus
Approach, which is also the

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director of training development.

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Bit of an internal external title, if
you will, but Cirrus Approach is where

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we do all of our training content for
both the pilot and, uh, maintainers.

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Uh, so we build a bunch of internal and
external training and we've been really

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focused on making sure that the, you
know, uh, that training experience is as

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seamless as possible and really smooth.

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my background, I've got a varied
background, like many aviation people do.

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I've, I've tried to be an
airline pilot a couple times.

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I, uh, I own my, I owned my
own flight school for a while.

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I did volcano air tours in Hawaii.

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You know, you know, we've,
we've done all that.

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And then, uh, academically, I have a PhD
in instructional design and, uh, just,

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um, really passionate about, you know,
helping as many people learn to fly.

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Uh, that's like, kind of
like the cornerstone of what

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I do- why I do what I do.

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Bill: Excellent.

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So you must be about 82
years old then to fit

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Eammon: all of that in.

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I am, I am 97.

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Oh,

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Bill: 97.

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Okay.

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Eammon: Uh, yeah, 97.

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All right.

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Yeah, currently,

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Bill: yeah.

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You've done a lot.

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Eammon: Yeah, I'm trying.

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I, I have, uh, attention surplus disorder.

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Yeah.

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Right?

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Bill: Yeah.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So, and I noticed you came from, uh,
FlightSafety- Yep … at one point.

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So you were running some

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Eammon: Yeah.

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When I was at FlightSafety, I started
off as an instructor on the 170, just,

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uh… And that, I was on that program for
about six months before they were like,

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"Hey, we need to build, you know, some new
curriculum for the, um, uh, Legacy 500,"

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which was just coming online, the Embraer.

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Uh, and that's really where, I mean,
that was, uh, what a tremendous

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opportunity there that FlightSafety
gave me 'cause, yeah, I got to like,

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you know, before the airplane, you
know, it's like, I think I was like 30th

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type rating in that airplane, you know?

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Oh, man.

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And, uh, uh, and then like, it's
funny 'cause like, you know, I'm

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30th type rating, but like I'm
taking the course that I built.

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So you're like, "This is
kinda weird, right?" Yeah.

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Uh, but, uh, really cool opportunity.

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I got to work with great
manufacturers there too.

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So I started with Embraer executive
jets and then, uh, wound up, uh, uh,

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moving over to the Pilatus, uh, line
and, um, uh, both Pilatus pilot and

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maintenance, and then, uh, Falcon
maintenance, uh, when I moved to Dallas.

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And then I became the director of
courseware design at FlightSafety,

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uh, which is, you know, we were doing
kind of research and development

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on how to use immersive media, uh,
specifically in the maintenance context.

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So, um, I'm one of those, you know,
strange pilot and mechanic people.

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Uh-huh.

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Uh, so I, that was a really tremendous
opportunity to work on the, uh, PT6

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and bring- You know, immersive training
into the regulatory environment.

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Like, that had never been done.

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So we did that, and I thought
that was pretty cool, so.

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Bill: Yeah, when I, when I saw you
were an ATP, an A&P, and you had a PhD-

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Eammon: Yeah

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… 
Bill: I was like, "What?"

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Eammon: The business card looks
a little silly, I will admit.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah.

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It's a little silly.

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Yeah.

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Bill: Excellent.

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All right.

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So let's talk about what y- what you

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Eammon: Sure.

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Bill: Um, Cirrus is a little unique,
at least in my experience for

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manufacturers because of your focus

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Eammon: Yeah

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… 
Bill: um, and having your, I- I think
it's the approach is that right?

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Eammon: Yep, yeah.

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Bill: And, training pilots even
who buy your airplane right?

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Eammon: Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Bill: Yeah, so tell me a little
bit about, that unique approach

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from Cirrus, why it exists-

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Eammon: Yeah

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Bill: uh, and how you think
it's, um, unique in the

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industry, and why you think it's

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Eammon: Yeah, so, you know, one of
the things that Cirrus… Uh, so like

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we have these, uh, core principles
at Cirrus that, uh, everyone is like

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completely like focused on, right?

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And you can see the division of the
company is, is based off of that and,

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um, yeah, really how we're doing.

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So we, we want that incredibly tailored,
incredibly dialed-in customer experience.

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That is our focus.

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So if you come to a Cirrus location,
uh, whether it's, you know, wholly owned

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like one of our locations in Knoxville
or McKinney or Scottsdale or Orlando,

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you know, that- that's the, uh you're
not gonna pre-flight the airplane

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outside kind of experience, right?

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Yeah, yeah.

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It's, uh, you know, we've
really dialed it up a lot.

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Yeah.

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And I think you're gonna find that even
at many of our CTCs, which are like

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kind of independent But, um, yeah, like,
the… Coming into it, what, what is

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abundantly clear is like we, we made a
decision, probably about 10 years ago

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with Cirrus Approach to launch Cirrus
Approach, and Cirrus Approach was…

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it's a, a home-built learning management
system that, that has all of our content.

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Uh, it's built specifically
for flight training in mind.

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Mm-hmm.

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So with that, you know, we've really
tailored that experience to be like lesson

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one and lesson two, they should flow
in this way, and they should meet this.

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And what's wild about that
is, you know, we, we track our

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safety metrics quite a bit.

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You know, everything from overruns
and, you know, hangar rash.

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We, we track that.

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And y- we can see, you know, and this is
where some of the, you know, I think a lot

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of learning and development people would
love to have, like, this kind of data.

200
00:09:06,178 --> 00:09:09,168
Uh, but we can see, like, hey, we
implemented Cirrus approach here, and

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00:09:09,168 --> 00:09:10,908
we saw the accident trend go down.

202
00:09:10,978 --> 00:09:12,938
Mm. And you're like, "Nice." Yeah.

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00:09:12,938 --> 00:09:14,168
"I'm glad that worked," right?

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Yeah.

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00:09:14,408 --> 00:09:18,048
so we're really focused on, uh, you know,
tremendous… the number one course we

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sell and, and do and, and offer is, uh,
our transition training courses across

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the entire fleet of, uh, Cirruses.

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Because, you know, even if you were
in a, a, you know, G1, right, um,

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00:09:28,638 --> 00:09:31,738
that in the Avidyne, like, that's
still a thing that's fully happening.

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00:09:31,748 --> 00:09:31,768
Yeah.

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00:09:31,778 --> 00:09:33,353
Those are new airplanes- Yeah.

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00:09:33,353 --> 00:09:36,128
Yeah … uh, for people, and we
still support those planes, uh-

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00:09:36,138 --> 00:09:38,718
Bill: Well, in the grand scheme
of things, they're new airplanes.

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00:09:38,758 --> 00:09:39,358
Eammon: Exactly, yes.

215
00:09:39,358 --> 00:09:39,526
If you look at,

216
00:09:39,526 --> 00:09:40,528
Bill: if you look at the whole fleet.

217
00:09:40,568 --> 00:09:40,888
Eammon: Yes.

218
00:09:41,178 --> 00:09:41,388
Yeah.

219
00:09:41,618 --> 00:09:43,058
I, we say this all the time, you know?

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00:09:43,058 --> 00:09:44,008
We get a little spoiled.

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00:09:44,008 --> 00:09:46,004
Like, we fly around in, you know,
brand-new airplanes all the time.

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00:09:46,004 --> 00:09:46,111
Yeah.

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00:09:46,111 --> 00:09:51,568
And like, let me tell you, like, that-
… that person's 25-year-old G1 is still,

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00:09:51,568 --> 00:09:56,048
like, really new compared to the, uh,
you know, my… I owned for a number

225
00:09:56,048 --> 00:09:58,968
of years a, a 1973 Citabria, you know?

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00:09:58,968 --> 00:09:59,418
And it's like-

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00:09:59,468 --> 00:10:00,108
Bill: And that's new.

228
00:10:00,168 --> 00:10:00,988
Eammon: Yeah, that's new.

229
00:10:00,998 --> 00:10:01,508
Right, yeah.

230
00:10:01,748 --> 00:10:04,468
I was talking to a guy at the booth
yesterday about… He's like, "Yeah,

231
00:10:04,488 --> 00:10:06,468
I've learned to fly at a '59 Tri-Pacer."

232
00:10:06,758 --> 00:10:06,798
Oh,

233
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Bill: yeah.

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00:10:07,178 --> 00:10:07,238
And I was

235
00:10:07,238 --> 00:10:08,988
Eammon: like, "Friend, welcome." Yeah.

236
00:10:08,988 --> 00:10:09,458
Like, let's-

237
00:10:09,488 --> 00:10:14,728
Bill: Well, I teach regularly
in, uh, uh, Piper Warriors.

238
00:10:14,798 --> 00:10:15,018
Eammon: Yeah.

239
00:10:15,048 --> 00:10:15,588
Bill: Or Cherokees.

240
00:10:15,688 --> 00:10:16,398
Eammon: Yeah, absolutely.

241
00:10:16,398 --> 00:10:16,678
Yeah.

242
00:10:16,678 --> 00:10:20,118
It's a, it's… Uh, you know,
airplanes, uh, age well, right?

243
00:10:20,138 --> 00:10:20,158
Yeah.

244
00:10:20,168 --> 00:10:20,188
Yeah.

245
00:10:20,228 --> 00:10:21,488
And, uh, yeah, so- If they're taken

246
00:10:21,488 --> 00:10:21,808
Bill: care of.

247
00:10:21,908 --> 00:10:23,148
Eammon: Then they are taken care of.

248
00:10:23,148 --> 00:10:23,888
And, so yeah.

249
00:10:23,918 --> 00:10:26,078
I mean, so that's, that, uh…

250
00:10:26,078 --> 00:10:28,948
Training has been a, a, is part of
our… You know, you'll see it on some

251
00:10:28,948 --> 00:10:30,628
of our materials and our marketing stuff.

252
00:10:30,678 --> 00:10:33,648
Uh, training is part of our
total safety system at Cirrus.

253
00:10:33,978 --> 00:10:37,458
Uh, so yeah, obviously that includes CAPS
and Safe Return and, you know, blue level

254
00:10:37,458 --> 00:10:39,228
button and EPS and all those things.

255
00:10:39,278 --> 00:10:42,178
But training is always mentioned in
there because we know a significant

256
00:10:42,178 --> 00:10:45,938
amount of, like, the aviation
experience is what you and your

257
00:10:45,938 --> 00:10:47,718
instructor are doing kind of one-on-one.

258
00:10:47,738 --> 00:10:52,098
So we see that as a high-touch, you know,
high, uh, customer service kind of thing.

259
00:10:52,098 --> 00:10:55,168
So all of the flight instructors,
that work with us, like, you

260
00:10:55,168 --> 00:10:57,448
know, that's a gigantic focus
of our- Yeah … whole thing.

261
00:10:57,668 --> 00:11:00,288
Bill: I imagine it's, uh, it's
a little tough because of all

262
00:11:00,288 --> 00:11:05,304
the different and types of to
standardize that program a little

263
00:11:09,072 --> 00:11:14,382
how does- how much does that differ
the training approach from who's

264
00:11:14,382 --> 00:11:15,712
buying a brand new, you know,

265
00:11:18,022 --> 00:11:20,302
Eammon: It doesn't… You know, so
what- one thing that I think we've

266
00:11:20,302 --> 00:11:23,722
done, I've only been here 18 months,
so I certainly can't take any, uh, you

267
00:11:23,722 --> 00:11:25,052
know, any or all the credit for this.

268
00:11:25,052 --> 00:11:28,762
But I think one thing that we've done
tremendously well is, uh, structured.

269
00:11:29,182 --> 00:11:32,122
We- I think what we do is we
have this, this kind of a way of

270
00:11:32,122 --> 00:11:35,902
structuring training, uh, that, you
know, based in, uh, you know, what

271
00:11:35,902 --> 00:11:37,052
I would call direct instruction.

272
00:11:37,072 --> 00:11:40,032
So we, we kind of do the instructional
experience kind of standardized

273
00:11:40,642 --> 00:11:44,482
regardless of what the, you
know, mission profile kind of is.

274
00:11:44,492 --> 00:11:46,212
So if you're in private, you'll see it.

275
00:11:46,302 --> 00:11:49,452
You might not even realize you're
seeing it, but we've kind of built the

276
00:11:49,452 --> 00:11:53,872
instructional ex- experience to be like,
"Oh, I'm going to get a couple nuggets

277
00:11:53,932 --> 00:11:56,522
of video from Anthony Bottini," right?

278
00:11:56,552 --> 00:12:00,212
And then, "Oh, there's gonna be, you
know, a ground lesson, uh, that's

279
00:12:00,212 --> 00:12:01,042
one-on-one with the instructor.

280
00:12:01,042 --> 00:12:04,062
It's a little more in-depth." Covers
the same kind of topics, but it's

281
00:12:04,062 --> 00:12:06,992
more advanced and allows- Yeah … for
that kind of Q&A kind of situation.

282
00:12:07,292 --> 00:12:10,482
And then I'm- then the flight is
not always paired to that ground

283
00:12:10,482 --> 00:12:14,172
information, but oftentimes there's
a common thread line, right?

284
00:12:14,172 --> 00:12:14,292
Yeah.

285
00:12:14,292 --> 00:12:17,072
And those are those places
where we ritualize safety.

286
00:12:17,072 --> 00:12:18,492
You know, like we, we make a big deal.

287
00:12:18,512 --> 00:12:21,432
So like, hey, the caps briefing,
whether you're in a G1 or you're

288
00:12:21,432 --> 00:12:23,012
in a G7, is pretty darn close.

289
00:12:23,012 --> 00:12:23,642
And guess what?

290
00:12:23,642 --> 00:12:27,132
Like when you come for private or you
come for annual training, you come

291
00:12:27,132 --> 00:12:30,702
for a simulator session, that's what
we're expecting to hear, you know?

292
00:12:30,702 --> 00:12:33,882
And then- and it's those things
that I think are the common thread.

293
00:12:34,202 --> 00:12:35,702
but we're always trying
to make it better, right?

294
00:12:35,702 --> 00:12:39,682
You know, we're- we're- we're always
very mindful of people's time, uh, you

295
00:12:39,682 --> 00:12:43,432
know, 'cause we recognize time as a…
We're selling time machines, right?

296
00:12:43,432 --> 00:12:43,442
Yeah.

297
00:12:43,442 --> 00:12:47,752
So we, we can't make the training onerous
or we want it to fit within their lives.

298
00:12:47,752 --> 00:12:52,442
So we're always kind of fighting on,
well, how long should this really take?

299
00:12:52,442 --> 00:12:55,742
Because, you know, you give a
person a 45-minute, you know,

300
00:12:55,752 --> 00:12:56,922
lesson here, you know, like,

301
00:12:56,942 --> 00:12:57,312
Bill: eh.

302
00:12:57,582 --> 00:12:57,752
Eammon: Yeah.

303
00:12:57,752 --> 00:12:58,932
I don't know if that's happening, right?

304
00:12:58,932 --> 00:12:59,152
You know?

305
00:12:59,152 --> 00:12:59,162
Right.

306
00:12:59,162 --> 00:13:03,032
So really tailoring the experience for
that kind of high customer, satisfaction

307
00:13:03,132 --> 00:13:04,312
is like what we're doing every day.

308
00:13:04,532 --> 00:13:04,832
Bill: All right.

309
00:13:05,252 --> 00:13:07,982
Well, I'm gonna touch on this a
little bit later more in depth, but,

310
00:13:08,062 --> 00:13:13,032
very doing anything you know, with
your academic background, right?

311
00:13:13,082 --> 00:13:13,232
Sure.

312
00:13:14,007 --> 00:13:15,812
This, may, uh, resonate with you.

313
00:13:16,252 --> 00:13:23,222
Are you doing take what you've
learned and give it to you will?

314
00:13:24,012 --> 00:13:24,452
Eammon: Yeah.

315
00:13:24,542 --> 00:13:28,032
Uh, so we have, we, I can't speak
directly about them, but we have

316
00:13:28,032 --> 00:13:30,412
two academic studies that are,
like, in work at the moment.

317
00:13:30,412 --> 00:13:30,702
Okay.

318
00:13:30,912 --> 00:13:34,872
Um, and, but I, what I can speak to
without the specificity of it is,

319
00:13:35,202 --> 00:13:40,692
we're particularly interested in, um,
uh, the term we kind of use internally

320
00:13:40,742 --> 00:13:44,322
is, like, time to independence, right?

321
00:13:44,322 --> 00:13:47,832
You know, so a lot of times,
you know, we, we just revised

322
00:13:47,882 --> 00:13:49,622
our private pilot curriculum.

323
00:13:49,672 --> 00:13:49,792
Okay.

324
00:13:49,802 --> 00:13:51,692
Uh, like, came out with
it less than a month ago.

325
00:13:51,972 --> 00:13:54,882
Um, so private pilot,
was a new product for us.

326
00:13:54,892 --> 00:13:54,912
Yeah,

327
00:13:54,912 --> 00:13:55,882
Bill: it's relatively new, right?

328
00:13:55,882 --> 00:13:56,112
Eammon: Yeah.

329
00:13:56,112 --> 00:13:56,122
Yeah.

330
00:13:56,122 --> 00:13:58,992
So in 2023 we came out with our first
version of the private pilot, and

331
00:13:58,992 --> 00:14:01,902
thought process here was, you know,
"Hey, we want a person to be able to

332
00:14:01,902 --> 00:14:03,532
learn to fly in the plane they bought."

333
00:14:03,972 --> 00:14:04,172
Bill: Yeah.

334
00:14:04,202 --> 00:14:04,502
Eammon: Right?

335
00:14:04,852 --> 00:14:09,892
And, uh, we made a, I think we made
a very, like, ambitious, like, "Hey,

336
00:14:09,922 --> 00:14:15,602
one-stop shop. Here's the course. It's
completely integrated, uh, all the ground

337
00:14:15,602 --> 00:14:19,762
knowledge, all the systems knowledge." you
know, it's kind of a big course, right?

338
00:14:20,042 --> 00:14:23,632
but we took, uh, the data from that
course, and we saw the places where

339
00:14:23,632 --> 00:14:26,252
people were stumbling, we saw the
peop- places where people were…

340
00:14:26,612 --> 00:14:30,002
And what it kind of came to, what, what
became kind of evident to me as we were

341
00:14:30,002 --> 00:14:34,862
kind of digging into the meat of the data
behind the course was things that you

342
00:14:34,862 --> 00:14:37,902
would, I think any flight instructor would
be like, "Yeah, that makes sense," right?

343
00:14:37,952 --> 00:14:40,462
and it's, you know, time,
like, the solo, right?

344
00:14:40,462 --> 00:14:43,172
You know, solo is such a big part
of private pilot and then, like,

345
00:14:43,342 --> 00:14:46,762
where you put those solos and where,
how we're using the simulators.

346
00:14:46,762 --> 00:14:50,532
And, uh, and what we found is, you know,
like, we built the course, like, with

347
00:14:50,532 --> 00:14:55,492
this, like, kind of design that, you
know, solo was at, like, lesson 15, right?

348
00:14:55,492 --> 00:14:56,972
And you had a bunch of ground
and you had a bunch of stuff.

349
00:14:57,372 --> 00:14:59,802
And if you look at the, you know, you
look at other curriculums out there, you

350
00:14:59,802 --> 00:15:04,502
look at Sportys and King Schools and,
uh, Gleim and, you know, like, Jeppesen,

351
00:15:04,512 --> 00:15:06,012
like, we know of all these things.

352
00:15:06,012 --> 00:15:09,022
Like, we are u- users
of the aviation system.

353
00:15:09,022 --> 00:15:12,062
We think general aviation and
personal aviation is, we want

354
00:15:12,062 --> 00:15:13,222
everyone to do better, right?

355
00:15:13,222 --> 00:15:17,062
You know, so we wanna, you know, we,
we look at all that stuff and, um,

356
00:15:17,682 --> 00:15:20,662
one thing that jumps out is- and if
you look at any curriculum, like, the

357
00:15:20,662 --> 00:15:24,722
solo is always pre-lesson 20 Always.

358
00:15:24,722 --> 00:15:25,172
Bill: Yeah.

359
00:15:25,272 --> 00:15:25,592
Eammon: Right?

360
00:15:25,592 --> 00:15:29,092
And I think this is, um, you know,
I think this is a holdover from kind

361
00:15:29,092 --> 00:15:30,402
of World War II thinking, right?

362
00:15:30,402 --> 00:15:31,072
Uh-huh.

363
00:15:31,072 --> 00:15:33,932
You know, and, you know, uh, Robert
Gagné was, you know, kind of one

364
00:15:33,932 --> 00:15:37,562
of those early instructional design
guys, and he was in the war effort.

365
00:15:37,942 --> 00:15:40,642
Uh, and you know, that was really
important to get, uh, you know, an

366
00:15:40,652 --> 00:15:45,532
airman at the time to solo before,
you know, 15 hours in the airplane.

367
00:15:45,562 --> 00:15:49,182
Well, you also didn't have radios, you
didn't have- Yeah … all these things-

368
00:15:49,182 --> 00:15:52,572
yeah … that now kind of complicate it,
and the Cirrus flies quite fast, right?

369
00:15:52,572 --> 00:15:52,602
Mm-hmm.

370
00:15:52,602 --> 00:15:55,092
You know, so teaching a person,
kind of in that environment.

371
00:15:55,092 --> 00:15:58,892
So what we found is, you know,
our speed to independence,

372
00:15:58,892 --> 00:15:59,762
that's the thing we're kind of…

373
00:15:59,772 --> 00:16:02,572
We want a person to be independent
and we want a person to be confident.

374
00:16:02,632 --> 00:16:06,022
So we even changed our grading system
to kind of represent that, in instrument

375
00:16:06,022 --> 00:16:09,072
grading, which we came out with last
September, and now in the refresh

376
00:16:09,072 --> 00:16:10,472
of what we did with Private Pilot.

377
00:16:11,122 --> 00:16:15,992
And our focus there is, you know, um…
I am not a fan of repeating lessons.

378
00:16:16,212 --> 00:16:19,042
Like, I don't think, like, it…
With- without design, right?

379
00:16:19,082 --> 00:16:21,942
Like, I think it's fine to repeat a
lesson so long as that was the plan.

380
00:16:22,072 --> 00:16:26,092
Because I think, um, what we found
is, you know, we have a lot, like,

381
00:16:26,202 --> 00:16:29,612
just like everyone, our, our private
pilot rate, uh, of completion is

382
00:16:29,672 --> 00:16:31,462
above the, like, national average.

383
00:16:31,472 --> 00:16:31,652
Uh-huh.

384
00:16:31,932 --> 00:16:32,912
But that's not good enough, right?

385
00:16:32,912 --> 00:16:34,992
We're still leaving too
many guys on the table, guys

386
00:16:35,202 --> 00:16:35,232
Bill: and

387
00:16:35,232 --> 00:16:35,272
Eammon: gals-

388
00:16:35,272 --> 00:16:37,542
Bill: It's a little skewed too,
because somebody presumably has already

389
00:16:37,642 --> 00:16:39,382
bought a million-dollar airplane, so

390
00:16:39,382 --> 00:16:43,222
- 
Eammon: Well, it's, some, some of it
is … So some of that is, yes, that.

391
00:16:43,272 --> 00:16:47,222
Uh, but it's also, we, we have a number,
you know, all of our, uh, locations

392
00:16:47,232 --> 00:16:48,792
do primary try- training- Oh, okay

393
00:16:48,802 --> 00:16:49,902
whether a person's a-

394
00:16:50,002 --> 00:16:50,252
Bill: Yeah

395
00:16:50,372 --> 00:16:51,632
… 
Eammon: uh, an owner or not, right?

396
00:16:51,632 --> 00:16:51,715
Okay.

397
00:16:51,715 --> 00:16:56,372
You know, so the vast majority of people
in Cirrus Approach are not owners, right?

398
00:16:56,382 --> 00:16:56,402
Yeah.

399
00:16:56,412 --> 00:16:57,992
They're part of a flying club.

400
00:16:58,002 --> 00:16:59,842
We have a tremendous amount
of fractional ownership.

401
00:16:59,842 --> 00:16:59,872
Okay.

402
00:16:59,872 --> 00:16:59,908
Yeah.

403
00:16:59,908 --> 00:17:02,192
We have a tremendous amount
of, you know, group things.

404
00:17:02,192 --> 00:17:05,342
Like, you know, so that's really
common to have a person learning

405
00:17:05,352 --> 00:17:09,042
in a Cirrus that maybe isn't even
their Cirrus, but it is a Cirrus.

406
00:17:09,042 --> 00:17:09,612
Uh-huh.

407
00:17:09,812 --> 00:17:12,532
And so the things that we're kind of
really focused on at the moment is kind

408
00:17:12,532 --> 00:17:15,882
of… Uh, and this is something that
I think when we kind of publish some

409
00:17:15,882 --> 00:17:18,952
of these studies and when we make…
continue to do things like we're doing

410
00:17:18,952 --> 00:17:21,702
right now with outreach- Uh-huh … we're
not trying to hide this, right?

411
00:17:21,702 --> 00:17:21,842
Right.

412
00:17:21,842 --> 00:17:27,002
We, we think, getting a person to a point
of confidence, right, without having this

413
00:17:27,032 --> 00:17:32,352
kind of, uh, sole focus on, "Well, you're
going to solo in, uh, you know, 10 hours,"

414
00:17:32,352 --> 00:17:35,532
or something like that, we think that is
not helpful to the conversation- Great

415
00:17:35,542 --> 00:17:38,632
… because it just kind of adds this,
like, level of burden and stress to it,

416
00:17:38,872 --> 00:17:42,352
where when we're talking, like, a person
learning to fly in a Cirrus, they're

417
00:17:42,352 --> 00:17:43,912
doing so because they want something.

418
00:17:43,912 --> 00:17:45,712
They want to enjoy the Cirrus life.

419
00:17:46,132 --> 00:17:49,902
And if we can make some of that Cirrus
life happen even in training, you know,

420
00:17:49,902 --> 00:17:52,692
that's, I think, some of the, you know,
some of the stuff that I think is going

421
00:17:52,692 --> 00:17:54,972
to be really good for not just us, but

422
00:17:56,352 --> 00:17:56,662
Bill: Yeah.

423
00:17:57,112 --> 00:18:02,372
one thing that's been pretty clear,
uh, in the lifespan Cirrus, since

424
00:18:02,372 --> 00:18:07,352
the G1 and even before, there was a
time where the fatal accident rate

425
00:18:07,402 --> 00:18:10,616
at Cirrus was, um, pretty average.

426
00:18:11,202 --> 00:18:18,265
and didn't seem… th- there was
quite a bit of in the industry was

427
00:18:18,285 --> 00:18:20,395
probably about 12, 14 ago, right?

428
00:18:20,495 --> 00:18:20,675
Eammon: Yeah.

429
00:18:21,005 --> 00:18:25,625
Bill: There's a lot of angst in
the industry about whether CAPS uh,

430
00:18:25,625 --> 00:18:29,595
useful or not in the fatal accident,
y- you know, things like that.

431
00:18:30,345 --> 00:18:33,855
that has shifted dramatically,
Yeah … over the last decade.

432
00:18:34,015 --> 00:18:34,195
Eammon: Yeah.

433
00:18:34,235 --> 00:18:34,535
Bill: Right?

434
00:18:34,735 --> 00:18:35,075
Eammon: 100%.

435
00:18:35,325 --> 00:18:41,566
Bill: and so what I'd like you to dig into
a little bit is how you're measuring this,

436
00:18:42,445 --> 00:18:47,895
and what do you think has been the big
There's, all kinds of discussions about is

437
00:18:50,805 --> 00:18:53,585
getting people used to,
being ready to pull CAPS?

438
00:18:53,625 --> 00:18:56,185
maybe it was that was there-

439
00:18:56,225 --> 00:18:56,445
Eammon: Yeah

440
00:18:56,865 --> 00:18:57,985
… 
Bill: but nobody was using it.

441
00:18:58,035 --> 00:18:58,205
Yeah.

442
00:18:58,235 --> 00:19:03,385
Or, is it more around some of
the nuances you're talking about?

443
00:19:03,395 --> 00:19:09,305
And then here's the most difficult part
of the How do you measure what i- is

444
00:19:09,305 --> 00:19:12,775
causation, what's actually working?

445
00:19:12,775 --> 00:19:15,735
You, you might be doing a few
different things over the last decade.

446
00:19:15,805 --> 00:19:15,955
Eammon: Yeah.

447
00:19:16,355 --> 00:19:20,985
Bill: how do you try and attribute what
you're seeing in the numbers that you

448
00:19:20,985 --> 00:19:24,565
might look at as success, what you're
seeing in the numbers that you think are

449
00:19:24,565 --> 00:19:29,075
opportunities that you still need to build
on, and how do you measure which levers

450
00:19:29,075 --> 00:19:30,825
you're pulling are making a difference?

451
00:19:30,985 --> 00:19:31,315
Eammon: Yeah.

452
00:19:31,755 --> 00:19:34,285
All very valid questions, yeah.

453
00:19:34,805 --> 00:19:37,395
uh, our overall thought process,
obviously we want, we want the

454
00:19:37,405 --> 00:19:38,675
fatal accident rate to be zero.

455
00:19:38,815 --> 00:19:41,025
We talk about it all the time, 100%.

456
00:19:41,405 --> 00:19:46,595
Um, a gigantic portion of the kind
of genesis of Cirrus Approach was to

457
00:19:46,595 --> 00:19:47,685
address the very thing you brought up.

458
00:19:47,695 --> 00:19:50,165
Fatal accident rate was kind
of high, and we're like, "Why?"

459
00:19:50,525 --> 00:19:54,315
Uh, and so one of our first courses was
a ve- a very straightforward CAPS course

460
00:19:54,515 --> 00:19:56,615
where… And that CAPS course is free.

461
00:19:56,905 --> 00:19:58,235
Uh, anyone in the world can take it.

462
00:19:58,575 --> 00:20:02,165
Um, and the thought process there
is, we humanize that moment.

463
00:20:02,195 --> 00:20:05,185
We know that the pulling CAPS
is, uh, kind of an aeronautical

464
00:20:05,185 --> 00:20:07,025
decision-making- Yeah … event, right?

465
00:20:07,025 --> 00:20:08,005
So we tackle it.

466
00:20:08,075 --> 00:20:13,265
one thing I think we do, you know, I think
pretty well, is we're pretty direct with

467
00:20:13,625 --> 00:20:15,645
how we think we can improve safety, right?

468
00:20:15,645 --> 00:20:19,475
And I'll give you a couple examples,
but, like, with the CAPS course, like,

469
00:20:19,515 --> 00:20:23,685
the choices we made there, with the
design of the course was highlight two

470
00:20:23,685 --> 00:20:27,825
specific situations that fully occurred
with the people that it occurred with

471
00:20:27,835 --> 00:20:31,775
photo and video from the actual events,
and talk, you know, kind of talk

472
00:20:31,775 --> 00:20:33,185
them through the th- the whole thing.

473
00:20:33,575 --> 00:20:38,815
Then what we do is, in the training
itself, every Cirrus instructor pilot,

474
00:20:38,825 --> 00:20:42,117
whether you're, you work for Cirrus
or you're one of our- you know, 500

475
00:20:42,117 --> 00:20:44,857
or so standardized instructor pilots
that are out there in the world.

476
00:20:45,277 --> 00:20:49,557
a CAPS briefing is always, uh,
it's in the checklist, right?

477
00:20:49,557 --> 00:20:49,567
Yeah.

478
00:20:49,567 --> 00:20:52,837
And, and we're expecting to hear,
you know, hey, before 600 feet,

479
00:20:52,837 --> 00:20:54,257
after 600 feet, up to 2,000.

480
00:20:54,427 --> 00:20:56,187
Like, we know, like, this is dialed in.

481
00:20:56,187 --> 00:20:58,027
And it's not just, it's not a rote thing.

482
00:20:58,027 --> 00:21:01,197
This is kind of one of those elements
that I think an interesting thing with

483
00:21:01,197 --> 00:21:05,527
Cirrus, and especially when we're working
in the jet, is I think there would be

484
00:21:05,527 --> 00:21:11,137
this concept of, hey, let's lean towards
airline kind of proficiency- Mm-hmm

485
00:21:11,137 --> 00:21:11,777
and thought processes.

486
00:21:12,207 --> 00:21:15,177
And I'd say the CAPS briefing is
actually an example of us doing that.

487
00:21:15,357 --> 00:21:18,477
But then there's other circumstances
where we, like, that doesn't make

488
00:21:18,477 --> 00:21:22,107
sen- the, the, the, like, the level
of aviator we're trying to work

489
00:21:22,107 --> 00:21:26,557
with is not necessarily at that, oh,
I've got four type ratings, right?

490
00:21:26,557 --> 00:21:26,767
You know?

491
00:21:26,767 --> 00:21:26,787
Yeah, yeah.

492
00:21:26,787 --> 00:21:27,917
Like, we don't need them to be there.

493
00:21:27,937 --> 00:21:28,197
Yeah.

494
00:21:28,307 --> 00:21:30,347
'cause that's, that's a
different thing, right?

495
00:21:30,447 --> 00:21:31,737
so I'd say the CAPS
briefing and- And they're

496
00:21:31,767 --> 00:21:34,747
Bill: generally single pilot, so-
Yeah … you, you have to adjust.

497
00:21:35,147 --> 00:21:35,367
Eammon: Yeah.

498
00:21:35,507 --> 00:21:38,487
Bill: You know, h- how
do I try and standardize?

499
00:21:38,517 --> 00:21:41,817
This is what I'm always trying
to do I, I don't always know the

500
00:21:41,817 --> 00:21:43,077
right answer on how to do it.

501
00:21:43,097 --> 00:21:43,117
Eammon: Yeah.

502
00:21:43,117 --> 00:21:43,557
100%.

503
00:21:43,737 --> 00:21:48,807
Bill: And you're trying to You're
trying to create a, a cockpit

504
00:21:48,807 --> 00:21:50,647
or a crew- Right … of one-

505
00:21:50,737 --> 00:21:50,987
Eammon: Yeah

506
00:21:51,467 --> 00:21:57,363
… 
Bill: that is a, a, at, as
efficient as crew of two at catching

507
00:21:58,417 --> 00:21:58,797
Eammon: Yes.

508
00:21:58,837 --> 00:21:59,197
Bill: Right?

509
00:21:59,197 --> 00:21:59,437
Eammon: Yeah.

510
00:21:59,487 --> 00:22:00,787
Bill: It's really difficult to do.

511
00:22:00,887 --> 00:22:01,057
Eammon: Yeah.

512
00:22:01,347 --> 00:22:04,227
Bill: And so I'm sure you guys have come
up with ways to do that, and part of

513
00:22:04,227 --> 00:22:06,117
that's probably the CAPS briefing- Yep

514
00:22:06,117 --> 00:22:07,277
and making sure it's not rote.

515
00:22:07,807 --> 00:22:08,157
Eammon: Yeah.

516
00:22:08,397 --> 00:22:09,697
Bill: So, so sorry to interrupt
your train of thought.

517
00:22:09,697 --> 00:22:10,297
No, no, no, you're fine.

518
00:22:10,357 --> 00:22:12,007
how do you approach that specific thing?

519
00:22:12,017 --> 00:22:13,517
How do you keep it from being rote?

520
00:22:13,557 --> 00:22:15,363
Because a lot of times a checklist can be

521
00:22:16,167 --> 00:22:16,567
Eammon: Yeah.

522
00:22:16,847 --> 00:22:21,597
I think what we find is, yes, it's,
So the way that we've been making

523
00:22:21,597 --> 00:22:25,427
it and working hard, like, the last,
uh, since I've been here is we've

524
00:22:25,437 --> 00:22:30,777
brought CAPS decision-making into more
novel training experiences, right?

525
00:22:30,787 --> 00:22:30,807
Yeah.

526
00:22:30,817 --> 00:22:36,267
So in, uh, in our, in the Mission Ready
Sim Session, uh, product that we came

527
00:22:36,267 --> 00:22:39,467
out this year, and I think com- y-
we're coming out with two every month

528
00:22:39,467 --> 00:22:44,657
basically, it is a free simulator-based
course, and the CAPS decision has

529
00:22:44,657 --> 00:22:49,097
come up in several of them and never
in a place that is an obvious place.

530
00:22:49,177 --> 00:22:49,617
Bill: Oh, okay, cool.

531
00:22:49,627 --> 00:22:49,877
Eammon: Right?

532
00:22:49,887 --> 00:22:54,937
So, hey, you briefed CAPS altitude,
you briefed what your plan is here,

533
00:22:55,127 --> 00:22:56,887
but you briefed that 40 minutes ago.

534
00:22:56,897 --> 00:22:57,207
Bill: Uh-huh.

535
00:22:57,557 --> 00:23:00,497
Eammon: And now you're, you're
flying over the Smoky Mountains.

536
00:23:00,637 --> 00:23:00,917
Mm-hmm.

537
00:23:00,917 --> 00:23:04,107
And your, your available, your AGL
is a little different than it was

538
00:23:04,107 --> 00:23:06,847
when you were… And now you're in
that bubble where you gotta make a

539
00:23:06,847 --> 00:23:08,827
decision on CAPS right this second.

540
00:23:09,127 --> 00:23:12,437
And we've allowed, in those kind
of circumstances in the simulator

541
00:23:12,437 --> 00:23:15,077
environment, which I think is a
fantastic place to do it, we've allowed

542
00:23:15,077 --> 00:23:19,277
people to make the wrong decision, and
there's nothing like making the wrong

543
00:23:19,277 --> 00:23:24,027
decision and seeing that experience,
uh, that real- I think internalizes a

544
00:23:24,027 --> 00:23:27,527
lot of pilots to being like, "Oh, this
is something I should think about."

545
00:23:27,867 --> 00:23:30,887
The other thing I think we've done a
really good job, and with our partners

546
00:23:30,887 --> 00:23:35,787
in COPA, like, done, I think really
well, is a lot of times, yes, the

547
00:23:35,787 --> 00:23:40,017
person's flying by themselves, but
a ton of times they're not, right?

548
00:23:40,017 --> 00:23:41,487
So having-

549
00:23:41,487 --> 00:23:42,177
Bill: Let me stop you real quick.

550
00:23:42,217 --> 00:23:43,077
You mentioned COPA.

551
00:23:43,087 --> 00:23:43,107
Yeah.

552
00:23:43,127 --> 00:23:46,297
I believe that stands for Cirrus
Owners and Pilots Association.

553
00:23:46,307 --> 00:23:46,337
Yes.

554
00:23:46,337 --> 00:23:46,517
Eammon: Yeah.

555
00:23:46,557 --> 00:23:48,117
Bill: Okay, so that's an
ownership group, right?

556
00:23:48,117 --> 00:23:48,417
It is,

557
00:23:48,417 --> 00:23:48,607
Eammon: yes.

558
00:23:48,617 --> 00:23:49,837
Bill: So I didn't want the listeners to-

559
00:23:49,837 --> 00:23:50,447
Eammon: Yeah, good point.

560
00:23:50,447 --> 00:23:50,567
My bad.

561
00:23:50,567 --> 00:23:50,627
Sorry.

562
00:23:50,627 --> 00:23:50,917
Yeah … not know what you were

563
00:23:50,917 --> 00:23:51,317
Bill: talking about.

564
00:23:51,317 --> 00:23:51,737
But go ahead.

565
00:23:51,747 --> 00:23:53,487
Eammon: You're in the- Go ahead
… you're in the Cirrus ecosystem.

566
00:23:53,487 --> 00:23:54,067
The bubble.

567
00:23:54,067 --> 00:23:54,357
Yeah.

568
00:23:54,357 --> 00:23:55,757
Everyone knows what we're talking about.

569
00:23:55,757 --> 00:23:55,817
Yeah.

570
00:23:55,817 --> 00:23:56,162
Yeah.

571
00:23:56,162 --> 00:23:56,507
No.

572
00:23:56,507 --> 00:23:58,827
So, uh, the, the Owners and
Pilots group, yeah, like,

573
00:23:58,827 --> 00:24:00,347
they're, um, they're fantastic.

574
00:24:00,347 --> 00:24:02,467
They come out with their own
content that we work with them on.

575
00:24:02,467 --> 00:24:02,487
Mm-hmm.

576
00:24:02,487 --> 00:24:05,927
And, uh, we're big supporters of
basically all of their initiatives

577
00:24:05,927 --> 00:24:09,567
because, again, uh, you know, it's
about r- you know, raising the safety

578
00:24:09,567 --> 00:24:11,977
level- Mm-hmm … across the board,
and we know that's not just our choice.

579
00:24:11,987 --> 00:24:12,847
It's everyone's choice.

580
00:24:13,287 --> 00:24:19,007
So, uh, but to that point, like, hey,
emphasizing when your spouse or when

581
00:24:19,007 --> 00:24:22,937
your children are on board, anyone
in the airplane can pull CAPS, right?

582
00:24:22,937 --> 00:24:22,947
Yeah.

583
00:24:22,947 --> 00:24:25,717
So giving the… And most people
when they get in the airplane,

584
00:24:25,977 --> 00:24:27,057
they're like, "What is that?" "What's

585
00:24:27,057 --> 00:24:27,797
Bill: that giant red

586
00:24:27,797 --> 00:24:29,907
Eammon: handle?" And it's
such an easy way- Yeah.

587
00:24:29,907 --> 00:24:31,907
to explain what's going on.

588
00:24:31,957 --> 00:24:37,789
And yeah, like, as of last week, we have
302 saves, and we see that as, like- Yeah.

589
00:24:37,949 --> 00:24:39,479
Now, the work's not done, right?

590
00:24:39,479 --> 00:24:43,389
You know, so this year in the annual
training course, you know, our, our

591
00:24:43,389 --> 00:24:46,559
annual training course this year focuses
a tremendous amount on go-arounds,

592
00:24:46,869 --> 00:24:49,249
low-energy flight, and spot landings.

593
00:24:49,509 --> 00:24:49,569
Yeah.

594
00:24:49,569 --> 00:24:51,709
Now, spot landings might seem
like a weird thing to focus on-

595
00:24:51,729 --> 00:24:52,559
Bill: I love that

596
00:24:52,909 --> 00:24:56,119
Eammon: but it's, it's to be
like you are operating at a,

597
00:24:56,159 --> 00:24:58,479
a 50-foot wide strip, right?

598
00:24:58,479 --> 00:25:00,859
You know, like, your sight picture
might be look- looking different.

599
00:25:01,019 --> 00:25:02,179
And all of these decisions- Or

600
00:25:02,179 --> 00:25:02,819
Bill: a field-

601
00:25:02,889 --> 00:25:03,399
Eammon: Or a field … in an

602
00:25:03,399 --> 00:25:04,009
Bill: emergency.

603
00:25:04,049 --> 00:25:04,449
Yeah.

604
00:25:04,449 --> 00:25:04,529
Right?

605
00:25:04,529 --> 00:25:04,609
Yeah.

606
00:25:04,609 --> 00:25:09,179
Eammon: And all of these things also tie
into the CAPS decision, which our, our

607
00:25:09,179 --> 00:25:12,269
thought process is the pull ear- pull,
pull early and pull often, you know?

608
00:25:12,269 --> 00:25:12,279
Yeah.

609
00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:12,289
Yeah.

610
00:25:12,289 --> 00:25:14,539
Like, that is, that is how we
talk about it- Yeah … right?

611
00:25:14,539 --> 00:25:16,439
Because, uh, we know
you're gonna walk away.

612
00:25:16,479 --> 00:25:17,569
Like, it's gonna be fine.

613
00:25:17,619 --> 00:25:18,079
Yeah.

614
00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:18,235
yeah, yeah.

615
00:25:18,235 --> 00:25:21,611
And, uh, a lot of those airplanes with
people who pull CAPS on come back and fly.

616
00:25:21,801 --> 00:25:21,981
Yeah.

617
00:25:22,021 --> 00:25:22,281
You know?

618
00:25:22,281 --> 00:25:23,841
So it's, it's kind of a remarkable thing.

619
00:25:24,631 --> 00:25:28,481
Bill: Yeah, I, I love the spot landing
training because it does so much.

620
00:25:28,681 --> 00:25:28,711
Yeah.

621
00:25:28,711 --> 00:25:30,621
I mean, it teaches energy
management and t- Yeah … I mean,

622
00:25:30,621 --> 00:25:31,851
there's just so much in there.

623
00:25:31,921 --> 00:25:32,221
Eammon: Yeah.

624
00:25:32,231 --> 00:25:32,791
Bill: So that's good.

625
00:25:32,791 --> 00:25:32,841
Yeah.

626
00:25:32,851 --> 00:25:36,741
Eammon: We really like those things that
like, sure, it's spot landing, right?

627
00:25:36,741 --> 00:25:40,751
But like, it's like the, well, the, a lot
of time when I'm talking to the people

628
00:25:40,751 --> 00:25:43,941
making the training, right, uh, people,
you know, writing the syllabus and stuff

629
00:25:43,941 --> 00:25:47,041
like that, it's like, listen, we have
an A bo- A story and a B story, right?

630
00:25:47,041 --> 00:25:48,921
An A story is, like, the plot, right?

631
00:25:49,091 --> 00:25:51,381
But the B story is, like, the
moral of the story, right?

632
00:25:51,381 --> 00:25:53,701
Like, the, the thing, the lesson
you're supposed to take away from it.

633
00:25:53,701 --> 00:25:57,491
So the plot might be, hey, let's figure
out your, your spot landing here-

634
00:25:57,501 --> 00:26:00,571
Yeah … and we're gonna have a little
competition with using, uh, IQ and- Yeah.

635
00:26:00,771 --> 00:26:04,261
Right … see if, see if you get that,
uh, Seneca's 100% Challenge coin, right?

636
00:26:04,311 --> 00:26:08,381
Uh, but the secondary thing is like,
hey, even if you got a 97 on your

637
00:26:08,381 --> 00:26:11,001
approach score, what that meant
is you were stable at 500 feet.

638
00:26:11,171 --> 00:26:11,201
Yep.

639
00:26:11,211 --> 00:26:12,961
You came over the fence, set VREF.

640
00:26:13,681 --> 00:26:14,541
Man, like,

641
00:26:14,541 --> 00:26:14,801
Bill: you did-

642
00:26:14,801 --> 00:26:14,981
Eammon: Yeah.

643
00:26:14,981 --> 00:26:16,148
Nice job … you did the things.

644
00:26:16,148 --> 00:26:16,481
Yeah, exactly.

645
00:26:16,481 --> 00:26:17,951
Like, you, mission accomplished.

646
00:26:17,951 --> 00:26:17,971
Yeah.

647
00:26:17,981 --> 00:26:18,471
Way to go.

648
00:26:18,551 --> 00:26:18,841
Bill: Yeah.

649
00:26:18,961 --> 00:26:19,341
Excellent.

650
00:26:19,451 --> 00:26:19,696
Eammon: Yeah.

651
00:26:19,839 --> 00:26:24,589
Bill: So let's talk about your, your
standardized instructor training.

652
00:26:24,709 --> 00:26:24,979
Eammon: Yeah.

653
00:26:25,029 --> 00:26:25,299
Bill: Okay.

654
00:26:25,299 --> 00:26:25,709
I think it's CISP?

655
00:26:27,039 --> 00:26:27,429
Eammon: CSIP.

656
00:26:27,709 --> 00:26:28,049
Yeah.

657
00:26:28,049 --> 00:26:28,759
So Cirrus-

658
00:26:28,759 --> 00:26:29,499
Bill: C-S-I-P, right?

659
00:26:29,499 --> 00:26:29,959
Eammon: CSIP.

660
00:26:30,029 --> 00:26:30,129
Okay.

661
00:26:30,129 --> 00:26:30,679
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

662
00:26:30,679 --> 00:26:31,789
Bill: And what does that stand for?

663
00:26:32,029 --> 00:26:33,839
Eammon: Uh, Cirrus
Standardized Instructor Pilot.

664
00:26:34,159 --> 00:26:34,439
Bill: Okay.

665
00:26:34,489 --> 00:26:34,699
Eammon: Yeah.

666
00:26:35,139 --> 00:26:41,289
Bill: so I think the goal here is,
a CSIP in- Oh … or let's talk

667
00:26:41,289 --> 00:26:42,689
it from the owner's perspective.

668
00:26:42,729 --> 00:26:45,629
A, a Cirrus owner Munich-

669
00:26:45,719 --> 00:26:45,959
Eammon: Yeah

670
00:26:46,989 --> 00:26:50,479
Bill: essentially going to
get very similar standardized

671
00:26:50,499 --> 00:26:54,199
training from an instructor there-
Yeah … that they might get in

672
00:26:55,179 --> 00:26:55,989
Eammon: Uh, yeah, 100%.

673
00:26:56,149 --> 00:26:59,199
Bill: So s- so this is
a large undertaking-

674
00:26:59,369 --> 00:26:59,689
Eammon: Yeah

675
00:26:59,749 --> 00:27:02,269
… 
Bill: to, keep that as
standardized as possible.

676
00:27:02,289 --> 00:27:04,829
Can you talk about how you're
doing that, how you're measuring

677
00:27:04,829 --> 00:27:06,349
it, and how it's going?

678
00:27:06,569 --> 00:27:06,909
Eammon: Oh, absolutely.

679
00:27:06,909 --> 00:27:08,099
Bill: And what you wanna do in the future.

680
00:27:08,239 --> 00:27:08,579
Eammon: Yeah.

681
00:27:08,709 --> 00:27:12,709
Yeah, so the, the CSIP program is…
We get asked, I mean, I, I was asked

682
00:27:12,739 --> 00:27:15,899
probably five or six times yesterday,
like, "How do I become a CSIP?" Mm-hmm.

683
00:27:16,029 --> 00:27:17,879
Uh, and that's a normal process.

684
00:27:17,919 --> 00:27:21,129
You know, like, um, it, it's a bit
of a business relationship, right?

685
00:27:21,129 --> 00:27:25,909
You know, we, uh, we work with
professional instructors that have

686
00:27:25,909 --> 00:27:30,219
dedicated a no small portion of their
life to becoming, you know, an elevated

687
00:27:30,219 --> 00:27:31,639
kind of flight instructor, right?

688
00:27:31,639 --> 00:27:34,849
not a person that's necessarily, you
know, gunning for the minimum time

689
00:27:34,849 --> 00:27:35,819
and- Yeah … getting to the airlines.

690
00:27:35,859 --> 00:27:37,299
There's no wrong- nothing wrong with that.

691
00:27:37,299 --> 00:27:37,389
Yeah.

692
00:27:37,389 --> 00:27:39,569
That's a real thing, and
we respect that as well.

693
00:27:39,859 --> 00:27:40,319
But, uh, for-

694
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:41,929
Bill: Airline pilots have to
come from somewhere, right?

695
00:27:41,929 --> 00:27:42,249
Eammon: Yeah.

696
00:27:42,309 --> 00:27:43,559
Uh, I was an airline pilot.

697
00:27:43,559 --> 00:27:44,379
I understand that life.

698
00:27:44,389 --> 00:27:45,099
Believe me- … I get it.

699
00:27:45,149 --> 00:27:45,449
Right.

700
00:27:45,459 --> 00:27:49,339
So, uh, but yeah, the CSIP is
really tailored towards that person

701
00:27:49,339 --> 00:27:52,729
that's going to really kinda be
our partner, who's a field, right?

702
00:27:52,729 --> 00:27:55,709
You know, uh, the CSIPs are, are
normally kind of independent from a,

703
00:27:55,759 --> 00:27:58,349
a formalized FBO or a flight school-
Uh-huh … or something like that.

704
00:27:58,779 --> 00:28:02,629
Uh, and, uh, the training they get, uh,
you know, they're coming to Knoxville,

705
00:28:02,709 --> 00:28:04,139
and they're getting a bit immersed.

706
00:28:04,139 --> 00:28:05,989
So Knoxville is where
the vision center is.

707
00:28:05,999 --> 00:28:08,489
It's where we do a tremendous
amount of our customer training.

708
00:28:08,489 --> 00:28:11,119
It's where we do all of our jet
training, uh, with the exception of some

709
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:12,679
recurrent, which is now in Scottsdale.

710
00:28:12,949 --> 00:28:17,269
But, um, yeah, I mean, you're coming in
and you're, you're seeing, you know, how

711
00:28:17,269 --> 00:28:19,049
we elevate the flight training experience.

712
00:28:19,049 --> 00:28:20,909
Like, you're seeing what
our briefings look like.

713
00:28:20,909 --> 00:28:23,399
You're seeing, uh, what our
customer training looks like.

714
00:28:23,399 --> 00:28:25,549
you're working with, with, uh, with us.

715
00:28:25,549 --> 00:28:28,299
It's not just a… You're not
just coming for an IPC, and we're

716
00:28:28,299 --> 00:28:29,389
like, "Oh, you're good." Yeah.

717
00:28:29,399 --> 00:28:30,659
Uh, it's really that.

718
00:28:30,689 --> 00:28:34,659
And then in terms of the measurement,
yeah, we, we measure, like, everything.

719
00:28:34,669 --> 00:28:38,159
we measure, uh, hey, how many
people have, uh, gone through…

720
00:28:38,179 --> 00:28:39,599
How many Embark trainings you doing?

721
00:28:39,599 --> 00:28:44,159
So people that don't know what Embark is,
you know, we, we care tr- like, we care

722
00:28:44,159 --> 00:28:48,419
about training so much, I know it sounds
probably like, I don't know, but, but, uh,

723
00:28:48,419 --> 00:28:51,409
we care about training so much that, like,
we're willing, like Cirrus is willing

724
00:28:51,409 --> 00:28:52,959
to pay the training forward, right?

725
00:28:52,959 --> 00:28:56,459
So if you bought a, a pre-owned
Cirrus, you bought a, a G3, a G5,

726
00:28:56,489 --> 00:28:59,699
doesn't matter what it is, we'll
set you up with a CSIP, right?

727
00:28:59,699 --> 00:29:01,859
Or, or a CTC, you know, in this case.

728
00:29:01,939 --> 00:29:05,279
But we'll set you up, and, and
we'll pay for the training.

729
00:29:05,289 --> 00:29:07,879
You know, you, you're still gonna cover
the airplane and the gas and all that,

730
00:29:07,879 --> 00:29:09,159
but we assume that's your plane, right?

731
00:29:09,159 --> 00:29:09,269
Yeah.

732
00:29:09,269 --> 00:29:09,559
So-

733
00:29:09,719 --> 00:29:09,959
Bill: Right

734
00:29:09,999 --> 00:29:10,329
… 
Eammon: you know.

735
00:29:10,679 --> 00:29:13,409
so but we'll provide the
instructor gratis, right?

736
00:29:13,409 --> 00:29:14,599
Because we think it's that important.

737
00:29:14,609 --> 00:29:14,629
Yeah.

738
00:29:14,639 --> 00:29:15,799
we think going

739
00:29:15,799 --> 00:29:16,659
Bill: from a- That is,
that is very unique.

740
00:29:16,869 --> 00:29:17,259
Eammon: Yeah.

741
00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:19,659
We know- Yeah … and, and
it's no small measure, right?

742
00:29:19,659 --> 00:29:21,809
I mean, uh, you know, the, the
revenues we make from, like, you

743
00:29:21,809 --> 00:29:25,249
know, course sales and stuff like
that, you know, are meant to basically

744
00:29:25,249 --> 00:29:26,799
kind of compensate for that, right?

745
00:29:26,799 --> 00:29:26,819
Yeah.

746
00:29:26,819 --> 00:29:30,659
You know, so like, you know, like the
thought process there is we want to be

747
00:29:30,659 --> 00:29:34,709
able to make sure that anyone that gets
in a Cirrus, you know, got, got with

748
00:29:34,709 --> 00:29:37,689
a CSIP and, and make sure they, they
went through the transition course.

749
00:29:37,689 --> 00:29:40,279
And those transition courses,
we do the most of those out of

750
00:29:40,279 --> 00:29:41,759
any courses we offer out there.

751
00:29:42,109 --> 00:29:46,899
And, um, yeah, I think, I think
that ins- instructor training that

752
00:29:46,899 --> 00:29:49,819
we're doing in Knoxville and then
how that matriculates throughout

753
00:29:49,819 --> 00:29:51,129
the network is one of those things.

754
00:29:51,129 --> 00:29:54,739
I mean, we have monthly calls,
we have weekly safety briefings.

755
00:29:55,009 --> 00:29:57,629
when you come to work with Cirrus as
a flight instructor and/or whether

756
00:29:57,629 --> 00:30:01,179
you're a, or you're an independent
CSIP, you're committing to a, a, I

757
00:30:01,179 --> 00:30:05,389
would say, a very heightened level
of safety awareness, heightened level

758
00:30:05,399 --> 00:30:07,109
of communication that I do think

759
00:30:07,109 --> 00:30:10,939
I mean, I, I worked at, I've, you know,
I've worked at several airlines and, uh,

760
00:30:11,539 --> 00:30:13,449
I think it rivals that in a lot of ways.

761
00:30:13,449 --> 00:30:15,879
You know, um, um, I think
at the appropriate level.

762
00:30:15,909 --> 00:30:15,929
Yeah.

763
00:30:15,939 --> 00:30:19,129
But, like, yeah, like the
communication is, is great and

764
00:30:19,129 --> 00:30:23,089
quick and w- and very, um, you know,
it's a big culture of safety thing.

765
00:30:23,199 --> 00:30:23,409
Bill: Yeah.

766
00:30:23,899 --> 00:30:27,259
So you mentioned the analog with airlines.

767
00:30:28,589 --> 00:30:30,369
in the airlines there's
quite a bit of oversight

768
00:30:32,769 --> 00:30:38,399
How do you the, level of consistency
that you're presumably after-

769
00:30:38,469 --> 00:30:38,739
Eammon: Yeah

770
00:30:38,949 --> 00:30:39,919
Bill: going forward

771
00:30:43,099 --> 00:30:45,619
Um, oversight?

772
00:30:45,629 --> 00:30:50,749
Do you have ride-alongs anything
like that in your program

773
00:30:50,749 --> 00:30:52,459
to kind of help ensure that

774
00:30:53,649 --> 00:30:54,019
Eammon: Yeah.

775
00:30:54,019 --> 00:30:58,259
And so anyone that is a Cirrus instructor,
goes through… We basically, we

776
00:30:58,259 --> 00:31:00,849
put them on a, a annual path, right?

777
00:31:00,849 --> 00:31:04,649
That annual path includes that, you
know, they've got to do a, um, you

778
00:31:04,649 --> 00:31:06,639
know, kind of an annual review, right?

779
00:31:06,639 --> 00:31:10,219
Which is just kind of a, a, "Hey, these
are the things that have updated." Uh,

780
00:31:10,219 --> 00:31:13,219
so very similar to, you know, a 121
recurrent or something like that- Okay.

781
00:31:13,219 --> 00:31:13,459
Yeah … you know?

782
00:31:13,799 --> 00:31:16,399
So, uh, it's, it's sh- shorter, right?

783
00:31:16,399 --> 00:31:19,069
It's, it's a three-day, kind of
a three or four-day event, right?

784
00:31:19,069 --> 00:31:19,204
Yeah.

785
00:31:19,204 --> 00:31:19,929
And so we do do that.

786
00:31:19,939 --> 00:31:20,769
We do exactly that.

787
00:31:20,779 --> 00:31:21,329
Okay, yeah.

788
00:31:21,329 --> 00:31:23,709
And then, uh, every six months,
you know, you're not always gonna

789
00:31:23,709 --> 00:31:25,039
have an instrument student, right?

790
00:31:25,039 --> 00:31:26,659
So we do, uh, it's very specific.

791
00:31:26,659 --> 00:31:31,319
We do an IPC every six months just to make
sure that your physical flying skills, uh,

792
00:31:31,319 --> 00:31:34,649
in the instrument environment are where,
you know, where you need them to be.

793
00:31:34,829 --> 00:31:38,859
And normally these are very, you know,
they… I think so much of training

794
00:31:38,899 --> 00:31:40,299
is just setting the expectation.

795
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:40,599
Yeah.

796
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:44,119
So when you come to be a instructor
with Cirrus, like, the expectation

797
00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:46,679
is, "Hey, yeah, you're gonna have
two training events a year- Yeah

798
00:31:48,707 --> 00:31:49,857
Obviously- Yeah … right?

799
00:31:49,917 --> 00:31:53,607
Uh, and because things change, and
we're a dynamic company, and, you

800
00:31:53,607 --> 00:31:57,957
know, we might have a big focus going
for, you know, three months, and then

801
00:31:57,987 --> 00:32:00,657
three months from then we might have
a totally different focus based off of

802
00:32:00,657 --> 00:32:03,007
what we're seeing in the field, right?

803
00:32:03,157 --> 00:32:06,807
And then secondarily, we do, we keep,
we very much keep track of everything

804
00:32:06,807 --> 00:32:10,827
from, you know, we, we keep track of,
you know, how many recurrence a person's

805
00:32:10,827 --> 00:32:12,447
doing, how many annuals a person's doing.

806
00:32:12,807 --> 00:32:13,787
we keep track of all that stuff.

807
00:32:13,887 --> 00:32:19,547
Bill: yeah, so along those lines, Eamonn,
they, um, they do this recurrent training.

808
00:32:19,607 --> 00:32:20,677
You're tracking.

809
00:32:20,687 --> 00:32:24,307
You're always results, the
numbers, and things like that.

810
00:32:25,027 --> 00:32:29,377
One of the most difficult numbers
to get, it's not saves you've had.

811
00:32:29,377 --> 00:32:33,117
It's not how many accidents there are
or, heaven forbid, fatalities, right?

812
00:32:33,137 --> 00:32:33,167
Sure.

813
00:32:33,777 --> 00:32:34,637
Easy to track.

814
00:32:35,047 --> 00:32:36,187
It's that denominator-

815
00:32:36,667 --> 00:32:36,847
Eammon: Yeah

816
00:32:36,847 --> 00:32:37,727
… 
Bill: that's hard to track.

817
00:32:37,727 --> 00:32:43,767
So I'm curious what you you know,
what you can share about how you

818
00:32:43,767 --> 00:32:50,957
track denominator how, how well
you're doing flight hours or how many-

819
00:32:51,117 --> 00:32:51,337
Eammon: Yeah

820
00:32:51,387 --> 00:32:52,807
Bill: uh, the air.

821
00:32:53,107 --> 00:32:57,227
I know you guys do some self-reporting
through COPA, I think, and- Mm-hmm

822
00:32:57,547 --> 00:32:59,277
… also through your maintenance programs.

823
00:32:59,277 --> 00:33:02,877
You're probably able to gather
Yeah … things like that.

824
00:33:03,347 --> 00:33:05,357
are you doing this with
consent of the owners?

825
00:33:05,357 --> 00:33:06,447
Is it all anonymized?

826
00:33:06,677 --> 00:33:11,177
It… H- how are you gathering the
the denominator to figure out how well

827
00:33:12,007 --> 00:33:12,287
Eammon: Yeah.

828
00:33:12,337 --> 00:33:14,587
The thing we're, the thing we've
been… Uh, so we don't necessarily

829
00:33:14,587 --> 00:33:15,617
have all the answer to that-

830
00:33:15,737 --> 00:33:15,957
Bill: Yeah

831
00:33:16,177 --> 00:33:16,757
… 
Eammon: to be clear.

832
00:33:16,897 --> 00:33:17,037
The

833
00:33:17,217 --> 00:33:18,037
Bill: thing- It's a, it's a hard problem.

834
00:33:18,067 --> 00:33:20,297
We're always t- always
trying to figure it out.

835
00:33:20,357 --> 00:33:23,767
Eammon: The thing we are doing, right,
is, uh, and the thing that I think

836
00:33:23,767 --> 00:33:27,257
we've been focused quite a bit on, and
you could see it in our actions, right?

837
00:33:27,257 --> 00:33:29,997
You know, so if you come to the
booth here at Oshkosh, you'll see

838
00:33:29,997 --> 00:33:33,977
that Cirrus Approach is seated
right next to Cirrus IQ, right?

839
00:33:33,977 --> 00:33:37,747
And Cirrus IQ is, uh, for those not
initiated into the Cirrus bubble,

840
00:33:37,987 --> 00:33:42,547
Cirrus IQ is, is, uh, basically our,
our data package, it's based off the

841
00:33:42,547 --> 00:33:47,727
Garmin GDL60, and then our programming
on the backside to essentially,

842
00:33:47,917 --> 00:33:49,747
yes, the data can be anonymized.

843
00:33:49,787 --> 00:33:51,787
Like, we know who it is 'cause
it's tied to an airplane.

844
00:33:51,817 --> 00:33:51,997
Yep.

845
00:33:52,187 --> 00:33:52,477
Right?

846
00:33:52,567 --> 00:33:56,267
but how we've been packaging that
is, uh, you can see that in approach

847
00:33:56,267 --> 00:33:59,107
score, and you can see that in, you
know, the, you know, uh, maintenance

848
00:33:59,107 --> 00:34:02,617
and- Mm-hmm … you know, all these
kinds of things that are, perceived as

849
00:34:02,617 --> 00:34:04,167
creature comforts maybe to some degree.

850
00:34:04,167 --> 00:34:06,257
But, like, our plane is not
a creature comfort thing.

851
00:34:06,257 --> 00:34:08,637
Uh, you know, like we,
we talk about it a lot.

852
00:34:08,637 --> 00:34:12,767
So the reason we're doing that stuff
with IQ is i- it's our intention… So

853
00:34:12,767 --> 00:34:15,697
we've been doing a beta pr- test for the
last six months with a program called

854
00:34:15,697 --> 00:34:20,737
Master Pilot, uh, to, use some AI to, you
know, help with the debriefing process.

855
00:34:20,737 --> 00:34:27,317
And what that does is it takes data from
IQ and really crafts it to improve the,

856
00:34:27,317 --> 00:34:29,007
like, debriefing experience, if you will

857
00:34:29,568 --> 00:34:30,128
Bill: All right.

858
00:34:30,318 --> 00:34:31,848
Well, we got booted out of our room.

859
00:34:32,088 --> 00:34:34,698
Uh, so we're gonna continue
the l- last little bit of this

860
00:34:34,698 --> 00:34:38,588
interview here- in a slightly
different room, different backdrop.

861
00:34:38,728 --> 00:34:38,888
Yeah.

862
00:34:38,888 --> 00:34:42,448
Another nice so as you were
saying- As I was saying- I think

863
00:34:42,448 --> 00:34:44,298
you were talking about your- Yeah

864
00:34:44,298 --> 00:34:45,228
approach next to your-

865
00:34:45,628 --> 00:34:49,128
Eammon: Yeah, so, I m- there's, uh,
without question our focus here,

866
00:34:49,238 --> 00:34:54,478
over the next year, is we're going
to increase the amount of, you know,

867
00:34:54,518 --> 00:34:58,338
kind of practical data coming off
of IQ and then being put into our,

868
00:34:58,638 --> 00:35:00,088
into our training products, right?

869
00:35:00,088 --> 00:35:01,598
and I'll give you an
example of this, right?

870
00:35:01,598 --> 00:35:04,408
Like, we work with a lot of flight
schools, and most flight schools right

871
00:35:04,408 --> 00:35:07,188
now are having their instructors log their
time in, like, two or three different

872
00:35:07,198 --> 00:35:10,588
things because the unit of commerce at
a flight school- Uh-huh … is normally-

873
00:35:10,688 --> 00:35:11,578
Yeah, time … flying hours, right?

874
00:35:11,578 --> 00:35:11,648
Yeah.

875
00:35:11,648 --> 00:35:14,368
You know, so if you're putting
something into your maintenance softw-

876
00:35:14,368 --> 00:35:16,818
you know, maintenance software, and
you're putting something into, like,

877
00:35:17,048 --> 00:35:20,058
Flight Schedule Pro or, you know,
like, Logbook 10 or whatever, any

878
00:35:20,058 --> 00:35:23,158
of that jazz, you know, that's not
necessarily the most ideal experience.

879
00:35:23,158 --> 00:35:23,228
Yeah.

880
00:35:23,238 --> 00:35:26,218
So we're integrating with a bunch of
those as well to make it- Oh, okay.

881
00:35:26,248 --> 00:35:27,128
Interesting … easy for those folks.

882
00:35:27,508 --> 00:35:31,058
but yeah, it'd be really great if we
had a, a kind of a experience that

883
00:35:31,058 --> 00:35:34,478
kind of represented, you know, that
kind of the same level of seamless

884
00:35:34,478 --> 00:35:37,048
experience we're expecting with the
rest of Cirrus to be represented.

885
00:35:37,058 --> 00:35:40,168
So now that we have all this data coming
off the airplane, which is incredible,

886
00:35:40,458 --> 00:35:45,308
you know, uh, I think what you'll see in
the, you know, pretty near future is us,

887
00:35:45,648 --> 00:35:49,938
you know, hey, when a flight gets done,
you know, um, especially with the stuff

888
00:35:49,938 --> 00:35:53,408
that we're doing with the Track 10, you
know, our new airplane, um, which is

889
00:35:53,528 --> 00:35:54,848
built for the training environment- Mm-hmm

890
00:35:54,848 --> 00:35:58,498
I think you're gonna find yourself,
like the debriefing experience is going

891
00:35:58,498 --> 00:36:02,638
to be one where, hey, like, here's
what, here's how everything went.

892
00:36:02,708 --> 00:36:04,858
Like, is this normal trajectory?

893
00:36:04,948 --> 00:36:07,668
Is this normal be- you know, behavior?

894
00:36:07,668 --> 00:36:10,248
Is it emergent behavior of
better skill development?

895
00:36:10,468 --> 00:36:14,348
And I think we're gonna get very nuanced
to the point that, you know, hey, we

896
00:36:14,348 --> 00:36:18,028
noticed this thing happening when you
were doing your steep turns, right?

897
00:36:18,398 --> 00:36:20,748
we're gonna take this exact same
scenario, and then we're gonna port

898
00:36:20,748 --> 00:36:24,888
it into a simulator environment so you
can drill and practice without needing

899
00:36:24,898 --> 00:36:28,508
the airplane, uh, to get yourself to a
proficiency, so the next time you go and

900
00:36:28,508 --> 00:36:32,378
fly this maneuver, you not only know why
it didn't go the right way that- Right

901
00:36:32,378 --> 00:36:34,668
that last time, but, but you know
how to fix it, and you know how to

902
00:36:35,238 --> 00:36:38,618
g- give yourself the confidence, you
know, to be the pilot you wanna be.

903
00:36:38,878 --> 00:36:40,758
And, uh, that's not just in private pilot.

904
00:36:40,788 --> 00:36:44,978
You know, our, our… You know, you could
already see what we're doing with, um, uh,

905
00:36:45,018 --> 00:36:48,468
if you're, you know, paying attention with
the Mission Ready Sim product we have and

906
00:36:48,468 --> 00:36:49,728
then the annual training product we have.

907
00:36:49,728 --> 00:36:52,648
It's our intention to… A good
pilot is always learning, right?

908
00:36:52,648 --> 00:36:52,678
Mm-hmm.

909
00:36:52,678 --> 00:36:57,108
So if we give people, we think
right-sized, offerings throughout the

910
00:36:57,108 --> 00:37:01,008
year, uh, and then tie that to, say,
experience milestones, like, hey, you hit

911
00:37:01,008 --> 00:37:03,088
50 hours this year, or you hit 100 hours.

912
00:37:03,188 --> 00:37:05,418
Uh, a lot of times the word like
gamification's thrown around,

913
00:37:05,418 --> 00:37:07,748
and there's a part of me that's
cheapens that a little bit.

914
00:37:07,748 --> 00:37:11,728
It's more like what I would love to
see is, yeah, sure, leaderboards and

915
00:37:11,728 --> 00:37:15,460
stuff like that are fun- But I think
most, uh, most individuals, especially

916
00:37:15,460 --> 00:37:18,890
pilot individuals, you know, they're,
they're interested in making sure that

917
00:37:18,890 --> 00:37:20,460
they're safe and confident and good.

918
00:37:20,810 --> 00:37:24,650
And if we can give them an experience
that, helps them make that decision

919
00:37:24,650 --> 00:37:27,580
on a daily basis with some data,
I think most of our pilots are

920
00:37:27,590 --> 00:37:28,810
gonna be very interested in that.

921
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,370
And I think most of the industry will
see that as, "Oh, okay, this is something

922
00:37:32,380 --> 00:37:36,740
we can all really do." and yeah, I think
that's- so measurement is gonna be a

923
00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:40,560
tremendous, uh, point of focus- Yeah
… for the next, maybe forever, right?

924
00:37:40,570 --> 00:37:41,660
Bill: You seem like a data guy.

925
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:42,420
Eammon: I might be a data guy.

926
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:43,150
Yeah, I might be.

927
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:43,180
Yeah.

928
00:37:43,210 --> 00:37:43,610
I might be.

929
00:37:43,610 --> 00:37:44,520
The evidence makes sense.

930
00:37:44,690 --> 00:37:46,380
Yeah, let's- that's probably true.

931
00:37:46,570 --> 00:37:46,990
Bill: Excellent.

932
00:37:47,450 --> 00:37:53,795
So that leads me kind of the final area I
we talked about it a little bit, and that

933
00:37:53,795 --> 00:38:03,355
is, taking, uh, this excellent work that
and, uh, helping rest of the industry.

934
00:38:03,455 --> 00:38:03,675
Yeah.

935
00:38:03,715 --> 00:38:07,219
And you already talked about
kinda share some of your data.

936
00:38:07,895 --> 00:38:14,923
how else is Cirrus, Beyond owner group-

937
00:38:15,023 --> 00:38:15,263
Eammon: Yeah

938
00:38:15,373 --> 00:38:18,113
Bill: how else are you, trying
to reach out to the rest of

939
00:38:18,133 --> 00:38:21,819
the lift, level everywhere?

940
00:38:22,683 --> 00:38:23,053
Eammon: Yeah.

941
00:38:23,083 --> 00:38:26,883
So, we sit, uh, probably the most
direct way I could say is we sit on

942
00:38:26,883 --> 00:38:28,913
a, a number of committees, right?

943
00:38:28,913 --> 00:38:28,933
Mm-hmm.

944
00:38:28,933 --> 00:38:33,563
And those committees, uh, with Gamma,
and with, um, AOPA, and you know,

945
00:38:33,703 --> 00:38:36,843
uh, so we're, we're doing, uh, I, I
think we're doing a tremendous amount

946
00:38:36,843 --> 00:38:41,873
to, you know, share the things we've
learned that actually work, right?

947
00:38:41,913 --> 00:38:43,343
Uh, or we see work, right?

948
00:38:43,343 --> 00:38:43,363
Yeah.

949
00:38:43,363 --> 00:38:45,713
Maybe they wouldn't work in every
context, but I think we've done

950
00:38:45,713 --> 00:38:48,233
a lot there, and I think we're
gonna continue to do a lot there.

951
00:38:48,683 --> 00:38:52,973
The other thing I think you'll see, uh,
you could already see in, like, um, you

952
00:38:52,973 --> 00:38:56,663
know, you could kinda see it today with
the Apple Vision Pro app we have, is we're

953
00:38:56,663 --> 00:38:58,543
trying to just increase accessibility.

954
00:38:58,793 --> 00:39:02,223
And, um, there's some stuff that we're,
that you'll see coming down the pipe

955
00:39:02,223 --> 00:39:06,573
here in a little bit that I think
is, is about that, like, okay, can we

956
00:39:07,233 --> 00:39:13,273
onboard people into aviation without
them necessarily needing to find a

957
00:39:13,273 --> 00:39:14,813
flight school immediately, right?

958
00:39:14,813 --> 00:39:19,653
Like, what is, how do we increase
the scope of people, uh, that know

959
00:39:19,653 --> 00:39:22,303
that aviation is a possibility for
them, and know that aviation is,

960
00:39:22,303 --> 00:39:24,093
like, incredibly safe in reality?

961
00:39:24,103 --> 00:39:24,123
Yeah.

962
00:39:24,533 --> 00:39:26,383
Those things I think we're
gonna continue to do.

963
00:39:26,393 --> 00:39:27,453
Bill: So growing the community.

964
00:39:27,673 --> 00:39:28,743
Eammon: That's exactly it, yeah.

965
00:39:28,743 --> 00:39:28,753
Yeah.

966
00:39:28,753 --> 00:39:30,653
So we're gonna, I think we're
gonna continue to do that.

967
00:39:30,653 --> 00:39:33,623
So, so on one side, yeah, I think
we're gonna continue to try to lead

968
00:39:33,623 --> 00:39:35,103
conversations on the policy side.

969
00:39:35,413 --> 00:39:38,433
I also think we're gonna do, you know,
and you can already see some of the

970
00:39:38,433 --> 00:39:41,973
evidence of this, it's our intention
to make it very clear to anyone whether

971
00:39:41,973 --> 00:39:46,883
they fly Cirrus ever or not that
general aviation is a thing for them.

972
00:39:46,883 --> 00:39:47,210
Mm-hmm.

973
00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:49,893
Like, it, it's a thing for everyone,
and democratizing aviation is

974
00:39:49,903 --> 00:39:52,633
something that's, like, incredibly
important to Cirrus at large.

975
00:39:52,633 --> 00:39:55,513
So, and, and I think you're gonna continue
to see efforts to do exactly that.

976
00:39:55,693 --> 00:39:59,113
Bill: Yeah, and it helps, it, it
helps financially as well because

977
00:39:59,123 --> 00:40:02,093
the, you have a larger target
audience to market to, right?

978
00:40:02,103 --> 00:40:02,743
Eammon: Sure, sure.

979
00:40:02,883 --> 00:40:03,103
Bill: Yeah.

980
00:40:03,103 --> 00:40:03,228
Yeah.

981
00:40:03,228 --> 00:40:03,573
So, so

982
00:40:03,633 --> 00:40:04,233
Eammon: there's- Yeah, don't get me wrong

983
00:40:04,233 --> 00:40:04,593
… 
Bill: an incentive there
from, from everywhere.

984
00:40:04,633 --> 00:40:05,203
Eammon: there's reasons.

985
00:40:05,203 --> 00:40:05,343
Bill: Yeah.

986
00:40:05,383 --> 00:40:05,793
Eammon: Yeah, yeah.

987
00:40:05,793 --> 00:40:05,813
Yeah, yeah.

988
00:40:05,813 --> 00:40:09,133
It's, it's, uh, you know, if, if,
if your first plane is a, you know,

989
00:40:09,133 --> 00:40:11,583
a, a Piper War- you know, I learned
to fly in a Piper Warrior, right?

990
00:40:11,593 --> 00:40:11,613
Yeah.

991
00:40:11,613 --> 00:40:12,193
There's, uh- Mm-hmm

992
00:40:12,293 --> 00:40:13,603
absolutely nothing wrong with that plane.

993
00:40:13,603 --> 00:40:13,698
Yep.

994
00:40:13,698 --> 00:40:14,263
It's a great plane.

995
00:40:14,493 --> 00:40:18,253
but you know, like, when you wanna
go, you know, uh, 180 miles an hour,

996
00:40:18,263 --> 00:40:21,163
you know, like, or 180 knots or
whatever, um, you know, you probably

997
00:40:21,163 --> 00:40:22,043
need something a little beyond that.

998
00:40:22,043 --> 00:40:22,178
Yep.

999
00:40:22,178 --> 00:40:22,313
Right?

1000
00:40:22,313 --> 00:40:26,133
So we see that as there, there are
very clear entry points, into Cirrus

1001
00:40:26,133 --> 00:40:30,043
and, and yeah, we think if we, we get
more people to get into any airplane,

1002
00:40:30,073 --> 00:40:31,050
eventually they'll get to a Cirrus.

1003
00:40:31,050 --> 00:40:31,253
Well, you

1004
00:40:31,253 --> 00:40:33,023
Bill: guys sell a lot of them- We- … so
you must be doing something … we're

1005
00:40:33,023 --> 00:40:33,443
Eammon: trying.

1006
00:40:33,513 --> 00:40:33,893
We're trying.

1007
00:40:34,073 --> 00:40:35,093
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1008
00:40:35,143 --> 00:40:35,503
Bill: Excellent.

1009
00:40:35,503 --> 00:40:40,261
So I guess the last question then is what
have I not asked- That I should have-

1010
00:40:40,511 --> 00:40:40,911
Eammon: Oh, well-

1011
00:40:40,911 --> 00:40:42,401
Bill: Because, you know,
I'm not that smart.

1012
00:40:42,471 --> 00:40:44,611
Eammon: No, no, no, yeah, I
bet you're plenty smart, man.

1013
00:40:44,671 --> 00:40:48,321
Uh, I'd say the one thing we didn't
cover at all, uh, you know, um,

1014
00:40:48,321 --> 00:40:51,041
and, and probably because, you
know, it, it's mostly a pilot, uh,

1015
00:40:51,041 --> 00:40:53,921
but the maintenance training is one
of these things that, um- Oh, yeah

1016
00:40:53,921 --> 00:40:58,281
I think Cirrus, is doing something
that is also, you know, the, our

1017
00:40:58,281 --> 00:41:01,231
maintainers are not always the people
that we're thinking about first

1018
00:41:01,231 --> 00:41:02,141
when we're thinking about training.

1019
00:41:02,151 --> 00:41:02,171
Mm-hmm.

1020
00:41:02,171 --> 00:41:03,791
Like, oh, well, they just know everything.

1021
00:41:04,031 --> 00:41:04,121
Yeah.

1022
00:41:04,221 --> 00:41:06,931
You know, if you're coming up with
a new airplane every year, you know,

1023
00:41:06,931 --> 00:41:08,461
like that's a new and unique challenge.

1024
00:41:08,461 --> 00:41:11,821
And, and one of the benefits of the
maintenance training we're doing

1025
00:41:11,831 --> 00:41:17,231
is, uh, we have a number, it's not
every pilot, but you know, let's say

1026
00:41:17,231 --> 00:41:22,691
10 or 20% of the demographic really
wants to know- what's going on in the

1027
00:41:22,691 --> 00:41:25,491
engine- Mm-hmm … at that particular
moment in time and you know, what the

1028
00:41:25,491 --> 00:41:27,181
service bulletin actually really means.

1029
00:41:27,541 --> 00:41:31,121
but like I think, uh, a thing you'll
see like pretty, like y- you can see it

1030
00:41:31,121 --> 00:41:35,541
already is, you know, the just, you know,
when we came up with a G3, Vision Jet,

1031
00:41:35,871 --> 00:41:39,651
you know, the, it's a, there, the changes
on the maintenance side were a bit more,

1032
00:41:39,661 --> 00:41:43,986
like they were, they're more than the
changes on the pilot side to some degree.

1033
00:41:43,986 --> 00:41:44,016
Oh, interesting.

1034
00:41:44,016 --> 00:41:44,031
Okay.

1035
00:41:44,031 --> 00:41:47,301
Like, you know, not from a reg- like
from a, a, it's kind of a mix, right?

1036
00:41:47,301 --> 00:41:50,071
You know, so, it's, G3 is a
tremendous improvement on a couple

1037
00:41:50,081 --> 00:41:52,641
things on the pilot side, uh,
but it's an iteration, right?

1038
00:41:52,641 --> 00:41:55,721
And th- those iterations then expand
into the maintenance side quite a bit,

1039
00:41:56,151 --> 00:42:01,111
and having training, like ready at
the point in which the plane is like

1040
00:42:01,171 --> 00:42:02,661
actually rolling off the line- Yeah

1041
00:42:02,851 --> 00:42:06,311
is one of those things that I think
maintenance organizations, uh, like

1042
00:42:06,311 --> 00:42:09,311
if you go and talk to your A&P, or
you go and talk, and you ask them

1043
00:42:09,311 --> 00:42:11,791
what training they've had- Yeah … I
think sometimes you're gonna get

1044
00:42:11,791 --> 00:42:14,161
like very not satisfactory answers.

1045
00:42:14,161 --> 00:42:14,601
Yeah, that's

1046
00:42:14,601 --> 00:42:14,941
Bill: true.

1047
00:42:14,941 --> 00:42:16,401
Eammon: And at Cirrus, we
don't want that to be the case.

1048
00:42:16,401 --> 00:42:16,771
It's almost

1049
00:42:16,771 --> 00:42:18,301
Bill: all on-the-job training kind of.

1050
00:42:18,301 --> 00:42:19,361
Eammon: All on the job, right?

1051
00:42:19,361 --> 00:42:19,371
Yeah.

1052
00:42:19,371 --> 00:42:20,631
And so you know how that works.

1053
00:42:20,641 --> 00:42:20,661
Yeah.

1054
00:42:20,661 --> 00:42:23,601
Can you imagine, you know, if, could
you imagine if there was no, like

1055
00:42:23,621 --> 00:42:26,821
on the pilot side, we would never
think of doing something like that.

1056
00:42:26,821 --> 00:42:26,941
Right.

1057
00:42:26,941 --> 00:42:29,591
Like, oh, well, you're ready when that
guy over there tells you you're ready.

1058
00:42:29,801 --> 00:42:29,981
Bill: Mm-hmm.

1059
00:42:29,981 --> 00:42:32,171
Eammon: And that's a pretty
common practice in maintenance.

1060
00:42:32,181 --> 00:42:36,101
Mm. Uh, and, and what that does is because
we have some of the similar things going

1061
00:42:36,101 --> 00:42:39,711
on, with, you know, just, you know, the
number of maintainers and the number of

1062
00:42:39,711 --> 00:42:41,341
pilots not being a satisfactory amount.

1063
00:42:41,561 --> 00:42:44,971
What winds up happening is at a lot of
locations, you wind up having, you know,

1064
00:42:44,971 --> 00:42:48,991
kind of new maintainers, just like you
have new flight instructors entering, you

1065
00:42:49,001 --> 00:42:53,161
have new maintainers, and they don't have
that 10 years of experience of what this

1066
00:42:53,201 --> 00:42:54,641
looks like when it doesn't look right.

1067
00:42:54,861 --> 00:42:57,581
So one s- one thing that Cirrus has
been, uh, doing, I think a tremendous

1068
00:42:57,581 --> 00:43:01,621
amount and, of work on, and I think
it really shows in, in, you know, our

1069
00:43:01,621 --> 00:43:05,191
service records and stuff like that,
that our maintainers are trained, right?

1070
00:43:05,191 --> 00:43:07,671
Our, our maintainers are
like, they go to class.

1071
00:43:07,711 --> 00:43:10,551
They've got, you know, we onboard
them in a very specific way.

1072
00:43:10,841 --> 00:43:13,501
Uh, and I think that's one of
those things that it's not the most

1073
00:43:13,501 --> 00:43:16,241
flashy thing, but it really changes-

1074
00:43:16,261 --> 00:43:16,981
Bill: Super important though.

1075
00:43:17,001 --> 00:43:17,271
Eammon: Yeah.

1076
00:43:17,271 --> 00:43:20,651
It, it- Yeah … it changes the whole
kind of, you know, if we, if we take

1077
00:43:20,651 --> 00:43:23,521
care of our maintainers, and we, we
make sure that they feel confident

1078
00:43:23,521 --> 00:43:26,361
on the job, and they have the tools
necessary for them, well, guess what?

1079
00:43:26,361 --> 00:43:28,201
That airplane's getting out
the door a little faster.

1080
00:43:28,311 --> 00:43:28,521
Bill: Yeah.

1081
00:43:28,571 --> 00:43:28,901
Eammon: Right?

1082
00:43:28,901 --> 00:43:29,121
It's in-

1083
00:43:29,121 --> 00:43:30,221
Bill: And, and it's gonna be safer.

1084
00:43:30,271 --> 00:43:31,281
Eammon: And it's gonna be safer.

1085
00:43:31,281 --> 00:43:31,291
Yeah.

1086
00:43:31,291 --> 00:43:34,231
And, and it, and we, we operate with
more certainty that the aircraft's

1087
00:43:34,241 --> 00:43:35,591
gonna, you know, execute to the mission.

1088
00:43:35,641 --> 00:43:35,921
Bill: Mm-hmm.

1089
00:43:36,251 --> 00:43:37,941
Eammon: Those things are one of
those things that might not be

1090
00:43:37,941 --> 00:43:41,071
the flashiest thing, but it's,
man, it's, it's really important.

1091
00:43:41,151 --> 00:43:41,591
Um-

1092
00:43:41,591 --> 00:43:41,891
Bill: Yeah, it's a

1093
00:43:41,891 --> 00:43:42,091
Eammon: good point.

1094
00:43:42,091 --> 00:43:44,281
So that's, that would be the only
thing we didn't talk about, I think.

1095
00:43:44,291 --> 00:43:44,661
Bill: Awesome.

1096
00:43:45,241 --> 00:43:45,581
All right.

1097
00:43:45,581 --> 00:43:48,361
Well, Eamon, thank you so much for-
Yeah … taking the time to do this.

1098
00:43:48,381 --> 00:43:49,331
Really interesting.

1099
00:43:49,511 --> 00:43:51,371
Love to get inside your brain
a little bit- Yeah … and

1100
00:43:51,541 --> 00:43:52,781
see how you're applying the

1101
00:43:56,031 --> 00:43:56,881
Eammon: Yeah, I appreciate your time.

1102
00:43:56,891 --> 00:43:58,627
Sorry for do-si-doing the room on you-

1103
00:43:58,627 --> 00:43:58,753
Bill: No,

1104
00:43:58,753 --> 00:44:00,501
Eammon: no worries at
all … a little bit.

1105
00:44:00,501 --> 00:44:00,581
But thanks.

1106
00:44:00,581 --> 00:44:00,661
Thank you so much.

1107
00:44:00,661 --> 00:44:00,701
Well, I appreciate that.

1108
00:44:00,701 --> 00:44:01,231
Yeah, absolutely.

1109
00:44:03,842 --> 00:44:04,352
Bill: All right.

1110
00:44:04,642 --> 00:44:07,172
Three things I took out
of that and one bonus.

1111
00:44:07,542 --> 00:44:09,982
One, structure beats hours.

1112
00:44:10,602 --> 00:44:14,102
The phrase he used was time to
independence, which I thought was

1113
00:44:14,102 --> 00:44:16,902
interesting, and I've been kind
of thinking about that ever since.

1114
00:44:17,282 --> 00:44:21,092
Their whole redesign of the private
pilot course came from looking at

1115
00:44:21,092 --> 00:44:25,612
where people actually stumbled, and one
of the things they found is that the

1116
00:44:25,612 --> 00:44:30,322
solo milestone had become a source of
pressure instead of a source of progress.

1117
00:44:30,942 --> 00:44:34,502
And when he pointed out that every
syllabus on the market basically puts

1118
00:44:34,502 --> 00:44:39,262
solo before lesson 20 or whatever that
means, and it traces back to wartime

1119
00:44:39,262 --> 00:44:44,442
training when you had 15 hours and no
radios and, you know, dedicated training.

1120
00:44:44,932 --> 00:44:47,962
I've taught out of some of those
syllabi, and I've never once asked

1121
00:44:47,962 --> 00:44:52,662
where that number comes from and
why we teach that way, why solo

1122
00:44:52,662 --> 00:44:56,732
is such, you know, an important
milestone that we focus on it so much.

1123
00:44:57,452 --> 00:44:59,952
So here's your takeaway,
and it cuts both ways.

1124
00:45:00,162 --> 00:45:04,282
Students, if you're behind
somebody else's number, who cares?

1125
00:45:04,362 --> 00:45:07,002
That number could be 60
years older than you are.

1126
00:45:07,382 --> 00:45:11,462
And instructors, know your milestones
and why they sit where they sit, and

1127
00:45:11,462 --> 00:45:17,580
don't be afraid to move them if the
situation dictates Two, ritualize the

1128
00:45:17,580 --> 00:45:19,580
decisions you hope you never have to make.

1129
00:45:20,450 --> 00:45:25,430
In this example, the CAPS briefing happens
on every flight, in every generation

1130
00:45:25,430 --> 00:45:29,250
of the airplane, from a brand-new G7
all the way back to a 25-year-old G1.

1131
00:45:29,710 --> 00:45:34,290
Same briefing, private student or annual
recurrent training, doesn't matter.

1132
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:35,530
It's the ritual.

1133
00:45:36,250 --> 00:45:41,290
But the part I really liked is that they
keep it from getting to become rote.

1134
00:45:41,690 --> 00:45:45,360
They drop the CAPS decision into the
simulator in places that you're not

1135
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,770
expecting it, 40 minutes after you
briefed it, whatever, over terrain

1136
00:45:49,770 --> 00:45:54,050
that's changed, and then you get to
get it wrong and watch what happens.

1137
00:45:54,310 --> 00:45:55,950
That is good training.

1138
00:45:57,130 --> 00:45:58,660
You don't have a parachute probably.

1139
00:45:58,700 --> 00:46:02,230
I don't fly with a parachute, but
that's not really the point here.

1140
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,120
You have the same problem no matter what
kind of airplane you're, you're flying.

1141
00:46:06,450 --> 00:46:10,080
Pick the decision that you'd hate
to make, whether it's the diversion

1142
00:46:10,090 --> 00:46:11,970
or an engine out on takeoff.

1143
00:46:12,210 --> 00:46:18,690
Brief it out loud every single flight
the same way, and then when you're

1144
00:46:18,690 --> 00:46:21,520
training sometimes, get it wrong.

1145
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,240
You wanna get it wrong when it's
cheap to get it wrong, so in a

1146
00:46:25,240 --> 00:46:28,850
simulated fashion with an instructor
in a simulator, something like that.

1147
00:46:29,250 --> 00:46:33,790
But get it wrong sometimes
and evaluate how well you did.

1148
00:46:34,770 --> 00:46:40,010
And three, standardization
is a system, not really a

1149
00:46:40,110 --> 00:46:41,750
document or something like that.

1150
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,560
A CSIP, for example, the Cirrus
Standardized Instructor Pilot,

1151
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,270
is on an annual recurrent path.

1152
00:46:48,580 --> 00:46:50,380
They, they do annual training.

1153
00:46:50,700 --> 00:46:53,920
Um, they do an IPC every six months,
whether they've had an instrument

1154
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:58,660
student or not, monthly calls, weekly
safety briefin- briefings, you know,

1155
00:46:58,660 --> 00:47:01,130
things that, that keep it standardized.

1156
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:06,100
He compared the communication
rhythm to an airline, and he'd know.

1157
00:47:06,130 --> 00:47:10,930
He used to fly for, for at least one,
and that's kinda the actual mechanism.

1158
00:47:10,980 --> 00:47:15,380
It's, it's not a binder or a
document or something like that.

1159
00:47:15,810 --> 00:47:17,600
It's related to the calendar.

1160
00:47:17,820 --> 00:47:18,700
It's recurrent.

1161
00:47:18,940 --> 00:47:22,150
It's, it's training all the time.

1162
00:47:23,100 --> 00:47:24,930
And here's the part that
surprised me the most.

1163
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:30,120
If you buy a used Cirrus, a, you know,
an older one, doesn't matter, no money

1164
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:31,890
goes to Cirrus in that transaction.

1165
00:47:32,190 --> 00:47:34,850
They'll still pay for the
instructor to transition you.

1166
00:47:35,330 --> 00:47:37,780
That's the Embark program
that he was talking about.

1167
00:47:37,780 --> 00:47:39,680
You cover the airplane
and the fuel, of course.

1168
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:41,260
They cover the CFI.

1169
00:47:41,940 --> 00:47:45,040
I don't know of any other
manufacturer that does that.

1170
00:47:45,180 --> 00:47:46,060
There may be some.

1171
00:47:46,070 --> 00:47:47,530
If there are, let me know.

1172
00:47:47,930 --> 00:47:53,550
Uh, but I think that's pretty unique,
and I think it's pretty important, um,

1173
00:47:53,570 --> 00:47:55,490
that that's become part of their ethos.

1174
00:47:56,660 --> 00:48:00,620
And here's the bonus, which I
brought up when I asked what I

1175
00:48:00,630 --> 00:48:03,920
should have asked and didn't, and
he brought up maintenance training.

1176
00:48:04,340 --> 00:48:08,680
So go ask your A&P what formal
training they've had on your airplane.

1177
00:48:10,350 --> 00:48:13,360
If Eamonn's right, and I think he
is, most of the time there hasn't

1178
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:17,890
been any formal training on specific
airplanes or specific airframes.

1179
00:48:18,550 --> 00:48:22,610
So you might get uncomfortable with
the answer because that's not really

1180
00:48:22,610 --> 00:48:24,020
how it works most of the time.

1181
00:48:24,700 --> 00:48:27,140
Um, you, you kind of get this

1182
00:48:29,462 --> 00:48:33,062
on-the-job training, if you will,
sometimes, which is very good.

1183
00:48:33,452 --> 00:48:37,642
Uh, but I think it would be
important for A&Ps to train, uh,

1184
00:48:37,652 --> 00:48:41,762
do some formal training on the
airframes that they are maintaining.

1185
00:48:42,112 --> 00:48:45,782
Uh, I think that's something we
could learn from, uh, from Cirrus and

1186
00:48:45,782 --> 00:48:47,302
apply it to the rest of the industry.

1187
00:48:48,392 --> 00:48:49,962
So you know the drill.

1188
00:48:50,212 --> 00:48:53,642
Voicemail line is at
studentpilotcast.com/voicemail.

1189
00:48:54,082 --> 00:48:57,632
The Friday Flight Brief goes
out most Fridays, and you can

1190
00:48:57,632 --> 00:49:00,692
always just hit reply and tell me
when I'm wrong about something.

1191
00:49:01,862 --> 00:49:03,542
Two specific things this week.

1192
00:49:04,472 --> 00:49:08,782
One, the Cirrus CAPS course is free,
and it's open to anybody online.

1193
00:49:08,782 --> 00:49:10,142
You don't have to own a Cirrus.

1194
00:49:10,472 --> 00:49:11,552
You don't have to fly one.

1195
00:49:11,952 --> 00:49:16,292
It's a real piece of aeronautical
decision-making training built around

1196
00:49:16,292 --> 00:49:20,562
two accidents that actually happened,
with the real photos and the real video.

1197
00:49:20,562 --> 00:49:23,352
So if you're so inclined, go take it.

1198
00:49:23,832 --> 00:49:26,832
Same for their Mission Ready Sim
sessions and things like that.

1199
00:49:27,302 --> 00:49:33,892
Um, or do similar things with other
organizations, but do additional training.

1200
00:49:34,342 --> 00:49:36,762
Uh, this will always, always be helpful.

1201
00:49:37,602 --> 00:49:40,602
And two, and I want to hear
from you guys about this one.

1202
00:49:40,982 --> 00:49:43,542
What's the ritual in your flying?

1203
00:49:43,902 --> 00:49:48,202
The thing that you say out loud every
single flight the same way, whether or

1204
00:49:48,202 --> 00:49:50,482
not anybody's with you in the airplane.

1205
00:49:50,912 --> 00:49:52,732
D- Tell me what that ritual is.

1206
00:49:52,732 --> 00:49:54,472
Tell me what you guys are doing.

1207
00:49:54,772 --> 00:49:56,152
I may learn something from it.

1208
00:49:56,482 --> 00:50:00,572
I may be able to pass that on
to students, um, recurring or

1209
00:50:00,582 --> 00:50:01,872
primary students, whatever.

1210
00:50:02,182 --> 00:50:05,432
So let me know what you do and
what you like about what you do.

1211
00:50:07,112 --> 00:50:08,422
One more thing before I go.

1212
00:50:08,792 --> 00:50:12,162
Somewhere in the middle of that
conversation, Eamonn told me he

1213
00:50:12,162 --> 00:50:13,762
learned to fly in a Piper Warrior.

1214
00:50:14,672 --> 00:50:16,672
That's the airplane I
teach in a lot of days.

1215
00:50:17,342 --> 00:50:19,622
That's the airplane a bunch
of you are probably learning

1216
00:50:19,622 --> 00:50:21,652
in now or have learned in.

1217
00:50:22,552 --> 00:50:25,922
It's the one with the paint chipping
off the cowl and the yoke that's

1218
00:50:25,922 --> 00:50:29,702
shiny from 40 or 45 years of
hands that have been holding it.

1219
00:50:30,012 --> 00:50:33,962
You know, all the things on these,
these workhorses of the industry.

1220
00:50:34,722 --> 00:50:39,242
The man who runs training for an airplane
that costs over a million dollars learned

1221
00:50:39,242 --> 00:50:44,722
to fly in the same airplane that you and
I did, or very similar ones, and his line

1222
00:50:44,732 --> 00:50:49,232
about it was there's absolutely nothing
wrong with that airplane, of course.

1223
00:50:49,852 --> 00:50:51,602
He said something else that stuck with me.

1224
00:50:51,982 --> 00:50:56,582
He said that it's their intention to make
it clear to anybody, whether they ever fly

1225
00:50:56,582 --> 00:51:02,502
a Cirrus or not, that general aviation is
a thing for them, that aviation is, and

1226
00:51:02,502 --> 00:51:07,792
I'm quoting, "Incredibly safe in reality."
Democratizing aviation, he called it.

1227
00:51:08,052 --> 00:51:12,392
And y- yeah, there's a business reason
why he would want more pilots in the

1228
00:51:12,392 --> 00:51:16,532
world, and I talked to him about that
in the interview, and, uh, he agreed.

1229
00:51:17,092 --> 00:51:19,092
But both things can be true at once.

1230
00:51:19,932 --> 00:51:22,712
But I've spent a lot of this summer
thinking about the differences

1231
00:51:22,712 --> 00:51:27,152
between training that's good enough
and training that isn't, for reasons

1232
00:51:27,162 --> 00:51:28,462
some of you probably know about.

1233
00:51:28,682 --> 00:51:30,502
I've been thinking about
it extra hard this summer.

1234
00:51:30,882 --> 00:51:35,752
So when somebody tells me that they've
spent their career trying to make pilots

1235
00:51:35,752 --> 00:51:43,192
better trained, a PhD, an ATP, and an A&P
all pointed at that one thing, I'm just

1236
00:51:43,192 --> 00:51:45,502
grateful that they're out there doing it.

1237
00:51:46,022 --> 00:51:50,512
However silly it makes the business
card look with all those letters, I'm

1238
00:51:50,512 --> 00:51:54,942
glad that Eamonn's out there thinking
about this and sharing with us what

1239
00:51:54,952 --> 00:51:56,642
he's learning and what he's learned

1240
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:07,200
So I'm still flying, still learning, and
remember, the solo was never the end goal