00:00 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

I was a wedding photographer and I loved being a wedding photographer. Let me be clear about that, because I got to be the center of attention. What people don't understand about the wedding industry, which I'll give you a little insider secret because I've been gone from it for so long. In this order, the three most important people on that day are the bride, the photographer, the bride's mom. That's it. Like your number two like is true, and so I've learned how to be the center of attention and also be a fly on the wall at the same time, but also get the shot.

00:35 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

This is the Photo Business Help podcast, a resource for photographers of all levels, from brand new to burnt out, who believe that business growth starts with personal growth. I'm your host, natalie Jennings. I created Jennings Photo back in 2010 and have been happily full time since, but not without some mistakes along the way. Those lessons, plus what's really helped me thrive financially and personally, are what I want to share with you so you can grow with your photo business too. You'll also hear stories from other photographers and industry folks, as well as my favorite ways to be more mindful and happier on this journey.

01:15

I had the opportunity to share a stage with Michael at podcast movement this year. It was my first time speaking at podcast movement and I got to know Michael a little bit better and was really interested in the work that he does helping people transform their trauma. But even more fascinating is the fact that he, prior to doing this, was a multiple six figure wedding photographer and he knows this industry. And one of the things that we really connected on was that folks often hit blocks in their life, problems just hitting a wall, and I know, working with many of you, that you have beautiful photos, you have an awesome website, you're taking all the classes, all the coaching, all the courses, and you still just feel stuck. You feel like you're not breaking through to your goals. You feel like you're just not getting it. And that is what this podcast is all about. We cover all of this and what really is at the core of this block for people. You're going to want to listen to this whole thing. Michael is an amazing speaker and we cover a ton of stuff. It builds momentum, so stay tuned until the end and enjoy.

02:26

Yeah, so you started in the photo industry, probably a few years before. I did like 2008, 2009, 10-ish.

02:32 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, I think. I mean I've always been a photographer, which is an interesting thing to say and a lot of people say that, but it's bullshit. I would get in trouble at five, six, seven years old for banging out Polaroids on my grandma's Polaroid camera and like taking pictures of ashtrays and birds and the cat she had, and like the TV and what was on the TV, and then, like she would always be taken naps. I take a picture of her taking a nap, of my brother, as if, like, I'd go outside and take a picture of the car tire with, like, the brakes and all these things.

03:05

And you know, polaroids they're still like $8,000 a shot, you know, and so like it was just going to say like you know, and so back then I would get in trouble constantly and we had this thing that we did my, for whatever reason, photography was like my grandma's thing and we were dirt poor, like, let's be clear, so you know, photography is not a cheap hobby. But she had these old sewing machine 10s. I never gonna talk about. This is great, I love this. Never gonna talk about this. She had these old sewing machine 10s and we had five or six of them and there were tens of thousands of printed photos and these things, and I mean ranging back from the early 50s all the way up until, you know, when I first started messing with this stuff in the late 80s, and every Friday night we would go and drop off film at, like, the Target or Kmart it was the thing of the Kmart, at the Kmart and we buy new film and she'd give me, like all this time to just play with it, because she was tired of me using up her Polaroids all the time. So, eight years old, I'm like using this camera and we have this kind of routine because my grandma raised me. My mom was a drug addict and alcoholic, my stepdad was super abusive, and so anytime I could get to be with my grandma was like heaven sent, even though she was racist and I'm biracial and that's really weird, but that was a thing that we had together. And when I went to only one class trip, all of school, like all 18 years of school we went to Washington DC when I was in fifth grade and she bought me a Canon AE one and three packs of film and she told me it was like 2,800 ISO, like black and white and then like a 400 color, and she's like, if you use all this, you don't have money to get more. Like I think I had $20 literally for a week in Washington DC and by the end of the trip I had an entire roll and a half left.

05:12

I had been very cautious about every photo that I had taken and that's like where it began for me and I just always had a camera in my hand up until high school. And then I was way more interested in girls, in sports, and then I got accepted to a now closed New York Art Institute to go do photography out there, a fine art degree, which thank God that school closed because I'd be, you know, 80 grand in debt for no reason. And so, by happenstance, because I'm from the hood, we don't have any money. I couldn't get anybody to co-sign a loan for the $20,000 a year to attend this out-of-state school, and so I moved to New York City with 500 bucks in my pocket and I'm like I'm going to make this work. It did not work, I assure you, and so I find myself back in Indiana, indianapolis.

06:06

I'm 18. I haven't graduated high school. I got kicked out. I have no money, my grandma's in a coma, my mom's in jail and then in rehab, and then, you know, I'm just kind of like on my own dealing with my 17 year old brother, and so I was like I got to get a job, like I don't have a choice, and so I end up getting a job. I got into leadership super young, and so I'm running a Wendy's, being a general manager and training, making 36 grand a year in 2005, which is like a million dollars. Back then. Like I was living on my own, I had a car, I had my own cell phone and like having your own cell phone in 2005 was like a thing.

06:47 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

That's a big deal. I was a high school teacher. My first contract in 2009 was for $33,000.

06:53 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, that's crazy. Like back then that was good money and now if you make that, I don't know how you survive. And so I kept working at this job. I hated it but I was learning so many skills and I knew then skills had utility and I wanted to make 100 grand a year and making it legally was very, very important Because, you know, I'd sold drugs.

07:15

I'd got expelled from high school for selling drugs and fighting and absenteeism and all that stuff. I got family in prison for life literary to the staff, family members who've been in prison for 30 years, some for my whole life. I've been in handcuffs so many times I literally have lost count and my three childhood best friends have been murdered. And so, like I knew the path I was going and I wanted to make this money but like fast food wasn't going to get me there, I ended up landing a job with a Fortune 10 company and I made my first 100,000 at 21 years old, which is insane, like nobody does that. And by the time I was 25, I'd made a million dollars working in cells for this Fortune 10 company and it's like 960 grand. But you know close enough. And so you know.

08:04

But I destroyed my life and I was, you know, 350 pounds, smoking two packs a day, drinking myself to sleep, partying all the time. Car got repowed In the midst of this. I'm starting my photography business Like this is such a dumb thing to do, but I hated wearing fucking khakis to work every day. You know what I'm saying. I was like I'm sacrificing part of who I am for money and like, as creatives like I'm a creative, I literally have been a photographer my whole life and as creatives, we want to go and be creative. We want to go do our thing and we want to do it on our terms.

08:41

And to do it on my terms meant that I had to go and build this business but I hadn't touched a camera at that point in probably six years. Like I was so hurt from no loans, nobody to co-sign. This dream that I've had for years is like gone. And I was like fuck this. And one night or one day this Saturday morning, an ad came in the mail for this place called Robert's Camera downtown Indianapolis, and it was like buy a kit. It was like Nikon D2000 with a kit lens for like 600 or 700 bucks or something like that. And I was like you know what? I got money, fuck it, I'm gonna go buy this, I go and buy it and I just like every picture is awful, like I don't understand anything, I don't remember anything, I don't know how to get exposures right, the whole nine.

09:38 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

I thought for a second not to interrupt you, but I thought for a second you were gonna say something like and then it all came back to me Fuck no, it was horrible and it was very defeating too, but I was like I'm not stopping, and it was.

09:52 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

I wanted to do something that made me feel good and being a photographer always made me feel good and so I just I went after it and I just started learning. And the next thing, you know, I'm learning from dudes like Zach Arias and I'm spending time with him in New York City. I'm learning from Chase Jarvis, I'm on Creative Live with Sal Simcata, I'm spending time with Sue and Stripling and Kelby, and, like you know, I can name all these people. And it was like, and slowly and I'm sure we'll get into this I built a business from like, really literally making $4 an hour Like when I did the math making $4 an hour to making 15 grand on a Saturday and being voted one of the number one photographers in Indianapolis, being on the cover of magazines, being published more times than I can count, teaching people you know, winning awards, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

10:45 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

Well, you said a couple of really important things. The first one always sticks with me when people say it, because it's something I talk about a lot. But you wanted to do something that made you feel good and I. One of the first things I asked people is like how does this make you feel? You know, like, how do you feel when you're doing this? Do you hate it? Or do you think you want to be a photographer but you don't actually enjoy it? Or do you actually really like it?

11:04

And I think that in anything goes a really really long way. So I appreciate you saying that. But the other thing, when it comes to business stuff that is probably even as important, if not more, is like I did the math, I was making $4 an hour, and I can't tell you how many people don't do the math. So they're hustling and hustling and hustling and they might be really fantastic photographers, but doing the math to figure out what that rate is is not part of what's happened for them. And when they do the math, they're like, oh shit, it's, I'm not making any money. So both of those things I really appreciate it.

11:38 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, and it's a wake up call because I had made all this money with this Fortune 10 company. I had left that career to go start this business. I started the business at 24, but by 25 and a half, even amidst all the chaos of my life, I was like I'm going all in, because I'm like fuck it, what's the worst, that's gonna happen, I'll just go back to this company or I'll go do whatever. And at first I had a little bit of savings but slowly it disappeared and the next thing, you know, I'm banging credit cards to survive. And then I'm like literally borrowing money from my girlfriend who lives with me to pay our rent. But it's like every single part of it was evolution, where it was like I'll do anything to get paid, like, and I meant it. Like I photographed the family Thanksgiving dinner one time and they paid me a hundred bucks and I was like I don't give a fuck, I have no money, my electricity is about to get turned off.

12:36

And then I got studious about the craft and I don't mean the craft of photography. Taking pictures is very easy, like it really is. Like, once you learn and you understand composition and posing, and you learn and you understand you know how to really do your reciprocals for lighting and you stop saying you're a natural light photographer and you like learn how to fucking do that. Like that's just easy. The hard part is, like, how do I run the business?

13:03

Absolutely, I was a wedding photographer and I loved being a wedding photographer. Let me be clear about that because, like I got to be the center of attention. What people don't understand about the wedding industry which I'll give you a little insider secret because I've been gone from it for so long In this order, the three most important people on that day are the bride, the photographer, the bride's mom, that's it. Like your number two is true. And so I learned how to be the center of attention and like also be a fly on the wall at the same time, but also like get the shot right and my team was there. Like, we learned how to do all those things and I grew. Like my business started in the era of here's your disc right.

13:46 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

Yeah.

13:46 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

I know For those people who don't know this world photographers used to be like. Here's a disc of all your pictures.

13:53 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

I just interviewed someone who started at the same time, around the same time as you and I, and we had the same conversation. Like I used to give CDs to people Like in a cool package.

14:06 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, exactly. So it's not that it's stupid, but it wasn't high end, right, and so I wasn't pricing myself high end and I ended up taking my last thousand dollars. Literally, I'm completely broke. But I got accepted to be on Creative Live with Sal Senkata and he was teaching the business foundations of wedding photography and it's just because, like I was, honestly, I was just annoying and I knew Chase and I was like Chase put me on, like I would need to be in this room and I went from my last thousand dollars and just like literally doing anything and making no money, to sitting down one night having dinner.

14:48

It was either the night before or the first night of shooting and it was a four or five day shoot. It was exhausting and they had like these old, fucking shitty high school chairs and they were super uncomfortable and we shot for 10 hours a day and I just took unbelievable number of notes and I'm having conversation with him and he's like your problem is your commodity. I'll never forget this. He goes your commodity, you're getting paid as a commodity. Do you wanna be luxury? You need to be luxury. And he's like the only way you're gonna be luxury is you have to create these packages and you create these packages and you stick to the price and you do not ever discount yourself, ever again.

15:28

And then, between day rate plus packages, I was banging 15 grand 25 times a year, right, yeah, it took me a couple of years to get there but, like, immediately it went from one grand Saturdays to five grand, to 7,500 to 10, right, and that was the thing that I had to learn and understand that the business is a business. It is not like your art has nothing to do with the business, because you know this as well as I do. There are horrible photographers who make $10 million a year. Yes, I know some of them. I love them. They're my friends. Like, I'm still in this industry even though I'm removed. I run a company. Everyone in the industry knows I'm business partners in it, right. But that said, like, if you can get to this place where you can just shift the way that you believe that your value is in the marketplace, you will make money or you will keep being poor. It's really up to you.

16:28 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

Yes, can we talk about that just a little bit for someone that's? I'm just picturing someone listening going like, okay, is it as simple as just raising my prices?

16:37 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yes, and here's how I look at it. What would I pay for, knowing the effort that I and the quality of a photographer that I am, that was the question I started asking myself. And that's the same thing now, like you know, fast forward quite a long time from having a studio and now being one of the biggest coaches in the entire country and mental health, really the world it's. I made a decision and that's not me being egoic, that's just back like it just is. That was within the scope of a decision of I'm never going to underprice what I believe I'm worth and so, like it was at the beginning I didn't know that that was a question to ask. I'm just like on Groupon, like that guy's $75, cool, I'll do 50. Like not understanding. I'm like I just need to make money. So there's the hustler side of it. Right, where you like, get out here and make money respect, do that and it helps because you get contracts, you get contacts and you get community and you get people who refer you and there's a grind to that. But you know that grind. If you're three years into this game, you don't have a business, you have a hobby and you need to recognize that. And if you want to have the shift in it, you do have to ask yourself the question what am I worth? Because if you're telling yourself you're worth $50 an hour, that's what you're worth, but you don't get a complaint about making $50 an hour If you also stop charging by the hour. That's a whole other conversation we can have.

18:08

But it really is this mindset shift about your value in the world. Think about this for a second when we are young. You grew up in America. You grew up in most westernized, civilized states not that most places aren't civilized, but like in this concept, what are you taught? Literally out the gate, be humble, be quiet, sit in the back, don't shine, Get in line, raise your hand to go to the bathroom, go to lunch. When we tell you, get these grades, do this thing, show up this way. This is your life. We will help you make sure that you do the thing that we want you to do. Everything that you do in childhood is devalued. It's like I don't believe in being humble. I think it's nonsense. I think you should shine.

18:55

There's a Kanye West lyric early on in graduation. One of his songs says I'm a star. How could I not shine? He's like why are you taking that away from you? Because they told you that you don't matter when that ends up being reflective of how you negotiate your value and your worth in the marketplace. Because if all you've ever heard is stay in the back, be quiet, don't shine, yeah, you're going to charge 50 bucks If you can change that mindset and you're like man, I'm fucking good at this. I'm the best photographer in this city, the best photographer in this country. When I am on, nobody gets close to me. I'm worth $10,000 per day. That will start to happen.

19:35

The evolution in that also is you have to be willing to face rejection, because, out of all of those, here's a loose math and it's been a decade so I apologize, I don't remember. The loose math is I would have any given week, 20 couples come into my studio. I would book one of them. All I needed was 20 to make half a million dollars a year, or 400,000, or 200,000, or even 100,000. At the beginning it's like what do you need to do to get there? You have to figure out your sales process. You need your sales script. Your packages need to be correct. You need to have photos that are worthy of showing. You need to have art on the wall. You need to have sample books. You need to have testimonials. Video testimonials are especially incredible. You need to have people feel comfortable with you. You need to know how to talk to people. Soft skills matter. All of that stuff is in the equation, but predominant, over and foremost of all of that is you got to believe you're fucking worth it.

20:32 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

Yeah, I totally agree with that. And when you're selling to people, regardless of how good your script is or your photography for that matter, you have to have an authority. You have to have the ability to say I know what I'm doing and this is how it's going to work and this is what it costs. And that comes from valuing yourself. But I see people that go through my program that struggle with that one thing, like they have beautiful photos and they get the business. There's a few things that need to be tweaked, but there's this mindset piece that's like just front and center. I can see it and I wonder if there's a way in this conversation to identify the things that are showing up in people's lives if they have a mindset problem. In other words, I don't think some people realize that it's a mindset thing. They're like I have great photos, I've taken all the courses, what could it be? Is there a way to identify that within yourself if you are asking yourself those questions?

21:30 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Well, part of it is you have to recognize you're probably not good enough yet, and that's just the truth, and I use the word. Yet you have potential to be great because, look, $10,000 work begets $10,000 work. You have to be good, and the market. Here's the thing too. This is a really difficult part of the conversation People don't want to hear when it comes to their dreams. The marketplace is going to decide if you're good or not. It's just the reality of it. And also, on the other note, it's like be so good, they can't ignore you. That's what I did. Right, look at me. I'm six foot four, 220. I'm the size of a fucking linebacker. I'm covered in tattoos. I say fuck every other word. I got a gold nose ring in my face. I built a multiple six figure wedding business in Indiana Okay, not in Portland, not in Seattle, not in, you know, new York City, not in Atlanta, not in my Indiana in the 2007, 2010, 2015. Yeah Right, because I believed I could. That's what it is.

22:36

It is a game of belief. You have to create a frame of reference in your life that allows your beliefs to lead you down a path of success. That's it. And people talk about mindset, but you know, one of the things that people do very poorly is they define mindset, and this is how I teach my clients. This mindset is very simple what you think becomes what you speak, what you speak become your actions and your actions become your reality. And so if in your mind, you're like I'm doing all the courses, I went to this thing, but I listen to the podcast, but like you're looking for outs, you're looking for excuses and, worse, you're probably playing a victim, which is a very dangerous game, because you're like it's not my fault, I tried everything. And now you have to add in some radical accountability, because the reality is, if your business sucks, it's your fault, it's not the market's fault, it's not, you know, the course instructor's fault, it's not anyone's fault except yours. You are the cause and the solution of all your problems. And if you stop seeking escape, go and instead come to terms that there's something that you're blocking yourself from, you'll be able to find success.

23:52

There's two things I do every single day. The second that I wake up, one, I put my feet on the ground and I say this aloud I am in control of my life. Because I need that. Like I grew up in chaos. I mean, I was a drug addict when I was 12. I blew a million bucks when I was 25. Like, I've always been out of control. I can get out of control that fast. I can destroy everything I've built in a moment. Trust me, I know how I've done it, and so I remind myself every single first thing. I am in control of my life. And then the next thing I do is I ask myself a question how am I interfering with my success? Because if you could answer that question honestly, then you'll start to be able to track and understand why you're stuck. Most people blame everything else in the environment except the person who's in control of what's happening.

24:49 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

It's so powerful.

24:50 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

A lot of it is. Building confidence only comes through doing incredibly uncomfortable things consistently. And if you haven't started offering $5,000 packages, you're never going to offer $5,000 packages. If you haven't started asking for $750 an hour, you're not going to get $750 an hour. And most people are like but I'm going to lose a client. So one great client is 10 shitty clients. I promise you that.

25:20 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

That's right. I have a post it on my computer and it came from a podcast that I did not too long ago and it just says just ask. Because that keeps coming up, it's 90% of it and I was like that's just a good one to be reminded of that. Like you said, like if you're not going to ask, you're probably never going to ask, so you have to go for it.

25:39 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

So there's a really interesting study. I cannot think of it off the top of my head, I apologize. I will find it. I believe it was done by Franklin Covey Institute and they found that on average sales calls we did this when I worked for this fortune 10 company because I was in the sales department and I found that on average sales calls, sales people do not ask for the sell. 86% of the time at a sales organization. They don't ask for the sell 86% of time. Imagine what you're doing. You're not asking. That's almost 100% of the problem. I like I go, and here's the thing too. I'll teach you a little sales trick. You sit down and you go which package would you like? And then you shut up.

26:29 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

And then you shut up. That's the good part.

26:31 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

And then it gets real awkward and you sit in it and you sit and you don't say a word, and then they go. Well, I have to think about it and then I go. Have I not given you enough information to make a decision? And if they go, no, you go, well, then why are you stuck? And then they go. Well, you know we're we're weighing other options and I go. I'm going to tell you this right now. By the time you walk out of this door, someone else is taking your spot. So if you want to work with me, now's the time you need to make a decision. Do you want to use the Sermaster card?

27:03 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

Yeah, that's what I was talking about earlier with the like authority piece. First of all, that being quiet piece is a part of it, like you really just have to let people work stuff out and come to you with their questions and not fill that space with like awkward, like well, and you could also, we could do this, you know, because that throws off your whole game and the whole presentation of trying to sell to somebody. But that authority piece is part of it is having confidence to be able to do what you just said.

27:28 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, and the confidence too is like are you willing to walk away from the cell? I'm not badgering you, I'm not pestering Cause. Then I'm going to be like at your wedding and you're, or at your quinceanera or at your like event, and the whole time you're going to feel that right, that weird icky now I've never pressured anybody to a sale. It's like do you want to work with me or not? This isn't rocket science. If the answer is no, have a great day. I hope you find the right person. And I've had people. I've lost business because people will come to me or used to, would come to me with a shot list and be like we want to do all this. I'm like I'm not going to do any of that. Literally, I just point blank I'm not going to do any of that. Did you see any of that on my website? No, exactly, I don't do that.

28:16 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

When I shot weddings I was very strict about the shot list thing too. I said, please give it to somebody that knows all these people and I'm happy to shoot whatever comes up. But I'm not going to be trying to shoot and looking at a list at the same time, which a lot of people don't like. But I found it to be so much easier when, like the sister of the bride, would just read off names and gather people for me and then I didn't have to like do any sort of extra work.

28:39 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

Yeah, I mean that's a part of it and like, here's a fun trick you can do when it comes to family photo time make your assistant do it and then you go do all the fun shit with the couple. That's my role.

28:50 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

Yeah, that's for sure. I mean, I don't think there's anyone that loves that part of the wedding day, so, but it's a great way to get experience. So if you're getting into weddings, you know you're probably going to, as a second shooter, be doing some of that for your lead, and that's fine. It's fine, it'll be great, you'll learn a lot, yeah.

29:07 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

And the other thing is, here's something I want you to think about as well. Like I love talking about sales, I could do this all day. Put your consumer hat on for a second, all right. So you're in the mall, right, and let's say you make 400 grand a year. You're a lawyer, right, and your wife, or whatever their doctor and household income 750,. You're in the top 1%. You guys are crushing right. Are you shopping at HMM or are you shopping at Louis Vuitton?

29:41 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

Well, I would imagine not, HMM.

29:43 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

I would imagine not either, unless you really just love it, which is probably a thing too. And so when people who have money are in the marketplace for anything, they're looking for two things to happen. One, they're looking for a simplified process. They do not want the stress, they don't want to deal with it. Here's the check do your job. Two, they're looking for an expert who is so good that all they have to do is show up and know that it's taken care of. You charge somebody $1,000, they're gonna be on your ass the whole time. How do I know this, Cause I did a lot of those. You charge somebody 15 grand, 20 grand. There's 30 grand in with you, even eight grand in with you, which is a significant amount of money. They're gonna let you do your thing. It is such a better working environment. And so it's also like looking at it from the aspect of people have been lied to and told that consumers do not have money. That's not true. People have tons of money. I know many, many, many millionaires. I know a couple billionaires, even Personally. I know these people. They're on my phone. I can call them right now.

30:55

I've made multiple six figures in the wedding industry in a single year I've been able to watch the evolution happen in real time, when I changed my mindset about who does and who does not have money and everyone's not your client, but also you have to recognize. So there's this concept that I think about a lot, where it's like look good, feel good, right. And so imagine for a second I come into your studio and your studio is at a co-working space and the co-working space is full of all these tech bros and it smells like kombucha and like it's loud and like I'm being serious, Like do you expect me to pay you $10,000? No, no, right. You come into my studio and there's a beautiful leather couch and we have a bookshelf and it smells of rich mahogany and like there's candles lit and we have my art that I've shot over the years on the wall and on the table there's 15 wedding albums covered in the most beautiful luxurious Italian handcrafted hand-sewn leather, and I have a bottle of wine on the table and there's Perrier and it's lit just right, and you feel like you are walking into a luxury experience. You're probably not gonna think twice about spending 10 grand, and so part of the problem and the reason why people aren't charging their worth is because their environment isn't reflective of that.

32:26

Now, I'm not saying take it till you make it, put yourself in debt. That's not a smart decision. I went down that path. It's dumb. I don't recommend it.

32:34

But what I am saying is like, how do you use the resources that you have at hand to build an experience for people? And that's whether you're doing commercial work, portrait work, pet photography, like whatever the part of the thing about look good, feel good. It's like when I walk into a room and I'm with millionaires and billionaires and I'm getting ready to speak on stage in front of them because of the career that I have today, it's like you best believe I got on my special edition Jordans and my $300 jeans I always wear the same T-shirt, you've seen this but like I got on my $5,000 watch because I feel the power and the energy of being in that. But it wasn't always like that. It was like I'm borrowing money from my girlfriend to pay the rent and it's like you have to be honest about where you're at. You can't charge people what you think you're worth until you're putting yourself in an environment of what you think you're worth.

33:30 - Michael Anthony (Guest)

Yeah, that makes perfect sense and I think a lot of this goes back to that mindset stuff. But I'm also, before we wrap up, I'm interested, very interested in the work you're doing right now, coaching people that have been through childhood trauma. And I have a guess that sometimes I'm not saying all of the folks I work with, but that sometimes when people are stuck, that they may not be working through something that is keeping them a little bit stuck that they don't even realize is there. And that brings me to sort of the work you do now and I just thought maybe you could speak a little bit about how that might play into business blocks and being stuck, yeah, entirely.

34:04 - Natalie Jennings (Host)

I mean, look, we're the sum total of all of our experiences. Everything that's ever happened in our life leads us to this moment. So, like, imagine that let's play game real quick. You're in third grade and you're in Miss Smith's class and it's coloring day and it's your favorite day. You're like, I fucking love coloring day. Right and on your desk is a house you know outline and there's a puppy in the sun and grass and a car You're supposed to color. You get in there and you start coloring and you're creating and you're doing this thing and you make the sun purple and Miss Smith comes up to you and she goes the sun's not purple, silly, and it's so innocent so it doesn't even register to her. But the class laughs at you. They hear you, they hear it, they go dummy, the sun's not purple. Everybody knows that.