Hello, and welcome to this bonus episode of America A History Recorded straight after our recently published episode.

Who was Frances Perkins?

I'm joined now by the guest from that episode, Rebecca Brenner Graham, to discuss this a little bit more.

Rebecca, thank you so much for hanging on.

Thank you, Liam.

It was really great to get you on the podcast.

And as you can tell, my voice is now getting croaky, so I'm not going to keep you around for too much longer.

Please.

But there was a couple of things I just didn't feel like we had enough time to touch on.

In the main episode, we kind of ended on this idea about her legacy and how she could be remembered.

But why is it that you think that Frances Perkins is not remembered?

Maybe as much as she should be.

She started that process.

She had to navigate complicated gender politics.

Right.

And a lot of times it was to her advantage to stay out of the spotlight as much as she could in such a prominent position.

She did not like having her photo taken.

She sometimes asked the press not to cover something she was doing if there would be backlash if more people knew about it.

And then when the Roosevelt administration ended, she published a memoir about Franklin D. Roosevelt, where she attributed many of her successes to him.

That was what she saw as her role.

An example in my book is that she credits extending the visas after Kristallnacht to FDR without mentioning that she had suggested that pretty much five years earlier.

And that's okay.

That's okay for her.

She didn't care about being remembered for those details.

But then the predominantly male journalists who wrote the first drafts of History also did not center her.

So then she's gradually forgotten by most Americans throughout the 20th century.

There are some exceptions.

In 1980, for the Centennial of her birth, President Jimmy Carter named the Department of Labor Building the Frances Perkins Department of Labor Building.

As of our recording on April 24, 2025, it is still called the Frances Perkins Department of Labor Building.

I don't know how long that will last.

In 1980, there was also a postage stamp with her face on it.

In 1987, the movie Dirty Dancing had a character named Baby whose real name was, quote, Francis, after the first woman in the Cabinet, end quote.

But by that point, she's sort of what I call a quirky, fun fact where someone might be able to answer in trivia that the first woman Cabinet secretary was Frances Perkins, but they might not know about her work in Hull House, her efforts after the Triangle factory fire, and that she was really central behind landmark New Deal Legislation.

I mean, Senator Robert Wagner's personal secretary was quoted to say that without Frances Perkins, FDR never would have gone for the Social Security Act.

So she was really a pinnacle behind these things.

And not until 2009, with the founding of the Francis Perkins center and the publication of the Woman behind the New Deal by Kirsten downey, not until 2009 did more people start learning about Frances Perkins.

Yeah, and it kind of brings me on to my, my next point, which is that when we consider the, the landscape today and so Trump 2.0 and some of the things that he's doing, and there's, I mean, things seem to change by the day, and new executive orders are being signed every minute.

How do, how do you think a figure like Frances Perkins will be?

I guess I have a two pronged question.

The first is how do you think her legacy will, will be maintained with such a, you know, sort of trumpy agenda in place at the moment?

And secondly, if Frances Perkins was around today, would she be just the kind of figure that the Democrats actually need to just sort of of combat some of this stuff?

As far as the memory of Frances Perkins goes, her legacy is not just being maintained.

She is a moral icon on the rise.

In many ways, she is one of the antitheses to the current moments.

The Frances Perkins center has done a lot of work to get her memory and story out there, including becoming a national monument, thanks to President Bide in December 2024.

Does that answer the first part of your question?

Before we move on to the second part, there are two ways that I think that Frances Perkins might offer something to us today.

One is that both individual action and collective action were important to her in my book.

She cannot ultimately prevail against the structures stacked against the refugees, but she is an individual trying to do the right thing who is able to save individual lives.

And to those individual people, that meant saving their whole world.

And she also believed in collective action.

The whole New Deal was about entrenching the government into the economy and society because we need those structures, not just individual benevolence, which I think it's fair to say that was Herbert Hoover's strategy to fight the Great Depression before the Roosevelt administration was individual benevolence.

So thing one is that delicate interplay between individual and collective action.

Thing two is that no one can do everything.

Frances Perkins did not single handedly swoop in and save the refugees.

She couldn't save most people and the people that she was able to save.

She worked with other people to do that.

So no one person can do everything.

You need people like Frances Perkins, who is talented at working creatively within the system, at taking ideas and social movements that had built for a century and helping to write them into law.

You also need people like Cecilia Rosofsky, who is an activist and she helps to raise money.

You need the philanthropists who raise money.

You need a journalist like Dorothy Thompson who's spreading the word about what's happening.

And nobody can do it alone.

Yeah, yeah.

It's interesting.

And you're right.

I think it takes a whole system and a whole infrastructure of people and the mechanics of all of that coming together at the right time to enact the sort of change and the sort of action that happened.

That's good food for thought.

Yeah, I think something that we could really take on board at the moment when we sort of consider what's happening in your part of the world.

But Rebecca, before I let you go, I'd really love to know what you're working on at the moment and what we can look forward to.

Between my manuscript completion and my book's publication, I actually switched jobs.

So I used to be a full time high school history teacher and now, as you mentioned at the beginning of our recording, I'm a postdoc at Brown University.

I am working full time on a project called Brown 2026, which is Brown's efforts to commemorate the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence while exploring the relationship between the university and democracy today in a wide range of ways.

As part of my job, I will be teaching a new class that I developed for the fall called the American Revolution in Popular Culture.

Actually, what's it called?

Yeah, it's called the American Revolution in Popular Culture.

And sorry if I almost forget the name of my own class, but I'm also currently writing a book on that same topic, specifically Historical Memory of the American Revolution from a female millennial perspective from the bicentennial through the semi quincentennial, which is the 2026 anniversary.

That sounds great.

We do not cover the American Revolution enough on this podcast, so you're a fool for telling me that because I'll definitely be trying to get you back on the podcast.

Stay tuned.

And I always enjoy your Popular Culture episodes.

Well, thank you very much.

Yeah, they are a lot of fun, but we're going to wrap this up here.

Rebecca, thank you so much for joining me for this and also for the main episode.

And anyone listening, if you haven't already, you can listen to the full thing right now on the feed.

It's just a couple of episodes below this one.

Additionally, the link to your book, Rebecca and everything that we've discussed will be in the show notes.

And if you like what you hear, you can support the show from as little as one simple dollar.

Again, all the info in the show notes.

So thank you so much for listening and goodbye.