You're too into fashion to be a serious journalist

and I've always enjoyed proving people wrong.

So from that point onwards, I was like, I'm going to show you

that I absolutely am serious and I can do it whilst

I'm wearing whatever I want.

Welcome to psychologically speaking with me,

Leila Ainge. This is a podcast

all about human behavior, weaving

together fascinating research, opinions and real

life experiences. I'll give you a psychologist

insight into how we behave in spaces we live

and work in, and how they in turn shape

us. This season, we're exploring

my favorite topic, impostor phenomenon.

So get comfy and let's dive into today's

episode.

In 2022, I conducted the first piece

of research that asked the entrepreneurial

community about their experiences of impostor

phenomenon in online community spaces.

The research is rich and, it brings out

really interesting perspectives that cover

visibility, coping with comparison and being in

an online level playing field

thrown in with the experiences and feelings of being

visible. Women opened, up about the way in which they

use clothes and accessories as a form of armor

to show up online. From a statement pair of

glasses to bold colors, I was intrigued when

women discussed how they create characters out of their

clothing to cope with impostor feelings.

I'm overjoyed to pick apart what I heard with

an expert in both impostor feelings and styling

ambitious women. This week's episode features

the magnificent Samantha Harman, the style

editor. Samantha

is a trained style and confidence coach and

uses techniques such as neurolinguistic

programming, emotion focused therapy, human

design and hypnosis to help ambitious

women to quit their impostor syndrome. Stop wasting

money on clothes they never wear and feel good in their

style and their body. Samantha

openly shares her own experiences of feeling

like an impostor. She became an editor at

27, which at the time was unheard of

for young working class woman and dressing for

it was a minefield. While Samantha

achieved great things on the outside, she constantly felt like

she was going to get found out. And Samantha tells

us this deep rooted lack of confidence meant she didn't

stand up for herself, didn't go for the opportunities she

deserved, and thought that the only way to be valuable was

to work herself to burn out.

Samantha thought that the answer to her problems was more

clothes because you're always just one new item

away from finally feeling enough.

Now, I'm not afraid to admit that leopard print is

my favourite colour, so it's no surprise. I've been an

avid listener of Samantha's podcast where she tells us that

clothes, are not the only answer. I can't wait to

chew over the research findings with her. So

a warm welcome to, psychologically speaking, to

Samantha, the style editor.

Thank you so much for having me. What an intro.

Wow. I sound fantastic.

I have to admit, I have lifted quite a lot

of that from your wonderful website, and it obviously

shows through that you have an editing background because your

writing skills are amazing. And it was very easy for me to

just say, oh, this is exactly what you do and who you are.

So thank you. You made my life very easy

there.

I'd like to ask you just first of all, a little bit

behind how you actually got into the

styling coaching, because it was quite a departure, I

imagine, to go from working in industry as

an editor. Was it in magazines or newspapers?

Both magazines and newspapers, yeah.

For my sins.

And what was it that actually kind of took

you to going into where you are now, which is a

stylist and coach for ambitious

women?

I have always loved clothes and,

dressing up. And when I was a kid, I would

do stuff like create little outfits for

my dolls and draw outfits and all those kind of

things. But I got the impression

that fashion and style wasn't for someone who

looked like me, because from a very young age, I was

told that my body was wrong

and that I should essentially

spend the rest of my life trying to fix it.

And fashion and style at, that time, as it

has been for many decades, was almost a

way to make women feel bad about

themselves so they'll keep buying more stuff to fix problems they don't

have. So I put

those dreams, I guess, to the

back of my mind. And because I had

an aptitude for writing and

for talking to people love to talk,

I just plowed into

being an editor and I

worked across newspapers, tv, radio, et

cetera, and then settled in newspaper journalism. And

actually, one of the first things that someone said to

me when I came into a newsroom to interview

for a hard news job was,

you're too into fashion to be a serious

journalist. And I've always enjoyed

proving people wrong. So from that point onwards, I was like, I'm

going to show you that I absolutely am serious and

I can do it whilst I'm wearing whatever I

want. And as a

woman leader, in

journalism, I faced a lot

of what would be classed as

misogyny. So when my first

editor promoted me to be

a chief reporter on the news

desk and then I became an editor, he

came back from a meeting and he said to me, sam,

unfortunately, a lot of people are going to have a

problem with this, and it's going to be harder for you because you

are a woman. And I know that is hard to hear, but you're going to have to

suck it up and find ways to deal with

it. And my clothes absolutely became a way to deal with

that. Like, some of the findings that you had

in your research. I did use my clothes

as armor, and in doing that, I

started to get more opportunities, and people

wanted to talk to me about clothes. So women

I met would say to me, can you help me

find something to wear for an interview? Or

I've got this really important meeting tomorrow, what should

I wear? And obviously, at that time, I wasn't doing anything

in style. I just loved dressing up and I loved

helping them. And that was the point. I

realized that there was something to this. And that

style didn't necessarily have to be about making people feel

bad, because that had always been my experience of

it. It could actually be used

to empower people and we can change the

meaning of it.

I think it's fascinating. I mean, it doesn't

surprise me that that misogyny exists. I

think that misogyny exists in many different

organizations, but that kind of,

environment where imagery

is portrayed in print and

with photos, it's just right there in front

of you, isn't it? And it must have been quite

challenging, I suppose. Do you think things

are different now? I mean, this was a while back, but do you think

things have changed at all?

I think we all say that they've

changed, but really, has it changed? I mean, the

rise of social media and what we're looking at now and AI

generated imagery is a huge cause

for concern. And when I was

working in magazines, I went to

these big flagship titles to do internships,

and I thought, I've made it. I

can't believe I've got an internship here. This is the place

that I've coveted my whole life. And

some of the conversations that I heard in those places

were absolutely shocking and terrible and stuff that should

not be repeated. But I think

now, as much as we see more

individualism and more celebration of different

bodies and different types of people,

there is still that traditional,

always wanting to go back to the same

rigid expectation of

what a woman should be.

It's really interesting. As I lead out on this podcast

series, my first episode talks around why

I want us to start using the phrase impostor

phenomenon rather than syndrome, because it's

something we experience. And that experience is

driven by the prejudice and

inequity, and how safe

or unsafe the environments are that we sit in. And what you've

just described there is, I was in an environment that was

misogynistic. It wasn't necessarily a safe place to be.

And there I was, a 27 year old leader

who should have been supported, and

that person who said to you, all people won't like that. It should have

been thinking around, well, how do I remove those barriers rather

than putting that on you? I mean, that's a big thing,

right? and so I think it's really

interesting. I mean, that's a physical space, and yet

we're both working, aren't we, with, entrepreneurs

in online spaces now. And like you said,

that, ah, view of how social media and AI

shapes the spaces that we're in has had a

phenomenal impact on women's self

confidence and, self esteem.

And I just wondered, what kind of things are

clients talking to you about around those

online spaces?

For example, very much in

terms of feeling like an

impostor. So many of the women

who I work with, who run their own businesses,

describe feeling like they're on work

experience, or like at any minute

someone's going to come along and say, no, you can't do this. You don't

know what you're doing. Even though these are women with years

of experience and qualifications,

incredible women. I was working with one recently, and

she was reeling off all the things that she'd done and

all the things that she hoped to do. And, I was

speechless because I just couldn't

believe how accomplished this woman is.

I almost want to shake people and be like, you are

brilliant.

So there's that. But there's also this

idea of rules. So I can't wear

that because I'm a size x, and

people my size can't wear stripes, or I can't wear

those two colors together, because some

way back in the early naughties, there was a

tv show that told me that I couldn't. So we

have all these rules in our head that are stopping us from

truly expressing ourselves in a way that we want

to.

It's really interesting. I was actually thinking this morning. So, I mean,

this gives away my age, but, one of the biggest

tv programs on when I graduated,

or even just before, was Ali

McBeal. And, in Ali McBeal, obviously,

Kalista Flockart's, main character, she's a

protagonist, is dressed head to toe in

Calvin Klein suits. Now, when I

graduated, I was not under a size 16,

so I could not just walk into a shop and, or

I couldn't order a Kelvin Klein suit. But I was

working, as a management consultant and I was a

graduate trainee. So there was a real expectation as

I was sitting in boardrooms with people from prowess

Waterhouse, Coopers and cat Gemini. And there was me,

and I'm from an old kind of mining and pit town

in swaddling coat. so

my experience of growing up, I didn't see people in

suits. My mum didn't wear a suit. She worked,

but she didn't wear a suit. My dad was in service, he worked for the

police force. And I had this

expectation in my head from tv around how I

should look. And for many, many years,

I tried to emulate that style in wearing

suits. As a 40, almost

five year old, I've, become really comfortable in my own skin, but it's

taken so long and I look back now, and one of

the most pleasurable things about listening to your

podcast is I just kind of feel that

it summarizes a massive journey that I've been

on in accepting who I am and just

being comfortable in wearing what I want to wear. And

that's one of the really nice things that you've brought

to the online space for me in your podcast

and that investigative journalism of yours.

I think you've just unlayered or you've

peeled back every single layer of all these

excuses and reasons and thoughts

that we've all had around how we should show

up and how we should feel.

I wanted to kind of share a few of the comments

that came through on the research. Now, this kind of like a

bit like a good editor. I had to cut a lot from my research

paper, which is why we've got a podcast, so that I can

just explore it a little bit more widely. but these

were some of the phrases that my

participants talked about. Now,

again, accomplished women. You're talking there about a

woman you spoke to who'd got so many things going

on. I spoke to a couple of women who

were really at the top of the game and 1520

years worth of experience. So these are not entrepreneurs who were

startup. These are people who've been doing this

successfully for a long time. And the things that

they were saying to me is, I'm very colorful

in real life. I'm bigger than the

room, and I match that with my

clothing. I should be more suited and

booted, though. So this is somebody talking about,

here's an expression of who I am. Here's my big

personality. And I characterize myself as

a big and bold person, but I feel I should be

suited and booted. So I'm

just interested in your hot take on that. I mean,

where's this coming from?

So in the

1970s, there was a book written

called Dress for success women at work

by someone called John T. Milloy. And in that

book, Malloy describes what

women should wear, should be wearing to work. And that

was because at the time, women being in work was

relatively new. And essentially,

what that book says is women should

try and emulate men in terms of

their shoulders, so hence the rise of the shoulder

pad, because then you can stand shoulder to

shoulder with men. But you should

also remember that your main job is to be

attractive to men. So accentuate your waist

and make sure that you are obviously still

feminine. So we still have those

rules from over 50 years ago

in our heads. And what I found,

particularly since the pandemic, is that

workwear dressing is very

confusing. People aren't sure what

smart casual means or business casual means,

and no one is having those kind of

conversations in the workplace. And it's

time for us to create some

new boundaries around what we

can and can't wear to work.

However, the paradox is that there

are studies that do show that

in leadership, people do kind

of look up more to those who are wearing

formal attire.

So it's a

paradox between expressing yourself

and also feeling

that you are formal enough to lead the

conversation. There's a lot of talk online at the moment

around casual wear, and we see it a lot in the shops.

If you walk into the high street right now, most

of the stuff in there is tracksuits, hoodies,

loungewear, et cetera. Great, fine.

But the people online peddling this idea

that you can just wear pajamas and create

a successful business have, a level of privilege that the rest

of us don't know. Mark Zuckerberg can go

to a meeting wearing a hoodie, and that's fine

because he's a billionaire. That doesn't

apply to the rest of us. And

so, as unfortunate as it is,

we do also need to use our clothes

in a way that helps us get into the rooms that

we want to be in.

That is so insightful, and

I can totally relate to that. I mean, I do a role

where I'm often on client sites, and the last twelve

months for me have been fantastic because I've been on client

site a, couple of days a week, and I've been able to dip into

my wardrobe and actually wear my work clothes

and something you said. it was either, ah,

an email or a podcast that you did recently

was talking about getting yourself ready in the

morning for work. And it really resonated

with me because I definitely found during

lockdown, if I was sat and not really dressed and

I'd got my kid with me at home, I was homeschooling and

studying and working. there was something about

that incongruence of not feeling that I was

in the role that I was supposed to be doing at the time,

if I was just wearing a jumper or pair of

shorts. and so for today, for example,

I've done my hair, I've put a bit of makeup on, I've put a nice

jumper on that I like the color of. And that, for me,

was getting myself ready to be professional and to sit and have a

good old chat with you. and there has to be

that middle ground, doesn't there?

Does, yeah, because unfortunately, we don't all have the

privilege of being a Mark

Zuckerberg. But

to your point about getting dressed in the morning.

Yeah. There's something called in clothes cognition. That's what

the psychologists call

it, whereby we act to the role

of our clothes. So they did a study using

lab coats. They've done this study a few times where

participants are given the same lab coat and they're told,

this is a doctor's lab coat or this is a

painter's smock. And they found that those who were wearing what they

thought was the doctor's lab coat performed much

better in tests than those who thought they were wearing a

painter's smock. So

subconsciously, we have

ideas attached to items of clothing.

And so if we wear something that we have an idea

attached to it, that is, this is what someone

productive wears, we will

behave in a more productive way.

We've been putting our pajamas on since before we

can remember. our parents would take us out of, our going out clothes

and put us in our pajamas to go to bed. So the idea that we have

in our head is pajamas equal rest. And

so when we wear our pajamas all day to

work, yeah, sure, it feels like a novelty, but

it's confusing our brain, because our brain is

like, okay, am I resting now? Am I

meant to be working? What am I supposed to do?

Imagine there's something also quite comforting and feels

quite safe about wearing your pejs if you're working.

And especially during that lockdown period. And this is where I did

my research, was just post lockdown.

We talked about zoom fatigue and being tired.

So, I wonder what impact has being a little

bit more casual had on our whole psyche

and where we're going.

And it's interesting you mentioned that study as well,

and the enclosed cognition, because the studies

that we have, and again, it feels as

if it really talks to

the sexism and inequity that exist in

psychology as well, because a lot of research

will want to look at, well, how do men and women fare when they

wear different things? And it exposes some of

those prejudices and, the inequity that we

see and the one that I'm always fascinated

by is one that was a swimwear,

study. So they had, a group of participants,

and I think they were students as well. So always a bit of

caution, because it's not representative of a bigger age

group. but they had them try on swimwear

or a jumper in a changing room with a

mirror, so that person was unable to do their own

self evaluation. And then afterwards they had them

sit a maths test. and, the women were

impacted by the maths test, that if they'd worn the

swimwear, they did worse in the

maths test than the men. The men were more consistent across

the board. And again, I think that

also speaks to the inequity and

the prejudice. And I suppose the fact that there's

privilege, isn't there, for some people rather than others.

Yeah, definitely. And I think

women's bodies are judged in a different way

to men. I mean, there's

the body shape as fruit and kitchen

utensils thing that style does. You're

an apple, you're a violin, you're a brick. It's

just men don't get

the same treatment as women in that way. They're not

told constantly to wear stuff that flatters them. and by

flattery, what we mean is making your

shape look more like an hourglass, which is

what men find apparently more

attractive. That's what it's about. So

it's really fascinating

to look at that study and,

to think about.

Where those rules and norms have

come from.

Where they've come from.

Yeah, it's interesting. There's another psychologist,

called Amy Cuddy. Amy's had a

horrific time in the psychological community

because a lot of her scientific research has been

scrutinized. And, in psychology, we have

this huge kind of replication crisis

happening. And what that means is a lot of studies that were done

and published and, published,

because probably the people who've published it have been given

the platform to publish it. Have, been found

to not be producing the results when they've been

replicated. So a lot of this been around,

priming studies and priming effects and marketing,

et cetera. But Amy Cuddy's research

was really scrutinised. And her key piece

is that idea that if you stand

tall, you can have this power pose. And that

power pose will make us more confident. So the jury

is really out on the efficacy of what she's

proposing there. But at the heart

of this, really, I think some of the intention behind that

research was confidence is more

than what we wear and who we are. It's

so interlinked with lots of other things, and

that includes cognition. The clothes we wear.

Clothes are doing a number of jobs for us. They're

literally protecting us from rain and

heat. they're also doing things like

they're kind of an extension of our self expression.

So it's a way for us to communicate with other

people. And my psychology research really

kind of sat on that social identity theory, which is

saying everything we do is around where we

sit in groups. So are you part of the group that I'm

in? How do I know that you're like me? And the fact that

we are more drawn to people who are like us. So if I wear bold

colors and you wear bold colors, I go, well, that person's like me. I can get

on with them. but I think it's interesting that when we

have got research out there, and especially when

women put research out there, how scrutinised that

is. Yet this guy who wrote this book on how

we should dress, I mean, did he come under the same amount of

pressure as Amy Cuddy? Probably not.

Yeah. And it's over 50 years later, and, we're

still actually a lot of

workwear. Workwear codes that

we see are based on his book from over

50 years ago. You're right. It

doesn't kind of have the same level of scrutiny.

And even conversations that I have around

clothes come under so much scrutiny,

too. I mean, I've been posting

every day on LinkedIn about this stuff and the psychology

behind why wear what we wear. And at,

first, I had so much backlash

to it. And it's just very interesting

how, I think there is something

to do with the fact we see it as frivolous and something

silly and actually superficial is a word that

someone used when every day we all

get dressed. And actually, on average, we spend 11

minutes a day thinking about what we

supposed to wear, which

is, about two days a year of

our lives. So to

call it kind of superficial is to

miss the point. And

women are socialized in a way that

makes them have to think about this stuff way more than it

does men.

It is strange. I mean, I was looking

at some of the very early kind of

texts on the, psychology of

clothing. And, it wasn't necessarily the book that

was written. Which is called psychology of clothes. but a

review of it. And this is from 1930. So there's a

professor called professor flugal. And I've not read his work

extensively. So, I'm

not going to go into detail. But basically he writes a book.

He's a psychoanalyst. I think you'd actually probably really enjoy his

work. From that psychoanalytical perspective, Samantha.

But he did, a piece which was talking

about people's types of clothing and wearing, et

cetera. And he was talking about differences in sexes between

male and female. And this is the 1930s,

remember? So he's talking about the fact that men

have, by and large, discarded, the need

to be narcissistic and showy with their

clothes. and somebody is reviewing his

book. And they're saying, that their summary is. We are

ashamed of the working of our minds. As we are the

contours of our bodies. And I just thought,

wow. I mean, that statement is as

relevant today as it was back in the

1930s. But when you break that

down, women are ashamed of the workings of their minds.

As much as the contours of their bodies. Would

really summarize those statements that

come out around impostor phenomenon for me, and

especially in the entrepreneurial community. Because

women are a little bit embarrassed to admit that,

they have to think about clothing so much. That they have to

use it as armor. and they're just as

ashamed of that as they are those

negative feelings. And that whirlwind.

That impostor kind of spins up for people.

I know that you work very,

very closely with people who have those impostor

experiences. And, in terms of that, I'm

ashamed of the working of my mind. As much as the contours

of my body. Is that something that comes through with the impostor

work that you do with women?

Very much so often

I will have clients who will never talk about working with

me. Actually, entrepreneurs are more likely to talk about

working with me. Than those who work in corporate environments.

Because even though in corporate

environments, women are very much judged on what they wear.

It's a conversation that is taboo.

M which, when it's something that can help

people do better at their job, I find

fascinating. But I

think even it's a barrier to getting help, because our

wardrobes become a physical manifestation of

what's in our mind. We think that our wardrobes

are just a collection of clothes, actually. They are

ideas about who we want to be, ideas of

what we aren't, things that we want to achieve, things that we

haven't achieved. Memories, shame, guilt, all of that

stuff wrapped up in a

wooden box in our bedroom.

And sometimes the shame and guilt can

be a barrier to people even

reaching out for help. And what they will do instead

is think, well, I'll actually just go and spend

500 pounds on new clothes because that will

make it better. But because they aren't

addressing the psychological reasons behind

why their wardrobe has become what it becomes.

In six months time, they're going to be standing in front

of this overstuffed wardrobe again, thinking, I've

got nothing to wear.

And I think that really comes through in the

research, especially in that entrepreneurial community,

because what I was able to see through

the deep interviews that I did was really

how the emotions that people experience and

how they process those, really express

then through that wardrobe choice, or express through

how people think they're perceived. So that

identity, I had people who, through ways

of coping, and as a psychologist, coping is a

good thing, right. It can be really helpful.

but it's helpful when we use it in short term and

small ways, and it can be less helpful when it becomes

maladaptive. And almost like on a sliding

scale, I could probably put my participants

into different groups where there are those that are using

clothes in quite a positive and, almost a

rebellious way to say, well, who does she think

she is? Well, I'm this, and here's who I am. And I'm not afraid

to wear these colors and be this person.

But at the other end of the scale is this person going, I will

be bold and I will be that, because I'm really frightened that people will

discover I'm a fraud or I'm not this person.

And I'm really interested, actually, because what

we see in those online spaces and in social

media could be that two different people.

So when you see an image of somebody who looks bold and

confident, are we seeing

or who sits behind that? that's the bit of the

psychologist that I'm interested in. And what you're saying,

there is evidence that women don't want to

talk about which one they are.

There's a shame, but perhaps there's a stigma to if

I admit that I'm not confident, then that

means I can't be an entrepreneur. And that

theme was so prevalent through the research

that women felt that entrepreneurialism came

with being confident. and

yet there were people lining up to talk to me about the fact

that they didn't feel confident, and yet they were hugely

successful. So that's a paradox as

well. you don't have to be

confident to be a successful entrepreneur, but it probably

helps.

That's so interesting.

That's fascinating. Yeah. Ah,

I get that. And I

often have people say to me, oh,

you're just so confident. I couldn't do

that. You just got it. You're just confident.

Not realizing that there's a whole story

behind, that. And actually, with

the online space for entrepreneurs, I think there's a bit

of a disconnect and a lack of self

integrity. When we show up online as one thing and

then behind the screen we know we're being something

else. And I will often say to people when I meet

them at events, why did you wear what you've wore today?

And they'll say, oh, because I knew you were going to be here. I went to

an event recently and it was a room full of women

wearing lovely outfits. And all

of them said that they'd put special effort in because they knew

that I was going to be there. But what I'm really

interested in is not what they're wearing in front of everyone else,

it's what they're wearing when they're at home, on their own, when

no one else sees them, because that's actually

what they're telling themselves that they are. So if

they're portraying online, I'm this confident,

bold, colorful person, and then behind the

scenes, they're not dressing that way for

themselves. They have a lack of self

integrity. And that then plays into why they feel like an

impostor. because

that is what they know to be the truth.

A couple of comments on that. I've got a couple of questions for you.

I mean, one, we're just pointing out here that

incongruence again, which is if you are

one thing in one space and another thing in another space, then it's going

to lead to a feeling of disconnection and not

quite that you feel who you are. But my question to you

is, how does that make you feel as a coach?

I mean, your job is you want to help lift people up,

but knowing that people are dressing up to

serve you, and how does that

land?

It makes me feel like there's a lot more work to do in terms

of what we think of when we think of a

stylist. And, I've had the comment quite a few times

before of, you don't look like a stylist

in a good way, because people's perception is that

a stylist is someone who is stick

thin, very judgmental, tells them what they

can and can't wear, throws out everything in their

wardrobe, says, no, this is disgusting. You don't know what you're

doing. And I've had those experiences

myself with stylists, and so what

I'm doing is something completely

different. So I do understand where that stereotype

comes from and why people would perhaps feel the

need to dress up and portray something else.

But I think that's why I share so much

of my actual journey, so

they see that none of that matters

to me, and I

actually understand them because that was the

situation that I have also been

in.

What kind of, advice do you

give to people in that initial kind of, I

suppose, context of somebody reaching out for the first

time to say, I need help with my wardrobe,

and I imagine at the back of their

head is kind of those thoughts that probably I would have as

well, which is maybe I need to learn the rules on how to dress. Maybe

I just need to know some tricks. and when I've got that

nailed, I'll be okay. how are

you talking people through that initial

conversation?

I think if those rules

worked, because they are free, available to

anyone on the Internet, there would be no need

for anyone to reach out to me

because they would already have implemented those

rules. But clearly something

isn't working there.

So what I'll do is have a conversation with them about

why they feel the way they

feel. And often I'll ask them questions about their

wardrobes that they haven't ever asked before or

been asked before.

What are you wearing today? Why? On a scale

of one to ten, with one being the lowest of the

low and ten being, I feel

like Beyonce, where are you every

day? And often people will

not pretend, but they will almost

fool themselves, I guess, to thinking

that they feel better than they do or that they don't

have as much stuff as they do, or that they're wearing more

of their stuff than they are. So

I ask them questions that get

them to think, and I'm not leading them in any way. I'm

just asking them. And sometimes

if they reach out to me, we will just have a

conversation. And I know that that's helpful enough for them and

they'll go away, they'll apply some of the stuff.

They may come back in a month or two months or

a year, but then other times I

will see that there is stuff that I can help them do, and then I'll

say, why don't we work together on this?

And I love the fact, I mean, it really comes through in your podcast.

And your newsletters are amazing. I like

it when your emails drop because they're always interesting

and there's always a little nugget of something in there. but

I really like the way that you're trying

to get to what's happening with somebody in their

head, so you're not focused on their contours,

you're focused on what's going on in that head and how can

we unravel it. And I suppose that's where the

journalist comes out. And that kind of

razor Sharp mix

of journalist,

psychologist and, also a stylist

all coming together just makes it a dream

kind of way to tackle some of

those impostor feelings, I imagine.

I hope so. I am a dream. You're

right. I hope so.

Because, nothing kind

of breaks my heart more than someone

enlisting the help of a stylist. The stylist telling

them, you're an apple shape, only wear these clothes,

do this, do that. Here's a list of things that you need to have in your

wardrobe, and then leaving and then not

understanding all of the

psychology behind that. I can give you a

list of clothes that you should be wearing,

but if you have unhealed trauma or you have

things inside you that are going to stop you from wearing those clothes,

I haven't helped you. I've just made the situation worse.

m and that upsets me.

Question I've got for you, is

there's a whole narrative around whether we should or

should not comment on people's appearance. And I think this

is, it comes down to commenting on women's

appearance. And, I've been really

fortunate, I suppose, for the last year or so, to

be working with a group of people where

we're quite excited by seeing what each other's wearing.

And it's that kind of environment, and it feels quite supportive.

And, it's not the only thing that we notice about each other, but

certainly I've got a shocking pair of pink shoes that

everyone comments on, and I love wearing them, and I love it when

people comment on them. And that says something about me as

well. But do

you have an opinion on this narrative of we shouldn't comment

on how people look.

It's interesting because people have

always been dressing as performance.

There are, studies

and research that shows that as far back

as 2600 bc,

people were dying their clothes. And

archaeologists found shell beads

from 80,000 years

ago.

Wow.

that people were, you know, they were using it to

dress. So we use it to assimilate,

like you said, and we use it

as performance. And there's a reason

why our favorite shows on Netflix have

costume designers, because it's

making us more.

Giving us more belief in that person, in that role. An

actor can be a great actor, but if they turn up to

play Henry Vi and they're wearing their old t shirt and

jeans, we, as the audience, have to do more

work.

So, yeah, I think that

it's, again, kind of a paradox, because

is there a yes or no? And sometimes I think that there

is gray error with things. And it's become very

popular to be polarized on

one side or the other of various different debates

and ideas,

but I don't have one. I know that I

sometimes dress in a way

that allows people to talk to me. And I've had

clients through what I'm wearing. I have people

that will come up to me and say,

I haven't ever spoken to you before, but I saw you at this

event a year ago, and you were wearing this thing, and I

remember it. So we can use

our clothes as a way to be remembered. And in an

online space,

ah, when attention is so hard to get,

that is a way of stopping people

scrolling and looking at you and assessing

if you are someone that they assimilate

to.

Yeah. And I have a thought on this. Ah, know, for

me, there feels like there have to be a set of circumstances

that are in place to enable us to be able to

comment on how somebody looks. And, I think if you're

in a space that is psychologically safe,

and I spoke to, Christina and Laura in a previous episode

about this. if you're in a space where

your abilities and skills are recognized and

acknowledged in their own right,

then I think we create space to

enjoy how we can

creatively use appearance and look and

colors and different fabrics, et

cetera. And there's a real richness in our world, isn't there, in our

visual world, on how we use all of these

things. but it feels to me like you have to do

the work. You got to do the work as an organization or

in an industry to be able to have that affordance to be able

to say, oh, wow, that person always looks amazing.

It's like, they look amazing, but also they are top of

the game, or they do this or they have these amazing

skills. So I feel like there's a lot of work to be done

there. And similarly, as a psychologist, I

suppose I'm less interested in the extremes, but

that, kind of gray area in between. And why do we think

that? And why is it popular now to

not want to tell people that, wow, really

liked what you were wearing, and where did you get that from? It was

really exciting. It's always been such a

natural part of our conversation.

Yeah. It's a way of creating

conversation with people through

what we wear. And, studies actually

show that when leaders

wear something that is a little bit different, so maybe a

colorful sock or a colorful tie or an

accessory, they are perceived as being

more, competent

than other people at their same level.

I wonder if some of that is around. It's

giving a visual cue for that person to stand out in the

memory. And there's certain things that we hook onto, isn't, there?

So when you talk about that closed cognition,

it can happen in many different ways in terms of how

we, think about somebody's

competence in confidence and their

leadership ability. But I wonder if it also

just markers that. It just means that we remember more. And when

you remember more, then you can associate more kind of

thoughts with it. Ah, very interesting.

I'm going to wrap up a little bit. And

it was really interesting that, when I

looked at some of the research that sat around

clothing, I mean, obviously,

clothing has been. And fashion

go hand in hand, and the fashion world

is so geared towards the female

form. And, when you look at that, Professor

Flugel's book from the 1930s, he's talking about the

fact that men, have kind of

moved into more kind of standardized clothing,

and women were the people to be showcasing a bit like

peacocks and putting all of their colors

out there. And that was seen as narcissistic behavior.

And I think over the years, there's been all sorts of

things that clothes kind of, emulate what's happening

in our social lives. So the fact that in

the 80s, women had entered the workplace,

a workplace that had never been designed for them.

And here they were trying to stand shoulder to shoulder with

men and be like men with, their physical

shoulder pads, which you described so well.

And, yet we're in a space now where we're almost

going, but we don't have to be like men and we don't

have to be this and we don't have to fit these rules, and

we can be rebellious. And I really like that

idea that, flugel had in his book,

actually way back when, which was, there are rebellious

dresses. And I just wonder if we've come full

circle a little bit and it's taken the fact that we've had

to expose some of the misogyny and, also the

inequity to be able to kind of go.

Clothing can work for us in a very powerful way if

we let it.

Yeah. And, it's not superficial because it's

something that is part of

our dna.

Ah.

And our identity. For example, a

lot of people describe themselves as a magpie, so they'll say, oh, I'm just

drawn to sparkly things. Actually,

that scientist belief is part of our

evolution, because back in the day, our

ancestors were primed to look for water sources. And,

because water reflects light, we

wanted water. So now when we see something

shiny, we want it, we want to

wear it. So

we're in this time where

clothing is seen as

something superficial to care

about, but at the same time, it's part of

our identity and ultimately it's part of our

legacy. I mean, we all think of

a celebrity or a famous person and

there'll be a piece of clothing that we identify with

them. And m the same with relatives.

If someone that we care about passes

away, we'll likely keep an item of their clothing because

it reminds us of them.

It seems to me that, online spaces and getting

dressed up have something really in common

for us. They're both an extension and an

expression of ourself. And my

research really kind of it

said what online spaces enable to do is they give us

digital affordances, and those affordances allow that

self expression. And, I think both things do similar

things for us. Getting dressed up, being in online

spaces as, entrepreneurs or women

entrepreneurs, it gives us those affordances

in ways that perhaps being in a boardroom or in a

physical office might not have done. And that

was the really kind of interesting and intriguing

thing for me, was just how

women had found innovative ways to use the way

that they dress, not just to protect.

So thinking about that scale again, women who were just

really going for it and going, yeah, this is me.

And, why shouldn't I? And I'm embracing it and I feel

comfy in it. but those women appeared in the research

to be at home with those feelings and had dealt with some of

those uncomfortable feelings. If

people want to know more about this

emotion based approach to coaching and, how you

fuse all of your magic together, where can they

reach you and how can they listen to you?

You can find me at,

thestyleeditor. Co. UK.

You can listen to the nothing

to wear podcast, or you can find me on

Instagram or LinkedIn. I'm everywhere.

I'm always open for a conversation about this stuff.

I do love the fact that you're everywhere, and I am just so

thrilled that you agreed to come onto my podcast today. It's

been a blast chatting with you and, I know I'll be

looking forward to your next LinkedIn post or

Instagram, or even your podcast because you are just

so interesting with your ideas and I know that you really

deeply research everything that you do. So thank

you so much.

Thank you.

That's it for today.

I hope you learned something new, or.

Perhaps I've given you a new way to think about what you

experience. A quick reminder that

rating and reviewing all the podcasts you love really does

help other people find them, which is especially

appreciated by independent podcasters. For

more psychological insights, you'll find all the ways you can connect

with me in the show notes.

Thanks for listening to psychologically speaking with me,

Leila Ange bye for now.