Hello, human collective.

Welcome to the Upside to Grief.

My name is Story and I am your host.

And my name is Erica and I am your co host.

Welcome to the bonus chapter.

We have an amazing woman with us.

Who is she?

Story, My mom.

Welcoming back Jo.

You may have seen her on a previous chapter that we did.

Chapter seven.

Yes, yes.

And we are making a bonus chapter because life be lifein.

And so we want something in the backlogs.

So this is it.

And Mama Jo just happens to be in town visiting.

So we were like, hey girl, do you want to talk about grief?

I was like, I would.

Wouldn't want to do anything else.

That's what I came here for.

California.

I come for grief.

I'm going to cross that off my list to do list.

Yes.

Grief in California, grief in other states.

Just a bucket list of grief in various states.

We've got Colorado.

We recorded her chapter in Colorado.

Yeah.

And I will be recording in Minnesota at her house.

I won't be recording her at her house, but I will be recording there.

But could you.

But I was just gonna say, but she thinks she's not recording me.

Rubbing my hands together evilly.

That'll be actually kind of cool.

So.

Nudge, nudge.

So yeah.

So today we're gonna talk about.

How.

To honor your loved ones with more love than pain.

Yes, we are.

How do you do that?

What do you do?

What does that look like?

What does that mean?

What made you think of that in particular?

What made me think of that in particular?

I have an answer.

Yeah?

Well, I was wondering about it because it's very succinct and very specific.

What made me think about it is it was something on social media that I had seen.

I know it goes into also like different cultures, like believe this type of thing as well, but I had seen it on some kind of social media thing.

And I don't remember exactly what was said at this point, but I know that's what it stems from.

And what it said was that a person has two deaths and the first one is when they die and the second one is the last time that somebody says their name.

And that's what that stems from because I feel like talking about your people talking about grief, talking about death, talking about dying, all of those types of things.

Like that keeps memories alive, people alive.

It helps you learn how to talk about.

These topics in a more positive way so that when we do share about our person, it's not like, ooh or, or heavy topic or now everybody needs to be sad or you Bring up somebody dying and then everybody looks at you with a sad face in the room and it's like, we don't need to do that.

Like, I can bring up my person and you could smile and laugh and that would feel great.

Yeah.

And so I think that that's what that stems from.

So, you know, the person's second death is the last time that somebody says their name.

And I really like that.

Yeah, I do, too.

And I think about, as you were saying, that kind of.

How.

That kind of stages of grief.

Right.

Like for when you get to a stage where you can really talk about your human.

Without choking back tears and wiping away gobs of snot and, you know, having to choke through those words.

Right.

That when you can talk about them and laugh about memories and giggle about things that you may have done or said with that human.

Right.

That.

That's.

That.

That's a different kind of stage of grief in your journey.

Absolutely.

You don't just.

You do not start in that stage.

Oh, gosh, no.

For sure.

When you were saying that, it actually reminded me of.

And I don't know if I've shared this before, but because I live in California here, and all my family lives in Minnesota, and my husband and I lived out here.

After he passed, I.

Started hanging out with a new community.

And so pretty much.

98% of the people that I know in California don't know my husband.

And so in the beginning of my grief, I didn't hear other people talk about him because they didn't know him.

So they didn't necessarily just bring him up.

Now I have people in my life that don't know him that will bring him up.

Yeah, but, like, obviously, like, that was.

It took work and talking and processing and all that.

Right.

But I remember one of the times that you came down to visit me and she was telling me this story about.

A plant.

Did I tell you about this?

Do you remember the story?

Do you want to tell it?

I remember the story.

You can tell it.

So.

And yeah, so we were.

We were like.

We had just went to the swap meet.

We were doing some shopping, and I think we were going to Ross or something.

We were going into Ross.

It was sunny out.

I remember it was nice out.

We were taking cute selfies.

We were having a good time.

In the car.

Yeah, outside of the car.

The whole thing.

I remember the day.

And then we were in the parking lot and then.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, the back story to this story is that for Mother's Day one year.

Story, Justin her brother and Ken had gotten all these little gifts.

And we had, like, this day.

We started it down at their work, and I got to see all of them, and Ken was working and Justin and Story weren't.

And we kind of went and ate, and they gave me part of the Mother's Day gift.

But Ken wanted part of the gift to be able to give to me when he got off work and came home.

And the part that he kept to give to me was a plant.

It's really hot in Minnesota in the summer.

It was hot.

I mean, Mother's Day is in May.

It's either hot.

It's either really hot on Mother's Day, or it's fucking snowing.

Because it's Minnesota.

Yep, one or the other.

And that day, it happened to be really hot.

Like, it.

It was really sunny.

It was really hot out.

And so the plant had sat in the vehicle in the heat.

Oh, gosh, for hours.

And so when he got home and brought it back to me, he was really upset that part of the plant had, like, died.

And I still have that plant.

It's not.

Grown anymore, but it's not died anymore.

Like, I had to cut off the dead parts of it.

But.

But this was a while ago.

Maybe like, 2018.

I want to say it was like 2018.

Yeah, 18 or 17.

One of those two years.

Anyways, that.

That.

It's the little plant that could.

And it's, like, continued to struggle along.

But we were riding in the car when we pulled into the parking lot.

It was before we went into Ross.

We were getting.

We were.

Because we were buying plants and pots and stuff.

I think that's how the.

The conversation came up.

Yeah.

And I was like, yeah.

You know, I'm at the house and the plant, right.

And I just go, ken, damn it.

Can you, like, do.

Do some magic with the plant?

Would you?

Like, what's going on?

And then, you know, I'm like.

Then I look over at her, and she was crying.

Cause I was talking about him.

And I was like, oh, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

Like, I didn't wanna, like, you know, upset you and like, what's going on?

Are you okay?

And she was just like, nobody ever talks about him besides me.

And so it was just.

You were startled.

I didn't.

I didn't.

Yeah, I just didn't.

I wasn't expecting somebody else to say things to me about him.

And then I was like.

And it was like this great story.

And, like, I love that.

I love it so much.

But in that moment, I was like.

Like, I feel like I stopped breathing in that moment because I was like, oh, yeah.

I love that so much.

Wow.

Sorry.

I'm, like, letting that sink in a little bit because, yeah, that's a.

It's like a fear of mine.

Like, nobody talking about my dad.

I just.

The other day, one of his old army buddies tagged me in a Facebook post that he made.

Like, not even just, like, you know, he saw somebody else posted and tagged me and said, hey, this made me think of you.

Like, no.

He made a Facebook post specifically to me of an ornament that my dad had given him for Christmas, like, years ago.

Like, a really long time ago.

It was like a Green Bay Packer little squirrel ornament thing.

I guess they have, like, a.

This friend has a tree dedicated to sports.

So, yeah, he tagged me in the post and said, erica, your dad gave me this years ago.

It goes on the back of our tree because he knows I hate the packers.

But I still put it up every year to honor him.

It goes on the back of the tree.

It goes on the back of the tree.

But I just thought, like, it surprised me, like, seeing his name change tag me in a post.

And, like, when I opened it up, I was like, oh, my gosh.

Like, I cried, and then I laughed, and then I cried, and I was just like, that makes me so happy that, like.

Cause sometimes it feels like I'm the only one who has, like, my dad in mind.

Yeah.

Even though he has family and, you know, my mom and my brothers, but just sometimes it just feels like it's just me.

But, yeah, that was really cool.

And then there's another friend of his from high school who will send me things sometimes, or, like, their high school pictures if he ever brings out the yearbook.

They were on the swim team together, which is funny.

Just seeing my dad in a tiny little swimsuit, all like, a little.

Yeah.

And just young.

So he's like a stick figure and.

Because my dad was a big guy.

So.

Yeah, it was just.

Yeah, that's just so.

Just so interesting.

Probably felt really isolating, just not hearing anybody talk about him, because that's kind of how it feels for me sometimes, too.

And.

Yeah, it feels good when somebody else does.

Yeah.

I love it now.

It was an adjustment, you know, but now I love it.

I love when people bring him up.

I'm like, oh, hey, somebody else is bringing him up first.

Great.

Yep.

You know, the plant is now named Ken.

I think about that.

I still have my brother's phone Number and my phone.

And so I.

Right after he died.

A couple of months after or something, it was like something popped up on.

I think it might have been Snapchat.

And it was like, oh, one of your contacts just joined Snapchat?

And it was like, leroy?

And I was like, what?

What the fuck?

Like, he didn't.

You know, and my brain.

My brain instantly went to like, somebody stole his identity.

And I was like, super upset.

And I called my mom and I was crying.

And then I talked to my sister about it, who tends to be the voice of reason, and she was like, well, somebody else probably has that phone number now.

And I was like, yeah, that.

That makes sense.

And initially I was going to delete it, but I don't.

I still have his number in my phone.

And now when I see it pop up, I'm like, TikTok.

And they're like, for somebody you may know, and it's Leroy Tazewitz has got this random picture that looks the opposite of him.

It just kind of makes me chuckle and I just, you know, go past it.

But initially it was really shocking.

It was a shock to my system when it.

When it popped up.

I think I've shared it on here before, but my dad is still in my top pins in my contacts, and I message him a lot.

So I'm just waiting for the day that I don't know if I don't think my mom has disconnected his number yet.

I think we're probably still paying for it on our plan or their plan.

So I'm just waiting for the day that somebody's like, wrong number.

And I'm just going to reply like, nope, it's not.

So you're just going to.

It's not.

You're just the wrong human.

Yeah, you have the wrong number, sir.

Like, change your number.

Like, this is my dad's number.

Give me this number back right now.

Yeah.

When you first.

Said that topic, the how do we honor our loved ones or the person that we lost with more love than pain?

I think about how it's kind of sort of rooted in what we were talking about a little bit about.

People.

Just associating, like, just staying in, like a really low.

Grieving.

I don't know if low is the right word, but like a negative emotion grieving space, like, where everything that may or may not remind you of your person causes you to have, like a breakdown and actually scares people away or something.

Because I feel like I've known some people who maybe something does remind them of their person and Then they start having, like, an emotional reaction and they stop themselves and they don't want it to continue and they apologize.

And then it just.

She's raising her hand, by the way.

Yeah, chose cough, cough.

But I feel like.

When we.

When we do that, that's what that quote is, remembering them with more pain.

And.

For me, it was like that for a minute because, like, I was just like, okay, yeah, I'm going to cry over everything because, like, I miss them and I love them.

But I definitely, like, let myself feel that.

I was like, yes, I'm going to cry, and I'm going to cry all the time.

I'm going to cry so hard.

I'm going to cry so hard.

You're just watch me cry.

Deal with it.

If you're not watching this on YouTube and you're listening, please go to YouTube and just watch that little part where she said, watch me cry.

Because it was great.

But really, though, like, witness me in all of my pain, because this is what I need you to do.

But, yeah, I know some people get stuck there and then they don't want to.

They don't want that.

So then they just never talk about their person again.

And then it goes with the second half of what you were saying.

This prompt came from about.

Two deaths.

One when there's the physical death, and the second is when the last person says their name.

If we stop saying their name, then they die real quick.

And for me, I want to keep talking about my dad and even my niece, I shared this already, but my niece, she's not going to have any memories of my dad whatsoever, but she's going to know him as Grandpa Hawk.

And every time she sees a hawk, she's going to think of Grandpa, and we'll probably show her pictures of them together.

And yeah, I just think that that is.

Is pretty cool because who knows how long that will last.

She'll probably tell a story or two when she's older and say, like, my parents and my family always showed me pictures of my grandpa.

I don't remember him, but he died when I was a couple years old and I have these pictures, but I don't remember anything.

And that's probably the story that she'll share and say his name.

But.

Even though she may not remember memories with him, she'll remember us.

Like, those are going to be core memories for her.

You talking about them about him and bringing you bringing him and keeping him at the table with all of you.

Yeah, because I. I have memories like that for sure, with Just a couple people.

Like my great grandma and my grandma.

They died when I was really young, so.

I still.

I still talk about them because I definitely want to keep them alive, too, and.

Yeah.

Remembering them with more love.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Was there a situation that really stood out for you when you were thinking about this?

Like, besides, like, having it kind of imprint on you when you were seeing it on whatever social media that you were seeing it on?

Like.

Like, what's your take?

What's my take on that?

The prompt?

I mean.

I don't know.

I just think there's truth in that, and I want to.

I would think after you.

I think once you're able to get to that point where you're able to not be upset every time there's something that reminds you.

You know what I mean?

Then just really, like, embracing that because, you know, I say, a year and a half ago, I couldn't have done that, you know, Now.

Yeah, but.

And just, like, living it and speaking it and making it a part of the community, like, how I had kind of said before that now people that don't know who Ken is bring Ken up to me.

Like, that's fucking huge.

Like, you know, like, it's not very often that people start talking about people they don't fucking know, you know, so just really, like, trying to keep that momentum alive and sharing it with other people and whatnot, because it feels good once you get there, you know?

So, like, just being able to share that with other people so that they can also experience that at some point in their grief journey when they're ready, you know, that this is, like, a possibility of it.

Well, and part of your journey was this podcast.

Yours and Ken's baby.

Right.

That keeps.

That speaks him into existence all the time, along with your dad.

I was just about to say your brother.

All of it.

It's on the Internet now.

It's forever.

It is forever.

It's forever.

Show them podcasts.

When I die.

Yeah.

It'S on the Internet forever now.

I'm never gonna die.

But, yeah, so I had.

I had said something to Roseanne the other day.

We were texting back and forth.

Like, I don't know.

We're just, like, telling each other, like, I love you, I miss you type of thing.

And I don't know how it got onto that subject.

But then we were talking about death, and.

I love you, I miss you.

Things about people dying or something of that nature.

And maybe we were talking about, like.

The.

When we were talking about having things of.

I think we Were talking about, like, those habits.

I think we were talking about the podcast that we had recorded about, like, having things for people that you care about in case they die type of situation.

I think that's the topic that we were on.

And I had said to her, I was like, when you die, I will say your name until the day that I die.

Like, know that.

And I mean that.

You know what I mean?

And I think, like.

I think that's a cool space to be in and to live in and to, you know.

Yeah.

And I think that Roseanne lives that pretty much daily with her posts with her dad.

Oh, absolutely.

You know, when I first met her.

One of the first things that I learned about her grief journey and about her dad was when the holidays were coming up, is that they got a cardboard cut out of her dad so that he could sit at the table.

And so we were at FIT camp, and she was like, look at what I got.

And then she showed me in my head.

I was like, I fucking love her.

Does she still do that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the.

The cutout is at her mom's house.

But she was telling me, too.

She's like, mom says bye every time.

Lets him know, like, I'm gonna go do this.

And then comes back and tells them all the things that she did.

And he sits at the dinner table for holidays.

And it's great.

She's so funny.

They have pillows of him and like.

Yeah, it's awesome.

Yeah, I love it very much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's like a.

What is the word?

I'm looking for it.

It's just a great example of living or, like, remembering your loved ones with love.

Yeah, I was gonna say legacy.

Like.

You'Re live.

You don't have to just have, like, a living legacy.

Like, you can have a legacy after you die, too.

And because, like, the.

The littles.

You know, they're gonna remember.

Like, I never knew my grandpa, but his cardboard.

Like, there was always a picture of my grandpa at the table with us.

Like, you know something?

All of the stories that they hear, like, in.

We can build memories in a lot of way without the actual person being there.

You know, our brains.

Yeah.

I was listening to something the other day about how we can.

Exactly what you just said.

How we can build new memories with our loved ones even though they're not here anymore.

And sometimes it's as simple as having, like, those little snippets of memories come up that we didn't even know that we had until, you know, that person passes and Then we'll be like, oh, yeah, we did that.

And we, like, cherish those memories a little bit more, but then even further and thinking, like, yeah, I'm going to make new memories with that person.

Like, her family is probably going to grow up, like, visiting his grave and doing what her and her mom do, like, as a ritual.

And I think that that's amazing.

Like, that's going to be really cool.

My whole family, when they are here, they visit my dad's grave.

I've never been there with them when they visited, but, like, that means something.

That means something for sure.

And.

Yeah, I know some of them.

Probably don't think of it as a happy memory, but, like, I am on the outside seeing that that's a happy memory for me, knowing that my dad's being visited.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When you say that, it's.

I've never thought about it that way.

Like, Right.

Creating new memories even though they've passed.

But, like, when I think about the different times that I will dump Ken's ashes.

Right.

Like, there's.

There's been people there on multiple occasions.

I think only one time I did it by myself at the ocean.

The first time.

The first time I did it alone.

The second time I did it with you.

And then.

The third time I did it when I shared the trip to San Francisco with James and Leslie there.

And I had just met them that week.

And that was beautiful memory.

You know what I mean?

Like, they're.

And they have memories of them now.

That's what I'm saying.

Now, thinking about it that way.

Like, now they have a memory with Kim.

With him.

Yeah.

And so.

And then also, too, I think the one that I think is so fun is, though, with just the show, Justin at the show.

And I shared it, I think, in Sherry's moments of knowing at the end of it is when I shared that story when I had the festival.

Yeah, yeah.

And the.

Yeah.

But it's funny, you know what I mean?

Like, it's a new memory, dude.

Like, I think Ken's ashes are all over us.

And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry.

He's like, no, no, no, Ken's cool.

I love Ken.

And I was like, okay, great.

So just.

So, yeah, it really does turn into that, you know.

Being a part of and other people being a part of and creating new things.

And, you know, it's just, how do we.

I just want to share it with people, you know?

Right.

How do you know these things are possible if you don't?

I Guess figure it out on your own or hear it from others or, you know.

Yeah.

It made me start thinking about mortality, too.

I had.

There was somebody that I knew who feared her own death so badly that she.

I don't know, it was, like, torturous for her.

And to me, hearing these stories, it's kind of comforting knowing that with the community that we are cultivating and the lives that we've touched with our loved ones, like, not being here, it's.

For me, it just feels a little bit more comforting.

Like, I'm definitely going to have.

I'm not at the point in human attachment processing yet where I'm not scared of death, but I definitely have become a lot more comfortable with, like, the concept of mortality based on my own spiritual beliefs.

But.

I don't know, I just feel like that is a little.

It kind of adds, like, this little cushion around it, knowing that people are gonna.

People are gonna remember me because I. I know that I've made a positive impact on people, and I've surrounded myself with the type of people who will talk about me.

Yeah.

And miss me.

Yeah.

And you're on the Internet, and that's forever.

Yeah.

Because I was just thinking about my dad, too.

Like, we.

My dad made an impact on people.

I have so many cool stories of him just doing random acts of kindness for strangers or.

Just people remembering him, like, being a regular customer at a certain store and just knowing who my dad was.

I remember we went to a restaurant shortly after he passed.

It was with my family, and we were going out to breakfast for the first time without him, without my dad.

And we went to the restaurant and we told the owner.

Well, actually, it was the waitress first.

And we told her, and she knew who my dad was, and so she grabbed the owner.

And he didn't know my dad by name, but he knew his face.

And so we showed him a picture, and he was like, oh, my gosh.

And he, like, knew right away.

And.

Yeah, just.

He said some really nice things about my dad and, you know, like, the condolences and everything.

And it was just really special.

Yeah.

Little things like that.

Our mail lady gave us flowers because my dad.

My dad was retired, so he was the type where he heard the mail truck coming out and he would come.

Out of his house, have a conversation.

Yeah.

But she was always so gracious, and she loved that about him.

She was like, I always knew I'd, you know, be caught up there for a couple minutes, like.

But, yeah, it was really.

It was really nice.

I know that she's never gonna forget that.

Those moments.

Yeah, she's never gonna forget giving our family flowers.

When she heard, like when she started seeing him not come out.

I remember she asked like, she went up to the door and asked like, hey, is everything okay?

And.

Like, she was just a good.

A good person anyways.

And then I remember I wanted to thank her for her kindness.

And I pulled up to my parents house at the very exact moment that she was delivering mail and I spoke to her and she was like, I'm so glad that you told that to me because this is my last day on this route.

Always, once, always once.

But it was her last day on that route with my dad's house.

And like, I got to say thank you to her and.

Little serendipitous.

Yeah, super serendipitous.

Just.

But yeah, it was a beautiful little human moment.

Yeah.

I feel like.

I mean, I can't say for sure what her life looks like, but I feel like if I remember, I remember the people like that who touched my life like that.

So it stays with you.

Yeah, yeah.

And I feel like that's how we can.

Honor them in our lives today, with love and reverence instead of like shying away from the pain that's in the back seat.

Yeah.

But I mean, I think even.

When you're in that stage of it being painful, there's still a love there.

Right.

Yeah, obviously.

Yeah, I think, yeah, there's still that like love there.

Right.

But that it very much reminds me of like that.

That transition period that I experienced, which.

Where it was like.

Where you want to hang on to your extreme sadness and the extreme pain because you get into a space.

I got into a space.

I'm sorry, I'm speaking for myself, that I felt like that was all I had that connected me to them.

Right.

So you hold.

If you let go of your pain, you're letting go of that thread, that.

That'S such a big thing.

But I had no idea what was going to be next after I let go of that pain.

The pain is still very much there.

There are things that catch me off guard.

I still have those moments.

I still grief in the wild is in my life.

Those things still happen, but it's.

I think they always happen.

Yeah, it will always happen.

But there's a shift in, I guess the weight scale of pain and love for me.

Yeah, it's still painful as fuck.

But before it was just pain.

Yeah, it was just pain and anger and confusion and sadness and there was not a lot of happiness.

In there?

Yeah.

There was no happiness for a while.

None of that.

Like, I couldn't get any of that, you know?

And now, like, shifting my perspective and my outlook and.

Just talking about it and all of that, it's allowed there to be happy moments, moments of joys making new memories, other people talking about your person.

But that can only happen when you open up.

If you open up, you can't have space for that to come in.

If everything inside of you is filled with pain, y.

You do.

It's the.

You're more powerful and you're letting go than holding on.

You let go of some of the pain.

You don't got to let go of all of it.

Yeah, I was kind of like thinking about that as you were talking earlier, Erica, when you were talking about how some people kind of get stuck in that and they want.

Then they don't.

It's so painful that then they don't even speak their name anymore.

Like, and they're just stuck in.

In there and that pain and don't move out of that area.

And, you know, I think a lot of times some humans can really feel like, if I don't feel this way, then I'm not.

I'll forget them.

I'm not connected to them anymore.

Like, how will I know?

You know what I mean?

Like.

Or they feel guilty.

Yes.

Yep.

There's just so much around that I gotta hang out of the pain because that really shows that I loved them.

And I don't want anybody to ever think that I don't and that they weren't my world or all of those things, that it can make it really hard to let go of that.

Yeah.

I just wish our culture, like, really taught us how to grieve and do it and do it in a beautiful way, because.

It is a.

You know, from everything that I've read, listened to, talked to people about, like, that's such a super common occurrence where, like, we either soak up that identity, that pain, identity so much.

Where, like, we ourselves feel like we are not who we are anymore without that.

Or the guilt part.

Like, if we don't feel this pain in this really almost like, detrimental way, if we're talking the extremes, then that means I never love them, then that means that I'm letting them go, then that means that I'm forgetting them when that's the first, that's just the furthest thing from the truth.

And like you were saying, then if that's all that you hold onto, then there's no space for anything else.

Yep.

I felt like that for a while too.

Just.

If I'm not sad or angry, like, I could still do all the other things that I usually talk about, like experiencing with my grief journey.

But I did hold on to that for a while.

Like where if I don't feel this extreme.

Sadness or pain, I even took it to like a more selfish and self centered version too where like I'm gonna forget what grief is and grief has been my identity now, so I'm just, I'm gonna forget.

So if I don't make myself feel like the worst.

Yeah.

Because of my grief, then I'm just, I'm not experiencing grief for what it is.

And I actually thought that grief was that, only.

Yeah, it wasn't.

You're not doing it right if you're smiling.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And makes me think about people who have lost.

Their spouses or partners and then start dating immediately.

Especially as women.

I feel like in our culture that's judged a lot.

Like if you.

Especially as women, like let's say it's a female and you lose your partner and then you start dating, what.

What is the right time to start dating again where a woman is not judged?

I. I don't think never.

You're supposed to forever.

You're supposed to forever grieve and just.

Be this dress in black.

Too.

There's a part of that that, and I don't know for.

I can't speak for everybody, but I think with like loss of a partner and stuff like that, I think there is, there's.

That's a coping skill to immediately, like, it might not even be like, oh, okay, I'm like ready to be.

They're probably not ready to be in a relationship again.

But it's literally, you know, I feel like that would tie into those questionable grief decisions of like, you lose a spouse and then you immediately get into a relationship.

You're not actually.

Facing your grief or anything like that.

You're just.

And I think sometimes people can do that because there's this intense fear of being alone.

People are really afraid to be spending time with themselves.

Well, I remember hearing on one of the podcasts that I listened to, it changed my whole perspective on like the judgment that comes with that because it was somebody who had lost their partner and then they had gotten into a relationship with somebody very shortly after who also knew the deceased and.

They had the best relationship together because the person that this, that the bereaved started seeing understood that that person is grieving and that this person will always be the person who is lost will always be a part of their journey.

And their story and their love story was actually super freaking awesome.

And they, they like helped each other through the grief process.

And that person who they started seeing and ended up getting married to would always talk about the, the person who passed and they would still celebrate like the birthday and like honor the person.

And I feel like that was.

So there was space there for that.

Yeah, that's pretty cool.

Yeah, that is cool.

It just changed my perspective on things because like, we do have that judgment of like if, if you're dating somebody immediately after it's because you're lonely or you're not facing your grief or then.

Or another version of judgment is we.

You just lost that person.

Like you're really going to start dating.

Like, how can you lose somebody and you think that you love this new person?

Like, it just.

There's so many facets of like the human condition.

So I remember I was super judgy about a certain person in my life.

A similar situation happened and then I had to, I was processing about it at self help meetings and getting it out about like my real feelings, but then also staying in the solution about like they get to do what they want.

Like this is their, their own grief process and maybe this will help them.

Maybe they do just need this right now.

Maybe they are lonely.

So who cares?

Like.

And yeah, it was a whole thing, but I feel like I was also.

It's about my dad.

I'm trying not to go into too much detail, but it also took me back a couple steps and I was like, what would my dad want?

And that just opened a whole nother door of like freedom and love and not judging.

Yeah.

I also think that we do, we don't know what's going on prior to somebody getting sick or prior to somebody passing away or, you know what I mean?

Like.

Maybe they were already headed for a divorce and this person dies in a terrible car crash or.

And then people are judging and you know what I mean?

Like, we don't have any idea what's going on behind closed doors in people's homes or where they're at.

Or maybe they had that conversation, the.

Conversation with their human that was passing.

Like, but it's not public knowledge.

Right.

All of that.

There's so many variables.

Yeah, Yeah, I think that's a, that's a huge one.

Like we don't know.

I know Jim and I had that conversation about like if one of us were to pass, like, you know, basically giving the other like the.

Okay.

Like, it's going to be okay.

And Jim is very.

He basically is like, oh, I'm going before you, so you're going to be okay.

Like, you're going to be fine.

You're going to find some young guy and it's going to be great.

You're going to be the cougar.

And I'm like, that's right.

So we've jokingly had those conversations, but, like, also seriously, too.

So I'm a full advocate for that.

Having those conversations because while everybody's still living.

Yes.

And not sick, like, in the process of dying or anything like that.

Although it's probably good to do it then, too.

Yes.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Silence for processing.

I feel like they're.

There needs to be, like, little music during, like, the silence bits because I.

Think there's a happy birthday party.

Elevator music for processing.

Well, some of my.

My family members and friends know that, like, say we're on a phone call and I go silent.

They're like, are you processing?

Because I have, like, I need a processing moment to.

Yeah.

Think before reacting or just letting things sink in.

Yeah.

We talk about some heavy stuff.

You know how much nicer the world would be if everybody took that?

Everybody did that.

Yeah, that would be great.

Yeah.

Yeah, I do.

I do that too, though.

Yeah?

Yeah.

Like in.

In.

In real conversations, too.

Yeah.

Like.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you do that.

You actually, like, put your finger up too sometimes, and you're like, wait.

I think I'm learning to do that.

I learned it from my aunt.

The story is more complicated than this, but it came from her telling us the story of how my uncle proposed to her.

So they were at dinner and he proposed, and she said, let me think about it.

But she really needed to think about it.

She had to process.

And I just always remember that.

And again, the story is a lot more rounded than that, but I just always remembered that because I was like, yeah, like, that's a huge decision.

Yeah, it's a big decision.

And her.

It was definitely a yes, but she wanted before, like, blurting out yes.

She just wanted to be like, okay.

Like, set in my choice.

Yeah.

Let it settle inside your skin for a minute.

That sounds healthy to me, is what that sounds like.

It scared the shit out of my uncle, but.

Oh, I bet.

People are not used to people.

Yeah, right.

Like.

Saying or telling them what they need or want in that moment.

Wait, girl.

Yeah.

So funny.

Yeah.

That was a good topic.

Yeah.

Good.

Thank you for choosing it.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

Yeah, you betcha.

You betcha.

Wanna take us out?

Yes, I do.

Yeah.

So, again, I don't know when this is gonna air, but I hope you guys enjoy it.

Could be next week, could be next year.

As always, like, Follow Subscribe Please share with your friends and.

Thank you for sharing space with us.

And we will see you next week for a bonus segment.

We'll see you next week for the grief deck poll with all three of us.

I'm excited.

It.

Okay.

All right.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye, everybody.

Love you.